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MaverickM11
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Sun May 10, 2020 4:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well the person who leaked the video came forth: A supposed friend of the McMichaels, who thought releasing it would settle the issue and their innocence.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawyer-says- ... 2-suspects
I swear people seem to only be able to view things as if "they're good guys, why would you run or fight back?". Everyone has been making excuses for the McMichaels and why the killing was justifiable. Obviously this lawyer friend only saw it that way. Why aren't these same people looking at how it is NOT justifiable? And now many of those looking for this to be justifiable are complaining about those that are seeing the "not side" are speaking up. What the "not" people are saying us not the problem.... I will repeat what I have said up thread: The problem.. the only problem is that someone was killed and no action was taken. That is where everything starts and must end. You address that and you address the follow on problems and resond to people fairly.

Kiwirob wrote:

They chased him down in a truck, how could he flee from a vehicle? He probably shouldn’t have had a tousle with the gun owning rednecks, that’s what sealed his fate. If I was him I would have stopped and let them call the cops and wait for the police to sort it out.

They are going to KILL you! That is why they are coming after you. And you would stand their and wait for that? OK...

Now many defenders here will complain loudly at that, "They weren't going to kill him, they were just going to detain him. Why do you inflame things like that?! YOU are the problem!" Except... none of us were inside Ahmaud's head, and I can only go with what I think, and I think that if I have two armed black people chasing after me in a truck, yelling, I am going to probably die, and I don't want to do ANYTHING they say, I want to get the hell away.

And you would think differently? You would stand and wait for two (three?) armed people driving crazy in a truck to come up to you? To kill you? (Or what do you think they want to do?)

Tugg


You don’t know what they were going to do! Maybe they would have killed him maybe they wouldn’t, but IMO he sealed his fate by fighting back.

Are people not allowed to fight back attackers now?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Sun May 10, 2020 4:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well the person who leaked the video came forth: A supposed friend of the McMichaels, who thought releasing it would settle the issue and their innocence.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawyer-says- ... 2-suspects
I swear people seem to only be able to view things as if "they're good guys, why would you run or fight back?". Everyone has been making excuses for the McMichaels and why the killing was justifiable. Obviously this lawyer friend only saw it that way. Why aren't these same people looking at how it is NOT justifiable? And now many of those looking for this to be justifiable are complaining about those that are seeing the "not side" are speaking up. What the "not" people are saying us not the problem.... I will repeat what I have said up thread: The problem.. the only problem is that someone was killed and no action was taken. That is where everything starts and must end. You address that and you address the follow on problems and resond to people fairly.

Kiwirob wrote:

They chased him down in a truck, how could he flee from a vehicle? He probably shouldn’t have had a tousle with the gun owning rednecks, that’s what sealed his fate. If I was him I would have stopped and let them call the cops and wait for the police to sort it out.

They are going to KILL you! That is why they are coming after you. And you would stand their and wait for that? OK...

Now many defenders here will complain loudly at that, "They weren't going to kill him, they were just going to detain him. Why do you inflame things like that?! YOU are the problem!" Except... none of us were inside Ahmaud's head, and I can only go with what I think, and I think that if I have two armed black people chasing after me in a truck, yelling, I am going to probably die, and I don't want to do ANYTHING they say, I want to get the hell away.

And you would think differently? You would stand and wait for two (three?) armed people driving crazy in a truck to come up to you? To kill you? (Or what do you think they want to do?)

Tugg


You don’t know what they were going to do! Maybe they would have killed him maybe they wouldn’t, but IMO he sealed his fate by fighting back.

That is my point exactly! You do understand that, yes?

And you are stating that you would not fight back against someone threatening you? Under any circumstance?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1744
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Sun May 10, 2020 4:56 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well the person who leaked the video came forth: A supposed friend of the McMichaels, who thought releasing it would settle the issue and their innocence.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawyer-says- ... 2-suspects
I swear people seem to only be able to view things as if "they're good guys, why would you run or fight back?". Everyone has been making excuses for the McMichaels and why the killing was justifiable. Obviously this lawyer friend only saw it that way. Why aren't these same people looking at how it is NOT justifiable? And now many of those looking for this to be justifiable are complaining about those that are seeing the "not side" are speaking up. What the "not" people are saying us not the problem.... I will repeat what I have said up thread: The problem.. the only problem is that someone was killed and no action was taken. That is where everything starts and must end. You address that and you address the follow on problems and resond to people fairly.


They are going to KILL you! That is why they are coming after you. And you would stand their and wait for that? OK...

Now many defenders here will complain loudly at that, "They weren't going to kill him, they were just going to detain him. Why do you inflame things like that?! YOU are the problem!" Except... none of us were inside Ahmaud's head, and I can only go with what I think, and I think that if I have two armed black people chasing after me in a truck, yelling, I am going to probably die, and I don't want to do ANYTHING they say, I want to get the hell away.

And you would think differently? You would stand and wait for two (three?) armed people driving crazy in a truck to come up to you? To kill you? (Or what do you think they want to do?)

