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seb146
Posts: 22197
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:19 pm

extender wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Do any of you really think those looters gave 2 [email protected] about George Floyd?


Not one bit.

Fire bombing a police station? Nope. Should not be tolerated. Anarchy cannot be tolerated.


And, yet, those same types of officers are still employed. All across the country, there are officers who have no morals when it comes to minorities. There are officers who shoot first, ask questions later. Do you think those officers give two [email protected] about minorities? Not one bit. And nothing is being done about them. And when a George Floyd is murdered and people protest and riot, the same people come out and say "oh, well.... nothing we can do about it except hate the protesters and why they are protesting....."

all lives matter
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N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:30 pm

bmartino99 wrote:
zkojq wrote:

blueflyer wrote:
What terrifies me is that I can see some day in the future, a so-called "good guy with a gun" walk into a seemingly similar situation where the detainee complains he is being asphyxiated or otherwise in lethal danger, the police officer does not appear to respond, and the good guy draws his gun against the police offer, arguing (later) defense of other as a motive. If you think relationships between law enforcement and the people they are sworn to protect are bad already, wait until police have to worry about innocent bystanders making snap judgement on their behavior and willing to engage. If that day will come, the four officers in Minnesota and any other officer like them who has either used excessive force or failed to intervene when a colleague did, will have (more) blood on their hands, including possibly a colleague's.


It's not only that, but now that trust in the police has been lost, surely more "interventions" from bystanders can be expected during arrests in the future if they think that they might be stopping someone being murdered. Even ignoring firearms and other weapons, that's got to make the job of regular cops far more tough. And obviously it is unlikely to end well for anyone.

Meanwhile, the moment that black people arm themselves and organise militias to protect their communities, you can be sure that Republican senators will finally find decide that the Second Amendment does have limits.



As a CHL holder and person that regularly carries, drawing a firearm on a police officer committing unlawful act like this would be a long bridge to cross mentally. In this case with 3 other officers present, you would instantly have 3 guns pointed at you so you better be really confident in your ability to talk quickly and persuade them that the officer committing murder is actually committing murder. I would guess in this situation, had a good guy with a gun drawn on the officer, we'd have more than one dead person.


In this particular situation I think a better option would have been to bum rush the officer and try to knock him off Floyd. Doing so would give Floyd some air and it is unlikely that the officer would be able to restrain him in the exact same position since he would be dealing with an additional person to now restrain. Plus, it is better to catch whatever charge that entails than it is to catch a homicide charge or to catch 15 bullets.
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Do any of you really think those looters gave 2 [email protected] about George Floyd?


Not one bit.

Fire bombing a police station? Nope. Should not be tolerated. Anarchy cannot be tolerated.


And, yet, those same types of officers are still employed. All across the country, there are officers who have no morals when it comes to minorities. There are officers who shoot first, ask questions later. Do you think those officers give two [email protected] about minorities? Not one bit. And nothing is being done about them. And when a George Floyd is murdered and people protest and riot, the same people come out and say "oh, well.... nothing we can do about it except hate the protesters and why they are protesting....."

all lives matter


There are bad people in every group. In a group of 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers, there are going to be people who have no business being cops. It always has been that way and unfortunately it always will be that way.

Also, no one is criticizing the protesters. Just the rioters, and they completely deserve criticism (as well as criminal charges when possible).
 
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seb146
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:36 pm

N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:

Not one bit.

Fire bombing a police station? Nope. Should not be tolerated. Anarchy cannot be tolerated.


And, yet, those same types of officers are still employed. All across the country, there are officers who have no morals when it comes to minorities. There are officers who shoot first, ask questions later. Do you think those officers give two [email protected] about minorities? Not one bit. And nothing is being done about them. And when a George Floyd is murdered and people protest and riot, the same people come out and say "oh, well.... nothing we can do about it except hate the protesters and why they are protesting....."

all lives matter


There are bad people in every group. In a group of 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers, there are going to be people who have no business being cops. It always has been that way and unfortunately it always will be that way.


