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continental004
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No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Wed May 06, 2020 3:08 am

In response to a question about the country's tourism sector, New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said: "We will not have open borders for the rest of the world for a long time to come."

"Tourism is one of New Zealand's biggest industries, directly employing almost 10% of the country's workforce, and contributing almost 6% of GDP. Most visitors are from Australia, followed by China, the US, and the UK."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-525 ... ting-story
Last edited by qf789 on Wed May 06, 2020 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Misleading title
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 3:11 am

Methinks you should focus on what’s happening here more. What kind of house of cards economy were we already running where a -4.8% quarterly GDP drop has resulted in losing 20% of the adult labor force? (32 million into 157 million)
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 3:47 am

Mass panic and paranoia is clouding judgement and leading to extreme decisions.

There may be a lot more progressive approaches to tackling the issue. Mandatory testing on arrival, or even departure, twice if necessary, may go a long way in catching most imported cases. Travelers could bear the cost of testing. Maybe a short quarantine to start with, if only to wait for test results. This can be done in dedicated hotels, also at the traveler's cost. Thereafter, visitors can be required to wear a mask at all times when outside, under threat of fines/jail.

People will have to start understanding that we cannot completely eradicate this virus yet, at least not without extreme measures which have extremely nasty consequences.
Covid is far from a death sentence, and we have to find ways to live with it until we can cure/vaccinate it. This means keeping transmission rate low, protecting the more vulnerable all the while allowing people to make a living as much as possible around the restrictions.

It seems NZ prefers to cower in a hole until someone solves the crisis for them at the cost of letting a significant portion of its population endure forced unemployment, hardship and misery.
I have a feeling they won't be the only ones...
:sigh:
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DocLightning
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 3:49 am

The economy would be a lot worse with the entire population in a panic while so many are dying and afraid to go outside, which is exactly what would happen without her actions. To put this in perspective, in two months, this virus has killed more people in the US than H1N1 ever did.

NZ can open up its local economy and especially its substantial agricultural export business. As Australia gets its epidemic under control (as it appears to be doing) then NZ can open up to Australia and other countries with good pandemic control, which includes a good chunk of East Asia, where most of their tourism money originates. But keep in mind that a lot of people are not going to be in a particular mood for international travel irrespective of border restrictions. There is too much uncertainty right now.
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Mortyman
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 5:39 am

People are not prepared to travel in large numbers I think, before a vaccine comes. Also, some of the Things that has been presented as solutions for the industry is very damaging I think:

Less seats / blocking off seats in Aircraft. This is already done, but Airlines are not making Money. I don't think they are prepared to Accept this in the long run. How are they gonna survive ? Travelers will not accept a huge increase in price ?

Restaurants are planning on plexi glass between restaurant tables ... I don't think that People will Accept these Barriers for long.

The restrictions put in Place after 9/11 was acceptable, but the ones that are presented now makes vacationing a hell


People on holiday, go on holiday for a good time
 
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scbriml
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 7:38 am

continental004 wrote:
In response to a question about the country's tourism sector, New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said: "We will not have open borders for the rest of the world for a long time to come."

"Tourism is one of New Zealand's biggest industries, directly employing almost 10% of the country's workforce, and contributing almost 6% of GDP. Most visitors are from Australia, followed by China, the US, and the UK."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-525 ... ting-story


She's still very popular in NZ. Maybe you missed that NZ and Australia have already agreed to implement a 'travel bubble' between themselves?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... dern-agree
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GDB
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 7:45 am

Most informed opinion think she has done a damn fine job, the stats on infection and death don't lie.
Sure they had some advantages, in population density and geography but the biggest one is intelligent, effective leadership.
 
Toenga
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 7:50 am

The savings to our health system by building a fence at the top of the cliff, rather then a fleet of ambulances at the bottom has been immense. A lot of what we lose in overseas tourist arrivals will be offset by the gain to our economy of retaining the local spending of our own residents foregoing their own overseas trips. At the moment we would be between seasons anyway. There is a good chance we will reopen our border to Australian skiers, the bulk of our winter overseas tourists anyway, this winter. Australia is by far the biggest source of our tourists anyway, followed by China. Australia has the reverse pattern.
The costs of just one infection getting away would offset the tourist spend by thousands, and could be absolutely devastating to our Maori and Pasifica people, who are already disadvantaged economically and health wise.
Sure the economy has taken a hit, but most of the economy barring overses tourism and events should be up and running in about a fortnight.
Much of the slowdown effects of covid will be imported anyway. Even if we had open borders, how many tourists, and cruise ships would we be seeing? Covid is both sucking masses out of discretionary spending worldwide and making world travellers exceedingly cautious.
And there is a lot more to the New Zealand economy then overseas tourism and sheep. And even then, NZ sheep meat is in such high demand worldwide our local prices are expected to rise. China cranking up, is increasing demand for our timber.
Fortunately for the mature me, our government believes that the economy is a servant of it's people, and not our people are there to serve the economy. And we are blessed with an actual leader, not an incompetent blond showman, like the two countries worst affected by this terrible virus.
 
Elite
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 7:58 am

You want your country to lose some income or to lose lives?
 
Toenga
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 8:15 am

Elite wrote:
You want your country to lose some income or to lose lives?

