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lugie
Posts: 860
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:11 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 9:42 pm

ltbewr wrote:
This is probably the best commentary on the George Floyd protests. It is by former NBA star and respected author Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... id=U507DHP


Agreed, probably the most eloquent and on-point statement I've seen about all this. Thank you for sharing.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cops with violence issues are in every city in the country. This MSP cop has 18 write-ups in his discipline file. Why was still on the job? Most every one of these police murders, the officer has a record of excessive violence, domestic violence or poor discipline. Why? Because civil service unions will protect without conscience. A city near me has to reinstate a terminated officer several times over excessive force complaints. Then, mayors, beholden to the unions, afraid of being “soft” on crime indulge the unions and the members.

This cop should have been gone from the years ago.


There seems to be a widespread cultural problem in the police force that leads them to think they need to protect even the worst amongst them at any cost. This tweet sums it up nicely I think:

Image

For some reason a lot of police offers seem to have a major issue with just saying "yeah, he was a piece of shit and as an honorable representative of our profession I will join you in your outrage". Instead, they seem to be unwilling to tolerate any sort of dissent whatsoever against "the blue" and would rather further brutalize protestors taking to the streets.

Now this doesn't apply to all of them obviously. Even in this extremely dire situation there have been moments of positivity. The Sheriff of Flint, MI for example took off his helmet, laid down his baton and joined the marchers in a parade, because he realizes that every single person out there on these streets, including him, has a legitimate reason to be outraged.
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seb146
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 9:42 pm

And now dear leader wants to deploy the military to quash protests

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white- ... d-n1219656
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 40316.html

He and his MAGA crew are getting what they want: a military state. A dictatorship. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N583JB
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:00 pm

seb146 wrote:
And now dear leader wants to deploy the military to quash protests

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white- ... d-n1219656
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 40316.html

He and his MAGA crew are getting what they want: a military state. A dictatorship. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.


Good. The military is absolutely needed right now. Stop these criminals from destroying any more cities.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3508
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:06 pm

seb146 wrote:
And now dear leader wants to deploy the military to quash protests

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white- ... d-n1219656
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 40316.html

He and his MAGA crew are getting what they want: a military state. A dictatorship. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.


Send in the tank, Tiananman Square style...

Seriously, as if the paramilitary police and NG are not enough of a lethal force. They had not been using actual bullets for a reason.

Newark727 wrote:
Hey man, have you seen how expensive Lego sets are these days?


:rotfl:

(On a side note, you actually won't find those uber expensive lego set in a Target store...)
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19044
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:12 pm

N583JB wrote:
I was in the middle of riots this week. I saw zero, zero white people rioting.


You must have been "off the grid" if you didn't see the white (alleged) cop smashing store windows or the two white women spraying BLM graffiti on stores.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Jalap
Posts: 638
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:16 pm

N583JB wrote:
Good. The military is absolutely needed right now. Stop these criminals from destroying any more cities.

Force can fight the symptoms, but will make the disease worse.
 
N583JB
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
N583JB wrote:
I was in the middle of riots this week. I saw zero, zero white people rioting.


You must have been "off the grid" if you didn't see the white (alleged) cop smashing store windows or the two white women spraying BLM graffiti on stores.


I may have missed the three white people mixed amongst thousands of nonwhite people committing violent acts. That is certainly possible.
 
N583JB
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Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:20 pm

Jalap wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Good. The military is absolutely needed right now. Stop these criminals from destroying any more cities.

Force can fight the symptoms, but will make the disease worse.


Sometimes the symptoms can be just as dangerous, if not more, than the disease.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3508
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:24 pm

scbriml wrote:
N583JB wrote:
I was in the middle of riots this week. I saw zero, zero white people rioting.


You must have been "off the grid" if you didn't see the white (alleged) cop smashing store windows or the two white women spraying BLM graffiti on stores.


Dude sounds like a white supremacy apologist or well, just a racist.

Seriously, the OP need to follow the cue of the dear leader and blame everything on Antifa, an "organization" that is majority white...
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:28 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
scbriml wrote:
N583JB wrote:
I was in the middle of riots this week. I saw zero, zero white people rioting.