So just let cops kill whoever they want then become outraged over people protesting and rioting. That is the solution? How about we make it easier to call out those officers who have no business being officers? It seems like that would lower the chances of protests and riots and killing of unarmed or innocent people.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:44 pm

seb146 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And, yet, those same types of officers are still employed. All across the country, there are officers who have no morals when it comes to minorities. There are officers who shoot first, ask questions later. Do you think those officers give two [email protected] about minorities? Not one bit. And nothing is being done about them. And when a George Floyd is murdered and people protest and riot, the same people come out and say "oh, well.... nothing we can do about it except hate the protesters and why they are protesting....."

all lives matter


There are bad people in every group. In a group of 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers, there are going to be people who have no business being cops. It always has been that way and unfortunately it always will be that way.


So just let cops kill whoever they want then become outraged over people protesting and rioting. That is the solution? How about we make it easier to call out those officers who have no business being officers? It seems like that would lower the chances of protests and riots and killing of unarmed or innocent people.


Of course not. Make an example of the bad cops (like the ones in Minneapolis). Charge them and send them to prison. Protest injustice. But also recognize that we will never achieve perfection. And also recognize that everything is not always at it initially seems (see: Ferguson, Charlotte, Raleigh, Memphis, Baton Rouge, etc). Stop damaging the movement towards justice by protesting justifiable police actions and instead concentrate on the reprehensible acts like what happened to Mr. Floyd.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:46 pm

N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

There are bad people in every group. In a group of 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers, there are going to be people who have no business being cops. It always has been that way and unfortunately it always will be that way.


So just let cops kill whoever they want then become outraged over people protesting and rioting. That is the solution? How about we make it easier to call out those officers who have no business being officers? It seems like that would lower the chances of protests and riots and killing of unarmed or innocent people.


Of course not. Make an example of the bad cops (like the ones in Minneapolis). Charge them and send them to prison. Protest injustice. But also recognize that we will never achieve perfection. And also recognize that everything is not always at it initially seems (see: Ferguson, Charlotte, Raleigh, Memphis, Baton Rouge, etc). Stop damaging the movement towards justice by protesting justifiable police actions and instead concentrate on the reprehensible acts like what happened to Mr. Floyd.


Yes but that doesn't go far enough. Class also influences outcomes, which is also injustice. We are all supposed to be equal before the law - not better or worse off depending on bank account and friends with influence.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:52 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Yes but that doesn't go far enough. Class also influences outcomes, which is also injustice. We are all supposed to be equal before the law - not better or worse off depending on bank account and friends with influence.


How do you propose to do that? I am with you on we're all equal under the eyes of the law, but sometimes Lady Justice has a sway for one reason or another and the verdict doesn't go the way it was expected. Some trials aren't perfect, and sometimes the guilty goes unpunished for their crimes.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:05 pm

extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes but that doesn't go far enough. Class also influences outcomes, which is also injustice. We are all supposed to be equal before the law - not better or worse off depending on bank account and friends with influence.


How do you propose to do that? I am with you on we're all equal under the eyes of the law, but sometimes Lady Justice has a sway for one reason or another and the verdict doesn't go the way it was expected. Some trials aren't perfect, and sometimes the guilty goes unpunished for their crimes.


I don’t know - it’s a tough nut to crack when corruption and influence have prevailed so long. Perhaps a starting point is public acknowledgment of the problem. I had a comment earlier about watching the new Epstein doc and being impressed by how intimidation was used so effectively to get state and federal authorities off the scent, but it was deleted. Had middle or lower class people done the same, they’d still be in the can now.

One source of social frustration and feeling unheard is the sense that others in society are untouchable - and there’s an obviou$ link between them all. When people in your community are targeted unjustly, that just feels even more raw.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:12 pm

N583JB wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
zkojq wrote:



It's not only that, but now that trust in the police has been lost, surely more "interventions" from bystanders can be expected during arrests in the future if they think that they might be stopping someone being murdered. Even ignoring firearms and other weapons, that's got to make the job of regular cops far more tough. And obviously it is unlikely to end well for anyone.

