Kiwirob wrote:

Aesma wrote:

If I take my country, France, there are no doubt plenty of forced prostitutes (foreigners in particular), but for others it's clearly a choice. You can talk to them on forums and they will tell you the reasons.

For money, if you're healthy enough to be a prostitute, you're healthy enough to work at McDonald's. There are McDonald's everywhere, always looking for staff... And enough government money to actually live on minimum wage, here (subsidised housing, subsidised utilities, subsidized transportation, subsidized children, free healthcare, etc.).

If you're pretty enough why would you work at McD's for minimum wage when you can make a lot more as a hooker?

That's a moral argument, I was just making the social one : in my country you do it for greed basically, not need.

So if all these part time sex workers have other jobs then why are they doing two jobs.

If it is because they need the money, how are they going to make up that drop in income. Furthermore, earnings attract tax, I wonder how many of these part time sex workers are paying tax on this second income.

bennett123 wrote:

So if all these part time sex workers have other jobs then why are they doing two jobs..

"I want to buy an apartment, but my day job doesn´t make enough money"
"I want to have a head start when i am done with university"*

If it is because they need the money, how are they going to make up that drop in income.

Income is enough once rent falls away

Furthermore, earnings attract tax, I wonder how many of these part time sex workers are paying tax on this second income.

no one is going to pay taxes on their illegal business

Here, if you work as a prostitute, you better have a plausible record of your deals or the tax authorities will just guess, and charge income tax because of that estimate.

best regards
Thomas

*a long time ago i spend a very interesting day in a brothel, and it was either one of those for everyone working there.

What is going to make rent 'fall away'?.

Did you spend the WHOLE day there

Also, if they are going from the Black economy into the regular economy that will increase the income drop.

bennett123 wrote:

What is going to make rent 'fall away'?.

Save money, buy property, stop paying rent. They know how to have a savings account .....

Did you spend the WHOLE day there

From when they opened up sometime before noon to closing at some 3 am. I was there to fix problems with their website, and the computer they ran the cursed AOL Website designer (Aolpress?) on was in their...mmm.... green room (?), and after that was done i stayed for the interesting conversation. My friend working there was also my ride home.

Also, if they are going from the Black economy into the regular economy that will increase the income drop.

At least here a prostitutes income was taxable even before it was a fully legal business.

best regards
Thomas

Virtual737 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

If you're pretty enough why would you work at McD's for minimum wage when you can make a lot more as a hooker?

Because it offends someone else's moral code even when it has no effect on their life in any way at all.

There is a lot of energy in perceived slights.
Hysterics abound.

Virtual737 wrote:

DL757NYC wrote:

I find it disgusting how men from all countries not just Germany get a kick of how cheap they can buy sex. These women are forced to do that to survive.

Apart from your disgust, what have you done that is meaningful to these individuals in any way to make any kind of difference?

Is "Screw them! " an appropriate answer?

Sokes wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

DL757NYC wrote:

I find it disgusting how men from all countries not just Germany get a kick of how cheap they can buy sex. These women are forced to do that to survive.

Apart from your disgust, what have you done that is meaningful to these individuals in any way to make any kind of difference?

Is "Screw them! " an appropriate answer?

You might not believe this but I almost wrote a very similar comment.. although my word began with F wheras yours began with S

Virtual737 wrote:

Sokes wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

Apart from your disgust, what have you done that is meaningful to these individuals in any way to make any kind of difference?

Is "Screw them! " an appropriate answer?

You might not believe this but I almost wrote a very similar comment.. although my word began with F wheras yours began with S

Have you seen "Sleepers" and understood the social mechanics therein?

Give a person power over another and a large percentage will misuse it with glee.
For those nothing seems to feel nicer than causing misery to some one else based on a superficial "good cause".

WIederling wrote:

...
For those nothing seems to feel nicer than causing misery to some one else based on a superficial "good cause".

The question is whom to pitty, the one who experience misery or the aggressor?

My wife thinks the world is bad. My son also already made lots of bad experiences. I always tell them that humans want to be good, unless life makes them bitter. I made good experiences with humans growing up.

There is a book which describes perfectly what you address:
Arundhati Roy, "The God of small things"
The first half is a bit lengthy, as all characters are introduced. The second half is incredible sad. So much suffering without reason.

I say most Indians can't see each other's happiness. Which is basically also what the book says.

The humans I grew up with were the children of the aggressors of WW2. 30 years of good economy made them nice people.

There are reasons why people today are so much more tolerant.