The foregone income that could be ascribed to closed borders, will be relatively minor.
There are social costs though, as many New Zealand families are spread around the globe, so closed borders prevents family reunions,
But uncontrolled spread could result in as much as 0.5% deaths, including perhaps my own.
In the meantime now a vaccine could be developed, or at least more effective treatments found, that increase survivability. We now have options that most other countries no longer have and we are not going to squander them.
It is also giving us time to reflect on a post covid enviroment and economy, one that hopefully does not degrade our planet so much.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 9:01 am

New Zealand has a unique situation in this pandemic as an island nation. They were able to contain infections very well very early, a culture and people who are reasonable and good governance including PM Ardern. Yes, their economy may be badly hurt for now from the pandemic, especially from sharp declines in foreign tourism, but they might be able to sustain rebound easier than many countries. Trade will continue, as others posters note, including sheep, wool, meat and timber, able to grow most food needed in country. They have a chance to have some tourism with Australia who also had similar ability to limit the infections early on from the pandemic and able to continue trade for goods they produce.
 
Toenga
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 9:30 am

ltbewr wrote:
New Zealand has a unique situation in this pandemic as an island nation. They were able to contain infections very well very early, a culture and people who are reasonable and good governance including PM Ardern. Yes, their economy may be badly hurt for now from the pandemic, especially from sharp declines in foreign tourism, but they might be able to sustain rebound easier than many countries. Trade will continue, as others posters note, including sheep, wool, meat and timber, able to grow most food needed in country. They have a chance to have some tourism with Australia who also had similar ability to limit the infections early on from the pandemic and able to continue trade for goods they produce.

Australia has followed an almost identical path, on almost identical timings, and achieved almost identical results.
This is what makes resuming travel between the countries without a quarantine requirement likely in the not too distant future.
There was a huge amount of comparing notes between the technical advisors of both countries to get to this state.
Scott Morrison is of different political persuasion, and in spite of a career in marketing, his communications were not nearly as effective as Jacinda's, and therefore did not attract so much international media attention, but we are grateful their results give us more options.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 10:20 am

Mods - Suggest changing the thread title.
Most NZers (around 80%) are happy with the way she has handled this disaster inflicted on the world by China.
In the next couple of weeks it is likely that NZ will completely eradicate the disease and relatively normal life will be able to resume.
Compare that to many other countries that left their economies fully running and are now facing huge consequences for it that potentially (and likely) will far exceed the economic disruption that NZ has had.
NZ is reliant on tourism more than most countries, but that said for the most part it wasn’t “good” economic growth (low value tourism has many negatives - including higher rents, more congestion, more pollution, higher costs etc).
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
jamincan
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 11:28 am

The title to this thread is highly inflammatory and heavily editorialized. Mods should really change it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 12:43 pm

jamincan wrote:
The title to this thread is highly inflammatory and heavily editorialized. Mods should really change it.


Par for the course with this user - he specializes in flamebait.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tommy1808
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 1:04 pm

continental004 wrote:
In response to a question about the country's tourism sector, New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said: "We will not have open borders for the rest of the world for a long time to come."

"Tourism is one of New Zealand's biggest industries, directly employing almost 10% of the country's workforce, and contributing almost 6% of GDP. Most visitors are from Australia, followed by China, the US, and the UK."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-525 ... ting-story


And who exactly would those tourists be for the time being? Even with NZ completely open, many tourists would have to quarantine after coming home. As much as I would like to go to NZ, I am not going to invest most of my annual leave on 2-3 weeks abroad.

People will only travel if they can just come home after, and countries will decide bilaterally when travel between those two countries will re-open without pesky quarantine on either end. That simply may take a bit.

Why should she lie about that?

Best regard
Thomas
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 1:06 pm

NZ is betting a vaccine will happen before their economy collapses.

What would happen with this virus, those countries taking the big hit from COVID: Sweden, Belgium, UK,Italy, Spain, France, the US etc, these are the nations that will return to normal faster (because immunity) than those who are hiding under a cave trying not to catch it, they are only postponing the inevitable.

If the vaccine comes out soon, then we can congratulate NZ, Taiwan, S Korea, etc and bash Sweden, but we don't know yet.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 1:08 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Mass panic and paranoia is clouding judgement and leading to extreme decisions.

It seems NZ prefers to cower in a hole until someone solves the crisis for them at the cost of letting a significant portion of its population endure forced unemployment, hardship and misery.
I have a feeling they won't be the only ones...
:sigh:


Argh NZ is gripped in the throws of Jacinda mania, she can do no wrong, the great unwashed are lapping up everything she does. I wouldn't bet against Labour winning this years general election in a landslide without needing a partner.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 1:19 pm

Elite wrote:
You want your country to lose some income or to lose lives?


The youngest person who has died in NZ is 62, almost everyone who died had some existing condition.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 1:24 pm

DocLightning wrote:
The economy would be a lot worse with the entire population in a panic while so many are dying and afraid to go outside, which is exactly what would happen without her actions. To put this in perspective, in two months, this virus has killed more people in the US than H1N1 ever did.

NZ can open up its local economy and especially its substantial agricultural export business. As Australia gets its epidemic under control (as it appears to be doing) then NZ can open up to Australia and other countries with good pandemic control, which includes a good chunk of East Asia, where most of their tourism money originates. But keep in mind that a lot of people are not going to be in a particular mood for international travel irrespective of border restrictions. There is too much uncertainty right now.


Australia is so far more successful at controlling Covid 19 than NZ. If we had been as good as Australia we would have had 148 less cases and 3 less deaths! (based on latest stats which has their case rate at 270/million vs our 309/million and death rate at 3.81/million vs our 4.36/million).
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 1:41 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
NZ is betting a vaccine will happen before their economy collapses.

What would happen with this virus, those countries taking the big hit from COVID: Sweden, Belgium, UK,Italy, Spain, France, the US etc, these are the nations that will return to normal faster (because immunity) than those who are hiding under a cave trying not to catch it, they are only postponing the inevitable.

