N583JB wrote:

Agreed. I think the disparity in crime rates is tied very closely poverty rates. Poor people are more likely to get involved in crime for a number of reasons (desperation, lack of options, difficult upbringings, etc). It just so happens that a minorities are disproportionately represented amongst the poor population, which also makes then disproportionately represented in things like crime statistics.

I agree overall, however will note an exception to:
"It just so happens that a minorities are disproportionately represented amongst the poor population, "....

It didn't "just so happen" and doesn't "just so happen" to persist. It is a sad and unfortunate fact that the USA was founded with slavery as a part of it (written into our constitution), and it took many years and a war to end it legally and then many more years and many more laws to try to stop its deep roots. And even now its effects are still felt and seen, and racism is taught into some people even today.

Minorities have throughout history been disadvantaged and pushed to the margins, shunned and not welcomed, by whatever "majority" was in place wherever. It is a fact of life and the world, no one can deny that nor that it happens here as well. We need to actively discuss and fight against anything that allows racism to fester or worse, grow. We need to actively internally, stop an initial impulse we ourselves may have when engaging with someone. Whether that is going out of our way to be nice, say "hi", or push aside latent distrust of people you don't know that is only heightened by residual "they're different" instinctive reactions we all have. We all need to participate and change how things are and bring people "different from us" to be as our equals.

This doesn't mean everyone is racist but I am saying you can't just say "I'm not racist", you have to actively be not racist, anti-racist, the opposite of racist, to make a real change in how minorities fare in our nation. And of course these does not allay any responsibility from those in this situation from also active participating in doing good for themselves, for doing what is best for their communities, for helping themselves, etc.

But it sure would help if such people weren't killed, obviously hunted and murdered only to have those that did the act be excused by others like them. To have people making excuses as to why it might be OK or why someone now reacting to the obvious crime is instead or now the problem. Just stop that.

This young man was chased and murdered and others wanted to excuse that... until it became impossible to do so.

That is a really big problem. That is the problem.

Tugg

NIKV69 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

What’s really sad is GA has made tattoo parlors essential while the grand jury process has been sitting on its ass for three months on this - no thanks to the apparently conflicted DA. These two need to be on trial for murder pronto.

They have just been arrested for murder. It won't go to trial, they will likely cut a deal.

Virtually zero chance of a deal in a case that has become this high profile nationally. Prosecution will have no incentive whatsoever to agree to a deal.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper ... d/full.pdf

this is why they didn't arrest the father and son. Well at first. I am having a hard time swallowing most of it. the 3rd page. It seems like the DA thinks the victim pulled the 3rd and final shot on himself. I'm surprised the DA didn't say it was a suicide.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/6916-george-barnhill-letter-to-glyn/b52fa09cdc974b970b79/optimized/full.pdf

this is why they didn't arrest the father and son. Well at first. I am having a hard time swallowing most of it. the 3rd page. It seems like the DA thinks the victim pulled the 3rd and final shot on himself. I'm surprised the DA didn't say it was a suicide.

Interesting (sadly so).
It will be interesting (there is that word again) to see how this cited law:

OCGA 17 -4 - 60 A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge . If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion .”

Is abused or reinterpreted to allow for the use of a firearms to kill someone, just like sworn law enforcement, for a citizens arrest.

Me? I say you can have your firearm and use it in your defense and in your home. But once you leave and pursue someone, in other words abandon your safe. protected area, you do not have the right to use your weapon freely. And any death resulting will be viewed as preventable and therefore illegal in the eyes of the law without overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Tugg

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

The thing though is that no two situations are the same. You can't compare apples and cheeseburgers. Tamir Rice was killed largely because of incompetence, IMO. The first problem is that the 911 caller told the 911 calltaker that Rice was pointing a gun at people, and then clarified that "it is probably a toy gun or something". The "toy gun" part was not relayed to responding police officers. So, the officers who were en route to the call only knew that they were being called for someone pointing a gun at people in a park, i.e. what sounded very much like an active shooter situation.

The second piece of incompetence involved the officer who was driving the police cruiser. He drove right up to Rice and placed the officer in the passenger seat essentially face to face with what they were told was an armed gunman with no cover. This left the officer in the passenger seat with zero chance to take a step back or evaluate anything....he was presented with what he believed was a man with a gun directly in front of him and had a split second to react. It is easy to see how this Officer was justifiably in fear for his safety because of the position that his partner put him in. If the officers had taken a better approach, Rice would have had more time to react and the situation probably would have ended peacefully. The shooting of Rice was bad policework, but it did not rise to the level of a crime.

With regard to the armed moronic reopen protesters, nothing about their appearance was a crime. The officers involved had days or potentially even weeks to prepare for these protests. They likely had intelligence from within the specific groups indicating that the protests would be nonviolent. Even so, I can promise you there were snipers and heavily armed SWAT members nearby watching the entire event unfold from a secure position. If any of those militia members had tried to raise their weapon in order to use it, they would have been dropped very quickly.

Groups of White people armed to the teeth walking into government buildings and suffer zero consequences. A child sitting in a park is gunned down. You are right they are not the same at all. A Black man walking through an apartment complex armed with Skittles and a bottle of iced tea gunned down because someone saw him walking. A Black man driving gunned down by police for driving his own damn car. A White female police officer walks into the wrong apartment and shoots a Black man dead who was just sitting in his own apartment.

