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Aaron747
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US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Fri May 22, 2020 10:56 am

With the latest Fox News poll showing waning GOP support for Trump (GOP disapproval up to 17%) and cratering support with suburban women (67% disapproval), there are several hot topics on conservative media this week that are eye-catching.

https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1 ... 4451607552

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-ne ... on-economy

Two commentary items of note portend a battle that may play out within the GOP long after this November. Nancy Reagan speechwriter Mona Charen's comments on holocaust denial amongst Trump-supporter fanatics on the party fringe:

Trump defenders will no doubt protest that Trump knew nothing of Malkin’s descent into neo-Nazi land; that he was merely endorsing her complaint about discrimination against conservative voices. Or they may object that Trump was taken in by the title “America First Clips,” assuming that a group using his tagline must be okay.

But that’s no excuse at all. In fact, Trump probably did not know much about those he praised, either Malkin or, by extension, Fuentes. But he has a duty to know. Yes, he’s an indolent ignoramus, but guess what, the taxpayers are paying for a huge staff. He has people who can check. He doesn’t use them because he doesn’t care. His moral reasoning is primitive. If you are pro-Trump, no matter what else you are (a murderous dictator, a racist troll), you’re fine in his book. A bunch of loutish protesters harass a TV journalist using the F words (“fake news” and the other one), and Trump proclaims them “great people.” He has no objective moral standards. Everything is about him. On a scale of moral reasoning, he is subzero.


https://thebulwark.com/is-holocaust-den ... ative-now/

And the mantle of what conservative values actually are and should be, here from quotes selected by conservative historian Joshua Tait:

“To buy into Trump,” he says, “you have to believe that the essence of what the Republican Party stood for—personal responsibility, embracing of legal immigration, character counts, strong on Russia—you have to believe that all of that was just a marketing slogan and it didn’t mean anything—any more than ‘We say, “Chevrolet’s the heartbeat of America.”’”

What’s more, Trump has “made every critic of the Republican Party right”—all the critics who “said the Republican Party really didn’t care about people, that it wasn’t a party that was inclusive. Just go down the list—‘doesn’t respect women.’ He’s made all that true. And he made all the wrong people right.”


https://thebulwark.com/never-trumpers-a ... servatism/

It seems the fundamental question before conservatives now is whether or not they want to be taken seriously as a party of morals - because that dog just don't hunt for apologist remarks for neo-Nazi wackos and abandoning long-cherished values.
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casinterest
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Fri May 22, 2020 2:30 pm

This is a long recurring theme under Trump. The bargain with the devil that conservatives wanted. However the issue with that Bargain is that the Conservative party of the GOP has been bulked up and is in danger of being lost to the lunatic fringe populists that are on a slippery slop to undermining their own core values. They were for fiscal conservatism until it came time to cut the budget. They were in favor of free trade until it came time to prop up the areas where their demographics were on the edge. They were for environmental protection, until it came time to protect profits for the big polluters and donors. In a party where everything is for sale at a price, morals and convictions do not last.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Fri May 22, 2020 3:14 pm

The current Republican party cannot win without the 5-15 percent of voters who really are neo-fascists. Every society and culture has them. In the past they wanted a bone or two tossed in their direction, now they want the whole body politic.
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Tugger
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Fri May 22, 2020 4:22 pm

A lot of his supporters are wannabes. They aren't actually Republican's, they are MAGA's really. They support Trump not the Republican party or Republican ideals (or Christian ideals).

The other group that is in the "deal with the devil" are Christians/evangelicals. They got a right leaning absolutist which they wanted, but got a whole bunch more that they don't.

The wannabes will remain with him as they have nothing else really, they are nothing really. No compass, no real desire beyond "Trump" since he is willing to play to them to gain their fawning adoration and support. But the evangelicals are I think not solid anymore, sick of his endless sh!t.

The other groups the support him are as noted above mostly in flux at in play for what they will support in November.

Tugg
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Newark727
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Fri May 22, 2020 4:48 pm

Tugger wrote:
A lot of his supporters are wannabes. They aren't actually Republican's, they are MAGA's really. They support Trump not the Republican party or Republican ideals (or Christian ideals).

The other group that is in the "deal with the devil" are Christians/evangelicals. They got a right leaning absolutist which they wanted, but got a whole bunch more that they don't.

The wannabes will remain with him as they have nothing else really, they are nothing really. No compass, no real desire beyond "Trump" since he is willing to play to them to gain their fawning adoration and support. But the evangelicals are I think not solid anymore, sick of his endless sh!t.

The other groups the support him are as noted above mostly in flux at in play for what they will support in November.

Tugg


I think that ultimately, the wannabes and the evangelicals are one and the same. For decades, they've traded any ethical nuance of their faith for political power. They have political power beyond what they might have imagined in the 1970s, but at the cost of utter moral vacuity. There's far too much spite and pride at play to ever give it up, though, so with Trump they remain.
 
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seb146
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Fri May 22, 2020 4:57 pm

I can see Romney leading a split in the Republican party. He has been taking a stand and sounding like a Reagan Republican. This country does not do well with third parties so I wish him well if he decides to bring the Republican party back to what it once was.

I have noticed something with some MAGA supporters. They are stuck. They want things one way and that's all they can deal with. They refuse to abandon their leader because he says what they want to hear which is not always what they believe. But they don't really have a choice. They see what happens to people who disagree with him so they are stuck. I think, in the privacy of the voting booth, they will either hold their nose and vote Democrat or hold their nose and vote third party.
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Kent350787
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Sat May 23, 2020 12:03 am

seb146 wrote:
I can see Romney leading a split in the Republican party. He has been taking a stand and sounding like a Reagan Republican. This country does not do well with third parties so I wish him well if he decides to bring the Republican party back to what it once was.


