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KFTG
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:51 am

Yes, it should be cancelled. Nancy Pelosi would make a great President.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11948
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 3:03 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
The rationale for voting on a Tuesday in 1845 was that it was one of the days when most people had free time (no Monday-Friday workweek then). There is no rationale to keep elections on a Tuesday other than historical precedent (historical precedent also justifies owning slaves and far more restrictions on gun ownership than we have today), or the desire to suppress the vote. Why else resist moving elections to a day where most working people don't have to try and "spare 15 minutes of the day" (and 15 minutes? seriously? guess no one votes in your neighborhood).

15 minutes was what I spent in my voting location in 2016. Yes there can be cases of hours, sure.

Voting is a civic duty, not something you are to do at your convenience. I know the left is intent in destroying all the norms and customs that have been in place in this country and made it to be the oldest democracy in the history of civilization.


Where do you get this stuff?? Since we’re dealing in ‘facts not feelings’, let’s at least start with the US not being anywhere near the oldest democratic system. There has been a functioning parliament in Iceland for over 1,000 years that still goes by its original name. Learn about your world to avoid silly statements.

https://europa.eu/youth/is/article/61/4215_en
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
FTMCPIUS
Posts: 339
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 3:45 am

WarRI1 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
See the Carter/Baker Commission on Elections which stated “vote by mail” was an opening to fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... ion_Reform



I think the Republicans fear vote by mail because they cannot control the vote by closing voting places, moving them and all out suppression of voters rights by design such as voter Id requirements.

You know as well as I that Republicans fear vote by mail because Democrats have shamelessly embraced and fine-tuned the ‘art’ of vote harvesting. Everyone in politics know this occurs in many, if not most, elections. As just one example, some of my nieces and nephews were solicited to be volunteers in the 2016 election. Two of them signed up and it turned out their roles were to be the gathering and submitting of absentee and mail ballots, some of them 'manufactured' and all marked Dem of course. When my brother leaned of this, he filed a complaint with the county clerk who said nothing of that nature could ever occur, and ‘besides, it’s too late to do anything at this point anyway.’

Another example: I was an election judge in 2004 and ballot harvesting by Dems, or at least the attempt to do so, was one of the worst-kept ‘secrets’ surrounding that election. I am not suggesting Republicans, to some extent, do not engage in this practice, but Dems have pretty much perfected it.

Both parties have judges and watchers at polling places. Yes, Republicans have been guilty of A FEW of the tactics you mention, but for the most part that is usually more than offset by Dem vote harvesting. (before you ask, find the link(s) yourself)

Requiring a person to prove his/her residency and other very basic information in order to be qualified to have the right to vote is not suppression. To quote Jessie Opoien, ‘The Fight for Safe, Fair Elections Doesn’t Have to be Partisan.’ In a perfect world perhaps, but not these days.

As an Independent voter, I find myself in the no-man’s land of politics. Surprise: I voted for Obama in 2008, not because we were both members of the same club and that I met him on several occasions, but because I thought he was the best candidate for our country at the time. Since then, I’ve had to either not vote or, in HRC’s case, hold my nose and vote Red. Regardless, I hope Joe Biden does the right thing and drops out so the country will have an opportunity to vote for a stable and healthy candidate.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:11 am

I think the Republicans fear vote by mail because they cannot control the vote by closing voting places, moving them and all out suppression of voters rights by design such as voter Id requirements.

Well, if the Democrats are good at vote harvesting, the Republicans are just as good at voter suppression and Gerrymandering using every dirty trick in the book and they are not bashful about it for sure.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:19 am

I see a scenario where Apple & Google & Facebook will team up to have all voting for all jurisdictions done electronically. What could go wrong? Better yet, they can team up to handle all voting worldwide. The chip installed in your hand or forehead will insure no one votes who isn't supposed to, in any election! The Supercomputers and the Cloud can handle it.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
Cadet985
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 5:48 am

KFTG wrote:
Yes, it should be cancelled. Nancy Pelosi would make a great President.


You’re assuming she’ll be re-elected, and chosen as Speaker again.

Marc
 
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Mortyman
Posts: 5832
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 6:09 am

Is there the possibility of online voting in the US ?

I am afraid Biden has no chance.
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 7:08 am

Mortyman wrote:
Is there the possibility of online voting in the US ?

I am afraid Biden has no chance.


No. Our cybersecurity is pretty terrible. Numerous reports from multiple news outlets report how dangerously vulnerable we are.

Marc
 
GDB
Posts: 13677
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 8:21 am

So how did you cope in the 1944 election? Millions of voters serving aboard or just away from their own states?
Maybe I answered my own question, look who won.

In the UK, the election that had to be held by 1940 was obviously put off, country fighting for it's life and all that. A coalition ruled though there were by-elections in Parliamentary seats when required by the sitting MP standing down for whatever reason. When things were going badly, the favored choice for Churchill often lost usually to mavericks.

Come the July 1945 General Election, millions of votes had to be mailed from the still active front in the Far East and from numerous garrisons all over the world.
Hence the three week delay between casting the votes and the announcement.

If the worn out, bankrupted UK, could do this, with the fastest means of transport being piston powered aircraft, 75 years ago, WTF is up the the US today?

Along with voter suppression, gerrymandering, machines that can be hacked, US Democracy is more and more becoming an oxymoron.
 
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Mortyman
Posts: 5832
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 8:33 am

GDB wrote:
So how did you cope in the 1944 election? Millions of voters serving aboard or just away from their own states?
Maybe I answered my own question, look who won.

In the UK, the election that had to be held by 1940 was obviously put off, country fighting for it's life and all that. A coalition ruled though there were by-elections in Parliamentary seats when required by the sitting MP standing down for whatever reason. When things were going badly, the favored choice for Churchill often lost usually to mavericks.

Come the July 1945 General Election, millions of votes had to be mailed from the still active front in the Far East and from numerous garrisons all over the world.
Hence the three week delay between casting the votes and the announcement.

If the worn out, bankrupted UK, could do this, with the fastest means of transport being piston powered aircraft, 75 years ago, WTF is up the the US today?

Along with voter suppression, gerrymandering, machines that can be hacked, US Democracy is more and more becoming an oxymoron.



The US is not a Democracy, but a Republic .... thats what Americans keep telling me ... For some reason a lot of Americans don't seem to understand that one can be both at the same time ...
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2244
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 8:35 am

Mortyman wrote:
GDB wrote:
So how did you cope in the 1944 election? Millions of voters serving aboard or just away from their own states?
Maybe I answered my own question, look who won.

In the UK, the election that had to be held by 1940 was obviously put off, country fighting for it's life and all that. A coalition ruled though there were by-elections in Parliamentary seats when required by the sitting MP standing down for whatever reason. When things were going badly, the favored choice for Churchill often lost usually to mavericks.

Come the July 1945 General Election, millions of votes had to be mailed from the still active front in the Far East and from numerous garrisons all over the world.
Hence the three week delay between casting the votes and the announcement.

If the worn out, bankrupted UK, could do this, with the fastest means of transport being piston powered aircraft, 75 years ago, WTF is up the the US today?

