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889091
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Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:13 am

Once Covid-19 settles down and we learn more about it as time goes by, will the WHO lose its relevance at the global stage?

Australia is already calling for an independent inquiry:
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/fede ... 54l4l.html

Could countries breakaway from the WHO and form a separate entity? Seems like the logical step to do if they are so pi$$ed off at the WHO.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:29 am

World Health Organisations was set up by the United Nations back in 1945 so it would be up to the United Nations to decided what to do.
I would imagine they will want to conduct a full investigation, make internal changes if needed.
 
889091
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:38 am

Broken record, no?? Rewind the tape back 5 years....

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-34877787
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:11 pm

The question is, do you want some body who coordinates, provides healthcare in a number of regions, provides international standards etc. If so, World Health Organisation is a ready body. Does it does everything 100% good, no of course not. But the solution is not to create another organization to rival it. I think a WTO-type of an organization is very helpful. So yes, let them draw the lessons needed to be learned from this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
889091
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The question is, do you want some body who coordinates, provides healthcare in a number of regions, provides international standards etc. If so, World Health Organisation is a ready body. Does it does everything 100% good, no of course not. But the solution is not to create another organization to rival it. I think a WTO-type of an organization is very helpful. So yes, let them draw the lessons needed to be learned from this.



How long is a piece of string though? We are not dealing with something that has a monetary value to it - physical objects/real estate, etc can be replaced. But human lives cannot.

We've been here before:
https://time.com/3827810/who-ebola-cris ... e-failure/

Dubya once famously said, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

IMHO, once the immediate emergency is over, the WHO needs to be completely disbanded - house cleaned up from top to bottom and a restart from scratch is required.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:29 pm

889091 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The question is, do you want some body who coordinates, provides healthcare in a number of regions, provides international standards etc. If so, World Health Organisation is a ready body. Does it does everything 100% good, no of course not. But the solution is not to create another organization to rival it. I think a WTO-type of an organization is very helpful. So yes, let them draw the lessons needed to be learned from this.



How long is a piece of string though? We are not dealing with something that has a monetary value to it - physical objects/real estate, etc can be replaced. But human lives cannot.

We've been here before:
https://time.com/3827810/who-ebola-cris ... e-failure/

Dubya once famously said, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

IMHO, once the immediate emergency is over, the WHO needs to be completely disbanded - house cleaned up from top to bottom and a restart from scratch is required.


What do you think would go better if you did that? What would it solve? Do you think there should be an international body at all?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
889091
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
889091 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The question is, do you want some body who coordinates, provides healthcare in a number of regions, provides international standards etc. If so, World Health Organisation is a ready body. Does it does everything 100% good, no of course not. But the solution is not to create another organization to rival it. I think a WTO-type of an organization is very helpful. So yes, let them draw the lessons needed to be learned from this.



How long is a piece of string though? We are not dealing with something that has a monetary value to it - physical objects/real estate, etc can be replaced. But human lives cannot.

We've been here before:
https://time.com/3827810/who-ebola-cris ... e-failure/

Dubya once famously said, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

IMHO, once the immediate emergency is over, the WHO needs to be completely disbanded - house cleaned up from top to bottom and a restart from scratch is required.


What do you think would go better if you did that? What would it solve? Do you think there should be an international body at all?


I guess I can turn it around and ask you a similar question:

When Ebola broke out, and after it was contained, the WHO admitted mistakes were made. That's fine. We are humans and to err is human. They promised to address the issues which they identified after doing a RCA.

Then Covid-19 came around. Bang! Same mistakes again.

Who's (OK, no pun intended there :D ) to say that when Covid-xx happens, we will not be hearing the same story again? As I said earlier, we are not dealing with a loss of a car/airframe here. We are dealing with people's lives.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:05 pm

889091 wrote:
Then Covid-19 came around. Bang! Same mistakes again.

Who's (OK, no pun intended there :D ) to say that when Covid-xx happens, we will not be hearing the same story again? As I said earlier, we are not dealing with a loss of a car/airframe here. We are dealing with people's lives.


a. was it the same mistake? b. is the WHO to blame? c. would a new organization solve anything?

I am not smart enough to answer these questions without extensive research, but I guess you are smart enough to make these judgments from the outside.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
marcelh
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:06 pm

889091 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
889091 wrote:


How long is a piece of string though? We are not dealing with something that has a monetary value to it - physical objects/real estate, etc can be replaced. But human lives cannot.

We've been here before:
https://time.com/3827810/who-ebola-cris ... e-failure/

Dubya once famously said, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

IMHO, once the immediate emergency is over, the WHO needs to be completely disbanded - house cleaned up from top to bottom and a restart from scratch is required.


What do you think would go better if you did that? What would it solve? Do you think there should be an international body at all?


I guess I can turn it around and ask you a similar question:

When Ebola broke out, and after it was contained, the WHO admitted mistakes were made. That's fine. We are humans and to err is human. They promised to address the issues which they identified after doing a RCA.

Then Covid-19 came around. Bang! Same mistakes again.

Who's (OK, no pun intended there :D ) to say that when Covid-xx happens, we will not be hearing the same story again? As I said earlier, we are not dealing with a loss of a car/airframe here. We are dealing with people's lives.


Why don't you just answer the question? What is in your opinion a better and viable option?
 
889091
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:16 pm

marcelh wrote:
889091 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

What do you think would go better if you did that? What would it solve? Do you think there should be an international body at all?


I guess I can turn it around and ask you a similar question:

When Ebola broke out, and after it was contained, the WHO admitted mistakes were made. That's fine. We are humans and to err is human. They promised to address the issues which they identified after doing a RCA.

Then Covid-19 came around. Bang! Same mistakes again.

Who's (OK, no pun intended there :D ) to say that when Covid-xx happens, we will not be hearing the same story again? As I said earlier, we are not dealing with a loss of a car/airframe here. We are dealing with people's lives.


Why don't you just answer the question? What is in your opinion a better and viable option?


Global Oranisation representing issues relating to health and pandemics = Yes
Relying on the WHO as it stands right now? = No
Possible solutions:
a. Complete clean-out of the WHO. From top to bottom.
b. New global organisation created by the US (as they are the ones who seem to be the most vocal against the WHO now) which runs parallel to the WHO and works WITH the WHO. Countries are are welcome to join/contribute as they please. Sort of a new competitor to the WHO. If countries see that this new organisation is doing a better job, then they'll jump ship and the WHO as it is today will die a natural death.
Last edited by 889091 on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:16 pm

Not surprisingly usual suspects like Macron & Merkel were tripping over themselves to support failed WHO just to spite Trump.

BTW, this was back in 2017:

WHO's Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus has appointed Robert Mugabe as a goodwill ambassador.
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/21/afri ... index.html
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:21 pm

889091 wrote:
Dubya once famously said, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."
OK...I gotta ask: what's the reason to pose a question and start debate if you've already settled on an answer and everyone attempting to debate is shot down with what YOU think should happen?

889091 wrote:
Dubya once famously said, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

Uh...Dubya fumbled the saying. "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Olddog
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:28 pm

While the WHO has obviously a lot of flaws, creating an US agency to tell to the world what to do is just a pipe dream.
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Dutchy
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:41 pm

889091 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
889091 wrote:

I guess I can turn it around and ask you a similar question:

When Ebola broke out, and after it was contained, the WHO admitted mistakes were made. That's fine. We are humans and to err is human. They promised to address the issues which they identified after doing a RCA.

Then Covid-19 came around. Bang! Same mistakes again.

Who's (OK, no pun intended there :D ) to say that when Covid-xx happens, we will not be hearing the same story again? As I said earlier, we are not dealing with a loss of a car/airframe here. We are dealing with people's lives.


Why don't you just answer the question? What is in your opinion a better and viable option?


Global Oranisation representing issues relating to health and pandemics = Yes
Relying on the WHO as it stands right now? = No
Possible solutions:
a. Complete clean-out of the WHO. From top to bottom.
b. New global organisation created by the US (as they are the ones who seem to be the most vocal against the WHO now) which runs parallel to the WHO and works WITH the WHO. Countries are are welcome to join/contribute as they please. Sort of a new competitor to the WHO. If countries see that this new organisation is doing a better job, then the'll jump ship and the WHO as it is today will die a natural death.



Right, thus no solution to the problem than. BTW Trump is most vocal against the WHO, not the US perse.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
rfields5421
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:04 pm

As noted WHO has problems.

IMHO the biggest problem is that WHO has NO AUTHORITY. It can only try to convince nations to change, to implement recommendations, to follow guidelines.

Oh, WHO and many nations medical leaders determine social distancing significantly slows spread of the virus.

Let us see how well the people in Washington DC who are saying WHO should have raised more alarm about China (the same people who IGNORED warnings by WHO about China)

If WHO now comes out with warnings that the United States or Sweden are enhancing the spread of the disease by relaxing social distancing - thus those nations need to be quarantined from the rest of the world.

Frankly, WHO, and almost all such UN organizations are toothless. They can and do often contribute substantially to helping identify and combat problems. As long as those problems occur in nations with little global economic power. They are helpless if such problems occur in major industrialized nations such as China or the US. Because those countries have enough power themselves to override any recommendations is they see it not in their immediate short term interests.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:07 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
World Health Organisations was set up by the United Nations back in 1945 so it would be up to the United Nations to decided what to do.
I would imagine they will want to conduct a full investigation, make internal changes if needed.


Time to pull the money from the UN too and kick them out of NYC and no funding to WHO neither one has shown itself to be worth a damn.
 
marcelh
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:13 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Not surprisingly usual suspects like Macron & Merkel were tripping over themselves to support failed WHO just to spite Trump.

BTW, this was back in 2017:

WHO's Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus has appointed Robert Mugabe as a goodwill ambassador.
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/21/afri ... index.html


At least Merkel and Macron have done a way better job in dealing with the COVID-19 crisis than Trump will ever do. That's why the world won't be better of with an US led successor.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:16 pm

stratosphere wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
World Health Organisations was set up by the United Nations back in 1945 so it would be up to the United Nations to decided what to do.
I would imagine they will want to conduct a full investigation, make internal changes if needed.


Time to pull the money from the UN too and kick them out of NYC and no funding to WHO neither one has shown itself to be worth a damn.


So you see no need for international cooperation than?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:18 pm

What's the point of the W.H.O.? Taiwan who is not a member has been the ONLY country to manage the COVID19 crisis better than the rest of the countries of the world that are members of the W.H.O.

At this point it seems to me that the W.H.O. is causing more deaths than actually reducing, their delay in declaring this a pandemic and praising China is evidence. They were also late with Ebola, look what happened there.

W.H.O. has been covering up for China very well, so much so that when a Chinese government spokeperson was asked bout the information that COVID19 was made from a lab, they quoted W.H.O. Director for dismissing that claim. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKCN21Y0U4

Again, Taiwan shows why this organization is not needed is worthless and crap.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
marcelh
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:19 pm

stratosphere wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
World Health Organisations was set up by the United Nations back in 1945 so it would be up to the United Nations to decided what to do.
I would imagine they will want to conduct a full investigation, make internal changes if needed.


Time to pull the money from the UN too and kick them out of NYC and no funding to WHO neither one has shown itself to be worth a damn.


The UN will leave NYC sooner or later, because it's no use to have your HQ in a country in decline....
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:20 pm

marcelh wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
World Health Organisations was set up by the United Nations back in 1945 so it would be up to the United Nations to decided what to do.
I would imagine they will want to conduct a full investigation, make internal changes if needed.


Time to pull the money from the UN too and kick them out of NYC and no funding to WHO neither one has shown itself to be worth a damn.


The UN will leave NYC sooner or later, because it's no use to have your HQ in a country in decline....


I will be among those cheering goodbye, can't way for the day for that to happen.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
889091
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:30 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
Frankly, WHO, and almost all such UN organizations are toothless. They can and do often contribute substantially to helping identify and combat problems. As long as those problems occur in nations with little global economic power. They are helpless if such problems occur in major industrialized nations such as China or the US. Because those countries have enough power themselves to override any recommendations is they see it not in their immediate short term interests.


Couldn't agree more rfields5421. Never quite understood the veto rights of the 5 permanent Security Council members of the UN. Anytime any sort of resolution that makes sense to us common people gets tabled, it is more often than not shot down by a veto. But that's a separate discussion for a different day.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:34 pm

The WHO will remain viable post Covid-19 as lessons have been learned. The US will probably restart funding at a later date, depending on when Trump comes to his senses or is removed from office.
Trump is unstable and incompetent, and can't even lead a recovery never mind have a clue about what the WHO did or did not do.

It's not like his administration did any better. Testing was slow, and flights to and from all corners of the world were still occuring as COVID-19 spread.

For those that forget, the WHO declared a public health emergency the day before China flights were banned. The public health Emergency was declared because the virus was already in 18 countries (INCLUDING THE US).

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n ... 9-n1154341
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
marcelh
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:12 pm

casinterest wrote:
The WHO will remain viable post Covid-19 as lessons have been learned. The US will probably restart funding at a later date, depending on when Trump comes to his senses or is removed from office.
Trump is unstable and incompetent, and can't even lead a recovery never mind have a clue about what the WHO did or did not do.

It's not like his administration did any better. Testing was slow, and flights to and from all corners of the world were still occuring as COVID-19 spread.

For those that forget, the WHO declared a public health emergency the day before China flights were banned. The public health Emergency was declared because the virus was already in 18 countries (INCLUDING THE US).

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n ... 9-n1154341


This.
 
wingman
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:29 pm

As much of a bloated sack of uselessness that Trump proves himself to be day in/day out..China shut down all air travel domestically when they knew what they had on their hands BUT LET global travel from Wuhan carry on as is. That's what had to be shut down, that's the kind of authority the WHO lacks, as Aesma points out. To me this was the essential failure and why China will always bear ultimate responsibility for what they wrought not he global economy. And yet Trump's total lack of leadership skills gives them the opening to exploit the story to their own advantage.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:24 pm

The WHO doesn't have a standing army, the power to impose sanctions, or a tribunal (and even if it did no way to enforce its decisions) to compel even its members to participate fully and uphold their commitment. When a country, say China, tells the WHO the amount of information and cooperation they're willing to provide is conditional upon the organization freezing out a non-member country, what should the WHO do? Agree, or push back and risk losing all information from China?

You know who has the power to compel one country to uphold its commitments? Other countries. Perhaps an effective response would have been for the US and the EU to band together and threaten China with immediate diplomatic recognition of Taiwan unless China promises and demonstrates full cooperation going forward. But let's face it, as a respected international leader, Trump is as useful as the toilet paper that is not on the shelves in store, and EU foreign affairs ministers couldn't agree on which shoe to tie first in the morning if you asked them to.

So given that I fully recognize the WHO has committed very frustrating mistakes and probably outright lied, I ask, absent vague declaration of intents, how can it be improved or replaced by a better system? What organization can we stand up that will have the power to force its members to honor their commitments?

marcelh wrote:
Why don't you just answer the question? What is in your opinion a better and viable option?

That is indeed the question that needs to be answered BEFORE we disband the WHO. If WHO goes, what, if anything, replaces it, and how will it be better?

There is no doubt that the WHO has committed mistakes. Before we conclude that the best option to remediate them is to replace the organization, that question needs to be answered. No organization, be it global or local, is perfect. There will always be ineptitude, fraud, errors, and other failings. We should strive to eliminate them as much as possible, but we should take a balanced view and consider whether alternative solutions would reach a better outcome overall.

889091 wrote:
Global Oranisation representing issues relating to health and pandemics = Yes
Relying on the WHO as it stands right now? = No
Possible solutions:
a. Complete clean-out of the WHO. From top to bottom.
b. New global organisation created by the US (as they are the ones who seem to be the most vocal against the WHO now) which runs parallel to the WHO and works WITH the WHO. Countries are are welcome to join/contribute as they please. Sort of a new competitor to the WHO. If countries see that this new organisation is doing a better job, then they'll jump ship and the WHO as it is today will die a natural death.


As for creating a new agency under US leadership, need I remind you this is the country that is one of the very few to refuse to recognize international courts, that has in recent memory simply ignored treaties it did not like, that has in even more recent memory forced domestic and international suppliers under the threat of sanctions to cancel existing contracts with other countries to secure PPE for itself, and that has in the freshest memory attempted to steal a shipment of PPEs sent to one US hospital chain and keep it for the federal government after refusing many calls from states to coordinate the distribution of PPE and avoid this very situation. The US has demonstrated the opposite of leadership thus far in a crisis. Meanwhile China and Russia are sending masks and ventilators by the planefull to Italy, Spain, France, Belgium, Australia, etc.

If we were to ask citizens of foreign countries which foreign power's leadership they trust most right now, I do not know who would come on top, but I am fairly confident it will be very far from a landslide either way.
 
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seb146
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:36 pm

But when "ground zero" for a world wide pandemic does not share information, how is it WHO's fault?

https://www.voanews.com/science-health/ ... xperts-say
https://www.livescience.com/us-china-co ... ponse.html

From the livescience article:

(Dr. William Schaffner) gave China another C- for delaying work with the World Health Organization (WHO) and ignoring an offer of partnership from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
marcelh
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
But when "ground zero" for a world wide pandemic does not share information, how is it WHO's fault?

https://www.voanews.com/science-health/ ... xperts-say
https://www.livescience.com/us-china-co ... ponse.html

From the livescience article:

(Dr. William Schaffner) gave China another C- for delaying work with the World Health Organization (WHO) and ignoring an offer of partnership from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)


And even worse, the US government knew early on that is wasn't just a flu. But the President told everyone it was a Democratic hoax. And now they are over 40.000 deaths and counting.....
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:46 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

Time to pull the money from the UN too and kick them out of NYC and no funding to WHO neither one has shown itself to be worth a damn.


The UN will leave NYC sooner or later, because it's no use to have your HQ in a country in decline....


I will be among those cheering goodbye, can't way for the day for that to happen.


You can't wait for the US to be made less relevant, interesting point of view for an American.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:50 pm

Many UN organizations became puppets of one country or the other. WHO, WTO, and ICAO to name a few.

Trump temporarily defunding should be a wake up call to WHO, to fix themselves. Hope US will fund those projects directly in the meanwhile.
All posts are just opinions.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

The UN will leave NYC sooner or later, because it's no use to have your HQ in a country in decline....


I will be among those cheering goodbye, can't way for the day for that to happen.


You can't wait for the US to be made less relevant, interesting point of view for an American.


How does it make the US to have the anti-US, anti-Israel, worthless, do nothing UN more relevant? I wish they leave the US for good, and it won't make the US less relevant when it does.

You will find that most Americans find that the UN does a poor job at what they do: https://news.gallup.com/poll/116347/united-nations.aspx
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:58 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
How does it make the US to have the anti-US, anti-Israel, worthless, do nothing UN more relevant?


Let me translate this for meself. You believe a relevent UN is an UN who is pro-US, pro-Israel, but has all the powers in the world to override sovereign nations.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
marcelh
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:01 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Many UN organizations became puppets of one country or the other. WHO, WTO, and ICAO to name a few.

Trump temporarily defunding should be a wake up call to WHO, to fix themselves. Hope US will fund those projects directly in the meanwhile.


Trumpo his temporarily defunding has only one purpose: Blaming someone else for the mess the USA is currently in. In his narcistic world it's everybody's fault, except his own. He is just not fit for the job.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
How does it make the US to have the anti-US, anti-Israel, worthless, do nothing UN more relevant?


Let me translate this for meself. You believe a relevent UN is an UN who is pro-US, pro-Israel, but has all the powers in the world to override sovereign nations.


May I ask you, what exactly in recent times has the UN accomplished to obtain a common good in the world?
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6224
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:02 pm

casinterest wrote:
For those that forget, the WHO declared a public health emergency the day before China flights were banned. The public health Emergency was declared because the virus was already in 18 countries (INCLUDING THE US).

No we don't forget... WHO has been first dragging its feet to declare the emergency and when they finally did, the Chinese sellout Ghebreyesus seem to have face saving of Chinese commies as higher priority that WHO mission.

The WHO declared the virus a public health emergency of international concern on Thursday. The move allows the agency to recommend travel and trade measures for specific countries, regions and cities that its member states usually follow, despite their economic consequences.

In this case, WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus specifically discouraged any such measures.

“The WHO doesn’t recommend and actually opposes any restrictions for travel and trade or other measures against China,” he said, while praising China’s response to the outbreak. “If anyone is thinking about taking measures, it’s going to be wrong.”


https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/18483 ... who-advice
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11648
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:10 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
You will find that most Americans find that the UN does a poor job at what they do: https://news.gallup.com/poll/116347/united-nations.aspx


BTW, did you read the poll? I don't get it:

Do you think the United Nations is doing a good job or a poor job in trying to solve the problems it has had to face? Good job 43% Poor job: 54% No opinion 4%

So they apparently think they do not do a good job.

BUT

Now thinking more specifically, which of the following roles would you like to see the United Nations play in world affairs today -- should it play: Leading role 24% Major role 40% Minor role 33% Other (vol.) 1% No opinion 2%

So they apparently think they should have a leading or major role in world affairs.

AND

In your view, does the United Nations play a necessary role in the world today, or not? Yes, does 66% No, does not 32% No opinion 1%

Given this is your own pole, how does this strengthen your argument of withdraw of the US from the UN? If anything, this poll says the US citizen think the UN should be given a more important role in world affairs.

So I am a bit confused why you point to a poll which proofs your opinion is not supported by most Americans. Help me out here, why did you quote this poll?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You will find that most Americans find that the UN does a poor job at what they do: https://news.gallup.com/poll/116347/united-nations.aspx


BTW, did you read the poll? I don't get it:

Do you think the United Nations is doing a good job or a poor job in trying to solve the problems it has had to face? Good job 43% Poor job: 54% No opinion 4%

So they apparently think they do not do a good job.

BUT

Now thinking more specifically, which of the following roles would you like to see the United Nations play in world affairs today -- should it play: Leading role 24% Major role 40% Minor role 33% Other (vol.) 1% No opinion 2%

So they apparently think they should have a leading or major role in world affairs.

