In what looks to me like a blatant case of murder, Ahmaud Arbery was an unarmed black man who was out for a jog one morning when he was chased down by two white men in a truck, who confronted the man and then shot him dead. Video of this incident has gone viral, and this is a very sad situation as the Black Community is furious (And rightly so) over this. Here is a link to CNN's coverage of the incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-demands-justice/index.html

The two white men were a father and son duo who used to work for the District Attorney who would be responsible for pressing charges in the case. (So far no charges have been filed, but a grand jury has been put together to investigate) Their explanations were that they suspected Arbery was involved in a string of burglaries and so they went to check on the situation and the shooting was in self defense.

I personally don't buy the explanation from Greg McMichael (One of the suspects in the case). First of all, by their own admission they spotted him, then armed themselves and went after them. This makes no sense to me. One, with their ties to law enforcement, why would they not report the guy to law enforcement rather than try to be vigilantes? Two, the video made it obvious that they were determined to go after this guy no matter what. Thirdly, nothing in the video shows Arbery attacking the McMichaels as they are purporting.

My last thing on this is this? What is it going to take for Black Men to be able to run around and not live in fear? If you are black in this country, you are automatically a suspect and it is on you to prove that you are not harmful? There is an implicit bias in this country toward Black men, and it makes me sick to my stomach. I don't know what the solution is to this, but its an issue that has gotten worse in recent years, and needs to be solved.

Based on first assumptions (and I will gladly change my opinion if more facts come to light), it seems absolutely ridiculous. Even if he was the local robber the suspects were talking about (which seems dubious) you don't get to just shoot him down, there is a due process that he, as an American, gets. That's the difference between the USA and a dictatorship in theory.

Seems like a clear cut case. The explanations don’t make any sense, at least from what I’ve seen. Really sad all around.

What’s really sad is GA has made tattoo parlors essential while the grand jury process has been sitting on its ass for three months on this - no thanks to the apparently conflicted DA. These two need to be on trial for murder pronto.

Aaron747 wrote:

What’s really sad is GA has made tattoo parlors essential while the grand jury process has been sitting on its ass for three months on this - no thanks to the apparently conflicted DA. These two need to be on trial for murder pronto.

What I see of “stamp tramps”, the parlors are essential or the millennials couldn’t show how “different” they are while conforming slavishly.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

What’s really sad is GA has made tattoo parlors essential while the grand jury process has been sitting on its ass for three months on this - no thanks to the apparently conflicted DA. These two need to be on trial for murder pronto.

What I see of “stamp tramps”, the parlors are essential or the millennials couldn’t show how “different” they are while conforming slavishly.

Trash is trash, regardless of political stripes. And way off-point, but at least you called it murder.

Seems like a murder to me, but I worry that the men involved may get off on a technicality because the video shows Ahmaud rushing the guy with the shotgun (I probably would have done the same thing in Ahmaud's situation). My best guess is that they indict on a lesser charge like manslaughter so that they can get guaranteed jail time as opposed to indicting on murder charges and risking an acquittal.

With regard to the last part of your post, I don't believe that black men live in fear in this country any more than any other group of people. What happened to Ahmaud seems like a senseless murder but there are senseless murders every day and only a select few are chosen by the media to be sent to the masses for outrage. Ten years ago it was "pretty white girl" syndrome meant to push fear to the masses, and now it is "race-driven violence" that sells.

N583JB wrote:

Seems like a murder to me, but I worry that the men involved may get off on a technicality because the video shows Ahmaud rushing the guy with the shotgun (I probably would have done the same thing in Ahmaud's situation). My best guess is that they indict on a lesser charge like manslaughter so that they can get guaranteed jail time as opposed to indicting on murder charges and risking an acquittal.

With regard to the last part of your post, I don't believe that black men live in fear in this country any more than any other group of people. What happened to Ahmaud seems like a senseless murder but there are senseless murders every day and only a select few are chosen by the media to be sent to the masses for outrage. Ten years ago it was "pretty white girl" syndrome meant to push fear to the masses, and now it is "race-driven violence" that sells.

Mostly agree here - though to tie in with GF’s point, this is newsworthy because it will be taken by some as a modern-day lynching, whilst black-on-black murders in Detroit are not a rarity. The media is definitely unhelpful and still plays favorites with ‘pretty girl’ cases - for example, lots of coverage of Kate Steinle, yet very little outside CA for rookie cop Natalie Corona.

Give them a fair trial, and the hang them!

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Funny, when a black man in Detroit last week murdered a black security guard over his daughter not wearing a mask, crickets. White dudes murders black man—big news.

This is a misunderstanding of the context that I see repeated so often that it has to be deliberate on somebody's part. What raises peoples' ire is not just that a black man was murdered, it's that there's a decades-long pattern of the justice system treating white people who murder black men differently from black people who do the same.

They should investigate the DA who knows these killers, and bring all of them to justice.

