Trump Linked To U.S. Mercenaries Who Planned Coup In Venezuela

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/5/6/v ... nker_salas


Another day of stupidity ...

Amateur hour. As misguided and undemocratic as CIA activities in the 50s through 80s were, they were rarely sloppy and did painstakingly detailed work and preparation.

I highly doubt Trump had something to do with this, because it was stupidly done.

Cuban intelligence is so good, they knew they were coming. They have assets everywhere, in Miami they are very much prevalent. Some people can't just keep their mouths shut, Cuban intelligence passed this to Venezuela, and they end results they were sitting ducks.

Very much true, amateur hour.

Maduro will stick around for a long time, now that he has been indicted on drug charges, what's for him to lose?

If the US government really wanted to extract Maduro they would have done it with its military not these guys.

The Bay Of Piglets

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... fell-apart

AirWorthy99 wrote:

I highly doubt Trump had something to do with this, because it was stupidly done.

...

Very much true, amateur hour.

I'm not seeing why the fact this was stupid excludes the possibility that Trump was involved.

GDB wrote:

The Bay Of Piglets

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... fell-apart

More like Bay of Donkeys.

scbriml wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

I highly doubt Trump had something to do with this, because it was stupidly done.

...

Very much true, amateur hour.

I'm not seeing why the fact this was stupid excludes the possibility that Trump was involved.

GDB wrote:

The Bay Of Piglets

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... fell-apart

More like Bay of Donkeys.

That would be Bahia de los Burros

The glee that an attempt at freedom failed and the rush to link to the Trump is disturbing though not surprising. I hope one day the people of that country can do what was attempted here.

NIKV69 wrote:

The glee that an attempt at freedom failed and the rush to link to the Trump is disturbing though not surprising. I hope one day the people of that country can do what was attempted here.

The US also tried and failed a coup with Chavez. Who is to say the the current economic situation in Venezuela isn't being caused by American led economic sabotage?

America isn't known for letting oil producing nations who are politically unaligned have their freedom. Not since WW2 anyways.

And America certainly knows how to hold a long teem grudge and economically bleed a nation for decades, just look at Cuba.

Now this is not to say Mauro shouldn't go, but is it the place of the USA to dictate that to Venezuelans?

Let the Venezuelans continue to be punished for their collective stupidity and gullibility for voting in Chavez. They’re not a threat to anyone while poverty and starvation ties them down. Maybe the lesson that Argentinians continue to forget will sink in.

NIKV69 wrote:

The glee that an attempt at freedom failed and the rush to link to the Trump is disturbing though not surprising. I hope one day the people of that country can do what was attempted here.

Because it’s stupid. Shouldn’t Venezuelans fight for freedom, if that’s what they decide they want?

Aaron747 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

The glee that an attempt at freedom failed and the rush to link to the Trump is disturbing though not surprising. I hope one day the people of that country can do what was attempted here.

Because it’s stupid. Shouldn’t Venezuelans fight for freedom, if that’s what they decide they want?

Venezuelans are hungry, and the only ones who can provide food for them is the government. They should fight for freedom but its more simple than saying it. You got a police state, and food only supplied by the government.

Very very difficult for people to rise up to something like that. Yes I am sure some don't care or want a regime change, but if you manage to speak with some you might just find out why things are a bit more complex than what it seems.

Maduro and his cronies manage a narco-state. Basically this is Noriega but far worse. They have bought half of Miami with luxury condos/ mansions deviating cash from their state coffers, and also drug proceeds.

In reality this is what happens with absolute power, it corrupts absolutely. I can't believe I see this but they are far more corrupt than the Cuban regime. And that's a tough one to beat.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

The glee that an attempt at freedom failed and the rush to link to the Trump is disturbing though not surprising. I hope one day the people of that country can do what was attempted here.

Because it’s stupid. Shouldn’t Venezuelans fight for freedom, if that’s what they decide they want?

Venezuelans are hungry, and the only ones who can provide food for them is the government. They should fight for freedom but its more simple than saying it. You got a police state, and food only supplied by the government.

Very very difficult for people to rise up to something like that. Yes I am sure some don't care or want a regime change, but if you manage to speak with some you might just find out why things are a bit more complex than what it seems.

Maduro and his cronies manage a narco-state. Basically this is Noriega but far worse. They have bought half of Miami with luxury condos/ mansions deviating cash from their state coffers, and also drug proceeds.

In reality this is what happens with absolute power, it corrupts absolutely. I can't believe I see this but they are far more corrupt than the Cuban regime. And that's a tough one to beat.

