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Sokes
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Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 3:55 pm

I once met a Muslim from Kosovo. When I told him that I live in India he asked me what I think of the British Empire. I said good.
He said that after the Kosovo war the UN supervised. I'm not sure if this referred only to judiciary or also executive. At any rate in a true sense of self determination the parliamentarians had to vote if this arrangement should continue. Needles to say, the powerful are not keen to be supervised.
But the guy I spoke with said: "That was superb. They should have stayed another fifty years."

In 1990 Austria's population was 7,7 million. Now it's 9 million. Many young people of neighboring countries seem to find it more attractive to work under foreign rule than under home rule. This makes me wonder:
1) Should countries which face a lot of emigration to Austria at elections give the choice to vote for rule by Austria?
2) Is it feasible to resurrect the Donau monarchy, possible with a British type of king/ queen?

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary

The first 30 years the vote would be limited to today's Austrian population. After that general franchise.

So what further ideas or objections do you have?
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johns624
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 4:28 pm

People emigrate for economic reasons, not political ones. The main thing that led to the collapse of the original AHE (besides for WW1, which just hastened it) was the mix of nationalities, most of which had no real political power. Unless you were Austrian or Magyar, you were nothing.
Here's a question for the OP. Does thinking highly of the British Empire mean that you would want to combine Bangladesh and Pakistan back into India?
 
flyguy89
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 4:58 pm

I don't think it's possible. The trend is toward further balkanization, not union unfortunately. The Austro-Hungarian Empire certainly had faults, but I've always been fascinated by it as one of the first attempts at pan-European governance. In a lot of my readings as well, anecdotal discussions with people in some of the former Habsburg countries who actually lived through the empire, communism, and the fall of communism would speak nostalgically of the days of the Empire as a time stability and prosperity.

From a purely fantasy perspective, I would love seeing some type of restoration of a constitutional Habsburg monarchy...along with a restoration of a Romanov constitutional monarchy in Russia ;)
 
Newark727
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 5:08 pm

The Austro-Hungarian empire was a dysfunctional mess and bringing it back would be bizarre and counterproductive. Which means we can expect it next Tuesday at the latest...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 7:49 pm

Or bring back it’s predecessor, the Holy Roman Empire.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 10:01 pm

The EU is the modern successor. It is hard to run, difficult to balance the various interests, requires some sacrifices - but no wars, starvation, serfdom - but there are people galore who would go back to eternal fighting and famines.
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GDB
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 10:08 pm

Is this thread a joke?
I know we are in a pandemic, however it isn't the 1918/19 one and we have not just had the First World War.
It effectively ended with that young Serbian gunman in June 1914.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 10:45 pm

Archduke Ferdinand says he's available.
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Aesma
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sat May 09, 2020 11:17 pm

From my rough calculations that empire would have about 100 millions inhabitants now. Do you really think 91 millions people are dreaming of living in Austria, or to be ruled by Austrians ?

The numerous countries that have now be formed from this empire, are all doing pretty OK, most are part of the EU or on the path to be, what would be the point ?

What's with the obsession with monarchies, I just don't get it. You get out of the right vagina so you get to rule over others ?
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Olddog
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sun May 10, 2020 8:30 am

French may have a spare guillotine available just in case :)
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VSMUT
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sun May 10, 2020 10:04 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The EU is the modern successor. It is hard to run, difficult to balance the various interests, requires some sacrifices - but no wars, starvation, serfdom - but there are people galore who would go back to eternal fighting and famines.


:checkmark:

The EU is pretty much designed to do exactly this job, providing a single free market, free movement of goods, trade and work force and to an extent alignment of regulations and rules. The Austro-Hungarian empire wasn't designed to do that.
 
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sun May 10, 2020 5:15 pm

Newark727 wrote:
The Austro-Hungarian empire was a dysfunctional mess and bringing it back would be bizarre and counterproductive. Which means we can expect it next Tuesday at the latest...

Exactly. People are emigrating for economic reasons driven by a less corrupt government.

I think countries should merge, but monarchy is done.
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sun May 10, 2020 6:17 pm

Aesma wrote:
From my rough calculations that empire would have about 100 millions inhabitants now. Do you really think 91 millions people are dreaming of living in Austria, or to be ruled by Austrians ?

The numerous countries that have now be formed from this empire, are all doing pretty OK, most are part of the EU or on the path to be, what would be the point ?

What's with the obsession with monarchies, I just don't get it. You get out of the right vagina so you get to rule over others ?


I don't think there is any sovereign that has any actual reigning powers (constitutional monarchies), except maybe some for QEII, so I don't think there is any ruling going on anyway.

lightsaber wrote:
Exactly. People are emigrating for economic reasons driven by a less corrupt government.

I think countries should merge, but monarchy is done.


I definitely disagree on that one. We've had Kings and Queens for about a 1000 years now and there is noway I would want to switch the royal family
for a clown (read politician) who wouldn't have any more powers then the sovereign anyway. Also IMO the monarchy (atleast for Sweden (and maybe Denmark?))
is part of the national history and our identity. However reviving a monarchy in a republic might be another thing.
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airhansa
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sun May 10, 2020 6:38 pm

Sokes wrote:
I once met a Muslim from Kosovo. When I told him that I live in India he asked me what I think of the British Empire. I said good.
He said that after the Kosovo war the UN supervised. I'm not sure if this referred only to judiciary or also executive. At any rate in a true sense of self determination the parliamentarians had to vote if this arrangement should continue. Needles to say, the powerful are not keen to be supervised.
But the guy I spoke with said: "That was superb. They should have stayed another fifty years."

