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tommy1808
Posts: 12531
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 5:26 am

wingman wrote:
I don't know what the chlorinated chicken crap is but I guarantee that no one I know eats that crap. There's a market for every taste and budget. The important thing is whether it's safe or proven otherwise.".


Chlorinated chicken is food not fit for human consumption made safe by using chlorine. The chicken is safe*, the farms delivering it are a major health risk. Hence the frequent avian flu infections of farm workers.

best regards
Thomas

*as long everything is done to the letter
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 7:28 am

If anything, it has exposed the flaws of the Chinese Communist Party to those who were woefully unaware or just ignorant... and I'm talking about the Jim Rogers types who love talking about the "Chinese miracle" and drop their three words of Mandarin to impress whoever is still listening to them.

It's true that the coronavirus has only sped up the split of the US "bloc" and China "bloc" of the world. Repercussions may or may not come, and I guess we can only wait and see what the next step is.

But any words of action from the EU should be taken with a grain of salt. The EU nations have much to take care of on the domestic front. I am not long on the EU being a world power, given their woefully underperforming economies and unproductive populace.
 
GDB
Posts: 13530
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 8:05 am

Elite wrote:
If anything, it has exposed the flaws of the Chinese Communist Party to those who were woefully unaware or just ignorant... and I'm talking about the Jim Rogers types who love talking about the "Chinese miracle" and drop their three words of Mandarin to impress whoever is still listening to them.

It's true that the coronavirus has only sped up the split of the US "bloc" and China "bloc" of the world. Repercussions may or may not come, and I guess we can only wait and see what the next step is.

But any words of action from the EU should be taken with a grain of salt. The EU nations have much to take care of on the domestic front. I am not long on the EU being a world power, given their woefully underperforming economies and unproductive populace.


If any great power is in decline, it is one that elects a childish buffoon. Is increasingly influenced by populism and anti science.
Where are most flat Earthers from?
For all it's flaws, the demise of the EU has been predicated many times. Right from it's inception.
I would argue that there is more of a divide between rational America and the rest, or as one historian put it 'Worldly America' and 'Godly America'.

Besides, the EU does not seek to be a 'world power' in the sense the US does, how has the various US led, instigated conflicts gone this century so far?
Iraq - led to Iran being more powerful than ever, ditto North Korea, Taliban still standing, Your own bankers did way more damage than Bin Laden did to the economy, you rewarded them.
Now the US might be the worst hit by the Pandemic, certainly will be if the fool in the WH puts his attempts at re-election ahead of the safety of the people he says he leads, making a second surge much more likely.
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 8:38 am

GDB wrote:
Elite wrote:
If anything, it has exposed the flaws of the Chinese Communist Party to those who were woefully unaware or just ignorant... and I'm talking about the Jim Rogers types who love talking about the "Chinese miracle" and drop their three words of Mandarin to impress whoever is still listening to them.

It's true that the coronavirus has only sped up the split of the US "bloc" and China "bloc" of the world. Repercussions may or may not come, and I guess we can only wait and see what the next step is.

But any words of action from the EU should be taken with a grain of salt. The EU nations have much to take care of on the domestic front. I am not long on the EU being a world power, given their woefully underperforming economies and unproductive populace.


If any great power is in decline, it is one that elects a childish buffoon. Is increasingly influenced by populism and anti science.
Where are most flat Earthers from?
For all it's flaws, the demise of the EU has been predicated many times. Right from it's inception.
I would argue that there is more of a divide between rational America and the rest, or as one historian put it 'Worldly America' and 'Godly America'.

Besides, the EU does not seek to be a 'world power' in the sense the US does, how has the various US led, instigated conflicts gone this century so far?
Iraq - led to Iran being more powerful than ever, ditto North Korea, Taliban still standing, Your own bankers did way more damage than Bin Laden did to the economy, you rewarded them.
Now the US might be the worst hit by the Pandemic, certainly will be if the fool in the WH puts his attempts at re-election ahead of the safety of the people he says he leads, making a second surge much more likely.


And the rest of the Western world - namely Europe - does not suffer from the ills that you have mentioned? The UK leaving the European project has been predicted many times, right from their joining. And suddenly, it was no longer a joke - it happened.

Europe and the EU should not be in denial about the lack of competitiveness of its economy. The high unemployment rate, especially among the young, makes it very worrying going forward. Compare this to the progess being made in countries and cities all across ASEAN. The most worrying thing is truly the lack of urgency from the general population across Europe, as they bank on the huge advantage they had in 20th century to carry them forward. It isn't.

The rise of China and the new cold war / trade war with the US has actually made me rethink my stance on Europe. Perhaps it is necessary to band the continent together - outside of the main countries, there is no chance the rest of the economies survive on their own. The EU might just be their best bet to stay afloat.
 
Olddog
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 8:46 am

The UK leaving EU is just a country that has delusion of grandeur and pretending to be way bigger that it is.....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 8:50 am

Olddog wrote:
The UK leaving EU is just a country that has delusion of grandeur and pretending to be way bigger that it is.....


... or perhaps it's voters have legitimate reasons for wanting to leave the EU and has done so in a democratically established way?

This dismissive and arrogant attitude you are displaying is a pretty good representation of the Remainers and Clintonites in the US. That's why it came back to smack you in the face.
 
Olddog
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 8:59 am

You just think that the UK leaving the EU is a problem for me. I am more than happy that it happened whatever your reason is. The UK was a a bad team member and will not be missed.
As we say the brits invented fair-play just for the others to use.
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12531
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 9:10 am

Elite wrote:
Europe and the EU should not be in denial about the lack of competitiveness of its economy. .


six of the ten most competitive economies are in Europe, ten out of the top 20 and 15 out of the Top 30....

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_TheGlo ... rt2019.pdf

Not that there isn´t room for improvement, but "lack of competitiveness" is neat.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
GDB
Posts: 13530
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 9:35 am

Elite wrote:
GDB wrote:
Elite wrote:
If anything, it has exposed the flaws of the Chinese Communist Party to those who were woefully unaware or just ignorant... and I'm talking about the Jim Rogers types who love talking about the "Chinese miracle" and drop their three words of Mandarin to impress whoever is still listening to them.

It's true that the coronavirus has only sped up the split of the US "bloc" and China "bloc" of the world. Repercussions may or may not come, and I guess we can only wait and see what the next step is.

But any words of action from the EU should be taken with a grain of salt. The EU nations have much to take care of on the domestic front. I am not long on the EU being a world power, given their woefully underperforming economies and unproductive populace.


If any great power is in decline, it is one that elects a childish buffoon. Is increasingly influenced by populism and anti science.
Where are most flat Earthers from?
For all it's flaws, the demise of the EU has been predicated many times. Right from it's inception.
I would argue that there is more of a divide between rational America and the rest, or as one historian put it 'Worldly America' and 'Godly America'.