Along with voter suppression, gerrymandering, machines that can be hacked, US Democracy is more and more becoming an oxymoron.



The US is not a Democracy, but a Republic .... thats what Americans keep telling me ... For some reason a lot of Americans don't seem to understand that one can be both at the same time ...


I say this as an American.....I question how many people in this country know we’re a democracy or a republic.

Marc
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 11:25 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
The rationale for voting on a Tuesday in 1845 was that it was one of the days when most people had free time (no Monday-Friday workweek then). There is no rationale to keep elections on a Tuesday other than historical precedent (historical precedent also justifies owning slaves and far more restrictions on gun ownership than we have today), or the desire to suppress the vote. Why else resist moving elections to a day where most working people don't have to try and "spare 15 minutes of the day" (and 15 minutes? seriously? guess no one votes in your neighborhood).

15 minutes was what I spent in my voting location in 2016. Yes there can be cases of hours, sure.

Voting is a civic duty, not something you are to do at your convenience. I know the left is intent in destroying all the norms and customs that have been in place in this country and made it to be the oldest democracy in the history of civilization.


Where do you get this stuff?? Since we’re dealing in ‘facts not feelings’, let’s at least start with the US not being anywhere near the oldest democratic system. There has been a functioning parliament in Iceland for over 1,000 years that still goes by its original name. Learn about your world to avoid silly statements.

https://europa.eu/youth/is/article/61/4215_en


Try to read the link before you post:

1262 Icelanders swear fealty to the King of Norway
1397 Formation of Kalmar Union under one King in Denmark
1662 King of Denmark takes absolute power


How can that be the oldest democracy if by the same link you post it shows that a King took absolute control of Iceland, that parliament had no power with a King with absolute power over it. Again nice try at revisionist history.

World economic forum if you don't believe anything from American history:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

Iceland is the 14th oldest democracy, the US number 1 and Switzerland number 2.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13418
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 11:29 am

KFTG wrote:
Yes, it should be cancelled. Nancy Pelosi would make a great President.


Can you imagine? I would rather have Harris at least we would have some eye candy to look at.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11948
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 11:44 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Voting is a civic duty, not something you are to do at your convenience. I know the left is intent in destroying all the norms and customs that have been in place in this country and made it to be the oldest democracy in the history of civilization.


Where do you get this stuff?? Since we’re dealing in ‘facts not feelings’, let’s at least start with the US not being anywhere near the oldest democratic system. There has been a functioning parliament in Iceland for over 1,000 years that still goes by its original name. Learn about your world to avoid silly statements.

https://europa.eu/youth/is/article/61/4215_en


Try to read the link before you post:

1262 Icelanders swear fealty to the King of Norway
1397 Formation of Kalmar Union under one King in Denmark
1662 King of Denmark takes absolute power


How can that be the oldest democracy if by the same link you post it shows that a King took absolute control of Iceland, that parliament had no power with a King with absolute power over it. Again nice try at revisionist history.

World economic forum if you don't believe anything from American history:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

Iceland is the 14th oldest democracy, the US number 1 and Switzerland number 2.


Not revisionist history - the Althing body continued to meet and farmers could continue to discuss local issues and propose solutions.

According to Icelanders, the legislature only briefly ceased local functions under Danish rule. After 1262 the king had executive power and Icelandic parliament shared formal legislative powers. Icelanders are therefore correct to argue they have the oldest legislative body. I remember hearing first about this from a Danish exchange student in my IPH class in university.

Enjoy a detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 12:01 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Where do you get this stuff?? Since we’re dealing in ‘facts not feelings’, let’s at least start with the US not being anywhere near the oldest democratic system. There has been a functioning parliament in Iceland for over 1,000 years that still goes by its original name. Learn about your world to avoid silly statements.

https://europa.eu/youth/is/article/61/4215_en


Try to read the link before you post:

1262 Icelanders swear fealty to the King of Norway
1397 Formation of Kalmar Union under one King in Denmark
1662 King of Denmark takes absolute power


How can that be the oldest democracy if by the same link you post it shows that a King took absolute control of Iceland, that parliament had no power with a King with absolute power over it. Again nice try at revisionist history.

World economic forum if you don't believe anything from American history:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

Iceland is the 14th oldest democracy, the US number 1 and Switzerland number 2.


Not revisionist history - the Althing body continued to meet and farmers could continue to discuss local issues and propose solutions.

According to Icelanders, the legislature only briefly ceased local functions under Danish rule. After 1262 the king had executive power and Icelandic parliament shared formal legislative powers. Icelanders are therefore correct to argue they have the oldest legislative body. I remember hearing first about this from a Danish exchange student in my IPH class in university.

Enjoy a detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf


Ok legislative body is something different than saying oldest democracy and even that one can be challenged.

What I said, and I stand by it the US is the oldest democracy in the world. For that you need for it to run uninterrupted. The US has been running uninterrupted for longer than any other country in the world.

If you want to set different qualifications for this, you may very well find that your claim can be challenged with many others.

http://www.tynwald.org.im/Pages/default.aspx

https://www.pbs.org/native-america/blog ... democracy/

The US has had no kings, queens, military dictatorships, etc uninterrupted since 1776, every leader has been duly elected. That's the oldest democracy.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11948
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 12:10 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Try to read the link before you post:

1262 Icelanders swear fealty to the King of Norway
1397 Formation of Kalmar Union under one King in Denmark
1662 King of Denmark takes absolute power


How can that be the oldest democracy if by the same link you post it shows that a King took absolute control of Iceland, that parliament had no power with a King with absolute power over it. Again nice try at revisionist history.

World economic forum if you don't believe anything from American history:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

Iceland is the 14th oldest democracy, the US number 1 and Switzerland number 2.


Not revisionist history - the Althing body continued to meet and farmers could continue to discuss local issues and propose solutions.

According to Icelanders, the legislature only briefly ceased local functions under Danish rule. After 1262 the king had executive power and Icelandic parliament shared formal legislative powers. Icelanders are therefore correct to argue they have the oldest legislative body. I remember hearing first about this from a Danish exchange student in my IPH class in university.

Enjoy a detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf


Ok legislative body is something different than saying oldest democracy and even that one can be challenged.

What I said, and I stand by it the US is the oldest democracy in the world. For that you need for it to run uninterrupted. The US has been running uninterrupted for longer than any other country in the world.

If you want to set different qualifications for this, you may very well find that your claim can be challenged with many others.

http://www.tynwald.org.im/Pages/default.aspx

https://www.pbs.org/native-america/blog ... democracy/

The US has had no kings, queens, military dictatorships, etc uninterrupted since 1776, every leader has been duly elected. That's the oldest democracy.


I am demonstrating your statements are historically flawed - up to you whether you want to click the links or not. And, for the record, we are a federal republic. As you know, the chief executive is not chosen via direct democracy. We only have direct democracy at the state and local level. Just another example of cheerleading nationalists/patriots boasting of things they had nothing to do with and were not around for.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 12:16 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Voting is a civic duty, not something you are to do at your convenience.


