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AA747123
Topic Author
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:15 pm

Should November US election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:07 pm

With the current COVID19 pandemic not letting up, and it certainly wont be over by November, should the November Presidential Election be canceled? I don't think during a national crisis is the time to have a change in leadership. We need to maintain stable excellence in leadership with expertise in this pandemic.
Congress has the power to postpone or cancel the election, wouldn't it be prudent do so?
Last edited by qf789 on Wed May 06, 2020 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Updated title for clarity
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12763
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:16 pm

Given the utter incompetence of the current admin shouldn't the question be: "should the election be preferred?"

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1045
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:22 pm

Nope. It shouldn't.

And objectively speaking, Biden will have a transition team in place soon in order to continue running the government if he wins the election so he should be able to run things smoothly once inaugurated.

Not the first time in history there is a crisis when there is an election, WW2 come to mind and the election that wasn't canceled.

So there is no precedent for this, even if COVID comes with vengeance by the fall. Preparations, precautions should be in place, we have more than enough time to prepare.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
Eiszeit
Posts: 23
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:36 pm

To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?
 
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fr8mech
Posts: 7994
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:40 pm

No, the election should not be postponed.

If you can wait in line to go to Kroger, you can wait in line to vote.
If you can wait in line to go to Lowe’s and buy your spring plantings, you can wait in line to vote.
If you can wait in line to get your favorite take-out, you can wait in line to vote.
If you can wait in line to go to Costco, you can wait in line to vote.
If you can wait in a carpool line to drop off your kids’ “school work”, you can wait in line to vote.

In short, if there is any line you should want to wait in, it’s the line to vote.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
alfa164
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:41 pm

AA747123 wrote:
I don't think during a national crisis is the time to have a change in leadership. We need to maintain stable excellence in leadership with expertise in this pandemic.


During a national crisis is the time we need real leadership. We need to find stable excellence in leadership that will listen to people with expertise during this pandemic.

There; I fixed it for you...
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AA747123
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Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:15 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:48 pm

I do not believe that Trump would lose in November, his approval is still very strong. But on a fluke ya never know. I still think he will win by the biggest landslide since Reagan in 84. The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:11 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled


So, we’ve going from postpone to cancel?

Most of our states have devolved into dictatorships, benevolent (unless you’re a small business owner) dictatorships, but dictatorships none-the-less. And, you’re advocating the cancellation of our elections? An election that has the whole House up for re-election/election and 33 Senate seats up. Not to mention the presidency and all the state and local level elections.

This election will be a referendum on how this crisis was handled from the local level right on up to the top dog.

And you want to cancel it because it’s a distraction?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1439
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:21 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?


Because those in power are afraid of losing it.

A handful of states currently vote by mail, but there's no rational reason why it shouldn't become the norm.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:22 pm

AA747123 wrote:
I do not believe that Trump would lose in November, his approval is still very strong. But on a fluke ya never know. I still think he will win by the biggest landslide since Reagan in 84. The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled


I think he has a good chance of winning re-election. He pretty much did what he promised to do. He didn't build a wall. But did he try? Did he sincerely try, I think he probably gets a "yes" on that one.

Did he try to cut business taxes, hold China accountable, re-negotiate NAFTA, make running the country for the actual voters a priority, he did, in his way.

It's reasonable to doubt his intelligence and certainly his social graces are poor. But I think he largely is the president HIS voters (majority of electoral college voters) wanted.

The blaming COVID on him thing is flimsy. He enacted harsh restrictions on flights very quickly, and signed gigantic relief packages. DT is a low class person, but he did make a series of fairly wily compromises (not just covid, but in many areas) during his term.

His grasp of what people want to hear is pretty good. He uses his rallies as a tool to try slogans on people. Politics is all about slogans and understanding what motivates Joe/Jane Lunchpail. An elected official MUST have that skill, and he does. It's not optional. So unless the Dems get sombeody who can do that, Trump wins again. It is not about who the glittering media barons in NYC/LA prefer, or who the tech or oil barons prefer. They each get one vote only.
Last edited by LCDFlight on Tue May 05, 2020 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:22 pm

AA747123 wrote:
I do not believe that Trump would lose in November, his approval is still very strong. But on a fluke ya never know. I still think he will win by the biggest landslide since Reagan in 84. The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled


Wow. Just wow.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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ER757
Posts: 3768
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:24 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?

It varies by state - there is no national standard. Where I live (Washington) we are 100% vote by mail, have been for several election cycles. It couldn't be easier - the pamphlet with all the candidates' statements along with arguments for and against any ballot initiatives comes about a month out, then the ballot comes a week or so later. There's a postage-paid envelope and there are also ballot drop boxes throughout the state, so there is no excuse whatever not to vote. IMO it should be rolled out nationwide.
To answer the OP's question - No, No, a thousand times no!
 
N583JB
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:29 pm

Of course the election shouldn't be postponed or canceled. Can you imagine the reaction if President Obama had suggested doing so during one of his terms? There election must go on, pandemic or not.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22184
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:51 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?