If the vaccine comes out soon, then we can congratulate NZ, Taiwan, S Korea, etc and bash Sweden, but we don't know yet.

There are essentially two actions countries can take:
-Do nothing and let the virus run its course, regardless of death toll.
-Lockdown to slow the spread and buy time for treatments and maybe a cure to come out.

If a country has a good infrastructure in place (including strong safety nets like healthcare, enough hospital space to meet demand, and paid time off while sick), it can afford to do the former; otherwise, it has to resort to the latter.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 1:54 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
NZ is betting a vaccine will happen before their economy collapses.

What would happen with this virus, those countries taking the big hit from COVID: Sweden, Belgium, UK,Italy, Spain, France, the US etc, these are the nations that will return to normal faster (because immunity) than those who are hiding under a cave trying not to catch it, they are only postponing the inevitable.

If the vaccine comes out soon, then we can congratulate NZ, Taiwan, S Korea, etc and bash Sweden, but we don't know yet.

There are essentially two actions countries can take:
-Do nothing and let the virus run its course, regardless of death toll.
-Lockdown to slow the spread and buy time for treatments and maybe a cure to come out.

If a country has a good infrastructure in place (including strong safety nets like healthcare, enough hospital space to meet demand, and paid time off while sick), it can afford to do the former; otherwise, it has to resort to the latter.


You can hold safety nets for a long time, but not for a infinite amount of time. Money is finite, there is not an infinite amount of resources you can take. If you think governments can print their way out for years without working or moving their economy, I can show you many examples of nations with inflation at million's of percents rate.

Right now, a vaccine or cure as you mention, is on the works, but no definite timeline of the vaccine being effective and then being released. So NZ is betting large, that they can hide till a vaccine comes out.

Is it a good strategy? time will tell. It seems NZ leaders believe their populace is too stupid to actually be responsible and be cautious. But that's what government's in the world been telling us we are since this started.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 2:02 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
You can hold safety nets for a long time, but not for a infinite amount of time. Money is finite, there is not an infinite amount of resources you can take. If you think governments can print their way out for years without working or moving their economy, I can show you many examples of nations with inflation at million's of percents rate.

You're projecting a dire fiscal situation to every country. The US can't do it. A country like the UK or Germany may not be able to do it either. The Nordic countries? They probably can (with a lower debt burden than the US, UK, or Germany). At this point, I'm certain that Swedes, Nordes, and Danes are glad to not be using the euro because they can adjust their own monetary policy for this period.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Is it a good strategy? time will tell. It seems NZ leaders believe their populace is too stupid to actually be responsible and be cautious. But that's what government's in the world been telling us we are since this started.

Well, we don't know if it's a good strategy which is why it's a bit encouraging to see countries tackle this in different ways. But having a government tell people what to do is not a sign of them believing people are stupid. Then again, look at states where people are protesting because they want a haircut or go fishing, even when new cases have sorta stabilized but not gone down yet. I want a haircut. My beard is all over the place. But if getting a haircut means I DGAF about my health or that of those who will work to give me a haircut, then maybe I SHOULD be thought of as stupid.

As Forrest Gump said: "Stupid is as stupid does".
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 2:26 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You can hold safety nets for a long time, but not for a infinite amount of time. Money is finite, there is not an infinite amount of resources you can take. If you think governments can print their way out for years without working or moving their economy, I can show you many examples of nations with inflation at million's of percents rate.

You're projecting a dire fiscal situation to every country. The US can't do it. A country like the UK or Germany may not be able to do it either. The Nordic countries? They probably can (with a lower debt burden than the US, UK, or Germany). At this point, I'm certain that Swedes, Nordes, and Danes are glad to not be using the euro because they can adjust their own monetary policy for this period.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Is it a good strategy? time will tell. It seems NZ leaders believe their populace is too stupid to actually be responsible and be cautious. But that's what government's in the world been telling us we are since this started.

Well, we don't know if it's a good strategy which is why it's a bit encouraging to see countries tackle this in different ways. But having a government tell people what to do is not a sign of them believing people are stupid. Then again, look at states where people are protesting because they want a haircut or go fishing, even when new cases have sorta stabilized but not gone down yet. I want a haircut. My beard is all over the place. But if getting a haircut means I DGAF about my health or that of those who will work to give me a haircut, then maybe I SHOULD be thought of as stupid.

As Forrest Gump said: "Stupid is as stupid does".


Needing a haircut is nothing dire - which is why it’s a stupid protest. Those folks can do what frugal people have done for ages and do the job in the mirror. Or as my wife says: “oh NOW the trash of the land take interest in personal grooming” lol
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 2:34 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You can hold safety nets for a long time, but not for a infinite amount of time. Money is finite, there is not an infinite amount of resources you can take. If you think governments can print their way out for years without working or moving their economy, I can show you many examples of nations with inflation at million's of percents rate.

You're projecting a dire fiscal situation to every country. The US can't do it. A country like the UK or Germany may not be able to do it either. The Nordic countries? They probably can (with a lower debt burden than the US, UK, or Germany). At this point, I'm certain that Swedes, Nordes, and Danes are glad to not be using the euro because they can adjust their own monetary policy for this period.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Is it a good strategy? time will tell. It seems NZ leaders believe their populace is too stupid to actually be responsible and be cautious. But that's what government's in the world been telling us we are since this started.