It can be both.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 12:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Not revisionist history - the Althing body continued to meet and farmers could continue to discuss local issues and propose solutions.

According to Icelanders, the legislature only briefly ceased local functions under Danish rule. After 1262 the king had executive power and Icelandic parliament shared formal legislative powers. Icelanders are therefore correct to argue they have the oldest legislative body. I remember hearing first about this from a Danish exchange student in my IPH class in university.

Enjoy a detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf


Ok legislative body is something different than saying oldest democracy and even that one can be challenged.

What I said, and I stand by it the US is the oldest democracy in the world. For that you need for it to run uninterrupted. The US has been running uninterrupted for longer than any other country in the world.

If you want to set different qualifications for this, you may very well find that your claim can be challenged with many others.

http://www.tynwald.org.im/Pages/default.aspx

https://www.pbs.org/native-america/blog ... democracy/

The US has had no kings, queens, military dictatorships, etc uninterrupted since 1776, every leader has been duly elected. That's the oldest democracy.


I am demonstrating your statements are historically flawed - up to you whether you want to click the links or not. And, for the record, we are a federal republic. As you know, the chief executive is not chosen via direct democracy. We only have direct democracy at the state and local level. Just another example of cheerleading nationalists/patriots boasting of things they had nothing to do with and were not around for.


Facts, that's what I posted, and your counter argument did not stick considering your claim was severely flawed. The world economic forum cheer-leading for the US? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

You are now shifting the goalposts on your response to my claim, if you don't believe the US is the oldest running democracy, well that's for you to keep believing. But you can't accuse the World economic forum of cheer-leading and possibly misinforming with their claim. It was their claim I posted not mine.

You can accuse me of cheerleading nationalist patriot all you want, yes I am proud and absolutely happy to be an American. And thankfully I have facts to prove why I should be, despite of course many of our nation's flaws and mistakes of the past. You will find no nation has a perfect history, but the claim the US is the oldest democracy in the world can't be disputed. Unless you are able to prove with facts that it is not.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11948
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 12:31 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Ok legislative body is something different than saying oldest democracy and even that one can be challenged.

What I said, and I stand by it the US is the oldest democracy in the world. For that you need for it to run uninterrupted. The US has been running uninterrupted for longer than any other country in the world.

If you want to set different qualifications for this, you may very well find that your claim can be challenged with many others.

http://www.tynwald.org.im/Pages/default.aspx

https://www.pbs.org/native-america/blog ... democracy/

The US has had no kings, queens, military dictatorships, etc uninterrupted since 1776, every leader has been duly elected. That's the oldest democracy.


I am demonstrating your statements are historically flawed - up to you whether you want to click the links or not. And, for the record, we are a federal republic. As you know, the chief executive is not chosen via direct democracy. We only have direct democracy at the state and local level. Just another example of cheerleading nationalists/patriots boasting of things they had nothing to do with and were not around for.


Facts, that's what I posted, and your counter argument did not stick considering your claim was severely flawed. The world economic forum cheer-leading for the US? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

You are now shifting the goalposts on your response to my claim, if you don't believe the US is the oldest running democracy, well that's for you to keep believing. But you can't accuse the World economic forum of cheer-leading and possibly misinforming with their claim. It was their claim I posted not mine.

You can accuse me of cheerleading nationalist patriot all you want, yes I am proud and absolutely happy to be an American. And thankfully I have facts to prove why I should be, despite of course many of our nation's flaws and mistakes of the past. You will find no nation has a perfect history, but the claim the US is the oldest democracy in the world can't be disputed. Unless you are able to prove with facts that it is not.


I provided an exceptionally detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf

Again, I am not responsible for what you believe are or are not facts. Facts are facts and are not subject to belief or emotion. Fact: Icelanders have an argument for having the oldest representative legislative system. I am not opposed to their claim.

And it's odd that you glossed over the details of the WEF claim, because they made a very important point:

Of course, when we’re talking about democracy today, we’re really talking about universal suffrage. New Zealand may have the best claim here — by 1893, the self-governing colony allowed all women and ethnicities to vote in elections.

By that measure, the US has not had a truly democratic system since 1920, and possibly 1965 if you include the Civil Rights Act. Enough of this nonsense.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 12:46 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I am demonstrating your statements are historically flawed - up to you whether you want to click the links or not. And, for the record, we are a federal republic. As you know, the chief executive is not chosen via direct democracy. We only have direct democracy at the state and local level. Just another example of cheerleading nationalists/patriots boasting of things they had nothing to do with and were not around for.


Facts, that's what I posted, and your counter argument did not stick considering your claim was severely flawed. The world economic forum cheer-leading for the US? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

You are now shifting the goalposts on your response to my claim, if you don't believe the US is the oldest running democracy, well that's for you to keep believing. But you can't accuse the World economic forum of cheer-leading and possibly misinforming with their claim. It was their claim I posted not mine.

You can accuse me of cheerleading nationalist patriot all you want, yes I am proud and absolutely happy to be an American. And thankfully I have facts to prove why I should be, despite of course many of our nation's flaws and mistakes of the past. You will find no nation has a perfect history, but the claim the US is the oldest democracy in the world can't be disputed. Unless you are able to prove with facts that it is not.


I provided an exceptionally detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf

Again, I am not responsible for what you believe are or are not facts. Facts are facts and are not subject to belief or emotion. Fact: Icelanders have an argument for having the oldest representative legislative system. I am not opposed to their claim.

And it's odd that you glossed over the details of the WEF claim, because they made a very important point:

Of course, when we’re talking about democracy today, we’re really talking about universal suffrage. New Zealand may have the best claim here — by 1893, the self-governing colony allowed all women and ethnicities to vote in elections.

By that measure, the US has not had a truly democratic system since 1920, and possibly 1965 if you include the Civil Rights Act. Enough of this nonsense.


Again, shifting the goalposts, here is what you wrote and what has prompted this discussion between you and me:

let’s at least start with the US not being anywhere near the oldest democratic system. There has been a functioning parliament in Iceland for over 1,000 years that still goes by its original name. Learn about your world to avoid silly statements.


You did not say "oldest representative legislative " when you wrote this, you said the US doesn't have the oldest democratic system. In the same WEF link it says Iceland only became independent recently, so it doesn't qualify. And yes I read that too, and they still said the US is the oldest democratic country in the world.

If you want to win this debate without accepting you made a mistake on your initial claim, ok that's fine. We could end it here by your new claim that Iceland has the oldest legislative body, but you can't say the US is not the oldest democratic country in the world.

There is a clear distinction between an parliamentary representative body and a democracy with elected leaders, the UK had long ago in the early 1700's a functioning parliament, but it wasn't till 1885 that has been a fully functioning democracy when they directly elected the members of parliament.

So lets not change things, just to win an argument please. You can't provide any facts to prove the contrary of my claim, stop moving goalposts.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12888
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 12:56 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
GDB wrote:
So how did you cope in the 1944 election? Millions of voters serving aboard or just away from their own states?
Maybe I answered my own question, look who won.

