Moderators: richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

The Business Class Divide in America

Sun May 17, 2020 3:23 pm

Catching up on some segments on various media from business owners in different states, they had a range of reactions to COVID-related challenges - acceptance, frustration, tears, the whole run one would expect. But regardless of region or political stripes, I noticed something else - several comments about unfairness - both in blue and red states. Very similar comments - ‘my business sells X and is closed, but the supermarket/WalMart across the street sells ABC *and* X, and are ‘essential’ so they are open and taking my income away. Why can they stay open and I can’t?’

How did our country arrive at the point where both parties and nearly every state government don’t even bat an eye at watching mom ‘n pop die out to the benefit of ever fewer large chains? Middle class jobs and the ‘American dream’ of offering an essential service to one’s own community will never be able to be ‘great again’ unless we excise this cancer from the politicoeconomic landscape.

The class warfare upon the middle class by the moneyed and powerful has never been more naked in my lifetime.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Sun May 17, 2020 3:26 pm

Corruption, largely. The big chain stores can afford to have lawyers argue about how they are "essential"....money also helps get a wink and a nudge from a friendly politician so that you can stay open. Mom and pop stores that don't have endless amounts of cash can't compete with that.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Sun May 17, 2020 4:02 pm

N583JB wrote:
Corruption, largely. The big chain stores can afford to have lawyers argue about how they are "essential"....money also helps get a wink and a nudge from a friendly politician so that you can stay open. Mom and pop stores that don't have endless amounts of cash can't compete with that.


I know how it happens of course but don’t get why we allow it to. Maybe we’re not actually a country if we can’t care enough about the majority economic class to keep mom n’ pop open. Or perhaps conserving cash being #1 for most consumers is largely because real wages are essentially flat since the late 70s, perpetuating the cycle?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3902
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Sun May 17, 2020 4:19 pm

All grocery stores are staying open in all states so far as I know. As are pharmacies. Some states are requiring aisles with non-essentials to be closed. Most are not. Life is complicated. Live with it.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6218
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Sun May 17, 2020 6:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
we’re not actually a country if we can’t care enough about the majority economic class to keep mom n’ pop open.


The United States of America is not such a country. It goes deeper than the real value of income. As a nation, the US has never put the needs of the nation overall ahead of the economic needs of the individual or the family or 'tribe'.


It goes back past Sam Walton back to the turn of the century (1900, not 2000) when store owners realized that they could sell a wide range of products to insulate themselves against hard times. Walton just extended the format to larger stores.

The 'essential' stores/ businesses is a bunch of bull chips. Every store is essential to their customers. Mom and Pop stores are better able to implement things like social distancing. But the truth is that big box stores have made Mom and Pop stores uneconomical for most products.

But big retain chains like Walmart and Kroger have the economic power so that even state governments do not want to risk their ire by saying "You can sell food, but not cosmetics, or clothes or..." And of course, any state governor who tried to impose limitations on the big companies would be immediately attacked by the White House.

Heck, what is not essential?

I bought two tires for my pickup truck two weeks ago. Replacing the tires had been delayed almost two months, almost 3,000 miles. I NEEDED to put those new tires on the truck because the old ones were becoming unsafe.
.

Is make-up essential? Not to me, but I'm not willing to risk the ire of my wife.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5331
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Sun May 17, 2020 7:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Catching up on some segments on various media from business owners in different states, they had a range of reactions to COVID-related challenges - acceptance, frustration, tears, the whole run one would expect. But regardless of region or political stripes, I noticed something else - several comments about unfairness - both in blue and red states. Very similar comments - ‘my business sells X and is closed, but the supermarket/WalMart across the street sells ABC *and* X, and are ‘essential’ so they are open and taking my income away. Why can they stay open and I can’t?’

How did our country arrive at the point where both parties and nearly every state government don’t even bat an eye at watching mom ‘n pop die out to the benefit of ever fewer large chains? Middle class jobs and the ‘American dream’ of offering an essential service to one’s own community will never be able to be ‘great again’ unless we excise this cancer from the politicoeconomic landscape.

The class warfare upon the middle class by the moneyed and powerful has never been more naked in my lifetime.