Having said that, its time to stop making everything about racism, that only divides not unifies the country. Lebron James tweet that black men are being hunted every day, that doesn't help at all.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Having said that, its time to stop making everything about racism, that only divides not unifies the country.

Easy - unity will be ours when we make the country’s laws equally enforced and applicable to all. Make treatment of all by LEOs in like situations also the same. Make it so across all jurisdictional, color, and wealth lines. Oh oops...doesn’t sound so easy now huh?

Aaron747 wrote:

What’s really sad is GA has made tattoo parlors essential while the grand jury process has been sitting on its ass for three months on this - no thanks to the apparently conflicted DA. These two need to be on trial for murder pronto.

They have just been arrested for murder. It won't go to trial, they will likely cut a deal.

Newark727 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Funny, when a black man in Detroit last week murdered a black security guard over his daughter not wearing a mask, crickets. White dudes murders black man—big news.

This is a misunderstanding of the context that I see repeated so often that it has to be deliberate on somebody's part. What raises peoples' ire is not just that a black man was murdered, it's that there's a decades-long pattern of the justice system treating white people who murder black men differently from black people who do the same.

1. It was headlines around here.
2. It was in Flint, not Detroit.

N583JB wrote:

Seems like a murder to me, but I worry that the men involved may get off on a technicality because the video shows Ahmaud rushing the guy with the shotgun (I probably would have done the same thing in Ahmaud's situation). My best guess is that they indict on a lesser charge like manslaughter so that they can get guaranteed jail time as opposed to indicting on murder charges and risking an acquittal.

Yes, manslaughter at the very least. I generally try to keep a more even keel these days when it comes to "gotcha" videos surfacing in light of what happened with the Covington Catholic incident last year, but by their own accounts these guys took it upon themselves to be vigilantes and take armed pursuit of Ahmaud. They do not get to do that, they're not cops, they were wrong from the outset.

NIKV69 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

What’s really sad is GA has made tattoo parlors essential while the grand jury process has been sitting on its ass for three months on this - no thanks to the apparently conflicted DA. These two need to be on trial for murder pronto.

They have just been arrested for murder. It won't go to trial, they will likely cut a deal.

Of course. They were White men keeping track of a Black man. They should cut a deal and not go to trial. Right? All lives matter right? An unarmed Black man with zero evidence he committed any crime is gunned down so let the armed to the teeth White guys go free. Nothing racist about that, right? An unarmed Black man jogging by a construction site. All lives matter, after all.

These are the same excuses I see around here. Oh, well.... s/he has a problem.... Oh, well.... s/he is special.... Oh, well.... that's just him/her.... Guess what it is when these righties see a minority?

But all lives matter. When will that actually kick in?

Two white men in the US south, leaping out of a pickup truck and shooting an innocent, unarmed black man.
Not racism? It's a tradition FFS!
And one of them knew a DA so, with some justification based on history and precedent, thought they'd get away with it.
Hopefully it will be 1st degree murder.
As it would be in any civilized state or nation.
(One thing the mass use of phone cameras has done is expose so many incidents like this).

Newark727 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Funny, when a black man in Detroit last week murdered a black security guard over his daughter not wearing a mask, crickets. White dudes murders black man—big news.

This is a misunderstanding of the context that I see repeated so often that it has to be deliberate on somebody's part. What raises peoples' ire is not just that a black man was murdered, it's that there's a decades-long pattern of the justice system treating white people who murder black men differently from black people who do the same.

A difference that’s too subtle for some.

Out of interest, that killing made the news in the UK, so hardly crickets.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Lebron James tweet that black men are being hunted every day, that doesn't help at all.

How is the truth unhelpful?

Allowing armed citizens to arrest other citizens. What could possibly go wrong?

apodino wrote:

In what looks to me like a blatant case of murder, Ahmaud Arbery was an unarmed black man who was out for a jog one morning when he was chased down by two white men in a truck, who confronted the man and then shot him dead. Video of this incident has gone viral, and this is a very sad situation as the Black Community is furious (And rightly so) over this. Here is a link to CNN's coverage of the incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-demands-justice/index.html

We discuss on this site often about stand-your-ground/Castle Doctrine cases. This one is simple: case does not pass it. They intentionally chased after the jogger after the jogger ran off. You're not standing your ground or protecting your castle if the suspect (innocent in this case) runs off.

scbriml wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Funny, when a black man in Detroit last week murdered a black security guard over his daughter not wearing a mask, crickets. White dudes murders black man—big news.

This is a misunderstanding of the context that I see repeated so often that it has to be deliberate on somebody's part. What raises peoples' ire is not just that a black man was murdered, it's that there's a decades-long pattern of the justice system treating white people who murder black men differently from black people who do the same.

A difference that’s too subtle for some.

Out of interest, that killing made the news in the UK, so hardly crickets.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Lebron James tweet that black men are being hunted every day, that doesn't help at all.

How is the truth unhelpful?

Do you have any evidence that black men are being "hunted every day"? Hyperbole and sensationalism are harmful, as are false narrarives.

phatfarmlines wrote:

apodino wrote:

In what looks to me like a blatant case of murder, Ahmaud Arbery was an unarmed black man who was out for a jog one morning when he was chased down by two white men in a truck, who confronted the man and then shot him dead. Video of this incident has gone viral, and this is a very sad situation as the Black Community is furious (And rightly so) over this. Here is a link to CNN's coverage of the incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/us/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-demands-justice/index.html

We discuss on this site often about stand-your-ground/Castle Doctrine cases. This one is simple: case does not pass it. They intentionally chased after the jogger after the jogger ran off. You're not standing your ground or protecting your castle if the suspect (innocent in this case) runs off.

The McMichaels will claim that this was a citizen's arrest gone wrong. That they were not doing anything illegal, chasing after a "suspect", weapons in hand. That the shooting was in self defense after being attacked.

They almost got away with it, and they still may.

scbriml wrote:

How is the truth unhelpful?

If you ever look back to those who really cared about racism, equal rights and justice, like Mandela or MLK. In the position of power and influence they had, they never made victims out of those who suffered racism, nor made perpetrators out of those who acted out of racism.

The endgame here with those who make everything about racism, sexism, etc, is dividing society between victims and oppressors. Societies that are divided between victims and oppressors they usually end up being more divided and more fractured in the long run.

20th century has many cases of how it ends when you divide things like that. Interestingly those who complain the most about racism are white liberal elites, celebrities and politicians. If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

How is the truth unhelpful?

If you ever look back to those who really cared about racism, equal rights and justice, like Mandela or MLK. In the position of power and influence they had, they never made victims out of those who suffered racism, nor made perpetrators out of those who acted out of racism.

The endgame here with those who make everything about racism, sexism, etc, is dividing society between victims and oppressors. Societies that are divided between victims and oppressors they usually end up being more divided and more fractured in the long run.

20th century has many cases of how it ends when you divide things like that. Interestingly those who complain the most about racism are white liberal elites, celebrities and politicians. If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

Do you have any clue what happened in the 20th Century?

Do you have any people that actually work with other people? The race card is always thrown out there, because there are countless racists present in modern society still. There are lots of people that still judge by the color of skin rather than the content of character. To pretend otherwise is to fall into one of the biggest lies within modern society.

casinterest wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

scbriml wrote:

How is the truth unhelpful?

If you ever look back to those who really cared about racism, equal rights and justice, like Mandela or MLK. In the position of power and influence they had, they never made victims out of those who suffered racism, nor made perpetrators out of those who acted out of racism.

The endgame here with those who make everything about racism, sexism, etc, is dividing society between victims and oppressors. Societies that are divided between victims and oppressors they usually end up being more divided and more fractured in the long run.

20th century has many cases of how it ends when you divide things like that. Interestingly those who complain the most about racism are white liberal elites, celebrities and politicians. If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

Do you have any clue what happened in the 20th Century?

Do you have any people that actually work with other people? The race card is always thrown out there, because there are countless racists present in modern society still. There are lots of people that still judge by the color of skin rather than the content of character. To pretend otherwise is to fall into one of the biggest lies within modern society.

Yeah, millions were killed when people began dividing between victims and oppressors. That's what happened.

And where have I said there is no racism? there is racism everywhere in the world not exclusively in the US or in the south of the US, the point is why make it everything about racism. I am of Latino origin, I have of course had my share of racism, I can say more outside than the US than in the US, but nonetheless why make it all about racism? sexism? etc? There is no endgame here with this saying "black men are being hunted every day", it only creates more divisions and resentment in society, doesn't help.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

If you ever look back to those who really cared about racism, equal rights and justice, like Mandela or MLK. In the position of power and influence they had, they never made victims out of those who suffered racism, nor made perpetrators out of those who acted out of racism.

The endgame here with those who make everything about racism, sexism, etc, is dividing society between victims and oppressors. Societies that are divided between victims and oppressors they usually end up being more divided and more fractured in the long run.

20th century has many cases of how it ends when you divide things like that. Interestingly those who complain the most about racism are white liberal elites, celebrities and politicians. If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

Do you have any clue what happened in the 20th Century?

Do you have any people that actually work with other people? The race card is always thrown out there, because there are countless racists present in modern society still. There are lots of people that still judge by the color of skin rather than the content of character. To pretend otherwise is to fall into one of the biggest lies within modern society.

Yeah, millions were killed when people began dividing between victims and oppressors. That's what happened.

And where have I said there is no racism? there is racism everywhere in the world not exclusively in the US or in the south of the US, the point is why make it everything about racism. I am of Latino origin, I have of course had my share of racism, I can say more outside than the US than in the US, but nonetheless why make it all about racism? sexism? etc? There is no endgame here with this saying "black men are being hunted every day", it only creates more divisions and resentment in society, doesn't help.