In the UK, the election that had to be held by 1940 was obviously put off, country fighting for it's life and all that. A coalition ruled though there were by-elections in Parliamentary seats when required by the sitting MP standing down for whatever reason. When things were going badly, the favored choice for Churchill often lost usually to mavericks.

Come the July 1945 General Election, millions of votes had to be mailed from the still active front in the Far East and from numerous garrisons all over the world.
Hence the three week delay between casting the votes and the announcement.

If the worn out, bankrupted UK, could do this, with the fastest means of transport being piston powered aircraft, 75 years ago, WTF is up the the US today?

Along with voter suppression, gerrymandering, machines that can be hacked, US Democracy is more and more becoming an oxymoron.



The US is not a Democracy, but a Republic .... thats what Americans keep telling me ... For some reason a lot of Americans don't seem to understand that one can be both at the same time ...


I say this as an American.....I question how many people in this country know we’re a democracy or a republic.

Marc


You are both. The only republics that aren't democracies are dictatorships. The US is simply a federal representative democratic presidential republic.

But yes, plenty of people, even board members, refuse dictionary definitions of those words.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6266
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 1:34 pm

1 - Can elections be postponed?

Sure the states can postpone the elections. The combination of the Constitution and applicable federal laws mandates that the states certify electors for the position of President and Vice President and those ballots by each state electors be presented in Washington in early December. Those ballots are then certified and a result of the election by the Electoral College is certified as correct by the Congress in early January. At that point, the 'election' is complete. Nothing requires that individual citizens cast ballots for President.

2. If there is no election, Donald Trump remains as President?

No. If there is no 'vote' by the electoral college, Donald Trump's term as US President is over at Noon, Jan 20, 2021. Mike Pence's term as Vice President is over at the same time. He does NOT become President.

3. Does Nancy Pelosi become President if there is no election?

No. Just as important, maybe more important, is the election for members of Congress. States have very wide latitude in how they individually choose members of Congress and the Senate.

The current terms of all members of the House of Representatives, and about 1/3 members of the Senate expires in early January. A NEW Congress must convene, and that Congress must certify the election of a President. One of the first duties of the new House of Representatives will be to choose a NEW Speaker of the House. If the Democratic Party holds a majority in the new House of Representatives, the NEW Speaker may well be Pelosi. Provided she retains a seat in the House.

I see some debate currently occurring about the ability of State Governors to appoint new Senators and Representatives if there is no election this November for Congress. So, could Republican governors appoint only Republican Congress men.

Texas has 23 Republicans and 13 Democrats.
New York has 5 Republicans and 21 Democrats. One NY seat is currently open pending a 'special election' which was scheduled for 28 April 2020
California has 6 Republicans and 45 Democrats - two vacant seats are in CA currently

If the Texas governor appoints 36 Republicans and the New York and California governors appoint 27 and 50 Democrats each - the Republicans actually have a net loss of one seat in the new Congress (the three vacant seats were Republicans, and it is presumed that at least two of those seats will be won by Republicans. One in CA is a toss-up),

But some state constitutions and laws limit the ability of the Governor to fill vacant seats in Congress and the Senate.

There must be an election this fall.

Mail-in Ballots - a couple states do that. A great many voters vote by absentee mail-in ballot every election. Other states such as Texas allow political party workers to take large numbers of blank ballots to nursing homes and senior living centers and 'assist' elderly voters cast ballots in each election.

All election methods are subject to 'fraud' and 'abuse'. Especially since the United States refuses to consider a system where by each person receives a proof of identity card issued on a national level. Fortunately, the incidence of voter fraud occurring in the US is very low. Study after study has found very few instances of illegal voting.

The 'liberals' and 'conservatives' both hate and fight against the idea of a complete federal level registry of citizens, with rights of voting, working and other things.
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lugie
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 1:46 pm

NWAESC wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Voting is a civic duty, not something you are to do at your convenience.


It can be both.


And it should be. At least some parts of the US are waking up to that.
Example: More states should follow what the Commonwealth of Virginia is doing - they stopped observing "Lee-Jackson Day" (dedicated to none other than genocidal Confederate generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson) but instead of dropping the public holiday altogether, they moved it onto Election Day for the first time ever this year.

Serious question to you AirWorthy: What is your opinion on compulsory voting like what Belgium, Luxembourg, Costa Rica or Brazil -among others- have, for example?
This would live up to the true value of the act as the highest civic duty while also ensuring that everyone is easily able to do so, thus preventing dirty voter suppression tricks. People could obviously still vote blank, write in candidates, or use their ballots for any kind of protest and expression of discontent with the available political options.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:12 pm

lugie wrote:

Serious question to you AirWorthy: What is your opinion on compulsory voting like what Belgium, Luxembourg, Costa Rica or Brazil -among others- have, for example?
This would live up to the true value of the act as the highest civic duty while also ensuring that everyone is easily able to do so, thus preventing dirty voter suppression tricks. People could obviously still vote blank, write in candidates, or use their ballots for any kind of protest and expression of discontent with the available political options.


Government mandating and obligating free individuals to do something with the risk of imprisonment or fines, that's not I think the best way to create a voluntary and self conscious act as voting in a free and open society.

Forcing people to vote, is undemocratic. We American's hate being told what to do, we have it enough with the government enforcing their laws and telling us to pay taxes. We are protected under the first amendment to speak or not to speak. We like to be left alone by our government, and not controlling our lives and forcing us to do things, so we are free not to speak if we don't want. That's our main spirit, despite what many in the left want it to make it appear to be.

Of course, its great more people vote freely. And forcing people to vote, is another thing the left thinks is necessary to transform America to what they believe is the big government utopia they dream of. But that's not going to happen, and as a testament of how great is our system of freedom, as I have posted above, we are the longest running democracy in the world. No need to change something that has worked absolutely wonderful.

With these existing conditions, Democrats and Republicans have won power. There is no dictatorship or tyranny in the US, so no need to revise our systems. Its not perfect, but it strives to be a perfect union, and the facts show it has worked wonderfully.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:20 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Facts, that's what I posted, and your counter argument did not stick considering your claim was severely flawed. The world economic forum cheer-leading for the US? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

You are now shifting the goalposts on your response to my claim, if you don't believe the US is the oldest running democracy, well that's for you to keep believing. But you can't accuse the World economic forum of cheer-leading and possibly misinforming with their claim. It was their claim I posted not mine.

You can accuse me of cheerleading nationalist patriot all you want, yes I am proud and absolutely happy to be an American. And thankfully I have facts to prove why I should be, despite of course many of our nation's flaws and mistakes of the past. You will find no nation has a perfect history, but the claim the US is the oldest democracy in the world can't be disputed. Unless you are able to prove with facts that it is not.


I provided an exceptionally detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf

Again, I am not responsible for what you believe are or are not facts. Facts are facts and are not subject to belief or emotion. Fact: Icelanders have an argument for having the oldest representative legislative system. I am not opposed to their claim.

And it's odd that you glossed over the details of the WEF claim, because they made a very important point:

Of course, when we’re talking about democracy today, we’re really talking about universal suffrage. New Zealand may have the best claim here — by 1893, the self-governing colony allowed all women and ethnicities to vote in elections.

By that measure, the US has not had a truly democratic system since 1920, and possibly 1965 if you include the Civil Rights Act. Enough of this nonsense.


Again, shifting the goalposts, here is what you wrote and what has prompted this discussion between you and me:

let’s at least start with the US not being anywhere near the oldest democratic system. There has been a functioning parliament in Iceland for over 1,000 years that still goes by its original name. Learn about your world to avoid silly statements.


You did not say "oldest representative legislative " when you wrote this, you said the US doesn't have the oldest democratic system. In the same WEF link it says Iceland only became independent recently, so it doesn't qualify. And yes I read that too, and they still said the US is the oldest democratic country in the world.

If you want to win this debate without accepting you made a mistake on your initial claim, ok that's fine. We could end it here by your new claim that Iceland has the oldest legislative body, but you can't say the US is not the oldest democratic country in the world.

There is a clear distinction between an parliamentary representative body and a democracy with elected leaders, the UK had long ago in the early 1700's a functioning parliament, but it wasn't till 1885 that has been a fully functioning democracy when they directly elected the members of parliament.

So lets not change things, just to win an argument please. You can't provide any facts to prove the contrary of my claim, stop moving goalposts.


Nope. If you’re arguing ‘fully functioning democracy’, which logically means both genders and all minorities can vote, then the Kiwis prevail over us since 1893. The WEF says so.

And instead of using ‘we Americans’ you should speak for yourself. We are essentially fifty nation-states - our education system and values are not yours in Florida, thank God.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I provided an exceptionally detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf

Again, I am not responsible for what you believe are or are not facts. Facts are facts and are not subject to belief or emotion. Fact: Icelanders have an argument for having the oldest representative legislative system. I am not opposed to their claim.

And it's odd that you glossed over the details of the WEF claim, because they made a very important point:

Of course, when we’re talking about democracy today, we’re really talking about universal suffrage. New Zealand may have the best claim here — by 1893, the self-governing colony allowed all women and ethnicities to vote in elections.

By that measure, the US has not had a truly democratic system since 1920, and possibly 1965 if you include the Civil Rights Act. Enough of this nonsense.


Again, shifting the goalposts, here is what you wrote and what has prompted this discussion between you and me:

let’s at least start with the US not being anywhere near the oldest democratic system. There has been a functioning parliament in Iceland for over 1,000 years that still goes by its original name. Learn about your world to avoid silly statements.


You did not say "oldest representative legislative " when you wrote this, you said the US doesn't have the oldest democratic system. In the same WEF link it says Iceland only became independent recently, so it doesn't qualify. And yes I read that too, and they still said the US is the oldest democratic country in the world.

If you want to win this debate without accepting you made a mistake on your initial claim, ok that's fine. We could end it here by your new claim that Iceland has the oldest legislative body, but you can't say the US is not the oldest democratic country in the world.

There is a clear distinction between an parliamentary representative body and a democracy with elected leaders, the UK had long ago in the early 1700's a functioning parliament, but it wasn't till 1885 that has been a fully functioning democracy when they directly elected the members of parliament.

So lets not change things, just to win an argument please. You can't provide any facts to prove the contrary of my claim, stop moving goalposts.


Nope. If you’re arguing ‘fully functioning democracy’, which logically means both genders and all minorities can vote, then the Kiwis prevail over us since 1893. The WEF says so.

And instead of using ‘we Americans’ you should speak for yourself. We are essentially fifty nation-states - our education system and values are not yours in Florida, thank God.


Oh ok, so again moving the goalposts. It was Iceland, now is New Zealand. I never claimed the US was the first nation to allow universal voting for all men and women, neither did you when you posted earlier today, but now its the only measure allows you to win. According to the WEF that was not the criteria for the oldest democracy in the world. My claim, and still stands the US is the oldest democracy in the world, like it or not, its the truth.

I know that post-modernist college education is telling us America is bad, and all of that, thankfully I did not fall for that when I was in college.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:31 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Again, shifting the goalposts, here is what you wrote and what has prompted this discussion between you and me:



You did not say "oldest representative legislative " when you wrote this, you said the US doesn't have the oldest democratic system. In the same WEF link it says Iceland only became independent recently, so it doesn't qualify. And yes I read that too, and they still said the US is the oldest democratic country in the world.

If you want to win this debate without accepting you made a mistake on your initial claim, ok that's fine. We could end it here by your new claim that Iceland has the oldest legislative body, but you can't say the US is not the oldest democratic country in the world.

There is a clear distinction between an parliamentary representative body and a democracy with elected leaders, the UK had long ago in the early 1700's a functioning parliament, but it wasn't till 1885 that has been a fully functioning democracy when they directly elected the members of parliament.

So lets not change things, just to win an argument please. You can't provide any facts to prove the contrary of my claim, stop moving goalposts.


Nope. If you’re arguing ‘fully functioning democracy’, which logically means both genders and all minorities can vote, then the Kiwis prevail over us since 1893. The WEF says so.

And instead of using ‘we Americans’ you should speak for yourself. We are essentially fifty nation-states - our education system and values are not yours in Florida, thank God.


Oh ok, so again moving the goalposts. It was Iceland, now is New Zealand. I never claimed the US was the first nation to allow universal voting for all men and women, neither did you when you posted earlier today, but now its the only measure allows you to win. According to the WEF that was not the criteria for the oldest democracy in the world. My claim, and still stands the US is the oldest democracy in the world, like it or not, its the truth.

I know that post-modernist college education is telling us America is bad, and all of that, thankfully I did not fall for that when I was in college.


No country is ‘good or bad’ - that’s for us to decide based on values, merit, and factual observation. Anyway folks - ‘it’s the truth’, because one organization said so. The world according to AirWorthy :sarcastic:
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 2:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Nope. If you’re arguing ‘fully functioning democracy’, which logically means both genders and all minorities can vote, then the Kiwis prevail over us since 1893. The WEF says so.

And instead of using ‘we Americans’ you should speak for yourself. We are essentially fifty nation-states - our education system and values are not yours in Florida, thank God.


Oh ok, so again moving the goalposts. It was Iceland, now is New Zealand. I never claimed the US was the first nation to allow universal voting for all men and women, neither did you when you posted earlier today, but now its the only measure allows you to win. According to the WEF that was not the criteria for the oldest democracy in the world. My claim, and still stands the US is the oldest democracy in the world, like it or not, its the truth.

I know that post-modernist college education is telling us America is bad, and all of that, thankfully I did not fall for that when I was in college.


No country is ‘good or bad’ - that’s for us to decide based on values, merit, and factual observation. Anyway folks - ‘it’s the truth’, because one organization said so. The world according to AirWorthy :sarcastic:


It's only the 'truth' because I am not allowing feelings cloud my judgment to see the facts. Fine for history revisionists and those who want to play with facts in order to support their post modernist narratives.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 3:28 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
Yes, it should be cancelled. Nancy Pelosi would make a great President.


You’re assuming she’ll be re-elected, and chosen as Speaker again.