Does this apply to our discussion? I believe many of those who oppose legalization of prostitution may simply have a collective mind. I don't think they are bitter, at least not the majority.

Sokes wrote:

Does this apply to our discussion? I believe many of those who oppose legalization of prostitution may simply have a collective mind. I don't think they are bitter, at least not the majority.

Difficult.

The processes after WWII kept a lot of people busy "with their own stuff".
( IMU that is one reason why the German Grundgesetz turned out to be brilliant work.
Only people involved that really saw this as "wichtig" the disturbants of today at the time were busy with scooping bargains from the black markets )

Later with some general level of well being achieved ( reconstruction, growth )

Overbearing postures and the uncompromising drives from people that perceive themselves as the moral majority
coming up in recent decades seem to be born from overflow and having nothing worthwhile to do.

Add in that the greedy now have something to take from their neighbors.

Rising religious fundamentalism is just one facet here. Amassing value without reason another one.
The combination visible now is an abomination.

WIederling wrote:

Amassing value without reason another one.

Do you mean amassing wealth?

The consideration of making sexual prostitution illegal in Germany and elsewhere is due to a range of factors, political, economics, property values, quality of life, social changes, technology and changing demographics.
Political - the spectrum of politics is shifting to the 'right' or more conservative and politicians are responding to the demands of a noisy minority. That means discouraging prostitution.
Economic - For more women, they have economic and employment opportunities and government welfare not available to them generations ago. Sadly the gap is filled by those from the poorer EC countries, former colonies and illegally in the EC for economic reasons.
Property values - The sites of legal prostitution near major train stations or in central cities like in Amsterdam have become more valuable for offices and high end housing apartments. That means less centralized placement of legal forms, sometimes shifted to industrial areas. Then there is the NIMBY (not in my back yard), where many to keep up the values of their properties don't want to be near a brothel or sex district that may hurt their property's value.
Quality of life - many see prostitution as bad for the (usually) women involved, some see such districts as ones with higher crime rates. In some cities like Amsterdam they dislike the idea of visitors only coming for sex and along the way drinking too much, and other bad behaviors.
Social changes - Many don't want to see women have to turn to prostitution to survive, many see prostitution as immoral and as others have brought up just want it to go away and unnecessary. The 'me too' movement as to sexual assault in the entertainment industries is causing a lower tolerance for prostitution.Over the last decade ads with nudity have sharply declined due to social pressures, fears of offending someone, so similar shifts on open prostitution.
Technology - the shift to the internet over the last 20 years means you don't have to go to a 'house' or red light district any more.
Changing demographics. - In the EC, there are a lot more immigrants from the Islamic and other conservative faiths for whom don't accept legal prostitution. More of the small number of religious are being more open against prostituion and putting pressure on politicans for change.

ltbewr wrote:

The consideration of making sexual prostitution illegal in Germany and elsewhere is due to a range of factors, political, economics, property values, quality of life, social changes, technology and changing demographics.
Political - the spectrum of politics is shifting to the 'right' or more conservative and politicians are responding to the demands of a noisy minority. That means discouraging prostitution.
Economic - For more women, they have economic and employment opportunities and government welfare not available to them generations ago. Sadly the gap is filled by those from the poorer EC countries, former colonies and illegally in the EC for economic reasons.
Property values - The sites of legal prostitution near major train stations or in central cities like in Amsterdam have become more valuable for offices and high end housing apartments. That means less centralized placement of legal forms, sometimes shifted to industrial areas. Then there is the NIMBY (not in my back yard), where many to keep up the values of their properties don't want to be near a brothel or sex district that may hurt their property's value.
Quality of life - many see prostitution as bad for the (usually) women involved, some see such districts as ones with higher crime rates. In some cities like Amsterdam they dislike the idea of visitors only coming for sex and along the way drinking too much, and other bad behaviors.
Social changes - Many don't want to see women have to turn to prostitution to survive, many see prostitution as immoral and as others have brought up just want it to go away and unnecessary. The 'me too' movement as to sexual assault in the entertainment industries is causing a lower tolerance for prostitution.Over the last decade ads with nudity have sharply declined due to social pressures, fears of offending someone, so similar shifts on open prostitution.
Technology - the shift to the internet over the last 20 years means you don't have to go to a 'house' or red light district any more.
Changing demographics. - In the EC, there are a lot more immigrants from the Islamic and other conservative faiths for whom don't accept legal prostitution. More of the small number of religious are being more open against prostituion and putting pressure on politicans for change.

luckily our constitutional court has ruled a long time ago that the guaranteed right to chose your own profession includes prostitution, so they can all go and pound sand ....

best regards
Thomas

Prostitution is a temptation. Those who find it morally wrong, but find themselves weak, have good reason to demand prohibition.

