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AA747123
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German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Fri May 22, 2020 2:33 pm

At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s
Last edited by SQ22 on Fri May 22, 2020 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title was wrong
 
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Aesma
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 2:48 pm

I think you're getting ahead of yourself here.

They're closed due to the pandemic so there is no need to act fast. And such a decision will face a lot of opposition.

In France it was done in the aftermath of WW2, much easier.

A few years ago buying sex was also banned, that was more difficult to pass, is still not widely accepted, and has just made things go a bit more underground. From time to time someone gets caught and pays the 1500€ fine.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 3:17 pm

AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s

Why is it a good thing?

Fred
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DTVG
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Fri May 22, 2020 4:35 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s

Why is it a good thing?

Fred


Yes, I’m also curious.

Where I live a lot of women working in the business would disagree that this is a good thing.
 
AA747123
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 4:52 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s

Why is it a good thing?

Fred


There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 4:55 pm

AA747123 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s

Why is it a good thing?

Fred


There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it


Trafficking is a problem whether prostitution is legal or not.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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seb146
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 5:01 pm

AA747123 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s

Why is it a good thing?

Fred


There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it


It is illegal in the United States. Nevada has strict laws regarding prostitution. And it works. Human trafficking happens anyway. There are ways to combat that while allowing consenting adults to do what they please.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 5:15 pm

AA747123 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s

Why is it a good thing?

Fred


There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it


It's quite sweet that you think making paying for sex illegal will stop prostitution and human trafficking. It's not called the oldest profession for nothing.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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blueflyer
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 5:23 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Why is it a good thing?

Fred


There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it


Trafficking is a problem whether prostitution is legal or not.

It seems there are two divergent opinions among experts and stakeholders, one being that making prostitution illegal does reduce the supply, and correspondingly the number of trafficked women. Another is that making prostitution illegal also makes it harder to uncover and dismantle trafficking organizations. I'm not smart enough to know who is right.

I suspect the best solution will involve legalization with licensing requirements. Providers would have to obtain a license under conditions set to try and identify victims of trafficking (legal proof of age and local residence, applying in person and alone, knowing a local language, etc.), and another purpose of the license would be to transfer the burden of enforcement on customers. Make commercial sex with an unlicensed provider a crime punishable with a minimum of 60 days in jail, set up a few well publicized stings (are you paying attention Dateline), perhaps the demand for trafficked prostitutes will decrease.…
 
YokoTsuno
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 5:26 pm

AA747123 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it
According to that logic we should ban all professions, since abuse exists in virtually all industries.

It is not a matter of making it legal or illegal, but making it a perfectly acceptable profession. Humans love to complicate matters. Is there a fundamental difference between charging for use of one's brain or hands as compared to charging for your private parts. The problems precisely exist because it is not seen as normal profession.
 
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Aesma
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Fri May 22, 2020 5:33 pm

blueflyer : I think that's what German (and Belgian, Swiss, Spanish...) brothels are there for.
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 5:58 pm

blueflyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AA747123 wrote:

There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it


Trafficking is a problem whether prostitution is legal or not.

It seems there are two divergent opinions among experts and stakeholders, one being that making prostitution illegal does reduce the supply, and correspondingly the number of trafficked women. Another is that making prostitution illegal also makes it harder to uncover and dismantle trafficking organizations. I'm not smart enough to know who is right.

I suspect the best solution will involve legalization with licensing requirements. Providers would have to obtain a license under conditions set to try and identify victims of trafficking (legal proof of age and local residence, applying in person and alone, knowing a local language, etc.), and another purpose of the license would be to transfer the burden of enforcement on customers. Make commercial sex with an unlicensed provider a crime punishable with a minimum of 60 days in jail, set up a few well publicized stings (are you paying attention Dateline), perhaps the demand for trafficked prostitutes will decrease.…


I’m not an expert either, but I think what you have outlined is right on the money.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 6:06 pm

blueflyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AA747123 wrote:

There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it


Trafficking is a problem whether prostitution is legal or not.

It seems there are two divergent opinions among experts and stakeholders, one being that making prostitution illegal does reduce the supply, and correspondingly the number of trafficked women. Another is that making prostitution illegal also makes it harder to uncover and dismantle trafficking organizations. I'm not smart enough to know who is right.