Marc


As would anyone with any knowledge of the situation, yes. She has an 86% approval rating, which is hardly surprising given the extreme wealth of her district. Her opponents are a bunch of trainess no one ever heard of and that whack job lady who seems to think people in Marin County care what Alex Jones thinks, for some reason.

She will still be speaker.
Last edited by DarkSnowyNight on Wed May 06, 2020 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aaron747
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 3:38 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Oh ok, so again moving the goalposts. It was Iceland, now is New Zealand. I never claimed the US was the first nation to allow universal voting for all men and women, neither did you when you posted earlier today, but now its the only measure allows you to win. According to the WEF that was not the criteria for the oldest democracy in the world. My claim, and still stands the US is the oldest democracy in the world, like it or not, its the truth.

I know that post-modernist college education is telling us America is bad, and all of that, thankfully I did not fall for that when I was in college.


No country is ‘good or bad’ - that’s for us to decide based on values, merit, and factual observation. Anyway folks - ‘it’s the truth’, because one organization said so. The world according to AirWorthy :sarcastic:


It's only the 'truth' because I am not allowing feelings cloud my judgment to see the facts. Fine for history revisionists and those who want to play with facts in order to support their post modernist narratives.


Uh huh, mmmmkay. Pot, meet kettle. :crazy:
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precure787
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 3:38 pm

Maybe one proposal is that the House of Representatives should decide the next president instead of normal voters. (However, this move can only happen if the candidates fall short of the 270 electoral votes).
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 3:47 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

No country is ‘good or bad’ - that’s for us to decide based on values, merit, and factual observation. Anyway folks - ‘it’s the truth’, because one organization said so. The world according to AirWorthy :sarcastic:


It's only the 'truth' because I am not allowing feelings cloud my judgment to see the facts. Fine for history revisionists and those who want to play with facts in order to support their post modernist narratives.


Uh huh, mmmmkay. Pot, meet kettle. :crazy:


Ok, I am still waiting for either a retraction or at least showing facts of what you said here:

let’s at least start with the US not being anywhere near the oldest democratic system


It wasn't me who decided to challenge you. You did.
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GDB
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:02 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I am demonstrating your statements are historically flawed - up to you whether you want to click the links or not. And, for the record, we are a federal republic. As you know, the chief executive is not chosen via direct democracy. We only have direct democracy at the state and local level. Just another example of cheerleading nationalists/patriots boasting of things they had nothing to do with and were not around for.


Facts, that's what I posted, and your counter argument did not stick considering your claim was severely flawed. The world economic forum cheer-leading for the US? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

You are now shifting the goalposts on your response to my claim, if you don't believe the US is the oldest running democracy, well that's for you to keep believing. But you can't accuse the World economic forum of cheer-leading and possibly misinforming with their claim. It was their claim I posted not mine.

You can accuse me of cheerleading nationalist patriot all you want, yes I am proud and absolutely happy to be an American. And thankfully I have facts to prove why I should be, despite of course many of our nation's flaws and mistakes of the past. You will find no nation has a perfect history, but the claim the US is the oldest democracy in the world can't be disputed. Unless you are able to prove with facts that it is not.


I provided an exceptionally detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf

Again, I am not responsible for what you believe are or are not facts. Facts are facts and are not subject to belief or emotion. Fact: Icelanders have an argument for having the oldest representative legislative system. I am not opposed to their claim.

And it's odd that you glossed over the details of the WEF claim, because they made a very important point:

Of course, when we’re talking about democracy today, we’re really talking about universal suffrage. New Zealand may have the best claim here — by 1893, the self-governing colony allowed all women and ethnicities to vote in elections.

By that measure, the US has not had a truly democratic system since 1920, and possibly 1965 if you include the Civil Rights Act. Enough of this nonsense.


Certainly not until the 1965 act. Before then, no.
In fact even the USSR, of all places, used the violent racism, enshrined in laws in many parts of the US, as a major PR tool. Around this time the US and USSR were both trying to influence all those newly independent nations with non while populations, they took great pleasure in showing US TV footage of cops beating on peaceful protestors and the in-bred 'polite good ol' people' also screaming abuse from their flabby hate filled features and worse.

When Obama was born in 1961, for diplomats from these African countries, Washington was considered a hardship posting, have trouble getting served in a decent eating establishment, worse a cop might start on you and chances are he would have no idea what a diplomat was.

Then when British rock bands started having success in the states, they were shocked that their African American roadies and drivers were frightened to go to certain places, even if they were allowed to.
Certainly the Beatles and others refused to play segregated concerts. (They made an enemy of the KKK and other in-bred 'Christians').
And they were from a place that had recently had an Empire! Though of course there was racism back home, it was NEVER enforced by law, in fact laws were passed to outlaw it in recruitment, access to places, after Commonwealth immigration post war.

You can find on You Tube information films from WW2, for G.I.'s coming here, warning them that there are no segregation laws in Britain.

Since then, one party has been chipping away at the 1965 act, used it and the resentment it created as their 'Southern Strategy'.
It only took nearly 200 years to actually have voting rights in the land of the free not based on colour.
 
AA747123
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:22 pm

The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud. It is bad enough when voting in person. To vote you should be required to show PROOF of citizenship such as a US Passport.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:27 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

She will still be speaker.


History could repeat itself if Biden was to miraculously beat Trump and the Dems don't have the courage to tell Nancy her far left doctrine is done and remove her as speaker you could have a repeat.. I mean you had Obama win in 2008 and Reid and Pelosi basically hijacked the party so far left that in 2010 the country gave a wave election on the hill to the GOP. Pelosi will never lose her seat but she should be told soon her leadership in the house whether as Majority or Minority leader is no longer required. She is just too bitter a partisan. It can't be sustained.
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bmartino99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:29 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

She will still be speaker.


History could repeat itself if Biden was to miraculously beat Trump and the Dems don't have the courage to tell Nancy her far left doctrine is done and remove her as speaker you could have a repeat.. I mean you had Obama win in 2008 and Reid and Pelosi basically hijacked the party so far left that in 2010 the country gave a wave election on the hill to the GOP. Pelosi will never lose her seat but she should be told soon her leadership in the house whether as Majority or Minority leader is no longer required. She is just too bitter a partisan. It can't be sustained.


I think there's a lot of people on the far left that would tell you that Pelosi is not "far left".
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:40 pm

bmartino99 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

She will still be speaker.


History could repeat itself if Biden was to miraculously beat Trump and the Dems don't have the courage to tell Nancy her far left doctrine is done and remove her as speaker you could have a repeat.. I mean you had Obama win in 2008 and Reid and Pelosi basically hijacked the party so far left that in 2010 the country gave a wave election on the hill to the GOP. Pelosi will never lose her seat but she should be told soon her leadership in the house whether as Majority or Minority leader is no longer required. She is just too bitter a partisan. It can't be sustained.


I think there's a lot of people on the far left that would tell you that Pelosi is not "far left".


Definitely so. The really nutty SJWs in the Bay Area can’t stand her because she’s too ‘establishment’.
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Newark727
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:42 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

She will still be speaker.