In 1990 Austria's population was 7,7 million. Now it's 9 million. Many young people of neighboring countries seem to find it more attractive to work under foreign rule than under home rule. This makes me wonder:
1) Should countries which face a lot of emigration to Austria at elections give the choice to vote for rule by Austria?
2) Is it feasible to resurrect the Donau monarchy, possible with a British type of king/ queen?

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary

The first 30 years the vote would be limited to today's Austrian population. After that general franchise.

So what further ideas or objections do you have?


1) Are you an ethnic Indian? Most Indians I've met tend to dislike the British Empire (and Muslims, but that's for another thread).

2) The Austro-Hungarian Empire was part of a larger family of networks. It's akin to saying that the UK is the current Austro-Hungarian Empire, whereas the Commonwealth Realms and the Anglosphere are the networks. I would argue that the "Hungry" part of Austro-Hungary is redundant. Though I am tolerant of monarchies and can see the positives in restoring them, most people except for Austrians don't see value in the Austro-Hungarian empire, and even Austrians themselves have other classical desires to chase after - Austro-Hungary wasn't the only empire involving Austria nor was it their only dream.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Sun May 10, 2020 7:33 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Aesma wrote:
From my rough calculations that empire would have about 100 millions inhabitants now. Do you really think 91 millions people are dreaming of living in Austria, or to be ruled by Austrians ?

The numerous countries that have now be formed from this empire, are all doing pretty OK, most are part of the EU or on the path to be, what would be the point ?

What's with the obsession with monarchies, I just don't get it. You get out of the right vagina so you get to rule over others ?


I don't think there is any sovereign that has any actual reigning powers (constitutional monarchies), except maybe some for QEII, so I don't think there is any ruling going on anyway.


I would think most monarchies actually do have reigning powers, in Europe, no, but outside? Japan excluded, of course, that is the same as in Europe.

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Exactly. People are emigrating for economic reasons driven by a less corrupt government.

I think countries should merge, but monarchy is done.


I definitely disagree on that one. We've had Kings and Queens for about a 1000 years now and there is noway I would want to switch the royal family
for a clown (read politician) who wouldn't have any more powers then the sovereign anyway. Also IMO the monarchy (atleast for Sweden (and maybe Denmark?))
is part of the national history and our identity. However reviving a monarchy in a republic might be another thing.


We have the Orange family for 200years and I would say it has been more than enough, our king rather wanted to fly anyway, so they have more useful things to do, than playing Royals. Quite sad for them that they have to play a part and have actually the same rights as a minor, our PM is responsible for their actions.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
rfields5421
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 1:03 am

The general world trend is to break away into smaller and smaller countries based upon ethnic, religious or tribal relationships.

Unfortunately this has produced several 'countries' that are IMHO economically unable to survive. The industrial and food production capabilities of some of the new nations is too small to support the current population.

Yugoslavia was a failed attempt to gather many small groups into one larger nation with a broader base. I know there were a lot of other reasons. The basic point is that the consolidation was not done in a manner to build a 'sense' of a new nation.

Regarding that specific region - I have not seen or heard anything that the various national groups WANT to merge with their neighbors.

Maybe in 50 or 100 or 200 years. But not today.

The British Empire as it exists today is IMHO unique in the world experience. I lived for several years on a British Associated State, and was present on Nov 1, 1981 when full independence was granted. The new nation of Antigua and Barbuda was welcomed into the Commonwealth.

The people of Antigua viewed the United Kingdom as a benevolent 'big brother' and the Queen as a revered head of a world wide organization, much larger than the new small nation. The people of Antigua and Barbuda were also very aware of the benefits of associating with the Commonwealth, especially as they struggled to build an independent economy.

Being dependent upon over half of the GDP from tourism, things are bleak according to news that I see today. But their association with the UK specifically and other Commonwealth members is helping them try to provide for the people of the islands.

I guess the KEY point I'm trying to make is that the British Commonwealth is a positive example of how to downsize an Empire into an association of nations with a common heritage link. Yes, the members were former colonies, at times under harsh rule. But the royal family, starting with King George and the creation of modern India, Pakistan (and eventually Bangladesh) was done in a positive manner. Queen Elizabeth has continued and improved upon her father's legacy.
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Sokes
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 4:27 am

Dutchy wrote:
We have the Orange family for 200years and I would say it has been more than enough, our king rather wanted to fly anyway, so they have more useful things to do, than playing Royals. Quite sad for them that they have to play a part and have actually the same rights as a minor, our PM is responsible for their actions.

Thank you.
Similar Britain isn't a monarchy, but a democracy.
"As the monarchy is constitutional the monarch is limited to functions such as bestowing honours and appointing the prime minister, which are performed in a non-partisan manner. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_ ... ed_Kingdom

The Donau monarchy is a historical reference point. That's why I added it. I like to think the unthinkable, but the monarchy suggestion was more like a joke.
My main point is the suggestion that people should be allowed to vote for foreign rule. I know in Germany foreigners can't even stand for election. Why not? Who is to tell me whom I want to administer me?
I picked Austria as administrator as it has good politics, attracts lot of immigrants, but has not enough population to appear as a threat.
Instead of forming an empire the administration of the foreign people could be limited to thirty years.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Or bring back it’s predecessor, the Holy Roman Empire.

