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ltbewr
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 3:45 am

The November elections are not just for President, but for all members of the House, about 1/3 of Senators, as well as many State, county and local officials. Postponement would make it difficult for those elections to be held and allow enough time for results by statutory set dates for those who won to take office.

As to Voting by Mail (VBM). it isn't perfect, but one big advantage its a hard paper ballot that can be held for audits. I voted by mail in 2017, 2018 & 2019 as was on vacation during the general November election date, My state, New Jersey, allows for VBM without any statutory excuse. VBM likely means more will vote out of convenience, if the weather is bad, one cannot drive to a polling station or have health conditions that make it difficult to vote in person. As the Pandemic will be still active this fall's election, it is even more imperative to have the option of voting by mail. One flaw with VBM is that some states only allow the counting (usually by computer connected scanners) after in-person polls close and with growing numbers of persons using VBM it may mean delays in initial results and winners want to know by 11 PM local time across the country who won/lost, especially the winner of the Presidential race.

About 2 weeks ago, South Korea had a National election for their Parliament. Most voting was in-person. Precautions were taken to minimize infection risks. I recall news reports saying the turnout was higher than past such elections. When it comes down to it and critical enough, people will go out to vote.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 5:10 am

Does anyone have any insight into why the US voting system seems to actively work against wider engagement in voting?

Leaving aside Australia's compulsory attendance (with secret ballot, you can vote informally, although not encouraged), elections are held on a Saturday, many voting booths (need established by independent bodies at State and Federal levels - I've never had to wait longer than 10mins), and mail and increasingly eVoting is increasing. Given you are required to "attend", this is facilitated.
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tommy1808
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 5:47 am

AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud. It is bad enough when voting in person. To vote you should be required to show PROOF of citizenship such as a US Passport.


That is a bold statement, and as per forum rules you need to provide a source for the claim.

Seems to be unsupported by data and just as easily detected as in person fraud: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whiteh ... dcases.pdf

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 5:52 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Does anyone have any insight into why the US voting system seems to actively work against wider engagement in voting? .


Because the GOP thinks they will never win an election if everyone votes.

Trump things so: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... oronavirus

Much of the GOPs internal thinking leaked a while back: https://theintercept.com/2019/09/27/ger ... ler-memos/

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Olddog
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 6:39 am

AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud. It is bad enough when voting in person. To vote you should be required to show PROOF of citizenship such as a US Passport.


Yes ask for an US passport, I bet that 80% of the US citizens does not have one :)
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NWAESC
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 11:03 am

AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud.


Great. Got a data-driven source link to back that up?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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scbriml
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 12:08 pm

NWAESC wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud.


Great. Got a data-driven source link to back that up?


:rotfl:

It's a sound-bite, not a fact.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 12:34 pm

Oh, I know. It's amazing just how many people believe it. It's a testament to the power of targeted messaging.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 12:48 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Oh, I know. It's amazing just how many people believe it. It's a testament to the power of targeted messaging.


Its amazing especially considering that one has to wilfully ignore all data on voting fraud to entertain the notion.

Find a flat earther that doesn't also believe in wide spread voter fraud....

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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seahawk
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 12:57 pm

AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud. It is bad enough when voting in person. To vote you should be required to show PROOF of citizenship such as a US Passport.


Imagine the US had a working resident registration system. All this and so much more would be no longer a topic. But I know communism..
 
bmartino99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 1:08 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base


that would be essentially zero people

the only thing Trump voters love is white supremacy



You aren't so different than them. You are painting with a very wide brush. If Trump only had the white supremacy vote in 2016 he would have lost in a massive landslide.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 2:12 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud.


you mean the thing that happens astonishingly rarely?


If it’s done right, astonishingly rare to find. See Kennedy election in Cook County. “White Supremavy” argument is a simpleton’s explanation of Trump’s, indeed the global populist, appeal. It’s a lot more complicated than that.
 
GDB
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 2:41 pm

bmartino99 wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
I would expect the Constitution loving portion of his base


that would be essentially zero people

the only thing Trump voters love is white supremacy



You aren't so different than them. You are painting with a very wide brush. If Trump only had the white supremacy vote in 2016 he would have lost in a massive landslide.