You must have been "off the grid" if you didn't see the white (alleged) cop smashing store windows or the two white women spraying BLM graffiti on stores.


Dude sounds like a white supremacy apologist or well, just a racist.

Seriously, the OP need to follow the cue of the dear leader and blame everything on Antifa, an "organization" that is majority white...


Stating that the vast majority of people rioting are not white is racist now? I think assuming that white people are responsible for every single action a nonwhite person takes is a bit racist, to be honest. It is like you think that people who are nonwhite are completely unable to think for themselves. How horrible.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3464
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
There are bad people in every group. In a group of 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers, there are going to be people who have no business being cops. It always has been that way and unfortunately it always will be that way.


So just let cops kill whoever they want then become outraged over people protesting and rioting. That is the solution? How about we make it easier to call out those officers who have no business being officers? It seems like that would lower the chances of protests and riots and killing of unarmed or innocent people.

Airlines do a decent job of screening pilots there is no reason PDs can't do the same. Could you imagine an airline saying with X pilots and hundreds of thousands of flights per year, there's always going to be a daredevil or manic pilot whose going to crash his plane when he's having a bad day and there's nothing we can do about it?
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3508
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:42 pm

N583JB wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
scbriml wrote:

You must have been "off the grid" if you didn't see the white (alleged) cop smashing store windows or the two white women spraying BLM graffiti on stores.


Dude sounds like a white supremacy apologist or well, just a racist.

Seriously, the OP need to follow the cue of the dear leader and blame everything on Antifa, an "organization" that is majority white...


Stating that the vast majority of people rioting are not white is racist now? I think assuming that white people are responsible for every single action a nonwhite person takes is a bit racist, to be honest. It is like you think that people who are nonwhite are completely unable to think for themselves. How horrible.


So there is now a "minority", not "zero" white people rioting?

Look, nowhere do I say "it is all the white people's fault", and certainly know that there are black youths that are doing quite a bit of damages.

The bottom line is, anarchism certainly exist across the spectrum of US demographics, and there are certainly systematic problems (i.e. inequality) that US politicians just don't want to address.
 
Jalap
Posts: 638
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:42 pm

N583JB wrote:
Jalap wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Good. The military is absolutely needed right now. Stop these criminals from destroying any more cities.

Force can fight the symptoms, but will make the disease worse.


Sometimes the symptoms can be just as dangerous, if not more, than the disease.

If the disease is that disproportional force is being used and justified and you suppress the symptoms by using more force, then this extra force can never be released. Will most likely even need to be increased when the next wave happens.

If, however, you could find a way that there's broader support for police actions, then you'll actually need less force to achieve the same.
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:45 pm

afcjets wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
There are bad people in every group. In a group of 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers, there are going to be people who have no business being cops. It always has been that way and unfortunately it always will be that way.


So just let cops kill whoever they want then become outraged over people protesting and rioting. That is the solution? How about we make it easier to call out those officers who have no business being officers? It seems like that would lower the chances of protests and riots and killing of unarmed or innocent people.

Airlines do a decent job of screening pilots there is no reason PDs can't do the same. Could you imagine an airline saying with X pilots and hundreds of thousands of flights per year, there's always going to be a daredevil or manic pilot whose going to crash his plane when he's having a bad day and there's nothing we can do about it?


Flying is largely controlled. Subject to laws of physics and nature that can easily be understood. It is also planned in advance with few unknown variables and efforts made to follow written checklists whenever possible. Policing is completely different. Every single encounter with a citizen, criminal, victim, or suspect is different. Everything is unknown. You are often by yourself. You don't know if the person you pulled over is going to politely hand over their license and registration or if they are going to shoot you in the face. You can't plan much in advance. Too many variables.
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:46 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
N583JB wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

Dude sounds like a white supremacy apologist or well, just a racist.

Seriously, the OP need to follow the cue of the dear leader and blame everything on Antifa, an "organization" that is majority white...


Stating that the vast majority of people rioting are not white is racist now? I think assuming that white people are responsible for every single action a nonwhite person takes is a bit racist, to be honest. It is like you think that people who are nonwhite are completely unable to think for themselves. How horrible.


So there is now a "minority", not "zero" white people rioting?