So, Trump wasn’t a racist when he challenged the Chinese trade policies with trade wars. It was China and many other foreign nations that enabled WalMart, etc.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1045
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Sun May 17, 2020 7:46 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Catching up on some segments on various media from business owners in different states, they had a range of reactions to COVID-related challenges - acceptance, frustration, tears, the whole run one would expect. But regardless of region or political stripes, I noticed something else - several comments about unfairness - both in blue and red states. Very similar comments - ‘my business sells X and is closed, but the supermarket/WalMart across the street sells ABC *and* X, and are ‘essential’ so they are open and taking my income away. Why can they stay open and I can’t?’


This happens when our 'elected leaders' have the special powers to select certain businesses to remain open based on a 'emergency'. If you allowed all businesses to be open at their discretion and with measures, this wouldn't happen.

You have politicians such as the governor of Michigan tell you: You can't buy SOD grass, but you can buy marijuana. Because for some reason its more important you get your weed instead of gardening your yard. And the list goes on and on.

Or the mayor of Chicago who said that all barber shops should be closed, yet she can attend to her hair salon because for her its important to look good.

We give politicians the authority to pick and chose at their discretion what they believe is good for us. That's the problem. We as individuals we are born free to pick and chose, and at the same time risk even with our lives our own free choices. Most of us have a brain to actually decide what can be good or bad for us, we don't need the government to tell us at the expense of others whats best of us.

That's what this country has been about, till recently.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 1363
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Sun May 17, 2020 7:51 pm

it's up to each state's gov office. I know my husband's work, was considered non-essential. however, that only lasted a week before they convinced the gov that it was essential. Target sells food, and I have been going to it because it also has other items I need. Wine glasses, board games, sandalwood diffusers.

obviously none of those are essential. A lot of businesses are starting to sell essential items so they can open back up. Liquor stores are not considered essential so they started selling items that are essential and they got open back up. you order online and they bring the order to your car. It's easy in our state, and a ton of stores have open back up because they repurposed their business to survive. Clothing stores you can order online and pick up.

yeah, if you don't repurpose or do curbside pick up, then your probably not going to survive.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 3:26 am

rfields5421 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
we’re not actually a country if we can’t care enough about the majority economic class to keep mom n’ pop open.


The United States of America is not such a country. It goes deeper than the real value of income. As a nation, the US has never put the needs of the nation overall ahead of the economic needs of the individual or the family or 'tribe’


That’s the subtext in a nutshell, absolutely. We cannot actually claim to be a nation - we are fifty states tied together for tax efficacy and federal powers only.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 3:28 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Catching up on some segments on various media from business owners in different states, they had a range of reactions to COVID-related challenges - acceptance, frustration, tears, the whole run one would expect. But regardless of region or political stripes, I noticed something else - several comments about unfairness - both in blue and red states. Very similar comments - ‘my business sells X and is closed, but the supermarket/WalMart across the street sells ABC *and* X, and are ‘essential’ so they are open and taking my income away. Why can they stay open and I can’t?’

How did our country arrive at the point where both parties and nearly every state government don’t even bat an eye at watching mom ‘n pop die out to the benefit of ever fewer large chains? Middle class jobs and the ‘American dream’ of offering an essential service to one’s own community will never be able to be ‘great again’ unless we excise this cancer from the politicoeconomic landscape.

The class warfare upon the middle class by the moneyed and powerful has never been more naked in my lifetime.


So, Trump wasn’t a racist when he challenged the Chinese trade policies with trade wars. It was China and many other foreign nations that enabled WalMart, etc.


Have no idea what you’re on about. That statement was never made by me and is plain silly in the context of this topic.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21778
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 5:27 am

The question of "mom-and-pop" stores is a bit nuanced. One of my husband's best friends' parents owned a Mountain Mike's pizza shop. We don't think of those places as being mom-and-pop, but many of these franchise chains are, in fact, small local businesses.

But a lot of these small "mom-and-pop" businesses are still operating, albeit some in innovative ways. My gym (a minority-owned small business) is doing Zoom classes. I ran out of onions today and so I ran down the street to the small Halal market.

Part of the problem was that the most extreme lockdown stage was supposed to be much more temporary. There were a list of conditions that needed to be met. More testing, better contact tracing, more PPE for medical workers, etc. And yet, the testing lagged. Americans will resist contact tracing. And we all know about the federal confiscations of PPE and testing supplies. My hospital was supposed to get 200 test kits last week and yet...FEMA took them.

And so here we are with no good exit plan.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 6:59 am

DocLightning wrote:
The question of "mom-and-pop" stores is a bit nuanced. One of my husband's best friends' parents owned a Mountain Mike's pizza shop. We don't think of those places as being mom-and-pop, but many of these franchise chains are, in fact, small local businesses.