And with victims and "Oppressors" as you so elegantly put it. Who do you think created the divide? The key word is in your statement.

The issue is those with entitlement that use those items of race,sex, skin color, as weapons. Oppressors usually pick the line and go from there.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Having said that, its time to stop making everything about racism, that only divides not unifies the country.

If the situation had been reversed (two Black men chasing down a White jogger), there would not have been a need for a video to come out to show what happened because by this point, the two men would have likely been arrested and charged with a crime, facing the death penalty.

Everything will stop being about racism when we stop wondering about how the situation might have gone down if the races had been reversed, not because we don't care anymore, but because race will be irrelevant to the case, because race will not play a factor in how suspects are treated, and justice will be served no matter what.

As long as we have a system where a White man is treated as if they were a VIP and gets off with more lenient punishment than a non-White, we can only conclude that racism still factors not only in the motive but also in how justice is served.

Here's how I predict this will go down:

They'll be charged with murder. Prosecution will seek the maximum penalty. Defense will plead the case with a "stand your ground, feared for their life" excuse. And through the wonders of our spotless justice system, they will walk free (even in the face of a video and admission).

N583JB wrote:

Do you have any evidence that black men are being "hunted every day"? Hyperbole and sensationalism are harmful, as are false narrarives.

This case is literally about a black man being hunted and killed. In 2020. Lebron may have exaggerated, but that doesn't change the case.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

If you really talk to African American's many of them won't complain about the US being racist and evil as those say it is, they are hard working people who want to move on and stop being labeled as members of a victim group.

Spoken from a non-black perspective. Many more blacks will complain with justification.

casinterest wrote:

And with victims and "Oppressors" as you so elegantly put it. Who do you think created the divide? The key word is in your statement.

How different would this thread be if two black men chased an unarmed white man out jogging, then shot him?

einsteinboricua wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Having said that, its time to stop making everything about racism, that only divides not unifies the country.

If the situation had been reversed (two Black men chasing down a White jogger), there would not have been a need for a video to come out to show what happened because by this point, the two men would have likely been arrested and charged with a crime, facing the death penalty.

Everything will stop being about racism when we stop wondering about how the situation might have gone down if the races had been reversed, not because we don't care anymore, but because race will be irrelevant to the case, because race will not play a factor in how suspects are treated, and justice will be served no matter what.

As long as we have a system where a White man is treated as if they were a VIP and gets off with more lenient punishment than a non-White, we can only conclude that racism still factors not only in the motive but also in how justice is served.

Here's how I predict this will go down:

They'll be charged with murder. Prosecution will seek the maximum penalty. Defense will plead the case with a "stand your ground, feared for their life" excuse. And through the wonders of our spotless justice system, they will walk free (even in the face of a video and admission).

Partly agree with you, however, do you know how much black on white crime/killings/shootings happens daily in this country or black on black, or white on white? do we get outraged for every each of them?

Certainly this case merits outrage, and there is a racist undertone to it, no doubt. But if you are able to find one law in Georgia that is made purposely against African Americans, and in favor of whites, the point you make about being reversed is worth the discussion. But there isn't such laws, in the US there isn't the first law that says African Americans should be found more guilty than whites. There is of course law enforcement individuals that would use harsher penalties to individuals of certain races or demographics, because of course these are people, who use their bad judgment and bad faith to apply harsher sentences. Yes we might find a case or two every month or two, but that doesn't make the US a racist country as it has been painted.

Again up in this thread the example of the black security guard that killed the black woman over putting a mask, that's an example, but it did not get the same level of outrage. Had it been a white security guard, perhaps it would. That's what making everything about race comes to. Certain crimes are worse than others because they have a certain racist undertone to it. All crimes are bad, those made by whites towards whites, black towards black, white towards blacks, or blacks towards white. End of story.

In any case, if anything the mentality needs to change, a black man, latino etc jogging is not cause to go after him or her just because you assume he did something wrong. But you can't tell black kids don't go out running because someone is going to hunt you and kill you. What's the point in that?

scbriml wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Do you have any evidence that black men are being "hunted every day"? Hyperbole and sensationalism are harmful, as are false narrarives.

This case is literally about a black man being hunted and killed. In 2020. Lebron may have exaggerated, but that doesn't change the case.

You are right that this case is about a man being hunted and killed, but Lebron said that this happens "every day". That is quite the exaggeration. Perhaps Lebron should take a page out of his own book and only comment on things that he knows about.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Partly agree with you, however, do you know how much black on white crime/killings/shootings happens daily in this country or black on black, or white on white? do we get outraged for every each of them?

Irrelevant in this case. That's whataboutism. A Black person invading the home of another person (regardless of race) is just as bad as a White person invading the home of another person (regardless of race). A Black person shooting someone else should merit as much outrage as a White person shooting someone else. The outrage here isn't these color on color crimes; it's how they're processed and how they'll set a precedent for future cases. It's fact that Blacks are convicted and given harsher sentences for the same crimes that Whites commit. It's also fact that even in the face of overwhelming evidence that suggests a White person's intentions were criminal, they'll be let off easier than a Black person where the evidence is inconclusive.

In this case, the outrage stems from two White men making wrong assumptions and setting up to kill the guy (he jogged past their place and they found time to arm themselves and follow him, just because "he looked suspicious") and a justice system that didn't catch this until video evidence emerged, and that based on previous cases, will let them go easily.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Certainly this case merits outrage, and there is a racist undertone to it, no doubt. But if you are able to find one law in Georgia that is made purposely against African Americans, and in favor of whites, the point you make about being reversed is worth the discussion. But there isn't such laws, in the US there isn't the first law that says African Americans should be found more guilty than whites.

In theory, laws are meant to be universal among everyone. In practice, there seems to be enough wiggle room to allow some people to benefit more than others. While there is no law that mandates that Blacks should be found more guilty than others, there is also no law that mandates a jury be made of demographics that match the area (a jury of peers, but SOME peers may be over-represented). In the South, many juries are almost all White (even if the place where the crime took place is Black majority); such juries can be racially biased and allow a White person to walk free while handing down severe punishments to a Black.

So while there is no law that is made against Blacks, there are also very few safeguards against a system already biased against them.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

There is of course law enforcement individuals that would use harsher penalties to individuals of certain races or demographics, because of course these are people, who use their bad judgment and bad faith to apply harsher sentences. Yes we might find a case or two every month or two, but that doesn't make the US a racist country as it has been painted.

Saying that the US is racist is generalizing, but we shouldn't put on rose-colored glasses and pretend that everything is fine.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Again up in this thread the example of the black security guard that killed the black woman over putting a mask, that's an example, but it did not get the same level of outrage. Had it been a white security guard, perhaps it would. That's what making everything about race comes to. Certain crimes are worse than others because they have a certain racist undertone to it. All crimes are bad, those made by whites towards whites, black towards black, white towards blacks, or blacks towards white. End of story.

Did the Black security officer kill the Black woman because she was Black? Because she was a woman? If the answer is "no" to both, that explains why it didn't cause as much outrage (excessive use of force, sure, but there's no sexist or racist motive behind it).

AirWorthy99 wrote:

In any case, if anything the mentality needs to change, a black man, latino etc jogging is not cause to go after him or her just because you assume he did something wrong. But you can't tell black kids don't go out running because someone is going to hunt you and kill you. What's the point in that?

I'm willing to bet that a lot of people, growing up, their main concern when going out for a run or bike ride was always to watch out for traffic (with suspicious characters coming in second). Not once would it have crossed their minds to "watch out for (person of X race)". Maybe in the South, such a suspicion towards Black was the norm during segregation, but seems things are coming back...only it's non-Whites being suspicious of Whites BECAUSE of potential White suspicions about them.

einsteinboricua wrote:

In theory, laws are meant to be universal among everyone. In practice, there seems to be enough wiggle room to allow some people to benefit more than others. While there is no law that mandates that Blacks should be found more guilty than others, there is also no law that mandates a jury be made of demographics that match the area (a jury of peers, but SOME peers may be over-represented). In the South, many juries are almost all White (even if the place where the crime took place is Black majority); such juries can be racially biased and allow a White person to walk free while handing down severe punishments to a Black.

So while there is no law that is made against Blacks, there are also very few safeguards against a system already biased against them.

Don't know about Georgia but I served jury duty here in Florida. And on the jury selection both the DA and the defense of the accused had their chance to question those who would eventually serve in the jury before the trial commenced. I was selected for a murder case, and I was asked about my opinion on certain things. I did not hide my beliefs on certain topics, and I was asked by the defense to be taken away from the jury. The ultimate decision is by the judge, but I highly doubt the defense will ever accept a jury that is biased against a defendant even when is a public defender (free lawyer) as the one I was on. The point of all the process is a fair trial. And I am sure in Georgia it can be possible or any other state it may be certainly possible in 2020.

This should be a relatively easy case for the prosecution. Was there reasonable suspicion that criminal activity was afoot? A man jogging alone does not meet that level of proof. Was there probable cause that criminal activity had just occurred or was occurring? The totality of the circumstances does not favor the accused at all. Whether it was racially motivated or just over aggressive vigilantism, the facts and circumstances known do not provide enough proof to warrant a “citizens” arrest. A simple call to local law enforcement for suspicious activity and someone in the area matching the physical description of a recent burglar would even be questionable. Unfortunately from a law enforcement perspective we cannot control who calls the police and the information we get from callers. Eyewitness accounts can be horribly inaccurate. Given the information available to the public, the accused appear to have acted inappropriately and should be prosecuted justly. I believe the facts and circumstances will lead to homicide convictions. I don’t know GA homicide statutes, but given the actions of the accused, premeditated homicide is probably the route we will see. Then again there is no transparency within the prosecution in the US. Prosecutors do not have to disclose what charges they chose to file or not. Law enforcement is bound by very strict rules, procedures, and policies. But I usually joke about the courts and say “welcome to the courts where the rules are made up and the points don’t count.”

StarAC17 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Seems like a murder to me, but I worry that the men involved may get off on a technicality because the video shows Ahmaud rushing the guy with the shotgun (I probably would have done the same thing in Ahmaud's situation). My best guess is that they indict on a lesser charge like manslaughter so that they can get guaranteed jail time as opposed to indicting on murder charges and risking an acquittal.

With regard to the last part of your post, I don't believe that black men live in fear in this country any more than any other group of people. What happened to Ahmaud seems like a senseless murder but there are senseless murders every day and only a select few are chosen by the media to be sent to the masses for outrage. Ten years ago it was "pretty white girl" syndrome meant to push fear to the masses, and now it is "race-driven violence" that sells.

I think the same, this could very well potentially go very much like the George Zimmerman case in 2013.

To your second point, I think they certainly do in a lot of cases black men have a fear of authority that white men do not. It probably isn't a constant paranoia but their approach to law enforcement is definitely different than that of other races.

All you need to know is white nationalist militia men armed to the nips walked into state capitols and frothed at law enforcement and were untouched. Tamir Rice was shot dead in a park minding his own business with a toy gun. This scene is played over and over every day throughout the country.

MaverickM11 wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Seems like a murder to me, but I worry that the men involved may get off on a technicality because the video shows Ahmaud rushing the guy with the shotgun (I probably would have done the same thing in Ahmaud's situation). My best guess is that they indict on a lesser charge like manslaughter so that they can get guaranteed jail time as opposed to indicting on murder charges and risking an acquittal.

With regard to the last part of your post, I don't believe that black men live in fear in this country any more than any other group of people. What happened to Ahmaud seems like a senseless murder but there are senseless murders every day and only a select few are chosen by the media to be sent to the masses for outrage. Ten years ago it was "pretty white girl" syndrome meant to push fear to the masses, and now it is "race-driven violence" that sells.

I think the same, this could very well potentially go very much like the George Zimmerman case in 2013.

To your second point, I think they certainly do in a lot of cases black men have a fear of authority that white men do not. It probably isn't a constant paranoia but their approach to law enforcement is definitely different than that of other races.

All you need to know is white nationalist militia men armed to the nips walked into state capitols and frothed at law enforcement and were untouched. Tamir Rice was shot dead in a park minding his own business with a toy gun. This scene is played over and over every day throughout the country.

The thing though is that no two situations are the same. You can't compare apples and cheeseburgers. Tamir Rice was killed largely because of incompetence, IMO. The first problem is that the 911 caller told the 911 calltaker that Rice was pointing a gun at people, and then clarified that "it is probably a toy gun or something". The "toy gun" part was not relayed to responding police officers. So, the officers who were en route to the call only knew that they were being called for someone pointing a gun at people in a park, i.e. what sounded very much like an active shooter situation.

The second piece of incompetence involved the officer who was driving the police cruiser. He drove right up to Rice and placed the officer in the passenger seat essentially face to face with what they were told was an armed gunman with no cover. This left the officer in the passenger seat with zero chance to take a step back or evaluate anything....he was presented with what he believed was a man with a gun directly in front of him and had a split second to react. It is easy to see how this Officer was justifiably in fear for his safety because of the position that his partner put him in. If the officers had taken a better approach, Rice would have had more time to react and the situation probably would have ended peacefully. The shooting of Rice was bad policework, but it did not rise to the level of a crime.

With regard to the armed moronic reopen protesters, nothing about their appearance was a crime. The officers involved had days or potentially even weeks to prepare for these protests. They likely had intelligence from within the specific groups indicating that the protests would be nonviolent. Even so, I can promise you there were snipers and heavily armed SWAT members nearby watching the entire event unfold from a secure position. If any of those militia members had tried to raise their weapon in order to use it, they would have been dropped very quickly.

Also want to clarify another discussion...there was no woman who was shot dead by a security guard for not wearing a mask. Quite the opposite, actually. A security guard was shot dead by the woman's friends after kicking the woman out of the store for not wearing a mask.

scbriml wrote:

How different would this thread be if two black men chased an unarmed white man out jogging, then shot him?

There wouldn't be a thread.

einsteinboricua wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Partly agree with you, however, do you know how much black on white crime/killings/shootings happens daily in this country or black on black, or white on white? do we get outraged for every each of them?

Irrelevant in this case. That's whataboutism. A Black person invading the home of another person (regardless of race) is just as bad as a White person invading the home of another person (regardless of race). A Black person shooting someone else should merit as much outrage as a White person shooting someone else. The outrage here isn't these color on color crimes; it's how they're processed and how they'll set a precedent for future cases. It's fact that Blacks are convicted and given harsher sentences for the same crimes that Whites commit. It's also fact that even in the face of overwhelming evidence that suggests a White person's intentions were criminal, they'll be let off easier than a Black person where the evidence is inconclusive.

In this case, the outrage stems from two White men making wrong assumptions and setting up to kill the guy (he jogged past their place and they found time to arm themselves and follow him, just because "he looked suspicious") and a justice system that didn't catch this until video evidence emerged, and that based on previous cases, will let them go easily.

The other outrage here that drives home the true inequality of blacks and whites before the law is that these racist klansmen scumbags walked free for two months with all their klansmen DA homies just passed on the work cuz what's one more dead [ ]...ain't that right Billy Bob? Meanwhile, the three black people up in Detroit were arrested instantaneously and there warn't even no video of the affair! That's the real difference right there, it's the true value of life our system of justice applies against both victims and perpetrators based on the color of their skin. I hope these two assholes get the federal injection. Anything to encourage the Klan to fulfill their race murder fantasies using target dummies instead of real joggers. Ain't no crime in that I reckon.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

There is no endgame here with this saying "black men are being hunted every day", it only creates more divisions and resentment in society, doesn't help.

How can people have this soooo backwards? Be so blind. The problem is not that " saying "black men are being hunted every day", it only creates more divisions and resentment in society, doesn't help." The problem is people are killing other people for no valid reason and not accepting that race has a lot to do with it and to do with those doing the killing getting off with no criminal consequences.

What really creates more divisions and resentment in society and doesn't help is people like the McMichael's looking for and willing to kill people, and its the two district attorneys who did not act immediately on the case, apparently because they felt the McMichaels were within the law, and these two had seen the video! What doesn't help is people looks for other reasons to attack other things about this case instead of focusing on exactly how ridiculously wrong the chasing down (aka hunting) and murdering of a young man is.

That is where the division is, that is what perpetuate that division.

Tugg

How can an execution be manslaughter?

N583JB wrote:

The thing though is that no two situations are the same. You can't compare apples and cheeseburgers. Tamir Rice was killed largely because of incompetence, IMO. The first problem is that the 911 caller told the 911 calltaker that Rice was pointing a gun at people, and then clarified that "it is probably a toy gun or something". The "toy gun" part was not relayed to responding police officers. So, the officers who were en route to the call only knew that they were being called for someone pointing a gun at people in a park, i.e. what sounded very much like an active shooter situation.

The second piece of incompetence involved the officer who was driving the police cruiser. He drove right up to Rice and placed the officer in the passenger seat essentially face to face with what they were told was an armed gunman with no cover. This left the officer in the passenger seat with zero chance to take a step back or evaluate anything....he was presented with what he believed was a man with a gun directly in front of him and had a split second to react. It is easy to see how this Officer was justifiably in fear for his safety because of the position that his partner put him in. If the officers had taken a better approach, Rice would have had more time to react and the situation probably would have ended peacefully. The shooting of Rice was bad policework, but it did not rise to the level of a crime.

With regard to the armed moronic reopen protesters, nothing about their appearance was a crime. The officers involved had days or potentially even weeks to prepare for these protests. They likely had intelligence from within the specific groups indicating that the protests would be nonviolent. Even so, I can promise you there were snipers and heavily armed SWAT members nearby watching the entire event unfold from a secure position. If any of those militia members had tried to raise their weapon in order to use it, they would have been dropped very quickly.

Groups of White people armed to the teeth walking into government buildings and suffer zero consequences. A child sitting in a park is gunned down. You are right they are not the same at all. A Black man walking through an apartment complex armed with Skittles and a bottle of iced tea gunned down because someone saw him walking. A Black man driving gunned down by police for driving his own damn car. A White female police officer walks into the wrong apartment and shoots a Black man dead who was just sitting in his own apartment.

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

The thing though is that no two situations are the same. You can't compare apples and cheeseburgers. Tamir Rice was killed largely because of incompetence, IMO. The first problem is that the 911 caller told the 911 calltaker that Rice was pointing a gun at people, and then clarified that "it is probably a toy gun or something". The "toy gun" part was not relayed to responding police officers. So, the officers who were en route to the call only knew that they were being called for someone pointing a gun at people in a park, i.e. what sounded very much like an active shooter situation.

The second piece of incompetence involved the officer who was driving the police cruiser. He drove right up to Rice and placed the officer in the passenger seat essentially face to face with what they were told was an armed gunman with no cover. This left the officer in the passenger seat with zero chance to take a step back or evaluate anything....he was presented with what he believed was a man with a gun directly in front of him and had a split second to react. It is easy to see how this Officer was justifiably in fear for his safety because of the position that his partner put him in. If the officers had taken a better approach, Rice would have had more time to react and the situation probably would have ended peacefully. The shooting of Rice was bad policework, but it did not rise to the level of a crime.

With regard to the armed moronic reopen protesters, nothing about their appearance was a crime. The officers involved had days or potentially even weeks to prepare for these protests. They likely had intelligence from within the specific groups indicating that the protests would be nonviolent. Even so, I can promise you there were snipers and heavily armed SWAT members nearby watching the entire event unfold from a secure position. If any of those militia members had tried to raise their weapon in order to use it, they would have been dropped very quickly.

Groups of White people armed to the teeth walking into government buildings and suffer zero consequences. A child sitting in a park is gunned down. You are right they are not the same at all. A Black man walking through an apartment complex armed with Skittles and a bottle of iced tea gunned down because someone saw him walking. A Black man driving gunned down by police for driving his own damn car. A White female police officer walks into the wrong apartment and shoots a Black man dead who was just sitting in his own apartment.

Rice was standing, not sitting, but semantics. And despite all of that, more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

N583JB wrote:

more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

As a percentage of population or raw numbers? Because "more" would be "of course" since there are 5x more "white people" than "blacks" in the USA.

Edited to add:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

And another:
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/ ... ta/595528/

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

N583JB wrote:

more white people are killed by the police each year than black people. The exception is not the norm.

As a percentage of population or raw numbers? Because "more" would be "of course" since there are 5x more "white people" than "blacks" in the USA.

Tugg

Raw numbers. That said, black people make up around 13% of the population and account for nearly 50% of known homicide offenders and victims, so it is telling that even though white males are statistically much less likely to be involved in violent crime than black males, they are still killed in a larger number.

N583JB wrote:

so it is telling that even though white males are statistically much less likely to be involved in violent crime than black males, they are still killed in a larger number.

5 times larger?

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

N583JB wrote:

so it is telling that even though white males are statistically much less likely to be involved in violent crime than black males, they are still killed in a larger number.

5 times larger?

Tugg

Nope, not five times larger. A fact that is largely explained by looking at the differences in violent crime rates between the two groups. If group A is 7 times more likely to be involved in a violent crime than group B, then group A is statistically much more likely to have negative interactions with the police than group B.

N583JB wrote:

Tugger wrote:

N583JB wrote:

so it is telling that even though white males are statistically much less likely to be involved in violent crime than black males, they are still killed in a larger number.

5 times larger?

Tugg

Nope, not five times larger. A fact that is largely explained by looking at the differences in violent crime rates between the two groups. If group A is 7 times more likely to be involved in a violent crime than group B, then group A is statistically much more likely to have negative interactions with the police than group B.

Yup, that was noted in one of the articles I edited into my post (sorry).

There is so much at play with crime and murder statistics. We do owe it to the public at large to address issues as best we can where we can. Poverty, single parent homes with limited options, drug and criminal penetration into certain neighborhoods. We all benefit the better we address these things.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Tugger wrote:

5 times larger?

Tugg

Nope, not five times larger. A fact that is largely explained by looking at the differences in violent crime rates between the two groups. If group A is 7 times more likely to be involved in a violent crime than group B, then group A is statistically much more likely to have negative interactions with the police than group B.

Yup, that was noted in one of the articles I edited into my post (sorry).

There is so much at play with crime and murder statistics. We do owe it to the public at large to address issues as best we can where we can. Poverty, single parent homes with limited options, drug and criminal penetration into certain neighborhoods. We all benefit the better we address these things.

Tugg

Agreed. I think the disparity in crime rates is tied very closely poverty rates. Poor people are more likely to get involved in crime for a number of reasons (desperation, lack of options, difficult upbringings, etc). It just so happens that a minorities are disproportionately represented amongst the poor population, which also makes then disproportionately represented in things like crime statistics.

StarAC17 wrote:

I think the same, this could very well potentially go very much like the George Zimmerman case in 2013.

No I don't think so. Many key differences there from the George Zimmerman case:
1) There was no video
2) By father/son's own admission, they pursued him. They left their home armed up and left their property for the purpose of the pursuing and confronting Ahmaud. This right here, even if you want to be charitable and believe their story 100%, is an easy manslaughter conviction.
3) Florida has a history of over-charging based on available evidence.

N583JB wrote:

scbriml wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Do you have any evidence that black men are being "hunted every day"? Hyperbole and sensationalism are harmful, as are false narrarives.

This case is literally about a black man being hunted and killed. In 2020. Lebron may have exaggerated, but that doesn't change the case.

You are right that this case is about a man being hunted and killed, but Lebron said that this happens "every day". That is quite the exaggeration. Perhaps Lebron should take a page out of his own book and only comment on things that he knows about.

Ever since he threw the Hong Kong protesters under the bus to lick the boot heals of his CCP benefactors, I haven't listened or given any credibility to what Lebron says. I wonder what his thoughts are on the extreme racism Africans face in China? Crickets most likely...