The same can be said of many places - but the history of American intervention in Latin America os quite clear: it only goes down if there’s something in it for DC. It’s never about the people. If Washington were really moved by the starving and oppressed the geopolitical landscape and American footprint on human rights activism would be radically different.

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Because it’s stupid. Shouldn’t Venezuelans fight for freedom, if that’s what they decide they want?

Venezuelans are hungry, and the only ones who can provide food for them is the government. They should fight for freedom but its more simple than saying it. You got a police state, and food only supplied by the government.

Very very difficult for people to rise up to something like that. Yes I am sure some don't care or want a regime change, but if you manage to speak with some you might just find out why things are a bit more complex than what it seems.

Maduro and his cronies manage a narco-state. Basically this is Noriega but far worse. They have bought half of Miami with luxury condos/ mansions deviating cash from their state coffers, and also drug proceeds.

In reality this is what happens with absolute power, it corrupts absolutely. I can't believe I see this but they are far more corrupt than the Cuban regime. And that's a tough one to beat.

The same can be said of many places - but the history of American intervention in Latin America os quite clear: it only goes down if there’s something in it for DC. It’s never about the people. If Washington were really moved by the starving and oppressed the geopolitical landscape and American footprint on human rights activism would be radically different.

There has been almost no US intervention in Venezuela. The US did not bankrupt their oil industry. How can you bankrupt oil industry? corruption from their own politicians.

The problems Venezuela has had aren't tied to US intervention. They were enjoying 100+ dollar barrel of oil, what did they do with that money? no it wasn't the US fault. So lets stop using that as an excuse for each countries problems.

Clearly here Cuban, Iranian, Russian and Chinese intervention has to do with their problems. Perhaps the lack of US intervention is the reason for their issues.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Venezuelans are hungry, and the only ones who can provide food for them is the government. They should fight for freedom but its more simple than saying it. You got a police state, and food only supplied by the government.

Very very difficult for people to rise up to something like that. Yes I am sure some don't care or want a regime change, but if you manage to speak with some you might just find out why things are a bit more complex than what it seems.

Maduro and his cronies manage a narco-state. Basically this is Noriega but far worse. They have bought half of Miami with luxury condos/ mansions deviating cash from their state coffers, and also drug proceeds.

In reality this is what happens with absolute power, it corrupts absolutely. I can't believe I see this but they are far more corrupt than the Cuban regime. And that's a tough one to beat.

The same can be said of many places - but the history of American intervention in Latin America os quite clear: it only goes down if there’s something in it for DC. It’s never about the people. If Washington were really moved by the starving and oppressed the geopolitical landscape and American footprint on human rights activism would be radically different.

There has been almost no US intervention in Venezuela. The US did not bankrupt their oil industry. How can you bankrupt oil industry? corruption from their own politicians.

The problems Venezuela has had aren't tied to US intervention. They were enjoying 100+ dollar barrel of oil, what did they do with that money? no it wasn't the US fault. So lets stop using that as an excuse for each countries problems.

Clearly here Cuba, Russia and Chinese intervention has to do with their problems. Perhaps the lack of US intervention is the reason for their issues.

I’m talking about any potential for intervention with Maduro and what would drive it - not the history of Venezuela. Sec. Pompeo doesn’t give two shits about the everyday Venezuelan who is starving, just as Sec. Shultz didn’t care about oppression under Ortega and Sec. Kissinger was proud of the junta’s success in Chile, despite overturning the democratic will of the people there.

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

The same can be said of many places - but the history of American intervention in Latin America os quite clear: it only goes down if there’s something in it for DC. It’s never about the people. If Washington were really moved by the starving and oppressed the geopolitical landscape and American footprint on human rights activism would be radically different.

There has been almost no US intervention in Venezuela. The US did not bankrupt their oil industry. How can you bankrupt oil industry? corruption from their own politicians.

The problems Venezuela has had aren't tied to US intervention. They were enjoying 100+ dollar barrel of oil, what did they do with that money? no it wasn't the US fault. So lets stop using that as an excuse for each countries problems.

Clearly here Cuba, Russia and Chinese intervention has to do with their problems. Perhaps the lack of US intervention is the reason for their issues.

I’m talking about any potential for intervention with Maduro and what would drive it - not the history of Venezuela. Sec. Pompeo doesn’t give two shits about the everyday Venezuelan who is starving, just as Sec. Shultz didn’t care about oppression under Ortega and Sec. Kissinger was proud of the junta’s success in Chile, despite overturning the democratic will of the people there.

Well, Obama's 8 years did not do anything to stop this situation from coming to this. And I doubt Trump will try to do anything really.

As for your other examples, as I said lets base it on results. Chile lots of human rights issues when Pinochet got into power, yes unfortunately, but look how Chile became.