Tugg


You don’t know what they were going to do! Maybe they would have killed him maybe they wouldn’t, but IMO he sealed his fate by fighting back.

That is my point exactly! You do understand that, yes?

And you are stating that you would not fight back against someone threatening you? Under any circumstance?

Tugg


Won't speak for anyone else but I was held up at gunpoint by 4 blacks driving past my house and asked for directions. When I approached the car they pulled a gun on me and wanted my wallet..Quite honestly I was frozen and fixated looking at the gun they had to yell at me to snap me out of my trance. I gave them my cash and not the wallet at no time did I attempt to fight or resist. I was actually expecting to be shot anyway even after giving them the money but they drove off then the adrenaline kicked in afterwards. But everyone is different if you are going to fight someone who is armed you better hope you win but chances are you wont.
 
winginit
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 3:12 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
What’s really sad is GA has made tattoo parlors essential while the grand jury process has been sitting on its ass for three months on this - no thanks to the apparently conflicted DA. These two need to be on trial for murder pronto.


They have just been arrested for murder. It won't go to trial, they will likely cut a deal.


Georgia AG has just requested DOJ investigation, so now most definitely zero chance of it not going to trial.
 
alfa164
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 3:17 am

winginit wrote:
Georgia AG has just requested DOJ investigation, so now most definitely zero chance of it not going to trial.



Remember who is running the DOJ these days.... there is probably an equal chance it will simply disappear, like Flynn's guilty pleas.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 6:44 am

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well the person who leaked the video came forth: A supposed friend of the McMichaels, who thought releasing it would settle the issue and their innocence.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawyer-says- ... 2-suspects
I swear people seem to only be able to view things as if "they're good guys, why would you run or fight back?". Everyone has been making excuses for the McMichaels and why the killing was justifiable. Obviously this lawyer friend only saw it that way. Why aren't these same people looking at how it is NOT justifiable? And now many of those looking for this to be justifiable are complaining about those that are seeing the "not side" are speaking up. What the "not" people are saying us not the problem.... I will repeat what I have said up thread: The problem.. the only problem is that someone was killed and no action was taken. That is where everything starts and must end. You address that and you address the follow on problems and resond to people fairly.


They are going to KILL you! That is why they are coming after you. And you would stand their and wait for that? OK...

Now many defenders here will complain loudly at that, "They weren't going to kill him, they were just going to detain him. Why do you inflame things like that?! YOU are the problem!" Except... none of us were inside Ahmaud's head, and I can only go with what I think, and I think that if I have two armed black people chasing after me in a truck, yelling, I am going to probably die, and I don't want to do ANYTHING they say, I want to get the hell away.

And you would think differently? You would stand and wait for two (three?) armed people driving crazy in a truck to come up to you? To kill you? (Or what do you think they want to do?)

Tugg


You don’t know what they were going to do! Maybe they would have killed him maybe they wouldn’t, but IMO he sealed his fate by fighting back.

That is my point exactly! You do understand that, yes?

And you are stating that you would not fight back against someone threatening you? Under any circumstance?

Tugg


Not against someone with a gun pointed at me. I don’t believe these two idiots set out to kill him, but when he decided to fight it cost him his life.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 8:47 am

It's a modern day lynching.

Also, the Glynn County, GA DA needs to be locked and charged with obstructing justice. She sat on her hands because the father-murderer used to work for her office as an investigator. Lock her ass up and charge her!
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 1:48 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
It's a modern day lynching.

Also, the Glynn County, GA DA needs to be locked and charged with obstructing justice. She sat on her hands because the father-murderer used to work for her office as an investigator. Lock her ass up and charge her!


It will never happen, there is no requirement for prosecution to be open about when and if they proceed with charges. Trust me...it’s a royal pain. I spend months building a case and once it is submitted for prosecution...poooff...no idea what happens next. Sometimes they make a deal without my knowledge, sometimes they don’t even charge it. I did all the work on a case and usually it’s for nothing.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 4:44 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Tugger wrote:
That is my point exactly! You do understand that, yes?

And you are stating that you would not fight back against someone threatening you? Under any circumstance?

Tugg


Won't speak for anyone else but I was held up at gunpoint by 4 blacks driving past my house and asked for directions. When I approached the car they pulled a gun on me and wanted my wallet..Quite honestly I was frozen and fixated looking at the gun they had to yell at me to snap me out of my trance. I gave them my cash and not the wallet at no time did I attempt to fight or resist. I was actually expecting to be shot anyway even after giving them the money but they drove off then the adrenaline kicked in afterwards. But everyone is different if you are going to fight someone who is armed you better hope you win but chances are you wont.

.
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
That is my point exactly! You do understand that, yes?

And you are stating that you would not fight back against someone threatening you? Under any circumstance?

Tugg


Not against someone with a gun pointed at me. I don’t believe these two idiots set out to kill him, but when he decided to fight it cost him his life.