Look, nowhere do I say "it is all the white people's fault", and certainly know that there are black youths that are doing quite a bit of damages.

The bottom line is, anarchism certainly exist across the spectrum of US demographics, and there are certainly systematic problems (i.e. inequality) that US politicians just don't want to address.


You are correct, you never said that. Seb has, though. So I apologize if I misattributed his/her words to you.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:47 pm

N583JB wrote:
I may have missed the three white people mixed amongst thousands of nonwhite people committing violent acts.


It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you "missed" all the white people involved (not just the three I highlighted) as well as white looters.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:49 pm

Jalap wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Force can fight the symptoms, but will make the disease worse.


Sometimes the symptoms can be just as dangerous, if not more, than the disease.

If the disease is that disproportional force is being used and justified and you suppress the symptoms by using more force, then this extra force can never be released. Will most likely even need to be increased when the next wave happens.

If, however, you could find a way that there's broader support for police actions, then you'll actually need less force to achieve the same.


You have to separate the protesters from the rioters/looters. There is some overlap but they are largely separate groups. Finding a way to get broader support for police actions may win over the protesters, but it will do nothing to stop the rioters. They are not motivated by a desire for change.....they are motivated either by personal interest (i.e., looting), boredom, or a desire to commit criminal acts and get away with it. For this group, you need to respond with force. If they are in jail, they aren't able to riot anymore. If they keep going to jail, they are going to decide that rioting really isn't worth it.
 
N583JB
Posts: 581
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 10:50 pm

scbriml wrote:
N583JB wrote:
I may have missed the three white people mixed amongst thousands of nonwhite people committing violent acts.


It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you "missed" all the white people involved (not just the three I highlighted) as well as white looters.


Once again, I freely admit that the 1% may have been overshadowed by the 99%. Thankfully, you and seb have been busy ignoring the 99% and looking for white specs in every picture. I suppose that would be a fun exercise in futility.
 
FTMCPIUS
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:10 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 11:01 pm

lugie wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
This is probably the best commentary on the George Floyd protests. It is by former NBA star and respected author Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... id=U507DHP


Agreed, probably the most eloquent and on-point statement I've seen about all this. Thank you for sharing.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cops with violence issues are in every city in the country. This MSP cop has 18 write-ups in his discipline file. Why was still on the job? Most every one of these police murders, the officer has a record of excessive violence, domestic violence or poor discipline. Why? Because civil service unions will protect without conscience. A city near me has to reinstate a terminated officer several times over excessive force complaints. Then, mayors, beholden to the unions, afraid of being “soft” on crime indulge the unions and the members.

This cop should have been gone from the years ago.


There seems to be a widespread cultural problem in the police force that leads them to think they need to protect even the worst amongst them at any cost. This tweet sums it up nicely I think:

Image

For some reason a lot of police offers seem to have a major issue with just saying "yeah, he was a piece of shit and as an honorable representative of our profession I will join you in your outrage". Instead, they seem to be unwilling to tolerate any sort of dissent whatsoever against "the blue" and would rather further brutalize protestors taking to the streets.

Now this doesn't apply to all of them obviously. Even in this extremely dire situation there have been moments of positivity. The Sheriff of Flint, MI for example took off his helmet, laid down his baton and joined the marchers in a parade, because he realizes that every single person out there on these streets, including him, has a legitimate reason to be outraged.

Most cops are good, but they risk their careers or, at least, promotional opportunities due to peer-level or higher level pressure, or even threats. Relying on promises of confidentiality can result in recrimination, especially when the bad cop may be the one you would need to 'have your back' at some point. It's a systemic problem with no easy solution, especially in large cities where there are strong police unions. A teacher can usually transfer to another school. Not so easy for cops.

Derek Chauvin, however, was not just a bad cop, he was an evil, ‘dirty’ cop. He should have been ratted out. I hope he goes for 20-30 years in a prison full of black inmates.
 
Jalap
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 pm

N583JB wrote:
You have to separate the protesters from the rioters/looters. There is some overlap but they are largely separate groups. Finding a way to get broader support for police actions may win over the protesters, but it will do nothing to stop the rioters.