I think most people understand that he got just enough independents (due to a complacent candidate opposing him), plus the anti democratic (not the party though same effect) Electoral College 18th Century hangover.
Don't fancy his chances with independents this time, as the Covid crisis and his utter uselessness is lethally apparent.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 2:53 pm

GDB wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:

that would be essentially zero people

the only thing Trump voters love is white supremacy



You aren't so different than them. You are painting with a very wide brush. If Trump only had the white supremacy vote in 2016 he would have lost in a massive landslide.


I think most people understand that he got just enough independents (due to a complacent candidate opposing him), plus the anti democratic (not the party though same effect) Electoral College 18th Century hangover.
Don't fancy his chances with independents this time, as the Covid crisis and his utter uselessness is lethally apparent.


You call our electoral college system undemocratic, that's fine its an opinion. However others can say the same thing of your system in the UK, by which people don't select a president but rather vote for parliament and who ever it is that the party who won most seats chose as leder becomes your prime minister.

I am not complaining about your system, has worked wonderfully also, had great leaders such as Churchill and Thatcher but come on? no system is perfect, but lets base the systems on the actual results. You may not like our electoral college, but Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, Clinton, Obama all of them won with that system.

Its fine to complain about the EC, when it is a Republican president, but come November if Biden wins the EC, this discussion will die and fade.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 2:57 pm

GDB wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:

that would be essentially zero people

the only thing Trump voters love is white supremacy



You aren't so different than them. You are painting with a very wide brush. If Trump only had the white supremacy vote in 2016 he would have lost in a massive landslide.


I think most people understand that he got just enough independents (due to a complacent candidate opposing him), plus the anti democratic (not the party though same effect) Electoral College 18th Century hangover.
Don't fancy his chances with independents this time, as the Covid crisis and his utter uselessness is lethally apparent.


Plus the whole "that is just him campaigning, once in office ....." nonsense won't fly again, the "I am a successful businessman" punchline will work less. And for his ability to deliver on his promises... yeah, only pretty hardcore fans say that he delivered.

He is in panic mode about losing, someone probably told him that he might very well be buried under criminal indictments once out of office, with a decent chance of ending up with a long sentence, and much of it will only meet its statute of limitation in 2022. Hard to see any resemblance of an unpartial DoJ would just pretend those 10 felonies from the Mueller report do not exist.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
rfields5421
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 3:11 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
Does anyone have any insight into why the US voting system seems to actively work against wider engagement in voting?


Setting the election locations and eligibility requirements has been a method for the party in power to control access to the polls. This is not a Republican or Democrat, not even a US practice. Going back to the earliest elections held, access to the polls has been 'managed' to benefit the group in power.''

Now - as far as the DATE or DAY of elections - there was no common election day within the US until the invention of the telegraph. Choosing electors for President was required within a certain time - a 34 day window - and up to each state. After the telegraph was demonstrated to be able to spread news of election results quickly, the consensus was that a single national election day was a good idea.

Sunday was completely unacceptable as elections day tended to be a rather loud public event with a lot of drinking in many places as groups were rounded up from immigrants and others - marched in front of a judge who swore everyone to a citizenship oath, and they then marched to the polls and voted.

At the time any local judge or JP could make someone a US citizen, and there were not requirements for residency, testing or such. The concept of 'legal' immigration did not exist.

That was also the age of 'Vote Early, and Often' And occurred in large cities and rural communities.

Tuesday was chosen as a compromise. At the time - 1845 - Saturday was just another workday, and often the longest, busiest, hardest work day of the week. For many people it was their market day, and the idea of disrupting such a vital day to vote was not acceptable.

Tuesday was an acceptable compromise.

Today in the US, Sunday is still unacceptable as a voting day. One argument is that having polling places open forces poll workers to skip their Sabbath religious services. Another argument is that many churches had developed the practice of the entire congregation moving from the morning worship service to the polls as a group and having to wait hours because of the long lines it created.