But a lot of these small "mom-and-pop" businesses are still operating, albeit some in innovative ways. My gym (a minority-owned small business) is doing Zoom classes. I ran out of onions today and so I ran down the street to the small Halal market.

Part of the problem was that the most extreme lockdown stage was supposed to be much more temporary. There were a list of conditions that needed to be met. More testing, better contact tracing, more PPE for medical workers, etc. And yet, the testing lagged. Americans will resist contact tracing. And we all know about the federal confiscations of PPE and testing supplies. My hospital was supposed to get 200 test kits last week and yet...FEMA took them.

And so here we are with no good exit plan.


Agreed, management and coordination have been a failure - enacting mitigation requires substantive planning and careful execution. Alas that’s what we have.

On the business impact front though, I’m at a loss for the bad planning and mitigation as well. In your neck of the woods, there was a feature on a flower shop on Ashby that wasn’t allowed to do curbside pickup for their products, yet the Whole Foods one parking lot away was allowed to sell flowers. That sums things up in terms of choosing winners and losers economically.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12772
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 8:43 am

Walmart is successful because people go to them. No need to blame politicians or foreigners of whatever. Blame yourself for frequenting them.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 9:08 am

Aesma wrote:
Walmart is successful because people go to them. No need to blame politicians or foreigners of whatever. Blame yourself for frequenting them.


I have not frequented WalMart since buying an emergency windbreaker at one in Honolulu in 2009.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12532
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 9:20 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Walmart is successful because people go to them. No need to blame politicians or foreigners of whatever. Blame yourself for frequenting them.


I have not frequented WalMart since buying an emergency windbreaker at one in Honolulu in 2009.


But many people do. Its like some form of mind control that forces people to buy "Made in the PRC" products, and they have absolutely no choice. Especially not the choice of "not buying".
Its not like consumers could have boycotted companies producing in, or moving factories to, China or anything.....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 11:30 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Walmart is successful because people go to them. No need to blame politicians or foreigners of whatever. Blame yourself for frequenting them.


I have not frequented WalMart since buying an emergency windbreaker at one in Honolulu in 2009.


But many people do. Its like some form of mind control that forces people to buy "Made in the PRC" products, and they have absolutely no choice. Especially not the choice of "not buying".
Its not like consumers could have boycotted companies producing in, or moving factories to, China or anything.....

best regards
Thomas


As I said earlier in the thread, perhaps such consumer behavior to always seek the lowest orice is endemic to a society where consumerism is pushed by all forms of marketing while incomes have not been rising against inflation in 35+ years.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 10676
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 12:48 pm

Part of the issue is that the larger retailers also have the supply chains and resources to help ensure the following.

1. Consistent product availability,
2 .Available staffing to do cleaning
3. ability to quickly adapt to changes in the supply chain.

One can argue Mom and Pop stores have the grit, tenacity, and will power to do the same, but it also comes down to traffic.

Here in NC, many stores are starting to reopen, and next week, unless plans change, all the mom and pop's will be partially open.

One big issue a lot of the owners are having is that their workers don't want to come back until unemployment ends. The extra 600 a week from the cares act gave these workers an incentive to not work as long as they can. This is good for social distancing. However it is bad for the local retailers.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5331
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 2:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Catching up on some segments on various media from business owners in different states, they had a range of reactions to COVID-related challenges - acceptance, frustration, tears, the whole run one would expect. But regardless of region or political stripes, I noticed something else - several comments about unfairness - both in blue and red states. Very similar comments - ‘my business sells X and is closed, but the supermarket/WalMart across the street sells ABC *and* X, and are ‘essential’ so they are open and taking my income away. Why can they stay open and I can’t?’

How did our country arrive at the point where both parties and nearly every state government don’t even bat an eye at watching mom ‘n pop die out to the benefit of ever fewer large chains? Middle class jobs and the ‘American dream’ of offering an essential service to one’s own community will never be able to be ‘great again’ unless we excise this cancer from the politicoeconomic landscape.

The class warfare upon the middle class by the moneyed and powerful has never been more naked in my lifetime.


So, Trump wasn’t a racist when he challenged the Chinese trade policies with trade wars. It was China and many other foreign nations that enabled WalMart, etc.


Have no idea what you’re on about. That statement was never made by me and is plain silly in the context of this topic.