Rice was standing, not sitting, but semantics. And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

And he was gunned down for practicing his Second Amendment rights. Zero White people were gunned down in government buildings during these astro turf protests for doing exactly what Rice did. White people jog by construction zones all the time. White people stop and look at new housing construction all the time. Zero are shot for simply being. Zero are cornered and murdered for simply looking.

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Groups of White people armed to the teeth walking into government buildings and suffer zero consequences. A child sitting in a park is gunned down. You are right they are not the same at all. A Black man walking through an apartment complex armed with Skittles and a bottle of iced tea gunned down because someone saw him walking. A Black man driving gunned down by police for driving his own damn car. A White female police officer walks into the wrong apartment and shoots a Black man dead who was just sitting in his own apartment.

Rice was standing, not sitting, but semantics. And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

And he was gunned down for practicing his Second Amendment rights. Zero White people were gunned down in government buildings during these astro turf protests for doing exactly what Rice did. White people jog by construction zones all the time. White people stop and look at new housing construction all the time. Zero are shot for simply being. Zero are cornered and murdered for simply looking.

That's patently false....12 year olds do not have a constitutional right to own a handgun. You need a permit in order to own one, and even if you have a permit, you cannot point that gun at people for no reason.

There have been hate crimes against white people in the past few years....I seem to recall a black nationalist killing several white people in California just because they were white. So, stop with the hyperbole. People are shot "just for simply being" all the time.

N583JB wrote:

That's patently false....12 year olds do not have a constitutional right to own a handgun.

The 2nd Amendment does not discriminate on the basis of age in any part. I can buy a newborn a weapon and, provided the state has no requirements for the purchase, the newborn baby is within its rights. If you're going to use the "well regulated" part of the amendment as an excuse to keep minors away from guns, then you must also accept that "well regulated" can also be extended to mean that the bearer must have passed a safety course and possess a valid license/permit, and (should the state mandate it) be insured for any damages (intentional or otherwise) caused by the weapon. You can't have it both ways.

N583JB wrote:

People are shot "just for simply being" all the time.

When was the last time a Black cop walked into the wrong apartment and shot its White occupant? When was the last time a White jogger was chased down by two Black men (who had time to arm themselves and get in a truck) and killed? When was the last time a White man warned that he had a gun and a permit in his glove box when asked to present a registration and was shot by a Black cop because "he feared for his life"? When was the last time a White teenager stole goods from a store and received 15+ shots? When was the last time a White man (selling cigarettes illegally) got tackled and forced into a chokehold by a Black cop?

I'll wait.

einsteinboricua wrote:

N583JB wrote:

That's patently false....12 year olds do not have a constitutional right to own a handgun.

The 2nd Amendment does not discriminate on the basis of age in any part. I can buy a newborn a weapon and, provided the state has no requirements for the purchase, the newborn baby is within its rights. If you're going to use the "well regulated" part of the amendment as an excuse to keep minors away from guns, then you must also accept that "well regulated" can also be extended to mean that the bearer must have passed a safety course and possess a valid license/permit, and (should the state mandate it) be insured for any damages (intentional or otherwise) caused by the weapon. You can't have it both ways.

I'm speaking to existing laws, not hypothetical ones. It is unlawful for a 12 year old to possess a handgun unless that 12 year-old is being supervised (i.e., at a range). It is unlawful for anyone to go to a park and point that handgun at random people. Those aren't hypotheticals. That is the law. Saying that "he was simply exercising his 2nd Amendment rights" is like saying that someone was "simply exercising their first amendment rights" by trying to break into Area 51.

When was the last time a Black cop walked into the wrong apartment and shot its White occupant? When was the last time a White jogger was chased down by two Black men (who had time to arm themselves and get in a truck) and killed? When was the last time a White man warned that he had a gun and a permit in his glove box when asked to present a registration and was shot by a Black cop because "he feared for his life"? When was the last time a White teenager stole goods from a store and received 15+ shots? When was the last time a White man (selling cigarettes illegally) got tackled and forced into a chokehold by a Black cop?

I'll wait.

Is your argument that every single crime has to be exactly the same? You listed a handful of incidents in the past 10 years. I could very easily list another handful of incidents and scream at you about "when was the last time a white woman was shot and killed by a black police officer simply for walking outside of his cruiser"? Once again, bad things happen to people every single day. You are trying to create a narrative that doesn't exist.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

Are you sure about this? I am African American and I know nobody who would ever say this... If anything, you won't hear some African Americans being loud and vocal (in non-Black spaces at least) because many have accepted that the reality is there is racism and discrimination and that's just America which is how it has always been. You are trying to suggest that being "hard working" means not "complaining about the US being racist" but most African Americans I know are hard working and are simultaneously very conscious of the fact that racism in the US is still very widespread and it affects the way they move through life. Do you know how many people I know that have had security or the police called on them, not even because they are doing anything, but because they "look out of place" in a particular building or neighborhood? There are certain things I would never wear in certain places because I wouldn't want someone to mistake me for a "thug" or a "criminal."

Most Black people are aware of these realities as just things they need to be mindful of in their daily lives. So given that, I really have never heard, in real life at least, an African American say let's just "move on". The only people I've seen that from are from the Black Twitter conservatives that get blasted and retweeted by white conservatives because the "move on there's no racism" rhetoric fits their narrative.

I really don't understand how this country can be built on hundreds of years of extreme discrimination against Black people, which was blatantly legal until not that long ago really and still continues to be widely implicit in US society, yet people think African Americans should just "move on." How you can even suggest that under a post where we're discussing an African American man being effectively lynched for no reason in 2020 other than his skin color...

N583JB wrote:

I'm speaking to existing laws, not hypothetical ones.

Then those laws, if challenged, would be unconstitutional. We can take comfort in knowing that common sense still prevails and a minor has no standing to sue and everyone agrees that minors should not be allowed to have weapons.

But you didn't say "laws" in your post. You spoke about a constitutional right; I merely pointed out that, because there's no age restriction in the amendment, a strict interpretation would allow minors to possess a handgun if they had the money to purchase one. Age would not be a factor in denying a gun. For that matter, given that we had to amend the Constitution to explicitly allow women and non-Whites to vote, the 2nd Amendment would need to be rewritten to specify who it applies to.

N583JB wrote:

It is unlawful for a 12 year old to possess a handgun unless that 12 year-old is being supervised (i.e., at a range).

But not unconstitutional. Again, if these laws were ever challenged, they may be struck down.

N583JB wrote:

It is unlawful for anyone to go to a park and point that handgun at random people. Those aren't hypotheticals. That is the law.

That has nothing to do with the constitutionality of firearms and more with responsible use. A driver's license entitles me and my car to use the road; doesn't mean I can swerve around and become a threat to pedestrians.

N583JB wrote:

Saying that "he was simply exercising his 2nd Amendment rights" is like saying that someone was "simply exercising their first amendment rights" by trying to break into Area 51.

I haven't said that. If anything I am strongly in favor of putting further regulations for gun ownership (require a license, insurance, and registration). The people who feel a need to open/conceal carry do so to show off. And those who feel a need to arm themselves to protect against a "tyrannical" government are deluded. If the government really wanted to prosecute you, they have elite squadrons that know how to face fire; a drone can launch a weapon small enough to hurt but not kill you, disabling you from your weapon.

N583JB wrote:

You are trying to create a narrative that doesn't exist.

But you seem to minimize what is happening here. Sweep it under the rug because this ain't a new thing in the country.

einsteinboricua wrote:

N583JB wrote:

I'm speaking to existing laws, not hypothetical ones.

Then those laws, if challenged, would be unconstitutional. We can take comfort in knowing that common sense still prevails and a minor has no standing to sue and everyone agrees that minors should not be allowed to have weapons.

But you didn't say "laws" in your post. You spoke about a constitutional right; I merely pointed out that, because there's no age restriction in the amendment, a strict interpretation would allow minors to possess a handgun if they had the money to purchase one. Age would not be a factor in denying a gun. For that matter, given that we had to amend the Constitution to explicitly allow women and non-Whites to vote, the 2nd Amendment would need to be rewritten to specify who it applies to.

N583JB wrote:

It is unlawful for a 12 year old to possess a handgun unless that 12 year-old is being supervised (i.e., at a range).

But not unconstitutional. Again, if these laws were ever challenged, they may be struck down.

N583JB wrote:

It is unlawful for anyone to go to a park and point that handgun at random people. Those aren't hypotheticals. That is the law.

That has nothing to do with the constitutionality of firearms and more with responsible use. A driver's license entitles me and my car to use the road; doesn't mean I can swerve around and become a threat to pedestrians.

N583JB wrote:

Saying that "he was simply exercising his 2nd Amendment rights" is like saying that someone was "simply exercising their first amendment rights" by trying to break into Area 51.

I haven't said that. If anything I am strongly in favor of putting further regulations for gun ownership (require a license, insurance, and registration). The people who feel a need to open/conceal carry do so to show off. And those who feel a need to arm themselves to protect against a "tyrannical" government are deluded. If the government really wanted to prosecute you, they have elite squadrons that know how to face fire; a drone can launch a weapon small enough to hurt but not kill you, disabling you from your weapon.

N583JB wrote:

You are trying to create a narrative that doesn't exist.

But you seem to minimize what is happening here. Sweep it under the rug because this ain't a new thing in the country.

I'm not even sure if you know what you are arguing. The second amendment doesn't give 12 year olds the right to point guns at people. Rice wasn't "shot for exercising his 2nd amendment rights". That statement is patently false.

People who concealed carry aren't doing so to "show off". Concealed weapons are just that....concealed.

Ask the military about Afghanistan or Vietnam. Armed insurgencies can definitely cause major problems for large militaries. Not that I think it will ever come to that here. I think a more likely scenario is a societal breakdown in which everyone is left to fend for themselves for a time. In that case, those who own firearms will have an immense advantage over those who don't.

Interestingly I don't have or own firearms and I have a tremendous advantage over those that do!

Tugg

AirWorthy99 wrote:

If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

This is almost too divorced from reality to bother responding to. I’ll just put it this way - I have an old friend who hit it big in his online business a few years ago, keeps his head down, and minds his own business. He also happens to own a twin engine aircraft hangered at an airport in Southern California. He posted something very angry last year on FB about an overnight visit to UT with his wife. Visiting pilots who overnight receive a key to unlock the gate, which was left in their aircraft. Long story short, he was unable to go through the gate and as it was early morning and the FBO nearby was closed, didn’t have the key, so he hopped a four-foot chainlink fence, hoping to find someone and thinking he probably forgot the key when he kept some unneeded belongings in the aircraft overnight. He found two security guards instead, who immediately started hassling and manhandling him, and one got on the radio to call cops. They detained him and refused to believe he was the aircraft owner, even as he showed them a Beechcraft keyring and with his wife yelling through the fence. Only some thirty minutes later after cops arrived did they allow him to prove he was the aircraft’s owner and had a right to be there. Can you honestly say things would go down in identical fashion if it were you or me? The guy is a multimillionaire, but dressed in jeans and a t-shirt and being black, they assumed he was suspicious first. Just stupid.