Olddog wrote:
Yes ask for an US passport, I bet that 80% of the US citizens does not have one :)


That was my contention on this forum a few years ago - and I was shocked to learn that nearly half of all US citizens now have a passport.. According to the US Department of State - there were 146,775,089 valid US Passports in 2019 https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us/reports-and-statistics.html

Of course that still leaves almost 150 million US citizens without passports. With approx 20 million passports being issued, it would take almost 8 years to issue enough passports for everyone to have one, assuming no one needs to renew a passport in that time. More likely 10-15 years to issue the New passports required.

Note also that the number of passports does not mean the number of voting age citizens with them. Many children well under voting age have passports.

My daughter received her first US Citizen passport when she was three weeks old, Having been born while I was overseas. We needed a passport for her to be able to travel to the US with her mother and me just 36 days after her birth (we lost the race to get back into the US before the birth. Danged kid showed up the day before the scheduled flights and cost me a lot of money for rescheduling, and an extra 'infant' fare.)
Not all who wander are lost.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 3:23 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
That was my contention on this forum a few years ago - and I was shocked to learn that nearly half of all US citizens now have a passport.. According to the US Department of State - there were 146,775,089 valid US Passports in 2019 https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us/reports-and-statistics.html

Of course that still leaves almost 150 million US citizens without passports. With approx 20 million passports being issued, it would take almost 8 years to issue enough passports for everyone to have one, assuming no one needs to renew a passport in that time. More likely 10-15 years to issue the New passports required.


More like never. :D
14.6+ million passports are replacements with 10 years validty plus whatever shorter validity passports there are for kids. That leaves 5 million for new passport holders, but they'd need replacements too, so after those 8-ish years you need 20 million replacements per year.

But I guess the trend would hold and 5 million new passports are issued to citizens for the first time, you are looking at 30 years.

If the share of issued first time passports stay the same, ~1/3 above replacement rate, than you'd be looking at somewhat close to 20 years.

My OCD...see numbers, must run them :)

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Newark727
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 3:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Plus the whole "that is just him campaigning, once in office ....." nonsense won't fly again, the "I am a successful businessman" punchline will work less. And for his ability to deliver on his promises... yeah, only pretty hardcore fans say that he delivered.


Sadly, you're only scratching the surface of the ability of Trump supporters to make rationalizations...
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 3:46 pm

Newark727 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Plus the whole "that is just him campaigning, once in office ....." nonsense won't fly again, the "I am a successful businessman" punchline will work less. And for his ability to deliver on his promises... yeah, only pretty hardcore fans say that he delivered.


Sadly, you're only scratching the surface of the ability of Trump supporters to make rationalizations...


Remeber when over 10% of Republican voters wanted him removed from office? There is of course a core of hard believers, but those don't make up all that voted for him in 2016. He doesn't slip in polls among Republican voters because Democrats dislike him some more.

My oldest US friends mom, die hard Trump supporter refusing to look anything up that may interfere with what she wants to believe and going full on "this is a coup!" Over impeachment, hasn't put any MAGA stuff on facebook for a while now. Of course she is one of those out of a job now, and she is surprisingly not blaming the MI governor for it. She also didn't go to the protests, although Lansings capital is a half hour drive.

Many will have limits to their dedication.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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seb146
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 7:05 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
GDB wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:


You aren't so different than them. You are painting with a very wide brush. If Trump only had the white supremacy vote in 2016 he would have lost in a massive landslide.


I think most people understand that he got just enough independents (due to a complacent candidate opposing him), plus the anti democratic (not the party though same effect) Electoral College 18th Century hangover.
Don't fancy his chances with independents this time, as the Covid crisis and his utter uselessness is lethally apparent.


You call our electoral college system undemocratic, that's fine its an opinion. However others can say the same thing of your system in the UK, by which people don't select a president but rather vote for parliament and who ever it is that the party who won most seats chose as leder becomes your prime minister.

I am not complaining about your system, has worked wonderfully also, had great leaders such as Churchill and Thatcher but come on? no system is perfect, but lets base the systems on the actual results. You may not like our electoral college, but Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, Clinton, Obama all of them won with that system.

Its fine to complain about the EC, when it is a Republican president, but come November if Biden wins the EC, this discussion will die and fade.