History could repeat itself if Biden was to miraculously beat Trump and the Dems don't have the courage to tell Nancy her far left doctrine is done and remove her as speaker you could have a repeat.. I mean you had Obama win in 2008 and Reid and Pelosi basically hijacked the party so far left that in 2010 the country gave a wave election on the hill to the GOP. Pelosi will never lose her seat but she should be told soon her leadership in the house whether as Majority or Minority leader is no longer required. She is just too bitter a partisan. It can't be sustained.


If you look at the Obama years and see the Democrats as the hyper-partisans, your frame of reference is so skewed as to be unrecognizable to me. Republican Congresses were completely open and unapologetic about their desire for the Obama presidency to fail, and every Democratic effort at bipartisanship was met with indifference at best or outright sabotage at worst. The Democratic base today has moved, if anything, to Pelosi's left, and with the centrists met with such concerted bad faith, why wouldn't they?
 
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seb146
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 4:56 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Since when you spent the entire 24 hours of an election day voting? common sense says you can take your kids to school, work, go to vote in between, or after, it only takes 10 minutes or 15 max. If you can spare 15 minutes of the day not doing anything, I am sure you can during that day come up with time.


Explain the hours that people stand in line waiting to vote?

https://www.businessinsider.com/people- ... ous-2020-3
https://www.propublica.org/article/thes ... nchisement
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... for-whites
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... te/264506/


Oh my goodness, I spent 3+ years waiting to get rid of Trump, but I can't spend a few hours trying to help getting rid of him.

If you or any other Trump hater sums up the amount of time you spent in this forum criticizing Trump, you will find totals in hours spent doing that maybe weeks times in a year.

Certainly come election day you can afford a few hours if they run into trouble.

This makes the case that those who will vote in November are the most motivated ones, based on everything I have seen in the MSM and forums like these, there is more motivation against Trump than towards him, if that's any reasonable sort of measure (which I doubt), then Trump will lose badly even with the pandemic in full gear.

Unless of course, Trump supporters are less worried about the pandemic and more about normal life, which is something I have seen these past weeks.


You just downshifted from "why are you all upset over 15 minutes" to "why are you all upset over a few hours". wow. just wow.

You also know that these long lines are generally in districts and precincts where Democrats and minorities are the majority, right? These districts drawn by Republicans in the last census?

https://theintercept.com/2019/09/27/ger ... ler-memos/
https://www.businessinsider.com/partisa ... ats-2017-6

Maybe if Republicans put their money where their mouth is and walked the talk, EVERYONE would be able to vote. But, they don't want that because they would lose power.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 5:02 pm

GDB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Facts, that's what I posted, and your counter argument did not stick considering your claim was severely flawed. The world economic forum cheer-leading for the US? https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/08/ ... emocracies

You are now shifting the goalposts on your response to my claim, if you don't believe the US is the oldest running democracy, well that's for you to keep believing. But you can't accuse the World economic forum of cheer-leading and possibly misinforming with their claim. It was their claim I posted not mine.

You can accuse me of cheerleading nationalist patriot all you want, yes I am proud and absolutely happy to be an American. And thankfully I have facts to prove why I should be, despite of course many of our nation's flaws and mistakes of the past. You will find no nation has a perfect history, but the claim the US is the oldest democracy in the world can't be disputed. Unless you are able to prove with facts that it is not.


I provided an exceptionally detailed account here:

https://www.althingi.is/pdf/enska.pdf

Again, I am not responsible for what you believe are or are not facts. Facts are facts and are not subject to belief or emotion. Fact: Icelanders have an argument for having the oldest representative legislative system. I am not opposed to their claim.

And it's odd that you glossed over the details of the WEF claim, because they made a very important point:

Of course, when we’re talking about democracy today, we’re really talking about universal suffrage. New Zealand may have the best claim here — by 1893, the self-governing colony allowed all women and ethnicities to vote in elections.

By that measure, the US has not had a truly democratic system since 1920, and possibly 1965 if you include the Civil Rights Act. Enough of this nonsense.


Certainly not until the 1965 act. Before then, no.
In fact even the USSR, of all places, used the violent racism, enshrined in laws in many parts of the US, as a major PR tool. Around this time the US and USSR were both trying to influence all those newly independent nations with non while populations, they took great pleasure in showing US TV footage of cops beating on peaceful protestors and the in-bred 'polite good ol' people' also screaming abuse from their flabby hate filled features and worse.

When Obama was born in 1961, for diplomats from these African countries, Washington was considered a hardship posting, have trouble getting served in a decent eating establishment, worse a cop might start on you and chances are he would have no idea what a diplomat was.

Then when British rock bands started having success in the states, they were shocked that their African American roadies and drivers were frightened to go to certain places, even if they were allowed to.
Certainly the Beatles and others refused to play segregated concerts. (They made an enemy of the KKK and other in-bred 'Christians').
And they were from a place that had recently had an Empire! Though of course there was racism back home, it was NEVER enforced by law, in fact laws were passed to outlaw it in recruitment, access to places, after Commonwealth immigration post war.

You can find on You Tube information films from WW2, for G.I.'s coming here, warning them that there are no segregation laws in Britain.

Since then, one party has been chipping away at the 1965 act, used it and the resentment it created as their 'Southern Strategy'.
It only took nearly 200 years to actually have voting rights in the land of the free not based on colour.


I was listening to an interview with a man who extensively researched Henry Wallace, the first vice president chosen by FDR. He made several speeches against fascism right here in the United States. Some of them during WWII, after the VP nomination went to Truman.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes ... _A_Wallace

What was once old is new again...
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GDB
Posts: 13677
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 5:09 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud. It is bad enough when voting in person. To vote you should be required to show PROOF of citizenship such as a US Passport.


No it isn't, a decent proportion of votes in UK elections (and I suspect many others) do not have this 'problem'.
In proper mature democracies that is.

It's a naked excuse to hang on to power by a shrinking demographic.

Funny how you mention a US passport in a nation which has in the West the lowest proportion of passport holders, thus proving it's an attempt to prevent lower income people, especially from minorities.
God, you are so scared of them casting a vote.

Fear. The true nature of the GOP base.
Goes with the gun obsession.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2638
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 6:24 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

She will still be speaker.


History could repeat itself if Biden was to miraculously beat Trump and the Dems don't have the courage to tell Nancy her far left doctrine is done and remove her as speaker you could have a repeat.. I mean you had Obama win in 2008 and Reid and Pelosi basically hijacked the party so far left that in 2010 the country gave a wave election on the hill to the GOP. Pelosi will never lose her seat but she should be told soon her leadership in the house whether as Majority or Minority leader is no longer required. She is just too bitter a partisan. It can't be sustained.


What?? Heh. No.

I understand that being more than a little radicalized puts you in a place to see her that way, but she is most assuredly not. It is a likelihood that butting heads with the Squad is what she spends a good portion of her week doing. Pelosi is relatively centrist and not politically distinct from Obama. Again, since you seem to be in the back of the studio on this one, she will still be speaker.