You are partly right and partly wrong.
Right: rioters don't care about the cause.
Wrong: There is a clear link between the protests and the riots. Large scale protests give rioters a reason to go out and cause havoc. They don't care about the cause, but they get some sick sense of justification from large scale protests. This happens very often in large scale protests. Hence, if you defuse the large scale protests, the rioters lose their justification and riots will end too.
Of course, riots can happen for other reasons as well. But how I see the events in the USA now, I think it's clear that listening to the protesters is the best way to stop the riots. That would be a win-win situation.
 
afcjets
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sun May 31, 2020 11:55 pm

N583JB wrote:
afcjets wrote:
seb146 wrote:

So just let cops kill whoever they want then become outraged over people protesting and rioting. That is the solution? How about we make it easier to call out those officers who have no business being officers? It seems like that would lower the chances of protests and riots and killing of unarmed or innocent people.

Airlines do a decent job of screening pilots there is no reason PDs can't do the same. Could you imagine an airline saying with X pilots and hundreds of thousands of flights per year, there's always going to be a daredevil or manic pilot whose going to crash his plane when he's having a bad day and there's nothing we can do about it?


Flying is largely controlled. Subject to laws of physics and nature that can easily be understood. It is also planned in advance with few unknown variables and efforts made to follow written checklists whenever possible. Policing is completely different. Every single encounter with a citizen, criminal, victim, or suspect is different. Everything is unknown. You are often by yourself. You don't know if the person you pulled over is going to politely hand over their license and registration or if they are going to shoot you in the face. You can't plan much in advance. Too many variables.


Not in this case. That killer cop was at zero risk after he had been handcuffed. And this killer cop had a history of bad behavior and it was clear he was a ticking time bomb. I hope his girlfriend and family get an eight figure settlement in addition to a first degree murder conviction, but none of that will bring him back.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:19 am

Jalap wrote:
N583JB wrote:
You have to separate the protesters from the rioters/looters. There is some overlap but they are largely separate groups. Finding a way to get broader support for police actions may win over the protesters, but it will do nothing to stop the rioters.

You are partly right and partly wrong.
Right: rioters don't care about the cause.
Wrong: There is a clear link between the protests and the riots. Large scale protests give rioters a reason to go out and cause havoc. They don't care about the cause, but they get some sick sense of justification from large scale protests. This happens very often in large scale protests. Hence, if you defuse the large scale protests, the rioters lose their justification and riots will end too.
Of course, riots can happen for other reasons as well. But how I see the events in the USA now, I think it's clear that listening to the protesters is the best way to stop the riots. That would be a win-win situation.


That’s the whole point - people who just want crackdown and no actual resolution either see only clouds from FL330 or have no real interest in future stability for the country. They are indulging in ‘us vs them’, which keeps the stove running hot. It’s immature and illogical.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:49 am

afcjets wrote:
N583JB wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Airlines do a decent job of screening pilots there is no reason PDs can't do the same. Could you imagine an airline saying with X pilots and hundreds of thousands of flights per year, there's always going to be a daredevil or manic pilot whose going to crash his plane when he's having a bad day and there's nothing we can do about it?


Flying is largely controlled. Subject to laws of physics and nature that can easily be understood. It is also planned in advance with few unknown variables and efforts made to follow written checklists whenever possible. Policing is completely different. Every single encounter with a citizen, criminal, victim, or suspect is different. Everything is unknown. You are often by yourself. You don't know if the person you pulled over is going to politely hand over their license and registration or if they are going to shoot you in the face. You can't plan much in advance. Too many variables.


Not in this case. That killer cop was at zero risk after he had been handcuffed. And this killer cop had a history of bad behavior and it was clear he was a ticking time bomb. I hope his girlfriend and family get an eight figure settlement in addition to a first degree murder conviction, but none of that will bring him back.


Sure, but this is one specific case. It is unfair to generalize all police officers by his behavior, just as it would be unfair to judge all airline pilots by the behavior of one of the pilots who went rogue in recent history (Malaysia, Egyptair, Germanwings, etc).
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:27 am

I don't know what this truck driver was thinking driving into a crowd of protestors on a highway bridge, but hopefully we'll know soon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEwsWOpZShw

As far as I know there were no fatalities and only minor injuries. The truck driver was taken to the hospital.
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Pellegrine
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:58 am

The problem is the police. And you have seen it again and again, and then you see it even in these protests. The police are being aggressive, the police are being threatening, the police are being criminals, the police have killed. That's what they're doing. That's what the problem is. And if there is no solution, I hope for continued unrest. Keep them at it.