So what do you do? You’re out for a run and suddenly you’re approached by two armed rednecks. Keep running knowing that these guys won’t keep up. Stop and talk to them. Attack them!

It’s probably not going to end well when two people fight over a gun.

N583JB wrote:

scbriml wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Do you have any evidence that black men are being "hunted every day"? Hyperbole and sensationalism are harmful, as are false narrarives.

This case is literally about a black man being hunted and killed. In 2020. Lebron may have exaggerated, but that doesn't change the case.

You are right that this case is about a man being hunted and killed, but Lebron said that this happens "every day". That is quite the exaggeration. Perhaps Lebron should take a page out of his own book and only comment on things that he knows about.

I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds like Lebron James's exaggeration is more annoying to some than the fact an unarmed black jogger was hunted down and killed?

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

This is almost too divorced from reality to bother responding to. I’ll just put it this way - I have an old friend who hit it big in his online business a few years ago, keeps his head down, and minds his own business. He also happens to own a twin engine aircraft hangered at an airport in Southern California. He posted something very angry last year on FB about an overnight visit to UT with his wife. Visiting pilots who overnight receive a key to unlock the gate, which was left in their aircraft. Long story short, he was unable to go through the gate and as it was early morning and the FBO nearby was closed, didn’t have the key, so he hopped a four-foot chainlink fence, hoping to find someone and thinking he probably forgot the key when he kept some unneeded belongings in the aircraft overnight. He found two security guards instead, who immediately started hassling and manhandling him, and one got on the radio to call cops. They detained him and refused to believe he was the aircraft owner, even as he showed them a Beechcraft keyring and with his wife yelling through the fence. Only some thirty minutes later after cops arrived did they allow him to prove he was the aircraft’s owner and had a right to be there. Can you honestly say things would go down in identical fashion if it were you or me? The guy is a multimillionaire, but dressed in jeans and a t-shirt and being black, they assumed he was suspicious first. Just stupid.

in Vegas, less than 10 years ago.we were in our airline uniforms leaving the employee parking lot when two police came up and arrested by black supervisor. They threw him on the ground and sat on him like a hog. I asked them what he had done wrong, they said there was a report of a black man who robbed a bank in the area and he fit the description. my supervisor is bald. I told him, I've been with him all day at the airport, we have footage. It didn't matter they arrested him. I called the manager and she pulled the footage and send it over to the airport police, who forwards it to the idiots who arrested him. It just soured me totally. There some real loser cops out there. I can not fathom, any small town retired cop doing what this one did. What sheltered world does he live in, if he actually thought his action would fly without the protection of the good old boys.

NYCVIE wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

Are you sure about this? I am African American and I know nobody who would ever say this... If anything, you won't hear some African Americans being loud and vocal (in non-Black spaces at least) because many have accepted that the reality is there is racism and discrimination and that's just America which is how it has always been. You are trying to suggest that being "hard working" means not "complaining about the US being racist" but most African Americans I know are hard working and are simultaneously very conscious of the fact that racism in the US is still very widespread and it affects the way they move through life. Do you know how many people I know that have had security or the police called on them, not even because they are doing anything, but because they "look out of place" in a particular building or neighborhood? There are certain things I would never wear in certain places because I wouldn't want someone to mistake me for a "thug" or a "criminal."

Most Black people are aware of these realities as just things they need to be mindful of in their daily lives. So given that, I really have never heard, in real life at least, an African American say let's just "move on". The only people I've seen that from are from the Black Twitter conservatives that get blasted and retweeted by white conservatives because the "move on there's no racism" rhetoric fits their narrative.

I really don't understand how this country can be built on hundreds of years of extreme discrimination against Black people, which was blatantly legal until not that long ago really and still continues to be widely implicit in US society, yet people think African Americans should just "move on." How you can even suggest that under a post where we're discussing an African American man being effectively lynched for no reason in 2020 other than his skin color...

Speaking from a LE perspective, it pains me when we get calls that are racist in nature. From the call description it can be blatantly obvious the reporting party is racist. But when we get a call we have to respond in one way or another. It’s like walking on thin ice from the beginning. Unfortunately then the LE catches the flak for the racism. However, seasoned officers can usually diffuse the situation. In the age of camera phones I have been recorded during the entire contact, but have been able to keep the situation calm and usually end it with a hand shake. Most of the time it comes down to demeanor and treating people with dignity and respect despite the circumstances. It would take a long time to share some of my specific encounters during tense times, but I wish the cameras were rolling then to show positive outcomes. Sadly poor previous contacts by both sides create scars and thus lead to preconceived notions. I really do think spending a significant portion of my childhood overseas in Africa and then my military experiences deeply immersed with local cultures has helped me out tremendously in my current career. Sometimes situations develop too rapidly to remain proper control, but thankfully those are incredibly rare. This is just my experience in my area and career.

NYCVIE wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

Are you sure about this? I am African American and I know nobody who would ever say this... If anything, you won't hear some African Americans being loud and vocal (in non-Black spaces at least) because many have accepted that the reality is there is racism and discrimination and that's just America which is how it has always been. You are trying to suggest that being "hard working" means not "complaining about the US being racist" but most African Americans I know are hard working and are simultaneously very conscious of the fact that racism in the US is still very widespread and it affects the way they move through life. Do you know how many people I know that have had security or the police called on them, not even because they are doing anything, but because they "look out of place" in a particular building or neighborhood? There are certain things I would never wear in certain places because I wouldn't want someone to mistake me for a "thug" or a "criminal."

Most Black people are aware of these realities as just things they need to be mindful of in their daily lives. So given that, I really have never heard, in real life at least, an African American say let's just "move on". The only people I've seen that from are from the Black Twitter conservatives that get blasted and retweeted by white conservatives because the "move on there's no racism" rhetoric fits their narrative.

I really don't understand how this country can be built on hundreds of years of extreme discrimination against Black people, which was blatantly legal until not that long ago really and still continues to be widely implicit in US society, yet people think African Americans should just "move on." How you can even suggest that under a post where we're discussing an African American man being effectively lynched for no reason in 2020 other than his skin color...

Of course I have African Americans friends or co-workers tell me they experienced racism, the same way I have friends and co-workers that come from countries where they were persecuted, harassed and ultimately they had to become exiled in the US, they tell me of their stories when the topic comes up. When there were situations going on and the subject came up at work or when I was in college, of course they talked about this.

The same way we talk about these issues in this forum. African Americans certainly have had it worse than any other group in the history of this country, slavery, Jim Crow, the same way my friends that came from Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua and others from Eastern European countries talk about how they and their families endured political persecution just for thinking differently. And no, they did not have it worse than African Americans, but they decided to move on, despite the challenges, the same way most of the African Americans I know did.

Yes racism is prevalent in the US presently, and in other parts of the world, that's something people deal daily, and yes its abhorrent that just because someone is jogging its assumed based on their skin color that they are doing something wrong. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

What I will ask for you is, if you don't wish to move on in your life, what are you proposing? The main problems in the African American community yes, racism is number one, but if you read the discussion among 2 other posters they mentioned many of the issues that have lead to current situations, such as economic disparities, lack of opportunities, etc. If moving on with your life is not an option, what do you propose? There is no way to re-write history, saying how bad the US is because of its past horrendous mistakes won't help in the current situation. You will find that most countries have had similar histories, and its just not something exclusive of the US.

I really hope you don't tell me if moving on is not an option, but trying to change history is, because its impossible to go back and change history. Moving on what should this society do to change things?

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

This is almost too divorced from reality to bother responding to. I’ll just put it this way - I have an old friend who hit it big in his online business a few years ago, keeps his head down, and minds his own business. He also happens to own a twin engine aircraft hangered at an airport in Southern California. He posted something very angry last year on FB about an overnight visit to UT with his wife. Visiting pilots who overnight receive a key to unlock the gate, which was left in their aircraft. Long story short, he was unable to go through the gate and as it was early morning and the FBO nearby was closed, didn’t have the key, so he hopped a four-foot chainlink fence, hoping to find someone and thinking he probably forgot the key when he kept some unneeded belongings in the aircraft overnight. He found two security guards instead, who immediately started hassling and manhandling him, and one got on the radio to call cops. They detained him and refused to believe he was the aircraft owner, even as he showed them a Beechcraft keyring and with his wife yelling through the fence. Only some thirty minutes later after cops arrived did they allow him to prove he was the aircraft’s owner and had a right to be there. Can you honestly say things would go down in identical fashion if it were you or me? The guy is a multimillionaire, but dressed in jeans and a t-shirt and being black, they assumed he was suspicious first. Just stupid.

Where have I said there isn't racism in this country, of course there is.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

What I will ask for you is, if you don't wish to move on in your life, what are you proposing?...

I really hope you don't tell me if moving on is not an option, but trying to change history is, because its impossible to go back and change history. Moving on what should this society do to change things?

As I stated early in the thread, the solution is for everyone to be treated by institutions in the same way. Only that’s much harder than it sounds:

Easy - unity will be ours when we make the country’s laws equally enforced and applicable to all. Make treatment of all by LEOs in like situations also the same. Make it so across all jurisdictional, color, and wealth lines. Oh oops...doesn’t sound so easy now huh?

Also on an unrelated note, FWIW most of the terrible experiences people in Latin America and ME countries had between 1950 and 1990 were because of the Cold War, so ya’ll should squarely blame the USSR and US for not settling their differences earlier and using ‘less important’ countries and their politicians as pawns for proxy war for four decades. Nobody in DC or Moscow actually cared about what was happening to the people in those countries unless it was politically expedient - the harsh reality of realpolitik.

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

What I will ask for you is, if you don't wish to move on in your life, what are you proposing?...

I really hope you don't tell me if moving on is not an option, but trying to change history is, because its impossible to go back and change history. Moving on what should this society do to change things?

As I stated early in the thread, the solution is for everyone to be treated by institutions in the same way. Only that’s much harder than it sounds:

Easy - unity will be ours when we make the country’s laws equally enforced and applicable to all. Make treatment of all by LEOs in like situations also the same. Make it so across all jurisdictional, color, and wealth lines. Oh oops...doesn’t sound so easy now huh?

k.

Yes, congress and the WH should work on this. Its a pity that when the democrats were in full control of congress and the WH 2008-2010 this wasn't addressed, as they seem to be the ones more vocal about this, perhaps coming up with real solutions and resolving them would mean it will be hard for them to get votes later on. They need narratives to win elections, if you resolve them, all of the sudden you got no narratives, and hard to get out there and get the votes.

N583JB wrote:

And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

What I will ask for you is, if you don't wish to move on in your life, what are you proposing?...

I really hope you don't tell me if moving on is not an option, but trying to change history is, because its impossible to go back and change history. Moving on what should this society do to change things?

As I stated early in the thread, the solution is for everyone to be treated by institutions in the same way. Only that’s much harder than it sounds:

Easy - unity will be ours when we make the country’s laws equally enforced and applicable to all. Make treatment of all by LEOs in like situations also the same. Make it so across all jurisdictional, color, and wealth lines. Oh oops...doesn’t sound so easy now huh?

k.

Yes, congress and the WH should work on this. Its a pity that when the democrats were in full control of congress and the WH 2008-2010 this wasn't addressed, as they seem to be the ones more vocal about this, perhaps coming up with real solutions and resolving them would mean it will be hard for them to get votes later on. They need narratives to win elections, if you resolve them, all of the sudden you got no narratives, and hard to get out there and get the votes.

If you think two years is enough to address the three points made, I have a space for a face on Mt. Rushmore to sell you. 44 WH couldn’t even manage to throw anyone from AIG or GS in prison for 2008 because Wall Street shills were covering the wealth angle in both Congress and the WH. The wealthy need the rest of us to be mired in these issues because it keeps attention off what the bad ones amongst them are up to.

Aaron747 wrote:

The wealthy need the rest of us to be mired in these issues because it keeps attention off what the bad ones amongst them are up to.

You couldn't have said it better, these are one of those very strange cases when we can agree to something.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

The wealthy need the rest of us to be mired in these issues because it keeps attention off what the bad ones amongst them are up to.

You couldn't have said it better, these are one of those very strange cases when we can agree to something.

Absolutely - and now you know why a real Californian can sit down for a beer or glass of wine with anyone.

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

They are 14% of the population - it is virtually impossible for the *total* killed in police shootings to be higher. Pop quiz, hot shot: what’s the per capita rate? Your attempt to ‘put things to rest’ is unscientific nonsense.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/ ... ta/595528/

Aaron747 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

They are 14% of the population - it is virtually impossible for the *total* killed in police shootings to be higher. Pop quiz, hot shot: what’s the per capita rate? Your attempt to ‘put things to rest’ is unscientific nonsense.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/ ... ta/595528/

We already discussed the per capita rate...when 14% of the population makes up nearly 50% of known homicide offenders and victims, that 14% is going to have a higher proportion of negative interactions with the police.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

An unarmed person is an unarmed person. Let's just get that out there right now.

But, an unarmed person living their life, jogging, coming home from work, sitting in a park, walking from the store, and being shot because of the color of their skin is happening and people are making excuses and trying to make it seem like it is fine that happens.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

While your claim is technically true, it ignores that fact that there are far more "white" people in the USA than black. Adjusting for population, a black person is 2.5 times more likely to be killed by law enforcement that a white person:


"About 1 in 1,000 black men and boys in America can expect to die at the hands of police, according to a new analysis of deaths involving law enforcement officers. That makes them 2.5 times more likely than white men and boys to die during an encounter with cops.

The analysis also showed that Latino men and boys, black women and girls and Native American men, women and children are also killed by police at higher rates than their white peers. But the vulnerability of black males was particularly striking."


https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2019-08-15/police-shootings-are-a-leading-cause-of-death-for-black-men

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

An unarmed person is an unarmed person. Let's just get that out there right now.

But, an unarmed person living their life, jogging, coming home from work, sitting in a park, walking from the store, and being shot because of the color of their skin is happening and people are making excuses and trying to make it seem like it is fine that happens.

Who is making excuses? Has anyone here said that the death of Ahmaud was anything less than a crime or was somehow justified? I certainly haven't seen it, but maybe you are reading a different board.

alfa164 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

While your claim is technically true, it ignores that fact that there are far more "white" people in the USA than black. Adjusting for population, a black person is 2.5 times more likely to be killed by law enforcement that a white person:


"About 1 in 1,000 black men and boys in America can expect to die at the hands of police, according to a new analysis of deaths involving law enforcement officers. That makes them 2.5 times more likely than white men and boys to die during an encounter with cops.

The analysis also showed that Latino men and boys, black women and girls and Native American men, women and children are also killed by police at higher rates than their white peers. But the vulnerability of black males was particularly striking."


https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2019-08-15/police-shootings-are-a-leading-cause-of-death-for-black-men

This is true, but when that same 14% of the population makes up nearly 50% of all known homicide suspects and victims, it is also not surprising. More violent crime and more violence in general leads to an increased probability of violent interactions with the police.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... s/table-43

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

An unarmed person is an unarmed person. Let's just get that out there right now.

But, an unarmed person living their life, jogging, coming home from work, sitting in a park, walking from the store, and being shot because of the color of their skin is happening and people are making excuses and trying to make it seem like it is fine that happens.

Who is making excuses? Has anyone here said that the death of Ahmaud was anything less than a crime or was somehow justified? I certainly haven't seen it, but maybe you are reading a different board.

People get shot all the time and Blacks are only a portion of the population. Literally all of your posts are excuses.

Ahmaud was unarmed. He was not in possession of any stolen property. He was fleeing his attackers. This happened months ago. Look at the facts of this case instead of justifying statistics.

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

An unarmed person is an unarmed person. Let's just get that out there right now.

But, an unarmed person living their life, jogging, coming home from work, sitting in a park, walking from the store, and being shot because of the color of their skin is happening and people are making excuses and trying to make it seem like it is fine that happens.