Well, we don't know if it's a good strategy which is why it's a bit encouraging to see countries tackle this in different ways. But having a government tell people what to do is not a sign of them believing people are stupid. Then again, look at states where people are protesting because they want a haircut or go fishing, even when new cases have sorta stabilized but not gone down yet. I want a haircut. My beard is all over the place. But if getting a haircut means I DGAF about my health or that of those who will work to give me a haircut, then maybe I SHOULD be thought of as stupid.

As Forrest Gump said: "Stupid is as stupid does".


We don't really know where this is all going to end, and the exit strategy from New Zealand on COVID19 if the vaccine never comes.

There are only wars to actually metric the economic devastation of stopping a country, but even during wars never has the economic activity stopped. Much less on a globalist world we live where everything is so connected during these times
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 2:39 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You can hold safety nets for a long time, but not for a infinite amount of time. Money is finite, there is not an infinite amount of resources you can take. If you think governments can print their way out for years without working or moving their economy, I can show you many examples of nations with inflation at million's of percents rate.

You're projecting a dire fiscal situation to every country. The US can't do it. A country like the UK or Germany may not be able to do it either. The Nordic countries? They probably can (with a lower debt burden than the US, UK, or Germany). At this point, I'm certain that Swedes, Nordes, and Danes are glad to not be using the euro because they can adjust their own monetary policy for this period.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Is it a good strategy? time will tell. It seems NZ leaders believe their populace is too stupid to actually be responsible and be cautious. But that's what government's in the world been telling us we are since this started.

Well, we don't know if it's a good strategy which is why it's a bit encouraging to see countries tackle this in different ways. But having a government tell people what to do is not a sign of them believing people are stupid. Then again, look at states where people are protesting because they want a haircut or go fishing, even when new cases have sorta stabilized but not gone down yet. I want a haircut. My beard is all over the place. But if getting a haircut means I DGAF about my health or that of those who will work to give me a haircut, then maybe I SHOULD be thought of as stupid.

As Forrest Gump said: "Stupid is as stupid does".


We don't really know where this is all going to end, and the exit strategy from New Zealand on COVID19 if the vaccine never comes.

There are only wars to actually metric the economic devastation of stopping a country, but even during wars never has the economic activity stopped. Much less on a globalist world we live where everything is so connected during these times


The ‘globalist’ world has been happening in earnest since the end of WWII. Ya know, the Marshall plan, petrodollars, Coca Cola, P&G, Hollywood and all that jazz.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
continental004
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 5:31 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
jamincan wrote:
The title to this thread is highly inflammatory and heavily editorialized. Mods should really change it.


Par for the course with this user - he specializes in flamebait.


Am I wrong though? If 10% of the workforce is made redundant it could have dire consequences.
Last edited by continental004 on Wed May 06, 2020 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
continental004
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 5:33 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Elite wrote:
You want your country to lose some income or to lose lives?


The youngest person who has died in NZ is 62, almost everyone who died had some existing condition.


And that is why we need to reopen tf up now. Let the old and the vulnerable stay at home and let the rest of us live our lives again.
 
continental004
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Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 5:34 pm

Elite wrote:
You want your country to lose some income or to lose lives?


If we have to sacrifice a few to prevent economic depression, so be it.
 
airhansa
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Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Wed May 06, 2020 5:40 pm

It's more likely that Australia and New Zealand hate immigrants enough that closing the borders was a gleeful option for them. The only place in East Asia to have a lockdown before the pandemic started in Italy, was Central China. Not even the likes of South Korea, Japan or Hong Kong instituted a lockdown.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Wed May 06, 2020 5:55 pm

airhansa wrote:
It's more likely that Australia and New Zealand hate immigrants enough that closing the borders was a gleeful option for them. The only place in East Asia to have a lockdown before the pandemic started in Italy, was Central China. Not even the likes of South Korea, Japan or Hong Kong instituted a lockdown.


Unchecked immigration has caused a lot of social problems in NZ, both main policitical parties are guilty, Helen Clark’s govt opened up mass migration to NZ, the Keys National govt that followed didn’t make any changsa, and so far despite having Winston as deputy PM Jacinda’s govt hasn’t made any real effort to close the doors.

Auckland has suffered terribly with skyrocketing house prices and not enough infrastructure investment to keep pace with the numbers coming in. Incomes haven’t kept pace either, NZ was a cheap country to live in, it’s not anymore.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Wed May 06, 2020 7:35 pm

I am guessing international tourism is the last thing on many leaders mind. They have to worry to about their own citizens health and safety.

For a year or two, domestic tourism is the best option, I am sure there are places never visited within their own countries, cover those over next couple of years.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Toenga
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Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Wed May 06, 2020 8:33 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
airhansa wrote:
It's more likely that Australia and New Zealand hate immigrants enough that closing the borders was a gleeful option for them. The only place in East Asia to have a lockdown before the pandemic started in Italy, was Central China. Not even the likes of South Korea, Japan or Hong Kong instituted a lockdown.


Unchecked immigration has caused a lot of social problems in NZ, both main policitical parties are guilty, Helen Clark’s govt opened up mass migration to NZ, the Keys National govt that followed didn’t make any changsa, and so far despite having Winston as deputy PM Jacinda’s govt hasn’t made any real effort to close the doors.

Auckland has suffered terribly with skyrocketing house prices and not enough infrastructure investment to keep pace with the numbers coming in. Incomes haven’t kept pace either, NZ was a cheap country to live in, it’s not anymore.