Besides, the EU does not seek to be a 'world power' in the sense the US does, how has the various US led, instigated conflicts gone this century so far?
Iraq - led to Iran being more powerful than ever, ditto North Korea, Taliban still standing, Your own bankers did way more damage than Bin Laden did to the economy, you rewarded them.
Now the US might be the worst hit by the Pandemic, certainly will be if the fool in the WH puts his attempts at re-election ahead of the safety of the people he says he leads, making a second surge much more likely.


And the rest of the Western world - namely Europe - does not suffer from the ills that you have mentioned? The UK leaving the European project has been predicted many times, right from their joining. And suddenly, it was no longer a joke - it happened.

Europe and the EU should not be in denial about the lack of competitiveness of its economy. The high unemployment rate, especially among the young, makes it very worrying going forward. Compare this to the progess being made in countries and cities all across ASEAN. The most worrying thing is truly the lack of urgency from the general population across Europe, as they bank on the huge advantage they had in 20th century to carry them forward. It isn't.

The rise of China and the new cold war / trade war with the US has actually made me rethink my stance on Europe. Perhaps it is necessary to band the continent together - outside of the main countries, there is no chance the rest of the economies survive on their own. The EU might just be their best bet to stay afloat.


I hate the stupidity of Brexit, however the current PM when London Mayor was pro EU.
With this pandemic already creating a massive economic hit, for all the rhetoric if it's another hit caused by a no deal Brexit and his political survival? There is a reason he appointed the poorest Cabinet ever, all supplicants and no threat to him.

Huge world changing events create, well change.
The UK government have had to ditch 40 years of orthodoxy thus far.
They do keep making WW2 comparisons. Fine, we got comprehensive public health and a whole lot more in the wake of that.
That overturned orthodoxies going way further back than 40 years.

He's not saying that now, however even fellow Conservatives who know him have said, for years, the only thing he really believes in is his career, not political ideals, by US standards he's socially liberal. That's about all.
Don't mistake that for me liking him though!
In fact, he's only there since his opponent was hopeless, well he's gone now replaced by a far more formidable one.
'Boris' has not given a full interview with a seasoned interviewer since 2013.

As for the the crappy economy, remind us who are major employers in what would otherwise be very bad regions of the US economically, I can think of two off the top of my head, in the South. Mercedes and Airbus.
Want to compare German and other European Auto exports to the US with US ones to Europe?
A UK/European pharma group look to be at the forefront of the fight against Covid.
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 10:33 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Elite wrote:
Europe and the EU should not be in denial about the lack of competitiveness of its economy. .


six of the ten most competitive economies are in Europe, ten out of the top 20 and 15 out of the Top 30....

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_TheGlo ... rt2019.pdf

Not that there isn´t room for improvement, but "lack of competitiveness" is neat.

best regards
Thomas


Just to be clear, I am vehemently pro-European. It goes without saying the history and culture found in Europe is amazing, as is their existing institutions when it comes to human rights.

However, the WEF wholly overrates these institutions when it comes to economic competitiveness. Several countries in the top 30 - Iceland, Ireland - are literally broke. The whole Huawei debacle shows that while China is focused on the high tech and strategic industries, the rest of the world has lacked focus and lagged behind.

Say what you want about Communist China (I am a big critic of them), or other ASEAN nations, but they have a population dedicated to bettering themselves and their nations. The general population lives fiscally disciplined and are not overly entitled.

Simply put, time will tell. See how the spending power of Europeans are against Americans or Indians or East / South Asians dwindle in the coming years, or how GDP growth will stagnate out.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12728
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 12:06 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Lrockeagle wrote:
I’m not taking a stance on this either way but there are Chinese-owned interests in the US that could be seized upon non payment.


how much US property is in China? Uops.... a game with two losers.

11C wrote:

While we’re assigning accountability, let’s assign some to our government for having the most inept response among the worlds leading economies. The intel community was warning, nobody wanted to hear.


and i am wondering... when will everybody get their compensation for the 1918 American flu, that the US government not just kept secret from everyone, but kept shipping infected troops out over to Europe.

best regards
Thomas

To your first response... not a lot. China doesn’t allow foreign investors to own land there but is quite happy to do so itself.

To your second response about the 1918 pandemic, it would probably help your argument if you did a bit more research first.
The pandemic did go from America and then on to Europe etc. Guess where it came from before America? I’ll give you a clue... the same country that started Covid-19, Birdflu and SARS...

Just imagine being the person who still supports China in 2020? :roll:


Come on Zk Spanish Flu is generally accepted by all to have started in the US, it didn't start in China, that's just alt right conspiracy websites spewing that line of BS.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12728
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 12:19 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
To your second response about the 1918 pandemic, it would probably help your argument if you did a bit more research first.
The pandemic did go from America and then on to Europe etc. Guess where it came from before America? I’ll give you a clue... the same country that started Covid-19, Birdflu and SARS... :


Maybe you should head your own advice?

Virus seemingly around in the USA as early as 1915, mutated in the US:
https://academic.oup.com/view-large/fig ... z001f1.tif

Chinese workers ruled out as cause: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
(And since its peer reviewed, don't even try the "oh, chinese study" hogwash).

So, yeah... it's the American flu.

If you want to go down the "uh yeah..... but some of those Gene's came from China", well, then no one is responsible for any virus, as all life in this planet has common ancestry.

And that is a high horse with rather long legs anyways, considering that US poltry farming is just as disgusting as wet markets, and a pandemic coming out of that is just a matter of when, not if, as bird flu infecting humans happens there all the time. Just now for example:

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/newsro ... 04/hpai-sc

Best regards
Thomas

There you go again misreading what has been written and then plugging in an argument backed by a study which has little to do with what was written.
The subject wasn’t about Chinese bringing Spanish flu to Europe. The subject was about Chinese bring it to America where Americans then took it to Europe.
Unfortunately science back then wasn’t very good so now the evidence is destroyed so we have to rely on other forms of evidence - historians etc.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ce-health/
But hey nothing is ever China’s fault. The CCP and it’s minions like yourself make sure of that.


How or when did the Chinese bring Spanish flu to America, Chinese immigration to the US was banned in 1882 by the Chinese Exclusion Act, it was renewed in 1892 with the Geary Act and made permanent in 1902. The ban wasn't lifted until the Magnuson Act of 1943. With no Chinese immigration to the US from 1882 until well after the first confirmed case of Spanish Flu at Fort Riley in March 1918, how did the Chinese cause it?
 
Kiwirob
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 12:27 pm

wingman wrote:
GDB wrote:
What is the difference between PRC suppression of news they don't like and the US 'Ag-Gag' laws?
One is direct, top down one party rule, the other are the real rulers of the US bribing lawmakers, many of whom are in post due voter suppression and gerrymandering.
Not that any Avian based pathogen cares.
There is a reason why the EU is so leery about US food imports and it ain't a bunch of stroppy French farmers.


I don't know what the chlorinated chicken crap is but I guarantee that no one I know eats that crap. There's a market for every taste and budget. The important thing is whether it's safe or proven otherwise.


All chicken from the US is chlorinated, so if you or your friends have ever been to the US and eaten chicken you've eaten chlorinated chook. It was banned in the EU in 1997, banned in NZ, banned in Australia, it will probably soon be legalised in the UK since the US won't sign FTA's with origin labeling, UK consumers will soon be eating it. The US chlorinate chicken because the chooks live in overcrowded unsanitary conditions, it's far cheaper to kill all the nasty diseases the chickens have after processing than keeping them in less crowded disease free enclosures.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3857
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 12:46 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
How or when did the Chinese bring Spanish flu to America, Chinese immigration to the US was banned in 1882 by the Chinese Exclusion Act, it was renewed in 1892 with the Geary Act and made permanent in 1902. The ban wasn't lifted until the Magnuson Act of 1943. With no Chinese immigration to the US from 1882 until well after the first confirmed case of Spanish Flu at Fort Riley in March 1918, how did the Chinese cause it?

Haven’t you learned by now that logic and facts have no place in a political discussion? :)
Attamottamotta!
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4486
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 1:24 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Maybe you should head your own advice?

Virus seemingly around in the USA as early as 1915, mutated in the US:
https://academic.oup.com/view-large/fig ... z001f1.tif

Chinese workers ruled out as cause: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
(And since its peer reviewed, don't even try the "oh, chinese study" hogwash).

So, yeah... it's the American flu.

If you want to go down the "uh yeah..... but some of those Gene's came from China", well, then no one is responsible for any virus, as all life in this planet has common ancestry.

And that is a high horse with rather long legs anyways, considering that US poltry farming is just as disgusting as wet markets, and a pandemic coming out of that is just a matter of when, not if, as bird flu infecting humans happens there all the time. Just now for example:

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/newsro ... 04/hpai-sc

Best regards
Thomas

There you go again misreading what has been written and then plugging in an argument backed by a study which has little to do with what was written.
The subject wasn’t about Chinese bringing Spanish flu to Europe. The subject was about Chinese bring it to America where Americans then took it to Europe.
Unfortunately science back then wasn’t very good so now the evidence is destroyed so we have to rely on other forms of evidence - historians etc.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ce-health/
But hey nothing is ever China’s fault. The CCP and it’s minions like yourself make sure of that.


How or when did the Chinese bring Spanish flu to America, Chinese immigration to the US was banned in 1882 by the Chinese Exclusion Act, it was renewed in 1892 with the Geary Act and made permanent in 1902. The ban wasn't lifted until the Magnuson Act of 1943. With no Chinese immigration to the US from 1882 until well after the first confirmed case of Spanish Flu at Fort Riley in March 1918, how did the Chinese cause it?

Chinese labourers were transported to Europe via Canada.... you know the country right next to America?

And no I don’t think anyone would call National Geographic or the universities it references as “alt-right”. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ce-health/
Then again you do seem to have a weird fascination with defending China despite the disaster they have propagated on the world.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
FLALEFTY
Topic Author
Posts: 643
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 3:41 pm

Just to keep the ball rolling on this subject, Mike Boyd doubles-down on his "Blame China" rhetoric. As others have pointed out, Boyd has been intoxicated by the "Trumpian Kool-Aid" for quite some time, so this comes as no surprise. Anyway, here's his latest Monday Rant:

https://www.aviationplanning.com/monday-flash-2-2-2/
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12728
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 3:54 pm

And this article was written in 2014, where is the evidence that this is correct. I can’t find any peer reviews that back him.

Writing in the January issue of the journal War in History, Humphries acknowledges that his hypothesis awaits confirmation by viral samples from flu victims. Such evidence would tie the disease's origin to one location.


Samples of Spanish Flu already exist and have existed for some time. A Swedish scientist Johan Hultin dug up graves in Alaska in the 51 to collect samples, he collected more samples from the same village in 97.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... virus.html

The thing that pisses me off is the west created the China out of greed, it was western capitalists who wanted cheaper locations to produce the products we all buy, this lead to China’s extraordinary growth. Now we want to throw them under the bus. It’s a knee jerk reaction which will lead result in lots of kicking and screaming but ultimately those same capitalists will continue to produce in China because they can’t afford to move production back.

I also don’t think anyone with half a brain can claim that China is at fault for the god awful response to this pandemic that most western nations faced. In the US China wasn’t responsible for dismantling all the pandemic precautions that has been in place since Bush II, that’s all on Trump, it’s wasn't China fault that Bojo didn’t know what was happening and wasn’t interested until he caught it himself.
 
wingman
Posts: 3904
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 9:53 pm

China can't be blamed for the virus itself but they should be rightly blamed for their actions following its discovery. They knew about it and let it spread around the world. We all could've been in lock down much sooner and saved tens of thousands of lives. That would've been a great outcome on its own. One outcome that never would've changed is the economic devastation. Contrary to your absurdist rationale Rob, the US and Europe didn't create China..it's always been there, it's always been a trading and business hub..thousands of years of history seem to have passed you by as vomited up your regular anti-American drivel. There's right and wrong, and even more important than that is admitting when you are wrong. The facts are black and white. They shut down their own country and just let the planes fly on. So maybe Trump owns half our deaths and Spain and Italy own half of theirs. But China owns 100% of the colossal cost to the global economy. You know why they circulate rubbish bullshit about the US Military depositing this virus in Wuhan? Because of people like you Rob, another drone in a vast army of ignorant tools awaiting whatever orders come your way via RT or China Daily.

We created China so it's all our fault. You're a Darwin candidate right there.
 
winginit
Posts: 2819
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 10:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Maybe you should head your own advice?

Virus seemingly around in the USA as early as 1915, mutated in the US:
https://academic.oup.com/view-large/fig ... z001f1.tif

Chinese workers ruled out as cause: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub
(And since its peer reviewed, don't even try the "oh, chinese study" hogwash).

So, yeah... it's the American flu.

If you want to go down the "uh yeah..... but some of those Gene's came from China", well, then no one is responsible for any virus, as all life in this planet has common ancestry.

And that is a high horse with rather long legs anyways, considering that US poltry farming is just as disgusting as wet markets, and a pandemic coming out of that is just a matter of when, not if, as bird flu infecting humans happens there all the time. Just now for example:

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/newsro ... 04/hpai-sc

Best regards
Thomas

There you go again misreading what has been written and then plugging in an argument backed by a study which has little to do with what was written.
The subject wasn’t about Chinese bringing Spanish flu to Europe. The subject was about Chinese bring it to America where Americans then took it to Europe.
Unfortunately science back then wasn’t very good so now the evidence is destroyed so we have to rely on other forms of evidence - historians etc.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ce-health/
But hey nothing is ever China’s fault. The CCP and it’s minions like yourself make sure of that.


How or when did the Chinese bring Spanish flu to America, Chinese immigration to the US was banned in 1882 by the Chinese Exclusion Act, it was renewed in 1892 with the Geary Act and made permanent in 1902. The ban wasn't lifted until the Magnuson Act of 1943. With no Chinese immigration to the US from 1882 until well after the first confirmed case of Spanish Flu at Fort Riley in March 1918, how did the Chinese cause it?


It's actually very much contested even today as to where the 1918 flu originated. The topic was covered at length in this recent podcast from NPR. Could be the United States, France, Britain, or China.
 
GDB
Posts: 13530
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 04, 2020 11:26 pm

wingman wrote:
China can't be blamed for the virus itself but they should be rightly blamed for their actions following its discovery. They knew about it and let it spread around the world. We all could've been in lock down much sooner and saved tens of thousands of lives. That would've been a great outcome on its own. One outcome that never would've changed is the economic devastation. Contrary to your absurdist rationale Rob, the US and Europe didn't create China..it's always been there, it's always been a trading and business hub..thousands of years of history seem to have passed you by as vomited up your regular anti-American drivel. There's right and wrong, and even more important than that is admitting when you are wrong. The facts are black and white. They shut down their own country and just let the planes fly on. So maybe Trump owns half our deaths and Spain and Italy own half of theirs. But China owns 100% of the colossal cost to the global economy. You know why they circulate rubbish bullshit about the US Military depositing this virus in Wuhan? Because of people like you Rob, another drone in a vast army of ignorant tools awaiting whatever orders come your way via RT or China Daily.

We created China so it's all our fault. You're a Darwin candidate right there.


We kind of did, China was closed off to the world for hundreds of years, until the West opened it, at the point of a gun.
We have a saying in Britain, 'for all the tea in China', what is left off is 'and all the opium we can supply, like it or not'.
The likes of Jardine Matheson might had led they way, with cannon vs junks but other Western nations soon got their fingers in there, including the 'isolationist' US. British 'concessions', US, French and Germans. Anyone half involved in trading, whether the locals liked it or not. Their navies patrolled the Yangze.
Hong Kong for Britain, Macau for the Portuguese, Shanghai for everyone.

For China, it was the great humiliation.
That was before the Japanese rocked up in the 1930's, when irksome foreigners were replaced by a really brutal occupier, their part of the world, still foreign though.

As it happens, I've been listening a lot to the rock songs of my youth, one vocal break from British group The Jam, from a track on their 1979 Album 'Setting Sons' has just come to mind;
Come on outside, I'll sing you a lullaby, I'll tell you a tale, how goodness prevailed, we ruled the world, we killed and robbed, the fucking lot - but we don't feel bad......it was done beneath the flag of democracy!
(Little Boy Soldiers).

That was then, long time ago, however my contention is that this fueled the warlords in China, which in turn let the Japanese roll in, which in turn gave Mao his chance.

I can highly recommend 'Mao' by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday.
(He was an odd kind of Communist, put it like that, really he was actually a nationalist, 'Communism' was a tool, a rallying point. Unlike Chang Kai-Shek, no tool of the 'foreign devils' who had humiliated China for so long. At least that's how he could spin it).

Why am I mentioning all of this, well that is how they see the world, it's a central plank of PRC lore, it's why Mao's massive crimes, appalling behavior and in the end, deadly economic failures, are if not forgiven then whitewashed.
Bit like our 19th and 20th Century history with China.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue May 05, 2020 5:16 am

wingman wrote:
China can't be blamed for the virus itself but they should be rightly blamed for their actions following its discovery. They knew about it and let it spread around the world. We all could've been in lock down much sooner and saved tens of thousands of lives. That would've been a great outcome on its own. One outcome that never would've changed is the economic devastation. Contrary to your absurdist rationale Rob, the US and Europe didn't create China..it's always been there, it's always been a trading and business hub..thousands of years of history seem to have passed you by as vomited up your regular anti-American drivel. There's right and wrong, and even more important than that is admitting when you are wrong. The facts are black and white. They shut down their own country and just let the planes fly on. So maybe Trump owns half our deaths and Spain and Italy own half of theirs. But China owns 100% of the colossal cost to the global economy. You know why they circulate rubbish bullshit about the US Military depositing this virus in Wuhan? Because of people like you Rob, another drone in a vast army of ignorant tools awaiting whatever orders come your way via RT or China Daily.

We created China so it's all our fault. You're a Darwin candidate right there.


The first case was diagnosed in China on the 1st of December, the CDC were advised about the virus on 31st December, they issued a public health warning on the 8th of January, the rest of the world new about C19 early January, most countries did nothing. If NZ had shut the borders when members of parliament first asked that the govt do so, nearly 3-4 weeks before the first case was diagnosed in NZ we could have been virus free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ember_2019

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ted_States

Ah so if the West didn't offshore production of practically everything to China do you think they would have the same presence in the world they have today? The China that exists today got there because of us, we wanted cheaper products and shareholders wanted more profits.If you can't comprehend that who is the ignorant fool?
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue May 05, 2020 5:44 am

Could some who accuse China of being too slow to react to and communicate about the virus explain what exact actions China performed they should be criminally negligent for?

I've included two links below of scientists detailing China's response. The virus was sequenced in the Wuhan lab and the genome disseminated worldwide in record time and scientists around the world have praised China for this. I prefer to hear from them rather than bad actors with political agendas:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00741-x

https://sciencebusiness.net/internation ... ling-virus

It also seems China reacted quicker to COVID-19 than the US reacted to H1N1 or HIV/AIDS. COVID is more dangerous than seasonal flu, but in the early stages of the pandemic that wasn't known for sure. China at least bought the world some time. I think the West squandered it and now is looking for a scapegoat in that time honoured American tradition of legal action.
 
wingman
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue May 05, 2020 7:21 pm

I like scientists too. Unfortunately they were being silenced by direct threat as the outbreak first unfolded and they and doctors attempted to warn the Chinese people and the world. So what did the "bad actors" do and not do? I know what the most important bad actor in the US did and didn't do because it's on the record and our legal, government and journalistic frameworks make it impossible to hide. I want to understand the facts from China. Outside of sharing the genome and defective respirators they've not disclosed anything related to their handling of the outbreak. 1300 flights from China landed in the US during January as China downplayed the severity of Covid. No one knew what exactly we had on our hands because they weren't sharing the critical scientific or medical details. The one doctor that did try to share was silenced and then died (causing massive online outrage in China itself!). In the first half of January over 4000 people flew directly from Wuhan to the United States. Over 390,000 arrived in the US before Trump imposed his travel ban. How many went to Europe and elsewhere and what exactly did China know about the virus and its lethality while these flights happened? That outbound travel in January, especially from Wuhan, was the seed that led directly to the severity of the outbreak. Any chance at containment, the mitigation of death and the salvation of the global economy was lost in that month. What did the Chinese government know and when did they know it? These answers are demanded of the United States every time it screws the pooch. Well we never screwed the pooch quite this badly and yet many here seem more than willing give China a pass. I for one don't care that all of our electronics come from China or that England and France caused them so much grief in drug wars 170 years ago. Tiananmen, the South China Sea..those ships have sailed indeed. I hope we don't give them a third pass. Imagine what China would think getting away with this shit storm. They'd know the West has become so collectively weak and spineless that they and Russia would have total carte blanche to do whatever the hell they felt like from here on out. You guys stand so tall against American chickens, and yet KFC never killed 100,000 Europeans. Come on lads, find yer backsides again for God's sake!

Source for all data above is a NYT article dated April 4 which itself sourced from FlightRadar and FlightAware
 
FLALEFTY
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue May 19, 2020 8:36 pm

Back on the subject of Mike Boyd, yesterday he published this little essay on his Boyd Group International China site:

https://www.boydgroupchina.com/the-ccp- ... l-or-else/
 
c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Tue May 19, 2020 9:21 pm

Elite wrote:
The whole Huawei debacle shows that while China is focused on the high tech and strategic industries, the rest of the world has lacked focus and lagged behind.

Huawei devices aren't particularly advanced compares to similar western companies. But they can make their staff and engineers work for much longer times at much less salary than their European counterpart. Thus making their cost, and thus their price, considerably lower than their counterpart in developed world, especially when there are times that the Chinese government provide assistance to their implementation in some countries which make their offer even more attractive.

If others in the world want to seriously compete with China, then it not just need to be more advanced, but also need to think about how to compete with their lower cost base.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed May 20, 2020 5:27 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
Back on the subject of Mike Boyd, yesterday he published this little essay on his Boyd Group International China site:

https://www.boydgroupchina.com/the-ccp- ... l-or-else/


Its funny how they bring "free speech" into a discussion involving the regime in Beijing.

Why is there even a boydgroupCHINA website?

Seems to me they made their bed, in now don't like laying in it.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
santi319
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed May 20, 2020 6:33 am

Start a blockage on China like the west does to Cuba or Iran. Enough is enough. Lets free Hong Kong while are at it as well..
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed May 20, 2020 7:20 am

santi319 wrote:
Start a blockage on China like the west does to Cuba or Iran. Enough is enough. Lets free Hong Kong while are at it as well..


Don´t need sanctions, people just need to stop buying stuff "Made in PRC". If you convince 1 Person every 10 days to stop buying their products, and convince them to do the same, the CCP is just about done by the end of the year.

But probably way to few people are willing to stop buying iPhones (Apple is the only non-Chinese Smartphone maker to produce in the PRC).

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed May 20, 2020 12:44 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Why is there even a boydgroupCHINA website?

Seems to me they made their bed, in now don't like laying in it.

Best regards
Thomas

Not sure about the background and rationale of this group, but it seems relatively common for companies like Facebook that loterally beg for market access in China and are willing to do anything for it, until they realize that even begging cannot allow them to access the market and would only fuel the growth of their domestic counterpart within China, they would change their direction, turn to law and order in the west, and hope these instruments can keep their Chinese competitors to the rulebooks.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Thu May 21, 2020 3:54 pm

wingman wrote:
I like scientists too. Unfortunately they were being silenced by direct threat as the outbreak first unfolded and they and doctors attempted to warn the Chinese people and the world. So what did the "bad actors" do and not do? I know what the most important bad actor in the US did and didn't do because it's on the record and our legal, government and journalistic frameworks make it impossible to hide. I want to understand the facts from China. Outside of sharing the genome and defective respirators they've not disclosed anything related to their handling of the outbreak. 1300 flights from China landed in the US during January as China downplayed the severity of Covid. No one knew what exactly we had on our hands because they weren't sharing the critical scientific or medical details. The one doctor that did try to share was silenced and then died (causing massive online outrage in China itself!). In the first half of January over 4000 people flew directly from Wuhan to the United States. Over 390,000 arrived in the US before Trump imposed his travel ban. How many went to Europe and elsewhere and what exactly did China know about the virus and its lethality while these flights happened? That outbound travel in January, especially from Wuhan, was the seed that led directly to the severity of the outbreak. Any chance at containment, the mitigation of death and the salvation of the global economy was lost in that month. What did the Chinese government know and when did they know it? These answers are demanded of the United States every time it screws the pooch. Well we never screwed the pooch quite this badly and yet many here seem more than willing give China a pass. I for one don't care that all of our electronics come from China or that England and France caused them so much grief in drug wars 170 years ago. Tiananmen, the South China Sea..those ships have sailed indeed. I hope we don't give them a third pass. Imagine what China would think getting away with this shit storm. They'd know the West has become so collectively weak and spineless that they and Russia would have total carte blanche to do whatever the hell they felt like from here on out. You guys stand so tall against American chickens, and yet KFC never killed 100,000 Europeans. Come on lads, find yer backsides again for God's sake!

Source for all data above is a NYT article dated April 4 which itself sourced from FlightRadar and FlightAware


Since the talk is about suing China/CCP, what law has been broken, exactly ? Is it established law that a country seeing a new virus must stop all outbound flights ? The US has much more cases of the virus than China ever had, has Trump banned US airlines from flying internationally ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Thu May 21, 2020 9:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
Since the talk is about suing China/CCP, what law has been broken, exactly ? Is it established law that a country seeing a new virus must stop all outbound flights ? The US has much more cases of the virus than China ever had, has Trump banned US airlines from flying internationally ?

The Chinese CCP government didn't just not leave their air traffic wide open. They also do so while underplaying the virus's humam to human transmission potential and threaten any countries who tries to close border because of it. By doing so they keep their international air traffic mostly nornal while they were impacted by the virus d hence enhancing the spread of the virus, instead of helping everyone around the world making informed decision on the virus which could have suppressed travel and spread.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Thu May 21, 2020 9:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
Since the talk is about suing China/CCP, what law has been broken, exactly ? Is it established law that a country seeing a new virus must stop all outbound flights ? The US has much more cases of the virus than China ever had, has Trump banned US airlines from flying internationally ?

The Chinese CCP government didn't just not leave their air traffic wide open. They also do so while underplaying the virus's humam to human transmission potential and threaten any countries who tries to close border because of it. By doing so they keep their international air traffic mostly nornal while they were impacted by the virus d hence enhancing the spread of the virus, instead of helping everyone around the world making informed decision on the virus which could have suppressed travel and spread.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 22, 2020 3:31 am

c933103 wrote:
The Chinese CCP government didn't just not leave their air traffic wide open. They also do so while underplaying the virus's humam to human transmission potential and threaten any countries who tries to close border because of it. By doing so they keep their international air traffic mostly nornal while they were impacted by the virus d hence enhancing the spread of the virus, instead of helping everyone around the world making informed decision on the virus which could have suppressed travel and spread.


That’s nonsense. The “China allowed international flights out of Wuhan to spread the virus” is a vicious and fake rumour (spread by Trump) that has no basis. It started when an internet blogger misread the flight status page on the Wuhan airport website:

We spoke to Ian Petchenik, the director of communications for Flightradar24, a global flight tracking service, and Petchenik confirmed that “there were no more normal, commercial flights” from Wuhan after Jan. 23. “They did stop people from going to the U.S. and to the rest of the world,” he said.


https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trump ... onspiracy/
 
c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 22, 2020 9:44 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The Chinese CCP government didn't just not leave their air traffic wide open. They also do so while underplaying the virus's humam to human transmission potential and threaten any countries who tries to close border because of it. By doing so they keep their international air traffic mostly nornal while they were impacted by the virus d hence enhancing the spread of the virus, instead of helping everyone around the world making informed decision on the virus which could have suppressed travel and spread.


That’s nonsense. The “China allowed international flights out of Wuhan to spread the virus” is a vicious and fake rumour (spread by Trump) that has no basis. It started when an internet blogger misread the flight status page on the Wuhan airport website:

We spoke to Ian Petchenik, the director of communications for Flightradar24, a global flight tracking service, and Petchenik confirmed that “there were no more normal, commercial flights” from Wuhan after Jan. 23. “They did stop people from going to the U.S. and to the rest of the world,” he said.


https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trump ... onspiracy/

January 23 is more than three weeks after they know the virus was spreading in Wuhan.
By January 23, there are already travellers who later known to be infected by novel coronavirus who travelled out of China to Europe, America and rest of Asia. You can say the closure of the airport on the 23rd after it have finished spreading the virus around (not saying if it is intentional or not).
And the closure of the Wuhan airport itself is also not that significant, because most of those infected travellers who travelled intercontinentally were transiting through other Chinese airports like PVG.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 22, 2020 10:45 am

c933103 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The Chinese CCP government didn't just not leave their air traffic wide open. They also do so while underplaying the virus's humam to human transmission potential and threaten any countries who tries to close border because of it. By doing so they keep their international air traffic mostly nornal while they were impacted by the virus d hence enhancing the spread of the virus, instead of helping everyone around the world making informed decision on the virus which could have suppressed travel and spread.


That’s nonsense. The “China allowed international flights out of Wuhan to spread the virus” is a vicious and fa

ke rumour (spread by Trump) that has no basis. It started when an internet blogger misread the flight status page on the Wuhan airport website:

We spoke to Ian Petchenik, the director of communications for Flightradar24, a global flight tracking service, and Petchenik confirmed that “there were no more normal, commercial flights” from Wuhan after Jan. 23. “They did stop people from going to the U.S. and to the rest of the world,” he said.


https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trump ... onspiracy/

January 23 is more than three weeks after they know the virus was spreading in Wuhan.
By January 23, there are already travellers who later known to be infected by novel coronavirus who travelled out of China to Europe, America and rest of Asia. You can say the closure of the airport on the 23rd after it have finished spreading the virus around (not saying if it is intentional or not).
And the closure of the Wuhan airport itself is also not that significant, because most of those infected travellers who travelled intercontinentally were transiting through other Chinese airports like PVG.


Please do humor us with a comprehensive list of all countries that stopped all outbound travel at a case count of 10.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 22, 2020 11:39 am

tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

That’s nonsense. The “China allowed international flights out of Wuhan to spread the virus” is a vicious and fa

ke rumour (spread by Trump) that has no basis. It started when an internet blogger misread the flight status page on the Wuhan airport website:



https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trump ... onspiracy/

January 23 is more than three weeks after they know the virus was spreading in Wuhan.
By January 23, there are already travellers who later known to be infected by novel coronavirus who travelled out of China to Europe, America and rest of Asia. You can say the closure of the airport on the 23rd after it have finished spreading the virus around (not saying if it is intentional or not).
And the closure of the Wuhan airport itself is also not that significant, because most of those infected travellers who travelled intercontinentally were transiting through other Chinese airports like PVG.


Please do humor us with a comprehensive list of all countries that stopped all outbound travel at a case count of 10.

Best regards
Thomas

The Chinese CCP government didn't just leave their air traffic wide open. They also do so while underplaying the virus's humam to human transmission potential and threaten any countries who tries to close border because of it. By doing so they keep their international air traffic mostly nornal while they were impacted by the virus d hence enhancing the spread of the virus, instead of helping everyone around the world making informed decision on the virus which could have suppressed travel and spread.

The key here is not that they didn't do anything by themselves, instead it's more about what they released caused everyone, including both individual travellers, transportation companoes like airlines, as well as government of countries around the world made misinformed decision.

Also, thay case count of 10s was also a false number as their hospitals were already stuffed with relevant patients in early to mid Jan
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 22, 2020 12:47 pm

c933103 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
January 23 is more than three weeks after they know the virus was spreading in Wuhan.
By January 23, there are already travellers who later known to be infected by novel coronavirus who travelled out of China to Europe, America and rest of Asia. You can say the closure of the airport on the 23rd after it have finished spreading the virus around (not saying if it is intentional or not).
And the closure of the Wuhan airport itself is also not that significant, because most of those infected travellers who travelled intercontinentally were transiting through other Chinese airports like PVG.


Please do humor us with a comprehensive list of all countries that stopped all outbound travel at a case count of 10.

Best regards
Thomas

The Chinese CCP government didn't just leave their air traffic wide open. They also do so while underplaying the virus's humam to human transmission potential and threaten any countries who tries to close border because of it. By doing so they keep their international air traffic mostly nornal while they were impacted by the virus d hence enhancing the spread of the virus, instead of helping everyone around the world making informed decision on the virus which could have suppressed travel and spread.