Thank you. That's what I want to discuss about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ
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Sokes
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 5:28 am

airhansa wrote:
1) Are you an ethnic Indian? Most Indians I've met tend to dislike the British Empire (and Muslims, but that's for another thread).

I'm as German as a German gets. Blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels and with a body of steel like Goering.
(Actually I am blond, but that would spoil the joke.)

Goebbels:
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

not to be confused with the founder of Pakistan, Jinnah:
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_Jinnah


It's only the Indian upper classes that dislike the British Empire. They are envious that they didn't rule themselves. Though young people did get something of a nationalist brainwash, which of course requires a common enemy.
Speaking for South India: It's mostly some of the educated Indians that dislike Muslims. Since a Muslim religious conference with guests from Iran led to a lot of corona infections I also heard working class Indians criticizing them. Not sure if this will pass. But it shows that multi-culti always has risk of failure.
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 5:58 am

Sokes wrote:
airhansa wrote:
1) Are you an ethnic Indian? Most Indians I've met tend to dislike the British Empire (and Muslims, but that's for another thread).

I'm as German as a German gets. Blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels and with a body of steel like Goering.
(Actually I am blond, but that would spoil the joke.)


You are not a German, a German would not make a joke about these Nazi's, perhaps in. 200odd years, maybe, but it is still way too soon. In general, bad taste to make a joke like that.
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 6:06 am

Sokes wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We have the Orange family for 200years and I would say it has been more than enough, our king rather wanted to fly anyway, so they have more useful things to do, than playing Royals. Quite sad for them that they have to play a part and have actually the same rights as a minor, our PM is responsible for their actions.

Thank you.
Similar Britain isn't a monarchy, but a democracy


It is both. It is a liberal democracy with an unchosen monarch as head of state.

Sokes wrote:
My main point is the suggestion that people should be allowed to vote for foreign rule. I know in Germany foreigners can't even stand for election. Why not? Who is to tell me whom I want to administer me?
I picked Austria as administrator as it has good politics, attracts lot of immigrants, but has not enough population to appear as a threat.
Instead of forming an empire the administration of the foreign people could be limited to thirty years.


In Germany, foreigners can stand for election at least on the local level and they have to be EU citizens. There were a number of mares that had to resign because of Brexit. If citizens of another country want their country to be annexed by another country, then fine, why not. But the process needs to be careful and fair. Not many would choose too though. Can't remember a fair process by which a piece of land was handed over by one country to another, other than some minor border corrections, can you?
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Sokes
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 10:56 am

Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
My main point is the suggestion that people should be allowed to vote for foreign rule. I know in Germany foreigners can't even stand for election. Why not? Who is to tell me whom I want to administer me?
I picked Austria as administrator as it has good politics, attracts lot of immigrants, but has not enough population to appear as a threat.
Instead of forming an empire the administration of the foreign people could be limited to thirty years.

In Germany, foreigners can stand for election at least on the local level and they have to be EU citizens. There were a number of mares that had to resign because of Brexit.

I correct my statement:
Who is to tell me whom I want to administer me on a state and central level?

Dutchy wrote:
Can't remember a fair process by which a piece of land was handed over by one country to another, other than some minor border corrections, can you?

I can generally not remember many fair processes in history. Germany got united by Bismarck's "wars of unity".

What about France?
Renan:
"Forgetting, I would even say historical error, is an essential factor in the creation
of a nation and it is for this reason that the progress of historical studies often poses a
threat to nationality. Historical inquiry, in effect, throws light on the violent acts that
have taken place at the origin of every political formation, even those that have been the
most benevolent in their consequences. Unity is always brutally established. The
reunion of northern and southern France was the result of a campaign of terror and
extermination that continued for nearly a century. The king of France was, if I dare say
so, the ideal type of the secular crystallizer and produced the most perfect national unity
there had ever been. However, having been seen from too close, the king of France lost
his prestige; the nation that he had built damned him and, today, only cultivated minds
know what he was worth and what he did"
http://ucparis.fr/files/9313/6549/9943/ ... Nation.pdf

Even though Renan was a bit of an antisemite, it's worth reading the few pages. Indeed it gives a glimpse in the 19th century. It must have been really bad if even a person thinking as differentiated as him was prone to antisemitism.

I do not promote violent takeovers. It's a fact that countries go up and down.
Check this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... in_history

So my idea is that we help each other out. For this a total new mindset is required. It requires people to accept that it may be required to give rule to foreigners for let's say 30 years. What I propose is not historic. It's half utopian.

I say half utopian because the IMF is already doing it to a very limited extend. But this very limited extend is breaking up dead end ideologies, e.g. concerning foreign direct investment. India's economy is on an upward trend since the 1990s. It all started with the IMF.
I want that blessing to be extended.
Last edited by Sokes on Mon May 11, 2020 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sokes
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 11:04 am

Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I'm as German as a German gets. Blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels and with a body of steel like Goering.
(Actually I am blond, but that would spoil the joke.)


You are not a German, a German would not make a joke about these Nazi's, perhaps in. 200odd years, maybe, but it is still way too soon. In general, bad taste to make a joke like that.