New Zealand (and Australia) are immigrant societies, Australia does have an indigenous population that is now heavily marginalised, and the population descended from our first immigrants who arrived in the 14th Century have suffered heavily from marginalisation, but largely as result of impressive Maori leadership, and some robust activism NZ is making substantial progress in addressing this, and the marginalisation of our Pacifica peoples.
In the 19th C until WW1 there was massive, in terms of its population, immigration from largely the UK, but also Dalmatia and other European groups.
After WW2 high levels of UK immigration resumed plus groups from war ravaged continental Europe. As labour shortages continued Pacific Islanders were also encouraged here in large numbers.
When we adopted neo liberalism, just after the Muldoon years, and well before Helen Clark, immigration was opened up worldwide as a cheaper alternative then training.
This resulted in the very visible wave of Asian immigration, that many people, particularly those of white European descent, and including many that have arrived here as immigrants themselves, or their parents did, are not comfortable with.
There does need to be ongoing debate, as to what do we want to achieve from our continuing immigration, the neo libs want lowered training costs, and downward pressure on wages, as well as a larger market so profits can rise without actually increasing market share. But does this actually raise the living standards for all that are already here?
The current shock to employment is certainly down to Covid, but even without the current government restrictions, retail spending, hospitality and air travel spend would be severly curtailed. These areas are significant in providing employment, but are more minor players in generating our international income. Look very sad if your job was selling cruise ship trips, but no NZ government action will get them sailing like they did only three months ago.
For the poster complaining he won't travel here under these circumstances, he needs to answer, where else can be travel? and under what risks and restrictions.
 
GDB
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Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Wed May 06, 2020 9:51 pm

Always a bitter irony to hear them bang on about immigrants in that part of the world.
With NZ, the PM is seen worldwide as having done a pretty good job, which was really rubbed some on here up the wrong way.
 
Kent350787
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Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Wed May 06, 2020 10:25 pm

airhansa wrote:
It's more likely that Australia and New Zealand hate immigrants enough that closing the borders was a gleeful option for them. The only place in East Asia to have a lockdown before the pandemic started in Italy, was Central China. Not even the likes of South Korea, Japan or Hong Kong instituted a lockdown.


It's difficult to see how wrong this is. Both Australia and NZ have been heavily reliant on immigration as economic drivers for almost two decades. Apart form tourism, our universities are heavily (some would say overly) reliant on overseas students for revenue.

But both NZ and Aust shut borders because we could, and it seems to have been pretty successful in containing the risk posed from US tourists (the leading infection vector for Australia in particular) and returning residents. I think many people will be happy when tran-Tasman movement opens up once more.
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
Toenga
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Wed May 06, 2020 10:31 pm

What I meant to say is that it is valid here, and in every country to have a discussion about what are the objectives, skills or perspectives sought, and desired rates of immigration. I find arguments on immigration around language, religion and skin colour offensive.But immigrants must except our laws and cultural norms of sexual, racial, and religious equality, even when they are in conflict with their upbringing elsewhere in the world.
I for one love the diversity of Auckland, and find the relative monoculturalism of some other parts of New Zealand stifling.
 
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Zkpilot
Posts: 4514
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Wed May 06, 2020 11:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
The economy would be a lot worse with the entire population in a panic while so many are dying and afraid to go outside, which is exactly what would happen without her actions. To put this in perspective, in two months, this virus has killed more people in the US than H1N1 ever did.

NZ can open up its local economy and especially its substantial agricultural export business. As Australia gets its epidemic under control (as it appears to be doing) then NZ can open up to Australia and other countries with good pandemic control, which includes a good chunk of East Asia, where most of their tourism money originates. But keep in mind that a lot of people are not going to be in a particular mood for international travel irrespective of border restrictions. There is too much uncertainty right now.


Australia is so far more successful at controlling Covid 19 than NZ. If we had been as good as Australia we would have had 148 less cases and 3 less deaths! (based on latest stats which has their case rate at 270/million vs our 309/million and death rate at 3.81/million vs our 4.36/million).

Most NZ cases have been from people arriving from overseas with it. The cases for community transmission in NZ are very low and lower than Australia’s.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
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moo
Posts: 4951
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Thu May 07, 2020 3:41 am

Kiwirob wrote:
airhansa wrote:
It's more likely that Australia and New Zealand hate immigrants enough that closing the borders was a gleeful option for them. The only place in East Asia to have a lockdown before the pandemic started in Italy, was Central China. Not even the likes of South Korea, Japan or Hong Kong instituted a lockdown.


Unchecked immigration has caused a lot of social problems in NZ, both main policitical parties are guilty, Helen Clark’s govt opened up mass migration to NZ, the Keys National govt that followed didn’t make any changsa, and so far despite having Winston as deputy PM Jacinda’s govt hasn’t made any real effort to close the doors.


The current government have moved to curb immigration and foreign investment which is harmful to NZ, while retaining immigration which is helpful - shortly after we arrived and purchased our current house (on essential skills work visas) the government banned sale of existing property to anyone without residency, which stabilised house prices (at least where we are).

Just before the lockdown commenced, we had a visa approved for a highly skilled worker from Sri Lanka to join our company - it took about 12 weeks to get issued. Thats compared to the 3 days that it took for myself and my wife to get ours.

Most of the people in the company are highly skilled immigrants (either on work visas or residency - we have 3 Kiwis in the entire office of 80 people, the rest is a very broad spectrum of Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas). All of them earn over $100k NZD. I get paid twice here what I would in the UK.

Auckland has suffered terribly with skyrocketing house prices and not enough infrastructure investment to keep pace with the numbers coming in. Incomes haven’t kept pace either, NZ was a cheap country to live in, it’s not anymore.


This isn't the fault of immigration, this is the fault of the government not pushing businesses to move elsewhere - the lack of decent high speed transport is appalling.

When we got here in 2017, the SH1 upgrade was just beginning at Huntley and Longswamp, and in several places in Auckland. Today, Huntley is completed, Longswamp is completed, Auckland is completed and the Hamilton bypass is around 2 years behind schedule. Huntley and Longswamp together have taken a good 20 minutes off of my weekly commute - Hamilton will likely take another 15 off.

But the current government have also cancelled all SH1 improvements south of Hamilton - so its no wonder businesses aren't investing outside of the major cities. Theres also a reason Hamilton is called "Auckland South"...

Oh, they have promised a commuter rail service from Hamilton to Auckland by some point this year - except its only going to run twice a day, its going to run in the morning at a time when you have to drive to the station anyway, there isn't enough parking at the station to handle a single full train of commuters, let alone two, the journey time exceeds that of just driving, and you still have to change to a local service outside of Auckland. Oh, and the cost is just about on par with driving to Auckland and parking up for a day using Parkmate. Miss the first service home and you will have to hope theres room on the second service else you are staying in Auckland.

Don't blame immigration for Aucklands problems, that is squarely at the feet of successive governments - better investment in a rail service would mean more people would move south, but the government is instead putting a mediocre service in place and when it fails will again point everywhere else than itself.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12904
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Jacinda Ardern, economy destroyer

Thu May 07, 2020 7:07 am

Kiwirob wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
The economy would be a lot worse with the entire population in a panic while so many are dying and afraid to go outside, which is exactly what would happen without her actions. To put this in perspective, in two months, this virus has killed more people in the US than H1N1 ever did.

NZ can open up its local economy and especially its substantial agricultural export business. As Australia gets its epidemic under control (as it appears to be doing) then NZ can open up to Australia and other countries with good pandemic control, which includes a good chunk of East Asia, where most of their tourism money originates. But keep in mind that a lot of people are not going to be in a particular mood for international travel irrespective of border restrictions. There is too much uncertainty right now.


Australia is so far more successful at controlling Covid 19 than NZ. If we had been as good as Australia we would have had 148 less cases and 3 less deaths! (based on latest stats which has their case rate at 270/million vs our 309/million and death rate at 3.81/million vs our 4.36/million).


NZ did 20% more testing per Capita, 30k/million vs. 25k/million, which may just about turn those stats around.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4514
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Thu May 07, 2020 1:09 pm

moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
airhansa wrote:
It's more likely that Australia and New Zealand hate immigrants enough that closing the borders was a gleeful option for them. The only place in East Asia to have a lockdown before the pandemic started in Italy, was Central China. Not even the likes of South Korea, Japan or Hong Kong instituted a lockdown.


Unchecked immigration has caused a lot of social problems in NZ, both main policitical parties are guilty, Helen Clark’s govt opened up mass migration to NZ, the Keys National govt that followed didn’t make any changsa, and so far despite having Winston as deputy PM Jacinda’s govt hasn’t made any real effort to close the doors.


The current government have moved to curb immigration and foreign investment which is harmful to NZ, while retaining immigration which is helpful - shortly after we arrived and purchased our current house (on essential skills work visas) the government banned sale of existing property to anyone without residency, which stabilised house prices (at least where we are).

Just before the lockdown commenced, we had a visa approved for a highly skilled worker from Sri Lanka to join our company - it took about 12 weeks to get issued. Thats compared to the 3 days that it took for myself and my wife to get ours.

Most of the people in the company are highly skilled immigrants (either on work visas or residency - we have 3 Kiwis in the entire office of 80 people, the rest is a very broad spectrum of Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas). All of them earn over $100k NZD. I get paid twice here what I would in the UK.

Auckland has suffered terribly with skyrocketing house prices and not enough infrastructure investment to keep pace with the numbers coming in. Incomes haven’t kept pace either, NZ was a cheap country to live in, it’s not anymore.


This isn't the fault of immigration, this is the fault of the government not pushing businesses to move elsewhere - the lack of decent high speed transport is appalling.

When we got here in 2017, the SH1 upgrade was just beginning at Huntley and Longswamp, and in several places in Auckland. Today, Huntley is completed, Longswamp is completed, Auckland is completed and the Hamilton bypass is around 2 years behind schedule. Huntley and Longswamp together have taken a good 20 minutes off of my weekly commute - Hamilton will likely take another 15 off.

But the current government have also cancelled all SH1 improvements south of Hamilton - so its no wonder businesses aren't investing outside of the major cities. Theres also a reason Hamilton is called "Auckland South"...

Oh, they have promised a commuter rail service from Hamilton to Auckland by some point this year - except its only going to run twice a day, its going to run in the morning at a time when you have to drive to the station anyway, there isn't enough parking at the station to handle a single full train of commuters, let alone two, the journey time exceeds that of just driving, and you still have to change to a local service outside of Auckland. Oh, and the cost is just about on par with driving to Auckland and parking up for a day using Parkmate. Miss the first service home and you will have to hope theres room on the second service else you are staying in Auckland.

Don't blame immigration for Aucklands problems, that is squarely at the feet of successive governments - better investment in a rail service would mean more people would move south, but the government is instead putting a mediocre service in place and when it fails will again point everywhere else than itself.