Meanwhile, the moment that black people arm themselves and organise militias to protect their communities, you can be sure that Republican senators will finally find decide that the Second Amendment does have limits.



As a CHL holder and person that regularly carries, drawing a firearm on a police officer committing unlawful act like this would be a long bridge to cross mentally. In this case with 3 other officers present, you would instantly have 3 guns pointed at you so you better be really confident in your ability to talk quickly and persuade them that the officer committing murder is actually committing murder. I would guess in this situation, had a good guy with a gun drawn on the officer, we'd have more than one dead person.


In this particular situation I think a better option would have been to bum rush the officer and try to knock him off Floyd. Doing so would give Floyd some air and it is unlikely that the officer would be able to restrain him in the exact same position since he would be dealing with an additional person to now restrain. Plus, it is better to catch whatever charge that entails than it is to catch a homicide charge or to catch 15 bullets.


Yes, going against 4 cops isn't practical, and no reasonable person ever would or should do that.

There is only 1 practical solution to this. The officers need to enforce good police practices on each other OR be faced with life in prison in cases like this. They should be held EQUALLY responsible for what their team did on that day.

That is how you create a CRM culture where authority and "bro culture" do not run rampant. That is also how you instill professionalism. It's not about one individual at all. This isn't about the one cop who killed that guy. This is about the group of 4 (and by extension the entire department) either succeeding or failing to keep each other honest.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:30 pm

If you have 10 bad cops and 1,000 good cops, if the 1,000 good ones don't turn in the 10 bad ones you now have 1,010 bad cops.

They have to hold each other accountable if they want to be taken seriously by the public.
 
2122M
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:31 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its amazing how the MSM coverage of these violent protests compared with the peaceful protests over COVID lockdown.


Well, The 'peaceful' protesters that stormed the Michigan statehouse with AK-47s and AR-15s were upset that they couldn't get haircuts or hang out a bars while the country was struggling to contain a global health pandemic, whereas the protesters in Minnesota are sick of decades and decades of systemic racism that results the the killing of black men and women and the general de-valuing of black lives by those that are sworn to protect everyone.

So yea, the coverage is going to be little bit different.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
And the local government response has been also abysmal. What ever happened to the curfews? stay at home orders? why can't they be established when a city is practically burning by violent thugs, which seem led by antifa?


Are you upset the the Michigan protesters disobeyed the stay-at-home orders as well? If not, can I ask why? (nice un-sourced antifa name dropping there by the way.)


AirWorthy99 wrote:
What ever was the purpose of the peaceful protesters against police brutality, this is being replaced by violent protests that have taken all the attention from the larger issue. The thugs have hijacked this problem so that it keeps repeating and nothing gets done. Unfortunate.


Yea, because you and your right-wing buddies were so much more respectful and accepting when a football played took a very peaceful knee to protest this issue.
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:34 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
If you have 10 bad cops and 1,000 good cops, if the 1,000 good ones don't turn in the 10 bad ones you now have 1,010 bad cops.

They have to hold each other accountable if they want to be taken seriously by the public.


It really isn't that simple. If you have 1,000 good cops, 90+% of those cops will likely never or rarely interact with those 10 bad cops and will have little idea who they are. People doing bad and/or criminal things generally try to conceal those things so they don't get into trouble, so if you have 10 bad cops you may have another 20 cops who know what the 10 bad cops are up to. So, in that scenario, you'd have 30 bad cops and nearly 1,000 good cops.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:35 pm

seb146 wrote:

So just let cops kill whoever they want then become outraged over people protesting and rioting. That is the solution? How about we make it easier to call out those officers who have no business being officers? It seems like that would lower the chances of protests and riots and killing of unarmed or innocent people.