Elections, even at the federal level, are done by the individual states. The only thing the Constitution says is when each state must hold presidential elections. There are states that have vote by mail. Many states have absentee voting, which is, essentially, vote by mail.

As far as the original question:

No. The election should not be cancelled. Mid-term elections were held during the Spanish Flu outbreak and elections continued to be held during WWII as well as the Civil War. Those are the precedents set for elections during times of national crisis.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:55 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?

Because the easier it is to vote, the harder it is for Republicans to get elected. Don't take my word for it, the "stable excellence in leadership," to borrow shamelessly from the OP, said so. And for once he was not even referring to people voting illegally.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... oronavirus

Same reason elections are still on a Tuesday even though there is no Constitutional requirement that it be so It made sense in 1845 when Congress chose Tuesday, because the US was a church-going agrarian economy and Tuesday didn't interfere. But today? Tuesday is a day people who need to earn a living spend working, not voting...

AA747123 wrote:
I do not believe that Trump would lose in November, his approval is still very strong. But on a fluke ya never know. I still think he will win by the biggest landslide since Reagan in 84. The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled

I know being on lockdown is harsh on some people, and that it is tempting to seek relief in chemical substances.... but go easy, some people might think you're advocating for a dictatorship.
 
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fr8mech
Posts: 7994
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 4:59 pm

ER757 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?

It varies by state - there is no national standard. Where I live (Washington) we are 100% vote by mail, have been for several election cycles. It couldn't be easier - the pamphlet with all the candidates' statements along with arguments for and against any ballot initiatives comes about a month out, then the ballot comes a week or so later. There's a postage-paid envelope and there are also ballot drop boxes throughout the state, so there is no excuse whatever not to vote. IMO it should be rolled out nationwide.
To answer the OP's question - No, No, a thousand times no!


My biggest concerns about mail voting are:

-how do you know who is casting the vote?
-you lose control of your ballot the second you put it in a mailbox
-what about lost mail? I just got a post card from a merchant that was sent in February...
-and, once again, because it’s important, how do you know who is casting the vote?

How many times in the past 20 or 30 years have absentee ballots suddenly turned up?

Look, I’m ok with absentee balloting, so long as it’s controlled, verifiable and its use disqualifies the voter from voting in the actual election.

I’m ok with early voting, under the same conditions. I’d never do it, but I’m ok with it.

So, to sum up, we damn well better not postpone or cancel the election, and we need to limit absentee/mail-balloting to those that truly require it. I’d expand the reasons for absentee balloting a bit, but there have to be tight controls on absentee balloting.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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seb146
Posts: 22184
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:01 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
I do not believe that Trump would lose in November, his approval is still very strong. But on a fluke ya never know. I still think he will win by the biggest landslide since Reagan in 84. The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled


I think he has a good chance of winning re-election. He pretty much did what he promised to do. He didn't build a wall. But did he try? Did he sincerely try, I think he probably gets a "yes" on that one.

Did he try to cut business taxes, hold China accountable, re-negotiate NAFTA, make running the country for the actual voters a priority, he did, in his way.

It's reasonable to doubt his intelligence and certainly his social graces are poor. But I think he largely is the president HIS voters (majority of electoral college voters) wanted.

The blaming COVID on him thing is flimsy. He enacted harsh restrictions on flights very quickly, and signed gigantic relief packages. DT is a low class person, but he did make a series of fairly wily compromises (not just covid, but in many areas) during his term.

His grasp of what people want to hear is pretty good. He uses his rallies as a tool to try slogans on people. Politics is all about slogans and understanding what motivates Joe/Jane Lunchpail. An elected official MUST have that skill, and he does. It's not optional. So unless the Dems get sombeody who can do that, Trump wins again. It is not about who the glittering media barons in NYC/LA prefer, or who the tech or oil barons prefer. They each get one vote only.


Let's go down your list: "The Wall" was already being built. NAFTA was renegotiated and it is just like it was before. China was held accountable for looking out for the best interests of China. He is being blamed for his non-response to covid-19. His constantly moving the goal posts, blaming everyone else, and taking credit where none exists since January 2017. He still has not released his taxes. He still has not put a lower cost, more inclusive alternative to ACA. He has held rallies at our expense. Gone golfing as much as possible at our expense. Even Republicans are running from him because they know he will hurt their chances of reelection. Let's not forget the blatant nepotism. All he knows is bumper sticker campaigns and name calling and bullying. He is all about giving people a shiny object to distract them from reality. He has done no real leading. Just is TV persona.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
bmartino99
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:01 pm

This has to be a troll job. As a republican that held my nose last election and voted for Trump and if Biden is the nominee I'll have to do it again, there's no way I would support even the suggestion of postponing a presidential election. I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base to be ready for open revolt if Trump even tried something like canceling the election.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1045
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:02 pm

N583JB wrote:
Of course the election shouldn't be postponed or canceled. Can you imagine the reaction if President Obama had suggested doing so during one of his terms? There election must go on, pandemic or not.