It's not my joke. It was a joke of the time to ridicule racial theories.
If you are Dutch, I assume you speak German.

"Diejenigen, die mit der Propagierung des arischen Menschen rassischem Überheblichkeitswahn anhingen, diesen förderten oder schamlos verbreiteten, entlarvte der Flüsterwitz in ihrer Erbärmlichkeit: "Blond wie Hitler; schlank wie Göring; groß wie Goebbels." "
https://www.zeit.de/1978/51/zum-tot-lachen/seite-3

One can't fight prejudice with reason.
But one can fight light prejudice with humor. Nobody wants to hold believes which are ridiculous.
Of course people with strong prejudice will react with anger.

If this joke isn't funny, then which joke is?
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 11:06 am

Sokes wrote:
So my idea is that we help each other out. For this a total no mindset is required. It requires people to accept that it may be required to give rule to foreigners for let's say 30 years. What I propose is not historic. It's half utopian.


That is fine, but I also think it is naive to think that this "rule" would end after 30 years. Depending on the level of advancement of society, something like the EU is a much better model. Supra state to help the national states and in. which they actively participate.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 1:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
airhansa wrote:
1) Are you an ethnic Indian? Most Indians I've met tend to dislike the British Empire (and Muslims, but that's for another thread).

I'm as German as a German gets. Blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels and with a body of steel like Goering.
(Actually I am blond, but that would spoil the joke.)


You are not a German, a German would not make a joke about these Nazi's, perhaps in. 200odd years, maybe, but it is still way too soon. In general, bad taste to make a joke like that.


You need to meet more Germans.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 1:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:

In Germany, foreigners can stand for election at least on the local level and they have to be EU citizens. There were a number of mares that had to resign because of Brexit.


A mare is a female horse.
 
Sokes
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 2:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
So my idea is that we help each other out. For this a total no mindset is required. It requires people to accept that it may be required to give rule to foreigners for let's say 30 years. What I propose is not historic. It's half utopian.


That is fine, but I also think it is naive to think that this "rule" would end after 30 years. Depending on the level of advancement of society, something like the EU is a much better model. Supra state to help the national states and in. which they actively participate.

Interesting that somebody from the Netherlands says this.
Britain was part of the liberal block of Northern European countries. It was easy for this block to achieve a 35% blocking minority. What if 66% decide it's advantageous to socialize the national debts?

How did the EU work out for Italy? Did it lead to good policies?
I admit it's too early to judge. People had too different ideas what is money. I made the same mistake when I came to India. Apparently only the French stuck to the agreed inflation target of 2%. All others: guilty!
A lot went wrong, but compared to the history of Europe it went quite well. It would probably be a mistake to be inpatient with (historically) early adjustment problems. So I can't agree nor disagree with you. I have to defer judgement.


Your other objection is even more tricky. Why would foreign rule end after 30 years? Also: Why would Austria be interested to rule other countries?

Britain reserved themselves certain parts of the economy in India. That was their self interest. They allowed industrialization only from the 1920s. The process got interrupted by Great Depression and WW2. I believe 20 more years of British rule and India would have been fit for home rule. All costs to run the government were charged, mostly via land tax. However no Indian tax money was used to finance Britain. Tax financed railways, but hardly roads. Indeed I believe for decades cost for railways was the highest budget post. Thanks to railways food could be transported from food surplus to food deficit areas. This resulted in continuous population increase.

A lot of money was spend on defense. Those supporting independence didn't like that Afghanistan adventures were charged to Indian taxpayers. British government officials enjoyed high salaries when educated Indians would have worked for much less. Well, which government is perfect?
Nobody wanted to listen to "warmonger" Churchill about increasing defense spending. Indians had for a long timed payed for a military that was never needed. But when it was needed Britain used it otherwise. Being too weak caused the West Bengal famine. Churchill is blamed for his inhumane attitude. But if he had his ways earlier, India/ Britain/ the commonwealth would have been in a stronger position. Moreover enormous wealth was extracted from India during WW2. The mood towards the British changed.

Independence brought general franchise. Needless to say farmers weren't keen to pay land tax. They prefer subsidies for fertilizer instead. Poverty breeds corruption. So home rule was corrupt rule. Instead of encouraging industry, politicians used their position of power for "Licence Raj". Nehru tried to realize his visions for some time with foreign credit. What else to say?
Basically India wasn't wealthy enough for general franchise. They didn't have the mentality for limited franchise either. I doubt any country can have a mentality for it.
So what is the solution for such a country? I believe it may be enough to outsource the judiciary to an international organization or a successful country. But I'm not sure. Therefore this discussion.

But then it's not in the nature of liberals to rule over anybody. On the opposite: they wish others well and will defend their right to handle their own affairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7_aagPOpUU&t=10s
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airhansa
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 2:24 pm

Sokes wrote:
airhansa wrote:
1) Are you an ethnic Indian? Most Indians I've met tend to dislike the British Empire (and Muslims, but that's for another thread).


It's only the Indian upper classes that dislike the British Empire. They are envious that they didn't rule themselves. Though young people did get something of a nationalist brainwash, which of course requires a common enemy.
Speaking for South India: It's mostly some of the educated Indians that dislike Muslims. Since a Muslim religious conference with guests from Iran led to a lot of corona infections I also heard working class Indians criticizing them. Not sure if this will pass. But it shows that multi-culti always has risk of failure.