Do I think dictatorships are great? of course not, but give me an option, leftist dictatorship or right-wing dictatorship. US backed Chile can show you the end result, Pinochet resigned and allowed a democratic transition happen. Whereas look at China/Russia backed Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua, would they ever do the same there? absolutely not.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

There has been almost no US intervention in Venezuela. The US did not bankrupt their oil industry. How can you bankrupt oil industry? corruption from their own politicians.

The problems Venezuela has had aren't tied to US intervention. They were enjoying 100+ dollar barrel of oil, what did they do with that money? no it wasn't the US fault. So lets stop using that as an excuse for each countries problems.

Clearly here Cuba, Russia and Chinese intervention has to do with their problems. Perhaps the lack of US intervention is the reason for their issues.

I’m talking about any potential for intervention with Maduro and what would drive it - not the history of Venezuela. Sec. Pompeo doesn’t give two shits about the everyday Venezuelan who is starving, just as Sec. Shultz didn’t care about oppression under Ortega and Sec. Kissinger was proud of the junta’s success in Chile, despite overturning the democratic will of the people there.

Well, Obama's 8 years did not do anything to stop this situation from coming to this. And I doubt Trump will try to do anything really.

As for your other examples, as I said lets base it on results. Chile lots of human rights issues when Pinochet got into power, yes unfortunately, but look how Chile became.

Do I think dictatorships are great? of course not, but give me an option, leftist dictatorship or right-wing dictatorship. US backed Chile can show you the end result, Pinochet resigned and allowed a democratic transition happen. Whereas look at China/Russia backed Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua, would they ever do the same there? absolutely not.

Chile may have good exports and tourism but in terms of total opportunity is not much better off than others in the region - exemplified by the riots and crackdowns the last two years. Regardless of system in LA the results are similar - a lot of wealth concentrated for very few, and so on and so forth.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/980 ... n-country/

The point remains that Washington hardly cares about the plight of people in LA unless there is a politically expedient benefit to be realized.

Given the sheer ignorance of some on here, small wonder you got in the mire so badly and not just in Latin America, SE Asia too.
Chavez went off the deep end true, however that was after a botched US backed coup.
For people in Chile, Sept 11th is a day when things turned dark and 1000's would die, Sept 11th 1973.
Even moderate social democrats were overthrown and replaced by US backed and (often trained) thugs.
But you got your blowback, the drugs 'war'. I say 'war' because actual wars end.

Cuba went from a Spanish colony to a US one.
Castro, not long after driving out the regime that had turned the island into a Mafia run whorehouse, visited the US and made quite the impression.
Was it inevitable he would become an ally of the USSR?
It didn't look like it in 1959/early 1960, that soon changed.
When he did not want to become another supplicant to US economic interests, I bet the USSR could not believe their luck.

And it's no good getting all huffy and preachy about his regime's descent into dictatorship and human rights abuses, awful as they were, when the US has a long history of propping and/or installing regimes as bad if not far worse.
Just without the education or healthcare.

Small nations being threatened by an aggressive giant to their north, do desperate, even somewhat stupid things.
Again, it's something I just don't think some in the US can get their head around.

GDB wrote:

Given the sheer ignorance of some on here, small wonder you got in the mire so badly and not just in Latin America, SE Asia too.
Chavez went off the deep end true, however that was after a botched US backed coup.
For people in Chile, Sept 11th is a day when things turned dark and 1000's would die, Sept 11th 1973.
Even moderate social democrats were overthrown and replaced by US backed and (often trained) thugs.
But you got your blowback, the drugs 'war'. I say 'war' because actual wars end.

Cuba went from a Spanish colony to a US one.
Castro, not long after driving out the regime that had turned the island into a Mafia run whorehouse, visited the US and made quite the impression.
Was it inevitable he would become an ally of the USSR?
It didn't look like it in 1959/early 1960, that soon changed.
When he did not want to become another supplicant to US economic interests, I bet the USSR could not believe their luck.

And it's no good getting all huffy and preachy about his regime's descent into dictatorship and human rights abuses, awful as they were, when the US has a long history of propping and/or installing regimes as bad if not far worse.
Just without the education or healthcare.

Small nations being threatened by an aggressive giant to their north, do desperate, even somewhat stupid things.
Again, it's something I just don't think some in the US can get their head around.

Rich coming from a Brit, lecturing on colonialism

GDB wrote:

Given the sheer ignorance of some on here, small wonder you got in the mire so badly and not just in Latin America, SE Asia too.
Chavez went off the deep end true, however that was after a botched US backed coup.
For people in Chile, Sept 11th is a day when things turned dark and 1000's would die, Sept 11th 1973.
Even moderate social democrats were overthrown and replaced by US backed and (often trained) thugs.
But you got your blowback, the drugs 'war'. I say 'war' because actual wars end.