Imagine, just imagine, well not so much, take a look at what the democrat politicians have done in this pandemic. Had Obama or any other democrat president be in power, I am sure, they would have been floating this idea out there. They have tyrannical tendencies, always have and this crisis has exposed that entirely.

blueflyer wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
But today? Tuesday is a day people who need to earn a living spend working, not voting


Since when you spent the entire 24 hours of an election day voting? common sense says you can take your kids to school, work, go to vote in between, or after, it only takes 10 minutes or 15 max. If you can spare 15 minutes of the day not doing anything, I am sure you can during that day come up with time.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
Newark727
Posts: 1820
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:04 pm

bmartino99 wrote:
I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base to be ready for open revolt if Trump even tried something like canceling the election.


Your faith in the adherence to democratic norms of Trump supporters greatly exceeds my own.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22184
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:07 pm

fr8mech wrote:
ER757 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?

It varies by state - there is no national standard. Where I live (Washington) we are 100% vote by mail, have been for several election cycles. It couldn't be easier - the pamphlet with all the candidates' statements along with arguments for and against any ballot initiatives comes about a month out, then the ballot comes a week or so later. There's a postage-paid envelope and there are also ballot drop boxes throughout the state, so there is no excuse whatever not to vote. IMO it should be rolled out nationwide.
To answer the OP's question - No, No, a thousand times no!


My biggest concerns about mail voting are:

-how do you know who is casting the vote?
-you lose control of your ballot the second you put it in a mailbox
-what about lost mail? I just got a post card from a merchant that was sent in February...
-and, once again, because it’s important, how do you know who is casting the vote?

How many times in the past 20 or 30 years have absentee ballots suddenly turned up?

Look, I’m ok with absentee balloting, so long as it’s controlled, verifiable and its use disqualifies the voter from voting in the actual election.

I’m ok with early voting, under the same conditions. I’d never do it, but I’m ok with it.

So, to sum up, we damn well better not postpone or cancel the election, and we need to limit absentee/mail-balloting to those that truly require it. I’d expand the reasons for absentee balloting a bit, but there have to be tight controls on absentee balloting.


I live in Oregon. We only vote by mail. We just got our ballots for the primary. Two registered voters at this address, two ballots. One with my name, one with the brosband's name. That's it. Both must be signed by the person named on the ballot. How does the Secretary Of State know this? Because eligible voters are registered when they are issued their legal Oregon ID (identification card, drivers licence, Real ID card) so a signature and photo ID are on file and can be easily checked, double checked, and rechecked if need be. In this election, Oregon is doing postage paid return envelopes. Also, there are drop sites across the state, which are listed county-by-county on the Voter Information Guide.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
Posts: 22184
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:10 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Since when you spent the entire 24 hours of an election day voting? common sense says you can take your kids to school, work, go to vote in between, or after, it only takes 10 minutes or 15 max. If you can spare 15 minutes of the day not doing anything, I am sure you can during that day come up with time.


Explain the hours that people stand in line waiting to vote?

https://www.businessinsider.com/people- ... ous-2020-3
https://www.propublica.org/article/thes ... nchisement
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... for-whites
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/264506/
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
bmartino99
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:11 pm

Newark727 wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base to be ready for open revolt if Trump even tried something like canceling the election.


Your faith in the adherence to democratic norms of Trump supporters greatly exceeds my own.


Perhaps my faith is misplaced. We have seen populations throughout history continue to support a freely elected leader even as that leader turns towards an authoritarian leader. I still would expect these same folks that are currently protesting the lockdown at state capitals, to be the first in line to protest any Trump suggestion at canceling the election.

Either way, I hope it doesn't come to something like this as it would not take us to a good place.
 
bmartino99
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:13 pm

seb146 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
ER757 wrote:
It varies by state - there is no national standard. Where I live (Washington) we are 100% vote by mail, have been for several election cycles. It couldn't be easier - the pamphlet with all the candidates' statements along with arguments for and against any ballot initiatives comes about a month out, then the ballot comes a week or so later. There's a postage-paid envelope and there are also ballot drop boxes throughout the state, so there is no excuse whatever not to vote. IMO it should be rolled out nationwide.
To answer the OP's question - No, No, a thousand times no!


My biggest concerns about mail voting are:

-how do you know who is casting the vote?
-you lose control of your ballot the second you put it in a mailbox
-what about lost mail? I just got a post card from a merchant that was sent in February...
-and, once again, because it’s important, how do you know who is casting the vote?

How many times in the past 20 or 30 years have absentee ballots suddenly turned up?

Look, I’m ok with absentee balloting, so long as it’s controlled, verifiable and its use disqualifies the voter from voting in the actual election.

I’m ok with early voting, under the same conditions. I’d never do it, but I’m ok with it.

So, to sum up, we damn well better not postpone or cancel the election, and we need to limit absentee/mail-balloting to those that truly require it. I’d expand the reasons for absentee balloting a bit, but there have to be tight controls on absentee balloting.