It's the opposite actually in relation to the British Empire. Most of the people that like the British Empire were connected to the "Old Money" civil service of the British - but this excluded most of the middle class, the Hindu infrastructure (pre-colonial "Old Money" people) and much of the "New Money" people. The upper class were historically more likely to support the British Empire because they benefited from it financially, but nowadays most of the liberal and far-right educated Hindus tend to despise the British Empire.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 3:24 pm

Sokes wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
So my idea is that we help each other out. For this a total no mindset is required. It requires people to accept that it may be required to give rule to foreigners for let's say 30 years. What I propose is not historic. It's half utopian.


That is fine, but I also think it is naive to think that this "rule" would end after 30 years. Depending on the level of advancement of society, something like the EU is a much better model. Supra state to help the national states and in. which they actively participate.

Interesting that somebody from the Netherlands says this.
Britain was part of the liberal block of Northern European countries. It was easy for this block to achieve a 35% blocking minority. What if 66% decide it's advantageous to socialize the national debts?


Different discussion. Sorry to say, but I don't think you have grasped all aspects of this.

Sokes wrote:
How did the EU work out for Italy? Did it lead to good policies?


The EU isn't all-powerful you know, far from it, just see the case of Hungary or Poland.

Sokes wrote:
Your other objection is even more tricky. Why would foreign rule end after 30 years? Also: Why would Austria be interested to rule other countries?

Britain reserved themselves certain parts of the economy in India. That was their self interest. They allowed industrialization only from the 1920s. The process got interrupted by Great Depression and WW2. I believe 20 more years of British rule and India would have been fit for home rule. All costs to run the government were charged, mostly via land tax. However no Indian tax money was used to finance Britain. Tax financed railways, but hardly roads. Indeed I believe for decades cost for railways was the highest budget post. Thanks to railways food could be transported from food surplus to food deficit areas. This resulted in continuous population increase.

A lot of money was spend on defense. Those supporting independence didn't like that Afghanistan adventures were charged to Indian taxpayers. British government officials enjoyed high salaries when educated Indians would have worked for much less. Well, which government is perfect?
Nobody wanted to listen to "warmonger" Churchill about increasing defense spending. Indians had for a long timed payed for a military that was never needed. But when it was needed Britain used it otherwise. Being too weak caused the West Bengal famine. Churchill is blamed for his inhumane attitude. But if he had his ways earlier, India/ Britain/ the commonwealth would have been in a stronger position. Moreover enormous wealth was extracted from India during WW2. The mood towards the British changed.

Independence brought general franchise. Needless to say farmers weren't keen to pay land tax. They prefer subsidies for fertilizer instead. Poverty breeds corruption. So home rule was corrupt rule. Instead of encouraging industry, politicians used their position of power for "Licence Raj". Nehru tried to realize his visions for some time with foreign credit. What else to say?
Basically India wasn't wealthy enough for general franchise. They didn't have the mentality for limited franchise either. I doubt any country can have a mentality for it.
So what is the solution for such a country? I believe it may be enough to outsource the judiciary to an international organization or a successful country. But I'm not sure. Therefore this discussion.

But then it's not in the nature of liberals to rule over anybody. On the opposite: they wish others well and will defend their right to handle their own affairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7_aagPOpUU&t=10s


Uhhh, nice tale, but it has got nothing to do with the question you posted.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 3:25 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I'm as German as a German gets. Blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels and with a body of steel like Goering.
(Actually I am blond, but that would spoil the joke.)


You are not a German, a German would not make a joke about these Nazi's, perhaps in. 200odd years, maybe, but it is still way too soon. In general, bad taste to make a joke like that.


You need to meet more Germans.


Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

In Germany, foreigners can stand for election at least on the local level and they have to be EU citizens. There were a number of mares that had to resign because of Brexit.


A mare is a female horse.


As always, great indept analyses and great contribution to the board :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 4:14 pm

Sokes wrote:
Interesting that somebody from the Netherlands says this.
...
I admit it's too early to judge.
...
It would probably be a mistake to be inpatient with (historically) early adjustment problems. So I can't agree nor disagree with you. I have to defer judgement.


Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Interesting that somebody from the Netherlands says this.
Britain was part of the liberal block of Northern European countries. It was easy for this block to achieve a 35% blocking minority. What if 66% decide it's advantageous to socialize the national debts?

Different discussion. Sorry to say, but I don't think you have grasped all aspects of this.

That's why I said I have to defer judgement.


Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Your other objection is even more tricky. Why would foreign rule end after 30 years? Also: Why would Austria be interested to rule other countries?
...
But then it's not in the nature of liberals to rule over anybody. On the opposite: they wish others well and will defend their right to handle their own affairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7_aagPOpUU&t=10s


Uhhh, nice tale, but it has got nothing to do with the question you posted.

I asked
Sokes wrote:
1) Should countries which face a lot of emigration to Austria at elections give the choice to vote for rule by Austria?

The British in India had some advantages and some disadvantages for the Indians. It's an example of foreign rule. How would you approach the question?

You have the last word.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 5:13 pm

Sokes wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Interesting that somebody from the Netherlands says this.
...
I admit it's too early to judge.
...
It would probably be a mistake to be inpatient with (historically) early adjustment problems. So I can't agree nor disagree with you. I have to defer judgement.


Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Interesting that somebody from the Netherlands says this.
Britain was part of the liberal block of Northern European countries. It was easy for this block to achieve a 35% blocking minority. What if 66% decide it's advantageous to socialize the national debts?

Different discussion. Sorry to say, but I don't think you have grasped all aspects of this.

That's why I said I have to defer judgement.


Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Your other objection is even more tricky. Why would foreign rule end after 30 years? Also: Why would Austria be interested to rule other countries?
...
But then it's not in the nature of liberals to rule over anybody. On the opposite: they wish others well and will defend their right to handle their own affairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7_aagPOpUU&t=10s


Uhhh, nice tale, but it has got nothing to do with the question you posted.

I asked
Sokes wrote:
1) Should countries which face a lot of emigration to Austria at elections give the choice to vote for rule by Austria?

The British in India had some advantages and some disadvantages for the Indians. It's an example of foreign rule. How would you approach the question?

You have the last word.


Couldn't you ask a different question, what would it take for the original country to change its ways? It seems a lot easier than a vote to take another government's country.

UN-supervision is a bit different, I think, and could help the population towards a path of self-determination by building up institutions.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 5:49 pm

airhansa wrote:
Sokes wrote:
airhansa wrote:
1) Are you an ethnic Indian? Most Indians I've met tend to dislike the British Empire (and Muslims, but that's for another thread).


It's only the Indian upper classes that dislike the British Empire.


It's the opposite actually in relation to the British Empire. Most of the people that like the British Empire were connected to the "Old Money" civil service of the British - but this excluded most of the middle class, the Hindu infrastructure (pre-colonial "Old Money" people) and much of the "New Money" people. The upper class were historically more likely to support the British Empire because they benefited from it financially, but nowadays most of the liberal and far-right educated Hindus tend to despise the British Empire.

Britain allowed industrialization only from the 1920s. Before that a lot of educated people chased jobs in few available professions, e.g. lawyer or doctor. I assume just like for the students in Cairo during the Arab Spring a future under a different regime promised a golden future.
Who are pre-colonial "old money" people?

I meant to say that the 95% ordinary people were rather pro-British, at least after they left.

"An irrigation system was felt necessary after the disastrous Agra famine of 1837–38, in which nearly 800,000 people died, and nearly ten million rupees was spent on relief works, resulting in considerable loss of revenue to the British East India Company.
...
When the canal formally opened on 8 April 1854,[4] its main channel was 348 miles (560 km) long, its branches 306 miles (492 km) long and the various tributaries over 3,000 miles (4,800 km) long. After irrigation was commenced in May 1855,[4] over 767,000 acres (3,100 km2) in 5,000 villages were irrigated.

In 1877 the whole canal system of the lower Doabs underwent radical alteration. ...Around 1900, according to the Nuttall Encyclopedia of 1907, it had a total extent of 3,700 miles (6,000 km), of which 500 miles (800 km) were navigable. Building of this canal also eventually led to the establishment of first engineering college in India,[5] the College of Civil Engineering at Roorkee (Now Indian Institute of Technology, Roorkee)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganges_Canal#History

AFAIK it was the biggest irrigation scheme in the world at the time. Which earlier ruler has achieved anything similar?

"According to economist Angus Maddison, Mughal-era India's share of global gross domestic product (GDP) grew from 22.7% in 1600 to 24.4% in 1700, surpassing China to become the world's largest."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Jaha ... %80%931658)
So what did the ruler of the richest government of the world do with his wealth? He built the Taj Mahal. What a great profit to his subjects.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Mon May 11, 2020 8:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I'm as German as a German gets. Blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels and with a body of steel like Goering.
(Actually I am blond, but that would spoil the joke.)


You are not a German, a German would not make a joke about these Nazi's, perhaps in. 200odd years, maybe, but it is still way too soon. In general, bad taste to make a joke like that.


Why "bad taste"? It's funny and ironic. All those worshipping Aryan ideal looked like weirdos (Goebbels), perverts (Himmler) and misfits (Hitler) themselves.
 
Sokes
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 4:27 am

johns624 wrote:
People emigrate for economic reasons, not political ones. The main thing that led to the collapse of the original AHE (besides for WW1, which just hastened it) was the mix of nationalities, most of which had no real political power. Unless you were Austrian or Magyar, you were nothing.
Here's a question for the OP. Does thinking highly of the British Empire mean that you would want to combine Bangladesh and Pakistan back into India?

I don't think Pakistan and Bangladesh should reunite with India.
Did the living conditions of those without power improve after the collapse of the state?
But you have the right objection. One has to consider the different identities of people. But what is identity? Coming from Bavaria I do feel close to Austrians. I guess same is true for people from North-West Germany and their neighbors?

Literature usually suggests language and religion to be important factors in what makes a nation. I am surprised that humor is never considered a factor. Most Indians don't understand my humor, I don't understand their humor. Surprising enough my wife from the beginning understood when I made a joke, even though it's not really funny for her. Obviously I like Indians, otherwise I wouldn't live there. But I will never be one of theirs. I will never feel so close to an Indian friend than to a German friend. People who can laugh together fit together. You got British humor? I would love to have you as my neighbor. I love the humor of Vienna. I spent more than a hour around midnight in bad weather at a sausage stand talking with an old lady and a young man. I just enjoyed their humorous Schmäh.
" In an article concerning Austrian humor, the German-language newspaper Kurier offered the following anecdote as an example of Schmäh: "A woman died. In front of her open grave stood her husband next to his wife's lover. The lover was completely broken and cried bitterly. The woman's husband laid his arm consolingly across the lover's shoulders and said: 'Don't take it so hard. I'll definitely marry again!'""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_Schm%C3%A4h

I guess one could write something similar about extroversion versus introversion.