And while we are at it. Why are the police better protected than the nurses of America? They don't even have PPE for the nurses and the techs, but the police have materiel looking like they're going to the Vietnam War or the Cold War. Ridiculous.
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Aaron747
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:10 am

Pellegrine wrote:
The problem is the police. And you have seen it again and again, and then you see it even in these protests. The police are being aggressive, the police are being threatening, the police are being criminals, the police have killed. That's what they're doing. That's what the problem is. And if there is no solution, I hope for continued unrest. Keep them at it.

And while we are at it. Why are the police better protected than the nurses of America? They don't even have PPE for the nurses and the techs, but the police have materiel looking like they're going to the Vietnam War or the Cold War. Ridiculous.


I have seen similar sentiments in recent days - our police departments are outfitted with military grade equipment - clearly we have the money for that. Yet despite all the money flowing through the health system, our hospitals and frontline healthcare providers were underequipped for crisis. So we’re a country where cops are outfitted like soldiers and doctors are not always outfitted as doctors. Truly bizarre.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:29 am

Poignant words here, still unheeded today, from the 1968 Kerner report. Sourced from the Eisenhower foundation:

Image

https://twitter.com/crampell/status/126 ... 35713?s=21
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AeroVega
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Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:07 am

N583JB wrote:
Stating that the vast majority of people rioting are not white is racist now?


The vast majority of the rioters is also not female, not elderly and not rich. So why emphasize skin color?
 
astuteman
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:20 am

ltbewr wrote:
Some of our UK and other non-USA posters try to make comparisons of their countries and the USA as to the almost polar opposite numbers killed by guns inducing by and of police but they forget one critical factor - they have a 180 degree different political structure and culture as to guns.


You think? Er, no we didn't forget it. At all
I'm pretty sure that is a large part of the point that we are making about your societal values …
When the first community response to Covid-19, bar none, is a 75% increase in the sale of guns and ammunition, you know there's an issue at the heart of that community.
What were you going to do? Shoot the virus if it comes near?

ltbewr wrote:
In the USA, due to circumstances, including the ability to enforce enslavement, to have the 'right' to have a gun in the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution.


So to check - the reason that you still have the right to have a gun in the 2nd amendment - TODAY - is to enforce slavery?
Is that what I heard?

Have you ever thought about whether the way that your Constitution is interpreted in US society in the 21st Century is still appropriate to the development and maintenance of a unified society? Or is it anachronistic?

ltbewr wrote:
In the UK and elsewhere the governments made sure the common people didn't have guns so not to overthrow governments or in particular who is the King/Queen.


I wasn't sure if this was a joke or not.
No. That's not the reason that we don't carry guns.
As a point of order, we ARE allowed to own guns and many people do. I live in a rural area and most farmers families will have guns..

The reason that we don't tend to carry guns is that in our society, along with pretty much the rest of the developed world, the value set is such that we don't need to.
In the UK, somewhat topically, the law is the protection that we use.
And it is there to protect ALL of us

As Scrimbl says - we "overthrow" our governments at the ballot box, like all other balanced democratic societies do

ltbewr wrote:
As to issues of ethnic and racial conflicts in the UK vs. the USA, the UK has a long history of that, including the Irish, people from their former colonies, peoples from the Islamic world and from the poorer countries of the EC as a major factor for Brexit


It would have helped if you had actually read my posts - I explicitly pointed this out. We definitely have racial issues in the UK. They are one of the factors behind Brexit, as you say (wrongly in my opinion, but that's a different story)
The context is that we seem to be able to manage our racial conflicts without resorting to killing a disproportionately large amount of black people. Without killing anyone, in fact.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:25 am

astuteman wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
It's always interesting being chided about race relations by completely homogenous countries. Of course they don't have the racial violence we do...because they have no practical racial diversity.

America needs to do better. There's just no excusing the bad policing that has occurred. But it's also good to keep in context that America is the largest most racially and ethnically diverse country in the world, and is still essentially an experiment that we're trying to perfect. .