I live in Oregon. We only vote by mail. We just got our ballots for the primary. Two registered voters at this address, two ballots. One with my name, one with the brosband's name. That's it. Both must be signed by the person named on the ballot. How does the Secretary Of State know this? Because eligible voters are registered when they are issued their legal Oregon ID (identification card, drivers licence, Real ID card) so a signature and photo ID are on file and can be easily checked, double checked, and rechecked if need be. In this election, Oregon is doing postage paid return envelopes. Also, there are drop sites across the state, which are listed county-by-county on the Voter Information Guide.


I don't even know why we're talking about national vote by mail. This is the 21st century, I can manage my bank accounts and file my taxes online, I don't see why I can't vote online.
 
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Moose135
Posts: 3130
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:14 pm

AA747123 wrote:
I do not believe that Trump would lose in November, his approval is still very strong. But on a fluke ya never know. I still think he will win by the biggest landslide since Reagan in 84. The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled

You need to stop watching Fox News, it has rotted your brain.

Remember, in 1864, this country held a presidential election during the Civil War.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
Newark727
Posts: 1820
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:19 pm

bmartino99 wrote:
I don't even know why we're talking about national vote by mail. This is the 21st century, I can manage my bank accounts and file my taxes online, I don't see why I can't vote online.


Maybe I've just spent too much time reading Something Awful and Twitter, but I'm convinced that any online election would be a 99% landslide victory for President Weedlord Bonerhitler the 420th.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22184
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:22 pm

bmartino99 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:

My biggest concerns about mail voting are:

-how do you know who is casting the vote?
-you lose control of your ballot the second you put it in a mailbox
-what about lost mail? I just got a post card from a merchant that was sent in February...
-and, once again, because it’s important, how do you know who is casting the vote?

How many times in the past 20 or 30 years have absentee ballots suddenly turned up?

Look, I’m ok with absentee balloting, so long as it’s controlled, verifiable and its use disqualifies the voter from voting in the actual election.

I’m ok with early voting, under the same conditions. I’d never do it, but I’m ok with it.

So, to sum up, we damn well better not postpone or cancel the election, and we need to limit absentee/mail-balloting to those that truly require it. I’d expand the reasons for absentee balloting a bit, but there have to be tight controls on absentee balloting.


I live in Oregon. We only vote by mail. We just got our ballots for the primary. Two registered voters at this address, two ballots. One with my name, one with the brosband's name. That's it. Both must be signed by the person named on the ballot. How does the Secretary Of State know this? Because eligible voters are registered when they are issued their legal Oregon ID (identification card, drivers licence, Real ID card) so a signature and photo ID are on file and can be easily checked, double checked, and rechecked if need be. In this election, Oregon is doing postage paid return envelopes. Also, there are drop sites across the state, which are listed county-by-county on the Voter Information Guide.


I don't even know why we're talking about national vote by mail. This is the 21st century, I can manage my bank accounts and file my taxes online, I don't see why I can't vote online.


No. Voting machines are easily hacked. Many web sites are hacked all the time. No way I would ever want that. I hate using this analogy, but do you honestly think American Idol is honest with their results? That someone out there isn't hacking their system to get their favorite voted in? No. Paper ballots, fill in the circle completely, drop it in the box, county/parish clerk counts them. No machines, no hacking, no vote switching.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
bmartino99
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I live in Oregon. We only vote by mail. We just got our ballots for the primary. Two registered voters at this address, two ballots. One with my name, one with the brosband's name. That's it. Both must be signed by the person named on the ballot. How does the Secretary Of State know this? Because eligible voters are registered when they are issued their legal Oregon ID (identification card, drivers licence, Real ID card) so a signature and photo ID are on file and can be easily checked, double checked, and rechecked if need be. In this election, Oregon is doing postage paid return envelopes. Also, there are drop sites across the state, which are listed county-by-county on the Voter Information Guide.


I don't even know why we're talking about national vote by mail. This is the 21st century, I can manage my bank accounts and file my taxes online, I don't see why I can't vote online.


No. Voting machines are easily hacked. Many web sites are hacked all the time. No way I would ever want that. I hate using this analogy, but do you honestly think American Idol is honest with their results? That someone out there isn't hacking their system to get their favorite voted in? No. Paper ballots, fill in the circle completely, drop it in the box, county/parish clerk counts them. No machines, no hacking, no vote switching.


You don't think your mail in ballot is being counted by a computer connected to a network?
 
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ER757
Posts: 3768
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 5:58 pm

fr8mech wrote:
ER757 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?

It varies by state - there is no national standard. Where I live (Washington) we are 100% vote by mail, have been for several election cycles. It couldn't be easier - the pamphlet with all the candidates' statements along with arguments for and against any ballot initiatives comes about a month out, then the ballot comes a week or so later. There's a postage-paid envelope and there are also ballot drop boxes throughout the state, so there is no excuse whatever not to vote. IMO it should be rolled out nationwide.
To answer the OP's question - No, No, a thousand times no!


My biggest concerns about mail voting are:

-how do you know who is casting the vote?
-you lose control of your ballot the second you put it in a mailbox
-what about lost mail? I just got a post card from a merchant that was sent in February...
-and, once again, because it’s important, how do you know who is casting the vote?