People have been wanting to get rid of the Electoral College for a very long time. Not just this one time with this one losing candidate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral ... _amendment

I suspect the calls for the Electoral College to be either weakened or taken away completely will continue until it is finally done away with.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GDB
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 7:18 pm

seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
GDB wrote:

I think most people understand that he got just enough independents (due to a complacent candidate opposing him), plus the anti democratic (not the party though same effect) Electoral College 18th Century hangover.
Don't fancy his chances with independents this time, as the Covid crisis and his utter uselessness is lethally apparent.


You call our electoral college system undemocratic, that's fine its an opinion. However others can say the same thing of your system in the UK, by which people don't select a president but rather vote for parliament and who ever it is that the party who won most seats chose as leder becomes your prime minister.

I am not complaining about your system, has worked wonderfully also, had great leaders such as Churchill and Thatcher but come on? no system is perfect, but lets base the systems on the actual results. You may not like our electoral college, but Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, Clinton, Obama all of them won with that system.

Its fine to complain about the EC, when it is a Republican president, but come November if Biden wins the EC, this discussion will die and fade.


People have been wanting to get rid of the Electoral College for a very long time. Not just this one time with this one losing candidate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral ... _amendment

I suspect the calls for the Electoral College to be either weakened or taken away completely will continue until it is finally done away with.


Bit like segregation and voting rights then.
 
rfields5421
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 8:50 pm

seb146 wrote:
People have been wanting to get rid of the Electoral College for a very long time. Not just this one time with this one losing candidate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral ... _amendment

I suspect the calls for the Electoral College to be either weakened or taken away completely will continue until it is finally done away with.


Unfortunately, the math simply does not work to get rid of the Electoral College.

Only an amendment to the Constitution can get rid of the Electoral College.

It takes only 13 states to decide that removal of the Electoral College lessens their voice in the choosing of a President to block an amendment from passing.

Seven states have only one representative - Alaska, Delaware, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont, Wyoming. The District of Columbia has a number of Electoral votes as the least populous state. Those states and DC control 24 electoral votes - about 4% of the 538 votes in the EC.(I think the percentage is right)

Five states have only two representatives - and thus only four electoral votes each

Everyone remembers the close election in 2000 when only five electoral votes decided who would be President. Each of those small population states know that in a close election every Electoral Vote counts. And they know getting rid of the EC will dilute their 'voting power' if a move to a national majority vote counts.

Second item which provides even more complication to getting rid of the EC is local elections.

Do we leave the count of votes to the current state mechanisms and continue where each state submits an 'official' vote count to Washington?

I assure that system will lead to many more contentious recounts than occurred in Florida in 2000.

Or does the federal presidential election over-ride the local state rules on when the polls are open, early voting, absentee voting, etc?

The 'states' will not go for that, no matter what system is proposed.

Another part of the Electoral College which will have to be revised/ replaced concerns the provisions for non-conclusive vote. Do we require a person running for President to obtain the MAJORITY of the votes cast for President, or just the single LARGEST vote total. Do we require a runoff no candidate wins a majority? Do we have a NATIONAL recount if the margin of victory is a certain number or percentage of votes?

The current system of resolving non-conclusive Electoral College results is also in the Constitution and will have to be part of an amendment.

If the decision upon who becomes the next president falls to the House of Representatives - each STATE had ONE vote.

The 567,025 people in Wyoming have an equal voice in deciding who becomes President as the 29,427,295 people of Texas or the 39,397,489 people of California.

I agree that the Electoral College is an antiquated system. It gives too much power to states with small populations in deciding the Presidential election.

I would ask which nations elect their leader by a strictly popular vote?

Most do not. They have a parliamentary system where the leader is elected based on a population weighted system of electing members of parliament, who choose their party head to be the leader.

Frankly, I think that is also an antiquated system, but it largely works. As does the Electoral College.

But saying "Let's get rid of the Electoral College and go to a popular vote." is not simple. And is not going to happen as long as the United States had its current constitution.
.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should November election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 9:47 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
The problem with voting by mail is overwhelming voter fraud.


you mean the thing that happens astonishingly rarely?


If it’s done right, astonishingly rare to find. See Kennedy election in Cook County. “White Supremavy” argument is a simpleton’s explanation of Trump’s, indeed the global populist, appeal. It’s a lot more complicated than that.


You’re right - ‘generalized male insecurity-fed grievances’ probably covers the broad strokes better. A survey of recent polling shows 45 hitting around 37% support with women, and it seems from interviews women are far more likely to express contrition and discontent if they voted for him in 2016 than men. There must be something other than character and policy positions that explains the 15-20 point gender gap in support.

https://bangordailynews.com/2020/04/18/ ... llup-poll/
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Cadet985
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 9:53 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/lost- ... index.html

Here’s a PERFECT example of why I will never support mail in balloting on a large scale.

Marc
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 10:10 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/lost-postcard-returned-trnd/index.html

Here’s a PERFECT example of why I will never support mail in balloting on a large scale.

Marc


To be fair, stuff like that happens in every office, everywhere. The ‘hey, remember THIS’ moment a lot of people can attest to before we started keeping everything as PDF.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Cadet985
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Thu May 07, 2020 11:36 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/lost-postcard-returned-trnd/index.html

Here’s a PERFECT example of why I will never support mail in balloting on a large scale.

Marc


To be fair, stuff like that happens in every office, everywhere. The ‘hey, remember THIS’ moment a lot of people can attest to before we started keeping everything as PDF.


I mean on one hand this gives me hope that someday, the card my grandfather mailed me for my 18th birthday will show up (I’m 30-35 now).

Marc
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Fri May 08, 2020 5:12 am

Cadet985 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/lost-postcard-returned-trnd/index.html

Here’s a PERFECT example of why I will never support mail in balloting on a large scale.

Marc


To be fair, stuff like that happens in every office, everywhere. The ‘hey, remember THIS’ moment a lot of people can attest to before we started keeping everything as PDF.


I mean on one hand this gives me hope that someday, the card my grandfather mailed me for my 18th birthday will show up (I’m 30-35 now).

Marc


...or you could just do what California, Colorado, Florida and others are doing, and send mail in ballots with tracking.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2244
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Fri May 08, 2020 5:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

To be fair, stuff like that happens in every office, everywhere. The ‘hey, remember THIS’ moment a lot of people can attest to before we started keeping everything as PDF.


I mean on one hand this gives me hope that someday, the card my grandfather mailed me for my 18th birthday will show up (I’m 30-35 now).

Marc


...or you could just do what California, Colorado, Florida and others are doing, and send mail in ballots with tracking.

best regards
Thomas


Just knowing it was delivered isn’t enough. I’d want a way to verify it was counted, just as you have at a polling station.

At the end of the night, the poll workers add up the totals from the machines, and the total number of voters from the book that every voter signs. If there’s a discrepancy, the votes are counted by hand. I’ve never had to worry about my vote being counted before, but as dependable as the USPS is, I’d be VERY worried.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Fri May 08, 2020 5:50 am

Cadet985 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:

I mean on one hand this gives me hope that someday, the card my grandfather mailed me for my 18th birthday will show up (I’m 30-35 now).

Marc


...or you could just do what California, Colorado, Florida and others are doing, and send mail in ballots with tracking.

best regards
Thomas


Just knowing it was delivered isn’t enough. I’d want a way to verify it was counted, just as you have at a polling station..


i would be very surprised if counting mail in ballots isn´t just as open to every voter and transparent as all other counting, and just as with in person voting the isn´t a way to tell that *your* vote is actually counted, since you can´t recognize your ballot during counting....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Fri May 08, 2020 6:17 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

...or you could just do what California, Colorado, Florida and others are doing, and send mail in ballots with tracking.

best regards
Thomas


Just knowing it was delivered isn’t enough. I’d want a way to verify it was counted, just as you have at a polling station..


i would be very surprised if counting mail in ballots isn´t just as open to every voter and transparent as all other counting, and just as with in person voting the isn´t a way to tell that *your* vote is actually counted, since you can´t recognize your ballot during counting....

best regards
Thomas


No, but for example, when I go to my polling site, I can ask if they’ve received my dad’s absentee ballot. They’ll have a record — if things work properly — and be able to tell me if they do or do not.

Marc
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12904
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Fri May 08, 2020 6:58 am

Cadet985 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:

Just knowing it was delivered isn’t enough. I’d want a way to verify it was counted, just as you have at a polling station..


i would be very surprised if counting mail in ballots isn´t just as open to every voter and transparent as all other counting, and just as with in person voting the isn´t a way to tell that *your* vote is actually counted, since you can´t recognize your ballot during counting....

best regards
Thomas


No, but for example, when I go to my polling site, I can ask if they’ve received my dad’s absentee ballot. They’ll have a record — if things work properly — and be able to tell me if they do or do not.

Marc


...and with tracking you can do the same without even asking anyone.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
EstherLouise
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:16 pm

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Fri May 08, 2020 2:05 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
See the Carter/Baker Commission on Elections which stated “vote by mail” was an opening to fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... ion_Reform



I think the Republicans fear vote by mail because they cannot control the vote by closing voting places, moving them and all out suppression of voters rights by design such as voter Id requirements.


I’m a Republican (big shock) and I do not trust the USPS to handle something on that scale. I’ve had letters and packages lost, get destroyed (“accidentally”), etc. How can you guarantee me that millions of ballots will get to the right place on time? What happens if someone mails their ballot on time and it gets to the destination AFTER all the votes are counted? If you put tracking on it, that kind of nullifies the idea of anonymous voting. When I voted by absentee ballot in college, one of my complaints was that requiring a postage stamp on the ballot amounted to a poll tax. If there needs to be a large scale mail in vote, I say do it postage free.

Also...not that it matters, but this Republican is against voter ID.

Marc


Even though a mail-in ballot arrives late to the clerk's office, it's still counted as long as it's postmarked on or before Election Day. The ballot return envelopes that my absentee ballots come with contain return postage already applied.
712 722 732 734 737 738 741 742 744 752 762 772 A310 DC91 DC93 DC94 DC1030 DC1040 F100 MD82 MD83
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

Re: Should November election be canceled?

Fri May 08, 2020 4:25 pm

EstherLouise wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:


I think the Republicans fear vote by mail because they cannot control the vote by closing voting places, moving them and all out suppression of voters rights by design such as voter Id requirements.


I’m a Republican (big shock) and I do not trust the USPS to handle something on that scale. I’ve had letters and packages lost, get destroyed (“accidentally”), etc. How can you guarantee me that millions of ballots will get to the right place on time? What happens if someone mails their ballot on time and it gets to the destination AFTER all the votes are counted? If you put tracking on it, that kind of nullifies the idea of anonymous voting. When I voted by absentee ballot in college, one of my complaints was that requiring a postage stamp on the ballot amounted to a poll tax. If there needs to be a large scale mail in vote, I say do it postage free.

Also...not that it matters, but this Republican is against voter ID.

Marc


Even though a mail-in ballot arrives late to the clerk's office, it's still counted as long as it's postmarked on or before Election Day. The ballot return envelopes that my absentee ballots come with contain return postage already applied.


If your return envelopes come with return postage paid, you’re not from Pennsylvania. Or at least Philadelphia County. If you mail it in without a stamp, the USPS will not deliver it.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22333
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Should November US election be canceled?

Fri May 08, 2020 6:05 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:

I mean on one hand this gives me hope that someday, the card my grandfather mailed me for my 18th birthday will show up (I’m 30-35 now).

Marc


...or you could just do what California, Colorado, Florida and others are doing, and send mail in ballots with tracking.

best regards
Thomas


Just knowing it was delivered isn’t enough. I’d want a way to verify it was counted, just as you have at a polling station.

At the end of the night, the poll workers add up the totals from the machines, and the total number of voters from the book that every voter signs. If there’s a discrepancy, the votes are counted by hand. I’ve never had to worry about my vote being counted before, but as dependable as the USPS is, I’d be VERY worried.


Again, with vote-by-mail, USPS is not the only way to get a ballot to the clerk. It is the easiest and preferred in many rural locations. But, in suburban and urban areas, we have drop off boxes, not only at the court house, but at various government buildings. I may have said this before but our court house is over 20 miles away. We go near there if we happen to be going to Home Depot, which is another 60 miles. However, we have several different drop sites around the county. So, for people like you who have trust issues with USPS, they can drop their ballot directly at either the county clerk or at an official county drop site.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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