You don’t see the connection between WalMart ET al and cheap Chinese production? The hollowing out of “mom and pop” retail and production in the US is the direct result of offshoring production to China and Asia, in general. Offshoring has made big box possible.

That’s the connection between your class warfare argument and trade.

As to median income, see STL FED.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Mon May 18, 2020 3:16 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

So, Trump wasn’t a racist when he challenged the Chinese trade policies with trade wars. It was China and many other foreign nations that enabled WalMart, etc.


Have no idea what you’re on about. That statement was never made by me and is plain silly in the context of this topic.


You don’t see the connection between WalMart ET al and cheap Chinese production? The hollowing out of “mom and pop” retail and production in the US is the direct result of offshoring production to China and Asia, in general. Offshoring has made big box possible.

That’s the connection between your class warfare argument and trade.

As to median income, see STL FED.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N


Ostensibly, the real connection is in the last paragraph of the OP. As for the data, you have to adjust for purchasing power. The middle class American is not quite caught up to the 1972 peak:

Image
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Wed May 20, 2020 4:40 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Very similar comments - ‘my business sells X and is closed, but the supermarket/WalMart across the street sells ABC *and* X, and are ‘essential’ so they are open and taking my income away. Why can they stay open and I can’t?’

The governor of Michigan tried to avoid this very issue by drawing up lists of essential and non-essential goods. I need not remind you that it led to death threats and an armed invasion of the Michigan state house. Funny how other countries were able to pass similar restrictions as Michigan's without anyone but a handful of fringe lunatics wanting to start a civil war.

Aaron747 wrote:
The class warfare upon the middle class by the moneyed and powerful has never been more naked in my lifetime.

The middle class is where the money is at. It is the job of government to facilitate the transfer of that wealth to corporations and their rich shareholders.

casinterest wrote:
One big issue a lot of the owners are having is that their workers don't want to come back until unemployment ends. The extra 600 a week from the cares act gave these workers an incentive to not work as long as they can. This is good for social distancing. However it is bad for the local retailers.

It is an issue, however some states are addressing it by threatening to end unemployment benefits for workers who refuse to return to their job. I think it's an acceptable approach if implemented with reasonable exceptions for workers in an at-risk group, caring for an immediate family member with a confirmed diagnostic, or in a household with young children and no child care available or other parent to watch over them.

Part of the problem is that the extra $600 allowance was initially intended to be a variable amount, up to $600, to make up the difference between unemployment benefits and previous wages. However many (red) states refuse to invest a penny more than absolutely necessary in their unemployment services, and as a result, run antiquated systems that no one knows how to modify to make that kind of calculation. So it became a fixed amount... And even then some states had to beg long-ago retired programmers to come back and make the necessary changes still.

Another unintended consequence is that some ill-informed employees have actively tried to get themselves fired from their current job to collect unemployment benefits, unaware that in, most states, being fired for cause disqualifies them for unemployment benefits.
 
cairns
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:12 pm

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Fri May 22, 2020 7:23 pm

By moneyed and powerful does he mean Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple and the like? Just what kind of computer is he typing on? Mom and Pop's?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Fri May 22, 2020 11:49 pm

cairns wrote:
By moneyed and powerful does he mean Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple and the like? Just what kind of computer is he typing on? Mom and Pop's?


Vested financial interests that continue to promote offshoring amid limited wage growth, fixated on next-Q results instead of long term stability. Only one of the companies you named above can be reasonably accused of having compensation or stock-chase issues. And I built my PC, how about you?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
cairns
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:12 pm

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Fri May 22, 2020 11:59 pm

And what did you build your PC with? Do you manufacture plastics, computer chips, wiring and keyboards all by yourself? Surely you didn't buy them from "moneyed interests". Maybe you can name some of those firms that don't plan on long term stability... I'd love to know which ones plan to go out of business.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 11595
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: The Business Class Divide in America

Sat May 23, 2020 12:14 am

cairns wrote:
And what did you build your PC with? Do you manufacture plastics, computer chips, wiring and keyboards all by yourself? Surely you didn't buy them from "moneyed interests". Maybe you can name some of those firms that don't plan on long term stability... I'd love to know which ones plan to go out of business.


Now you’re just intentionally deflecting from the topic - which was the how and why of limited middle class wage growth since the late 1970s, and current favoritism by both parties toward large chains over small businesses when both sell the same things.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, aerosreenivas, Aesma, B717fan, casinterest, lugie, mad99, Mani87 and 65 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos