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FLALEFTY
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Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:58 pm

Mike Boyd is an interesting cat who has been hopping sides on the COVID-19 crisis since February (when he originally dismissed it as a concern), to now wanting to use his firm's airport/airline performance data to support possible US airports' litigation against the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

Please discuss...

https://www.aviationplanning.com/monday-flash-2-2-2/
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:04 pm

No please let's not discuss.
It's pathetic how this blame game is looking more important to some then the health hazards. This American sue-culture really out there.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:09 pm

China exporting virus internationally by air travel in January to Europe and elsewhere was “no bueno.”


Especially while quarantining virus domestically by banning and quarantining air travel within China.

YES China should be sued. China should have their pants sued completely off for what they have done to Europe and countries elsewhere.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:09 pm

I do not have law background to determine validity of such case but in my opinion they should.
Everybody should actually.
Silencing medical personnel, persecuting people for warning the world about it and destroying evidence is the reason why.
 
tphuang
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:12 pm

Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

I’m not taking a stance on this either way but there are Chinese-owned interests in the US that could be seized upon non payment.
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
strfyr51
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

Only Banning China from flying internationally would even get their attention. And Just Who is going to DO such a thing? That's right, NOBODY!!
The Chinese might have to lay low for a while no doubt. But Suing them? Really? C'mon! Who but the US or the EU would ever consider such a thing?
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:28 pm

There is a concept called sovereign immunity. It is not possible to sue foreign governments in US courts. When the people who relatives died in a terrorist attack got a law passed to allow the country of the origin of that attack to be sued it was thrown out by courts.

China clearly has a measure of responsibility for this whole mess, but when everyone else failed to take the appropriate responses in a timely manner, they bare the consequences too. While it was a problem only for others, no body was reacting. But if your bike gets stolen and you did not lock it up, yes the person who nicked it was responsible, but you could have prevented it. Its all very well yelling at the wind, but its going to ignore you.

Right now we are entering our most dangerous time, when people start to feel safer but its not really over. The base case load to spread will be higher than when we went into the half hearted lockdown. Its not going to be readily apparent for another month because of the diseases timeline. Following the data is getting harder in the US with the thing having gone on so long the novelty is wearing off, the reporting consistency of state data is falling off making it hard to know what the right numbers are. And when we talk about a few hundred that feels like a number we can understand when it gets to 50,000 the disconnect kicks in and its just a number and not real people. If we could have sustained the quarantine a little longer we would probably have really had an effect but I worry that we will have all sacrificed but ultimately for naught because of our impatience.

Good luck out there.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:31 pm

tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.


It plays to a political base. https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/ ... -covid-19/
 
afcjets
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:32 pm

tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.


While we're at it, perhaps we can sue China for global warming.
 
GDB
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:03 pm

I've posted this on another thread, as I mentioned there, I can take or leave this guy, however if what he says is the case of 'Ag Gag' laws in the US, no doubt lobbied for by the same political base this idea about China is aimed at;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OoT2OZWCOI
 
bhill
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:04 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

Only Banning China from flying internationally would even get their attention. And Just Who is going to DO such a thing? That's right, NOBODY!!
The Chinese might have to lay low for a while no doubt. But Suing them? Really? C'mon! Who but the US or the EU would ever consider such a thing?


Welp, Trump did...after the horse left the barn.
Carpe Pices
 
bkmbr
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:05 pm

afcjets wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.


While we're at it, perhaps we can sue China for global warming.


In other hand the individuals from middle east countries can sue the american government for dropping bombs on them even when the USA is not technically in war against the countries they live. Lawsuits can be dangerous because it can go both ways. Once the precedent is established that a country can be held responsible for everything that arises there, whether by action or inaction, you open the gates for all kinds of similar allegations.
 
FLALEFTY
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:05 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

Only Banning China from flying internationally would even get their attention. And Just Who is going to DO such a thing? That's right, NOBODY!!
The Chinese might have to lay low for a while no doubt. But Suing them? Really? C'mon! Who but the US or the EU would ever consider such a thing?


Theoretically a case against the CCP could reach a judgement in US courts, but this would not be enforceable under the terms of international law. Also, the Trump administration doesn't trust the international court at The Hague to judge such a case since the outcome might be unpredictable. Plus, China could easily hide behind the widely-accepted legal clause of "Force Majeure" & claim that they had no reasonable expectation of control over the COVID-19 situation.