Well, as St. Paul says:
"Therefore I only want to boast of my weaknesses. "

Sokes wrote:

Prostitution is a temptation. Those who find it morally wrong, but find themselves weak, have good reason to demand prohibition.

Well, as St. Paul says:
"Therefore I only want to boast of my weaknesses. "

"For all my failings others are responsible."

How faint. but a strong trait in American and some others societies.

http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible ... OR+12.html

I don't think that he was speaking about prostitution.

Perhaps people need to read some more.

WIederling wrote:

Sokes wrote:

Well, as St. Paul says:
"Therefore I only want to boast of my weaknesses. "

"For all my failings others are responsible."

That's exactly not what St. Paul said and why he said it.
You need to read acts and Paul's letters to understand what beautiful humble attitude Christianity is supposed to have.

bennett123 wrote:

http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/2COR+12.html

I don't think that he was speaking about prostitution.

Perhaps people need to read some more.

Of course not.

Sokes wrote:

Paul's letters.

the real ones or the fake ones?

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

Sokes wrote:

Paul's letters.

the real ones or the fake ones?

best regards
Thomas

We speak of faith, not science.

Virtual737 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

If you're pretty enough why would you work at McD's for minimum wage when you can make a lot more as a hooker?

Because it offends someone else's moral code even when it has no effect on their life in any way at all.

Free will, if someone what’s to be a hooker who are you or I to say no. I doesn’t offend my life at all.

Sokes wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

Sokes wrote:

Paul's letters.

the real ones or the fake ones?

best regards
Thomas

We speak of faith, not science.

In this case that is the same thing, since he writes to be aware of fakes.
If course he was a delusional crazy person or used a lot of drugs, so that could be made up as well and he just suffered from paranoia on top.

Best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

In this case that is the same thing, since he writes to be aware of fakes.
If course he was a delusional crazy person or used a lot of drugs, so that could be made up as well and he just suffered from paranoia on top.

Best regards
Thomas

The only mental problem I can see with Paul is conversion disorder on the way to Damascus. It's part of dissociative disorders.
I assume, but may be wrong, that his hostile attitude to women may be explained by a hysterical mother.
(I believe hysteria is the agricultural version of borderline personality. Borderline and dissociative symptoms cluster. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17107251/ )
That may explain why he said "It's good for a man not to get married...

Where do you get delusional, paranoia and drugs from?

Kiwirob wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

If you're pretty enough why would you work at McD's for minimum wage when you can make a lot more as a hooker?

Because it offends someone else's moral code even when it has no effect on their life in any way at all.

Free will, if someone what’s to be a hooker who are you or I to say no. I doesn’t offend my life at all.

That's the basic libertarian view on this. Stop trying and vying to regulate things that don't actually affect you. Whether it's right or wrong - if women want to sell themselves to feed a shopping habit or real estate investment interest (or avoid having to work for a pimp - an even better reason), why do you actually care? If gay couples want to marry - why do you actually care? If people want to use drugs in the privacy of their homes - why do you actually care? All important questions for those desperate to regulate all of these things.

Sokes wrote:

Where do you get delusional, paranoia and drugs from?

nothing he describes about God, Jesus and whatnot happens on earth, he pretty much didn´t witness anything that happened elsewhere in the Bible even according to the Bible. Its literally all just in his head. He doesn´t know anything of the gospel Jesus, all his theological arguments are constructed without any reference to anything Jesus supposedly said and did.
Either there are fake letter (and we know there are) or he was paranoid warning about those ... and hallucinogens are just as good as explanation as mental illness. They loved their drugs http://www.asor.org/anetoday/2014/07/ps ... near-east/

best regards
Thomas

Aaron747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

Because it offends someone else's moral code even when it has no effect on their life in any way at all.

Free will, if someone what’s to be a hooker who are you or I to say no. I doesn’t offend my life at all.

That's the basic libertarian view on this. Stop trying and vying to regulate things that don't actually affect you. Whether it's right or wrong - if women want to sell themselves to feed a shopping habit or real estate investment interest

sometimes i wonder how much jealousy is involved in that....why can they charge for sex and i have to pay?!? Why should it be so easy for a woman to make cash on the side?

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Free will, if someone what’s to be a hooker who are you or I to say no. I doesn’t offend my life at all.