How many times in the past 20 or 30 years have absentee ballots suddenly turned up?

Look, I’m ok with absentee balloting, so long as it’s controlled, verifiable and its use disqualifies the voter from voting in the actual election.

I’m ok with early voting, under the same conditions. I’d never do it, but I’m ok with it.

So, to sum up, we damn well better not postpone or cancel the election, and we need to limit absentee/mail-balloting to those that truly require it. I’d expand the reasons for absentee balloting a bit, but there have to be tight controls on absentee balloting.

Yes, valid concerns to be sure but not a deal-breaker IMO. There always has been and always will be some amount of voter fraud. Hell, I grew up in Chicago and I am pretty certain my then-dead grandfather voted several times for Mayor Daley - the slogan back then was "vote early, vote often" :smile: The Machine as the democratic party was called then had voter fraud elevated to an art form. No system is perfect, even in-person voting these days can bring up the same concern about how do I know the person who shows up doesn't have fake ID? What if paper ballots are mis-counted (see Floria 2000), what if the electronic voting machine mal-functions or gets hacked? No system is perfect, and I don't think mail-in is any more flawed than other methods. As far as around here, the vast majority of folks I know use the ballot drop boxes and not USPS - specifically because of an issue you bring up - what if USPS loses my ballot?
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 6:13 pm

seb146 wrote:

I live in Oregon. We only vote by mail. We just got our ballots for the primary. Two registered voters at this address, two ballots. One with my name, one with the brosband's name. That's it. Both must be signed by the person named on the ballot. How does the Secretary Of State know this? Because eligible voters are registered when they are issued their legal Oregon ID (identification card, drivers licence, Real ID card) so a signature and photo ID are on file and can be easily checked, double checked, and rechecked if need be. In this election, Oregon is doing postage paid return envelopes. Also, there are drop sites across the state, which are listed county-by-county on the Voter Information Guide.


Are there statutory controls in place? How many times are the ballots “checked, double checked, and rechecked” by law? You know, grab a mandatory random sample across the state and check the signatures against the signature card?

Also, if the signatures sorta, kinda match, but could be a little different, how are those ballots dealt with...assuming there is some sort of statutory control, and someone actually takes the time to match signatures?

Sorry, there is no way of knowing that you filled out your ballot and your brosband filled out his. Hell, how does anyone even know that the ballots arrived at your address? Presumably, you’d know, so you’d notify the competent authority and they’d “investigate” and send you new ballots. How are the old ones “canceled”?

And, if you can cancel a ballot, what’s to prevent an election official, from canceling a block of ballots?

Too many opportunities for fraud, in my opinion.

I’d trust online voting before mail, but I’m certainly not a fan of that either.

Get off your ass, go to the polling place, present your ID, fill in the little bubble, feed it into the machine, get your “I Voted” sticker, then go about your business confident that you’ve done your civic duty and that it was done as fraud free as humanly possible.
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NIKV69
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 6:18 pm

bmartino99 wrote:
This has to be a troll job. As a republican that held my nose last election and voted for Trump and if Biden is the nominee I'll have to do it again, there's no way I would support even the suggestion of postponing a presidential election. I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base to be ready for open revolt if Trump even tried something like canceling the election.


The funny thing is Trump wants to have the election in November and the media and Biden are trying to make you think otherwise.

The election will happen on election day.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
FGITD
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 6:19 pm

Been discussed at some length in other threads...

No election doesn’t mean the whoever holds the position gets to keep it. There’s a very long and complicated line of succession , and it is greatly impacted by not holding an election. If I remember right, not holding an election this November would result in a Senator from Vermont (no, not THAT one) being placed as president.

Either way, the term ends on January 20 at noon.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 6:20 pm

seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Since when you spent the entire 24 hours of an election day voting? common sense says you can take your kids to school, work, go to vote in between, or after, it only takes 10 minutes or 15 max. If you can spare 15 minutes of the day not doing anything, I am sure you can during that day come up with time.


Explain the hours that people stand in line waiting to vote?

https://www.businessinsider.com/people- ... ous-2020-3
https://www.propublica.org/article/thes ... nchisement
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... for-whites
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/264506/


Oh my goodness, I spent 3+ years waiting to get rid of Trump, but I can't spend a few hours trying to help getting rid of him.

If you or any other Trump hater sums up the amount of time you spent in this forum criticizing Trump, you will find totals in hours spent doing that maybe weeks times in a year.

Certainly come election day you can afford a few hours if they run into trouble.

This makes the case that those who will vote in November are the most motivated ones, based on everything I have seen in the MSM and forums like these, there is more motivation against Trump than towards him, if that's any reasonable sort of measure (which I doubt), then Trump will lose badly even with the pandemic in full gear.

Unless of course, Trump supporters are less worried about the pandemic and more about normal life, which is something I have seen these past weeks.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
blueflyer
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 6:37 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
But today? Tuesday is a day people who need to earn a living spend working, not voting


Since when you spent the entire 24 hours of an election day voting? common sense says you can take your kids to school, work, go to vote in between, or after, it only takes 10 minutes or 15 max. If you can spare 15 minutes of the day not doing anything, I am sure you can during that day come up with time.