While I consider shared humor important for living together, it's not a factor in nation building. The common past, common heroes and common suffering are factors much more important.
Mankind is a strange species.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
olle
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 7:57 am

I think that 1914 model of politics in Europe is the example why EU is needed.

In 1914 the main effort of UK and Russia was to destabilize the Austrian empire and to stop the new "Deutschland" emerging into a superpower.

Europe has for too long suffered because of this fight between, Russia, UK, France, Austria and from late 1800 Italy and Germany.

To base future Europe on nations and language has been tested and it is always someone that is a victim, and someone getting stronger. For better and worse we have EU and alternatives has proved to be disaster. EU had some victims that is now trying to destabilize it special UK, Russia and partly USA that relative looses influence in the regions.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 9:50 am

olle wrote:
I think that 1914 model of politics in Europe is the example why EU is needed.

In 1914 the main effort of UK and Russia was to destabilize the Austrian empire and to stop the new "Deutschland" emerging into a superpower.

Europe has for too long suffered because of this fight between, Russia, UK, France, Austria and from late 1800 Italy and Germany.

To base future Europe on nations and language has been tested and it is always someone that is a victim, and someone getting stronger. For better and worse we have EU and alternatives has proved to be disaster. EU had some victims that is now trying to destabilize it special UK, Russia and partly USA that relative looses influence in the regions.


:checkmark: exactly, the EU has its flaws and is far from done, but it is the best we have and has granted all 500.000.000 peace and a kind of stable platform to build upon. And indeed some countries try to derail it because of self-interests.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
CPH-R
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 11:20 am

Frankly, if we're going down that route, might I put in a claim for the Kalmar Union to be resurrected? As a gesture of goodwill, I'm also willing to settle for Skåne, Halland & Blekinge returning to Denmark :biggrin:

Oh, and the rest of Schleswig. 'Danmark til Ejderen' and all that ;)
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 12:21 pm

Sokes wrote:
I'm as German as a German gets. Blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels and with a body of steel like Goering.
(Actually I am blond, but that would spoil the joke.)


That is a very simple persona.

A.net used to have a rather complex persona, It was an Indian Punjabi origin, Middle East born, Canadian citizen, Christian, works for Canadian Air Force, Logistics expert, friends with Canadian defense minister, has a PPL and sells Emirates tickets on the side.

It was made up of so many protected classes, debating was high wire act, because you never know what will offend which protected class.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 6:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
olle wrote:
I think that 1914 model of politics in Europe is the example why EU is needed.

In 1914 the main effort of UK and Russia was to destabilize the Austrian empire and to stop the new "Deutschland" emerging into a superpower.

Europe has for too long suffered because of this fight between, Russia, UK, France, Austria and from late 1800 Italy and Germany.

To base future Europe on nations and language has been tested and it is always someone that is a victim, and someone getting stronger. For better and worse we have EU and alternatives has proved to be disaster. EU had some victims that is now trying to destabilize it special UK, Russia and partly USA that relative looses influence in the regions.


:checkmark: exactly, the EU has its flaws and is far from done, but it is the best we have and has granted all 500.000.000 peace and a kind of stable platform to build upon. And indeed some countries try to derail it because of self-interests.

My grandmother had eight or nine siblings. Therefore: land in the east. The youth bulge factor is gone.

I remember the discussions shortly before the Iraq war. My political view is a mix of conservative and green party. (I know these two don't go to bed together.) When conservative prime ministerial candidate Stoiber wanted to join the war in Iraq I was surprised/ disappointed. I didn't consider it possible for Germany to have war again. (Yugoslavia was as just a war as war gets.)
He lost the elections by only a few percent. When no weapons of mass destruction were found I raised this topic in discussions several times. To my surprise nobody wanted to hear it, leave alone discuss it. That means even those who didn't support Stoiber didn't want to hear about Germany nearly attacking another country again. A monkey shouldn't criticize it's own group. This experience properly disillusioned me about the possibility of peace for mankind.
A similar surprise was French involvement in Mali.
Psychopaths win elections. They get easily bored and look for action or they don't mind selling their soul to a lobby group.

It is the US presence on European soil why we have peace for such a long time. Obviously the US has the same problem of psychopaths winning elections. But it makes a difference if politicians of one country can start wars or if politicians of all countries can do it. Moreover US aggression has the advantage that other potential aggressors get impressed. While I have the strongest dislike for Bush I'm not sure if I would prefer 30 years of Clinton rule over 30 years of Bush rule.
General Dyer is an interesting example in this context. A terrible butcher who I believe preserved the unity of India.
Though from Europe, I actually believe this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
I don't like to believe it. It's repulsive to my sense of justice.

I doubt a united Europe would guarantee peace. There will always be somebody who can be attacked.
Pax Romana, Pax Britannia, Pax Americana. Under hegemons the world gets peace for a century or two. Then everything falls into chaos again.


I hope I'm wrong.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 6:28 pm

Sokes wrote:
It is the US presence on European soil why we have peace for such a long time.