Cuba went from a Spanish colony to a US one.
Castro, not long after driving out the regime that had turned the island into a Mafia run whorehouse, visited the US and made quite the impression.
Was it inevitable he would become an ally of the USSR?
It didn't look like it in 1959/early 1960, that soon changed.
When he did not want to become another supplicant to US economic interests, I bet the USSR could not believe their luck.

And it's no good getting all huffy and preachy about his regime's descent into dictatorship and human rights abuses, awful as they were, when the US has a long history of propping and/or installing regimes as bad if not far worse.
Just without the education or healthcare.

Small nations being threatened by an aggressive giant to their north, do desperate, even somewhat stupid things.
Again, it's something I just don't think some in the US can get their head around.

Dubious that Cuba has such great healthcare or education. I have a strong suspicion that their numbers are merely propped up, like their or the USSR’s olympics performance. Nothing but a special effort to perform really well on a metric or two, while the rest of the country is something to keep foreign eyes from looking at.

Meanwhile, Chile continues to outperform the region...

See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....

Ah, the long and ignoble tradition of jackasses with delusions of grandeur from the United States heading south to play kingmaker. Send lawyers, guns, and money!

PPVRA wrote:

See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....

Cuba punches way above their weight in whatever health-related indicator you want to choose. They're a massive outlier on a world where every other country correlates health outcomes with GDP.

Compare for example with the Dominican republic. Same climate, same region, similar GDP and population size but Cuba beats Dominican Republic by a large margin in every health indicator you want to list.

I hope these guys' families remember the good times they had. RIP guys!

JJJ wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....

Cuba punches way above their weight in whatever health-related indicator you want to choose. They're a massive outlier on a world where every other country correlates health outcomes with GDP.

Compare for example with the Dominican republic. Same climate, same region, similar GDP and population size but Cuba beats Dominican Republic by a large margin in every health indicator you want to list.

Cuba is a tough place. I've been there. Dominican is definitely more lawless. A corrupt free country is almost as bad as a dictatorship. But, I would just say you have to view Cuba's health statistics through a political lens (they may be inaccurate). Cuba would have a lot less obesity than DR, simply because the people have to walk around searching desperately for food, which is usually low calorie content food. America would probably be healthier too if we banned cars and made everyone live on $1 a day for food, while outlawing processed food.

You're right Cuba placed a huge priority on health care. Primary care doctors LIVE in every village or neighborhood and their duty is to serve that village.

LCDFlight wrote:

Cuba would have a lot less obesity than DR, simply because the people have to walk around searching desperately for food, which is usually low calorie content food on the island.

You got it right, hunger in Cuba is prevalent, there is hardly real food for people there. And if you really wish to believe the statistics from a communist run dictatorship, we know where it goes, we are currently dealing with a crisis made in part to the unwillingness of a communist dictatorship of being fully transparent about basic health data.

Many of those in the left who say not to criticize Cuba because of their 'health' and 'education' put too much faith and confidence on them. That's one of the first tactics in propaganda, look here its much better than the rest, but don't look there....

Lets base it on results, if you see the population of a country leaving a country on exodus type levels, its because things are not great. Otherwise if things are so good, why would they on earth leave a country with so much good things happening?

Look at Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua how are people there trying to flee.

LCDFlight wrote:

JJJ wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....

Cuba punches way above their weight in whatever health-related indicator you want to choose. They're a massive outlier on a world where every other country correlates health outcomes with GDP.

Compare for example with the Dominican republic. Same climate, same region, similar GDP and population size but Cuba beats Dominican Republic by a large margin in every health indicator you want to list.

Cuba is a tough place. I've been there. Dominican is definitely more lawless. A corrupt free country is almost as bad as a dictatorship. But, I would just say you have to view Cuba's health statistics through a political lens (they may be inaccurate). Cuba would have a lot less obesity than DR, simply because the people have to walk around searching desperately for food,

I travel to both Cuba and Dominican Republic for business (agro inputs). I've seen way more abject poverty (including actual hunger) in Dominican Republic than in Cuba. Cuba also does a much better job of getting services to small communities out in the boondocks.

Cuba has more obesity than DR, btw (mostly about the government subsidising high carb foods like bread, rice and lots of sugar and sugary drinks).

AirWorthy99 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Cuba would have a lot less obesity than DR, simply because the people have to walk around searching desperately for food, which is usually low calorie content food on the island.

You got it right, hunger in Cuba is prevalent, there is hardly real food for people there. And if you really wish to believe the statistics from a communist run dictatorship, we know where it goes, we are currently dealing with a crisis made in part to the unwillingness of a communist dictatorship of being fully transparent about basic health data.

Many of those in the left who say not to criticize Cuba because of their 'health' and 'education' put too much faith and confidence on them. That's one of the first tactics in propaganda, look here its much better than the rest, but don't look there....

Lets base it on results, if you see the population of a country leaving a country on exodus type levels, its because things are not great. Otherwise if things are so good, why would they on earth leave a country with so much good things happening?

Look at Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua how are people there trying to flee.

We are seeing the same things.

Used to share an apartment with a Venezuelan doctor who was training in the US. This was when Chavez was coming into power. He explained exactly how his country was going to crumble, first devastating the relatively elite families like his (who mostly left), and later devastating all the poor people, taking the country back to the Stone Age. He knew it from the moment Chavez came to power, that his country was f***ed. Now he is a rich doctor in Florida. You hear the same thing from South Africans today. Civilization can be destroyed. We Americans act like things can't go backwards. But they can. It takes a real idiot to screw up America, after basically winning the game, but the right combination of idiots can do it.

LCDFlight wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Cuba would have a lot less obesity than DR, simply because the people have to walk around searching desperately for food, which is usually low calorie content food on the island.

You got it right, hunger in Cuba is prevalent, there is hardly real food for people there. And if you really wish to believe the statistics from a communist run dictatorship, we know where it goes, we are currently dealing with a crisis made in part to the unwillingness of a communist dictatorship of being fully transparent about basic health data.

Many of those in the left who say not to criticize Cuba because of their 'health' and 'education' put too much faith and confidence on them. That's one of the first tactics in propaganda, look here its much better than the rest, but don't look there....

Lets base it on results, if you see the population of a country leaving a country on exodus type levels, its because things are not great. Otherwise if things are so good, why would they on earth leave a country with so much good things happening?

Look at Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua how are people there trying to flee.

We are seeing the same things.

Used to share an apartment with a Venezuelan doctor who was training in the US. This was when Chavez was coming into power. He explained exactly how his country was going to crumble, first devastating the relatively elite families like his (who mostly left), and later devastating all the poor people, taking the country back to the Stone Age. He knew it from the moment Chavez came to power, that his country was f***ed. Now he is a rich doctor in Florida. You hear the same thing from South Africans today. Civilization can be destroyed. We Americans act like things can't go backwards. But they can. It takes a real idiot to screw up America, after basically winning the game, but the right combination of idiots can do it.

That's because the left loves to destroy things. Everything is so "wrong" and "unjust" that they come in saying the best way is to destroy capitalism and rebuild a more 'equal' society. There you have the result.

A great lady once said: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money."

Cuba has also shrewdly used 'medical diplomacy' for a long time, including in this Covid crisis.

Really, at the end of the Cold War, when the economic lifeline from the USSR was fraying, then severed, the US had a great opportunity to mend fences, entirely. If Castro wanted.
Not to come in and take over business wise, just accept them and let the inevitable loosening on state control (some of which he was compelled to do with tourism anyway, take it's course.

A Social Democratic Cuba, a Scandi nation in the sun could have slowly emerged.
He might well have refused but all the 6 hour speeches would have had great difficulty explaining why not.

Targeted economic aid, on your terms, if you hold elections. If you win, we respect the result.
Trouble would have been, the exiles in Miami would not have worn that either, neither would those they sent to Capitol Hill.

Giving Castro the ultimate card to play, the Yankee aggressors.
He started out modelling himself on Marti, who had fought the Spanish, he ended, in old age, despite numerous Mafia/CIA assassination attempts, an invasion, blockade for decades - the latter post Cold War out of sheer spite - with his regime intact, dying in his bed of old age

Not a foreign policy for the US to be proud of.

Now this Maduro is no Castro, even if he thinks he is.
Nonetheless his regime has also survived US sponsored interventions, as did his predecessor.
What was that Einstein said about doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result?

I'm curious about what this does to Guaido in the long term. It's a stupid misstep from him to be linked to all this. Now the Venezuelan regime can legitimately delegitimize him since he was involved in an attempted violent revolt.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

I highly doubt Trump had something to do with this, because it was stupidly done.

We both know that had it been successful, Trump and Pompeo would both be claiming credit.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Cuban intelligence is so good, they knew they were coming. They have assets everywhere, in Miami they are very much prevalent. Some people can't just keep their mouths shut, Cuban intelligence passed this to Venezuela, and they end results they were sitting ducks.

Who needs Cuban Intelligence when the morons were live tweeting it?

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/05 ... zuela.html

Redd wrote:

The US also tried and failed a coup with Chavez. Who is to say the the current economic situation in Venezuela isn't being caused by American led economic sabotage?

Maduro and his buddies are doing a perfectly good job of sabotaging it themselves actually, but of course the American government will nodoubt be doing what they can to exploit the situation. Sanctions can't help but that's somewhat irrelevant at this point. Wasn't the drone attack on the parade last year done by US proxies?

Redd wrote:

America isn't known for letting oil producing nations who are politically unaligned have their freedom. Not since WW2 anyways.

They can have as much "freedom" as they like, so long as they align themselves with the US.

Redd wrote:

Now this is not to say Mauro shouldn't go, but is it the place of the USA to dictate that to Venezuelans?

Indeed. How many revolutions, supported by the populus, were brought about by a private military company being offered a giant sum to dethrone the tyrant?

Aaron747 wrote:

The same can be said of many places - but the history of American intervention in Latin America os quite clear: it only goes down if there’s something in it for DC. It’s never about the people.

The same people here loudly pretending to care about starving Venezuelans never seem to voice their concerns about starving people elsewhere which is probably an indicator of how they actually feel about the matter.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

As for your other examples, as I said lets base it on results. Chile lots of human rights issues when Pinochet got into power, yes unfortunately, but look how Chile became.

Ridiculous comment. Authoritarian dictators benefit noone in the long term.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

A great lady once said: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money."

Said lady's done received multi million dollar kickbacks from BAE Systems & Saudi Arabia. Easy to say such things when you're rolling in other people's money.

zkojq wrote:

I'm curious about what this does to Guaido in the long term. It's a stupid misstep from him to be linked to all this. Now the Venezuelan regime can legitimately delegitimize him since he was involved in an attempted violent revolt.

So was Chavez (and by extension Maduro).

Going guns first then politics is an acceptable route to power in Latin America.

JJJ wrote:

PPVRA wrote:

See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....

Cuba punches way above their weight in whatever health-related indicator you want to choose. They're a massive outlier on a world where every other country correlates health outcomes with GDP.

Compare for example with the Dominican republic. Same climate, same region, similar GDP and population size but Cuba beats Dominican Republic by a large margin in every health indicator you want to list.

Except for maternal mortality, huh? They’re pretty close to the average Latin American country with terrible maternal mortality.

Cuba’s like that North Korean supermarket that looks just like a western supermarket, but with that air of fake.

GDB wrote:

Cuba has also shrewdly used 'medical diplomacy' for a long time, including in this Covid crisis.

Really, at the end of the Cold War, when the economic lifeline from the USSR was fraying, then severed, the US had a great opportunity to mend fences, entirely. If Castro wanted.
Not to come in and take over business wise, just accept them and let the inevitable loosening on state control (some of which he was compelled to do with tourism anyway, take it's course.

A Social Democratic Cuba, a Scandi nation in the sun could have slowly emerged.
He might well have refused but all the 6 hour speeches would have had great difficulty explaining why not.

Targeted economic aid, on your terms, if you hold elections. If you win, we respect the result.
Trouble would have been, the exiles in Miami would not have worn that either, neither would those they sent to Capitol Hill.

Giving Castro the ultimate card to play, the Yankee aggressors.
He started out modelling himself on Marti, who had fought the Spanish, he ended, in old age, despite numerous Mafia/CIA assassination attempts, an invasion, blockade for decades - the latter post Cold War out of sheer spite - with his regime intact, dying in his bed of old age

Not a foreign policy for the US to be proud of.

Now this Maduro is no Castro, even if he thinks he is.
Nonetheless his regime has also survived US sponsored interventions, as did his predecessor.
What was that Einstein said about doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result?

Medical diplomacy my ass. Slavery is more like it.

RIO DE JANEIRO — In a rare act of collective defiance, scores of Cuban doctors working overseas to make money for their families and their country are suing to break ranks with the Cuban government, demanding to be released from what one judge called a “form of slave labor.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/worl ... evolt.html

PPVRA wrote:

GDB wrote:

Cuba has also shrewdly used 'medical diplomacy' for a long time, including in this Covid crisis.

Really, at the end of the Cold War, when the economic lifeline from the USSR was fraying, then severed, the US had a great opportunity to mend fences, entirely. If Castro wanted.
Not to come in and take over business wise, just accept them and let the inevitable loosening on state control (some of which he was compelled to do with tourism anyway, take it's course.

A Social Democratic Cuba, a Scandi nation in the sun could have slowly emerged.
He might well have refused but all the 6 hour speeches would have had great difficulty explaining why not.

Targeted economic aid, on your terms, if you hold elections. If you win, we respect the result.
Trouble would have been, the exiles in Miami would not have worn that either, neither would those they sent to Capitol Hill.

Giving Castro the ultimate card to play, the Yankee aggressors.
He started out modelling himself on Marti, who had fought the Spanish, he ended, in old age, despite numerous Mafia/CIA assassination attempts, an invasion, blockade for decades - the latter post Cold War out of sheer spite - with his regime intact, dying in his bed of old age

Not a foreign policy for the US to be proud of.

Now this Maduro is no Castro, even if he thinks he is.
Nonetheless his regime has also survived US sponsored interventions, as did his predecessor.
What was that Einstein said about doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result?

Medical diplomacy my ass. Slavery is more like it.

Ask those they have helped if it is? You don't seem to know anything about it.
It's not just in Latin America.
But at disasters, in places beyond.
I'm not supporting the regime but blind hatred does not inform facts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_med ... ationalism

This is from the year 2000, but it has been a similar story recently in Brazil:

“ The test was actually revised twice. After more than 90 percent of the immigrant doctors failed the modified exam when they first took it last May, the state rewrote it again and translated it into Spanish. Again, more than 90 percent failed the easier version when they took it in November. With still further revisions, the exam will be offered yet again late this month.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/14/us/d ... ctors.html


Either Cuba exports the doctors who don’t do well in school, or their training isn’t up to standards. In Brazil, 25-30% actually passed the revalidation exam.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

You got it right, hunger in Cuba is prevalent, there is hardly real food for people there. And if you really wish to believe the statistics from a communist run dictatorship, we know where it goes, we are currently dealing with a crisis made in part to the unwillingness of a communist dictatorship of being fully transparent about basic health data.

Many of those in the left who say not to criticize Cuba because of their 'health' and 'education' put too much faith and confidence on them. That's one of the first tactics in propaganda, look here its much better than the rest, but don't look there....

Lets base it on results, if you see the population of a country leaving a country on exodus type levels, its because things are not great. Otherwise if things are so good, why would they on earth leave a country with so much good things happening?

Look at Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua how are people there trying to flee.

We are seeing the same things.

Used to share an apartment with a Venezuelan doctor who was training in the US. This was when Chavez was coming into power. He explained exactly how his country was going to crumble, first devastating the relatively elite families like his (who mostly left), and later devastating all the poor people, taking the country back to the Stone Age. He knew it from the moment Chavez came to power, that his country was f***ed. Now he is a rich doctor in Florida. You hear the same thing from South Africans today. Civilization can be destroyed. We Americans act like things can't go backwards. But they can. It takes a real idiot to screw up America, after basically winning the game, but the right combination of idiots can do it.

That's because the left loves to destroy things. Everything is so "wrong" and "unjust" that they come in saying the best way is to destroy capitalism and rebuild a more 'equal' society. There you have the result.

A great lady once said: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money."

Lost all credibility (again) with the Thatcher comment - she was a shameless sellout to the evil Gulf royals who worked hard from the 80s on to spread Wahhabism throughout the Muslim world.

While not disputing the nature of the regime, fact is they were targeted by the GW Bush admin, bribed to defect.
This continued until 2017 when the program was wound up.
Another example of sheer US spite and resentment.
I note NYT story was from 2017.
Now look at the many places they have been deployed. In the link.
Bit more useful than sending bibles.

I’m not a fan of the Bible thumpers either, but they do a lot of actually helpful things, too.

For one, lookup Samaritan’s Purse and the field hospital they set up in Italy (and another in NY) and the highly qualified staff of American and Canadian doctors they sent.

NIKV69 wrote:

The glee that an attempt at freedom failed and the rush to link to the Trump is disturbing though not surprising.

Yeah, because illegal regime change always works so well.

Redd wrote:

Now this is not to say Mauro shouldn't go, but is it the place of the USA to dictate that to Venezuelans?

Who said we are? Why do you think that just because of this failed attempt that we are dictating anything? They can't want to be free on their own?

So I just read the wikipedia page about this. The "operation" feels utterly ridiculous, I'm sure some will call it a "false flag".

What I really don't get is such statements :

Goudreau and former Venezuelan National Guard officer Javier Nieto Quintero released a video in the afternoon claiming responsibility, calling the attack "Operation Gideon" and explaining that they intended to launch an army into Venezuela to overthrow Maduro; Goudreau said that as well as the naval attack, his forces had entered Venezuela by land and were still operating.

Former Captain Javier Nieto Quintero, one of the organizers of the operation, said on 7 May that the events were only an "advanced tactical reconnaissance" and that the Carive group had 3,000 troops.

So your operation is totally FUBARed, what do you do ? You announce to your enemy that they must continue looking for more invaders.

I don't know the state of the opposition on the ground, but if it still exists, it will probably get decimated in the aftermath of this...

And Maduro has now ample proof that the evil US is fomenting illegally against his country.

Well done !

As an aside, good for the leaders to stay safely behind while sending others to their deaths...

AirWorthy99 wrote:

I highly doubt Trump had something to do with this, because it was stupidly done.

Cuban intelligence is so good, they knew they were coming. They have assets everywhere, in Miami they are very much prevalent. Some people can't just keep their mouths shut, Cuban intelligence passed this to Venezuela, and they end results they were sitting ducks.

Very much true, amateur hour.

Maduro will stick around for a long time, now that he has been indicted on drug charges, what's for him to lose?

If the US government really wanted to extract Maduro they would have done it with its military not these guys.

When has the US extracted the leader of a country with their military? Just looking for precedence to support your statement and the obvious implication to Trump not being involved.

maverick4002 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

I highly doubt Trump had something to do with this, because it was stupidly done.

Cuban intelligence is so good, they knew they were coming. They have assets everywhere, in Miami they are very much prevalent. Some people can't just keep their mouths shut, Cuban intelligence passed this to Venezuela, and they end results they were sitting ducks.

Very much true, amateur hour.

Maduro will stick around for a long time, now that he has been indicted on drug charges, what's for him to lose?

If the US government really wanted to extract Maduro they would have done it with its military not these guys.

When has the US extracted the leader of a country with their military? Just looking for precedence to support your statement and the obvious implication to Trump not being involved.

Ol' Pineapple Face in Panama in 1989?
Another one of the proxies gone bad.

We are seeing the same things.

Used to share an apartment with a Venezuelan doctor who was training in the US. This was when Chavez was coming into power. He explained exactly how his country was going to crumble, first devastating the relatively elite families like his (who mostly left), and later devastating all the poor people, taking the country back to the Stone Age. He knew it from the moment Chavez came to power, that his country was f***ed. Now he is a rich doctor in Florida. You hear the same thing from South Africans today. Civilization can be destroyed. We Americans act like things can't go backwards. But they can. It takes a real idiot to screw up America, after basically winning the game, but the right combination of idiots can do it.[/quote]

South Africans? What was the elixr for South Africa? Per your comment Chavez being elected contributed to Venezuela's condition, so what was it for South Africa

maverick4002 wrote:

We are seeing the same things.

Used to share an apartment with a Venezuelan doctor who was training in the US. This was when Chavez was coming into power. He explained exactly how his country was going to crumble, first devastating the relatively elite families like his (who mostly left), and later devastating all the poor people, taking the country back to the Stone Age. He knew it from the moment Chavez came to power, that his country was f***ed. Now he is a rich doctor in Florida. You hear the same thing from South Africans today. Civilization can be destroyed. We Americans act like things can't go backwards. But they can. It takes a real idiot to screw up America, after basically winning the game, but the right combination of idiots can do it.

South Africans? What was the elixr for South Africa? Per your comment Chavez being elected contributed to Venezuela's condition, so what was it for South Africa

South Africa now has a populist socialist government that is dismantling the economy, which will, in the end, put it back into dirt poverty.

Aaron747 wrote:

Lost all credibility (again) with the Thatcher comment - she was a shameless sellout to the evil Gulf royals who worked hard from the 80s on to spread Wahhabism throughout the Muslim world.

Come on? really you are the types who celebrates women in power such as Speaker Pelosi.

I have my favorite too, and she was the first head of government of a major country in the world. She had to fight the sexism and misogyny in order to become one of the most successful leaders of the UK.

You don't like her? OK, allow me to respond with another quote from her: "If you just set out to be liked, you will be prepared to compromise on anything at anytime, and would achieve nothing."

maverick4002 wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

I highly doubt Trump had something to do with this, because it was stupidly done.

Cuban intelligence is so good, they knew they were coming. They have assets everywhere, in Miami they are very much prevalent. Some people can't just keep their mouths shut, Cuban intelligence passed this to Venezuela, and they end results they were sitting ducks.

Very much true, amateur hour.

Maduro will stick around for a long time, now that he has been indicted on drug charges, what's for him to lose?

If the US government really wanted to extract Maduro they would have done it with its military not these guys.

When has the US extracted the leader of a country with their military? Just looking for precedence to support your statement and the obvious implication to Trump not being involved.

A little bit of history here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _of_Panama

NIKV69 wrote:

Redd wrote:

Now this is not to say Mauro shouldn't go, but is it the place of the USA to dictate that to Venezuelans?

Who said we are? Why do you think that just because of this failed attempt that we are dictating anything? They can't want to be free on their own?

Orchestrated (failed) coup says you are.