The key here is not that they didn't do anything by themselves, instead it's more about what they released caused everyone, including both individual travellers, transportation companoes like airlines, as well as government of countries around the world made misinformed decision.

Also, thay case count of 10s was also a false number as their hospitals were already stuffed with relevant patients in early to mid Jan


So you don't have any country that reacted like you want the PRC to be liable for not doing.

This was known to be an emergency situation no later than 31st of December: https://www.dw.com/en/china-investigate ... a-51843861

Please do share your sources that it being fairly good in human to human transmission at let's say January 10th, when the info out of China was its probably not so contagious that way.
https://www.dw.com/en/china-one-dead-fr ... a-51961831

And why would they knee cap their own customer base and create an incentive to get supply chains closer to home and independent of them? Especially since it would only work if their targets don't act competently?

And since their data is so fake, please do explain how their fake data looks exactly like the data of later real outbreaks? Under reporting, sure, since there wasn't really a good test before mid January, but if it was systematically faked, it would look noticeable different from elsewhere.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Cerecl
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 22, 2020 12:56 pm

c933103 wrote:
The key here is not that they didn't do anything by themselves, instead it's more about what they released caused everyone, including both individual travellers, transportation companies like airlines, as well as government of countries around the world made misinformed decision.
Also, thay case count of 10s was also a false number as their hospitals were already stuffed with relevant patients in early to mid Jan


It took a while for people to understand that they were dealing with the worst pandemic in decades and for cases to emerge.

Talking about misinformed decision, even in February 2020 Donald Trump was saying COVID-19 was a hoax and the UK government decided not to impose restrictions on movements. Japanese government did not quarantine all Chinese visitor until March. Hard to see how these decisions can be blamed on the Chinese government.

Airlines that still operated flights to China after Jan 30 WHO declaration included (not exhaustive list): AC, NH, OZ, CX, CI, EK, EY, BR, AY, JL, KL, SQ, TG, TK. Again, hindsight is 20/20.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 22, 2020 1:23 pm

Cerecl wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The key here is not that they didn't do anything by themselves, instead it's more about what they released caused everyone, including both individual travellers, transportation companies like airlines, as well as government of countries around the world made misinformed decision.
Also, thay case count of 10s was also a false number as their hospitals were already stuffed with relevant patients in early to mid Jan


It took a while for people to understand that they were dealing with the worst pandemic in decades and for cases to emerge.

Talking about misinformed decision, even in February 2020 Donald Trump was saying COVID-19 was a hoax and the UK government decided not to impose restrictions on movements. Japanese government did not quarantine all Chinese visitor until March. Hard to see how these decisions can be blamed on the Chinese government.

Airlines that still operated flights to China after Jan 30 WHO declaration included (not exhaustive list): AC, NH, OZ, CX, CI, EK, EY, BR, AY, JL, KL, SQ, TG, TK. Again, hindsight is 20/20.


Add to that how well Taiwan handled Corona despite its massive traffic with the PRC. So that isn't a decisive factor anyways.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Fri May 22, 2020 2:52 pm

I will repeat, what law has been broken ? Isn't the US big on law and lawyers ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Sun May 24, 2020 2:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

So you don't have any country that reacted like you want the PRC to be liable for not doing.

Well, there is one, North Korea, which have enforced nation-wide lockdown and total suspension of international movement from mid-January, despite reported "zero" cases.
The "zero" they reported is in the same nature as the "41" cases reported by China in early January.

tommy1808 wrote:
This was known to be an emergency situation no later than 31st of December: https://www.dw.com/en/china-investigate ... a-51843861

It was known to be an emergency situation, however the official declaration was not. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... k-in-wuhan
Your report claimed they sent experts in to investigate the situation as case count are rising sharply, yes, but what happened after they sent experts in? The case count increased from 27 to 41 in next few days, and then stopped here for two weeks until January 17 when they started to report dozens then hundreds then thousands of new case. That is despite hospital in Wuhan are getting e packed day after day in the two weeks period between January 3 to 17, and arrested reporters trying to get picture of situation in hospital in Wuhan.
tommy1808 wrote:
Please do share your sources that it being fairly good in human to human transmission at let's say January 10th,

As also mentioned in the link above, initially they tried to blame the seafood market as the virus's source and all patients have been to there, but at least as of early January there were already people with same symptom who have never been to the market being reported at hospital.

tommy1808 wrote:
Please do share your sources that it being fairly good in human to human transmission at let's say January 10th, when the info out of China was its probably not so contagious that way.
https://www.dw.com/en/china-one-dead-fr ... a-51961831

That IS exactly what people are troubled by China and trying to put blame on them.
The understanding on the virus in China at the time was that it is a SARS-like virus with high similarity to SARS, a disease that have a fatality rate of 15% and infected thousands across the globe and countless more within China, as can be seen in the leaks that was disseminated on December 30, 2019, and most of the patients they contained at the time was also people with severe pneumonia, basically the same symptom as SARS. Yet they still claimed it's probably not so contagious using terms like "limited human to human transmission" even after they started reporting exponential growth in case number in the third week of January.

tommy1808 wrote:
And why would they knee cap their own customer base and create an incentive to get supply chains closer to home and independent of them? Especially since it would only work if their targets don't act competently?

I won't say they are doing so explicitly to hurt other countries. Instead I would say they're doing so out of their habit of hiding bad data and unhonorable events until they're can no longer be concealed.
tommy1808 wrote:
And since their data is so fake, please do explain how their fake data looks exactly like the data of later real outbreaks? Under reporting, sure, since there wasn't really a good test before mid January, but if it was systematically faked, it would look noticeable different from elsewhere.

The case definition of the time before tests became available was that, any patients who have matching symptoms and cannot be diagnosed as other diseases will count as patient of the disease, so unavailability of test shouldn't prevent them from identifying severe patients, except during implementation an additional criteria was being inserted to report only cases that have been to the seafood market.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Sun May 24, 2020 3:14 pm

Cerecl wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The key here is not that they didn't do anything by themselves, instead it's more about what they released caused everyone, including both individual travellers, transportation companies like airlines, as well as government of countries around the world made misinformed decision.
Also, thay case count of 10s was also a false number as their hospitals were already stuffed with relevant patients in early to mid Jan


It took a while for people to understand that they were dealing with the worst pandemic in decades and for cases to emerge.

Talking about misinformed decision, even in February 2020 Donald Trump was saying COVID-19 was a hoax and the UK government decided not to impose restrictions on movements. Japanese government did not quarantine all Chinese visitor until March. Hard to see how these decisions can be blamed on the Chinese government.

Airlines that still operated flights to China after Jan 30 WHO declaration included (not exhaustive list): AC, NH, OZ, CX, CI, EK, EY, BR, AY, JL, KL, SQ, TG, TK. Again, hindsight is 20/20.

I would repeat my previous reply with a different highlight:

The key here is not that they (=Chinese government) didn't do anything by themselves, instead it's more about what they(=Chinese government) released caused everyone, including both individual travellers, transportation companies like airlines, as well as government of countries around the world made misinformed decision.

Chinese government's decision was not misinformed. It is other countries' government being misinformed by China. Chinese government simply conceal the true data and released a more beautiful data and explanation that made the virus appeared as if doesn't need the actually necessary measures to deal with, no matter whether it is just for face or with other worse intent.

tommy1808 wrote:
Add to that how well Taiwan handled Corona despite its massive traffic with the PRC. So that isn't a decisive factor anyways.

Best regards
Thomas

Simple. Taiwan didn't trust PRC so they treated it with sufficient caution to be able to avoid domestic outbreak. Most other countries, including almost all major Western countries, failed to apply critical thinking to data and word released by PRC and thus only started acting after outbreak have already occurred domestically and give them a look of what the epidemic is actually like..
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c933103
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Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Mon May 25, 2020 7:33 pm

* The word "released" in my previous replies, was referring to information and communication released by Chinese governments, instead of anything material
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Cerecl
Posts: 613
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed May 27, 2020 10:13 am

c933103 wrote:
[
I would repeat my previous reply with a different highlight:

The key here is not that they (=Chinese government) didn't do anything by themselves, instead it's more about what they(=Chinese government) released caused everyone, including both individual travellers, transportation companies like airlines, as well as government of countries around the world made misinformed decision.

Chinese government's decision was not misinformed. It is other countries' government being misinformed by China. Chinese government simply conceal the true data and released a more beautiful data and explanation that made the virus appeared as if doesn't need the actually necessary measures to deal with, no matter whether it is just for face or with other worse intent.


Repeating your claim, with or without highlighting, doesn't make it true. No amount of highlighting would change the following:
1. COVID-19 is associated with a much longer incubation period, and there were many asymptomatic and minimally symptomatic cases. The initial testing accuracy was also not ideal. This led to an underestimation of cases and severity of the crisis. If I am not wrong the outbreak in Lombardy can be traced to a person who returned to Italy on 21/1/2020, but the outbreak was not apparent until February.
2. There have been many examples, as outlined in the my last post, of governments/airlines making decisions which now appear misguided or misinformed in February, weeks AFTER the unprecedented move in living memory to lock down a major city (and later the whole province) and the WHO declaration of a pandemic a week later. There are even people in leadership positions denying or minimising the severity of the outbreak to this day. I'd love to see how you try to spin these decision as somehow China's fault.

Clearly, at the beginning of the outbreak the local government did not appreciate/understand just how disastrous COVID-19 would be and made multiple decisions that are plainly wrong. The decisions taken later in January curtailed the spread of the virus in a wider area, at the expense of Wuhan/Hubei. Every government in the world received the same report from China, it is whether grown-ups (or at least prepared to listen to experts) or idiotic morons are in charge of the government that makes the difference between 100 or 100000 fatalities.
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c933103
Posts: 4016
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Boyd Group Intl. suggests that US airports sue China's CCP

Wed May 27, 2020 4:51 pm

Cerecl wrote:
c933103 wrote:
[
I would repeat my previous reply with a different highlight:

The key here is not that they (=Chinese government) didn't do anything by themselves, instead it's more about what they(=Chinese government) released caused everyone, including both individual travellers, transportation companies like airlines, as well as government of countries around the world made misinformed decision.

Chinese government's decision was not misinformed. It is other countries' government being misinformed by China. Chinese government simply conceal the true data and released a more beautiful data and explanation that made the virus appeared as if doesn't need the actually necessary measures to deal with, no matter whether it is just for face or with other worse intent.


Repeating your claim, with or without highlighting, doesn't make it true. No amount of highlighting would change the following:
1. COVID-19 is associated with a much longer incubation period, and there were many asymptomatic and minimally symptomatic cases. The initial testing accuracy was also not ideal. This led to an underestimation of cases and severity of the crisis. If I am not wrong the outbreak in Lombardy can be traced to a person who returned to Italy on 21/1/2020, but the outbreak was not apparent until February.

The delay in testing and discovery cab explain why it was only detected in Wuhan from December 2019 despite street rumors of it had been out warlier than that, but that still couldn't explain why they told the world it's under control from end of December to late January.

2. There have been many examples, as outlined in the my last post, of governments/airlines making decisions which now appear misguided or misinformed in February, weeks AFTER the unprecedented move in living memory to lock down a major city (and later the whole province) and the WHO declaration of a pandemic a week later. There are even people in leadership positions denying or minimising the severity of the outbreak to this day. I'd love to see how you try to spin these decision as somehow China's fault.

Even thought China have locked down the entire province and the WHO declaration of it as a public health emergency, China still continues to warn other countries that it's not warranted to enforce additional traffic restrictions against people from China, the statement on linited human to human transmission still continued for quite some times, and the pandemic status was not declared, and WHO under China control have also recommended against numerous disease control and prevention measures.
The result of some leaders around the world who're dumb enough to still underestimate the severity of the pandemic reflect just how successful the Chinese information works have been on spreading misinformation down into the heart of the people that it even overshadowed the real world image.

Clearly, at the beginning of the outbreak the local government did not appreciate/understand just how disastrous COVID-19 would be and made multiple decisions that are plainly wrong. The decisions taken later in January curtailed the spread of the virus in a wider area, at the expense of Wuhan/Hubei. Every government in the world received the same report from China, it is whether grown-ups (or at least prepared to listen to experts) or idiotic morons are in charge of the government that makes the difference between 100 or 100000 fatalities.

Then why do you think East Asian and Oceanian countries are generally more successful at dealing with the virus?
Of course quality of leaders make difference, but there are also other aspects, like:
- Accuracy of information gathered by government, and proper judgement on the information accuracy - No matter what kind of expert you have and how much you're willing to listen to experts opinion, if the information which experts used to form opinion are false then they wouldn't be able to give out proper opinion
- Citizens and media awareness - Even in some East Asian countries where their government barely did anything, their situation are still better than many countries in the Western world where their government have been trying hard to enforce various lock down measures. I believe a big difference is that geography have caused media in the region to be willing to actually attenpts investigating what's occurring within China and report actual information about the disease, and people are also willing to read and trist those reports and take corresponding measures, unlike western media (both lefitist, rightist, centralist) which still rely a lot on what Chinese government officially publish amd take them as fact, and the population also.willing to believe the information stated on their media from.the government of China.
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