Here is one of your famous generalizations. One bad cop is not all cops. The officer who did this will never work again and is going to jail and does not represent all police. What more do you want?
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
bmartino99
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:45 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
N583JB wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:

As a CHL holder and person that regularly carries, drawing a firearm on a police officer committing unlawful act like this would be a long bridge to cross mentally. In this case with 3 other officers present, you would instantly have 3 guns pointed at you so you better be really confident in your ability to talk quickly and persuade them that the officer committing murder is actually committing murder. I would guess in this situation, had a good guy with a gun drawn on the officer, we'd have more than one dead person.


In this particular situation I think a better option would have been to bum rush the officer and try to knock him off Floyd. Doing so would give Floyd some air and it is unlikely that the officer would be able to restrain him in the exact same position since he would be dealing with an additional person to now restrain. Plus, it is better to catch whatever charge that entails than it is to catch a homicide charge or to catch 15 bullets.


Yes, going against 4 cops isn't practical, and no reasonable person ever would or should do that.

There is only 1 practical solution to this. The officers need to enforce good police practices on each other OR be faced with life in prison in cases like this. They should be held EQUALLY responsible for what their team did on that day.

That is how you create a CRM culture where authority and "bro culture" do not run rampant. That is also how you instill professionalism. It's not about one individual at all. This isn't about the one cop who killed that guy. This is about the group of 4 (and by extension the entire department) either succeeding or failing to keep each other honest.



Agreed. This sounds more and more like a classic failure of CRM. The officer committing the crime was a 15+ year veteran and the other three were with the force for less than 3 years. The officer has officially been arrested now, no word on charges.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:46 pm

N583JB wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
If you have 10 bad cops and 1,000 good cops, if the 1,000 good ones don't turn in the 10 bad ones you now have 1,010 bad cops.

They have to hold each other accountable if they want to be taken seriously by the public.


It really isn't that simple. If you have 1,000 good cops, 90+% of those cops will likely never or rarely interact with those 10 bad cops and will have little idea who they are. People doing bad and/or criminal things generally try to conceal those things so they don't get into trouble, so if you have 10 bad cops you may have another 20 cops who know what the 10 bad cops are up to. So, in that scenario, you'd have 30 bad cops and nearly 1,000 good cops.


I agree with jetmatt777.

If there 10 bad cops and 1,000 good cops, 99% of the time, a bad cop will be interfacing with a good cop. That 99% of the time is ample opportunity to turn in the bad cop and get him fired or prosecuted. If that is not being done, it means you have hundreds of bad cops - or, you might have 1,000 cops who are complicit in the misconduct, and only 10 who are not complicit and are ostracized (google Adrian Schoolcraft).
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:50 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
N583JB wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
If you have 10 bad cops and 1,000 good cops, if the 1,000 good ones don't turn in the 10 bad ones you now have 1,010 bad cops.

They have to hold each other accountable if they want to be taken seriously by the public.


It really isn't that simple. If you have 1,000 good cops, 90+% of those cops will likely never or rarely interact with those 10 bad cops and will have little idea who they are. People doing bad and/or criminal things generally try to conceal those things so they don't get into trouble, so if you have 10 bad cops you may have another 20 cops who know what the 10 bad cops are up to. So, in that scenario, you'd have 30 bad cops and nearly 1,000 good cops.


I agree with jetmatt777.

If there 10 bad cops and 1,000 good cops, 99% of the time, a bad cop will be interfacing with a good cop. That 99% of the time is ample opportunity to turn in the bad cop and get him fired or prosecuted. If that is not being done, it means you have hundreds of bad cops - or, you might have 1,000 cops who are complicit in the misconduct, and only 10 who are not complicit and are ostracized (google Adrian Schoolcraft).