To think that we're reached a point in history where the phrase "Reagan Republican" can be used postively by non-Republicans ......
 
LCDFlight
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Sat May 23, 2020 5:48 pm

seb146 wrote:
I can see Romney leading a split in the Republican party. He has been taking a stand and sounding like a Reagan Republican. This country does not do well with third parties so I wish him well if he decides to bring the Republican party back to what it once was.

I have noticed something with some MAGA supporters. They are stuck. They want things one way and that's all they can deal with. They refuse to abandon their leader because he says what they want to hear which is not always what they believe. But they don't really have a choice. They see what happens to people who disagree with him so they are stuck. I think, in the privacy of the voting booth, they will either hold their nose and vote Democrat or hold their nose and vote third party.


Well, I think they are really 3 parties. On the left side, you have populists Bernie and AOC. In the middle-right (which is elitist and corporate), you have Mitt Romney, Biden, the Bush family, the Clintons and the Obamas. And on the populist right, you have Trump populism.

There have been cases (such as trade with China) where Trump was solidly to the left of his competitor in the middle-right party, namely Hillary Clinton. It is not really clear to me that Trump is to the right of Biden either. Biden will have the support of corporations and the wealthy. His immigration plan will be far more libertarian and open than Trump. Similarly his trade plan. But, I would concede that Trump is definitely to the right of Bernie and AOC.

Trump vs Biden will be center-right versus populist right, the elitists versus the populists. It will bea re peat of 2016. It will be a close contest, because Trump can get populists who are tired of the elitists. And Biden right now is trying to figure out if he picks a left running mate (tapping into populism) or somebody like Sen Susan Collins (R).
 
TangoandCash
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Sat May 23, 2020 6:24 pm

The GOP still has a soul? I thought they sold that years ago...
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Sat May 23, 2020 7:36 pm

My fantasy candidate was Romney running as a Democrat. He was a pretty successful governor of Massachusetts, and comfortable with a number of liberal policies. Democrats are, if you scratch the surface, a fairly conservative bunch. Had he announced support for leftist policies he supported while governor, but noted that he would govern as a conservative progressive I think he could have gotten the Democratic nomination and won.
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seb146
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Sun May 24, 2020 12:01 am

Republicans have pushed this country farther and farther to the right. Romney could not run as a Democrat on a national scale because of his track record of standing solidly with Republicans. The biggest reason he would get votes from centrists is he has spoken out against the current occupant of the White House. He has been too right and too corporatism to pull many Democratic voters. Romney could, however, run as a Democrat for governor of Utah or Kansas or some right wing state and unite that state. But, on a federal level at this time, he would not be able to do it.

Yes, there are several different groups under the Democratic umbrella. I think that is part of the problem with Democrats. They do not have one clear message like Republicans do. They do not have the "my way or the highway" attitude of Republicans. They want everyone to have a say and that just gets too confusing. I think this notion of "my way or the highway" with Republicans is starting to take it's toll on the party. Some Republican voters are starting to find they are being left behind and shut out.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Sun May 24, 2020 1:47 am

I wasn't clear, Romney is out of the picture, but 20-30 years ago he wasn't. I suspect he will be a good senator - for as long as he wants the job.
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Aaron747
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Sun May 24, 2020 2:13 am

TangoandCash wrote:
The GOP still has a soul? I thought they sold that years ago...


Anyone who is still Republican participating in this thread seem to be great Americans...at least to me.

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 40384?s=21
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kaitak
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Re: US Conservatives Battle For GOP's Soul Over Holocaust Denial and Values

Mon May 25, 2020 7:55 am

The more I see Trump in action - the more I learn about him and his (lack of) principles, integrity (same), personal qualities (same), the more I begin to see that when the Russians got involved in the election back in 2016, it was not just a question of keeping Hilary out, but very much also of making sure Trump got in.

I don't believe that he was aware of this, i.e. there was no meeting with the Russians in which he was given a "to do list", but he was very much a useful idiot. They needed someone with no principles, someone who was vain enough to believe that he was doing all of this himself and someone with a track record that suggested an ethical void. They had the measure of him for a long, long time; they knew he had an interest in politics and it was only a question of time before they began to manoeuvre him towards the top job. They knew that they didn't have to give him a "to do" list; all they wanted was for him to be himself - applying the same principles and behaviors to US politics as he did in his business dealings. Did they knew about his far right leanings? Probably not, but they probably wouldn't be surprised; they could take a hit on sanctions too, because - playing the long game - four years of Trump in charge of America would cause more damage to America and its standing in the world than they ever could.

Now, maybe the foregoing is going a bit too far? I don't think so, but here's the thing: if I despised America, if I wished it ill, if I wanted the worst for America, I would be supporting Trump. There are those Republicans who would argue, "well, I don't so much support him, but I like his government's policies". Maybe they have done some good in certain areas, but for a country to feel good about itself, its leader needs to have values, needs to have a moral compass and principles which are in some way parallel with national values and how the country sees itself. I don't see how Trump evokes or represents any true American values.

Frankly, I'm surprised that evangelicals have stuck with him so long. Of all the stomach churning photos I've seen of Trump, the one with the "laying on of hands" by evangelical leaders is the one that sticks in my mind the most, because of the character of Trump, as far away as one can conceivably get from Christian values and they backed that guy all the way - the Vice President, too, with all his "Christian first, American second" BS ... silent when it really mattered, when he lied, when he separated children from their parents and all the other nasty things he did. The chickens are coming home to roost ...

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