Thank you both for making my point. We each must make our own decisions on what to do in such a situation but that in no way validates or makes it acceptable to murder the person that does decide to not stand there. And then going after and engaging more forcefully is similarly unacceptable. People that do such are criminals, just like people that demand someones wallet. Muggers. And yes they do kill people and then they face a whole different level or punishment.

These two murders deserve to face severe consequences.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seb146
Posts: 22205
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 5:11 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Who has said that? I have asked you time and time again to provide proof of these outlandish statements you make. Nobody here has said what you claim I mean you just make this up? Come on it's just a rant and it's basically saying you feel all white people are racist. Can we stop with this? If you are going to make a charge that anyone here thinks its fine to kill someone simply for there skin color can you at least make sure it happened and provide the statement?


Here as well as all over the interwebs people are blaming Arbery. "He should not have been stealing things" (he had nothing on him to indicate he stole anything) "he should not have been in that neighborhood" (he lived in the area) "there were burglaries in the area so people were suspicious" (casual racism) and on and on the victim blaming goes.

Oh, and let's not forget that it took months for the two men to be arrested and charged.


So maybe you should have said that the DA tried to covered it up and maybe not said that everyone thinks it's fine that a black got killed because he is black? It would improve the debate.


No. Once this was found out, the same chorus of people came out, as they do, and blame the victim. Just like they blamed Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin and Sandra Bland and Botham Jean and so many other unarmed people.

BTW, the DA is friends with one of the shooters and she blocked the immediate arrest of McMichael Sr.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/watch-gb ... djyWYjB2L/
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
NIKV69
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 6:04 pm

winginit wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
What’s really sad is GA has made tattoo parlors essential while the grand jury process has been sitting on its ass for three months on this - no thanks to the apparently conflicted DA. These two need to be on trial for murder pronto.


They have just been arrested for murder. It won't go to trial, they will likely cut a deal.


Georgia AG has just requested DOJ investigation, so now most definitely zero chance of it not going to trial.


Doesn't guarantee it will. Murder is a tough charge if they don't get a change of venue it's a risk where manslaughter is a slam dunk.

seb146 wrote:


No. Once this was found out, the same chorus of people came out, as they do, and blame the victim. Just like they blamed Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin and Sandra Bland and Botham Jean and so many other unarmed people.

BTW, the DA is friends with one of the shooters and she blocked the immediate arrest of McMichael Sr.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/watch-gb ... djyWYjB2L/


We have asked you to provide the statements of people here blaming the victim which of course you ignore. We know the DA tried to cover this up but for to you use it as cover to go on a rant about racism is petty and I wish you would cease this practice.

BTW Trayvon began assaulting Zimmerman and was bashing his head into the ground during the encounter. It is in no way relative to this shooting.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 7:32 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:


No. Once this was found out, the same chorus of people came out, as they do, and blame the victim. Just like they blamed Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin and Sandra Bland and Botham Jean and so many other unarmed people.

BTW, the DA is friends with one of the shooters and she blocked the immediate arrest of McMichael Sr.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/watch-gb ... djyWYjB2L/


We have asked you to provide the statements of people here blaming the victim which of course you ignore. We know the DA tried to cover this up but for to you use it as cover to go on a rant about racism is petty and I wish you would cease this practice.

BTW Trayvon began assaulting Zimmerman and was bashing his head into the ground during the encounter. It is in no way relative to this shooting.


Posts 7, 11, 23.... the same posters posting the same "blame the victim" posts.

And, no, Trayvon did not start off by assaulting Zimmerman. Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. Trayvon did not have a gun. He was walking. Blame the victim.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Jetty
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 7:52 pm

wingman wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Partly agree with you, however, do you know how much black on white crime/killings/shootings happens daily in this country or black on black, or white on white? do we get outraged for every each of them?

Irrelevant in this case. That's whataboutism. A Black person invading the home of another person (regardless of race) is just as bad as a White person invading the home of another person (regardless of race). A Black person shooting someone else should merit as much outrage as a White person shooting someone else. The outrage here isn't these color on color crimes; it's how they're processed and how they'll set a precedent for future cases. It's fact that Blacks are convicted and given harsher sentences for the same crimes that Whites commit. It's also fact that even in the face of overwhelming evidence that suggests a White person's intentions were criminal, they'll be let off easier than a Black person where the evidence is inconclusive.

In this case, the outrage stems from two White men making wrong assumptions and setting up to kill the guy (he jogged past their place and they found time to arm themselves and follow him, just because "he looked suspicious") and a justice system that didn't catch this until video evidence emerged, and that based on previous cases, will let them go easily.


The other outrage here that drives home the true inequality of blacks and whites before the law is that these racist klansmen scumbags walked free for two months with all their klansmen DA homies just passed on the work cuz what's one more dead [ ]...ain't that right Billy Bob? Meanwhile, the three black people up in Detroit were arrested instantaneously and there warn't even no video of the affair! That's the real difference right there, it's the true value of life our system of justice applies against both victims and perpetrators based on the color of their skin. I hope these two assholes get the federal injection.