The math doesn't add up. That's like saying that you should be held accountable for criminal acts that someone who lives three block away does, even though you only saw this person once in your life and had no idea who they were.
 
apodino
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 6:03 pm

It turns out that this is not the first time this cop has been involved in something like this. In 2006 Chauvin was involved in the shooting of Wayne Reyes years ago. The cops involved in the case were never prosecuted. And the person who was district attorney who didn't prosecute these people was Amy Klobuchar, who Biden is vetting for VP as we speak.

https://www.essence.com/news/politics/amy-klobuchar-prosecutor-record-george-floyd/

Additionally, the Police arresting the CNN reporter this morning was absolutely disgusting and was a direct assault on the first amendment.

This incident, and the aftermath is making me sick to my stomach.
 
aerosreenivas
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 6:38 pm

I feel it will play into the strength of the 'Afro American Community', if they can organize a 'Weekend Protests' for a certain period, until there is a 'Police Reform' being implemented across the entire USA.

It should be a peaceful protest. Like how it was in Hong Kong last year.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 7:01 pm

N583JB wrote:
bmartino99 wrote:
zkojq wrote:



It's not only that, but now that trust in the police has been lost, surely more "interventions" from bystanders can be expected during arrests in the future if they think that they might be stopping someone being murdered. Even ignoring firearms and other weapons, that's got to make the job of regular cops far more tough. And obviously it is unlikely to end well for anyone.

Meanwhile, the moment that black people arm themselves and organise militias to protect their communities, you can be sure that Republican senators will finally find decide that the Second Amendment does have limits.



As a CHL holder and person that regularly carries, drawing a firearm on a police officer committing unlawful act like this would be a long bridge to cross mentally. In this case with 3 other officers present, you would instantly have 3 guns pointed at you so you better be really confident in your ability to talk quickly and persuade them that the officer committing murder is actually committing murder. I would guess in this situation, had a good guy with a gun drawn on the officer, we'd have more than one dead person.


In this particular situation I think a better option would have been to bum rush the officer and try to knock him off Floyd. Doing so would give Floyd some air and it is unlikely that the officer would be able to restrain him in the exact same position since he would be dealing with an additional person to now restrain. Plus, it is better to catch whatever charge that entails than it is to catch a homicide charge or to catch 15 bullets.


I think if a nearby civilian did that they would just get themselves shot, not necessarily from Chauvin but one of the other 3 cops in the vicinity.

There is a clear reason no one intervened here because it was a lose lose situation for everybody. The other cops should have told Chauvin to get off him one it was clear he was cuffed and incapacitated and they should have taken action if he wasn't listening.
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N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 7:07 pm

So the officer involved has been charged with murder, which is welcome news. A bit more surprising was the news that this officer knew the victim, as they evidently had both worked security together at the same restaurant for years.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 7:38 pm

Shooting occurred at protesting in Louisville last night. 7 wounded, shooter still at large:

https://news.yahoo.com/breonna-taylor-p ... 56705.html
 
THS214
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 7:41 pm

Jetty wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:


Explain the death of Justine Diamond to me please. Same city, upper class, white, not a criminal but the reporter of a crime and shot death for no reason whatsoever. People itt apply general statistics to specific incidents way too easily. We have no way of knowing if this would have gone down differently if there was a white upper class guy turning up with a fake bill.
.


You know that the shooter of Justine Diamond shot from right to left almost killing his partner? He was fast tracked because he was Somali background. Somalis are the gypsy's of Africa, at least according the neighboring countries.
 
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bgm
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 8:13 pm

Nope, no racism here at all. :sarcastic:

Image
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cpd
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 8:14 pm

scbriml wrote:

zkojq wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/dyllyp/statu ... n003yyN9IE

A cop smashing windows, presumably to try and discredit protestors?


Looks like he's busted.


I’d love to see an explanation of what law was being upheld by smashing those windows. Indeed that person is caught out.

I also cannot see the need to kill someone who is already restrained and with other Police nearby.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 8:18 pm

The lead police officer Chuvan has been arrested and charged by the State prosecutor with 3rd Degree Murder and Manslaughter https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing ... taken-into
This is the same level of charges a MN police officer was convicted on several year ago for a similar use of excessive force (shot to death in that case)
Now the other 3 need to be arrested and charges as accessories to 3rd Degree Murder and Manslaughter. All four need to have 100% cash required bail, rot in a pandemic infested jail until trial not likely until 2022. and if/upon conviction, end up with many years in jail.
Hopefully this will end the violent reaction immediately and hopefully those who did violent acts and stealing from stores and destroying the police station face arrest and charges.
 