Who is making excuses? Has anyone here said that the death of Ahmaud was anything less than a crime or was somehow justified? I certainly haven't seen it, but maybe you are reading a different board.

People get shot all the time and Blacks are only a portion of the population. Literally all of your posts are excuses.

Ahmaud was unarmed. He was not in possession of any stolen property. He was fleeing his attackers. This happened months ago. Look at the facts of this case instead of justifying statistics.

Once again, no one is arguing that Ahmaud deserved to be shot or even pursued. What happened to Ahmaud was clearly a travesty. Not sure who you are arguing with here but it certainly isn't me.

mad99 wrote:

So what do you do? You’re out for a run and suddenly you’re approached by two armed rednecks. Keep running knowing that these guys won’t keep up. Stop and talk to them. Attack them!

It’s probably not going to end well when two people fight over a gun.

They chased him down in a truck, how could he flee from a vehicle? He probably shouldn’t have had a tousle with the gun owning rednecks, that’s what sealed his fate. If I was him I would have stopped and let them call the cops and wait for the police to sort it out.

Kiwirob wrote:

mad99 wrote:

So what do you do? You’re out for a run and suddenly you’re approached by two armed rednecks. Keep running knowing that these guys won’t keep up. Stop and talk to them. Attack them!

It’s probably not going to end well when two people fight over a gun.

They chased him down in a truck, how could he flee from a vehicle? He probably shouldn’t have had a tousle with the gun owning rednecks, that’s what sealed his fate. If I was him I would have stopped and let them call the cops and wait for the police to sort it out.

Logic can often go right out the window in such circumstances. "Fight or flight" is actually more like "fight, flight, or freeze". When your life is at risk it is hard to know which option your body will choose. Ahmaud chose to fight....in hindsight maybe "freeze" or "flight" would have been better, but it is hard to blame him when we haven't been in his shoes.

Kiwirob wrote:

mad99 wrote:

So what do you do? You’re out for a run and suddenly you’re approached by two armed rednecks. Keep running knowing that these guys won’t keep up. Stop and talk to them. Attack them!

It’s probably not going to end well when two people fight over a gun.

They chased him down in a truck, how could he flee from a vehicle? He probably shouldn’t have had a tousle with the gun owning rednecks, that’s what sealed his fate. If I was him I would have stopped and let them call the cops and wait for the police to sort it out.

Most people are afraid of someone with a gun, well a redneck or criminal with a gun and that’s maybe what the redneck thought. Being attacked By an unarmed person when holding a gun only happens in films

N583JB wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

mad99 wrote:

So what do you do? You’re out for a run and suddenly you’re approached by two armed rednecks. Keep running knowing that these guys won’t keep up. Stop and talk to them. Attack them!

It’s probably not going to end well when two people fight over a gun.

They chased him down in a truck, how could he flee from a vehicle? He probably shouldn’t have had a tousle with the gun owning rednecks, that’s what sealed his fate. If I was him I would have stopped and let them call the cops and wait for the police to sort it out.

Logic can often go right out the window in such circumstances. "Fight or flight" is actually more like "fight, flight, or freeze". When your life is at risk it is hard to know which option your body will choose. Ahmaud chose to fight....in hindsight maybe "freeze" or "flight" would have been better, but it is hard to blame him when we haven't been in his shoes.

True and what if the redneck said prepare to die seconds before. His choices are stand and die or fight to live.

Well the person who leaked the video came forth: A supposed friend of the McMichaels, who thought releasing it would settle the issue and their innocence.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawyer-says- ... 2-suspects
I swear people seem to only be able to view things as if "they're good guys, why would you run or fight back?". Everyone has been making excuses for the McMichaels and why the killing was justifiable. Obviously this lawyer friend only saw it that way. Why aren't these same people looking at how it is NOT justifiable? And now many of those looking for this to be justifiable are complaining about those that are seeing the "not side" are speaking up. What the "not" people are saying us not the problem.... I will repeat what I have said up thread: The problem.. the only problem is that someone was killed and no action was taken. That is where everything starts and must end. You address that and you address the follow on problems and resond to people fairly.

Kiwirob wrote:

mad99 wrote:

So what do you do? You’re out for a run and suddenly you’re approached by two armed rednecks. Keep running knowing that these guys won’t keep up. Stop and talk to them. Attack them!

It’s probably not going to end well when two people fight over a gun.

They chased him down in a truck, how could he flee from a vehicle? He probably shouldn’t have had a tousle with the gun owning rednecks, that’s what sealed his fate. If I was him I would have stopped and let them call the cops and wait for the police to sort it out.

They are going to KILL you! That is why they are coming after you. And you would stand their and wait for that? OK...

Now many defenders here will complain loudly at that, "They weren't going to kill him, they were just going to detain him. Why do you inflame things like that?! YOU are the problem!" Except... none of us were inside Ahmaud's head, and I can only go with what I think, and I think that if I have two armed black people chasing after me in a truck, yelling, I am going to probably die, and I don't want to do ANYTHING they say, I want to get the hell away.

And you would think differently? You would stand and wait for two (three?) armed people driving crazy in a truck to come up to you? To kill you? (Or what do you think they want to do?)