I suspect the best solution will involve legalization with licensing requirements. Providers would have to obtain a license under conditions set to try and identify victims of trafficking (legal proof of age and local residence, applying in person and alone, knowing a local language, etc.), and another purpose of the license would be to transfer the burden of enforcement on customers. Make commercial sex with an unlicensed provider a crime punishable with a minimum of 60 days in jail, set up a few well publicized stings (are you paying attention Dateline), perhaps the demand for trafficked prostitutes will decrease.…


Why is it the government's business what consenting adults do in their bedrooms with their own bodies?

Why would a "license" of any kind be required? Police state mentality.

Ordinarily I agree the government can regulate business for tax purposes. But, the government should not regulate people's sex lives. It should rely on other laws, such as laws against human trafficing. k
 
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lugie
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 6:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Why is it a good thing?

Fred


There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it


It's quite sweet that you think making paying for sex illegal will stop prostitution and human trafficking. It's not called the oldest profession for nothing.


To be honest, even if you're not naive enough to think that outlawing prostitution will end sex trafficking for good I do believe that there's a point to be made about it reducing demand and thus maybe reducing the scale of it.

I'm not saying this is the ultimate truth, and please do not take this as an offense to your perspective (which on around 99% of your other posts in this forum I agree with), but I feel like the full legalization of prostitution in Germany has expanded the market to sectors that otherwise would never have thought about engaging in it, not unlike the often-quoted "Ryanair effect" on secondary and tertiary air travel markets:

While I personally and my close circle of friends has never, and (at least speaking for myself) will never seek these kinds of services, there are places where and people for who going for a quick f*ck at the end of a night out is just part of the experience.
In Hamburg's Reeperbahn red light districts there are places with names like "Geizhaus"(stinginess house) which advertises sex at rates of under 30€ a pop and where people line up waiting outside at certain hours of the night. This can hardly be in the interest of sex workers and their living conditions.
Now, while some of these people might also be willing to commit a crime to get off if prostitution was illegal, I'd argue that the vast majority of patrons just goes there because they can, perpetuating and exacerbating the suffering of these women, and creating demand for even more women to "work" in these conditions.
Similar to how you see people who maybe touched a bong once in their life (at home, where it's criminalized) spend the entirety of their Amsterdam (or Colorado) getaway stoned, simply because they can.
Does that mean that weed criminalization stops people from using it? No, but under a regime of legality the percentage of people willing to at least try it is likely higher than under criminalization. With the slight difference that as opposed to sex work, cannabis doesn't cause human trafficking.

So should it be abolished for good? I'm not sure, but I definitely don't share the enthusiasm of many on the left about "legalizing sex work".
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flipdewaf
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Fri May 22, 2020 6:26 pm

lugie wrote:
Now, while some of these people might also be willing to commit a crime to get off if prostitution was illegal, I'd argue that the vast majority of patrons just goes there because they can, perpetuating and exacerbating the suffering of these women, and creating demand for even more women to "work" in these conditions.
do you think having it as a recognised profession would lead to greater or lower welfare conditions and regulations or would stigmatising the profession and causing all aspects to be illegal regardless of condition create less harm?

There is an argument to say that Ryanair shouldn’t open up these flights to tertiary destinations because of climate change? Should we outlaw that?

Fred


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lugie
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Fri May 22, 2020 7:14 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
do you think having it as a recognised profession would lead to greater or lower welfare conditions and regulations or would stigmatising the profession and causing all aspects to be illegal regardless of condition create less harm?


Well ideally the former should happen but empirically here in Germany it doesn't appear like it really has.
I'm not sure if fully criminalizing it would eliminate all the negative side effects but I do think it would reduce the scale of human trafficking and abusive work environments.

flipdewaf wrote:
There is an argument to say that Ryanair shouldn’t open up these flights to tertiary destinations because of climate change? Should we outlaw that?