No need to make the initial DA’s behavior about race, they are known to protect their own regardless of the race of the victim. There’s even a recent example with the exact same DA when an unarmed white woman was shot by cops and she misrepresented evidence to the grand jury to make it look much more favorable for the cops. Not that it made the national news...

https://investigations.ajc.com/caroline-small-shooting/
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 9:28 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
winginit wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

They have just been arrested for murder. It won't go to trial, they will likely cut a deal.


Georgia AG has just requested DOJ investigation, so now most definitely zero chance of it not going to trial.


Doesn't guarantee it will. Murder is a tough charge if they don't get a change of venue it's a risk where manslaughter is a slam dunk.

seb146 wrote:


No. Once this was found out, the same chorus of people came out, as they do, and blame the victim. Just like they blamed Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin and Sandra Bland and Botham Jean and so many other unarmed people.

BTW, the DA is friends with one of the shooters and she blocked the immediate arrest of McMichael Sr.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/watch-gb ... djyWYjB2L/


We have asked you to provide the statements of people here blaming the victim which of course you ignore. We know the DA tried to cover this up but for to you use it as cover to go on a rant about racism is petty and I wish you would cease this practice.

BTW Trayvon began assaulting Zimmerman and was bashing his head into the ground during the encounter. It is in no way relative to this shooting.


you don't know that, there was no video your just taking the world of Zimmerman becaues dead men tell no tales.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Mon May 11, 2020 10:58 pm

seb146 wrote:

Posts 7, 11, 23.... the same posters posting the same "blame the victim" posts.

And, no, Trayvon did not start off by assaulting Zimmerman. Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. Trayvon did not have a gun. He was walking. Blame the victim.


The quote feature works but it doesn't if you don't have anything to quote.


Trayvon didn't have to begin to bash his head into the ground. If he kept walking and didn't engage he would be alive today. Racial profile sucks but you don't have to attack the person profiling you.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 12:46 am

some people will always have tunnel vison. thankgoodness, video surviellance is everywhre.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 12:58 am

Because of the attention this case got, the investigation has been transferred to the State from the local prosecutor, 2 suspects are arrested. Let the investigation continue, do it right make sure the suspects have high enough bail and wait for the plea deal as a trial, with the pandemic, may not happen for 1-2 years.
 
FGITD
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 1:39 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Posts 7, 11, 23.... the same posters posting the same "blame the victim" posts.

And, no, Trayvon did not start off by assaulting Zimmerman. Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon. Trayvon did not have a gun. He was walking. Blame the victim.


The quote feature works but it doesn't if you don't have anything to quote.


Trayvon didn't have to begin to bash his head into the ground. If he kept walking and didn't engage he would be alive today. Racial profile sucks but you don't have to attack the person profiling you.


Remind me again since it's been a few years. What crime did Martin commit? I mean before the trigger happy cop wannabe started stalking him. What warranted that?

We live in the land of the free, where you're free to do as you please...unless someone with a gun decides that you're suspicious. Then he's reasonably entitled to shoot you dead based on his own suspicions, regardless of how baseless they are.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 3:14 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:


you don't know that, there was no video your just taking the world of Zimmerman becaues dead men tell no tales.


No but an eyewitness saw Trayvon on top of him and Zimmerman's injuries are consistent with some type of beating.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... EE20130629

FGITD wrote:

Remind me again since it's been a few years. What crime did Martin commit? I mean before the trigger happy cop wannabe started stalking him. What warranted that?

We live in the land of the free, where you're free to do as you please...unless someone with a gun decides that you're suspicious. Then he's reasonably entitled to shoot you dead based on his own suspicions, regardless of how baseless they are.


Nice hyperbole but you know your reaching here. Zimmerman didn't shoot him because he was suspicious he shot him because instead of leaving the scene or telling Zimmerman who he was he escalated the confrontation into a fight.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
FGITD
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 3:23 am

NIKV69 wrote:

Nice hyperbole but you know your reaching here. Zimmerman didn't shoot him because he was suspicious he shot him because instead of leaving the scene or telling Zimmerman who he was he escalated the confrontation into a fight.


So why does he owe Zimmerman an explanation or even identification, and furthermore, why did he have to leave the area? As I recall, he was shot less than 100 yards from the place he was staying. Someone with a gun approaches me on my street to interrogate me, I'm not going to assume they have my best interests in mind.

I'm not going to argue the point any further, as there's no sense in debating an 8 year old murder. But the simple point remains that there's too many cases of irresponsible gun owners killing someone because somehow they felt "scared"
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 5:08 am

NIKV69 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:


you don't know that, there was no video your just taking the world of Zimmerman becaues dead men tell no tales.


No but an eyewitness saw Trayvon on top of him and Zimmerman's injuries are consistent with some type of beating.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... EE20130629





Your own link says they never saw Zimmerman hitting him.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 6:03 am

Well, the McMichael's are boned, even Fox News is coming out against them. And Nancy Grace called out the prosecutor trying to justify it before he handed it off:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/ahmaud-ar ... ancy-grace

And sorry, you pursue, you leave your safe area to go after someone, you don't get to kill them. You do, then you should go to prison.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Kno
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 6:48 am

A.net conversations about race are always painful to read.

No matter what side the poster is on the posts tend to read old, white, and out of touch.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 7:34 am

Tugger wrote:

These two murders deserve to face severe consequences.

Tugg


I never said they shouldn't, it is a tragic death, but I wouldn't be surprised if the charge was reduced to manslaughter. I don't see how they could be convicted of murder, to be convicted of murder you have to prove they intended to kill him.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 10:20 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the charge was reduced to manslaughter. I don't see how they could be convicted of murder, to be convicted of murder you have to prove they intended to kill him.


One of them is charged with felony murder which does not strictly require intent to kill.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 10:54 am

AeroVega wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the charge was reduced to manslaughter. I don't see how they could be convicted of murder, to be convicted of murder you have to prove they intended to kill him.


One of them is charged with felony murder which does not strictly require intent to kill.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule


After reading what a felony murder is, I can't get my head around how that works in this case either. Manslaughter appears to be a slam dunk to me.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 12:54 pm

FGITD wrote:
Someone with a gun approaches me on my street to interrogate me, I'm not going to assume they have my best interests in mind.



I would imagine you wouldn't start a physical altercation either. I remember once I was spotting at JFK and when I was leaving a John Q public freaked out and thought I was up to no good. He got too close as I was leaving and I calmly told him to get away from me or I would call the police. He then threatened to block my car backing out in which I just kept backing up till he moved. At no point did I engage him or try to fight him. If Trayvon did this he would still be alive. He chose to violently engage Zimmerman.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:



Your own link says they never saw Zimmerman hitting him.



They witnessed him on top of him, pinning him down and Zimmerman had injuries consistent with getting hit. What do you think happened?

Tugger wrote:
Well, the McMichael's are boned, even Fox News is coming out against them. And Nancy Grace called out the prosecutor trying to justify it before he handed it off:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/ahmaud-ar ... ancy-grace

And sorry, you pursue, you leave your safe area to go after someone, you don't get to kill them. You do, then you should go to prison.

Tugg


They will be going to prison.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
Jetty
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 1:53 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the charge was reduced to manslaughter. I don't see how they could be convicted of murder, to be convicted of murder you have to prove they intended to kill him.


One of them is charged with felony murder which does not strictly require intent to kill.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule


After reading what a felony murder is, I can't get my head around how that works in this case either. Manslaughter appears to be a slam dunk to me.

I can. If they wanted to make a citizens arrest that wasn’t legal the resulting death is felony murder as it resulted from the separate false imprisonment offense.
 
JJJ
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 2:03 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Someone with a gun approaches me on my street to interrogate me, I'm not going to assume they have my best interests in mind.



I would imagine you wouldn't start a physical altercation either. I remember once I was spotting at JFK and when I was leaving a John Q public freaked out and thought I was up to no good. He got too close as I was leaving and I calmly told him to get away from me or I would call the police. He then threatened to block my car backing out in which I just kept backing up till he moved. At no point did I engage him or try to fight him. If Trayvon did this he would still be alive. He chose to violently engage Zimmerman.


So it's OK to shoot at someone because you feel threatened but it's not ok to punch someone if you feel threatened?

I'm confused, unless the answer is "whoever has the gun is always right".
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 2:47 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
These two murders deserve to face severe consequences.


I never said they shouldn't, it is a tragic death, but I wouldn't be surprised if the charge was reduced to manslaughter. I don't see how they could be convicted of murder, to be convicted of murder you have to prove they intended to kill him.

They pursued him, they armed themselves to do so, that is intent. Guns have one purpose: to kill. That is it. If you are not ready to kill then they are useless. You bring a gun, you are ready to use is and that means to kill. So don't pursue or don't arm yourself if you do so.

JJJ wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Someone with a gun approaches me on my street to interrogate me, I'm not going to assume they have my best interests in mind.


I would imagine you wouldn't start a physical altercation either. I remember once I was spotting at JFK and when I was leaving a John Q public freaked out and thought I was up to no good. He got too close as I was leaving and I calmly told him to get away from me or I would call the police. He then threatened to block my car backing out in which I just kept backing up till he moved. At no point did I engage him or try to fight him. If Trayvon did this he would still be alive. He chose to violently engage Zimmerman.


So it's OK to shoot at someone because you feel threatened but it's not ok to punch someone if you feel threatened?

I'm confused, unless the answer is "whoever has the gun is always right".

"Whoever lives to tell their story and only their story, is right" If Trayvon had lived Zimmerman would have been convicted.

And yes is it OK to resist someone trying to use force to stop you. If they are using a gun to do so, they are threatening to kill you. Otherwise they would not have a gun. As a law abiding person you have a right to defend yourself from someone who pursues you and threatens you. If you are engaged in criminal activity then you will be held accountable for that any any action you take to continue that activity, such as attacking someone trying to stop that activity.

These two are screwed because there was no actual criminal activity. So what followed was not OK.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
StarAC17
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 3:48 pm

Tugger wrote:
Well, the McMichael's are boned, even Fox News is coming out against them. And Nancy Grace called out the prosecutor trying to justify it before he handed it off:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/ahmaud-ar ... ancy-grace

And sorry, you pursue, you leave your safe area to go after someone, you don't get to kill them. You do, then you should go to prison.

Tugg


I hope you are right but I don't have your confidence.

With the video of Arbery going into the construction site even though doing nothing which the homeowner corroborated. Alsp him attempting to defend himself I just see a huge smear campaign against him in the media and in the courtroom to create enough reasonable doubt so that these guys are either acquitted or sentenced to involuntary manslaughter or some lesser crime.

I really hope I am wrong about this but history rhymes and I think this will have the same result as many cases prior.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 4:41 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Someone with a gun approaches me on my street to interrogate me, I'm not going to assume they have my best interests in mind.



I would imagine you wouldn't start a physical altercation either. I remember once I was spotting at JFK and when I was leaving a John Q public freaked out and thought I was up to no good. He got too close as I was leaving and I calmly told him to get away from me or I would call the police. He then threatened to block my car backing out in which I just kept backing up till he moved. At no point did I engage him or try to fight him. If Trayvon did this he would still be alive. He chose to violently engage Zimmerman.


ZIMMERMAN decided there was threat. Trayvon didn't decide that until Zimmerman was following him and tackled him. Zimmerman was told BY PROFESSIONALS to back off.

Just like in this case. McMichales decided there was a threat. They got their guns and started chasing and yelling and cornered Ahmaud.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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mad99
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 5:46 pm

More video online now. The video shows him walking along the road stop, look around and go into the house. A person across the road sees him and gets closer to the road (maybe phoning the police?). then he comes out of the house running down the road.

So looks like he might not have been out for a run.

Had he not attacked the redneck nothing would have happened because it looks like he’s done nothing wrong. He didn’t take anything from the house.

Had the redneck only pulled the trigger one, one could argue that it was due to the fight but three times? Doesn’t look good for him.

Serious question for gun owners, would getting shot up close with a shotgun not show a lot of damage? Or is that just films?
 
Jetty
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 6:10 pm

mad99 wrote:
Had the redneck only pulled the trigger one, one could argue that it was due to the fight but three times? Doesn’t look good for him.

Even when Arbery would have fought one time was too much. According to their own statement they wanted to make a citizens arrest, yet there wasn’t a legal ground to arrest him thus what they tried to do amounted to false imprisonment. This makes them responsible for all consequences of the confrontation, even in self defense. If I rob a store with a gun I can’t legally shoot the owner in self defense either.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Tue May 12, 2020 6:20 pm

mad99 wrote:
More video online now. The video shows him walking along the road stop, look around and go into the house. A person across the road sees him and gets closer to the road (maybe phoning the police?). then he comes out of the house running down the road.

So looks like he might not have been out for a run.

While you can make that case, it is equally valid that it also does not show anything at all of consequence. You are seeing something you want to see to explain things. It does not show anything illegal or to counter that he was not out for a run. We all take momentary breaks or divert if our attention is taken by something.

If you are concerned the simple thing (the smart thing) to do is call police and report it, take pictures, jot down other information. And additionally report the same to teh home builder, perhaps asking that they get some kind of security (simple camera or otherwise). That is how a situation like this should be addressed, if you have a legitimate concern.

It's not hard people. It really isn't. The idea that you will kill someone (only reason to bring a gun) for what they were describing is just dumb, vile even.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
N583JB
Posts: 521
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Wed May 13, 2020 11:30 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Imagine thinking this is a good justification


I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

Of course it's a justification. Have the "blue/all lives matter" scumbags ever, you know, tried to make all lives matter? In any way whatsoever? Seriously...is there any foundation or group related to those astroturf exercises that is trying to reduce deaths?


It can be argued that Black Lives Matter has actually led to an increased number of deaths because they have glorified criminals, glorified resisting arrest, and created such a false narrative that people have murdered numerous police officers as a result. Additionally, people have been killed in the riots that have been fueled by BLM's false narratives.

Blue Lives Matter, on the other hand, promotes respect for law enforcement which absolutely saves lives on both sides.
 
N583JB
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Wed May 13, 2020 11:32 am

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Here as well as all over the interwebs people are blaming Arbery. "He should not have been stealing things" (he had nothing on him to indicate he stole anything) "he should not have been in that neighborhood" (he lived in the area) "there were burglaries in the area so people were suspicious" (casual racism) and on and on the victim blaming goes.

Oh, and let's not forget that it took months for the two men to be arrested and charged.


So maybe you should have said that the DA tried to covered it up and maybe not said that everyone thinks it's fine that a black got killed because he is black? It would improve the debate.


No. Once this was found out, the same chorus of people came out, as they do, and blame the victim. Just like they blamed Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin and Sandra Bland and Botham Jean and so many other unarmed people.

BTW, the DA is friends with one of the shooters and she blocked the immediate arrest of McMichael Sr.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/watch-gb ... djyWYjB2L/


Isn't Sandra Bland the one who killed herself? Not sure why you are using her as an example.

Also, unarmed does not mean that someone is not a threat. Mike Brown was unarmed but his shooting was found to be 100% clear cut, justified. Additionally, police officers have been killed by unarmed people who have disarmed the officers and shot them with their own sidearm.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Wed May 13, 2020 1:13 pm

mad99 wrote:

Serious question for gun owners, would getting shot up close with a shotgun not show a lot of damage? Or is that just films?


Depends on many factors. In general Hollywood definitely embellishes the effects of a close range shot. But it depends on gauge, load and what kind of shot is used. A 28 or 20 gauge with a light skeet or bird shot load (very small pellets/bbs) doesn't do much damage. (this is why the guy Dick Cheney shot while pheasant hunting didn't get seriously hurt or killed) Ratchet it up to a 12 gauge with a heavy load and a slug (single lead payload) or buck shot (several large pellets/bbs) and you're looking at catastrophic level of damage (after all, that type of load is meant to kill deer).

As with anything it has to do with physics. KE = 1/2m(v^2). Light loads have very low velocity.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Wed May 13, 2020 1:32 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
mad99 wrote:

Serious question for gun owners, would getting shot up close with a shotgun not show a lot of damage? Or is that just films?


Depends on many factors. In general Hollywood definitely embellishes the effects of a close range shot. But it depends on gauge, load and what kind of shot is used. A 28 or 20 gauge with a light skeet or bird shot load (very small pellets/bbs) doesn't do much damage. (this is why the guy Dick Cheney shot while pheasant hunting didn't get seriously hurt or killed) Ratchet it up to a 12 gauge with a heavy load and a slug (single lead payload) or buck shot (several large pellets/bbs) and you're looking at catastrophic level of damage (after all, that type of load is meant to kill deer).

As with anything it has to do with physics. KE = 1/2m(v^2). Light loads have very low velocity.


velocity=Kinetic Energy right?


Interesting follow up though to further drive home the point.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/truth-ab ... un-shells/
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Wed May 13, 2020 4:12 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
mad99 wrote:

Serious question for gun owners, would getting shot up close with a shotgun not show a lot of damage? Or is that just films?


Depends on many factors. In general Hollywood definitely embellishes the effects of a close range shot. But it depends on gauge, load and what kind of shot is used. A 28 or 20 gauge with a light skeet or bird shot load (very small pellets/bbs) doesn't do much damage. (this is why the guy Dick Cheney shot while pheasant hunting didn't get seriously hurt or killed) Ratchet it up to a 12 gauge with a heavy load and a slug (single lead payload) or buck shot (several large pellets/bbs) and you're looking at catastrophic level of damage (after all, that type of load is meant to kill deer).

As with anything it has to do with physics. KE = 1/2m(v^2). Light loads have very low velocity.


velocity=Kinetic Energy right?


Interesting follow up though to further drive home the point.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/truth-ab ... un-shells/


I mean, the equation is right there.. Kinetic Energy = 1/2 Mass * Velocity * Velocity

Light loads have lower muzzle velocity and thus carry significantly less energy (stopping power) than a similar mass, heavy load. The term light load vs heavy load refers to the amount of black powder and the exit velocity, more than it does the mass of the pellets being propelled. (light grain count vs heavy grain count - some also like to think of it in terms of the recoil, light load = light kickback)
 
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casinterest
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Wed May 13, 2020 4:33 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

Depends on many factors. In general Hollywood definitely embellishes the effects of a close range shot. But it depends on gauge, load and what kind of shot is used. A 28 or 20 gauge with a light skeet or bird shot load (very small pellets/bbs) doesn't do much damage. (this is why the guy Dick Cheney shot while pheasant hunting didn't get seriously hurt or killed) Ratchet it up to a 12 gauge with a heavy load and a slug (single lead payload) or buck shot (several large pellets/bbs) and you're looking at catastrophic level of damage (after all, that type of load is meant to kill deer).

As with anything it has to do with physics. KE = 1/2m(v^2). Light loads have very low velocity.


velocity=Kinetic Energy right?


Interesting follow up though to further drive home the point.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/truth-ab ... un-shells/


I mean, the equation is right there.. Kinetic Energy = 1/2 Mass * Velocity * Velocity

Light loads have lower muzzle velocity and thus carry significantly less energy (stopping power) than a similar mass, heavy load. The term light load vs heavy load refers to the amount of black powder and the exit velocity, more than it does the mass of the pellets being propelled. (light grain count vs heavy grain count - some also like to think of it in terms of the recoil, light load = light kickback)


I was pointing out your statement. Light loads have very low velocity, which is not true , and that you made a typo.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 1421
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Thu May 14, 2020 6:51 am

mad99 wrote:
More video online now. The video shows him walking along the road stop, look around and go into the house. A person across the road sees him and gets closer to the road (maybe phoning the police?). then he comes out of the house running down the road.