Ok, your opinion.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 6:43 pm

CPH-R wrote:
Frankly, if we're going down that route, might I put in a claim for the Kalmar Union to be resurrected? As a gesture of goodwill, I'm also willing to settle for Skåne, Halland & Blekinge returning to Denmark :biggrin:

Oh, and the rest of Schleswig. 'Danmark til Ejderen' and all that ;)


Actually I believe that the Kalmar Union would have been a great idea to maintain.

Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland. Actually one major language - "Scandinavian", we have similar culture, would have avoided 300 years of war between each other. Denmark would have been protected against Germany and Sweden / Finland against Russia.
 
olle
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Tue May 12, 2020 6:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
It is the US presence on European soil why we have peace for such a long time.


Ok, your opinion.


You miss that after the Napolean wars there was a long peace.

The "Great European Civil war" can be counted 1914 to 1989.I strongly believe in the future the period the great war until the fall of berlin wall will be considered as one period not 3 as now.

The The fantastic about post war period is the Franco german friendship. This will be a great driver generations to come.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Wed May 13, 2020 3:42 am

olle wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sokes wrote:
It is the US presence on European soil why we have peace for such a long time.


Ok, your opinion.


You miss that after the Napolean wars there was a long peace.

The "Great European Civil war" can be counted 1914 to 1989.I strongly believe in the future the period the great war until the fall of berlin wall will be considered as one period not 3 as now.

The The fantastic about post war period is the Franco german friendship. This will be a great driver generations to come.


Pity about the Austro-Polish War, the Crimean War, Austro-Prussian War, the Franco-Prussian War, several revolts, Two Italian War of Independence. I doubt the survivors of eating Paris Zoo animals thought it was a peaceful time.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Wed May 13, 2020 6:55 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
olle wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, your opinion.


You miss that after the Napolean wars there was a long peace.

The "Great European Civil war" can be counted 1914 to 1989.I strongly believe in the future the period the great war until the fall of berlin wall will be considered as one period not 3 as now.

The The fantastic about post war period is the Franco german friendship. This will be a great driver generations to come.


Pity about the Austro-Polish War, the Crimean War, Austro-Prussian War, the Franco-Prussian War, several revolts, Two Italian War of Independence. I doubt the survivors of eating Paris Zoo animals thought it was a peaceful time.


Among them indeed: list.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Wed May 13, 2020 7:22 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
olle wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, your opinion.


You miss that after the Napolean wars there was a long peace.

The "Great European Civil war" can be counted 1914 to 1989.I strongly believe in the future the period the great war until the fall of berlin wall will be considered as one period not 3 as now.

The The fantastic about post war period is the Franco german friendship. This will be a great driver generations to come.


Pity about the Austro-Polish War, the Crimean War, Austro-Prussian War, the Franco-Prussian War, several revolts, Two Italian War of Independence. I doubt the survivors of eating Paris Zoo animals thought it was a peaceful time.


Not to forget the Danish German war in 1850s ;-) Point taken.
 
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Thu May 14, 2020 6:22 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
All those worshipping Aryan ideal looked like weirdos (Goebbels), perverts (Himmler) and misfits (Hitler) themselves.

You hit the nail on the head.
Sebastian Haffner who married a Jew and emigrated in time asked the question why people run after a man whom they wouldn't like to give a light on the road.
I don't remember his answer though.
Goebbels also had the nickname "Schrumpfgermane" = pint-size Teuton/ shrink Teuton
Goering was so proud of all his medals and decorations that he got the nickname "christmas tree".
And Himmler's appearance is beyond words.
Once in school the history teacher showed us a video of a Hitler or Goebbels speech. I started laughing. The teacher gave me an angry look. What is there to look angry? If people had to laugh that time nothing would have happened.

There is this movie "Life is beautiful". Father and son are in a concentration camp. The father wants to hide the truth from the son and tells him it's all a game with a big price at the end. Nazis are shown as stupid. And while the father dies, the son survives and meets his mother. How nice. A happy end. The movie got many prices. I believe because it creates a delusion for something which is too depressing to understand.

Strange: With my autistic tendencies I'm supposed to not understand social affairs too well. But I believe I can see the truth better than many others.


Then there is the movie "Mein Fuhrer".

Image
source: https://www.cicero.de/innenpolitik/nazi ... chen/53855

Nazis are smart, mean and without empathy. The main character of the movie is a Jew who is supposed to treat Hitler after a nervous breakdown. The Jew feels pity with Hitler because of Hitler's difficult childhood. The movie is a total provocation for those who believe that people are bad because of environmental factors. Accordingly the movie got extreme hostile reactions.
I believe it just shows the truth: Good people don't kill bad people. On the opposite. Their empathy requires them to help. No justice, no happy end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwYIMxVIPDA

The full subject is very depressing. One can't just accept the truth as it is. Either one chooses denial (Life is beautiful) or sarcasm (Mein Fuhrer).
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Fri May 15, 2020 5:24 pm

Sometimes the solution to bad people is killing, q.v. Hitler and crew
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:03 pm

Yesterday was the 100th anniversary of the Trianon Treaty, shaped most of Eastern Europe.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/ ... n-history/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:36 pm

Yes, it was, it was a bad way of dealing. with the aftermath of WWI.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Should there be a resurrection of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:01 pm

johns624 wrote:
People emigrate for economic reasons, not political ones.


Not always true.

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