Don’t get me wrong here, those upgrades you mentioned most certainly are needed (rail etc).
On the other hand you say don’t blame immigration. Some immigration is good as it gets people with the right skills in and can help with things line demographics (slowing down the aging population demographic particularly). That said mass immigration like NZ has had for 20 years (but more specifically during the GFC under National was not only excessive but hugely damaging. Infrastructure costs went up as did the demand for them (to service the new arrivals). Congestion and pollution also went up. House prices skyrocketed (causing plummeting home ownership rates, homelessness, and causing a huge jump in household debt - mortgages). NZ had the highest rate of immigration per capita in the OECD during those years. If it had been mostly builders, engineers, scientists, doctors, tradespeople, IT then it would’ve been ok. Instead we got mostly “students” (using it as a residency scam), taxi drivers, fast food workers, courier drivers, and relatively wealthy “investors” who just say money in an account, bought a house and a BMW and then did zero to contribute to the economy while waiting to get a passport before flying back to China etc leaving the kids to get free education and the grandparents to use free public transport etc.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Thu May 07, 2020 1:22 pm

moo wrote:
Most of the people in the company are highly skilled immigrants (either on work visas or residency - we have 3 Kiwis in the entire office of 80 people, the rest is a very broad spectrum of Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas). All of them earn over $100k NZD. I get paid twice here what I would in the UK.


3 kiwis out of 80, all on high salaries, I find that quite disturbing. If it was the other way around that would be much better for NZ.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8489
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Thu May 07, 2020 2:10 pm

No better timing to remain isolated from the world than your local flu season. Lucky timing there.

The question for the northern hemisphere is whether it’s such a great idea to remain in lockdown for 6 months prior to the start of the next flu season.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Thu May 07, 2020 4:13 pm

PPVRA wrote:
No better timing to remain isolated from the world than your local flu season. Lucky timing there.

The question for the northern hemisphere is whether it’s such a great idea to remain in lockdown for 6 months prior to the start of the next flu season.


Maybe the coroanvirus is a secret plot by Jacinda Ardern and here far-right collation government to destroy the earth, while New Zealand gets away free.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4951
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Fri May 08, 2020 1:24 am

Kiwirob wrote:
moo wrote:
Most of the people in the company are highly skilled immigrants (either on work visas or residency - we have 3 Kiwis in the entire office of 80 people, the rest is a very broad spectrum of Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas). All of them earn over $100k NZD. I get paid twice here what I would in the UK.


3 kiwis out of 80, all on high salaries, I find that quite disturbing. If it was the other way around that would be much better for NZ.


Theres a reason all of those 77 people immigrated to NZ on essential skills visas - again, blame the government for not fixing that with internal policies around education.

Having been here for 3 years now, my impression of kiwis is that the vast majority favour practical jobs - building, construction, farming etc. Only the very latest generation has any interest in less manual careers such as doctor, software developer - even the schools still heavily push farming as a way of life here, with "Ag Days" and "look after a farm animal for a month" things going on every year at most schools in this area. Its trivial to get something manual done - want a house built? Builders are a dime a dozen - they might all be busy right now, but in 6 weeks you can have your new house. Want a room converted to an en suite? Job done, plenty of people to do that. Handy man needed? Theres a dozen of them advertising on the local facebook group. Want your lawn mowed? Again, a dozen husband and wife teams on the local facebook group.

But want to hire a software developer? Can't find a good one locally. I hired probably 7 or 8 of the devs I work with, we advertised a lot for the positions on a lot of different sites. How many Kiwis did we have apply? None. Thats why only 3 Kiwis are on the team.

Until your government sorts that out, don't blame immigration for filling the slots that companies want filled.
 
Toenga
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Fri May 08, 2020 4:14 am

moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
moo wrote:
Most of the people in the company are highly skilled immigrants (either on work visas or residency - we have 3 Kiwis in the entire office of 80 people, the rest is a very broad spectrum of Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas). All of them earn over $100k NZD. I get paid twice here what I would in the UK.


3 kiwis out of 80, all on high salaries, I find that quite disturbing. If it was the other way around that would be much better for NZ.


Theres a reason all of those 77 people immigrated to NZ on essential skills visas - again, blame the government for not fixing that with internal policies around education.

Having been here for 3 years now, my impression of kiwis is that the vast majority favour practical jobs - building, construction, farming etc. Only the very latest generation has any interest in less manual careers such as doctor, software developer - even the schools still heavily push farming as a way of life here, with "Ag Days" and "look after a farm animal for a month" things going on every year at most schools in this area. Its trivial to get something manual done - want a house built? Builders are a dime a dozen - they might all be busy right now, but in 6 weeks you can have your new house. Want a room converted to an en suite? Job done, plenty of people to do that. Handy man needed? Theres a dozen of them advertising on the local facebook group. Want your lawn mowed? Again, a dozen husband and wife teams on the local facebook group.

But want to hire a software developer? Can't find a good one locally. I hired probably 7 or 8 of the devs I work with, we advertised a lot for the positions on a lot of different sites. How many Kiwis did we have apply? None. Thats why only 3 Kiwis are on the team.

Until your government sorts that out, don't blame immigration for filling the slots that companies want filled.


Moo, You have added some very interesting perspectives to this thread.
There has here been a disconnect between skills required in New Zealand, and our education and training provisions.
Like the UK, our business managers and recruiters went through a stage of wanting just younger replicas of themselves, those with accounting and law degrees. These became the sought after degrees and it meant top management became far too one dimensional.
Our biggest and oldest building and construction company ended up with such a skill deficit, at board and top management level , that in a high rise construction boom it had to withdraw completely from that market, where once it led. It simply no longer had the skills to price correctly and build profitably. Therefore it consistently delivered late and lost vast amounts of money. But they did have great tax minimilisation, efficient financing and legal skills though.
Let us hope that Covid makes our government realise that getting quickly back to where we were, is a dumb target. Time now, to reset some targets , although for plane spotters, and those with family on both sides of the world, there will need to be some adjustments to better care for our planet.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Fri May 08, 2020 7:59 am

moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
moo wrote:
Most of the people in the company are highly skilled immigrants (either on work visas or residency - we have 3 Kiwis in the entire office of 80 people, the rest is a very broad spectrum of Asia, Africa, Europe and the Americas). All of them earn over $100k NZD. I get paid twice here what I would in the UK.


3 kiwis out of 80, all on high salaries, I find that quite disturbing. If it was the other way around that would be much better for NZ.


Theres a reason all of those 77 people immigrated to NZ on essential skills visas - again, blame the government for not fixing that with internal policies around education.

Having been here for 3 years now, my impression of kiwis is that the vast majority favour practical jobs - building, construction, farming etc. Only the very latest generation has any interest in less manual careers such as doctor, software developer - even the schools still heavily push farming as a way of life here, with "Ag Days" and "look after a farm animal for a month" things going on every year at most schools in this area. Its trivial to get something manual done - want a house built? Builders are a dime a dozen - they might all be busy right now, but in 6 weeks you can have your new house. Want a room converted to an en suite? Job done, plenty of people to do that. Handy man needed? Theres a dozen of them advertising on the local facebook group. Want your lawn mowed? Again, a dozen husband and wife teams on the local facebook group.

But want to hire a software developer? Can't find a good one locally. I hired probably 7 or 8 of the devs I work with, we advertised a lot for the positions on a lot of different sites. How many Kiwis did we have apply? None. Thats why only 3 Kiwis are on the team.

Until your government sorts that out, don't blame immigration for filling the slots that companies want filled.


I'm 47, I don't know anyone in building or construction, although my now dead granddad was a commercial property developer and my dads extended family are filthy rich farmers. I know plenty of doctors, accountants, sales people, electrical engineers and couple of people in the army and police. I finished school 30 years ago but cannot remember ever being pushed into farming, or even having a discussion about farming in school. But you are right I don't know any software engineers.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Fri May 08, 2020 8:30 am

Toenga wrote:
moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

3 kiwis out of 80, all on high salaries, I find that quite disturbing. If it was the other way around that would be much better for NZ.


Theres a reason all of those 77 people immigrated to NZ on essential skills visas - again, blame the government for not fixing that with internal policies around education.

Having been here for 3 years now, my impression of kiwis is that the vast majority favour practical jobs - building, construction, farming etc. Only the very latest generation has any interest in less manual careers such as doctor, software developer - even the schools still heavily push farming as a way of life here, with "Ag Days" and "look after a farm animal for a month" things going on every year at most schools in this area. Its trivial to get something manual done - want a house built? Builders are a dime a dozen - they might all be busy right now, but in 6 weeks you can have your new house. Want a room converted to an en suite? Job done, plenty of people to do that. Handy man needed? Theres a dozen of them advertising on the local facebook group. Want your lawn mowed? Again, a dozen husband and wife teams on the local facebook group.

But want to hire a software developer? Can't find a good one locally. I hired probably 7 or 8 of the devs I work with, we advertised a lot for the positions on a lot of different sites. How many Kiwis did we have apply? None. Thats why only 3 Kiwis are on the team.

Until your government sorts that out, don't blame immigration for filling the slots that companies want filled.


Moo, You have added some very interesting perspectives to this thread.
There has here been a disconnect between skills required in New Zealand, and our education and training provisions.
Like the UK, our business managers and recruiters went through a stage of wanting just younger replicas of themselves, those with accounting and law degrees. These became the sought after degrees and it meant top management became far too one dimensional.
Our biggest and oldest building and construction company ended up with such a skill deficit, at board and top management level , that in a high rise construction boom it had to withdraw completely from that market, where once it led. It simply no longer had the skills to price correctly and build profitably. Therefore it consistently delivered late and lost vast amounts of money. But they did have great tax minimilisation, efficient financing and legal skills though.
Let us hope that Covid makes our government realise that getting quickly back to where we were, is a dumb target. Time now, to reset some targets , although for plane spotters, and those with family on both sides of the world, there will need to be some adjustments to better care for our planet.


My former sister-in-law was marketing director for one of the Fletcher companies a few years back. She could tell you some interesting stories about them. Moo will be happy about this when her and my brother divorced she married a dairy farmer and is now living in Matamata.
 
Toenga
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Fri May 08, 2020 8:59 am

Kiwirob wrote:
moo wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:



I'm 47, I don't know anyone in building or construction, although my now dead granddad was a commercial property developer and my dads extended family are filthy rich farmers. I know plenty of doctors, accountants, sales people, electrical engineers and couple of people in the army and police. I finished school 30 years ago but cannot remember ever being pushed into farming, or even having a discussion about farming in school. But you are right I don't know any software engineers.


My impression from working as an engineer in the retail and consumer side of the oil industry here in NZ is that kiwis were very innovative in identifying opportunity for automation, PEC in Marton designed world first electronic fuel pumps way back in 1978, that could talk to the till, and then the card reader, and then the tank gauge, and then continuously reconcile sales, deliveries and wet stock, all on a common communications protocol that allowed mixing and matching equipment from different manufacturers.
So we are great at identifying where programs were required, but it does not surprise me, that we have to import software engineers to write required programs, test, and validate security.
 
santi319
Posts: 1004
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Fri May 08, 2020 9:56 am

I think people are missing the point, they are protecting themselves against their winter and covid behavior in it. Like it or not this IS A FACTOR in spreading the disease.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4951
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: No open borders for New Zealand anytime soon

Fri May 08, 2020 10:40 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Moo will be happy about this when her and my brother divorced she married a dairy farmer and is now living in Matamata.


What a ridiculously pointless thing to say.

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