Mike Boyd is desparate. His little aviation consulting business consisting of 6 people (including himself and his wife) has to be struggling. He is using his Monday rant this week to "spitball" a potential new source of work & revenue for his firm. However, I wonder if he will have success explaining/defending his firm's data under a fine-tooth analysis and deposition by a skilled group of opposing lawyers? It is not easy - This I know from years of experience as a frequent expert witness working in another litigious industry.
 
bhill
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:08 pm

I DO think the UN or the Big 3 Nations should have a sit down Come To Jesus Meeting with the Chinese government about their Health/Sanitary market practices...Or they might wind up being embargoed. This most recent exportation of 3rd world practices have killed near a quarter of a million people and wiped out the budgets of just about every industry on the planet...
Carpe Pices
 
ltbewr
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:17 pm

Attempts to sue the PRC government, try to clamp down on trade from them won't happen and will make relations worse. The PRC government leadership has taken a hard line in refusing blame, banning outside investigators, instead blaming 'others' for how they got hit with this virus. Of course Trump, other government leaders want a scapegoat in the PRC that already most voters hate anyway to use in their re-election campaigns and distract their own failures
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:26 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Attempts to sue the PRC government, try to clamp down on trade from them won't happen and will make relations worse. The PRC government leadership has taken a hard line in refusing blame, banning outside investigators, instead blaming 'others' for how they got hit with this virus. Of course Trump, other government leaders want a scapegoat in the PRC that already most voters hate anyway to use in their re-election campaigns and distract their own failures


We are talking potentially suing China for a cover up on a global scale that killed entire economies not Trump or other leaders.
They might have reacted poorly but that has nothing to do in topic at hand.
 
KFTG
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:32 pm

FlyRow wrote:
It's pathetic how this blame game is looking more important to some then the health hazards.

What's pathetic is the outright (cowardly?) refusal by people to try to hold China accountable for ANYTHING.
 
tphuang
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:44 pm

Lrockeagle wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

I’m not taking a stance on this either way but there are Chinese-owned interests in the US that could be seized upon non payment.


Keep in mind Western countries have this thing called rule of law which an authoritarian gov't does not have to abide by. The minute Chinese interest starts to get seized in america, western assets will start to get seized in China under obscure laws that are completely non-transparent.

Among many reasons why I would never chose to live in China.

There are things Western countries could pressure China into compensation, but suing CCP is not a very good one.
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:53 pm

tphuang wrote:
Lrockeagle wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

I’m not taking a stance on this either way but there are Chinese-owned interests in the US that could be seized upon non payment.


Keep in mind Western countries have this thing called rule of law which an authoritarian gov't does not have to abide by. The minute Chinese interest starts to get seized in america, western assets will start to get seized in China under obscure laws that are completely non-transparent.

Among many reasons why I would never chose to live in China.

There are things Western countries could pressure China into compensation, but suing CCP is not a very good one.


You are not talking one factor into the account.
People.
At some point they will stand up.
I don't think that time is now but it will happen.
 
Flaps
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:07 pm

The best way to punish China for this and all of their other transgressions is to simply limit/stop conducting business with them. Hit them in the one place where they will care, the wallet. Lawsuits in this case are ridiculous. China doesn't recognize the rule of law. Such lawsuits are unenforceable, expensive and at best open the doors to a Pandora's box of unintended consequences.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:15 pm

Even if a winning case against the CCP in US courts is not enforceable internationally, wouldn't this at least provide impetus for the US to hold them financially accountable from our (the US) side of things? Accountable in the form of a collateral to the tune of...... lets say.... $1.1 trillion.... which happens to be the amount of debt the US owes China. Since China would not pay a judgement against them to the US.

Would China really retaliate by freezing US assets within China? If they go down that road they can kiss firms such as Apple, etc goodbye because no one in their right mind would ever set up a plant in China again. Having those firms come home would be a good thing. I don't see what the US has to lose wrt pursueing legal action.
FLYi
 
rfields5421
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:18 pm

This sounds like a get rich quick scheme - for lawyers.

They will keep trying to win, and collect damages, as long as the people suing keep paying the lawyers.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:45 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Would China really retaliate by freezing US assets within China? If they go down that road they can kiss firms such as Apple, etc goodbye because no one in their right mind would ever set up a plant in China again.

Be careful what you wish for. Companies don’t care about national borders. They care about money.

The Chinese market is 1.4 billion people, a large amount of them untapped.
The US market is 328 million. A large part of which has already been tapped out anyway.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:05 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Be careful what you wish for. Companies don’t care about national borders. They care about money.