Newark727 wrote:

If you look at the Obama years and see the Democrats as the hyper-partisans, your frame of reference is so skewed as to be unrecognizable to me. Republican Congresses were completely open and unapologetic about their desire for the Obama presidency to fail, and every Democratic effort at bipartisanship was met with indifference at best or outright sabotage at worst. The Democratic base today has moved, if anything, to Pelosi's left, and with the centrists met with such concerted bad faith, why wouldn't they?


Good summation. I tend to take a more modern, global view of things, so the idea that Pelosi is 'far left' tells me more about the person saying it than anything else.

I think the real issue those types have is that she is starting to push back on their lunacy, and rightly so.


Aaron747 wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:

I think there's a lot of people on the far left that would tell you that Pelosi is not "far left".


Definitely so. The really nutty SJWs in the Bay Area can’t stand her because she’s too ‘establishment’.


Yep. What I hear most is not so much criticism of her actual positioning, but that she is too corporate, whatever that means. I think she has the most internal resistance from the working class end of the party.

The SJW crowd and far left do not like her, but even a lot of the party's middle ground thinks she has been far too forgiving with trump and the MAGA sector. This is because she has been far too forgiving with trump and the MAGA sector.

She is getting better about that, but there is still room to improve.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3173
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 6:47 pm

100 % cancel the election

FGITD wrote:
Been discussed at some length in other threads...

No election doesn’t mean the whoever holds the position gets to keep it. There’s a very long and complicated line of succession , and it is greatly impacted by not holding an election. If I remember right, not holding an election this November would result in a Senator from Vermont (no, not THAT one) being placed as president.

Either way, the term ends on January 20 at noon.


Nope not the Senator from Vermont.

KFTG wrote:
Yes, it should be cancelled. Nancy Pelosi would make a great President.


We have a winner.

I say go for it if only to watch a number of heads explode.

A number of my Republican friends (I am a registered Republican btw, but think that Trump has done more harm to this country than anyone since Jefferson Davis) have gotten it into their head that Trump would just go on being President, the arguments that follow when it's pointed out that Pelosi would in fact take over are, lets say heated.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8358
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 7:15 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
lugie wrote:

Serious question to you AirWorthy: What is your opinion on compulsory voting like what Belgium, Luxembourg, Costa Rica or Brazil -among others- have, for example?
This would live up to the true value of the act as the highest civic duty while also ensuring that everyone is easily able to do so, thus preventing dirty voter suppression tricks. People could obviously still vote blank, write in candidates, or use their ballots for any kind of protest and expression of discontent with the available political options.


Government mandating and obligating free individuals to do something with the risk of imprisonment or fines, that's not I think the best way to create a voluntary and self conscious act as voting in a free and open society.

A blank or spoiled ballot is still a vote nonetheless, and one that does not support any candidate. If there had been mandatory voting for the 2016 election, if no one wanted any of the major or minor candidates, they could have easily spoiled the ballot. Vote goes to no one and you'll have fulfilled your duty without penalty.

Oh, don't want to stand in line or be burdened? Then why support (or be indifferent to) making it harder for others?

I think Nevada's None of the Above option should be federally mandated for all elections (if not state, at least for federal office), and be given equal status with a candidate. If a district or state elects "None of the Above", then either a redo election with other candidates is done (for congressional elections) or the votes are considered abstained (for the EC). No spoiled/blank ballots while communicating the unacceptability of the candidates which, if it gathers a large margin, means disliked candidates will not receive their position.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8358
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 7:16 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud. It is bad enough when voting in person. To vote you should be required to show PROOF of citizenship such as a US Passport.

Federal courts disagree.

Suck it up buttercup.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6266
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 7:16 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud. It is bad enough when voting in person. To vote you should be required to show PROOF of citizenship such as a US Passport.


Please cite a source of your statement regarding "overwhelming voter fraud"

Over 1/3 of votes for major elections across the country are cast by mail, or early voting.

My wife and I are Texas residents - and we ALWAYS vote by mail, with absentee ballots. Because we are over age 65, we have permanent permission to vote absentee by Texas law..

During all of my 20 years serving in the US military I was never a single time in a location where I could vote in person.

Investigations into Oregon vote by mail have shown over and over the amount of 'vote fraud' is significantly lower that other states. Since Colorado and Washington joined the vote by mail only method, neither state has shown evidence of voter fraud increasing.

---------------------------------------

I agree that when a person registers to vote, they should show some proof of identify and citizenship. And you are correct that no state issued ID ever establishes proof of citizenship. Other than a US Passport, other documents establishes proof if US citizenship and right to vote - a Certificate of Naturalization.- a Certificate of Citizenship - a Consular Report of Birth of Abroad (CRBA). My daughter was born at US Air Force Hospital at Clark AFB in the Philippines. Her Birth Certificate was issued by the local Philippine civil government. But because she was my child, and I was a US citizen at the time, we completed the CBRA at the US Embassy in Manila.

By US law, my daughter is a 'natural born citizen' of the United States. But because she had trouble with Texas government officials trying to say she was not a citizen in high school, we went to INS and got her a Certificate of Citizenship issued.

---------------------------------------

Currently to obtain a passport, the US government continues to charge $145 for a first time application, and it take two to three months to issue the passport. I guess you want everyone in the US to get a passport before September 1.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
FGITD
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Wed May 06, 2020 7:56 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
100 % cancel the election

FGITD wrote:
Been discussed at some length in other threads...

No election doesn’t mean the whoever holds the position gets to keep it. There’s a very long and complicated line of succession , and it is greatly impacted by not holding an election. If I remember right, not holding an election this November would result in a Senator from Vermont (no, not THAT one) being placed as president.

Either way, the term ends on January 20 at noon.


Nope not the Senator from Vermont.

KFTG wrote:
Yes, it should be cancelled. Nancy Pelosi would make a great President.


We have a winner.

I say go for it if only to watch a number of heads explode.

A number of my Republican friends (I am a registered Republican btw, but think that Trump has done more harm to this country than anyone since Jefferson Davis) have gotten it into their head that Trump would just go on being President, the arguments that follow when it's pointed out that Pelosi would in fact take over are, lets say heated.



Nancy Pelosi's term ends on January 3, 2021. So assuming no election is held, she wouldn't be in office to take the role of presidency.

Remember, it's not just the president being voted for in November.

It's all very complicated but holding no election would effectively destroy the house.
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 2:55 am

bmartino99 wrote:
I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base


that would be essentially zero people

the only thing Trump voters love is white supremacy
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 2:57 am

bmartino99 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base to be ready for open revolt if Trump even tried something like canceling the election.


Your faith in the adherence to democratic norms of Trump supporters greatly exceeds my own.


Perhaps my faith is misplaced. We have seen populations throughout history continue to support a freely elected leader even as that leader turns towards an authoritarian leader. I still would expect these same folks that are currently protesting the lockdown at state capitals, to be the first in line to protest any Trump suggestion at canceling the election.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

they're not "protesting" because they value "freedom," they're threatening people because they're not being allowed to harm others

the ability to harm others is not a part of any meaningful conception of "freedom," but that's what these degenerates are insisting on--the exact opposite of freedom
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 3:01 am

AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud.


you mean the thing that happens astonishingly rarely?

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