The rationale for voting on a Tuesday in 1845 was that it was one of the days when most people had free time (no Monday-Friday workweek then). There is no rationale to keep elections on a Tuesday other than historical precedent (historical precedent also justifies owning slaves and far more restrictions on gun ownership than we have today), or the desire to suppress the vote. Why else resist moving elections to a day where most working people don't have to try and "spare 15 minutes of the day" (and 15 minutes? seriously? guess no one votes in your neighborhood).

NIKV69 wrote:
The funny thing is Trump wants to have the election in November and the media and Biden are trying to make you think otherwise.

You're right. When Jerry Falwell Jr. suggested in a tweet that Trump's term should be extended by two years, Trump retweeted that and added it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard in his life and there was absolutely no questions whatsoever that his term should not end as constitutionally scheduled.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... e-extended
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 6:48 pm

blueflyer wrote:
The rationale for voting on a Tuesday in 1845 was that it was one of the days when most people had free time (no Monday-Friday workweek then). There is no rationale to keep elections on a Tuesday other than historical precedent (historical precedent also justifies owning slaves and far more restrictions on gun ownership than we have today), or the desire to suppress the vote. Why else resist moving elections to a day where most working people don't have to try and "spare 15 minutes of the day" (and 15 minutes? seriously? guess no one votes in your neighborhood).

15 minutes was what I spent in my voting location in 2016. Yes there can be cases of hours, sure.

Voting is a civic duty, not something you are to do at your convenience. I know the left is intent in destroying all the norms and customs that have been in place in this country and made it to be the oldest democracy in the history of human civilization.

In any case if it is too much of an inconvenience for you, and so that you don't use the 'voter suppression' card, most states allow early voting. Absentee voting. So if you are really interested in voting but in election day for some reason you can't show up, you have other mechanisms that would allow you to vote.

BTW, don't see why we are all of the sudden questioning the way this democracy has worked. It has worked out for you well in the past when democrat presidents, senators, representatives win and take power.

No need to do a revisionist approach to everything that is done in this country. And certainly COVID19 can't further be used to further certain political plans and ambitions just so you can get a short cut to implementing your political agenda.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
StarAC17
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 6:52 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?


Making voting easier and increasing the turnout does not benefit the republicans. When the turnout is low the GOP usually wins, when high the Democrats usually win.
Many of the states are run by republican legislators even if the governor is a democrat and making voting easier doesn't serve their interests.

seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Since when you spent the entire 24 hours of an election day voting? common sense says you can take your kids to school, work, go to vote in between, or after, it only takes 10 minutes or 15 max. If you can spare 15 minutes of the day not doing anything, I am sure you can during that day come up with time.


Explain the hours that people stand in line waiting to vote?

https://www.businessinsider.com/people- ... ous-2020-3
https://www.propublica.org/article/thes ... nchisement
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... for-whites
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/264506/


Some observations north of the border, where the maximum time I have ever waited is 10 minutes.

    Your employer must give 3 hours in which to go to the polls.
    There is early voting a selected polling stations up to 10 days (including weekends) and if you can't get there you can vote at an elections Canada office. Last time I voted it was on a Saturday
    Same day registration is quick and easy. If you have no photo ID you can use your health card and a bill or bank statement showing your address.
    Polls are open usually 7-7 on election day.
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casinterest
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 7:07 pm

AA747123 wrote:
With the current COVID19 pandemic not letting up, and it certainly wont be over by November, should the November Presidential Election be canceled? I don't think during a national crisis is the time to have a change in leadership. We need to maintain stable excellence in leadership with expertise in this pandemic.
Congress has the power to postpone or cancel the election, wouldn't it be prudent do so?



We need to vote. Early voting and voting by curbside must be allowed, in addition to mailed in balloting.
Our country held elections in the great depression and during war time.

Those officials that are popular enough to secure a winning vote will server for the next term.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1045
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 7:16 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?


Making voting easier and increasing the turnout does not benefit the republicans. When the turnout is low the GOP usually wins, when high the Democrats usually win.
Many of the states are run by republican legislators even if the governor is a democrat and making voting easier doesn't serve their interests.


Lets talk with facts, not feelings.

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_tur ... _elections

2016, higher turnout than 2012 yet a Republican won. In 2012 lower turnout than 2008, yet a Democrat won. 2004 and 2000 higher turn out than 1996 and Republican won. 1996 lower turn out than 1988 and a democrat won.

Not going all the way down, but you get a picture based on facts.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8251
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 7:17 pm

AA747123 wrote:
I do not believe that Trump would lose in November, his approval is still very strong. But on a fluke ya never know. I still think he will win by the biggest landslide since Reagan in 84. The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled

Meth...not even once.

bmartino99 wrote:
This is the 21st century, I can manage my bank accounts and file my taxes online, I don't see why I can't vote online.

If a bank is hacked, not every person is necessarily affected, and if multiple banks are hacked, then we got bigger things to worry about. If a voting center is hacked (not a voting machine, but a center with servers and such), an entire election is tainted (even if you isolate it to a single state). Sorry, I still prefer paper ballots. Let's use mail instead. When someone can guarantee a completely secure system, invulnerable to penetration, then I could consider supporting an election completely online.

fr8mech wrote:
No, the election should not be postponed.

If you can wait in line to go to Kroger, you can wait in line to vote.
If you can wait in line to go to Lowe’s and buy your spring plantings, you can wait in line to vote.
If you can wait in line to get your favorite take-out, you can wait in line to vote.
If you can wait in line to go to Costco, you can wait in line to vote.
If you can wait in a carpool line to drop off your kids’ “school work”, you can wait in line to vote.

In short, if there is any line you should want to wait in, it’s the line to vote.

The problem here is that neither Kroger/Lowes/takeout/Costco/carpool make it intentionally difficult to do whatever it is you wanna do there. And unlike these stores which are open from 6am-10pm and are open 7 days a week, voting is just one day. Yes, you have places offering early voting, but a lot of the places with long lines just happened to have eliminated or severely reduced early voting, whether by cutting down the number of days people can do that or cutting down the number of polling places. So sorry, but this is the wrong argument to make.

fr8mech wrote:
My biggest concerns about mail voting are:

-how do you know who is casting the vote?
-you lose control of your ballot the second you put it in a mailbox
-what about lost mail? I just got a post card from a merchant that was sent in February...
-and, once again, because it’s important, how do you know who is casting the vote?

How many times in the past 20 or 30 years have absentee ballots suddenly turned up?

a) The person has to sign the ballot under penalty of perjury. That means that if someone else takes my ballot and I complain to the election authorities, that ballot is discarded and another one is issued (provided it's within the timeframe).
b) That's why there are dropboxes. I used to drop mine off at the mailbox BUT given that the PO lost one on the way to me, I grew skeptic. For the primary in WA, I requested a replacement ballot, and when I voted, I drove to city hall where there was a ballot dropbox outside. Couldn't have been any easier.
c) Sign up for the Delivery Digest from USPS. That's how I found out that my ballot was lost on the way to me.
d) Again, the ballot has to be signed by the voter in order to count. If you were told that a ballot was on its way and never made it, request a replacement ballot (or go pick it up personally). The one issued that was stolen will be canceled since the system will know that you requested a replacement ballot and they, therefore, must receive that one instead. They have barcodes so I take it they're uniquely coded to the voter. And I'm almost certain they do a signature match as well.

Your concerns are valid, but they're no different than at a polling place. The machines count ballots, but how do I know that the ballot will be kept in place until it is deemed safe to throw away? How do I know that an election worker won't maliciously bag it so that when it comes down to counting or a recount, it'll be there? Or what if that worker voids it?

bmartino99 wrote:
I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base to be ready for open revolt if Trump even tried something like canceling the election.
Please...the Constitution loving portion of the base only revolts when government infringes on the parts they like: namely, 1st, 2nd, and 10th Amendments.
a) 1st Amendment: in terms of religion. Governments cannot ban me from putting up a Christian display on public grounds...but if they put up Muslim or non-denominational one, then we revolt.
b) 2nd Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. No conditions at all (no background checks, no licensing, no insurance requirements...).
c) 10th Amendment: If the federal government insists on gay marriage, we'll revolt because states rights...now if the federal government insists on cracking down pot dealers, enforce it. No states rights there!

fr8mech wrote:
Are there statutory controls in place? How many times are the ballots “checked, double checked, and rechecked” by law? You know, grab a mandatory random sample across the state and check the signatures against the signature card?

Also, if the signatures sorta, kinda match, but could be a little different, how are those ballots dealt with...assuming there is some sort of statutory control, and someone actually takes the time to match signatures?

Sorry, there is no way of knowing that you filled out your ballot and your brosband filled out his. Hell, how does anyone even know that the ballots arrived at your address? Presumably, you’d know, so you’d notify the competent authority and they’d “investigate” and send you new ballots. How are the old ones “canceled”?

And, if you can cancel a ballot, what’s to prevent an election official, from canceling a block of ballots?


a) How do we know those checks are in place for regular polling places?
b) Unless the imposter knows how I sign, there's gonna be a lot of trouble trying to match a signature. I've seen my parents' signatures and as much as I tried doodling it, I never was able to match it. So what makes you think that someone else can do it without even knowing me?
c) Again, USPS Daily Digest tells you what you're supposed to receive. Ballots are in a double envelope so even when you vote, no one can look inside unless they open it. As to how are the ballots canceled? They have barcodes which I would think has information about the voter. If a replacement ballot is issued, the ballot itself says "Replacement Ballot" at the top. Their system should get a flag if it ever receives the original one. King County also has a tracker so once you cast your ballot, you can enter that tracking ID and it'll tell you when the system has processed your ballot.
d) The only way to cancel a ballot is for a voter to request it canceled. If you're worried about a state official flipping a switch and canceling ballots (even though there's still a paper trail to follow), I'd be more concerned about an election official flipping a switch and purging people off the roles without confirmation (but that doesn't seem to worry you so much, does it?).