AND

In your view, does the United Nations play a necessary role in the world today, or not? Yes, does 66% No, does not 32% No opinion 1%

Given this is your own pole, how does this strengthen your argument of withdraw of the US from the UN? If anything, this poll says the US citizen think the UN should be given a more important role in world affairs.

So I am a bit confused why you point to a poll which proofs your opinion is not supported by most Americans. Help me out here, why did you quote this poll?


Not saying the US should withdraw from the UN, the post I was responding to was to the US not being the headquarters of them. That's what I meant.

And respond to me, what exactly in recent times has the UN done for a common good?
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
marcelh
Posts: 1012
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:13 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
casinterest wrote:
For those that forget, the WHO declared a public health emergency the day before China flights were banned. The public health Emergency was declared because the virus was already in 18 countries (INCLUDING THE US).

No we don't forget... WHO has been first dragging its feet to declare the emergency and when they finally did, the Chinese sellout Ghebreyesus seem to have face saving of Chinese commies as higher priority that WHO mission.

The WHO declared the virus a public health emergency of international concern on Thursday. The move allows the agency to recommend travel and trade measures for specific countries, regions and cities that its member states usually follow, despite their economic consequences.

In this case, WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus specifically discouraged any such measures.

“The WHO doesn’t recommend and actually opposes any restrictions for travel and trade or other measures against China,” he said, while praising China’s response to the outbreak. “If anyone is thinking about taking measures, it’s going to be wrong.”


https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/18483 ... who-advice


Your statement is form February 1st. It wasn't a smart statement from the WHO to say the least, but it is also interesting to see what President Trump told his people on the 29th of February. It starts with an "H" and end with "oax":

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-calls-coronavirus-democrats-new-hoax-n1145721
Last edited by marcelh on Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11648
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:16 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
How does it make the US to have the anti-US, anti-Israel, worthless, do nothing UN more relevant?


Let me translate this for meself. You believe a relevent UN is an UN who is pro-US, pro-Israel, but has all the powers in the world to override sovereign nations.


May I ask you, what exactly in recent times has the UN accomplished to obtain a common good in the world?


Please study the UN and what it actually does with its many organizations and the effect of it. You clearly have no clue what it does and its effects. And yet you feel perfectly capable to dismiss it without having a clue.

To start you off: Link
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:18 pm

But you will discover that most countries would be perfectly happy if the UN moved to Geneva for example.....
Last edited by Olddog on Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Signature censored
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11648
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:20 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You will find that most Americans find that the UN does a poor job at what they do: https://news.gallup.com/poll/116347/united-nations.aspx


BTW, did you read the poll? I don't get it:

Do you think the United Nations is doing a good job or a poor job in trying to solve the problems it has had to face? Good job 43% Poor job: 54% No opinion 4%

So they apparently think they do not do a good job.

BUT

Now thinking more specifically, which of the following roles would you like to see the United Nations play in world affairs today -- should it play: Leading role 24% Major role 40% Minor role 33% Other (vol.) 1% No opinion 2%

So they apparently think they should have a leading or major role in world affairs.

AND

In your view, does the United Nations play a necessary role in the world today, or not? Yes, does 66% No, does not 32% No opinion 1%

Given this is your own pole, how does this strengthen your argument of withdraw of the US from the UN? If anything, this poll says the US citizen think the UN should be given a more important role in world affairs.

So I am a bit confused why you point to a poll which proofs your opinion is not supported by most Americans. Help me out here, why did you quote this poll?


Not saying the US should withdraw from the UN, the post I was responding to was to the US not being the headquarters of them. That's what I meant.


Oh, now I am even more puzzled, so you believe the UN to be relevant, you apparently don't want the US to withdraw of the UN? And yet you want the UN out of NYC for some reason. So what is exactly the problem you have with the HQ being in NYC or even in the US?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3895
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:21 pm

889091 wrote:
Could countries breakaway from the WHO and form a separate entity? Seems like the l0ogical step to do if they are so pi$$ed off at the WHO.

Why try to re-invent the wheel? Find out what went wrong, and make sure the current WHO does not make the same mistakes again.

You don't just disband a department or organisation because of single fuck-ups. In particular if the problem is, for a large part, out of their control. The WHO has no team of investigators. No way to set rules. Definately no way to enforce rules. It's a gentlemen's club bound by gentlemen's rules. China did not inform them in a timely manner. When China finally did send out warnings, the information provided was likely incomplete. How's that the WHO's fault?

But let's take your example a bit further. Everytime something goes wrong, a department is disbanded.

Do you propose to disband the ATF after the next mass-shooting?
Do you propose to disband the CIA after, heaven forbid, there is a new terrorist attack?
Do you propose to disband the NSA after soldiers die due to wrong intelligence?
Do you propose to disband the DEA the next time a contrainer load of cocaine hits the streets?

I think we both know the answer to that.
Attamottamotta!
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

BTW, did you read the poll? I don't get it:

Do you think the United Nations is doing a good job or a poor job in trying to solve the problems it has had to face? Good job 43% Poor job: 54% No opinion 4%

So they apparently think they do not do a good job.

BUT

Now thinking more specifically, which of the following roles would you like to see the United Nations play in world affairs today -- should it play: Leading role 24% Major role 40% Minor role 33% Other (vol.) 1% No opinion 2%

So they apparently think they should have a leading or major role in world affairs.

AND

In your view, does the United Nations play a necessary role in the world today, or not? Yes, does 66% No, does not 32% No opinion 1%

Given this is your own pole, how does this strengthen your argument of withdraw of the US from the UN? If anything, this poll says the US citizen think the UN should be given a more important role in world affairs.

So I am a bit confused why you point to a poll which proofs your opinion is not supported by most Americans. Help me out here, why did you quote this poll?


Not saying the US should withdraw from the UN, the post I was responding to was to the US not being the headquarters of them. That's what I meant.


Oh, now I am even more puzzled, so you believe the UN to be relevant, you apparently don't want the US to withdraw of the UN? And yet you want the UN out of NYC for some reason. So what is exactly the problem you have with the HQ being in NYC or even in the US?


Some other poster said that prefers the UN to leave the US (post 20). I said sure go ahead. No I am not saying is relevant, its irrelevant, but allow the US to participate and have a seat at the table.

And you have yet to answer my question. Basically the UN's goal is mostly bureaucracy, that's all. Nothing good from you to show off why the UN is worth having.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6224
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:30 pm

marcelh wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
casinterest wrote:
For those that forget, the WHO declared a public health emergency the day before China flights were banned. The public health Emergency was declared because the virus was already in 18 countries (INCLUDING THE US).

No we don't forget... WHO has been first dragging its feet to declare the emergency and when they finally did, the Chinese sellout Ghebreyesus seem to have face saving of Chinese commies as higher priority that WHO mission.

The WHO declared the virus a public health emergency of international concern on Thursday. The move allows the agency to recommend travel and trade measures for specific countries, regions and cities that its member states usually follow, despite their economic consequences.

In this case, WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus specifically discouraged any such measures.

“The WHO doesn’t recommend and actually opposes any restrictions for travel and trade or other measures against China,” he said, while praising China’s response to the outbreak. “If anyone is thinking about taking measures, it’s going to be wrong.”


https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/18483 ... who-advice


Your statement is form February 1st. It wasn't a smart statement from the WHO to say the least, but it is also interesting to see what President Trump told his people on the 29th of February. It starts with an "H" and end with "oax":

Try to suppress your deranged obsession with Trump... the discussion is about the WHO which, upon China's demand, delayed declaration of international emergency by an entire week and then acted against public interest (see above).
 
889091
Topic Author
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:54 pm

petertenthije wrote:
889091 wrote:
Could countries breakaway from the WHO and form a separate entity? Seems like the l0ogical step to do if they are so pi$$ed off at the WHO.

Why try to re-invent the wheel? Find out what went wrong, and make sure the current WHO does not make the same mistakes again.


That's what I am trying to get across. After Ebola, they performed an independent review:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-34877787

Fast forward to 2020 and we seem to be back at square one. From the article:
"It said the WHO had also failed to meet its responsibilities for responding to the outbreak because of a lack of leadership and accountability."

You mentioned that China did not inform the WHO in a timely manner. OK, since WHO accepts voluntary contributions from other countries, then it is the job of the Secretary General to grow some kahunas and ask China to get the relevant info to them (WHO) ASAP. The Sec Gen represents the global community. Yes he has no authority to compel China to provide the information, but perhaps a few choice words during an international press conference could possibly have 'shamed' China into responding in a timely manner.

At the end of the day, most of you are correct - there is only one single global organisation - The WHO. I wish there were another one, so that there is at least some form of competition.

And I sincerely hope that they clean up their own house, because as DocLightning bravely bet 2 rolls of toilet paper in the other thread - it is not a matter of if, but a matter of when the next pandemic hits us
 
marcelh
Posts: 1012
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:24 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
marcelh wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
No we don't forget... WHO has been first dragging its feet to declare the emergency and when they finally did, the Chinese sellout Ghebreyesus seem to have face saving of Chinese commies as higher priority that WHO mission.

The WHO declared the virus a public health emergency of international concern on Thursday. The move allows the agency to recommend travel and trade measures for specific countries, regions and cities that its member states usually follow, despite their economic consequences.

In this case, WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus specifically discouraged any such measures.

“The WHO doesn’t recommend and actually opposes any restrictions for travel and trade or other measures against China,” he said, while praising China’s response to the outbreak. “If anyone is thinking about taking measures, it’s going to be wrong.”


https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/18483 ... who-advice


Your statement is form February 1st. It wasn't a smart statement from the WHO to say the least, but it is also interesting to see what President Trump told his people on the 29th of February. It starts with an "H" and end with "oax":

Try to suppress your deranged obsession with Trump... the discussion is about the WHO which, upon China's demand, delayed declaration of international emergency by an entire week and then acted against public interest (see above).


If Trump hadn’t criticized the WHO, you wouldn’t made a statement about it. Using phrases like “deranged obsession” doesn’t add credibillity to your post, because it makes perfectly clear you are just supporting someone who lacks true leadership. The USA deserves better.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6224
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:17 am

marcelh wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Your statement is form February 1st. It wasn't a smart statement from the WHO to say the least, but it is also interesting to see what President Trump told his people on the 29th of February. It starts with an "H" and end with "oax":

Try to suppress your deranged obsession with Trump... the discussion is about the WHO which, upon China's demand, delayed declaration of international emergency by an entire week and then acted against public interest (see above).


If Trump hadn’t criticized the WHO, you wouldn’t made a statement about it. Using phrases like “deranged obsession” doesn’t add credibillity to your post, because it makes perfectly clear you are just supporting someone who lacks true leadership. The USA deserves better.

Feel free to search my previous posts on Trump to see how off the mark you are.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11648
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Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:22 am

889091 wrote:
At the end of the day, most of you are correct - there is only one single global organisation - The WHO. I wish there were another one, so that there is at least some form of competition.


And you still haven't made any rationale why a competing organization would do any better. How would it work anyway? Why would China except that and be more willing to provide the relevant information?

So yes, the WHO has its share of problems and isn't perfect, but why would your solution be better and solve this problem?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2902
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:04 am

seb146 wrote:
But when "ground zero" for a world wide pandemic does not share information, how is it WHO's fault?

Oh I don't know, maybe not actively parrot the misleading and incorrect information China was putting out while also suppressing questioning/inquiry into said information China was putting out?

This isn't some minor bureaucratic snafu. This is a major cock-up that his indirectly contributed (not just a failure, but contributed) to the global spread of COVID-19, an appalling thing to have on record as an agency whose core plank is public health and pandemic mitigation/prevention.

Of course Trump is a windbag and is trying to completely scapegoat the WHO for his total lack of leadership in this crisis, but I completely support him withholding funds to serve as a wake-up call to the WHO...all member nations should be doing so. Even if you support the WHO, you should be very alarmed as their actions, like it or not, have destroyed their credibility going forward. I don't think the WHO goes away, but one of two things comes out of this:
1) Wholesale strip down and house cleaning; complete reorganization to create a more effective and independent WHO.
or
2) WHO continues to limp along, but now as just some useless bureaucratic mass that no one listens to or respects.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22333
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Relevance of the WHO post Covid-19

Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:52 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
But when "ground zero" for a world wide pandemic does not share information, how is it WHO's fault?

Oh I don't know, maybe not actively parrot the misleading and incorrect information China was putting out while also suppressing questioning/inquiry into said information China was putting out?

This isn't some minor bureaucratic snafu. This is a major cock-up that his indirectly contributed (not just a failure, but contributed) to the global spread of COVID-19, an appalling thing to have on record as an agency whose core plank is public health and pandemic mitigation/prevention.

Of course Trump is a windbag and is trying to completely scapegoat the WHO for his total lack of leadership in this crisis, but I completely support him withholding funds to serve as a wake-up call to the WHO...all member nations should be doing so. Even if you support the WHO, you should be very alarmed as their actions, like it or not, have destroyed their credibility going forward. I don't think the WHO goes away, but one of two things comes out of this:
1) Wholesale strip down and house cleaning; complete reorganization to create a more effective and independent WHO.
or
2) WHO continues to limp along, but now as just some useless bureaucratic mass that no one listens to or respects.


China was not sharing information with WHO. Yes, WHO could have been more forceful and could have done a much better job asking questions and doing research. But, to disband them and hope something better comes along is wrong.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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