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N583JB
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 2:27 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

That is state police training, and it works splendidly well. You may have noticed the lack of people being slowly suffocated to death here. And no matter what stuff people are on, if that doesn't work, they also resolve the situation with less than two rounds fired per incident, which is quite the accomplishment considering our cops are always in pairs, and most of the time without killing anyone. Most years I can count the total with the fingers of one hand.
You know, the kind of cops you get when training is at least 2.5 years and usually longer, and no one gets a gun without proving a cool head in anti-riot ready units first. As it should be.

Best regards
Thomas


That is great for police officers in Germany, who don't really have to worry about being shot in the line of duty or encountering armed people every single day. The fact is it is much more dangerous being a police officer in the United States, which accounts for a lot of the differences in training and procedures.


Do you have evidence for this statement? There is an illegal firearms trade in every developed European nation. Have you heard of organized crime, or perhaps Al Qaeda? Perhaps it is indeed more dangerous in particular neighborhoods in the US in aggregate, but that is not significantly different than the ethnic ghettos of Amsterdam or Brussels or Hamburg. Danger is danger.


Absolutely. There are more firearms in the United States than there are people. Police officers are rarely killed in the line of duty in Germany...so rarely that I couldn't even find statistics on how many are killed each year. Compare that to the United States where police officers are routinely killed while on patrol, and even more officers are shot but survive. In the first four months of this year, for example, 19 police officers in the United States have been feloniously killed by offenders (16 officers were shot to death and 3 were struck with a vehicle).

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... HR4S0B29XD
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12771
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Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 2:28 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
What exactly does policing in Germany and Finland have to do with this topic?

This is severely off topic, there are millions of different circumstances in both Europe and the US, you can't compare them both.

Talking about police methods and such is avoiding the real topic of why these things are happening in reality..


Yeah.. it's "no training worthy of the name whatsoever" vs. "Properly trained and educated police force".
Trained police forces in the US are just about as much more competent that the rest of the developed worlds police forces, compared to those amateurs.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11801
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 2:43 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
What exactly does policing in Germany and Finland have to do with this topic?

This is severely off topic, there are millions of different circumstances in both Europe and the US, you can't compare them both.

Talking about police methods and such is avoiding the real topic of why these things are happening in reality.

I would have thought the topic was horrific death of this man by police, not that the Europeans handle these things "better", without any real and substantive evidence, but rather Anti-US bias.

If anyone is really interested in discussing why this happens, deviating from the topic is not real show of concern, much less calling for riots and supporting them, which in reality there is absolutely zero evidence it will help. Someone died because of the riots... calling for riots is calling for others to die as well, in LA, Rodney King did not die on the hands of police but the riots cost the lives of 63 people.


It is germane to the subject of escalation and training.

As for *why* these situations persist, I put forth some ideas about perceived lies in our 'system' and such, and what I have learned from getting to know people from different backgrounds and life stations, but apologists don't want to respond to such things. You can scroll down in the previous page if you wish.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
wingman
Posts: 3906
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 2:59 pm

N583JB wrote:
Absolutely. There are more firearms in the United States than there are people. Police officers are rarely killed in the line of duty in Germany...so rarely that I couldn't even find statistics on how many are killed each year. Compare that to the United States where police officers are routinely killed while on patrol, and even more officers are shot but survive. In the first four months of this year, for example, 19 police officers in the United States have been feloniously killed by offenders (16 officers were shot to death and 3 were struck with a vehicle).


You shouldn't rush to judgment. In some cases those "felonious" folk may have been part of a well-regulated militia defending themselves against a tyrannical government. I've said this before in similar cases, if the victim in Minneapolis had been able to free one of his hands in minute 6 of the execution, grabbed the officer's weapon and shot him in the forehead, I think For News and the NRA would be perplexed as to how to position the response for POTUS. Hmmm, NRA core tenet for everyone in the nation having 1000 weapons in the basement and 60,000 rounds of armor-piercing ammo or a black man who refused to die quietly in the face of a government employee's tyranny? That shit's a mind bender!
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:01 pm

The issue stateside is that cops in a way are still working like its cowboy era and its just you and a gun. Many PDs don't properly talk about proper de-escalation techniques and instead focus on using force.

Honestly the Federal Government needs to set up some sort of agency to oversee PDs and to have the powers to investigate, and prosecute officers of misconduct.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:02 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

It is germane to the subject of escalation and training..


No its not, the first response on this topic, which was yours, was to ask how did the Kiwis react.

This subject of police brutality goes hand and hand with the sort of situations police deal on the streets of America and the major problems in minority communities, why can't the topic stay on that?

Some seem to think that rioting and violently protesting is the solution, which is not. During the Obama years we had plenty of that, and did not resolve anything.

I seem to think that tying rioting and street violence as the way protest must occur, is racist, condescending and ignores the real problems.

Are we to continue to associate riots= with minorities? Because that's whats being done to actually encourage it whenever there is police brutality.

How do non- minorities resolve their problems? Perhaps we can offer minorities solutions the same way it works for others. Rioting a Target, stealing a few expensive stuff won't really resolve anything. And I doubt MLK or Mandela ever applauded that as a way to get the attention of anyone.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
THS214
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:07 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
What exactly does policing in Germany and Finland have to do with this topic?


Everything! How not to kill someone handcuffed and then suffocating to death by knee (on the throat) by police when the SUSPECT is no harm against (four officers) the police and when the police (and other cops there) are having hand in pocket. When someone does it better, why not learn?

That murdered person did not get fair trial for his suspected crime. In Finland he would have. And that does not bother Air Worthy99?

When things can be done better, not bother as its from another country.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11801
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:11 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It is germane to the subject of escalation and training..


No its not, the first response on this topic, which was yours, was to ask how did the Kiwis react.

This subject of police brutality goes hand and hand with the sort of situations police deal on the streets of America, some seem to think that rioting and violently protesting is the solution, which is not. During the Obama years we had plenty of that, and did not resolve anything.

I seem to think that tying rioting and street violence as the way protest must occur, is racist, condescending and ignores the real problems.

Are we to continue to associate riots= with minorities? Because that's whats being done to actually encourage it whenever there is police brutality.

How do non- minorities resolve their problems? Perhaps we can offer minorities solutions the same way it works for others. Rioting a Target, stealing a few expensive stuff won't really resolve anything. And I doubt MLK or Mandela ever applauded that as a way to get the attention of anyone.

So yes, I am all ears to actually discuss the subject a real way and not a lazy way as it has been doing in this thread: "Look at Germany how it deals with this".


You fixate on the beginning of the thread but somehow ignore my comment about how kids in some neighborhoods learn ‘equal rights under law’ in school yet walk outside into a vastly different situation. That’s...curious. So we’re just going to pretend that there are no effects from multigenerational failures of both major political parties to mend the lie of equal rights, and it has no deleterious mental impact on the young in such communities? Fascinating. It’s as if anger and frustration just appear *poof* out of the ether!

As for invoking names of historical figures, perhaps you should study history a bit more. If for example you are going to invoke the name Mandela to support your point, you should be aware of what he went to prison for and the fact he remained on a US terrorism watch list even after becoming SA’s president. He was on record saying he was not proud of supporting violence, but felt forced to by the government’s boot. I wrote a paper on him in a law class in college...how about you?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Veigar
Posts: 509
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Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:16 pm

We want justice!!!! And 65” UHD TVs!!!!!!
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:20 pm

THS214 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
What exactly does policing in Germany and Finland have to do with this topic?


Everything! How not to kill someone handcuffed and then suffocating to death by knee (on the throat) by police when the SUSPECT is no harm against (four officers) the police and when the police (and other cops there) are having hand in pocket. When someone does it better, why not learn?

That murdered person did not get fair trial for his suspected crime. In Finland he would have. And that does not bother Air Worthy99?

When things can be done better, not bother as its from another country.


Well then if that's the solution to this problem, its quite simple, allow all of those police officers in Germany and Finland to come to the US.

The solution is so simple that it will be completely resolved overnight doing that.

Do you really think?


Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It is germane to the subject of escalation and training..


No its not, the first response on this topic, which was yours, was to ask how did the Kiwis react.

This subject of police brutality goes hand and hand with the sort of situations police deal on the streets of America, some seem to think that rioting and violently protesting is the solution, which is not. During the Obama years we had plenty of that, and did not resolve anything.

I seem to think that tying rioting and street violence as the way protest must occur, is racist, condescending and ignores the real problems.

Are we to continue to associate riots= with minorities? Because that's whats being done to actually encourage it whenever there is police brutality.

How do non- minorities resolve their problems? Perhaps we can offer minorities solutions the same way it works for others. Rioting a Target, stealing a few expensive stuff won't really resolve anything. And I doubt MLK or Mandela ever applauded that as a way to get the attention of anyone.

So yes, I am all ears to actually discuss the subject a real way and not a lazy way as it has been doing in this thread: "Look at Germany how it deals with this".


You fixate on the beginning of the thread but somehow ignore my comment about how kids in some neighborhoods learn ‘equal rights under law’ in school yet walk outside into a vastly different situation. That’s...curious. So we’re just going to pretend that there are no effects from multigenerational failures of both major political parties to mend the lie of equal rights, and it has no deleterious mental impact on the young in such communities? Fascinating. It’s as if anger and frustration just appear *poof* out of the ether!

As for invoking names of historical figures, perhaps you should study history a bit more. If for example you are going to invoke the name Mandela to support your point, you should be aware of what he went to prison for and the fact he remained on a US terrorism watch list even after becoming SA’s president. He was on record saying he was not proud of supporting violence, but felt forced to by the government’s boot. I wrote a paper on him in a law class in college...how about you?


No one is pretending anything. The political party which represents most of those minority areas seems to have failed miserably on dealing with these issues. I think if anything they should be representing their constituents rights and forcefully implementing reforms to reduce these problems. But the years pass, and nothing happens. Why is that?

Of course I know my history, and I have always admired Mandela, despite me not liking some of his political leanings (Communist support) I think the way he dealt with race issues is admirable to say the least. MLK too. You did not respond if supporting rioting would be the best course of action.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11801
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:26 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
What exactly does policing in Germany and Finland have to do with this topic?


Everything! How not to kill someone handcuffed and then suffocating to death by knee (on the throat) by police when the SUSPECT is no harm against (four officers) the police and when the police (and other cops there) are having hand in pocket. When someone does it better, why not learn?

That murdered person did not get fair trial for his suspected crime. In Finland he would have. And that does not bother Air Worthy99?

When things can be done better, not bother as its from another country.


Well then if that's the solution to this problem, its quite simple, allow all of those police officers in Germany and Finland to come to the US.

The solution is so simple that it will be completely resolved overnight doing that.

Do you really think?


Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

No its not, the first response on this topic, which was yours, was to ask how did the Kiwis react.

This subject of police brutality goes hand and hand with the sort of situations police deal on the streets of America, some seem to think that rioting and violently protesting is the solution, which is not. During the Obama years we had plenty of that, and did not resolve anything.

I seem to think that tying rioting and street violence as the way protest must occur, is racist, condescending and ignores the real problems.

Are we to continue to associate riots= with minorities? Because that's whats being done to actually encourage it whenever there is police brutality.

How do non- minorities resolve their problems? Perhaps we can offer minorities solutions the same way it works for others. Rioting a Target, stealing a few expensive stuff won't really resolve anything. And I doubt MLK or Mandela ever applauded that as a way to get the attention of anyone.

So yes, I am all ears to actually discuss the subject a real way and not a lazy way as it has been doing in this thread: "Look at Germany how it deals with this".


You fixate on the beginning of the thread but somehow ignore my comment about how kids in some neighborhoods learn ‘equal rights under law’ in school yet walk outside into a vastly different situation. That’s...curious. So we’re just going to pretend that there are no effects from multigenerational failures of both major political parties to mend the lie of equal rights, and it has no deleterious mental impact on the young in such communities? Fascinating. It’s as if anger and frustration just appear *poof* out of the ether!

As for invoking names of historical figures, perhaps you should study history a bit more. If for example you are going to invoke the name Mandela to support your point, you should be aware of what he went to prison for and the fact he remained on a US terrorism watch list even after becoming SA’s president. He was on record saying he was not proud of supporting violence, but felt forced to by the government’s boot. I wrote a paper on him in a law class in college...how about you?


No one is pretending anything. The political party which represents most of those minority areas seems to have failed miserably on dealing with these issues. I think if anything they should be representing their constituents rights and forcefully implementing reforms to reduce these problems. But the years pass, and nothing happens. Why is that?

Of course I know my history, and I have always admired Mandela, despite me not liking some of his political leanings (Communist support) I think the way he dealt with race issues is admirable to say the least. MLK too. You did not respond if supporting rioting would be the best course of action.


You admire Mandela yet he supported riots and guerilla warfare. How does that square?

As I already said, riots are inevitable when dreams and expectations are broken time and again, and it happens in all cultures. It’s not a question of if they are a ‘best course of action’ - they are a *reaction*, a boil over. The real question is how to keep the heat on the stove turned down for good, and to my mind, that means living by values programmed into every American kid by schoolbooks and treating everyone the same under the law regardless of class privilege or neighborhood.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
THS214 wrote:

Everything! How not to kill someone handcuffed and then suffocating to death by knee (on the throat) by police when the SUSPECT is no harm against (four officers) the police and when the police (and other cops there) are having hand in pocket. When someone does it better, why not learn?

That murdered person did not get fair trial for his suspected crime. In Finland he would have. And that does not bother Air Worthy99?

When things can be done better, not bother as its from another country.


Well then if that's the solution to this problem, its quite simple, allow all of those police officers in Germany and Finland to come to the US.

The solution is so simple that it will be completely resolved overnight doing that.

Do you really think?


Aaron747 wrote:

You fixate on the beginning of the thread but somehow ignore my comment about how kids in some neighborhoods learn ‘equal rights under law’ in school yet walk outside into a vastly different situation. That’s...curious. So we’re just going to pretend that there are no effects from multigenerational failures of both major political parties to mend the lie of equal rights, and it has no deleterious mental impact on the young in such communities? Fascinating. It’s as if anger and frustration just appear *poof* out of the ether!

As for invoking names of historical figures, perhaps you should study history a bit more. If for example you are going to invoke the name Mandela to support your point, you should be aware of what he went to prison for and the fact he remained on a US terrorism watch list even after becoming SA’s president. He was on record saying he was not proud of supporting violence, but felt forced to by the government’s boot. I wrote a paper on him in a law class in college...how about you?


No one is pretending anything. The political party which represents most of those minority areas seems to have failed miserably on dealing with these issues. I think if anything they should be representing their constituents rights and forcefully implementing reforms to reduce these problems. But the years pass, and nothing happens. Why is that?

Of course I know my history, and I have always admired Mandela, despite me not liking some of his political leanings (Communist support) I think the way he dealt with race issues is admirable to say the least. MLK too. You did not respond if supporting rioting would be the best course of action.


You admire Mandela yet he supported riots and guerilla warfare. How does that square?

As I already said, riots are inevitable when dreams and expectations are broken time and again, and it happens in all cultures. It’s not a question of if they are a ‘best course of action’ - they are a *reaction*, a boil over. The real question is how to keep the heat on the stove turned down for good, and to my mind, that means living by values programmed into every American kid by schoolbooks and treating everyone the same under the law regardless of class privilege or neighborhood.


Oh, a gotcha moment. Of course not, I admire his attitude when he was released and got into power. Not vindictive, and tried to unite a divided nation. That's admirable.

So allowing people to steal things, allows them to boil down their passions and put a short term pause on their problems for a short time until the next time it happens again and they riot again, then again, then again?

Those politicians they vote for and elect should be working for them, as they say they do when they get elected and take office.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
THS214
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:42 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
What exactly does policing in Germany and Finland have to do with this topic?


Everything! How not to kill someone handcuffed and then suffocating to death by knee (on the throat) by police when the SUSPECT is no harm against (four officers) the police and when the police (and other cops there) are having hand in pocket. When someone does it better, why not learn?

That murdered person did not get fair trial for his suspected crime. In Finland he would have. And that does not bother Air Worthy99?

When things can be done better, not bother as its from another country.


Well then if that's the solution to this problem, its quite simple, allow all of those police officers in Germany and Finland to come to the US.

The solution is so simple that it will be completely resolved overnight doing that.

Do you really think?


When someone does it better, why not learn? That was what I wrote. Simple question? Why do you think that when someone is better why not learn?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11801
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 3:50 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well then if that's the solution to this problem, its quite simple, allow all of those police officers in Germany and Finland to come to the US.

The solution is so simple that it will be completely resolved overnight doing that.

Do you really think?




No one is pretending anything. The political party which represents most of those minority areas seems to have failed miserably on dealing with these issues. I think if anything they should be representing their constituents rights and forcefully implementing reforms to reduce these problems. But the years pass, and nothing happens. Why is that?

Of course I know my history, and I have always admired Mandela, despite me not liking some of his political leanings (Communist support) I think the way he dealt with race issues is admirable to say the least. MLK too. You did not respond if supporting rioting would be the best course of action.


You admire Mandela yet he supported riots and guerilla warfare. How does that square?

As I already said, riots are inevitable when dreams and expectations are broken time and again, and it happens in all cultures. It’s not a question of if they are a ‘best course of action’ - they are a *reaction*, a boil over. The real question is how to keep the heat on the stove turned down for good, and to my mind, that means living by values programmed into every American kid by schoolbooks and treating everyone the same under the law regardless of class privilege or neighborhood.


Oh, a gotcha moment. Of course not, I admire his attitude when he was released and got into power. Not vindictive, and tried to unite a divided nation. That's admirable.

So allowing people to steal things, allows them to boil down their passions and put a short term pause on their problems for a short time until the next time it happens again and they riot again, then again, then again?

Those politicians they vote for and elect should be working for them, as they say they do when they get elected and take office.


A lot of people in stressful life circumstance have more to worry about then when the next election is or who to vote for - particularly the young.

You’ll note I never said ‘allow’ - ‘inevitable’ is quite a different thing. And you riff on ‘again and again’ without addressing the main point - how do you mend broken lives and dreams?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 4:01 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

You admire Mandela yet he supported riots and guerilla warfare. How does that square?

As I already said, riots are inevitable when dreams and expectations are broken time and again, and it happens in all cultures. It’s not a question of if they are a ‘best course of action’ - they are a *reaction*, a boil over. The real question is how to keep the heat on the stove turned down for good, and to my mind, that means living by values programmed into every American kid by schoolbooks and treating everyone the same under the law regardless of class privilege or neighborhood.


Oh, a gotcha moment. Of course not, I admire his attitude when he was released and got into power. Not vindictive, and tried to unite a divided nation. That's admirable.

So allowing people to steal things, allows them to boil down their passions and put a short term pause on their problems for a short time until the next time it happens again and they riot again, then again, then again?

Those politicians they vote for and elect should be working for them, as they say they do when they get elected and take office.


A lot of people in stressful life circumstance have more to worry about then when the next election is or who to vote for - particularly the young.

You’ll note I never said ‘allow’ - ‘inevitable’ is quite a different thing. And you riff on ‘again and again’ without addressing the main point - how do you mend broken lives and dreams?


We are getting somewhere now.

IF we are to actually dwell into this subject, I would start by how the government got into the business of incentivizing out of wedlock pregnancies. That's a very complex and long subject, but we can start there.

The racist issue is another subject, but this problem is more than just a police problem. Its a societal problem.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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seb146
Posts: 22205
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 4:33 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
What exactly does policing in Germany and Finland have to do with this topic?


Everything! How not to kill someone handcuffed and then suffocating to death by knee (on the throat) by police when the SUSPECT is no harm against (four officers) the police and when the police (and other cops there) are having hand in pocket. When someone does it better, why not learn?

That murdered person did not get fair trial for his suspected crime. In Finland he would have. And that does not bother Air Worthy99?

When things can be done better, not bother as its from another country.


Well then if that's the solution to this problem, its quite simple, allow all of those police officers in Germany and Finland to come to the US.

The solution is so simple that it will be completely resolved overnight doing that.


Or, properly vet those who want to become officers and train officers that murder is not the go-to response. I saw a post somewhere on social media that we have more instances of racism and police brutality because we have more ways to record and share them. We have our phones. Since the police will not oversee themselves and get rid of the "few bad apples" We The People must do it. And this is how we do it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12771
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 4:43 pm

extender wrote:
I suppose he needs to be drawn and quarterd for defending himself and/or property from lawless hooligans.


Excellent strawman...
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N583JB
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 4:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
THS214 wrote:

Everything! How not to kill someone handcuffed and then suffocating to death by knee (on the throat) by police when the SUSPECT is no harm against (four officers) the police and when the police (and other cops there) are having hand in pocket. When someone does it better, why not learn?

That murdered person did not get fair trial for his suspected crime. In Finland he would have. And that does not bother Air Worthy99?

When things can be done better, not bother as its from another country.


Well then if that's the solution to this problem, its quite simple, allow all of those police officers in Germany and Finland to come to the US.

The solution is so simple that it will be completely resolved overnight doing that.


Or, properly vet those who want to become officers and train officers that murder is not the go-to response. I saw a post somewhere on social media that we have more instances of racism and police brutality because we have more ways to record and share them. We have our phones. Since the police will not oversee themselves and get rid of the "few bad apples" We The People must do it. And this is how we do it.


I hate to say it but that is wishful thinking. There are over 800,000 sworn police officers in the United States. In a group that size, bad apples will always slip through. Most police departments outside of extremely rural areas do extensive background checks, psychological screening, and polygraph testing as part of their hiring process. That's not failproof. The vast majority of officers know that murder is not the go-to response. Very few people, police or not, actively want to harm somebody else. No one wants to go to prison or lose their job. The officers involved will probably be looking at the inside of a jail cell very shortly, and justifiably so.

The solution to instances like these is making it easier for other officers to speak up and stop something bad that is happening. In this instance one cop sat on the man's neck for several minutes. That is bad enough. What is equally bad, in my opinion, is the fact that several other officers stood by and did nothing to intervene. Perhaps when those officers get sent to prison the message will be sent, "protect bad cops at your own risk".
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4237
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 4:57 pm

N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well then if that's the solution to this problem, its quite simple, allow all of those police officers in Germany and Finland to come to the US.

The solution is so simple that it will be completely resolved overnight doing that.


Or, properly vet those who want to become officers and train officers that murder is not the go-to response. I saw a post somewhere on social media that we have more instances of racism and police brutality because we have more ways to record and share them. We have our phones. Since the police will not oversee themselves and get rid of the "few bad apples" We The People must do it. And this is how we do it.


I hate to say it but that is wishful thinking. There are over 800,000 sworn police officers in the United States. In a group that size, bad apples will always slip through. Most police departments outside of extremely rural areas do extensive background checks, psychological screening, and polygraph testing as part of their hiring process. That's not failproof. The vast majority of officers know that murder is not the go-to response. Very few people, police or not, actively want to harm somebody else. No one wants to go to prison or lose their job. The officers involved will probably be looking at the inside of a jail cell very shortly, and justifiably so.

The solution to instances like these is making it easier for other officers to speak up and stop something bad that is happening. In this instance one cop sat on the man's neck for several minutes. That is bad enough. What is equally bad, in my opinion, is the fact that several other officers stood by and did nothing to intervene. Perhaps when those officers get sent to prison the message will be sent, "protect bad cops at your own risk".


Perhaps CRM needs to be applied to police officers just as it helped improve relations in the cockpit of airliners. There is no reason all 4 of those officers should have been bad apples. If they are as rare as you imply, only 1 of the 4 were bad and the other 3 were good upstanding officers. If that is the case, there should be protocols for another officer, even if he is junior or a lower rank to take over a situation when it appears something is not right.

The one kneeling on the neck of Floyd should have been challenged by his fellow officers immediately, and he immediately should have backed away. Just as "my airplane" can be spoken by either pilot, police need a protocol where there is no arguing and no drama. As soon as another officer tells you to stop, you stop, hand over custody, and back away. This all could have been prevented by any of those other officers doing that. But they either agreed his actions were appropriate or they were too afraid to tell another officer what to do.
 
TangoandCash
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:52 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 6:05 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:


The one kneeling on the neck of Floyd should have been challenged by his fellow officers immediately, and he immediately should have backed away. Just as "my airplane" can be spoken by either pilot, police need a protocol where there is no arguing and no drama. As soon as another officer tells you to stop, you stop, hand over custody, and back away. This all could have been prevented by any of those other officers doing that. But they either agreed his actions were appropriate or they were too afraid to tell another officer what to do.
[/quote][/quote]


This is one of the many things I don't understand about this incident--how three cops stood by and did essentially nothing.
 
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bgm
Posts: 2430
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 6:16 pm

windy95 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
Justifying rioting now?


No, stating reality: it’s inevitable given human nature when people are lied to for too long. Happens in all cultures.

What’s every kid told in school about equal rights under law for all? Outside it may not be the same.


Yep, Democrats have been lying to African-American voters for over 50 years now. Maybe one day they will wake up and leave the party of race division and racism behind.


What exactly have Republicans done for African-American voters for the past 50 years? Please do enlighten us.
If you hate wearing a mask, you’re really going to hate using a ventilator.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1512
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 6:27 pm

TangoandCash wrote:

This is one of the many things I don't understand about this incident--how three cops stood by and did essentially nothing.


I thought about this. Instead of all four attempting to arrest the man and be swarmed by the crowd, perhaps the other three were attempting crowd control.

Regardless, this will certainly set a precedent that police forces need to promptly disengage and arrest.

I do not understand why the officer spent so much time with his knee on the suspect's neck. That doesn't seem like protocol.
 
N757ST
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 6:53 pm

How again is robbing a target bringing about change in America? Can someone help me that one?
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4237
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 6:57 pm

N757ST wrote:
How again is robbing a target bringing about change in America? Can someone help me that one?


it's not. you gather large groups of people fueled by emotion and illogical things happen, including vandalism by people who may not normally vandalize. you can ask your same question about white people who overturn cars in the street when their favorite team wins a championship game. it's called mob mentality and it can turn ordinarily non-violent people into violent ones.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 7:02 pm

What ever reason anyone has to support the riots, or downplay them. This is what's going on:

Minneapolis vandalism targets include 189-unit affordable housing development
The apartments were expected to hit the market later this year.


Image

The under construction affordable housing development that burned in the widespread violence in south Minneapolis late Wednesday and early Thursday was to be a six-story rental building with 189 apartments for low-income renters, including more than three dozen for very low-income tenants.

Construction began last fall on Midtown Corner, and was expected to completed and ready for occupancy this year. Late Wednesday the wood-framed upper floors of the building were fully engulfed in flames, with thick plumes of smoke that figured prominently in widely viewed photos of the riots. By Thursday morning, what had been an active construction site, was reduced to a pile of smoldering ashes atop what was left of the concrete first-floor commercial space.

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis ... 570836742/

These riots only affect those same members of the community where the protests are going on. How is this going to help with this cause? or with the case of this man who was killed by police brutality? nothing, only make things worse.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
N757ST
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 7:11 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
How again is robbing a target bringing about change in America? Can someone help me that one?


it's not. you gather large groups of people fueled by emotion and illogical things happen, including vandalism by people who may not normally vandalize. you can ask your same question about white people who overturn cars in the street when their favorite team wins a championship game. it's called mob mentality and it can turn ordinarily non-violent people into violent ones.


The sports crowd is filled with alcohol. It’s really too bad. I think everyone; former and current cops, people of every race and ethnicity were all in agreement on this one, the cop was absolutely beyond wrong and deserves severe punishment. Then a bunch of people riot, burn down businesses, and rob a target, and now THAT is the story. Even worse, everyone has looked at these videos and sees that just about every single one of those people with the exception of the morbidly obese white woman was black. It’s hard to make real change when you’re given a platform and you go ahead and do this. This will just fuel people that have stereotypical racist views.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 12964
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Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 7:12 pm

How is voter suppression fully endorsed by the GOP going to help ?

How is supporting the KKK, "fine people" etc. going to help ?

How is pardoning white collar (and white colored) criminals going to show that justice is the same for everyone ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
N757ST
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 7:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
How is voter suppression fully endorsed by the GOP going to help ?

How is supporting the KKK, "fine people" etc. going to help ?

How is pardoning white collar (and white colored) criminals going to show that justice is the same for everyone ?


Oh give me a break. What does any of that have to do with looting and setting fire to a city? So some jerkoffs are racist so that gives me the right to burn this guys buisness and take anything I want from a target.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 7:28 pm

N757ST wrote:
Oh give me a break. What does any of that have to do with looting and setting fire to a city? So some jerkoffs are racist so that gives me the right to burn this guys buisness and take anything I want from a target.


Or maybe he ignores the fact that the state of Minnesota is run by a Democrat Governor. The city, Democrat.

But but but, its Trump's fault. Well, I guess this did not happen under Obama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest

If anyone seems to believe that these problems are just because of one or 2 issues. I suggest you take a look at the HBO series The Wire. If anyone really wants to get a close look at the realities that urban America has, that show is a amazing at telling it. Written by people who actually were there to see those problems.

Police brutality, crime, racism, problems of the inner city are separate things. Though some sometimes mix up.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
Jetty
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 11:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
We need riots on the scale of LA a la 1992 to come back. People are pissed off for good reason.


More violence and mayhem? Are you nuts? Can, worms, large, one each. Open it. This is wrong on so many levels.


It already opened when we as a society allowed different treatment for similar situations based on class and neighborhood.

Explain the death of Justine Diamond to me please. Same city, upper class, white, not a criminal but the reporter of a crime and shot death for no reason whatsoever. People itt apply general statistics to specific incidents way too easily. We have no way of knowing if this would have gone down differently if there was a white upper class guy turning up with a fake bill.

aerosreenivas wrote:
Because I have seen several instances, as in this case, were an 'Unarmed Afro-American' is willing to co-operate with the 'White Police Officers' and yet they sadly 'Kill Or Strangulate ' that person.

And I have seen instances where a white woman is shot dead by a black Muslim. She didn’t even get the chance to cooperate. No riots ensued though.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15042
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Thu May 28, 2020 11:35 pm

Due to the pandemic, it is likely the jury trial of the Police Officers will not be able to take place until late 2021 or even well into 2022 - or about 18 months to 2 years or even more due to the backup of 100's of criminal jury trials pending and inability to have juries until the pandemic is 'over'. Justice delayed is justice denied, for the accused, the victim and the community. This will be simmering for a long time.
 
N583JB
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 1:58 am

Multiple buildings on fire at this moment in Saint Paul. Protesting is warranted. Violent rioting is not. Hope the National Guard gets this under control.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3420
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 2:07 am

N583JB wrote:
Multiple buildings on fire at this moment in Saint Paul. Protesting is warranted. Violent rioting is not. Hope the National Guard gets this under control.


It wasn't in Ferguson, it might be in this case.
 
N583JB
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 2:10 am

afcjets wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Multiple buildings on fire at this moment in Saint Paul. Protesting is warranted. Violent rioting is not. Hope the National Guard gets this under control.


It wasn't in Ferguson, it might be in this case.


It hurts the message and won't change anything. The video speaks for itself. Destroying businesses and affordable housing for the very communities that need those items the most will only make things worse.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 2:38 am

This happens regularly so what do you expect ? Things will only get worse until something concrete is done.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
N583JB
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 2:43 am

Aesma wrote:
This happens regularly so what do you expect ? Things will only get worse until something concrete is done.


What happens regularly and what do you suggest should be done?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11801
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 2:47 am

N583JB wrote:
Aesma wrote:
This happens regularly so what do you expect ? Things will only get worse until something concrete is done.


What happens regularly and what do you suggest should be done?


Equal treatment of all citizens, as required under law, regardless of neighborhood or class privilege.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N757ST
Posts: 974
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 2:52 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aesma wrote:
This happens regularly so what do you expect ? Things will only get worse until something concrete is done.


What happens regularly and what do you suggest should be done?


Equal treatment of all citizens, as required under law, regardless of neighborhood or class privilege.



I agree. Do you think looting multiple businesses, and burning part of the city will help achieve that goal? A perfect platform was available, where everyone was on the same page. Too bad.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22205
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 3:00 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
TangoandCash wrote:

This is one of the many things I don't understand about this incident--how three cops stood by and did essentially nothing.


I thought about this. Instead of all four attempting to arrest the man and be swarmed by the crowd, perhaps the other three were attempting crowd control.


Officers can not do both? Yell at the one officer to stop killing a man while telling spectators to stand back? Two officers holding off onlookers while a third takes the offending officer off the man's neck?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
aerosreenivas
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 3:10 am

N583JB wrote:
Multiple buildings on fire at this moment in Saint Paul. Protesting is warranted. Violent rioting is not. Hope the National Guard gets this under control.


This is a 'Chain Reaction' of the people getting 'Desperate And Impatient' with the lack of 'Swift Action' taken by the Minneapolis prosecutors in arresting all of the 4 Police Officers involved in 'Floyd's Death'.

Also, that the 'Racial Tension' seems to never end.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 12964
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:11 am

N583JB wrote:
Aesma wrote:
This happens regularly so what do you expect ? Things will only get worse until something concrete is done.


What happens regularly and what do you suggest should be done?


Unarmed black man killed by cops for no reason.

I don't know what should be done, I'm just telling it as I see it, things can't get better if nothing is done. Just like your gun rampage issues.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:37 am

N757ST wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

What happens regularly and what do you suggest should be done?


Equal treatment of all citizens, as required under law, regardless of neighborhood or class privilege.



I agree. Do you think looting multiple businesses, and burning part of the city will help achieve that goal? A perfect platform was available, where everyone was on the same page. Too bad.


Looting and rioting are not policy proposals or declared action plans toward a strategy. They are a mob reaction to pent up frustration. Conflating things only reinforces lack of nuance when discussing serious issues that require a lot of it.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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alberchico
Posts: 3225
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 4:39 am

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/ ... rge-floyd/

Looks like a local police precinct has been attacked

Image
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
aerosreenivas
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:20 am

alberchico wrote:
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/28/twin-cities-brace-for-another-night-of-unrest-violence-looting-after-death-of-george-floyd/

Looks like a local police precinct has been attacked

Image


Yup. I'm watching the live reporting of this scene right now on CNN.

In fact, there are 3 police precinct that are on fire including the one in this picture.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:23 am

Trump on Twitter: When the looting starts, the shooting starts
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 0780744704
 
aerosreenivas
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:40 pm

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:24 am

Now that National Guards have been called for to these counties, will these protesters be 'Forcefully Attacked'?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 11801
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:35 am

blueflyer wrote:
Trump on Twitter: When the looting starts, the shooting starts
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 0780744704


I guess we’ll have to ‘see what happens’ as 45 likes to say. One wonders, will the white looters be shot too?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Mortyman
Posts: 5827
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 5:59 am

I have often heard that cops in the US has very short and limited education in policing compared to most other western countries. That and the combination of the clear racism is a very bad coctail.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 6:09 am

It seems as though law enforcement was expecting violence tonight, which makes one wonder why they were not better prepared. A local CBS affiliate journalist reported on the air tonight that the police was making plans at 12 pm to evacuate the 3rd precinct. The building was eventually evacuated at 10 pm when rioters were starting to gain access, and is now on fire, as are multiple buildings around the precinct. Even if the plan was to "sacrifice" the precinct, could the National Guard not have been pre-deployed to try and better contain the rioters?

aerosreenivas wrote:
Now that National Guards have been called for to these counties, will these protesters be 'Forcefully Attacked'?

500 National Guard soldiers were supposedly deployed to escort firefighters who cannot reach fires on their own without being the target of multiple projectiles. Which, to be clear, is totally unacceptable no matter what the circumstances are that led us to where we are tonight.
https://twitter.com/MNNationalGuard/sta ... 1840109569
Interestingly though, the Minnesota fire chief reported he had only approx. 35 soldiers available to assist, and he suggested the rest of the National Guard may actually be performing law enforcement duties.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22205
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Re: Another day another police killing

Fri May 29, 2020 6:27 am

aerosreenivas wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/28/twin-cities-brace-for-another-night-of-unrest-violence-looting-after-death-of-george-floyd/

Looks like a local police precinct has been attacked

Image


Yup. I'm watching the live reporting of this scene right now on CNN.

In fact, there are 3 police precinct that are on fire including the one in this picture.


It kinda looks altered. Interesting how zero lives and zero buildings were torched and zero lives were lost when White "protesters" entered government buildings armed to the teeth. I wonder what the difference was? The national guard was not called out when armed White people stormed government buildings with loaded weapons but the national guard must be called out when armed non-White people storm government buildings. Just wondering what the difference is.......
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
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