If they don't care about national borders then nothing would change that mindset faster than if said nation starts to freeze the company's assets and money... which is the hypothetical presented here. That in turn would have a huge influence on money, which as you said they care very much about.
FLYi
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:47 pm

If you have a case against China, you probably have a better case against the US, and that one might lead to money. There were people dying of this in the US in January/early February. What was the US government doing at the time ?

bhill wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

Only Banning China from flying internationally would even get their attention. And Just Who is going to DO such a thing? That's right, NOBODY!!
The Chinese might have to lay low for a while no doubt. But Suing them? Really? C'mon! Who but the US or the EU would ever consider such a thing?


Welp, Trump did...after the horse left the barn.


When the virus was clearly spreading in the US, did Trump stop interstate flights ? Did he stop any flight ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tphuang
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:55 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Even if a winning case against the CCP in US courts is not enforceable internationally, wouldn't this at least provide impetus for the US to hold them financially accountable from our (the US) side of things? Accountable in the form of a collateral to the tune of...... lets say.... $1.1 trillion.... which happens to be the amount of debt the US owes China. Since China would not pay a judgement against them to the US.

Would China really retaliate by freezing US assets within China? If they go down that road they can kiss firms such as Apple, etc goodbye because no one in their right mind would ever set up a plant in China again. Having those firms come home would be a good thing. I don't see what the US has to lose wrt pursueing legal action.


If China ever gets wind of US gov't just unilaterally taking away their treasury/agency holdings, they would sell that really fast. And the result would be a catastrophe for the US bond market. Chinese (and possibly other foreign) companies/individuals would start pulling money out since they would lose confidence that their money is safe in America. Some countries would be afraid using USD to do transactions. Who knows what that would do to USD as world's reserve currency. If USD loses reserve currency status, it would be a huge national disaster.

People honestly do not seem to understand the ramifications of some of the suggestions out there.
Last edited by tphuang on Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:56 pm

This seems like a flimsy case built on red baiting and an appetite for income. I'm not sure how a political party can spread the virus on its own unless specific party members went about spreading the virus as part of their job at the CCP. If government workers made some sort of mistake, then it was the government itself and not the party who should be accused of malfeasance, and we all know that foreign governments cannot be sued per US law. This is somewhat reciprocal, as the US doesn't want anyone suing them for the millions of lives lost in their wars and cooperation with the Saudis.
 
11C
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:14 pm

KFTG wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
It's pathetic how this blame game is looking more important to some then the health hazards.

What's pathetic is the outright (cowardly?) refusal by people to try to hold China accountable for ANYTHING.


While we’re assigning accountability, let’s assign some to our government for having the most inept response among the worlds leading economies. The intel community was warning, nobody wanted to hear.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:37 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.


It plays to a political base. https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/ ... -covid-19/


Everyone should read this, especially US citizens.

I don't 100% agree with all the points, but everything related to the proposed law and its disastrous effects is right on. Everyone would end up a loser.

Reading the comments, it seems some people can read that and still believe it's a good idea, though...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
KFTG
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:08 am

11C wrote:
KFTG wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
It's pathetic how this blame game is looking more important to some then the health hazards.

What's pathetic is the outright (cowardly?) refusal by people to try to hold China accountable for ANYTHING.


While we’re assigning accountability, let’s assign some to our government for having the most inept response among the worlds leading economies. The intel community was warning, nobody wanted to hear.

Agree completely and the inept response to this event should cost Trump his re-election.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:14 am

Lrockeagle wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

I’m not taking a stance on this either way but there are Chinese-owned interests in the US that could be seized upon non payment.


how much US property is in China? Uops.... a game with two losers.

11C wrote:
KFTG wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
It's pathetic how this blame game is looking more important to some then the health hazards.

What's pathetic is the outright (cowardly?) refusal by people to try to hold China accountable for ANYTHING.


While we’re assigning accountability, let’s assign some to our government for having the most inept response among the worlds leading economies. The intel community was warning, nobody wanted to hear.


and i am wondering... when will everybody get their compensation for the 1918 American flu, that the US government not just kept secret from everyone, but kept shipping infected troops out over to Europe.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
KFTG
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:20 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Lrockeagle wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

I’m not taking a stance on this either way but there are Chinese-owned interests in the US that could be seized upon non payment.


how much US property is in China? Uops.... a game with two losers.

11C wrote:
KFTG wrote:
What's pathetic is the outright (cowardly?) refusal by people to try to hold China accountable for ANYTHING.


While we’re assigning accountability, let’s assign some to our government for having the most inept response among the worlds leading economies. The intel community was warning, nobody wanted to hear.


and i am wondering... when will everybody get their compensation for the 1918 American flu, that the US government not just kept secret from everyone, but kept shipping infected troops out over to Europe.

best regards
Thomas

Everybody who was alive then? So like 10 people? Chinese apologist.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:41 am

KFTG wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Lrockeagle wrote:
I’m not taking a stance on this either way but there are Chinese-owned interests in the US that could be seized upon non payment.


how much US property is in China? Uops.... a game with two losers.