N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 8:27 pm

bgm wrote:
Nope, no racism here at all. :sarcastic:

Image


It is almost as if different actions merit different responses. How many buildings burned when the reopen morons protested again?
 
Bostrom
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 8:28 pm

Mortyman wrote:
I have often heard that cops in the US has very short and limited education in policing compared to most other western countries. That and the combination of the clear racism is a very bad coctail.


Yes, it seems like 16 weeks training is enough to become a police officer in Minnesota. Compare that to 2-3 years that seem to be the norm in most European countries.

This incident springs to mind: https://nypost.com/2015/04/22/swedish-c ... way-fight/ Four Swedish police officers on vacation in New York breaks up a fight and people seem impressed that they were able to deescalate the situation.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 8:47 pm

N583JB wrote:
It is almost as if different actions merit different responses.


It is almost as though the rage against not being able to get a haircut is different to the rage against yet another black death-by-cop. Who’d have thought? :roll:
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N583JB
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 8:56 pm

scbriml wrote:
N583JB wrote:
It is almost as if different actions merit different responses.


It is almost as though the rage against not being able to get a haircut is different to the rage against yet another black death-by-cop. Who’d have thought? :roll:


As I mentioned earlier, the last set of riots we had in this country were due to deaths that involved no police wrongdoing (Ferguson, Charlotte, Baltimore). There was "rage" back then but it was misplaced. Regardless, if the reopen idiots had started burning down buildings, looting businesses, and firing shots in the air, the police response would have been much more heavy handed.
 
Newark727
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 9:30 pm

Black Lives Matter vs. Those Guys Protesting Stay-At-Home Orders (don't have a pithy name for them, sorry) is ultimately not a terribly useful comparison, in my opinion. While the quarantine is an unusual and unwelcome intrusion into our lives, its enforcement has largely been peaceful, and not obviously biased or heavy-handed; the people who protest it do so knowing that they can go home to reasonably comfortable lives whether they get their way or not. It's been two months - there hasn't been long enough for patterns of behavior to be formed and resentments to settle. Black Lives Matter, on the other hand, arose from an issue that's been festering for decades. It's merely selective perception on the part of America at large that this is something new. The complaints run a lot deeper - people have lived their whole lives with the reality that their lives can be at risk for no good reason, and the world at large doesn't care enough to notice.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 9:32 pm

Derico wrote:
The US police system was paramilitarized a few decades ago, for what reasons who knows. This is the result.

In most countries I have visited, it is clear the police officers in the street are part of the civilian population, they engage their communities and make it clear they are not to feared. In the USA, I noticed the police absolutely DO NOT engage, and in fact are to be avoided (from the words of many Americans I talked to). They also self-segregate, hanging together in groups of several police officers near coffee shops of the like but making it clear they are separate from the general population and not to be approached. It's just a a bad system and culture than no one in the world has therefore imitated.

That said there are many good individual officers, who do great and kind acts you can see on youtube regularly.

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting. Depends on where you live and the relationship law enforcement builds within individual communities. Where I grew up, cops were very approachable, their kids went to school with us, frequent mingling with other parents even in uniform.

I do agree with you that police have become over-militarized... it's ridiculous the amount of surplus military equipment some police forces acquire. The bar is also set very low for becoming a cop in some areas as well.
 
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lugie
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 9:37 pm

N583JB wrote:
In this particular situation I think a better option would have been to bum rush the officer and try to knock him off Floyd. Doing so would give Floyd some air and it is unlikely that the officer would be able to restrain him in the exact same position since he would be dealing with an additional person to now restrain. Plus, it is better to catch whatever charge that entails than it is to catch a homicide charge or to catch 15 bullets.


While I agree with that assessment in theory, the sad fact of the matter is that very likely in reality this only has a chance of succeeding if the hypothetical person intervening is white.

Remember, black people have gotten shot for much less than outright bum rushing police officers, which is exactly what the Black Lives Matter movement is about.

Tamir Rice was shot dead for holding a toy gun, clearly recognizable as such by the neon orange muzzle.
White mass murderers on the other hand usually get caught alive (El Paso Walmart shooter, Charleston Church shooter, ...)


But, with that in consideration, you're making a very good point about people with privilege (which white people in the US definitely are, in a situation like this) using their privilege to help the less privileged.



LCDFlight wrote:
That is how you create a CRM culture where authority and "bro culture" do not run rampant. That is also how you instill professionalism. It's not about one individual at all. This isn't about the one cop who killed that guy. This is about the group of 4 (and by extension the entire department) either succeeding or failing to keep each other honest.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Exactly. As long as the culture within the police force and the guidelines for such situations don't radically change, I will not buy the "a few bad apples" argument. The one kneeling on Georg Floyd's neck was a rotten apple of the very worst kind but the other 3 had their chance to shine and show he's the only one. Nope. They chose to stand by and watch - so it was not the one bad apple spoiling the bunch, but instead they are all at various degrees of rot.
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Lilienthal
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 10:00 pm

bgm wrote:
Nope, no racism here at all. :sarcastic:

Image


There are plenty of white people amongst the protestors for Floyd. And Trump certainly wouldn't discriminate Corona-nutjobs. He'd exploit anyone..

Please don't post Twitter-crap like that here. It only poisons the discussion.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 10:03 pm

I don't expect the arrest to satisfy most of those protesting. It is 3rd degree and the coroner's report is saying the officer did not directly cause his death.

The problem isn't the protesters (rioters are a separate issue) or the report etc. The problem is a century plus of dis-equal treatment and outcomes and so many on the favored side either ignoring or not acknowledging and accepting culpability and pushing for a change.

There isn't an easy solution, there will be unreconcileable differences between people in how the imbalance and damage is resolved.

OK I am editing this. I was a bit dramatic and dark after just discussing with a good friend of mine:

For me? I think there basically needs to be a decision made in all police departments to not shoot black people, to not draw their firearms first, to work hard to de-escalate any and all situations first, even at the risk of letting an offender get away. I know many will find that unacceptable but an unacceptable situation the other way has existed for so long in the USA that I don't see anyway to address it that doesn't involve risk and a significant change to cautious handling..

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
apodino
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 10:29 pm

Tugger wrote:
I don't expect the arrest to satisfy most of those protesting. It is 3rd degree and the coroner's report is saying the officer did not directly cause his death.


Was this the same coroner who said Epstein didn't kill himself? Seriously, I don't buy what the coroner is saying here and it almost looks like its too convenient in order to allow this cop to walk.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 11:14 pm

apodino wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I don't expect the arrest to satisfy most of those protesting. It is 3rd degree and the coroner's report is saying the officer did not directly cause his death.


Was this the same coroner who said Epstein didn't kill himself? Seriously, I don't buy what the coroner is saying here and it almost looks like its too convenient in order to allow this cop to walk.


I hear ya. It’s almost like JFK died of Addison’s disease, painkiller dependency and a head shot.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 11:15 pm

I'm glad the protests have now spread to LA and DC. I'm in DC, they're down in Lafayette Park right now. It is interesting to watch people. If we were a country that drug its leaders out of their houses in chains.....
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
Jetty
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Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 11:23 pm

Newark727 wrote:
The complaints run a lot deeper - people have lived their whole lives with the reality that their lives can be at risk for no good reason, and the world at large doesn't care enough to notice.

This is grossly overstating the risk of dying at the hands of police. Police in the USA kill about 1.000 people a year (that includes justified and unjustified ones). 16.000 people in the USA get murdered every year and 37.000 die in a traffic accident. I get that killings by police have a symbolic meaning, but suggesting that if you worry about dying for no good reason being killed by police should rationally be high on your list of things to worry about is ridiculous.
 
N583JB
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 11:29 pm

Tugger wrote:

For me? I think there basically needs to be a decision made in all police departments to not shoot black people, to not draw their firearms first, to work hard to de-escalate any and all situations first, even at the risk of letting an offender get away. I know many will find that unacceptable but an unacceptable situation the other way has existed for so long in the USA that I don't see anyway to address it that doesn't involve risk and a significant change to cautious handling..

Tugg


That isn't going to fly and doing so would result in more dead black people than we currently have, because police would be unable to arrest gang members, murderers, or other violent criminals. We have to keep in mind that while the situation involving Mr. Floyd is inexcusable, it represents a tiny, tiny minority of all police uses of force.
 
B717fan
Posts: 17
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 11:38 pm

White House is now on lockdown.
 
Newark727
Posts: 1830
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 11:53 pm

Jetty wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
The complaints run a lot deeper - people have lived their whole lives with the reality that their lives can be at risk for no good reason, and the world at large doesn't care enough to notice.

This is grossly overstating the risk of dying at the hands of police. Police in the USA kill about 1.000 people a year (that includes justified and unjustified ones). 16.000 people in the USA get murdered every year and 37.000 die in a traffic accident. I get that killings by police have a symbolic meaning, but suggesting that if you worry about dying for no good reason being killed by police should rationally be high on your list of things to worry about is ridiculous.


Statistically, the United States should have won the Vietnam War. Statistically, police officers have lower risk jobs than quite a few other professions (I believe deep sea fishermen, for instance, are more likely to die on the job.) Statistically, there's very little human DNA that isn't shared with chimpanzees. Statistics are not what motivate people here.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 12:02 am

Lilienthal wrote:

There are plenty of white people amongst the protestors for Floyd.


An interesting contrast from the past Ferguson (St. Louis) & Baltimore unrest, as a function of the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area not having a large African-American population?
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
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Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 12:02 am

It's going down in Brooklyn, NYC right outside Barclays.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
B717fan
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:32 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 12:10 am

Kicked off in Atlanta as well.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 12:10 am

Burning squad cars right outside of CNN HQ in Atlanta. Nothing's going to change without these protests.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
N583JB
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 12:16 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Burning squad cars right outside of CNN HQ in Atlanta. Nothing's going to change without these protests.


Nothing's going to change with these protests, either. They will only hurt the movement.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 12:27 am

N583JB wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Burning squad cars right outside of CNN HQ in Atlanta. Nothing's going to change without these protests.


Nothing's going to change with these protests, either. They will only hurt the movement.


Nothing's going to change period. So burn it all down and throw it all in the trash.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
N583JB
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 12:29 am

Pellegrine wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Burning squad cars right outside of CNN HQ in Atlanta. Nothing's going to change without these protests.


Nothing's going to change with these protests, either. They will only hurt the movement.


Nothing's going to change period. So burn it all down and throw it all in the trash.


There are ways to effect positive change. Perhaps we should focus on those instead.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 12:39 am

N583JB wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Nothing's going to change with these protests, either. They will only hurt the movement.


Nothing's going to change period. So burn it all down and throw it all in the trash.


There are ways to effect positive change. Perhaps we should focus on those instead.


The time for that is not today, there is always tomorrow.

African Americans are tired of being the bitch of society. You have people angry now. People aren't trying to hear all that "heal the world" BS when they are so angry.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Sat May 30, 2020 1:14 am

N583JB wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Burning squad cars right outside of CNN HQ in Atlanta. Nothing's going to change without these protests.


Nothing's going to change with these protests, either. They will only hurt the movement.


I wouldn’t speak so soon. Lots of educated suburban women in my wife’s circle commenting things like ‘we cannot be so passive anymore about what happens in these other communities’. Not terribly common for white and Asian professionals to identify with ‘the struggle’.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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