Its always interesting being chided about being "completely homogenous" by someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.
You think the UK is completely homogenous? :shakehead:
If you do it's a really good way of displaying an ignorance of things outside your own country that borders on the stereotypical.

The UK is considerably ethnically diverse.
Go to any major urban area beginning with "B" - Bradford, Blackburn, Burnley, Birmingham, Brixton, Brent, Bedford, Bristol, Breston (Preston really, but you get the point), and you'll find large swathes of the town where a "white" citizen is unlikely be found.

It is true that the diversity is not as great in the UK as the USA - 80% white overall compared to 65% white in the USA.
But is has grown dramatically in the last decade or so, and continues to do so.
But to label the UK a "homogenous"?
Greater London was about 45% White British back in 2011, and will be considerably less now

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London

I'm quite familiar with the UK, thanks. 87% the same race and culture puts you in pretty homogenous territory. Of course other Euro countries have racial issues. I have several Maghreb friends from when I lived in Paris so am familiar with the rough policing that happens there.

astuteman wrote:
They are no explanation whatsoever of why a police victim is 500 times more likely to be killed in the USA than in the UK
Or why 16 times more police victims die than police in the USA compared to near parity in the UK
Or why the bulk of this disparity lands on ethnic minorities

The UK has large ethnic diversity.
It has racism.
It has riots based in racial issues.
But the police here don't kill swathes of ethnic minorities in response

As I said before, there is a section here that is not great on introspection.
Out of interest, do you think the current leader of the USA is a force "for" social integration?
Or not?

Rgds

You already quoted my reaction in your reply:
America needs to do better. There's just no excusing the bad policing that has occurred.


Jetty wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
But it's also good to keep in context that America is the largest most racially and ethnically diverse country in the world, and is still essentially an experiment that we're trying to perfect.

Brazil would like to have a word.

They can have a word, but the US is 50+% larger than Brazil .
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:09 am

These are 2 separate issues. The police should do their job professionally. And if not, they should be held accountable.

One part of the police's job is to predict, prevent and/or apprehend crime/criminals.

In particular, if demonstrations become violent or looting occurs, it is the police's job to storm the area and arrest all the violent criminals and looters, and charge them, so they can be put into a prison, which is exactly where people guilty of violent crimes, including arson, belong. I support nonviolent protest. I don't support anarchy. Anarchy is available elsewhere, and if you want that, please leave the US.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:13 am

The American style of policing is the problem.
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afcjets
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:26 am

N583JB wrote:
afcjets wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Flying is largely controlled. Subject to laws of physics and nature that can easily be understood. It is also planned in advance with few unknown variables and efforts made to follow written checklists whenever possible. Policing is completely different. Every single encounter with a citizen, criminal, victim, or suspect is different. Everything is unknown. You are often by yourself. You don't know if the person you pulled over is going to politely hand over their license and registration or if they are going to shoot you in the face. You can't plan much in advance. Too many variables.


Not in this case. That killer cop was at zero risk after he had been handcuffed. And this killer cop had a history of bad behavior and it was clear he was a ticking time bomb. I hope his girlfriend and family get an eight figure settlement in addition to a first degree murder conviction, but none of that will bring him back.


Sure, but this is one specific case. It is unfair to generalize all police officers by his behavior, just as it would be unfair to judge all airline pilots by the behavior of one of the pilots who went rogue in recent history (Malaysia, Egyptair, Germanwings, etc).


I'm not generalizing all police officers, I am generalizing the screening process. This police officer was a problem and he should have never been hired. Another poster noted this is a US problem so I was referring to the US where no commercial pilot has gone rogue in recent history, if ever.
 
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bgm
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:00 am

CaptHadley wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
The problem is the police. And you have seen it again and again, and then you see it even in these protests. The police are being aggressive, the police are being threatening, the police are being criminals, the police have killed. That's what they're doing. That's what the problem is. And if there is no solution, I hope for continued unrest. Keep them at it.

And while we are at it. Why are the police better protected than the nurses of America? They don't even have PPE for the nurses and the techs, but the police have materiel looking like they're going to the Vietnam War or the Cold War. Ridiculous.


I'll play devils advocate for a second. What, pray tell, would you suggest the PoPo do right now. You have people looting, burning shit up, pretty much checking off all of the requirements of looting 101. If you're the PoPo what do you suggest they do at this moment. Anxiously awaiting your summation!


De-escalate.
Don't agitate.
Listen to the reason why they're protesting. Tell them you're listening. Give them a reason to stop the rioting.

How's that for starters?
If you hate wearing a mask, you’re really going to hate using a ventilator.
 
Jetty
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:15 am

AeroVega wrote:
The vast majority of the rioters is also not female, not elderly and not rich. So why emphasize skin color?

That reasoning undermines the whole protest. By that logic it should be #MaleLifeMatters. The disparity between males and females is way bigger than the disparity between ethnicities when it comes to police violence.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:34 am

Jetty wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
The vast majority of the rioters is also not female, not elderly and not rich. So why emphasize skin color?

That reasoning undermines the whole protest. By that logic it should be #MaleLifeMatters. The disparity between males and females is way bigger than the disparity between ethnicities when it comes to police violence.


We were discussing the rioters specifically, not the protesters in general.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:36 am

Attorney General William P. Barr's Statement on Riots and Domestic Terrorism

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney ... -terrorism

Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.

To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).

The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”


So, will the domestic terrorists be going to GITMO?? :scratchchin:
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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bgm
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:26 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Attorney General William P. Barr's Statement on Riots and Domestic Terrorism

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney ... -terrorism

Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.

To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).

The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”


So, will the domestic terrorists be going to GITMO?? :scratchchin:


Why would they go there, Gramps? They're US citizens who committed crimes on US soil, so would be tried in a US court under US law. Unless you're implying they are not US citizens?
If you hate wearing a mask, you’re really going to hate using a ventilator.
 
Alfons
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:58 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
The white people criticizing the protests have no business telling a minority how to feel and react towards constant abuse. They have no idea what it’s like to be in a black man’s shoes and know nothing of the daily struggles the black community faces. I’m half black and have cousins and uncles who’ve suffered from police intimidation, likely due to living in an upscale neighborhood. One was even arrested for simply being “suspect”. The community at large has every right to be furious, because this injustice remains a problem and police are rarely held accountable. Law enforcement doesn’t even rank within the top ten most dangerous jobs, so the wild west mentality is unnecessary and de-escalation tactics should be preferred.

Many of the same people complaining now, also flipped out when Colin Kaepernik peacefully protested. No matter how black people protest, they’ll be criticized and that’s part of the problem. The shut up and obey law enforcement, pro-authoritarian crowd, judges harshly because injustice isn’t happening to them and some are just flat out racists. I certainly didn’t see these people complaining when heavily armed white men descended on capital buildings across the country. They’re also eerily silent when white men massacre entire churches, schools, clubs and events like in Las Vegas.

I’m not condoning violence and hate confrontation. The shooting in Oakland is disgusting and an abuse of the genuine anger and sadness a community feels. However, it’s not the right of the majority to tell abused minorities how they should and shouldn’t respond. Our collective history is full of major, sometimes violent, protests that have led to revolutionary change. Who knows what kind of world we’d live in had our ancestors not stood up to oppressive monarchies and tyrants alike.


USA started the slavery 400 years ago when a first ship of 20 Africans arrived in Virginia, who have been sold to colonists as slaves, more than 13 generations ago. It took USA 8 generations to abolish slavery by law, but it took them 3 generations more, until 1964, to create the Civil Rights Act. USA has its civilization living only 2 out of 13 generations with the idea that minorities have the same rights.

Believe me, it will take USA a few generations more, until also all whites living in rural regions get this mindset too and racism disappear.
 
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lugie
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:14 am

Pellegrine wrote:
The American style of policing is the problem.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

They are increasingly behaving like paramilitary death squads from third world failed states.

Some more footage of egregious acts of violence by the police, I dare especially those who continue to "back the blue" to watch these.
It may be hard to see though:




It's getting hard for me to see a difference between this and what the CCP-backed Hong Kong police thugs are doing to protestors there.



DIRECTFLT wrote:
Attorney General William P. Barr's Statement on Riots and Domestic Terrorism

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney ... -terrorism

Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.

To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).

The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”


So, will the domestic terrorists be going to GITMO?? :scratchchin:


Antifa isn't an organization, it's a loose umbrella term for a movement of various leftist causes united under the banner of anti-fascism.

So I don't see how such a ban would be constitutional or enforceable and even if it was, I don't think the government signing an "anti anti-fascist action" law is something I would extoll.

After all, (-) x (-) = (+)
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KFTG
Posts: 813
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:21 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Attorney General William P. Barr's Statement on Riots and Domestic Terrorism

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney ... -terrorism

Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.

To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).

The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”


So, will the domestic terrorists be going to GITMO?? :scratchchin:

And now you love the FISA courts again!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:41 am

The protests, with many participants not wearing masks, shouting, being close together is likely to cause a major rise in Covid-19 infections and deaths.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/dc-ma ... spartandhp
 
extender
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:49 am

Anyone using violence or destruction of property should be fair game for having their asses gasses, kicked, arrested. LMAO at all the people that gave those gathering peacefully to protest the lockdowns? Where are they know? Justifying antifa and their antics. Justifying a white male with a skateboard beating someone to near death? He definitely needs a reckoning. All these people looting and burning don't give a shit about George Floyd.
 
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Lilienthal
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:05 am

[quote="N583JB“]Stating that the vast majority of people rioting are not white is racist now?[/quote]

It‘s not racist, it‘s just false. It‘s painfully obvious and you pretending otherwise certainly makes people wonder if you‘re trying to push a certain agenda.

There’s hours and hours of HD footage of the protest all over the US and while there are certainly exceptions, the overwhelming majority shows people from all races, certainly plenty of white people.
 
extender
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:14 am

The rioters aren't all black. There is a mix of everything. And they all need to get rounded up.
 
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bgm
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:16 am

extender wrote:
All these people looting and burning don't give a shit about George Floyd.


Oh really, you've talked to them all before coming to that conclusion? Impressive!

Perhaps their anger has boiled over for the years/decades/centuries of systemic racist discrimination that doesn't seem to change? Perhaps they've just had enough of being 2nd class citizens? Perhaps they're sick and tired of police brutality? Perhaps they figured they have nothing to lose at this point?

Damaged buildings can be repaired. Lost lives can't be recovered.
If you hate wearing a mask, you’re really going to hate using a ventilator.
 
aerosreenivas
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:21 am

It is so stupid of some people 'Looting' stuffs and damage the 'Whole Purpose' of the on-going protest taking place in the US.

Because, they know very well that they are all going to get caught and will have to return all of the stuffs to the police authorities.

So is it all 'Worth The Effort' for them? Instead, they can all peacefully protest along with others.
 
extender
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:33 am

bgm wrote:

Damaged buildings can be repaired. Lost lives can't be recovered.


Who are you to judge? If the person is a scumbag, trying to rob or kill someone else for their amusement, has no value. What about the people that get beat with 2X4s for defending their businesses? That's not OK. I hope anyone committing violence gets a taste of their medicine.
 
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lugie
Posts: 860
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:37 am

extender wrote:
The rioters aren't all black. There is a mix of everything. And they all need to get rounded up.


"Rounded up", hear hear.
Real fascist rhetoric we have here, but it fits very neatly to a president who wants to outlaw an anti fascist movement.


By the way, why does the president not seem to be able to discern between rioters and protestors?

He's normally so quick to find "fine people" in every protest, whether it's men armed with rifles storming state capitols to protest mask wearing or white supremacists and anti-semites wreaking havoc on a college town.

Really makes you wonder what exactly is so different about the current protests :scratchchin: :scratchchin: :scratchchin:
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Another day another police killing

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:52 am

Does anyone have any FACTS with regard to how many blacks are killed by white cops as compared to other cop killings, when you factor in crime rates etc?

Episodes where innocent people are killed by unproferssional cops are always sad.
But to claim that systemic racism is the biggest problem and the entire policeforce is infected with this, is a dangerous and probably unfounded claim.
This tragic event is being used by radical reprehensible leftwing violent organisations like Black Lives Matters to promote their agenda.

To me this shows why identety politics is poisonous and devisive.
It will always end in a us vs. them.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
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