11C wrote:

While we’re assigning accountability, let’s assign some to our government for having the most inept response among the worlds leading economies. The intel community was warning, nobody wanted to hear.


and i am wondering... when will everybody get their compensation for the 1918 American flu, that the US government not just kept secret from everyone, but kept shipping infected troops out over to Europe.

best regards
Thomas

Everybody who was alive then? So like 10 people? Chinese apologist.


The economic damage is not dependent on how many people are alive, and is compounding, so i would expect trillions in damage compounding over the last century.

And calling me a Chinese apologist is essentially delusional. I am arguing for decades that we should not do any trade with China, or any dictatorship for that matter, and called the Bejing junta criminal for about as long as i am alive. And in many years i haven´t bought anything "Made in the PRC", while you where quite likely enjoying the low prices they enabled until very recently, if not still.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:31 am

tommy1808 wrote:

and i am wondering... when will everybody get their compensation for the 1918 American flu, that the US government not just kept secret from everyone, but kept shipping infected troops out over to Europe.


What about HIV/AIDS? 32 million dead worldwide. The Reagan Administration ignored it, allowed the virus to spread throughout the US and worldwide, laughed about it in press conferences or claimed it was punishment against gays for sinning.

Can the families of those victims sue the US?

How about H1N1 in 2009? 500’000 dead worldwide. The US knew about it but took far longer to notify the WHO than China did over COVID this year. I guess the families of those victims can expect a big payout.

Iraq War victims? Where are those WMDs again?

Kuwaiti incubator babies? Sanctions against Iran, Iraq, Venezuela that‘ve killed and starved millions. I bet the relatives of 3 million Vietnamese killed in their own country would love the chance to sue America over Agent Orange and My Lai. Every Central and South American nation like Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Cuba that has had their democratically elected government overthrown by the CIA is preparing a lawsuit.

Americans, don’t be too cocky about suing China because you could set a precedent that will see the rest of the world sue the pants off you and leave your country more bankrupt than it already is.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:47 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

and i am wondering... when will everybody get their compensation for the 1918 American flu, that the US government not just kept secret from everyone, but kept shipping infected troops out over to Europe.


What about HIV/AIDS? 32 million dead worldwide. The Reagan Administration ignored it, allowed the virus to spread throughout the US and worldwide, laughed about it in press conferences or claimed it was punishment against gays for sinning.

Can the families of those victims sue the US?


or climate change.... 40 years of denial and obstruction addressing the issue, while having contributed most CO2 in the atmosphere, 25% of global cumulated CO2 emissions.

I have the feeling the very same people demanding money from China would freak out once that goes to litigation, and the USA has to shell out two trillion US$ over the next 30 years at least, with probably much more to come.

Living in Germany, itself having piled up quite some CO2 over its history, i am not sure i want that sort of precedent to be set.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:49 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Nicaragua


Nicaragua already did, and won, and the US refused to pay up.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:14 am

No, this a Pandora's box that should not be opened.

As others have already said, the world will sue the living daylights out of the US. Furthermore, China and the rest of the world can simply just stop Investments in the US and demand you pay your debt.
 
GDB
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:03 am

tommy1808 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

how much US property is in China? Uops.... a game with two losers.



and i am wondering... when will everybody get their compensation for the 1918 American flu, that the US government not just kept secret from everyone, but kept shipping infected troops out over to Europe.

best regards
Thomas

Everybody who was alive then? So like 10 people? Chinese apologist.


The economic damage is not dependent on how many people are alive, and is compounding, so i would expect trillions in damage compounding over the last century.

And calling me a Chinese apologist is essentially delusional. I am arguing for decades that we should not do any trade with China, or any dictatorship for that matter, and called the Bejing junta criminal for about as long as i am alive. And in many years i haven´t bought anything "Made in the PRC", while you where quite likely enjoying the low prices they enabled until very recently, if not still.

best regards
Thomas


Quite right, I too thought at the time that after the massacres in 1989, China should have not been a bit frozen out for a few years but have sanctions much greater and if they had not changed, in place to this day.
But no, who wanted them lifted?
Business interests who wanted to offshore work to cheap labour.

Recently read an obit of that hero of US business, a guru no less, that nasty old git Jack Welch.
GE made all sorts of consumer electronics and industrial items, not just engines, he and plenty of others led the charge to 'go financial' with GE being a particular example, where do those in the US who lament all the lost good industrial jobs, think many of them went to?
And who was responsible, who had tame lawmakers make it easy?

And their ultimate response? Enough of them were foolish to to elect a businessman, rather a reality TV host who was a failed one, who is also guilty of offshoring, Chinese steel for his crass buildings, imported labour, to put him in the White House.
You did it to yourselves.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12531
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:19 am

Mortyman wrote:
No, this a Pandora's box that should not be opened.

As others have already said, the world will sue the living daylights out of the US. Furthermore, China and the rest of the world can simply just stop Investments in the US and demand you pay your debt.


Which btw would also pretty much fix the trade imbalance, as the sum total of trade vs. sum total FID plus current foreign holdings of US debt are the same. No FID, no loans = the USD have no where to go then into buying US products and services.

GDB wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Everybody who was alive then? So like 10 people? Chinese apologist.


The economic damage is not dependent on how many people are alive, and is compounding, so i would expect trillions in damage compounding over the last century.

And calling me a Chinese apologist is essentially delusional. I am arguing for decades that we should not do any trade with China, or any dictatorship for that matter, and called the Bejing junta criminal for about as long as i am alive. And in many years i haven´t bought anything "Made in the PRC", while you where quite likely enjoying the low prices they enabled until very recently, if not still.

best regards
Thomas


Quite right, I too thought at the time that after the massacres in 1989, China should have not been a bit frozen out for a few years but have sanctions much greater and if they had not changed, in place to this day.


Exactly, they should have been crushed then and there, straight including kicking them out of the UN.

But no, who wanted them lifted?
Business interests who wanted to offshore work to cheap labour.


... and once Chinese labour stopped being dirt cheap, the Bush jr. government went straight to making US investments in Vietnam easy.

GOP admins seem to really love propping up pseudo communist dictatorships.

You did it to yourselves.


That was always true, no Chinese soldier put a gun to their heads to make them buy stuff made in the PRC.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:04 pm

Mortyman wrote:
No, this a Pandora's box that should not be opened.

As others have already said, the world will sue the living daylights out of the US. Furthermore, China and the rest of the world can simply just stop Investments in the US and demand you pay your debt.


The Pandora's box is open.

The US and other nations have made a circus out of 'international courts' and 'default judgements' against other nations in civil courts. As I said above, the only ones who get 'compensation' are the lawyers.

As far as debts, Chinese and other nation's holding of US debt is much less than the amount of US debt held by taxpayers in the US, mostly in the form of retirement plans and savings.

The US IS PAYING the foreign and other debts. The instrument of US debt is bonds. Which have a definite due date. Those are being paid on time in full.

The US government has no demand payment debt. Holders of 20 and 30 year bonds can sell those bonds on the open market to anyone willing to pay the asked for price. If the individual citizens and corporations in China were to choose to sell all the US bonds they hold, it would hurt a lot of people, but not the US government directly.

Maybe it would make selling new US bonds difficult in a low buyers market.

Also the US bonds held in China are not owned by the Chinese government.

Yes, the Chinese government could attempt to embargo US spending similar to the embargo on money and good to the Iran. That would destroy the Chinese economy. Maybe China would find going back to a closed country such as they had in 1965. Just abandoning the entire rest of the world. Get real.

What China will do is the same as the other nations do. Ignore the whole deal. Some tariffs and restrictions on certain goods will happen. Maybe China will embargo and stop all the deer stands and wild dear feeding stations being sold to Trump supporters in the US each year. Because redneck Trump supporters are too cheap to buy a 'Made in the USA' product over a $5 cheaper one made in China.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12531
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:02 am

rfields5421 wrote:
The US and other nations have made a circus out of 'international courts' and 'default judgements' against other nations in civil courts. As I said above, the only ones who get 'compensation' are the lawyers..


We already have that, it is the international court. Unfortunately the US under Reagan broke that by refusing to abide by its rulings. But hey, why pay up for government sponsored, deliberate, strategic terrorism.....

So, pay up or shut up.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4486
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 01, 2020 8:46 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Lrockeagle wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Have fun subpoena China or getting China to pay. These ideas are laughable.

I’m not taking a stance on this either way but there are Chinese-owned interests in the US that could be seized upon non payment.


how much US property is in China? Uops.... a game with two losers.

11C wrote:
KFTG wrote:
What's pathetic is the outright (cowardly?) refusal by people to try to hold China accountable for ANYTHING.


While we’re assigning accountability, let’s assign some to our government for having the most inept response among the worlds leading economies. The intel community was warning, nobody wanted to hear.


and i am wondering... when will everybody get their compensation for the 1918 American flu, that the US government not just kept secret from everyone, but kept shipping infected troops out over to Europe.

best regards
Thomas

To your first response... not a lot. China doesn’t allow foreign investors to own land there but is quite happy to do so itself.

To your second response about the 1918 pandemic, it would probably help your argument if you did a bit more research first.
The pandemic did go from America and then on to Europe etc. Guess where it came from before America? I’ll give you a clue... the same country that started Covid-19, Birdflu and SARS...

Just imagine being the person who still supports China in 2020? :roll:
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12531
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 01, 2020 10:03 am

Zkpilot wrote:
To your second response about the 1918 pandemic, it would probably help your argument if you did a bit more research first.
The pandemic did go from America and then on to Europe etc. Guess where it came from before America? I’ll give you a clue... the same country that started Covid-19, Birdflu and SARS... :


Maybe you should head your own advice?

Virus seemingly around in the USA as early as 1915, mutated in the US:
https://academic.oup.com/view-large/fig ... z001f1.tif

Chinese workers ruled out as cause: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
(And since its peer reviewed, don't even try the "oh, chinese study" hogwash).

So, yeah... it's the American flu.

If you want to go down the "uh yeah..... but some of those Gene's came from China", well, then no one is responsible for any virus, as all life in this planet has common ancestry.

And that is a high horse with rather long legs anyways, considering that US poltry farming is just as disgusting as wet markets, and a pandemic coming out of that is just a matter of when, not if, as bird flu infecting humans happens there all the time. Just now for example:

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/newsro ... 04/hpai-sc

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4486
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 01, 2020 10:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
To your second response about the 1918 pandemic, it would probably help your argument if you did a bit more research first.
The pandemic did go from America and then on to Europe etc. Guess where it came from before America? I’ll give you a clue... the same country that started Covid-19, Birdflu and SARS... :


Maybe you should head your own advice?

Virus seemingly around in the USA as early as 1915, mutated in the US:
https://academic.oup.com/view-large/fig ... z001f1.tif

Chinese workers ruled out as cause: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
(And since its peer reviewed, don't even try the "oh, chinese study" hogwash).

So, yeah... it's the American flu.

If you want to go down the "uh yeah..... but some of those Gene's came from China", well, then no one is responsible for any virus, as all life in this planet has common ancestry.

And that is a high horse with rather long legs anyways, considering that US poltry farming is just as disgusting as wet markets, and a pandemic coming out of that is just a matter of when, not if, as bird flu infecting humans happens there all the time. Just now for example:

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/newsro ... 04/hpai-sc

Best regards
Thomas

There you go again misreading what has been written and then plugging in an argument backed by a study which has little to do with what was written.
The subject wasn’t about Chinese bringing Spanish flu to Europe. The subject was about Chinese bring it to America where Americans then took it to Europe.
Unfortunately science back then wasn’t very good so now the evidence is destroyed so we have to rely on other forms of evidence - historians etc.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ce-health/
But hey nothing is ever China’s fault. The CCP and it’s minions like yourself make sure of that.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 01, 2020 10:54 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
China exporting virus internationally by air travel in January to Europe and elsewhere was “no bueno.”


Especially while quarantining virus domestically by banning and quarantining air travel within China.

YES China should be sued. China should have their pants sued completely off for what they have done to Europe and countries elsewhere.



They didn't completely suspend air travel within China.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... ravel.html

But hey, I guess it is easier to repeat the talking point from the honorary KKK members in the GOP rather than do the research.

They only restricted flights to-from Hubei/Wuhan. Also, you lot were too busy citing the measures within China to be "draconian" and "authoritarian" but now you want to blame them for dropping the ball yourselves.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Sat May 02, 2020 7:39 am

Acheron wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
China exporting virus internationally by air travel in January to Europe and elsewhere was “no bueno.”


Especially while quarantining virus domestically by banning and quarantining air travel within China.

YES China should be sued. China should have their pants sued completely off for what they have done to Europe and countries elsewhere.



They didn't completely suspend air travel within China.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... ravel.html

But hey, I guess it is easier to repeat the talking point from the honorary KKK members in the GOP rather than do the research.

They only restricted flights to-from Hubei/Wuhan. Also, you lot were too busy citing the measures within China to be "draconian" and "authoritarian" but now you want to blame them for dropping the ball yourselves.



SO you are trying to say China stopped flights to the US and Europe on the January 23rd?

You may want to check your facts.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
GDB
Posts: 13530
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Sat May 02, 2020 8:16 am

Zkpilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
To your second response about the 1918 pandemic, it would probably help your argument if you did a bit more research first.
The pandemic did go from America and then on to Europe etc. Guess where it came from before America? I’ll give you a clue... the same country that started Covid-19, Birdflu and SARS... :


Maybe you should head your own advice?

Virus seemingly around in the USA as early as 1915, mutated in the US:
https://academic.oup.com/view-large/fig ... z001f1.tif

Chinese workers ruled out as cause: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
(And since its peer reviewed, don't even try the "oh, chinese study" hogwash).

So, yeah... it's the American flu.

If you want to go down the "uh yeah..... but some of those Gene's came from China", well, then no one is responsible for any virus, as all life in this planet has common ancestry.

And that is a high horse with rather long legs anyways, considering that US poltry farming is just as disgusting as wet markets, and a pandemic coming out of that is just a matter of when, not if, as bird flu infecting humans happens there all the time. Just now for example:

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/newsro ... 04/hpai-sc

Best regards
Thomas

There you go again misreading what has been written and then plugging in an argument backed by a study which has little to do with what was written.
The subject wasn’t about Chinese bringing Spanish flu to Europe. The subject was about Chinese bring it to America where Americans then took it to Europe.
Unfortunately science back then wasn’t very good so now the evidence is destroyed so we have to rely on other forms of evidence - historians etc.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ce-health/
But hey nothing is ever China’s fault. The CCP and it’s minions like yourself make sure of that.


What is the difference between PRC suppression of news they don't like and the US 'Ag-Gag' laws?
One is direct, top down one party rule, the other are the real rulers of the US bribing lawmakers, many of whom are in post due voter suppression and gerrymandering.
Not that any Avian based pathogen cares.
There is a reason why the EU is so leery about US food imports and it ain't a bunch of stroppy French farmers.

The world knows about the likely source of Covid-19, even within China though you'd best keep that to yourself if you are a citizen there.
How many in the US even know about the practices of Big-Ag in their own nation?

Anyway, one day Trump is kissing Xi's butt - plenty of that when this crisis erupted, since after, it was only 15 people, soon be over.
Then it's blame China when it all spins out of control in the US.
Not that Xi and his mob care, after all, he's been into them for millions since 2012.
 
wingman
Posts: 3904
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Sat May 02, 2020 4:24 pm

GDB wrote:
What is the difference between PRC suppression of news they don't like and the US 'Ag-Gag' laws?
One is direct, top down one party rule, the other are the real rulers of the US bribing lawmakers, many of whom are in post due voter suppression and gerrymandering.
Not that any Avian based pathogen cares.
There is a reason why the EU is so leery about US food imports and it ain't a bunch of stroppy French farmers.


Gordon, this is a seriously flawed comparison. I'm surprised someone of your caliber can't appreciate the distinction. Tens of millions of Americans know exactly how nasty our corporate food chain is. Sadly the bulk of our poultry, pork and beef farming isn't conducted in the Four Seasons-mandated atmosphere demanded by EU standards. Still, I don't ever recall European vegetable farmers buying massive air time during UEFA games to broadcast English and French cows getting their throats slit and guts ripped open as they shit themselves all over the chutes. No one wants to see it, there's a reason. I don't know what the chlorinated chicken crap is but I guarantee that no one I know eats that crap. There's a market for every taste and budget. The important thing is whether it's safe or proven otherwise.

And now to the point of your comparison, that the US and China are somehow equal in their "hiding of the truth". In the United States it would be virtually impossible for Perdue Farms, the State of Iowa, the CDC, the FDA and the entire inner circle of the White House to suppress, hide, lie and control a viral outbreak the magnitude of what China foisted on the world with CV19. Do you honestly think that the foundations of our legal, government and free press sectors are so weak? The opinion is ludicrous and it's never happened in recent memory, certainly not without massive ramifications for those involved and proven guilty. The kind of shit China just put us through is exactly like what Russia did with Chernobyl, and it's simply astonishing the magnitude of the damage. When has the US ever done this before? Come on man, you're better than this and seriously hope your European brothers and sisters aren't going to so easily wimper away from holding China accoutable. The UK without Europe, Europe with the UK, it's hard to see any of you standing up to anyone in the future. A single glare from Putin or Xi is all it'll take and you'll be singing "But, but..but America is evil too!".
 
GDB
Posts: 13530
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Sat May 02, 2020 5:48 pm

wingman wrote:
GDB wrote:
What is the difference between PRC suppression of news they don't like and the US 'Ag-Gag' laws?
One is direct, top down one party rule, the other are the real rulers of the US bribing lawmakers, many of whom are in post due voter suppression and gerrymandering.
Not that any Avian based pathogen cares.
There is a reason why the EU is so leery about US food imports and it ain't a bunch of stroppy French farmers.


Gordon, this is a seriously flawed comparison. I'm surprised someone of your caliber can't appreciate the distinction. Tens of millions of Americans know exactly how nasty our corporate food chain is. Sadly the bulk of our poultry, pork and beef farming isn't conducted in the Four Seasons-mandated atmosphere demanded by EU standards. Still, I don't ever recall European vegetable farmers buying massive air time during UEFA games to broadcast English and French cows getting their throats slit and guts ripped open as they shit themselves all over the chutes. No one wants to see it, there's a reason. I don't know what the chlorinated chicken crap is but I guarantee that no one I know eats that crap. There's a market for every taste and budget. The important thing is whether it's safe or proven otherwise.
And now to the point of your comparison, that the US and China are somehow equal in their "hiding of the truth". In the United States it would be virtually impossible for Perdue Farms, the State of Iowa, the CDC, the FDA and the entire inner circle of the White House to suppress, hide, lie and control a viral outbreak the magnitude of what China foisted on the world with CV19. Do you honestly think that the foundations of our legal, government and free press sectors are so weak? The opinion is ludicrous and it's never happened in recent memory, certainly not without massive ramifications for those involved and proven guilty. The kind of shit China just put us through is exactly like what Russia did with Chernobyl, and it's simply astonishing the magnitude of the damage. When has the US ever done this before? Come on man, you're better than this and seriously hope your European brothers and sisters aren't going to so easily wimper away from holding China accoutable. The UK without Europe, Europe with the UK, it's hard to see any of you standing up to anyone in the future. A single glare from Putin or Xi is all it'll take and you'll be singing "But, but..but America is evil too!".


First my name isn't Gordon, secondly, yes I know that the PRC and the US political system are very different, still the fact remains that PRC is top down dictatorial brutal, whereas the US has sadly, become more and more 'the best democracy money can buy'.
Those foundations you mention were not weak, they used to be world class, they are however being undermined, steadily, in particular under modern GOP admins, this one being the worst.

Either stuffing them with stooges with a financial stake in undermining them or just not recruiting replacements, you think the likes of Betsey at education are unusual?
Or shuttering an agency designed to help cope with just this situation with the pandemic because in his mind 'President illegitimate darkie' set it up. Remember his racist conspiracy theories, like it or not, that helped him to the WH.

You cannot run proper Federal safeguards if you do not believe in them in the first place.
And no I don't think the majority of US citizens are aware of the less safe big ag practices. Or more to the point how safeguards are being diluted, suppressed to the point of uselessness,

50 years after a POTUS, albeit one with an eye to where the political wind was blowing, announced Earth Day and created agencies to at least combat the worst of environmental damage, you have one who denies basic science, including Global Warming, then says it's a 'Chinese Hoax' (sound familiar?)
Good god, he makes Nixon look great!

We are far from innocent in the UK too, remember BSE? Well the (Tory) government of the day spun it, with some success, as being Europe's fault for not taking the beef we allowed to contract it, or as was said at the time, it stood for 'Blame Someone Else'.
Add in two foot and mouth outbreaks, we got the nickname on the continent of 'plague island'.
You think all this Brexit stupidity started with a semi drunk ex banker channeling racism?

My objection to this doubling down on China is not that they don't deserve it, they do, however it is nakedly an attempt to divert attention from Trump's botching of the crisis.
Some of us pay attention, one day he is kissing Xi's butt, the next attacking. As well someone into them money wise as he is might do.
The latest? It was cooked up in a Chinese Lab. Never mind the combined might of the US intel community think otherwise.

How is any of this helping in the fight against Covid, or to prevent it coming back, worse in a more powerful form?
I argued on here the other day that our letting the PRC off the hook after the 1989 massacres was driven by corporate greed, most thought the main downside to rapid movement to sweat shop industries caused large job losses in the West, most notably the US and UK.
In in first term, Obama asked Steve Jobs why all Apple's stuff was made in China? Jobs was curt, 'unaffordable to make in US', this was a company that wasn't even paying it's tax share. Not that a man who could order up nuclear devastation could do anything about it, try getting bills to fix this through, you might given a big majority in one House to do so, you know what would happen next.

Now we have this catastrophic situation.
As well as a more and more powerful and militarily aggressive PRC.

None of this criticism of the US gives me pleasure, I find it distressing that a great nation is going this way.
It greatly strengthens the Putin's and Xi's of this world.

Just as I have, for the first time in my life, over the past four years, been more and more ashamed to be British.
(A fellow UK air net member, well liked and respected, told me not to feel this back in 2016, well sad to say things have gone from bad to shit in that period, you have your worst modern POUTUS, us the same as PM).
With only this as a tiny, crumb of comfort;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -president
Last edited by GDB on Sat May 02, 2020 6:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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