At this point, you're just gasping at straws. Mail voting is not 100% foolproof, but at least it's accessible to everyone officially registered. I can't say the same for the traditional method where, depending on where you live, the state either helps you vote or puts extreme burdens so that you don't.

fr8mech wrote:
Get off your ass, go to the polling place, present your ID, fill in the little bubble, feed it into the machine, get your “I Voted” sticker, then go about your business confident that you’ve done your civic duty and that it was done as fraud free as humanly possible.

It's funny that you say considering that, to this day, there are far more confirmed cases of fraud in places that do traditional voting than in those that do mail-only. But whatever floats your boat.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5481
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 7:22 pm

See the Carter/Baker Commission on Elections which stated “vote by mail” was an opening to fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... ion_Reform
 
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casinterest
Posts: 11035
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 7:29 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
See the Carter/Baker Commission on Elections which stated “vote by mail” was an opening to fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... ion_Reform



It is. we saw that in NC this past year, but this is how Military Members and college students are asked to vote now.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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ER757
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 7:38 pm

AA747123 wrote:
I do not believe that Trump would lose in November, his approval is still very strong. But on a fluke ya never know. I still think he will win by the biggest landslide since Reagan in 84. The mere distraction alone we do not need so thats why I think it should be postponed or outright canceled

I wasn't going to respond to this post because I suspected it was just trolling, but here goes anyhow:
In today's political landscape a landslide is for all intents and purposes impossible. There are enough states that will reliably go blue or red to ensure even the losing candidate gets a minimum of 150 or so electoral votes - probably closer to 200. The days of one candidate carrying 45 or 47 states are past, at least for now
 
LabQuest
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 7:46 pm

If we can have an election during a civil war we can have an election during this.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 8:39 pm

ER757 wrote:
In today's political landscape a landslide is for all intents and purposes impossible. There are enough states that will reliably go blue or red to ensure even the losing candidate gets a minimum of 150 or so electoral votes - probably closer to 200. The days of one candidate carrying 45 or 47 states are past, at least for now

Unless, of course, you coerce states to cancel the election and grant their EC votes to someone (which, technically speaking, is allowed).

But even if that were to happen, AA747123 insists 2020 will be greater than 1984 when Mondale won only 13 EC votes to Reagan 525. Unless all the blue states have a change of heart or a coup happens in each one and GOP sympathizers take over, there will be no election that matches 1984.

I seriously want AA747123 to explain his reasoning (if not trolling...which I have a hard time untangling).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
winginit
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 9:10 pm

AA747123 wrote:
With the current COVID19 pandemic not letting up, and it certainly wont be over by November, should the November Presidential Election be canceled? I don't think during a national crisis is the time to have a change in leadership. We need to maintain stable excellence in leadership with expertise in this pandemic.
Congress has the power to postpone or cancel the election, wouldn't it be prudent do so?


If the United States voted during world wars, with hundreds of thousands of Americans scattered across the world, why would the US not vote in a pandemic?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Tue May 05, 2020 11:03 pm

The real question should be : with the current COVID19 pandemic not letting up, is it reasonable not to invoke the 25th right now ? Then is it reasonable to wait 2 months after the election to have a sensible president ?
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FTMCPIUS
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 12:15 am

Eiszeit wrote:
To my unserstanding there is no vote by mail system in the US, could someone explaine to me why?

Apparently, you haven't ever lived in Illinois. ;)
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:04 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
See the Carter/Baker Commission on Elections which stated “vote by mail” was an opening to fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... ion_Reform



I think the Republicans fear vote by mail because they cannot control the vote by closing voting places, moving them and all out suppression of voters rights by design such as voter Id requirements.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2242
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:13 am

WarRI1 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
See the Carter/Baker Commission on Elections which stated “vote by mail” was an opening to fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... ion_Reform



I think the Republicans fear vote by mail because they cannot control the vote by closing voting places, moving them and all out suppression of voters rights by design such as voter Id requirements.


I’m a Republican (big shock) and I do not trust the USPS to handle something on that scale. I’ve had letters and packages lost, get destroyed (“accidentally”), etc. How can you guarantee me that millions of ballots will get to the right place on time? What happens if someone mails their ballot on time and it gets to the destination AFTER all the votes are counted? If you put tracking on it, that kind of nullifies the idea of anonymous voting. When I voted by absentee ballot in college, one of my complaints was that requiring a postage stamp on the ballot amounted to a poll tax. If there needs to be a large scale mail in vote, I say do it postage free.

Also...not that it matters, but this Republican is against voter ID.

Marc
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:35 am

If there needs to be a large scale mail in vote, I say do it postage free.

Also...not that it matters, but this Republican is against voter ID.

I agree, postage free and at one time I was for voter Id until I saw what it was used for in certain states and by certain people. I cannot even imagine the USPS not being able to handle the chore.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

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