I feel like the better analogy here would be aviation as a whole being akin to sex work as a whole, an industry that should be open to business for everyone but also one that has a lot of problematic potential (sex work -> large potential for exploitation, problematic image of women; aviation -> environmental damage).
Ryanair with the way it treats employees and often services tertiary markets only as long as they receive enough local subsidies (or only serve large hubs like FRA only if given preferential conditions on landing fees etc) would probably fit those establishments operating at the edge of legality in this analogy and I guess as such might be the first ones to have their business practice outlawed.

But again, this is only my perspective on a very complex and multifaceted issue.
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ltbewr
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Fri May 22, 2020 8:07 pm

There are mental and physical health, ethical and moral issues with legalized sex prostitution in some countries like in Europe discussed here and elsewhere. I don't think a return to prohibition of prostitution will be in society's best interest.

Currently the Pandemic has shut down all of the legal forms, although I suspect a lot of illegal prostitution is still happening. Much of the legal and illegal sex prostitution has gone online, the numbers of houses and booths like in Germany and The Netherlands are flat or declining. Likely after dealing with large amounts of pent up demand after the Pandemic is 'over', a decline will take place, more shifting to online. I would be concerned that many new prostitutes enter the market, possible exploited by sex traffickers due to poverty, not enough decent paying jobs and traffickers seeking money.

I think one trend we could see as to legal prostitution is a move to more discretely marked 'houses' and away from neon/lLED lit up 'spas' in Germany and window booths like in Amsterdam. You would shop online for a house, make an appointment time range to visit, pay online for an 'admission' fee of like 20 Euro, go in with rooms with the prostitute in them waiting to choose them. I believe that is already done in some countries. The Prostitutes would be licensed, protected from violence and theft, the houses well regulated to limit sexual trafficking and neighborhoods not having it 'in their face'.
 
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Fri May 22, 2020 9:35 pm

AA747123 wrote:
There is a huge amount sex trafficking from Eastern Europe countries. That is reason enough to ban it

Human trafficking is rampant. Ban all sex work so that it doesn't happen, regardless of whether there are nefarious intentions or not.

Mass shootings happen almost on a weekly basis. We can't ban guns. We can't penalize good gun owners, and besides, bad guys will always break the law.

Fascinating, isn't it?
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Fri May 22, 2020 10:29 pm

So Germany now has joined the impressive list of countries that think that they can end the world's oldest profession.

Mind you, I personally have no interest in paying for any kind of sex (it would make me feel gross), but this is pointless. There are much better ways to handle human trafficking.
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MrHMSH
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Sat May 23, 2020 3:04 am

I don't think I'm in favour of outlawing prostitution, legalising it would allow you to better control trafficking, you have a much better chance of ensuring good working conditions for the workers and you can get revenues if you tax it. I'm not really in favour of using those services personally, but many are, and I don't see why it's fair to stop people paying for a service as long as it's consensual. Trafficking will not go away as there will always be people wanting to pay for sex, making it illegal just makes it harder to regulate and protect the workers.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sat May 23, 2020 3:54 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Why is it the government's business what consenting adults do in their bedrooms with their own bodies?

Why would a "license" of any kind be required? Police state mentality.

Ordinarily I agree the government can regulate business for tax purposes. But, the government should not regulate people's sex lives. It should rely on other laws, such as laws against human trafficing. k

Laws have so far not been very efficient at curbing human trafficking because the best evidence occurs in the privacy of rooms that one would hope are always occupied by consenting adults, yet are frequently not. Even measures outside the law have had limited effect at best (training flight attendants to recognize potential victims, posting signs inside bathroom stalls in international airports and train stations, etc.). The vast majority of the efforts so far have been targeted at cutting off the supply. Switching to a model of licensed providers and making customers responsible for the "enforcement" is a way to depress the accidental-yet-very-real demand for sex trafficking.

I could see how some "legitimate" sex providers (not victims of trafficking) might object to having to register for a license, however on the flip side, they would no longer have to fear harassment from the police, and they would benefit from a reduced supply, therefore higher prices, if the measure is effective at curbing human trafficking.

Aesma wrote:
blueflyer : I think that's what German (and Belgian, Swiss, Spanish...) brothels are there for.

For at least two of these countries, I am fairly confident that while prostitution may be legal, brothels are not but are tolerated and officially registered as something other than brothel (bar, etc.). Police and code enforcement are intentionally more tolerant in certain neighborhoods to concentrate these activities in specific pockets that are easier to monitor and control. I was once dropped off in one of these neighborhoods by my Uber driver in Brussels when the main entrance to a train station was closed due to protests and the back entrance was in the middle of that neighborhood. Plenty of shops advertising themselves as bars with floor-to-ceiling windows revealing neon lighting and scantily clad women.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Sat May 23, 2020 7:25 am

AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s


Why is it a good thing? Making it illegal drives the industry underground and endangers more people. If properly controlled it works. Closing it down will put a lot of women out of work.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sat May 23, 2020 7:29 am

LCDFlight wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Trafficking is a problem whether prostitution is legal or not.

It seems there are two divergent opinions among experts and stakeholders, one being that making prostitution illegal does reduce the supply, and correspondingly the number of trafficked women. Another is that making prostitution illegal also makes it harder to uncover and dismantle trafficking organizations. I'm not smart enough to know who is right.

I suspect the best solution will involve legalization with licensing requirements. Providers would have to obtain a license under conditions set to try and identify victims of trafficking (legal proof of age and local residence, applying in person and alone, knowing a local language, etc.), and another purpose of the license would be to transfer the burden of enforcement on customers. Make commercial sex with an unlicensed provider a crime punishable with a minimum of 60 days in jail, set up a few well publicized stings (are you paying attention Dateline), perhaps the demand for trafficked prostitutes will decrease.…


Why is it the government's business what consenting adults do in their bedrooms with their own bodies?

Why would a "license" of any kind be required? Police state mentality.

Ordinarily I agree the government can regulate business for tax purposes. But, the government should not regulate people's sex lives. It should rely on other laws, such as laws against human trafficing. k


If you can license it you can tax it, everyone wins.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sat May 23, 2020 8:12 am

lugie wrote:
To be honest, even if you're not naive enough to think that outlawing prostitution will end sex trafficking for good I do believe that there's a point to be made about it reducing demand and thus maybe reducing the scale of it.


To be clear, I think human trafficking is abhorrent and everything possible should be done to stop it. However, suddenly making something illegal rarely does anything to dampen demand and possibly even stimulates demand and criminality (prohibition springs to mind).

lugie wrote:
So should it be abolished for good? I'm not sure, but I definitely don't share the enthusiasm of many on the left about "legalizing sex work".


I feel trying to abolish prostitution is only going to make the situation worse for the sex workers. On the other hand, there is an argument that properly legalised and regulated sex work would offer significant benefits to all involved and might help to reduce some of the less savoury aspects of the trade. I appreciate neither solution is without challenges.
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rlwynn
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sat May 23, 2020 2:09 pm

blueflyer wrote:
I am fairly confident that while prostitution may be legal, brothels are not but are tolerated .


Of course they are legal. You could open one and name it Fuck Haus if you wanted.
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Sokes
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Sat May 23, 2020 3:23 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s


Why is it a good thing? Making it illegal drives the industry underground and endangers more people. If properly controlled it works. Closing it down will put a lot of women out of work.

It takes 22 posts to come to sexual transmitted diseases.
Prostitutes need a licence. They are regular checked for sexual transmitted diseases. How many wives with unfaithful husbands would suffer from prohibition?
I am a firm believer in the ethics of responsibility. And sometimes I really struggle to tolerate "ethics of ultimate end" views.

For the German speakers here I recommend "Der Strich" of the Vienna sociologist Roland Girtler. He had a long hospital stay and shared a room with somebody who became a big shot in Vienna's criminal scene. So he has access to groups the average sociologist won't get easily. Clearly he enjoys provocations. I once had the pleasure to attend to a speech of his. He started to juggle with balls. ("A sociologist has to be able to offer something. Therefore I learned juggling. You want to
see it?") His stories were even better. As funny as science gets.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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seb146
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Sat May 23, 2020 3:46 pm

DocLightning wrote:
So Germany now has joined the impressive list of countries that think that they can end the world's oldest profession.


When did the topic change to fruit sales? ;)

DocLightning wrote:
Mind you, I personally have no interest in paying for any kind of sex (it would make me feel gross), but this is pointless. There are much better ways to handle human trafficking.


I had a hard time in my post making this point. There are ways to have prostitution and still deal with human trafficking. But an outright ban on all prostitution is not the right way to do it. Let consenting adults do what they want.

There are safe drop sites for women who can not care for their baby, maybe the same thing should be done for people who are trafficked? Those who want out but are abused or minors can find a safe house or something and leave the adults alone?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sat May 23, 2020 3:49 pm

In France it's the left wing that has banned buying sex, not the "family values" right-wing...

I find human trafficking, or even just regular pimping, isn't treated as it should in my country. Pimps get ridiculously mild sentences, even for things like having prostituted several minor girls, they do it again, again get a mild sentence, it's pathetic. To me it should be treated as harshly as rape if not harsher.

blueflyer wrote:
For at least two of these countries, I am fairly confident that while prostitution may be legal, brothels are not but are tolerated and officially registered as something other than brothel (bar, etc.). Police and code enforcement are intentionally more tolerant in certain neighborhoods to concentrate these activities in specific pockets that are easier to monitor and control. I was once dropped off in one of these neighborhoods by my Uber driver in Brussels when the main entrance to a train station was closed due to protests and the back entrance was in the middle of that neighborhood. Plenty of shops advertising themselves as bars with floor-to-ceiling windows revealing neon lighting and scantily clad women.


You don't call a brothel "brothel". That doesn't mean it isn't registered as such. If it was done on the DL, there wouldn't be these windows. In fact isn't that a typically Belgian and Dutch thing ?

By contrast in France if you rent an apartment to a prostitute, you can end up in jail.
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Dutchy
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Sat May 23, 2020 3:58 pm

AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s


Uhmmm, 16 MEP's out of the 598 members have send a letter. Ok, do we even have to talk about this?

Anyhow, what problem would something like this solve in the real world, in your eyes? And what would it cost in terms of human cost.
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Sokes
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sun May 24, 2020 6:31 am

Aesma wrote:

I find human trafficking, or even just regular pimping, isn't treated as it should in my country. Pimps get ridiculously mild sentences, even for things like having prostituted several minor girls, they do it again, again get a mild sentence, it's pathetic. To me it should be treated as harshly as rape if not harsher.

From memory of more than 20 years back IIRC Roland Girtler wrote that the typical pimp has only one prostitute. That's because he is giving emotional support and a relationship to her. Girtler wrote pimpfs look out for rural young women who look a bit lost in the big city. After establishing a relationship they will first convince them to have sex with a friend. Later follows prostitution.
I believe somebody capable of attachment won't enjoy it. I never went to a prostitute, but I once cheated on an early girlfriend. I felt bad about it. But then I don't want to miss the experience, for my opinion is based on experience/ evidence, not assumptions.

Why should a woman incapable of attachment not make easy money in prostitution?
Somewhere else I read that nymphomaniac women tend to become prostitutes.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JJJ
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sun May 24, 2020 9:42 am

Sokes wrote:
.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?


Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living.

But there are also many (especially foreign) women who are brought into prostitution by a combination of threats, intimidation, shady debts incurred in irregular circumstances, etc.

It's extremely hard to make a one size fits all for these two very different groups.
 
Sokes
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sun May 24, 2020 11:10 am

JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?


Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living.

But there are also many (especially foreign) women who are brought into prostitution by a combination of threats, intimidation, shady debts incurred in irregular circumstances, etc.

It's extremely hard to make a one size fits all for these two very different groups.

Maybe it's an area of the economy that should better be run by government owned enterprises.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22170
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Sun May 24, 2020 5:23 pm

Sokes wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?


Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living.

But there are also many (especially foreign) women who are brought into prostitution by a combination of threats, intimidation, shady debts incurred in irregular circumstances, etc.

It's extremely hard to make a one size fits all for these two very different groups.

Maybe it's an area of the economy that should better be run by government owned enterprises.


There should be some regulation. Age requirements and STI tests, that sort of thing. And there should be an agency where someone can go who wants to get out. Especially for those who are under age or abused. I don't know what more could really be done. Maybe make it up to the individual states or districts? Like the United States did with alcohol. Some counties do not allow sales at all while others allow sales 24 hours a day and others are anywhere in between.

I would never go to a prostitute. I don't see the point. But if others want to, let them. As long as they are all consenting, why is this even an issue?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
rlwynn
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Sun May 24, 2020 5:54 pm

For those of you clueless about how it is in Germany but think to seem to know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitut ... ection_Act
I can drive faster than you
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12747
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Mon May 25, 2020 7:12 am

flipdewaf wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
At least one good thing from the COVID pandemic

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers- ... iamUNwtn9s

Why is it a good thing?

Fred


taking rights from women away is always fine in some peoples book.....
And it probably won´t survive its date in front of the constitutional court. If the service/product is legal, making paying for it illegal is not really going to stand.

"Yeah, you have your constitutionally guaranteed right to chose your job as you see fit, we are just going to prosecute your customers..... "

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12747
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Mon May 25, 2020 7:56 am

JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?


Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living..


:checkmark: two good friends of mine used to make money that way, one to get through university with a very flexible job that pays well per hour, one to make a little extra on top of her regular income. Neither one had anyone involved in that decision, and they kept the money they made for themselves. Which was good, since my computer decided to buy it while i was writing my thesis, and the first just bought me a new computer (well, board/CPU/RAM), as a "late thank" you for me helping her to set up a website a few years before. ...... i think a friend getting laid for ~two days to buy me a new computer is probably still the most effort a friend went though to do me a favor.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Mon May 25, 2020 12:11 pm

rlwynn wrote:
For those of you clueless about how it is in Germany but think to seem to know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitut ... ection_Act

I read Girtler's book about Vienna maybe 20 years back. What took Germany so long?
A health check every one year? That was much stricter in Austria, though I don't remember how often. Isn't the main point of registration to do frequent health checks?

I have to revoke my idea of having government owned businesses for it. I forgot Girtler wrote that becoming a pimpf is a way for criminals to stay out of jail. So thanks to all those who go to prostitutes for keeping me save from robberies.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Mon May 25, 2020 12:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
i think a friend getting laid for ~two days to buy me a new computer is probably still the most effort a friend went though to do me a favor.

best regards
Thomas

May god bless her.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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seb146
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Mon May 25, 2020 5:29 pm

The town where I grew up has a large underground tour. Pendleton was the wild west for many decades. Asians were not allowed on the street after sundown, so they built an entire city under downtown Pendleton. They did several jobs in their underground. People have come together and restored parts of the underground city. Fascinating tour. One part of the tour is the "Cozy Rooms" brothel. There were several brothels there until the 1950s. On thing I found interesting is that some of the men who visited were not there for sex. Some men simply wanted a lady to talk to.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Mon May 25, 2020 6:09 pm

Aesma wrote:
You don't call a brothel "brothel". That doesn't mean it isn't registered as such. If it was done on the DL, there wouldn't be these windows. In fact isn't that a typically Belgian and Dutch thing ?
By contrast in France if you rent an apartment to a prostitute, you can end up in jail.

If you believe Wikipedia, it is the same thing in Belgium actually. Prostitution is legal, but pimping, providing a premise, etc. are not. You have to recall there is a difference between laws and their enforcement. It looks as though law enforcement throughout Belgium prefers to have illegal brothels concentrated in specific neighborhood where they can be monitored and controlled, rather than have all prostitution move underground where it is harder to control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Belgium

Maybe selective enforcement on that scale is a Belgian thing, I wouldn't know. However I recall when I lived there many years ago, politicians were debating whether or not to legalize abortion, and from all the conversations around it, it came out that abortions were already widely available from doctors. Laws against abortion were selectively enforced against "back alley" providers but prosecutors generally did not go after doctors providing abortion in a safe, medical environment.
 
Redd
Posts: 1207
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Mon May 25, 2020 7:48 pm

Aside from Mao's prohibition of Opium in China in 1949, has prohibition ever worked with anything?
 
Sokes
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Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Tue May 26, 2020 2:18 am

Redd wrote:
Aside from Mao's prohibition of Opium in China in 1949, has prohibition ever worked with anything?

I suppose for all the hard drugs the answer is yes. I wouldn't like an adolescence to have easy access to hard drugs.
Has any society tried to prohibit alcohol with the exception of beer? I read Mohammed's original prohibition of alcohol referred to drinks made from grapes and dates. It did not refer to starch based alcohols. I know, Whiskey is starch based.
I never thought of it earlier, but since I live in India I believe hard liquor should be prohibited.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
AA747123
Topic Author
Posts: 278
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Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Tue May 26, 2020 2:51 am

JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?


Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living.

But there are also many (especially foreign) women who are brought into prostitution by a combination of threats, intimidation, shady debts incurred in irregular circumstances, etc.

It's extremely hard to make a one size fits all for these two very different groups.


With all due respect, no woman really "chooses" to go into prostitution and sell their bodies. For one reason or another they are more or less forced into it because it may be the lesser of two evils. I actually became friends with a woman that was "formally" in the sex business and it was the worst two years of her life. I do think that is cases of prostitution it is fair to only prosecute the man, as the woman is considered a victim. She is being taken advantage of in a position of weakness, which is human trafficking.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12747
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Tue May 26, 2020 4:29 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
i think a friend getting laid for ~two days to buy me a new computer is probably still the most effort a friend went though to do me a favor.

best regards
Thomas

May god bless her.


I have seen her in Bikinis. She did.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12747
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Tue May 26, 2020 4:37 am

AA747123 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?


Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living.


With all due respect, no woman really "chooses" to go into prostitution and sell their bodies..


Meanwhile, in the real world, that is just not true. And pretty hostile towards women to woman to say that..

Sometimes i think man so priggish about what woman do and don´t do out of their free choice are just jealous that women can charge that much for their body, while man can´t.

Legal prostitution is the only effective means of fighting human trafficking alongside a hard crackdown on pimps. US politics on prostitution can only be explained by religious fundamentalism and Pimps probably donating to political campaigns. By keeping prostitution illegal, they can serve both masters at the same time, with the pimps quite happy about their christian Taliban, as they are good customers too.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Tue May 26, 2020 5:02 am

AA747123 wrote:
I do think that is cases of prostitution it is fair to only prosecute the man, as the woman is considered a victim. She is being taken advantage of in a position of weakness, which is human trafficking.

With man, do you mean pimp or customer?

"The madam/pimp–prostitute relationship is often understood to be abusive and possessive, with the pimp/madam using techniques such as psychological intimidation, manipulation, starvation, rape and/or gang rape, beating, confinement, threats of violence toward the victim's family, forced drug use and the shame from these acts.[6][7]
Recent empirical research of madams/pimps, however, suggest that these assumptions about abusive relationships represent stereotyped oppression narratives that may only represent a small percentage of the relationships between madams/pimps and sex workers. [8][9]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procuring_(prostitution)

The Wikipedia article further down makes a connection between pimping and gang financing in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procuring_(prostitution)#Business_of_procuring

So maybe depending on country and legal framework women are more or less victims.
"Gorilla pimp" and "finesse pimp" does sound like abuse. Prohibiting prostitution is a sure way to help those type of pimps.
I suppose by government run houses abuse could be minimized.
What about pimps that satisfy emotional needs of prostitutes?


I believe there are two conditions of mankind. The first is a coping mechanism, the second a way to happiness. But that's of course as ethnocentric as it gets.
a) dominance and submission
b) liberal

In many parts of India during a village meeting some men like to sit themselves on the feet of the village head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx6GX7wOPQ8
In 1886 the German Krafft-Ebing wrote "Psychopathia Sexualis". Ebing specialized in psychiatry and forensic. He wrote that masochism in women is so widespread, that it has to be assumed part of nature. Is this so? Well, not in a liberal society.

Slavery is a common economic system. That's terrible for a liberal. But it fits the "dominance and submission" mentality. These two mentalities are only I guess 70% - 80% explained by environment. One can find liberal minds in "dominance and submission" societies. And one can find people in Western societies who do not desire what we call a healthy relationship.
"Women Who Love Too Much" is a book by Robin Norwood. It shows that women are not always the victims.

Also useful to know in our discussion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defe ... y_disorder
I believe it's far more prevalent in India/ dominance and submission societies than in in liberal societies.
Watch Hindi serials. It's enough to watch the faces. These are ridiculous dramas for a liberal mind.

I believe what form prostitution takes does not only depend on law, but also on the mentality of the women concerned/ culture.

Does a woman become a prostitute because she has mental problems or does she get mental problems because of prostitution?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 379
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Tue May 26, 2020 5:37 am

AA747123 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?


Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living.

But there are also many (especially foreign) women who are brought into prostitution by a combination of threats, intimidation, shady debts incurred in irregular circumstances, etc.

It's extremely hard to make a one size fits all for these two very different groups.


With all due respect, no woman really "chooses" to go into prostitution and sell their bodies. For one reason or another they are more or less forced into it because it may be the lesser of two evils. I actually became friends with a woman that was "formally" in the sex business and it was the worst two years of her life. I do think that is cases of prostitution it is fair to only prosecute the man, as the woman is considered a victim. She is being taken advantage of in a position of weakness, which is human trafficking.


Men are abused sometimes too. Men sometimes do jobs they would rather not do. It's common...

The trouble with outlawing this is (hilariously) the government is telling adults (including women) they don't have the right to consent to sex. That is paternalistic and silly. This is also an issue with MeToo. It starts to label certain relationships as "inappropriate," as if we are in the 1750s or something.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12747
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Tue May 26, 2020 6:25 am

LCDFlight wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living.

But there are also many (especially foreign) women who are brought into prostitution by a combination of threats, intimidation, shady debts incurred in irregular circumstances, etc.

It's extremely hard to make a one size fits all for these two very different groups.


With all due respect, no woman really "chooses" to go into prostitution and sell their bodies. For one reason or another they are more or less forced into it because it may be the lesser of two evils. I actually became friends with a woman that was "formally" in the sex business and it was the worst two years of her life. I do think that is cases of prostitution it is fair to only prosecute the man, as the woman is considered a victim. She is being taken advantage of in a position of weakness, which is human trafficking.


Men are abused sometimes too. Men sometimes do jobs they would rather not do. It's common...

The trouble with outlawing this is (hilariously) the government is telling adults (including women) they don't have the right to consent to sex. That is paternalistic and silly. This is also an issue with MeToo. It starts to label certain relationships as "inappropriate," as if we are in the 1750s or something.


Well, we all know that the ultimate goal is to outlaw or penalize all sex outside of marriage, or at least outside a founding a family style relationship.Contraception should also be banned in the mind of those same people. I would also bet money if banned, this would be used in divorces cases in the long run..... "She never loved me, she just pretended, she just wanted my money, hence she is not just a fraud, but a prostitute and needs to be prosecuted!"

We know for a fact that making prostitution illegal has pretty much no effect on its existence, but a dramatic effect on reporting abuse, trafficking, working conditions, pay for sex workers....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal

Tue May 26, 2020 10:53 am

I was wondering if this video fits the topic and what supporters of prohibition think about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkuu0Lwb5EM
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22170
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Germany to permanently ban brothels

Tue May 26, 2020 5:24 pm

AA747123 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Sokes wrote:
.
I have my doubts that prostitutes are victims kept against their will. One can discuss if the legal limit for prostitution should be 21 years. Should same be true for soldiers then?


Prostitution is a very complicated phenomenon. There are definitely many women for which prostitution is a choice and a way to make a living.

But there are also many (especially foreign) women who are brought into prostitution by a combination of threats, intimidation, shady debts incurred in irregular circumstances, etc.

It's extremely hard to make a one size fits all for these two very different groups.


With all due respect, no woman really "chooses" to go into prostitution and sell their bodies. For one reason or another they are more or less forced into it because it may be the lesser of two evils. I actually became friends with a woman that was "formally" in the sex business and it was the worst two years of her life. I do think that is cases of prostitution it is fair to only prosecute the man, as the woman is considered a victim. She is being taken advantage of in a position of weakness, which is human trafficking.


This brings up a whole other issue of "sugar daddies/sugar mammas". Younger people who form relationships with older people just to get stuff and money. Prostitution. No pimps/madams involved. The older person likes the attention from the younger person and the younger person likes getting things. I think this is more of a self-esteem issue, rather than "lesser of two evils" issue.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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