Tugg

People need to stop perpetuating the myth of being unarmed. Being unarmed is not case law and absent in law books. Deadly force can be enacted upon someone who is unarmed. The media likes the term unarmed because it helps make a story more provocative. Plenty of cases where deadly force was used legally against unarmed individuals. However being armed is a term used commonly in statutory language. This post is not about the case at hand, but rather a general response to use of the term “unarmed.”

seb146 wrote:

But, an unarmed person living their life, jogging, coming home from work, sitting in a park, walking from the store, and being shot because of the color of their skin is happening and people are making excuses and trying to make it seem like it is fine that happens.

Who has said that? I have asked you time and time again to provide proof of these outlandish statements you make. Nobody here has said what you claim I mean you just make this up? Come on it's just a rant and it's basically saying you feel all white people are racist. Can we stop with this? If you are going to make a charge that anyone here thinks its fine to kill someone simply for there skin color can you at least make sure it happened and provide the statement?

Tugger wrote:

The problem.. the only problem is that someone was killed and no action was taken. That is where everything starts and must end. You address that and you address the follow on problems and resond to people fairly.

The initial lack of prosecution might have been predicted if we had all known the history of this prosecutor in Redneck County, Georgia (or whatever the county name actually was):

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... a=taps_top

omg, the level of mental gymnastics in this thread to downplay / eliminate the obvious racisim in the USA.

I cannot beleive, someone who claims to be a minority actually says that if you speak to African Americans that many will not complain about racism. I AM FLABBERGASTED

Is there a way to block posters on here? I have a headache reading this thread.

I think we should have a ignore feature, where we don't have to see particular posters post. unfortunately, they are the ones who find the time to post endlessly.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:

I think we should have a ignore feature, where we don't have to see particular posters post. unfortunately, they are the ones who find the time to post endlessly.

It's right there, on your User Control Panel page. You can select "Foes" and you will no longer see their posts (but you will see them quoted if someone else replies to one of their posts).

ucp.php?i=ucp_zebra&mode=foes

NIKV69 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

But, an unarmed person living their life, jogging, coming home from work, sitting in a park, walking from the store, and being shot because of the color of their skin is happening and people are making excuses and trying to make it seem like it is fine that happens.

Who has said that? I have asked you time and time again to provide proof of these outlandish statements you make. Nobody here has said what you claim I mean you just make this up? Come on it's just a rant and it's basically saying you feel all white people are racist. Can we stop with this? If you are going to make a charge that anyone here thinks its fine to kill someone simply for there skin color can you at least make sure it happened and provide the statement?

Here as well as all over the interwebs people are blaming Arbery. "He should not have been stealing things" (he had nothing on him to indicate he stole anything) "he should not have been in that neighborhood" (he lived in the area) "there were burglaries in the area so people were suspicious" (casual racism) and on and on the victim blaming goes.

Oh, and let's not forget that it took months for the two men to be arrested and charged.

scbriml wrote:

DLFREEBIRD wrote:

I think we should have a ignore feature, where we don't have to see particular posters post. unfortunately, they are the ones who find the time to post endlessly.

It's right there, on your User Control Panel page. You can select "Foes" and you will no longer see their posts (but you will see them quoted if someone else replies to one of their posts).

ucp.php?i=ucp_zebra&mode=foes

thanks, i'm going to do that right now.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

Imagine thinking this is a good justification

I'm not trying to "justify" anything....just putting a tired narrative to rest.

Of course it's a justification. Have the "blue/all lives matter" scumbags ever, you know, tried to make all lives matter? In any way whatsoever? Seriously...is there any foundation or group related to those astroturf exercises that is trying to reduce deaths?

Tugger wrote:

Well the person who leaked the video came forth: A supposed friend of the McMichaels, who thought releasing it would settle the issue and their innocence.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawyer-says- ... 2-suspects
I swear people seem to only be able to view things as if "they're good guys, why would you run or fight back?". Everyone has been making excuses for the McMichaels and why the killing was justifiable. Obviously this lawyer friend only saw it that way. Why aren't these same people looking at how it is NOT justifiable? And now many of those looking for this to be justifiable are complaining about those that are seeing the "not side" are speaking up. What the "not" people are saying us not the problem.... I will repeat what I have said up thread: The problem.. the only problem is that someone was killed and no action was taken. That is where everything starts and must end. You address that and you address the follow on problems and resond to people fairly.

Kiwirob wrote:

mad99 wrote:

So what do you do? You’re out for a run and suddenly you’re approached by two armed rednecks. Keep running knowing that these guys won’t keep up. Stop and talk to them. Attack them!

It’s probably not going to end well when two people fight over a gun.

They chased him down in a truck, how could he flee from a vehicle? He probably shouldn’t have had a tousle with the gun owning rednecks, that’s what sealed his fate. If I was him I would have stopped and let them call the cops and wait for the police to sort it out.

They are going to KILL you! That is why they are coming after you. And you would stand their and wait for that? OK...

Now many defenders here will complain loudly at that, "They weren't going to kill him, they were just going to detain him. Why do you inflame things like that?! YOU are the problem!" Except... none of us were inside Ahmaud's head, and I can only go with what I think, and I think that if I have two armed black people chasing after me in a truck, yelling, I am going to probably die, and I don't want to do ANYTHING they say, I want to get the hell away.

And you would think differently? You would stand and wait for two (three?) armed people driving crazy in a truck to come up to you? To kill you? (Or what do you think they want to do?)

Tugg

You don’t know what they were going to do! Maybe they would have killed him maybe they wouldn’t, but IMO he sealed his fate by fighting back.

FWIW I haven't talked to a single person, conservative or liberal, who isn't outraged by this and think the McMichaels acted anything other than outrageously.