That's the basic libertarian view on this. Stop trying and vying to regulate things that don't actually affect you. Whether it's right or wrong - if women want to sell themselves to feed a shopping habit or real estate investment interest

sometimes i wonder how much jealousy is involved in that....why can they charge for sex and i have to pay?!? Why should it be so easy for a woman to make cash on the side?

best regards
Thomas

I would just say to them - not all women who want to charge can get reliable business. Others can. Men can sell themselves too but you have to be able to perform...especially for other men. Life isn’t fair.

Kiwirob wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

If you're pretty enough why would you work at McD's for minimum wage when you can make a lot more as a hooker?

Because it offends someone else's moral code even when it has no effect on their life in any way at all.

Free will, if someone what’s to be a hooker who are you or I to say no. I doesn’t offend my life at all.

1) Why Mc Donalds:
Because most people capable of attachment can't work as prostitutes.

2) Free will:
You speak as if mankind consists only of individualists. New topic:
viewtopic.php?t=1454541

Sokes wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Virtual737 wrote:

Because it offends someone else's moral code even when it has no effect on their life in any way at all.

Free will, if someone what’s to be a hooker who are you or I to say no. I doesn’t offend my life at all.

1) Why Mc Donalds:
Because most people capable of attachment can't work as prostitutes.

Both my prostitute friends had and have stable, long term relationships, and i have never seen empirical data to support that claim. And why would there be a connection, if there is anything humans excel at, its compartmentalizing stuff.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

Sokes wrote:

1) Why Mc Donalds:
Because most people capable of attachment can't work as prostitutes.

Both my prostitute friends had and have stable, long term relationships, and i have never seen empirical data to support that claim. And why would there be a connection, if there is anything humans excel at, its compartmentalizing stuff.

best regards
Thomas

I had sex with a woman I soon found boring to talk to. I also lost interest in sex.
If I like a woman I will attach.

So if your prostitute friend gets a regular customer who is charming, good looking and humorous she won't get emotionally involved?

Sokes wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

Sokes wrote:

1) Why Mc Donalds:
Because most people capable of attachment can't work as prostitutes.

Both my prostitute friends had and have stable, long term relationships, and i have never seen empirical data to support that claim. And why would there be a connection, if there is anything humans excel at, its compartmentalizing stuff.

best regards
Thomas

I had sex with a woman I soon found boring to talk to. I also lost interest in sex.
If I like a woman I will attach.

So if your prostitute friend gets a regular customer who is charming, good looking and humorous she won't get emotionally involved?

Why would they? People with a talent for compartmentalization can simply decide to/not to attach.

Aaron747 wrote:

Sokes wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

Both my prostitute friends had and have stable, long term relationships, and i have never seen empirical data to support that claim. And why would there be a connection, if there is anything humans excel at, its compartmentalizing stuff.

best regards
Thomas

I had sex with a woman I soon found boring to talk to. I also lost interest in sex.
If I like a woman I will attach.

So if your prostitute friend gets a regular customer who is charming, good looking and humorous she won't get emotionally involved?

Why would they? People with a talent for compartmentalization can simply decide to/not to attach.

Its also not like she had only one regular customer..... attachment as in care/wanting them to be fine, sure, but beyond that? Why? There are also plenty of people that have friends with benefits and it never evolves beyond friendship plus .....
And from an evolutionary point of view it is probably useful for men to get attached quickly, and for women to be more flexible about it.

best regards
Thomas

@Tommy and Aaron:
Point taken. You are right.
I didn't knew that concept of compartmentalization.
https://richardnicastro.com/2019/03/05/ ... alization/

It explains a lot. Narcissistic people who can cheat on their partner without guilt.
I also thought of one guy from the neighborhood who likes to beat or threaten my mentally disabled brother in law. He always hangs around in church and is a leading figure with rosaries in our road. I so far thought he is aware of the hypocrisy and simply tries to manipulate public view of his goodness. But reading above link makes me think he really is religious.

Since I'm not good in reading social clues, can somebody explain that music video?
https://youtu.be/NSkboTTTmpg

@ tommy:
Can you ask your friends what they think of that video, please?

tommy1808 wrote:

sometimes i wonder how much jealousy is involved in that....why can they charge for sex and i have to pay?!? Why should it be so easy for a woman to make cash on the side?

<snicker>
Students in Berlin with a side line of income from some form of prostitution or other (3.5% of 180k ) are ~50% male
<more snicker>

bennett123 wrote:

Sixfootscream

Surely as a Libertarian it is for the prostitute to decide for themselves.

As I said. Difficult one.