Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 9
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10414
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 7:37 pm

And meanwhile, Sen Ryan is telling Dr. Fauci that his advice on the situation, maybe shouldn't be followed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/dr-anth ... virus.html

I do like the Dr's response.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 7:53 pm

Tugger wrote:
And meanwhile, Sen Ryan is telling Dr. Fauci that his advice on the situation, maybe shouldn't be followed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/dr-anth ... virus.html

I do like the Dr's response.

Tugg



It is sad to see that the GOP is prioritizing Political optics over sound health data.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 7:57 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Fauci is testifying that opening the economy will result in needless deaths, and right now there are many rural hotspots occurring where the local authorities are flouting federal and state guidelines.

With all due respect, that is not at all what Fauci is saying. He cautioned against reopening too quickly, and that strong contact tracing protocols and social distancing measures should be in place to prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed.


Really?

https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-warns-quic ... 13231.html

Really. Read his full remarks.

Also from that article:
Dr. Anthony Fauci, a leading member of the coronavirus task force, cautioned in congressional testimony that a rushed lifting of coronavirus lockdowns could lead the virus to return with redoubled force.


And

“All roads back to work and school go through testing,” he said, downplaying expectations that vaccines and treatments would arrive shortly. Fauci made much the same point, calling expectations of a biomedical solution by summer’s end “a bridge too far.”
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 8:04 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:

With all due respect, that is not at all what Fauci is saying. He cautioned against reopening too quickly, and that strong contact tracing protocols and social distancing measures should be in place to prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed.


Really?

https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-warns-quic ... 13231.html

Really. Read his full remarks.

Also from that article:
Dr. Anthony Fauci, a leading member of the coronavirus task force, cautioned in congressional testimony that a rushed lifting of coronavirus lockdowns could lead the virus to return with redoubled force.


And

“All roads back to work and school go through testing,” he said, downplaying expectations that vaccines and treatments would arrive shortly. Fauci made much the same point, calling expectations of a biomedical solution by summer’s end “a bridge too far.”


and that goes against what I said how? Maybe you haven't paid attention to all of Fauci's interviews.

“If we skip over the checkpoints in the guidelines to: ‘Open America Again,’ then we risk the danger of multiple outbreaks throughout the country. This will not only result in needless suffering and death, but would actually set us back on our quest to return to normal,” wrote Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.



https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/coronav ... death.html
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8281
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 8:21 pm

This mixed messaging, maybe politically motivated but making life difficult to Governors, the actual people who have to sign the executive orders.

What's up with Musk? Is he trying to get out of the fourth relationship using COVID-19 excuse? There is a new baby at home, and he wants to work on a shop floor and get arrested, no data on shop floor transmissions but there is enough data about prison system transmission, even if he is desk booked.
All posts are just opinions.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 8:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Really. Read his full remarks.

Also from that article:
Dr. Anthony Fauci, a leading member of the coronavirus task force, cautioned in congressional testimony that a rushed lifting of coronavirus lockdowns could lead the virus to return with redoubled force.


And

“All roads back to work and school go through testing,” he said, downplaying expectations that vaccines and treatments would arrive shortly. Fauci made much the same point, calling expectations of a biomedical solution by summer’s end “a bridge too far.”


and that goes against what I said how?

Because you said:
Fauci is testifying that opening the economy will result in needless deaths

Which is not what he was saying. Once again, he was cautioning against a rushed or ill-prepared relaxing of measures.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 8:26 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Really. Read his full remarks.

Also from that article:


And



and that goes against what I said how?

Because you said:
Fauci is testifying that opening the economy will result in needless deaths

Which is not what he was saying. Once again, he was cautioning against a rushed or ill-prepared relaxing of measures.



Why would he caution against opening too early?

Answer.
Because it will result in needless deaths.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 8:58 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

and that goes against what I said how?

Because you said:
Fauci is testifying that opening the economy will result in needless deaths

Which is not what he was saying. Once again, he was cautioning against a rushed or ill-prepared relaxing of measures.



Why would he caution against opening too early?

Answer.
Because it will result in needless deaths.

Right, but that is not what you said. Your implication was that he was testifying against any sort of reopening of the economy.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 8:59 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Because you said:

Which is not what he was saying. Once again, he was cautioning against a rushed or ill-prepared relaxing of measures.



Why would he caution against opening too early?

Answer.
Because it will result in needless deaths.

Right, but that is not what you said. Your implication was that he was testifying against any sort of reopening of the economy.



That wasn't my point. Sorry if I mispoke, but he is trying to be cautious where as the GOP is trying to rush this to recover Trump's "economy story" The GOP hasn't thought out what kind of disasters are around the corner.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8489
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 10:28 pm

South Korea’s Coronavirus Efforts Spark Privacy Concerns in Gay Community

Responding to fresh outbreak, health officials have sought to track down thousands of Seoul nightclub patrons, many of whom fear being outed

https://www.wsj.com/articles/south-kore ... 1589306659
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10414
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 11:51 pm

An interesting twist:
In interviews with a dozen current and former government officials and cybersecurity experts over the past month, many described a “free-for-all” that has spread even to countries with only rudimentary cyberability.

“This is a global pandemic, but unfortunately countries are not treating it as a global problem,” said Justin Fier, a former national security intelligence analyst who is now the director of cyberintelligence at Darktrace, a cybersecurity firm. “Everyone is conducting widespread intelligence gathering — on pharmaceutical research, PPE orders, response — to see who is making progress.”
[...]
over the past eight weeks, several nation states — some familiar, like Iran and China, and others not so familiar, like Vietnam and South Korea — have taken advantage of softer security as millions of workers have suddenly been forced to work from home.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/10/us/p ... cking.html

And regarding Dr. Fauci and his comments today, he did note that he really only looks at this and advises from a public health perspective: "I don't give advice about economic things, I don't give advice about anything other than public health." And that other people advise on anything else, like economics.

I am reflecting on this to highlight that no overall plan or solution can take only one viewpoint, that a well balanced approach will have to consider many aspects. Public well being being the primary goal "health" alone is not the only criteria within that. (Otherwise why would we allow anything that might increase death or decrease health overall. People need to also do the normal things, eat the foods and imbibe drinks, and perform recreation that they find "nourishing to their well being", even though so many of these really impact life and health.)

So I do not envy any of those that are stepping up to actually propose or impose their plan for getting the USA or their community or state to function for and serve their citizens needs again. It is imperfect and happening in fits and starts. Hopefully it will turn out for the best with all elements properly embraced.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4109
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 1:32 am

Let me toss out a ball park figure. Washington State has just short of 8 million people. As we gradually open up the state for more economic activity what is the upper limits of extra deaths a day? I am guessing just under 10, which still is a lot, 3650 a year, several times auto death accidents a year. One a day or less is impossibly low? The economy shutting down likely also has an associated death toll, although I haven't seen estimates.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
speedking
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:00 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:55 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Let me toss out a ball park figure. Washington State has just short of 8 million people. As we gradually open up the state for more economic activity what is the upper limits of extra deaths a day? I am guessing just under 10, which still is a lot, 3650 a year, several times auto death accidents a year. One a day or less is impossibly low? The economy shutting down likely also has an associated death toll, although I haven't seen estimates.


"The 100,000 or so who will die in 2020 from this virus is just a prelude to the death and destruction to follow. The trigger for the climactic phase of this Fourth Turning is not a virus that will not kill 99.97% of the American population, but the economic consequences of the over-reaction and authoritarian response to the virus."

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article67103.html
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10414
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:28 am

speedking wrote:
"The 100,000 or so who will die in 2020 from this virus is just a prelude to the death and destruction to follow. The trigger for the climactic phase of this Fourth Turning is not a virus that will not kill 99.97% of the American population, but the economic consequences of the over-reaction and authoritarian response to the virus."

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article67103.html

Wow another whack-a-mole finance mixed with conspiracy website. They even have an article about the pope seeking a global communist regime!

Pretty lame.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:32 am

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Fauci is testifying that opening the economy will result in needless deaths, and right now there are many rural hotspots occurring where the local authorities are flouting federal and state guidelines.

With all due respect, that is not at all what Fauci is saying. He cautioned against reopening too quickly, and that strong contact tracing protocols and social distancing measures should be in place to prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed.


Really?

https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-warns-quic ... 13231.html

Why else would the GOP sit there any attack his statements on opening the economy?


Because the GOP is in favor of returning to business as usual ASAP, preferably without any costly measures such as social distancing, testing and tracing, because stock values are more important than the lives of the peones?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11971
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Coronavirus Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:38 am

Francoflier wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:

With all due respect, that is not at all what Fauci is saying. He cautioned against reopening too quickly, and that strong contact tracing protocols and social distancing measures should be in place to prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed.


Really?

https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-warns-quic ... 13231.html

Why else would the GOP sit there any attack his statements on opening the economy?


Because the GOP is in favor of returning to business as usual ASAP, preferably without any costly measures such as social distancing, testing and tracing, because stock values are more important than the lives of the peones?


That sounds about right. They know what the prescription is, but don’t care.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
olle
Posts: 2083
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 11:12 am

EU seems to open up internal borders step by step;



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 11711.html
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 1:50 pm

Interesting note on how some areas are still rapidly spreading Covid within the US.

https://whotv.com/news/coronavirus/covi ... new-cases/

"The report issued May 7 shows COVID-19 cases increasing by 1,467 from the previous seven days in Des Moines. That is a 94.3% increase. That ranks Des Moines eighth out of ten cities nationwide in increased rate of cases, according to the data.

According to the data reported by the White House Coronavirus Task Force, the ten top areas recorded surges of 72.4 percent or greater over a seven-day period compared to the previous week. They include Nashville, Tennessee; Des Moines, Iowa; Amarillo, Texas; and — atop the list, with a 650 percent increase — Central City, Kentucky.

Polk County experienced a 107.3 percent increase in new COVID-19 cases (970 cases) in the seven-day time frame, according to the White House data. That also ranks Polk County eighth out of all counties in the United States where the virus is spreading fastest. "
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:12 pm

casinterest wrote:
Interesting note on how some areas are still rapidly spreading Covid within the US.

https://whotv.com/news/coronavirus/covi ... new-cases/

"The report issued May 7 shows COVID-19 cases increasing by 1,467 from the previous seven days in Des Moines. That is a 94.3% increase. That ranks Des Moines eighth out of ten cities nationwide in increased rate of cases, according to the data.

According to the data reported by the White House Coronavirus Task Force, the ten top areas recorded surges of 72.4 percent or greater over a seven-day period compared to the previous week. They include Nashville, Tennessee; Des Moines, Iowa; Amarillo, Texas; and — atop the list, with a 650 percent increase — Central City, Kentucky.

Polk County experienced a 107.3 percent increase in new COVID-19 cases (970 cases) in the seven-day time frame, according to the White House data. That also ranks Polk County eighth out of all counties in the United States where the virus is spreading fastest. "

I think focusing on case count alone is going to make your hair fall out..particularly when it's so dependent on the ubiquity and frequency of testing and the fact that half of cases will go under the radar. It's hospitalizations and deaths that are more informative.

COVID will, of course, continue to spread in the months and years to come and will only stop if an effective vaccine is ever developed.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:27 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
I think focusing on case count alone is going to make your hair fall out..particularly when it's so dependent on the ubiquity and frequency of testing and the fact that half of cases will go under the radar. It's hospitalizations and deaths that are more informative.

COVID will, of course, continue to spread in the months and years to come and will only stop if an effective vaccine is ever developed.


:checkmark:

Death rates and hospitalizations are the only reliable metrics.

If we start focusing on the overall number of cases, the generalized, media-amplified panic will never subside and we'll never come out of our holes.

Death rates keep going down in most nations, which is good news.
Hospitals are not being overwhelmed as much as before and are getting more efficient at treating patients earlier and better. Many nations are finding their own ways of more effectively fighting the disease through improved treatment methods.

Things are progressing and medical science, both on the front lines and in research centers, is making its way towards a solution.

It won't stop the fact the the virus will keep spreading no matter what we do, and if we're scared of that fact, we might as well give up as a species.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:34 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting note on how some areas are still rapidly spreading Covid within the US.

https://whotv.com/news/coronavirus/covi ... new-cases/

"The report issued May 7 shows COVID-19 cases increasing by 1,467 from the previous seven days in Des Moines. That is a 94.3% increase. That ranks Des Moines eighth out of ten cities nationwide in increased rate of cases, according to the data.

According to the data reported by the White House Coronavirus Task Force, the ten top areas recorded surges of 72.4 percent or greater over a seven-day period compared to the previous week. They include Nashville, Tennessee; Des Moines, Iowa; Amarillo, Texas; and — atop the list, with a 650 percent increase — Central City, Kentucky.

Polk County experienced a 107.3 percent increase in new COVID-19 cases (970 cases) in the seven-day time frame, according to the White House data. That also ranks Polk County eighth out of all counties in the United States where the virus is spreading fastest. "

I think focusing on case count alone is going to make your hair fall out..particularly when it's so dependent on the ubiquity and frequency of testing and the fact that half of cases will go under the radar. It's hospitalizations and deaths that are more informative.

COVID will, of course, continue to spread in the months and years to come and will only stop if an effective vaccine is ever developed.



Case count is important as a leading indicator. Deaths trail by 10-14 days. if the case count is due to more testing, so be it, but if not it is a leading indicator of a problem
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
mad99
Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:33 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:38 pm

Here in spain they’ve tested a large group of people and the infection rate results look to be low, like less than 10%. So the talk of loads of people having it and not knowing it might not be true.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:39 pm

Francoflier wrote:
If we start focusing on the overall number of cases, the generalized, media-amplified panic will never subside and we'll never come out of our holes.

That or people eventually just become so exhausted, throw their hands up, decide to stop caring and carry on living their lives. I think that is the more likely scenario...people growing fatigued and ultimately making their own risk judgments in their day-to-day lives.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10414
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:50 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
COVID will, of course, continue to spread in the months and years to come and will only stop if an effective vaccine is ever developed.

And even with a vaccine it will still spread, it just won't incapacitate since the immune system will respond immediately (well that's the plan).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12901
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:53 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
If we start focusing on the overall number of cases, the generalized, media-amplified panic will never subside and we'll never come out of our holes.

That or people eventually just become so exhausted, throw their hands up, decide to stop caring and carry on living their lives. I think that is the more likely scenario...people growing fatigued and ultimately making their own risk judgments in their day-to-day lives.


Yup. Four about 4 weeks, until bodies start to pile again. Good look getting people out of the house after that, and you don't need all to many people to stop spending and going out to trash an economy.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:58 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
If we start focusing on the overall number of cases, the generalized, media-amplified panic will never subside and we'll never come out of our holes.

That or people eventually just become so exhausted, throw their hands up, decide to stop caring and carry on living their lives. I think that is the more likely scenario...people growing fatigued and ultimately making their own risk judgments in their day-to-day lives.


Yup. Four about 4 weeks, until bodies start to pile again. Good look getting people out of the house after that, and you don't need all to many people to stop spending and going out to trash an economy.

Best regards
Thomas

Nah, because in such a scenario eventually people wouldn't even have a shelter to retreat to or food to feed themselves with.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:05 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting note on how some areas are still rapidly spreading Covid within the US.

https://whotv.com/news/coronavirus/covi ... new-cases/


I think focusing on case count alone is going to make your hair fall out..particularly when it's so dependent on the ubiquity and frequency of testing and the fact that half of cases will go under the radar. It's hospitalizations and deaths that are more informative.

COVID will, of course, continue to spread in the months and years to come and will only stop if an effective vaccine is ever developed.



Case count is important as a leading indicator. Deaths trail by 10-14 days. if the case count is due to more testing, so be it, but if not it is a leading indicator of a problem

It's an important indicator. You can't just dismiss differences in testing when that's going to hugely impact your ability to compare one region to another.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:10 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I think focusing on case count alone is going to make your hair fall out..particularly when it's so dependent on the ubiquity and frequency of testing and the fact that half of cases will go under the radar. It's hospitalizations and deaths that are more informative.

COVID will, of course, continue to spread in the months and years to come and will only stop if an effective vaccine is ever developed.



Case count is important as a leading indicator. Deaths trail by 10-14 days. if the case count is due to more testing, so be it, but if not it is a leading indicator of a problem

It's an important indicator. You can't just dismiss differences in testing when that's going to hugely impact your ability to compare one region to another.


You can unless they explicitly state it. The issue is that positives are a leading indicator. Deaths and hospitalization rates are trailing indicators.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8489
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:18 pm

mad99 wrote:
Here in spain they’ve tested a large group of people and the infection rate results look to be low, like less than 10%. So the talk of loads of people having it and not knowing it might not be true.


According to what I’m reading, Spain has 229,000 confirmed cases. If just under 10% or so of Spain’s population has had it, this would actually confirm a massive under representation of total cases.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8489
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:24 pm

Spain’s population: 47 million

10% is 4.7 million

Spain Confirmed: 229,000

That’s 1 in 20 cases actually discovered.

For reference, GLOBAL confirmed cases: 4.3 million
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 6:04 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Case count is important as a leading indicator. Deaths trail by 10-14 days. if the case count is due to more testing, so be it, but if not it is a leading indicator of a problem

It's an important indicator. You can't just dismiss differences in testing when that's going to hugely impact your ability to compare one region to another.


You can unless they explicitly state it. The issue is that positives are a leading indicator. Deaths and hospitalization rates are trailing indicators.

It's a leading indicator, but not the only indicator that should be looked at. An increase in 500 cases is something to take note of, but if those 500 additional positives are only now surfacing because the state was able to further ramp up testing capacity last week, that's really less of a concern than if we were seeing a continued upward trend in hospitalizations or deaths.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 6:13 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
It's an important indicator. You can't just dismiss differences in testing when that's going to hugely impact your ability to compare one region to another.


You can unless they explicitly state it. The issue is that positives are a leading indicator. Deaths and hospitalization rates are trailing indicators.

It's a leading indicator, but not the only indicator that should be looked at. An increase in 500 cases is something to take note of, but if those 500 additional positives are only now surfacing because the state was able to further ramp up testing capacity last week, that's really less of a concern than if we were seeing a continued upward trend in hospitalizations or deaths.


Prepare for the worst. With the opening of economies outbreaks have to be monitored., and they can't all be attributed to "increased testing".
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
speedking
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:00 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 7:10 pm

Tugger wrote:
speedking wrote:
"The 100,000 or so who will die in 2020 from this virus is just a prelude to the death and destruction to follow. The trigger for the climactic phase of this Fourth Turning is not a virus that will not kill 99.97% of the American population, but the economic consequences of the over-reaction and authoritarian response to the virus."

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article67103.html

Wow another whack-a-mole finance mixed with conspiracy website. They even have an article about the pope seeking a global communist regime!

Pretty lame.

Tugg


I think you should kill the message, not the messenger? And the message was not about the Pope.
 
olle
Posts: 2083
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 7:15 pm

Who consider that we might need to live with covid 4-5 years.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10414
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:27 pm

To me, I get annoyed at overly-cautious, impossible to meet, non-science based criteria being imposed for anything, and that of course goes for the COVID-19 "reopening". My current example in California that I keep waiting for Newsom to correct is the "no deaths in 14 days, only one new case per 10,000 people". I'd love to see the facts on how they came up with that one since it is essentially impossible to meet with any other flu virus. Just the "normal flu" averages just under 1 death per day over a full year. And that is for people under 65, add over 65 and the number is much higher (based on the 2017 to 2019 flu season in California). And of course the number of cases is vastly higher.

I am fine with protective measures and putting in place a series of fact based goal posts derived from the current science on the virus. But why is it OK for one disease to kill people and we are OK and move to an acceptable process but not for COVID19? I get the R factor and transmissiblity and the risk to older people and those with underlying conditions, but all those things are also in place with the normal flu. To me, just pulling number out of the air, is would seem the death rate will be more than one per day on average and the infection rate consequently higher relative to that.

Unfortunately I suspect it is "good look politics" that is driving the unreal number requirement ("We can't have people dying! It would look bad and like I didn't do my job.) I'm not sure the proper way to manage this. Honestly it would be interesting to bend Dr. Fauci's ear on this, to see what he would think will be a death rate from COVID with good controls in place.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:34 pm

Tugger wrote:
To me, I get annoyed at overly-cautious, impossible to meet, non-science based criteria being imposed for anything, and that of course goes for the COVID-19 "reopening". My current example in California that I keep waiting for Newsom to correct is the "no deaths in 14 days, only one new case per 10,000 people". I'd love to see the facts on how they came up with that one since it is essentially impossible to meet with any other flu virus. Just the "normal flu" averages just under 1 death per day over a full year. And that is for people under 65. (That is from the 2017 to 2019 flu season in California.) And of course the number of cases is vastly higher.

I am fine with protective measures and putting in place a series of fact based goal posts derived from the current science on the virus. But why is it OK for one disease to kill people and we are OK and move to an acceptable process but not for COVID19? I get the R factor and transmissiblity and the risk to older people and those with underlying conditions, but all those things are also in place with the normal flu. To me, just pulling number out of the air, is would seem the death rate will be more than one per day on average and the infection rate consequently higher relative to that.

Unfortunately I suspect it is "good look politics" that is driving the unreal number requirement ("We can't have people dying! It would look bad and like I didn't do my job.) I'm not sure the proper way to manage this. Honestly it would be interesting to bend Dr. Fauci's ear on this, to see what he would think will be a death rate from COVID with good controls in place.

Tugg


I saw that too. No deaths for 14 days. And a lock down till July in LA. Really this is what I have said for a long time, some politicians and bureaucrats don't like to give away power that simple.

About Dr. Fauci, he will tell you what he thinks from a epidemiologist perspective, he will tell you to keep the lock downs for ever and definitively if you can. Because he is only going to give you advice on what he knows, and he has no knowledge about anything else but public health policy on diseases. That's his expertise. That's why he said yesterday he knows nothing about https://www.axios.com/rand-paul-anthony ... 53409.html

Too much power too much policy decision making has been vested upon Dr. Fauci already, time to move on, taking precautions measures to minimize impact, but keeping everything closed, people inside till a vaccine comes out, its an impossible and unsustainable goal no one is actually shooting for at this time.

Feel sorry for Californians, this will only make things worse for that state.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10414
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:48 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
And a lock down till July in LA.

Many people are misconstruing this so just so people are clear: This as stated is not fully accurate, people are not stuck in their home with minimal businesses open etc. till then. Dr. Ferrer(?) said LA would be under health orders likely until then. Current orders will change as needed, modified as things open up and more services and activities are reengaged for the greater public. With new exceptions or requirements (spacing is restaurants, N95 masks for salons, whatever) being offered along with said easing of current restrictions.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
lowwkjax
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:52 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:52 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Spain’s population: 47 million

10% is 4.7 million

Spain Confirmed: 229,000

That’s 1 in 20 cases actually discovered.

For reference, GLOBAL confirmed cases: 4.3 million


Yet another antibody-study that proves that the death rate of this disease has been highly overestimated. Even in Spain which got hit pretty badly as we all would agree, this number shows a death rate of 0.46%. And that includes a lot of deaths which occurred way before doctors were able to find out about better treatments ... just saying...
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10414
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:59 pm

lowwkjax wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Spain’s population: 47 million

10% is 4.7 million

Spain Confirmed: 229,000

That’s 1 in 20 cases actually discovered.

For reference, GLOBAL confirmed cases: 4.3 million


Yet another antibody-study that proves that the death rate of this disease has been highly overestimated. Even in Spain which got hit pretty badly as we all would agree, this number shows a death rate of 0.46%. And that includes a lot of deaths which occurred way before doctors were able to find out about better treatments ... just saying...

Do remember it isn't just about the death rate. It is really about the impact to those whose are infected and what it does to them as well as if those people then need to be treated and how that affects the health system and its capacity. One person may die but if 10,000 had to be admitted and tended to it would be bad. That hasn't happened, solely due the lockdowns and lack of fast transmission of infection.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
marcelh
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 9:17 pm

Tugger wrote:
lowwkjax wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Spain’s population: 47 million

10% is 4.7 million

Spain Confirmed: 229,000

That’s 1 in 20 cases actually discovered.

For reference, GLOBAL confirmed cases: 4.3 million


Yet another antibody-study that proves that the death rate of this disease has been highly overestimated. Even in Spain which got hit pretty badly as we all would agree, this number shows a death rate of 0.46%. And that includes a lot of deaths which occurred way before doctors were able to find out about better treatments ... just saying...

Do remember it isn't just about the death rate. It is really about the impact to those whose are infected and what it does to them as well as if those people then need to be treated and how that affects the health system and its capacity. One person may die but if 10,000 had to be admitted and tended to it would be bad. That hasn't happened, solely due the lockdowns and lack of fast transmission of infection.

Tugg

This.
Doing nothing would crashed the health system completely with a lot of non-Corona casualties. And there would also a lot more Corona related casualties.
 
lowwkjax
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:52 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 9:33 pm

Tugger wrote:
lowwkjax wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Spain’s population: 47 million

10% is 4.7 million

Spain Confirmed: 229,000

That’s 1 in 20 cases actually discovered.

For reference, GLOBAL confirmed cases: 4.3 million


Yet another antibody-study that proves that the death rate of this disease has been highly overestimated. Even in Spain which got hit pretty badly as we all would agree, this number shows a death rate of 0.46%. And that includes a lot of deaths which occurred way before doctors were able to find out about better treatments ... just saying...

Do remember it isn't just about the death rate. It is really about the impact to those whose are infected and what it does to them as well as if those people then need to be treated and how that affects the health system and its capacity. One person may die but if 10,000 had to be admitted and tended to it would be bad. That hasn't happened, solely due the lockdowns and lack of fast transmission of infection.

Tugg


I get what you mean but at the same this isn’t proven yet. We simply don’t know for sure whether numbers started going down because of the lockdowns or because of milder weather or because of whatever else reason there might be. As stated before, we for sure know that this virus has been around for much longer than anticipated (at least early December, both in Europe and the US), so we could as well just have started digging into a pool of infected people when we started testing. The more you test, the more people you’ll find (“exponential growth”), at one point you’ll reach the top and won’t find as many as before anymore, you’ll only get a few of those remaining plus the new infections (“curve is flattened”), for all we know this virus could just not be as contagious as we thought it is...

Who knows really. I’m all in for being aware and a little more cautious, but the drastic measures from the past weeks and months aren’t necessary anymore since we know a little more about what we’re dealing with and we know more about how to better treat those who need medical assistance.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19739
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 12:14 am

Be civil or the thread will be locked and users banned. This is your warning.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 1:11 am

Tugger wrote:
To me, I get annoyed at overly-cautious, impossible to meet, non-science based criteria being imposed for anything, and that of course goes for the COVID-19 "reopening". My current example in California that I keep waiting for Newsom to correct is the "no deaths in 14 days, only one new case per 10,000 people". I'd love to see the facts on how they came up with that one since it is essentially impossible to meet with any other flu virus. Just the "normal flu" averages just under 1 death per day over a full year. And that is for people under 65, add over 65 and the number is much higher (based on the 2017 to 2019 flu season in California). And of course the number of cases is vastly higher.

I am fine with protective measures and putting in place a series of fact based goal posts derived from the current science on the virus. But why is it OK for one disease to kill people and we are OK and move to an acceptable process but not for COVID19? I get the R factor and transmissiblity and the risk to older people and those with underlying conditions, but all those things are also in place with the normal flu. To me, just pulling number out of the air, is would seem the death rate will be more than one per day on average and the infection rate consequently higher relative to that.

Unfortunately I suspect it is "good look politics" that is driving the unreal number requirement ("We can't have people dying! It would look bad and like I didn't do my job.) I'm not sure the proper way to manage this. Honestly it would be interesting to bend Dr. Fauci's ear on this, to see what he would think will be a death rate from COVID with good controls in place.

Tugg



There needs to be some steady guidelines, but at this time it is is a free for all. I had hoped everyone would stay closed down till June 1 or a bit further to get the virus under control. I mean look at NY, they have gone way down from their max rate, and another 3 weeks would probably look great there.

California and Texas though, both seem to be on the slow creep upward, and i fear the rush to open in Texas will create the first crisis that causes everyone to close down.

With infection rates creeping up, Travel (air, cruise, train) for business or pleasure is going to be low over the summer.

July 1 should be interesting to watch. Disney World has reopened reservations for that day, and it should be interesting to see if they stick to it, or back out.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8489
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 3:41 am

Looks like Spain is actually estimating 5% of people already had the disease, not 10%. First of all, that is a depressingly low number of immunity given the high death toll they’ve had.

A look through their numbers on their Wikipedia response page shows a very large percentage of cases (confirmed cases not just deaths) were people 60 years old and older. Relatively few cases in younger and less likely to be hospitalized. This, combined with a low capacity healthcare system in terms of ICU, easily and quickly overwhelmed Spain.

The statistics for Italy look similar in terms of age groups and confirmed cases. I’m not aware of a serological survey for Italy, though. I really hope it isn’t as low as Spain’s numbers..
Last edited by PPVRA on Thu May 14, 2020 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11292
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 3:48 am

PPVRA wrote:
Looks like Spain is actually estimating 5% of people already had the disease, not 10%. First of all, that is a depressingly low number of immunity given the high death toll they’ve had.

A look through their numbers on their Wikipedia response page shows a very large percentage of cases (confirmed cases not just deaths) were people 60 years old and older. Relatively few cases in younger and less likely to be hospitalized. This, combined with a low capacity healthcare system in terms of ICU, easily and quickly overwhelmed Spain while little herd immunity was accumulated.

The statistics for Italy look similar in terms of age groups and total cases. I’m not aware of a serological survey for Italy, though. I really hope it isn’t as low as Spain’s numbers..



It looks about like what i have guessed is the real number. ~10% of cases get reported, and 5-10% of those die.
Still scary, and hopefully there is a higher level of immunity than that.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12901
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:57 am

flyguy89 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
That or people eventually just become so exhausted, throw their hands up, decide to stop caring and carry on living their lives. I think that is the more likely scenario...people growing fatigued and ultimately making their own risk judgments in their day-to-day lives.


Yup. Four about 4 weeks, until bodies start to pile again. Good look getting people out of the house after that, and you don't need all to many people to stop spending and going out to trash an economy.

Best regards
Thomas

Nah, because in such a scenario eventually people wouldn't even have a shelter to retreat to or food to feed themselves with.


because buildings contract corona virus, die and decompose?

Even developing countries with terrible economy and not much money manage to feed their populace during lock downs, sometimes by direct food drop off at the doorstep, and given how few people you need to feed a country, food supply is probably about the last sign of civilization to go. Now going to a grocery store and getting what you want may get iffy quick, but being unable to supply enough potatoes and rice.... air transmittable Ebola may be able to do that..... no..

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2900
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 5:49 am

tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Yup. Four about 4 weeks, until bodies start to pile again. Good look getting people out of the house after that, and you don't need all to many people to stop spending and going out to trash an economy.