So looks like he might not have been out for a run.

Had he not attacked the redneck nothing would have happened because it looks like he’s done nothing wrong. He didn’t take anything from the house.

Had the redneck only pulled the trigger one, one could argue that it was due to the fight but three times? Doesn’t look good for him.

Serious question for gun owners, would getting shot up close with a shotgun not show a lot of damage? Or is that just films?


I saw him jogging, at a steady pace on the video. Do you not think it's possible to stop jogging, take a look at a house, and then resume jogging?
The owner of the house was fine with it, he's not pressing charges. Nothing wrong with being lookie Lou, he didn't take anything the owner said.
He was just looking at the floor plan. I have looked at plenty of houses that are at
the skeleton stage. Nobody called the cops on me.

apparently, someone looked at the house two weeks before this, and the same suspect "Travis" called the police on them as well.
 
extender
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Thu May 14, 2020 3:33 pm

No excuse for their actions. They need to rot in prison.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 12:32 am

More of this crap that would never happen to me or many others here in this guy’s place:

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing ... stioned-by
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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scbriml
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 11:15 am

Aaron747 wrote:
More of this crap that would never happen to me or many others here in this guy’s place:

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing ... stioned-by


To be fair, it must have been a bit of a shock to see a black man inside a gated community. :shock:

Wait, there are gated communities in Oklahoma? :duck:
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Aaron747
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 12:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
More of this crap that would never happen to me or many others here in this guy’s place:

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing ... stioned-by


To be fair, it must have been a bit of a shock to see a black man inside a gated community. :shock:

Wait, there are gated communities in Oklahoma? :duck:


They exist in all 50 states as ubiquitously as Walmart and auto demolition yards do.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
aerosreenivas
Posts: 147
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 4:08 pm

I feel the situation has become so worse that every 'Afro American' should thank GOD every day for being alive the very next day. Because sadly, people like Arbery, Travon Martin, David Brown, and many others will be mistaken for as a criminal by some folks and be killed in the name of 'Self-Defence'.

Unfortunately, I feel the Arbery case also will end up this way with the shooters declared as 'Innocent' and the killing legitimate.

But the real reason that we all know is that they are getting killed because they are 'Black'. Period.
 
N583JB
Posts: 521
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 4:46 pm

aerosreenivas wrote:
I feel the situation has become so worse that every 'Afro American' should thank GOD every day for being alive the very next day. Because sadly, people like Arbery, Travon Martin, David Brown, and many others will be mistaken for as a criminal by some folks and be killed in the name of 'Self-Defence'.

Unfortunately, I feel the Arbery case also will end up this way with the shooters declared as 'Innocent' and the killing legitimate.

But the real reason that we all know is that they are getting killed because they are 'Black'. Period.


Who is/was David Brown?
 
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seb146
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Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 5:58 pm

N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

So maybe you should have said that the DA tried to covered it up and maybe not said that everyone thinks it's fine that a black got killed because he is black? It would improve the debate.


No. Once this was found out, the same chorus of people came out, as they do, and blame the victim. Just like they blamed Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin and Sandra Bland and Botham Jean and so many other unarmed people.

BTW, the DA is friends with one of the shooters and she blocked the immediate arrest of McMichael Sr.

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/watch-gb ... djyWYjB2L/


Isn't Sandra Bland the one who killed herself? Not sure why you are using her as an example.

Also, unarmed does not mean that someone is not a threat. Mike Brown was unarmed but his shooting was found to be 100% clear cut, justified. Additionally, police officers have been killed by unarmed people who have disarmed the officers and shot them with their own sidearm.


Sandra Bland died in police custody after being arrested driving home. The coroner ruled her death a suicide but there are still questions about her treatment while in custody.

As far as your second statement, you are just trying to muddy the waters. A person walking or jogging or sitting in a park obeying the law then, suddenly, are shot because "they look suspicious" is what I am talking about.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
aerosreenivas
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Re: Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Discussion

Fri May 15, 2020 6:04 pm

N583JB wrote:
aerosreenivas wrote:
I feel the situation has become so worse that every 'Afro American' should thank GOD every day for being alive the very next day. Because sadly, people like Arbery, Travon Martin, David Brown, and many others will be mistaken for as a criminal by some folks and be killed in the name of 'Self-Defence'.

Unfortunately, I feel the Arbery case also will end up this way with the shooters declared as 'Innocent' and the killing legitimate.

But the real reason that we all know is that they are getting killed because they are 'Black'. Period.


Who is/was David Brown?


Sorry for getting the name wrong. It was actually Michael Brown that I was talking about. The guy from Ferguson, Missouri that was killed by the white police officer, Darren Wilson in August, 2014.

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