Best regards
Thomas

Nah, because in such a scenario eventually people wouldn't even have a shelter to retreat to or food to feed themselves with.


because buildings contract corona virus, die and decompose?

Even developing countries with terrible economy and not much money manage to feed their populace during lock downs, sometimes by direct food drop off at the doorstep, and given how few people you need to feed a country, food supply is probably about the last sign of civilization to go. Now going to a grocery store and getting what you want may get iffy quick, but being unable to supply enough potatoes and rice.... air transmittable Ebola may be able to do that..... no..

best regards
Thomas

Uh, have you seen how the lockdowns are going in places like Ecuador and Colombia? My cousin is living in Ecuador right now where the bodies are literally piling up, and the sheer number of people living hand-to-mouth in the region presents them with the choice of either feed their families or starve/have nowhere in which to shelter-in-place. The idea of a lockdown there is a joke (and not a funny one). So out they continue to go operating their stands and selling their wares.

As I said, people will eventually make their own risk assessments...that includes those wanting to continue isolating as well as those deciding to venture back out, but for myriad reasons (economic, social, etc.) the idea that you're going to be able to forcibly shutter nearly all economic activity for a prolonged period (e.g. 4+ months) is not tenable, and the short-term effectiveness of doing so gradually erodes.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12901
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 6:03 am

flyguy89 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Nah, because in such a scenario eventually people wouldn't even have a shelter to retreat to or food to feed themselves with.


because buildings contract corona virus, die and decompose?

Even developing countries with terrible economy and not much money manage to feed their populace during lock downs, sometimes by direct food drop off at the doorstep, and given how few people you need to feed a country, food supply is probably about the last sign of civilization to go. Now going to a grocery store and getting what you want may get iffy quick, but being unable to supply enough potatoes and rice.... air transmittable Ebola may be able to do that..... no..

best regards
Thomas

Uh, have you seen how the lockdowns are going in places like Ecuador and Colombia? .


There are of course more and less competent governments around.

the idea that you're going to be able to forcibly shutter nearly all economic activity for a prolonged period (e.g. 4+ months) is not tenable


funny how that works here without even stay at home orders, and without shuttering the economy, and most people still going to work every day. Of course we got masks and disinfectant everywhere, and distancing rules and what not, and didn´t have it spiral out of control in the first place.....

If people used common sense, you can break the spread and prepare for safe operations within a few weeks. Every day beyond that is the sole responsibility of those that think infection prevention doesn´t apply to them.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 11:03 am

flyguy89 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Nah, because in such a scenario eventually people wouldn't even have a shelter to retreat to or food to feed themselves with.


because buildings contract corona virus, die and decompose?

Even developing countries with terrible economy and not much money manage to feed their populace during lock downs, sometimes by direct food drop off at the doorstep, and given how few people you need to feed a country, food supply is probably about the last sign of civilization to go. Now going to a grocery store and getting what you want may get iffy quick, but being unable to supply enough potatoes and rice.... air transmittable Ebola may be able to do that..... no..

best regards
Thomas

Uh, have you seen how the lockdowns are going in places like Ecuador and Colombia? My cousin is living in Ecuador right now where the bodies are literally piling up, and the sheer number of people living hand-to-mouth in the region presents them with the choice of either feed their families or starve/have nowhere in which to shelter-in-place. The idea of a lockdown there is a joke (and not a funny one). So out they continue to go operating their stands and selling their wares.

As I said, people will eventually make their own risk assessments...that includes those wanting to continue isolating as well as those deciding to venture back out, but for myriad reasons (economic, social, etc.) the idea that you're going to be able to forcibly shutter nearly all economic activity for a prolonged period (e.g. 4+ months) is not tenable, and the short-term effectiveness of doing so gradually erodes.


Yes look at California they are seeing an increase in new cases and yet they are under strict lockdowns still.

Lock downs only work for a short time people wont stay put for months inside their homes.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8489
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 12:10 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
funny how that works here without even stay at home orders, and without shuttering the economy, and most people still going to work every day. Of course we got masks and disinfectant everywhere, and distancing rules and what not, and didn´t have it spiral out of control in the first place.....

If people used common sense, you can break the spread and prepare for safe operations within a few weeks. Every day beyond that is the sole responsibility of those that think infection prevention doesn´t apply to them.

best regards
Thomas


The difference is wealth. Every day you sit idle at home, you consume a bit of your wealth. Europe has a lot of wealth to go through before starvation sets in.

In places where there’s little to no wealth accumulated, the viability of lockdowns are much shorter.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 9

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, Aesma, Dutchy, Francoflier, meecrob, Number6, scbriml, wingman, zakuivcustom and 54 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos