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VRHNM
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Hong Kong's Pro-Democracy Protests Erupts Once Again

Sun May 24, 2020 6:30 pm

A large peaceful demonstration was held on the 24th of May in light of the recent announcement of the implementation of 'National Security Laws' in Hong Kong (unilateral implementation without the consultation and legislative process of Hong Kong - Direct implementation by Beijing).

Critics have argued that such a bill would effectively destroy the political freedoms, freedom of speech and other freedoms enjoyed by the Hong Kong people as stipulated in Hong Kong's Basic Law (the territory's constitution). The new laws have suggested that mainland Chinese law enforcement personnel may be able to set up institutions and even enforce these laws within Hong Kong territory.

Large crowds were met with several rounds of tear gas on the Sunday afternoon. The march went underway despite social-distancing policies still being in place and was capitalised upon to quell and prevent protests from occurring. Several were injured including a pre-teen boy who got shot by a pepper-ball by the police force. A member of the riot police was seen to steal water from a store though the police force did pay the retailer back following widespread sharing on social media.

Scenes from today:
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1264439770098393090
https://twitter.com/Hope_LiesIn_Ppl/sta ... 9031235586
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Hong Kong's Pro-Democracy Protests Erupts Once Again

Sun May 24, 2020 7:03 pm

I am pleasantly surprised by the amount of people consider that:
1. This being "unauthorized" protest mean people know they risk arrest for nothing more than just being in a protest
2. The number of roadblocks, checks, etc that the popo setup compare to early anti-extradition protest (i.e. Jun 9th 2019 protest) makes it a lot more difficult for protester to actually get to CWB to begin with.

As far as the National Security Law - this is the end of HK anyway. The outcome of a totally useless local govt that would rather use force to ignore the will of the people.
 
alfa164
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Re: Hong Kong's Pro-Democracy Protests Erupts Once Again

Sun May 24, 2020 7:28 pm

VRHNM wrote:
Critics have argued that such a bill would effectively destroy the political freedoms, freedom of speech and other freedoms enjoyed by the Hong Kong people as stipulated in Hong Kong's Basic Law (the territory's constitution). The new laws have suggested that mainland Chinese law enforcement personnel may be able to set up institutions and even enforce these laws within Hong Kong territory.



No doubt they are right.


VRHNM wrote:
Large crowds were met with several rounds of tear gas on the Sunday afternoon. The march went underway despite social-distancing policies still being in place and was capitalised upon to quell and prevent protests from occurring. Several were injured including a pre-teen boy who got shot by a pepper-ball by the police force.



The Chinese central government has no ability - nor, apparently, and desire - to negotiate and consider the wishes of the majority of "autonomous" Hong Kong residents. Like their tactics and use of force in the South China Sea, they only know brutish force and disregard for anyone who does not follow their demands.


VRHNM wrote:
A member of the riot police was seen to steal water from a store though the police force did pay the retailer back following widespread sharing on social media.



Social media is the only way left to expose these despots.
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AirWorthy99
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China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 6:51 pm

It ends here.... China effectively just ended Hong Kong's special place as being somewhat independent of China. Its very unfortunate, I expect many to flee the city before China fully implements this and begins a crackdown. Been to HK, such an amazing place. Not sure is going to be the same.


Chinese parliament approves controversial Hong Kong security law

Move paves way for anti-sedition laws that rights advocates say threaten freedoms, as US opposition builds

China’s legislature has approved controversial national security laws for Hong Kong, dealing what critics have called a “killer blow” to the city’s autonomy and freedoms.

Delegates of China’s National People’s Congress broke out into applause in Beijing’s Great Hall of the People after voting through a draft decision that paves the way for sweeping anti-sedition laws to be directly enacted in Hong Kong.

The legislation, aimed at stamping out protests that have racked the city for the past year, would ban “any acts or activities” that endanger China’s national security, including separatism, subversion and terrorism – charges often used in mainland China to silence dissidents and other political opponents.

The legislation would also allow “national security agencies” – potentially Chinese security forces – to operate in the city.

The decision had been widely expected to pass through parliament, which meets once a year to pass already approved measures. Detailed legislation will now be drafted and could be enacted within the next few months.

The move has been condemned and prompted anxiety inside and outside Hong Kong, where residents have chafed under China’s tightening hold for years.

“It is definitely the start of a new but sad chapter for Hong Kong,” said the pro-democracy legislator Claudia Mo. “Hong Kong as we knew it is finally dead.”

Observers said the legislation was likely to aggravate unrest in the city, where pro-democracy protests have restarted after a pause during the coronavirus outbreak. On Thursday, riot police were deployed after at least 360 people were arrested the day before in demonstrations against Beijing’s plans.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... us-protest

Its so unfortunate how this is leading the world to. China has so much influence on the world that they are getting away with this. What ever freedom Hong Kong had.. it has ended.
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Dutchy
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 6:53 pm

As aspected, nobody is going to do anything. Good luck our Chinese friends living in Hong Kong.
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apodino
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 9:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:
As aspected, nobody is going to do anything. Good luck our Chinese friends living in Hong Kong.

The problem is this is going to reek havoc in the financial system with Hong Kong being a major financial center in the world. If Beijing continues down this path, then it is going to make it much more difficult and complicated for Hong Kong, and it is going to lead to a global crisis that actually will have a huge impact on China.

I agree that most of the worlds political leaders are too impotent to do anything about this, but I got a feeling the financial ramifications will cause a lot of problems here.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 10:18 pm

Will this be the end of Cathay Pacific?
 
Jalap
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 10:41 pm

apodino wrote:
I agree that most of the worlds political leaders are too impotent to do anything about this, but I got a feeling the financial ramifications will cause a lot of problems here.

They are too impotent to do anything about a nation annexing a whole region in another nation.
How counld they be able to do anything about internal affairs in a country?

The West should stand united again. But instead, we're ever more divided. And for some totally incomprehensible reason, this is exactly what people in voting booths all over the West want.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 10:42 pm

Jalap wrote:
apodino wrote:
I agree that most of the worlds political leaders are too impotent to do anything about this, but I got a feeling the financial ramifications will cause a lot of problems here.

They are too impotent to do anything about a nation annexing a whole region in another nation.
How counld they be able to do anything about internal affairs in a country?

The West should stand united again. But instead, we're ever more divided. And for some totally incomprehensible reason, this is exactly what people in voting booths all over the West want.


The West will do nothing in case of annexation. Crimea anyone?
 
ltbewr
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 11:44 pm

Basically, the PRC had decided an early termination of the special status that I believe was to end in 2047, about 50 years after the end of the British 'lease'.

Beyond the obvious power play, this also about the richest and most powerful in PRC to steal control of property, money, banks, from their current owners in HK. For sure protest is dead in HK and so will be any future protesters.

The PRC also took advantage of the Pandemic to do this takeover as impossible for anyone to leave due to the shutdown of airflights. For sure few other countries will challenge the PRC as could cause serious problems with trade and goods from the PRC so will turn their backs on the people of HK.

Now, will the PRC do a takeover of Taiwan ? For sure Macau is next.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 11:46 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Jalap wrote:
apodino wrote:
I agree that most of the worlds political leaders are too impotent to do anything about this, but I got a feeling the financial ramifications will cause a lot of problems here.

They are too impotent to do anything about a nation annexing a whole region in another nation.
How counld they be able to do anything about internal affairs in a country?

The West should stand united again. But instead, we're ever more divided. And for some totally incomprehensible reason, this is exactly what people in voting booths all over the West want.


The West will do nothing in case of annexation. Crimea anyone?


It is actually easier to help Ukraine on Crimea anyway - at least you can send arms to the Ukrainian army.

In HK case, western nations can't even do that - what? Start an arm insurgency there when the locals can barely fight against the local police force?

apodino wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As aspected, nobody is going to do anything. Good luck our Chinese friends living in Hong Kong.

The problem is this is going to reek havoc in the financial system with Hong Kong being a major financial center in the world. If Beijing continues down this path, then it is going to make it much more difficult and complicated for Hong Kong, and it is going to lead to a global crisis that actually will have a huge impact on China.

I agree that most of the worlds political leaders are too impotent to do anything about this, but I got a feeling the financial ramifications will cause a lot of problems here.


And western nation SHOULD dismantle HK as a financial center. Move the money somewhere else - Singapore is right there, and if they have the wish, prop up Taiwan and Make Taiwan Great Again. It will take years, though.

Dutchy wrote:
As aspected, nobody is going to do anything. Good luck our Chinese friends living in Hong Kong.


Let see if Trump go nuts...or go nowhere as even the most hardcore "burn them all" people in HK expect.

Dieuwer wrote:
Will this be the end of Cathay Pacific?


CX is in financial trouble regardless. It won't be the end of CX, though. Worst case scenario CA will just increase their stake and totally control CX.

ltbewr wrote:
Now, will the PRC do a takeover of Taiwan ? For sure Macau is next.


Macau IS already dominated by CCP...since 1960s. Macau actually have a similar law passed years back already.

The "opposition" in general is a lot weaker in Macau than in HK and of course, Taiwan anyway.
 
Newark727
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 11:56 pm

Nothing but a naked power grab by Beijing - shameful.
 
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casinterest
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Thu May 28, 2020 11:57 pm

Everyone knew how this would end when the British left. It is just a slide into history for Hong Kong.
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Aaron747
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 1:06 am

We’re about to see a massive brain drain from HK again, perhaps far larger than the exodus of the mid/late 1990s. What city will be the next Hongcouver?
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Aesma
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 2:46 am

This was always going to end like this, now or years from now. However this helps Taiwan in a way, now China can't pretend that it just wants to be friends and Taiwan can rejoin and keep some autonomy, that charade is up.

Jalap wrote:
The West should stand united again. But instead, we're ever more divided. And for some totally incomprehensible reason, this is exactly what people in voting booths all over the West want.


I see only one nation that voted for that, if even (minority president and all that). Despite some differences, no country in the West was breaking from the US, until the US decided to break from the West.
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Francoflier
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 3:23 am

While this is not good news, it is easy to overdramatize this and get overly emotional.

You could argue that most of HK has belonged to China since 1899, only leased to Britain for 99 years. Back then, I doubt anyone who signed this agreement worried about what would happen then, since they were all going to be long dead. Little did they envision the mess they would create down the line... (much like the rest of colonialism)
HK's situation has been a quagmire since then.

Given the current Chinese government's penchant for totalitarianism, it was only a question of time before they would want their hands firmly on HK politics. The recent push for for democracy and freedoms has forced them to act sooner than they would otherwise have, and the violent turn the protests took gave them an excuse to act.
There is nothing more scary to a dictatorship than a nascent democratic movement.

That said, while they want total dominion over HK's politics, I doubt they want to change the rest of the system, mostly the financial one and its own freedoms. It benefits China in effectively offering a door to the outside financial World, which is easier to do in HK thanks to the '1 country 2 systems' rule. They'd have no benefit in turning HK into just another Chinese city, there's already thousands of these, including one right at the border which is bigger than HK already. HK's value to China can only persist if the current system continues, as long as their political dominance of it is not in doubt. I think that is the ultimate goal here, as I doubt they'd want to create even more commotion unnecessarily.

HK never really had access to democracy, neither under British rule nor under Chinese rule. How anyone thinks democracy could work in HK while belonging to a country that views democracy as a cancer is beyond me. It was always a pipe dream. Unlike Taiwan, it doesn't have the economic independence to survive without China nor the means to defend itself against it. Those who cite Singapore as an example seem to forget that despite its Utopian appearances, Singapore is an ever stricter autocracy. Those who believe the current system in HK is good forget that the city is essentially run by a handful of property tycoons and rich landlords and that inequality is high.

As for the stance the democratic World should take on this, well, apart from the outcry, there is little point in immediate and misplaced retaliatory acts. Targeting HK's financial markets, the way the US threatens to proceed, would only hurt HK more and play into the hands of Beijing by solving their HK issue once and for all.

What the rest of the World needs to do, now being in full knowledge of what values they represent and what their behavior on the World scene is and will continue to be, is to slowly wean itself off China by shifting their commercial ties away from it.
Then again, China's love for Orwellian systems and disregard for basic human values has never stopped any other nation from doing business with them before or any of us from buying tons of Chinese stuff.
China as it stands has only got to where it is because the West kept giving it business and showered it with cash despite all evidence of the unbridgeable gap in values between them. Greed was always more important than human rights...
..which now makes me smirk at the feigned surprise and outrage of the West.
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wingman
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 3:27 am

I hate Trump with a passion. He’s a destructive force to core Western ideals cherished by most of us here. China and Russia are infinitely more destructive still. So this is a chance to set differences with Trump aside and stand united against China for the sake of HK. I see Canada, the UK and Australia joining us but sadly the EU us already whimpering its excuses, just like they did when China told them to alter their COVID declaration. Guys, please implore your friends and governments to give a voice to people that need it. Aesma, Dutch..look to your own history to see what happens when you just fold your tent at the first sign of a challenge. Poland, Holland, France, Crimea, Ukraine, the South China Sea, and now HK. I have a feeling if the EU found its lost ball sack in the attic and stood tall with the rest of us and gave China the big giant Fuck You they deserve that they’d blink first. They want nothing more than to cement this final fissure between us to establish precedent for another 50-100 years. If you look hard enough the ball sack is there, please search for it.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 4:00 am

Dieuwer wrote:
The West will do nothing in case of annexation. Crimea anyone?

Thats apples to oranges. Crimea was 100% Ukrainian territory whereas the PRC still had quite a bit of control over Hong Kong. I don't agree at all with either situation and I believe Hong Kong would be best as a Singapore-like city-state, but wasn't the endgame always full integration in to the PRC?

In an alternate reality, it wouldve been real interesting to see what would've happened if the Brits gave HK to Taiwan instead of PRC, same with Portugal and Macau.
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Aesma
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 4:05 am

Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
alfa164
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 4:11 am

Francoflier wrote:
Given the current Chinese government's penchant for totalitarianism, it was only a question of time before they would want their hands firmly on HK politics. The recent push for for democracy and freedoms has forced them to act sooner than they would otherwise have, and the violent turn the protests took gave them an excuse to act. There is nothing more scary to a dictatorship than a nascent democratic movement.

That said, while they want total dominion over HK's politics, I doubt they want to change the rest of the system, mostly the financial one and its own freedoms. It benefits China in effectively offering a door to the outside financial World, which is easier to do in HK thanks to the '1 country 2 systems' rule. They'd have no benefit in turning HK into just another Chinese city, there's already thousands of these, including one right at the border which is bigger than HK already. HK's value to China can only persist if the current system continues, as long as their political dominance of it is not in doubt. I think that is the ultimate goal here, as I doubt they'd want to create even more commotion unnecessarily..


If this were 1998, you would probably be right. Hong Kong was the economic and financial engine that China could only dream of becoming. In the intervening years, though, China has become that powerhouse, and its need for Hong Kong has faded. Now it has far less dependence on HK for the monies it brought, and less fear of destroying what is now a far smaller contribution to its economy.


Francoflier wrote:
As for the stance the democratic World should take on this, well, apart from the outcry, there is little point in immediate and misplaced retaliatory acts. Targeting HK's financial markets, the way the US threatens to proceed, would only hurt HK more and play into the hands of Beijing by solving their HK issue once and for all.


Correct. It is hard to sanction the "bad" Hong Kong without equally affecting the "good" Hong Kong. Indeed, I doubt even the highest levels of most Western governments could tell us which major businesses were supporting, behind the scenes, the protestors, and which were lemmings of the mainland government.


Francoflier wrote:
What the rest of the World needs to do, now being in full knowledge of what values they represent and what their behavior on the World scene is and will continue to be, is to slowly wean itself off China by shifting their commercial ties away from it. Then again, China's love for Orwellian systems and disregard for basic human values has never stopped any other nation from doing business with them before or any of us from buying tons of Chinese stuff. China as it stands has only got to where it is because the West kept giving it business and showered it with cash despite all evidence of the unbridgeable gap in values between them. Greed was always more important than human rights...


Indeed, our insatiable desire for cheap "luxuries" is what has given China the power to disregard its promises and take direct control of Hong Kong, while stifling dissent and cries for freedom. Until we can all wean ourselves off China's tit, we are the problem as much as Xi Jinping and his henchmen are. If consumers were to make it a point to avoid Chinese-made goods - and I mean millions of consumers - then China might get the message. Otherwise, the West can do whatever it wants to do, while the Chinese oligarchs laugh all the way to the bank.
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flyguy89
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 4:17 am

Aesma wrote:
Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.

Israel is not China. Good lord :roll:
 
tommy1808
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 5:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
As aspected, nobody is going to do anything. Good luck our Chinese friends living in Hong Kong.


Since that clearly is a violation of treaty the UK should demand Hongkong back. Splendid reason to bring some sanctions.

Aesma wrote:
Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.


any dictatorship is, by definition, worse than any democracy. We shouldn´t even treat them as real countries, give up the WTO and replace it with an organisation only admitting democracies, with only those getting most favored nation status.

And it is not soooo difficult to look at a label, see "made in the PRC", and leave it in the store or return it to the online vendor.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 5:44 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.

Israel is not China. Good lord :roll:


Please explain how this is not at least a partially apt comparison. States need not be communist to relegate citizens to second or third class status.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Mortyman
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 5:52 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.

Israel is not China. Good lord :roll:



Please explain
 
tommy1808
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 6:33 am

Mortyman wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.

Israel is not China. Good lord :roll:



Please explain


China signed a treaty that it is currently violating. They guaranteed autonomy for 50 years.

And with Hongkong gone, all Hongkong specific trade regulations and FTAs should be void.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
flyguy89
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 8:03 am

Aaron747 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.

Israel is not China. Good lord :roll:


Please explain how this is not at least a partially apt comparison. States need not be communist to relegate citizens to second or third class status.

One is a democracy, one is a totalitarian dictatorship. Arabs in Israel could flip off Netanyahu and freely denounce his policies openly to anyone with an ear with no repercussions. Want to try that in China and see how it goes? And then of course there's also the scale of difference in military strengths between the two which also explains the weight issues relating to China are given.

One could make similar criticisms of countries like the US or France if we're going down the moral relativism route, but no reasonable person would seriously conclude they're in the same ballpark as China. None of this is to preclude criticisms of Israel, but again Israel is not China.
 
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seahawk
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 9:09 am

Nothing wrong with China taking back control.
 
extender
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 9:18 am

Dutchy wrote:
As aspected, nobody is going to do anything. Good luck our Chinese friends living in Hong Kong.


Same thing as thoughts and prayers?
 
Max Q
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 9:52 am

Mortyman wrote:
The British should have held on to Hong Kong. It was folish to let go of it and think that China would abide by the agreement set and let it stay independent / autonomus for long. This was never gonna end well ...



Nice idea but how could they possibly have held on to HK ?


Putting aside the treaty expiration China could and can take control through brute force anytime they want, the UK could never stop them


Very sad though, I lived in HK from 1972 through 1981 and loved it there, it’s a truly wonderful and unique place with some of the best memories in my life
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GGg
 
VSMUT
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 11:50 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Will this be the end of Cathay Pacific?


No, there are plenty of airlines already operating under Chinese rule. But they will probably change a fair bit as Hong Kong's status [d]evolves. Maybe smaller, maybe more oriented at connecting passengers between Europe and Asia as opposed to O/D (this seems to work well for several other Chinese carriers). Who knows, maybe they will eventually gain access to other Chinese airports.
 
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Aesma
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 12:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
any dictatorship is, by definition, worse than any democracy. We shouldn´t even treat them as real countries, give up the WTO and replace it with an organisation only admitting democracies, with only those getting most favored nation status.

And it is not soooo difficult to look at a label, see "made in the PRC", and leave it in the store or return it to the online vendor.

best regards
Thomas


Well the WTO took what, 50 years to be made ? It's not going to be easy to change everything, China is a big member but far from the only dictatorship on the planet, unfortunately.

As for stuff made in China, often there is no alternative, or when there is one, the price difference is so huge that for many people there is no choice. I think a progressive approach is better, while making clear to China why we're doing it. We must be ready to pay the price though, losing the Chinese market, and losing Chinese investments.

I try to avoid PRC made items when I can, for example for clothing. I don't like that they always print English stuff on T-Shirts and the like even when they're destined for the French market (even featuring US college sports teams etc. that we don't know, probably violating some copyrights in the process). I also avoid Israel made stuff and fruits, incidentally.
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tommy1808
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
any dictatorship is, by definition, worse than any democracy. We shouldn´t even treat them as real countries, give up the WTO and replace it with an organisation only admitting democracies, with only those getting most favored nation status.

And it is not soooo difficult to look at a label, see "made in the PRC", and leave it in the store or return it to the online vendor.

best regards
Thomas


Well the WTO took what, 50 years to be made ? It's not going to be easy to change everything, China is a big member but far from the only dictatorship on the planet, unfortunately.


There are only a few left actually.
No need to reinvent the wheel. Copy, Paste WTO treaty and schedules, add language to exclude Dictatorships, leave WTO, charge Dictatorships 100% tariff starting next day. Done, dusted.

for stuff made in China, often there is no alternative, or when there is one, the price difference is so huge that for many people there is no choice.


The PRC works very hard to maintain that illusion. Neither one is true. China hasn't been cheap for 10 years.

I think a progressive approach is better, while making clear to China why we're doing it. We must be ready to pay the price though, losing the Chinese market, and losing Chinese investments.


There is no one in China with the legitimation to discuss. We would also not lose Chinese investments. They invest money we give them first. We can just as well give the money to somebody else and they invest it just as well.

A simple "have free elections, and we welcome you back with open arms" would suffice.

Or tell them what I tell possible suppliers after a friendly "I am sorry, but we don't source components from the PRC per product policy" wasn't clear enough?

"Is there anything we can do to change your mind? Invite you to a factory visit (now there is a thinly veiled bribe), or, or...?"
"You could overthrow your government, or move your company to a proper country, then we can talk, your products look great".

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
StarAC17
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 3:06 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
We’re about to see a massive brain drain from HK again, perhaps far larger than the exodus of the mid/late 1990s. What city will be the next Hongcouver?


As said I think it will be Taipei and I agree all the western nations should unite and acknowledge Taiwan as a sovereign state.

The one thing Trump has done right is his stance on China. The only problem is that he has alienated traditional US allies also so we are all stuck in between a rock and hard place. The last thing you should have done here is piss off the EU and make them doubt that the US has their back and vice-versa. Now if there was a new cold war the west stands to actually lose because the US and Europe are fragmented.
I know the TPP is far from perfect but it was in place to have an alliance of Pacific nations to counter China's trade clout.

Canada is stuck because we arrested Meng Wanzhou in 2018 under the extradition treaty we have with the United States and now have permitted that hearing to go through.
Australia is stuck because they rightly called out the WHO over their handling of COVID and China has a hissy fit.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
slider
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 3:18 pm

Communists acting like Communists. And yet people are surprised and have some misplaced expectation of China behaving like a good actor.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 3:20 pm

seahawk wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

It is nothing else than what Trump or the Brexit supporters are demanding. Ignore treaties if its an advantage for you and reject any outside influence when it comes to your sovereignty.


Yay international agreements and norms are irrelevant! Let's just have total anarchy while we're at it. The species will be extinct in 30 years flat and mother Gaia will be pleased.


That is the direction the world is headed towards at the moment. And I can´t blame the Chinese, they are a dictatorship and considering how the Western World currently acts, it makes a lot of sense for them. If you are facing economic pressure based on the mood of the person seen as the leader of the western world, you might as well do something that removes on of the biggest threats to your power base. And to be honest never was the chance greater that importing less wash machines to the USA and buying more grain from the US, buys you the end of any form of democracy in Hong Kong.


I shall call my paper 'Economic Nihilism', professor! And it will be grand.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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OA412
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 9:51 pm

Leaving aside the question of right or wrong, I find it interesting there are people arguing the UK should never have given up Hong Kong or that the UK should now take Hong Kong back. Why? Since when was imperialism a good thing? Wouldn't the better alternative be to allow HK to declare independence. The UK should never have been in Hong Kong in the first place, and HK wouldn't be in this mess today were it not for idiotic notions of empire.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
Dieuwer
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 10:12 pm

OA412 wrote:
Leaving aside the question of right or wrong, I find it interesting there are people arguing the UK should never have given up Hong Kong or that the UK should now take Hong Kong back. Why? Since when was imperialism a good thing? Wouldn't the better alternative be to allow HK to declare independence. The UK should never have been in Hong Kong in the first place, and HK wouldn't be in this mess today were it not for idiotic notions of empire.


Indeed. Why did the UK not push for a Singapore-style solution?
 
flyguy89
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 10:16 pm

OA412 wrote:
Leaving aside the question of right or wrong, I find it interesting there are people arguing the UK should never have given up Hong Kong or that the UK should now take Hong Kong back. Why? Since when was imperialism a good thing? Wouldn't the better alternative be to allow HK to declare independence. The UK should never have been in Hong Kong in the first place, and HK wouldn't be in this mess today were it not for idiotic notions of empire.

Ideally, yes HKers should certainly have the right of self-determination. But from strictly an outcomes-based perspective, a continuation or evolution of inclusion in the UK would be preferable to full incorporation into mainland China...self-determination and potential independence even more so depending on what HKers desire.
 
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Tugger
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 10:26 pm

So President Trump has officially called for revoking HK's special trade status with the US:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -hong-kong

For once I agree with him! (I actually agree with quite a bit of the harder stance he has taken with China).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
johns624
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 11:44 pm

Aesma wrote:
Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.

See, you fell for the trap. It's always "what's the US going to do?" or the like. This isn't a US problem, it's the world's problem. Like Benjamin Franklin said "if we don't hang together we shall surely all hang separately". There is also Martin Niemoller's poem "First they came...". Both are appropriate. The only major countries saying anything are the US and Australia.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Fri May 29, 2020 11:57 pm

Tugger wrote:
So President Trump has officially called for revoking HK's special trade status with the US:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -hong-kong

For once I agree with him! (I actually agree with quite a bit of the harder stance he has taken with China).

Tugg


A start, but far from enough.

For someone like me who's born in HK, though, it is just crazy to hear a US president dedicated a press conference talking about HK and HK alone. That is definitely sending a message.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 1:16 am

I don't think China will be impressed by Trumps' speech. And any real sanctions by the US can always be responded with in kind.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Hong Kong's Pro-Democracy Protests Erupts Once Again

Sat May 30, 2020 3:50 am

alfa164 wrote:
VRHNM wrote:
Critics have argued that such a bill would effectively destroy the political freedoms, freedom of speech and other freedoms enjoyed by the Hong Kong people as stipulated in Hong Kong's Basic Law (the territory's constitution). The new laws have suggested that mainland Chinese law enforcement personnel may be able to set up institutions and even enforce these laws within Hong Kong territory.



No doubt they are right.


VRHNM wrote:
Large crowds were met with several rounds of tear gas on the Sunday afternoon. The march went underway despite social-distancing policies still being in place and was capitalised upon to quell and prevent protests from occurring. Several were injured including a pre-teen boy who got shot by a pepper-ball by the police force.



The Chinese central government has no ability - nor, apparently, and desire - to negotiate and consider the wishes of the majority of "autonomous" Hong Kong residents. Like their tactics and use of force in the South China Sea, they only know brutish force and disregard for anyone who does not follow their demands.


VRHNM wrote:
A member of the riot police was seen to steal water from a store though the police force did pay the retailer back following widespread sharing on social media.



Social media is the only way left to expose these despots.

Will there be a huge increase in coronavirus cases in Hong Kong due to the protests.
 
wingman
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 5:01 am

Dieuwer wrote:
I don't think China will be impressed by Trumps' speech. And any real sanctions by the US can always be responded with in kind.


Exactly why we need some help. The EU has such courage to defend organic bananas, and Aesma says “because Israel”..well shit, this is our chance to see what being right and being unified against such naked obliteration of basic human rights can do. HK is our chance, and very likely out last chance to draw a line with China. I can already imagine the newfound confidence they’d have enforcing terms with their cute euphemism they call “belt and road”. Pretty soon they’ll be dry humping the Notre Dame and the EU will be munching synthetic Wuhan bananas saying “at least they’re not Israeli bananas”. I give up man.
 
MSMinHKG
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 6:03 am

For what it's worth, I've been living in Hong Kong for 12 years. Married to a local guy. We're leaving this summer, assuming our visas are approved.

A couple of points in response to comments and questions above:

The bit about there being nothing wrong with China taking back control. If you feel there's nothing wrong with violating a treaty, sure. (Do you actually believe that or are you just collecting your paycheck for trolling?) Yes, there are parallels to the annexations of Crimea and parts of the West Bank. I don't think those things should have happened (or still be happening) either.

The reason independence wasn't an option at the time of the Handover is complicated. Although Hong Kong Island and Kowloon were ceded to Britain in perpetuity, the New Territories (the vast suburban/rural area that borders Shenzhen) were not. The lease was going to expire, and the British government realized that the remaining territory would have been too small to accommodate all of those residents. The only way for HK to be economically viable was within the established borders that included the New Territories. As I understand it, that was actually the UK government's preferred option, in line with their decolonization measures elsewhere. There would have been a referendum on independence; HK could have been a city-state similar to Singapore. Deng Xiaoping nixed that idea. He also nixed the idea of introducing anything like "one man one vote" (this phrase is still used here) in what he viewed as Chinese territory, and threatened to invade if Britain tried it. The UK had a massively better military then and could have obliterated China with it, but the Falklands conflict with Argentina had just ended. There was no desire among the public or in the government to prosecute another war so far away.

Essentially, Deng forced Britain's hand. For him, it was a matter of national pride. China had endured centuries of war and colonization, and this would be the return of something of great national significance. The "one country two systems" arrangement was a matter of compromise: it was as close to democracy as Deng was willing to permit. Even at the time, he was aware that China was a shambles. HK could serve as a beacon and symbol of what China could become, and it could be a gateway as China developed and opened up. Deng's willingness to spend as many lives and subject HK (and the adjacent mainland, if it came to that) to as much damage as it took to get the territory back from Britain put Margaret Thatcher and the negotiators (I'm a little murky on who else was involved in the process) in a moral quandary they hadn't faced elsewhere.

The issue of the right of abode in the UK also surfaced then. From what I've read, that was another thing Deng would not allow. There seems to be -- I'm going out on a limb, but we've seen similar policies and actions recently as well -- a view that ethnic Chinese were almost like property of the Chinese state. No one else had a right to lay claim to them. The BN(O) passport as another compromise, as was the UK's willingness to offer citizenship to however many back in the day. I think it was like 20,000? Some relatively low number like that. It was a concession to China as well as to anti-immigration voices in Britain. There has been new legal advice, however, that this policy is no longer valid in light of Beijing's actions toward HK. I don't think there's much appetite in the UK to see three million Hongkongers arrive, but I don't think that'll happen either. (Countries should be lining up to offer expedited immigration programs, as was the case in the run-up to the Handover. People here tend to be educated, cosmopolitan, entrepreneurial, and rather well off.)

Another point was why the negotiation wasn't with the ROC government in Taiwan, since it was the successor state to the Qing Dynasty, from which the UK had leased the New Territories. By the time of the Handover, China had already forced the "One China" principle upon the world as a means of isolating Taiwan. The UK couldn't lawfully have done that even if it might have arguably been the correct legal course of action.

As for what is happening now, it's a horror show. I don't want to say too much because I'm aware that there is a lot of suffering in the world. There are people going through worse... although I also don't want to be the arbiter among so many shades and flavors of awfulness. I'm in a relatively privileged position here as a white American expat with a stable job, a decent passport, and (soon, I hope) a ticket out. I'm also in a vulnerable position because of the nature of my job and the political purge that is affecting people in the two sectors in which I work. And while I detest Trump, he and his handlers are actually (mostly) right about China. Some facts are wrong and some nuances are being elided, but the big picture is... more right than not, based on the facts on the ground here. I'm not sure exactly what's going to happen next, but I'm more than a little bit anxious about it. No matter what, I think I have to leave for my own safety, and fairly soon at that.
 
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seahawk
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 6:16 am

MSMinHKG wrote:
For what it's worth, I've been living in Hong Kong for 12 years. Married to a local guy. We're leaving this summer, assuming our visas are approved.

A couple of points in response to comments and questions above:

The bit about there being nothing wrong with China taking back control. If you feel there's nothing wrong with violating a treaty, sure. (Do you actually believe that or are you just collecting your paycheck for trolling?) Yes, there are parallels to the annexations of Crimea and parts of the West Bank. I don't think those things should have happened (or still be happening) either..


We are in the age of deals not of respecting treaties.
 
johns624
Posts: 2698
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 12:15 pm

seahawk wrote:
MSMinHKG wrote:
For what it's worth, I've been living in Hong Kong for 12 years. Married to a local guy. We're leaving this summer, assuming our visas are approved.

A couple of points in response to comments and questions above:

The bit about there being nothing wrong with China taking back control. If you feel there's nothing wrong with violating a treaty, sure. (Do you actually believe that or are you just collecting your paycheck for trolling?) Yes, there are parallels to the annexations of Crimea and parts of the West Bank. I don't think those things should have happened (or still be happening) either..


We are in the age of might being right not of respecting treaties.
FIFY
 
tommy1808
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 1:16 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
We’re about to see a massive brain drain from HK again, perhaps far larger than the exodus of the mid/late 1990s. What city will be the next Hongcouver?


As said I think it will be Taipei and I agree all the western nations should unite and acknowledge Taiwan as a sovereign state.


If the PRC tries that, Taiwan just lights TSMC on fire and the Chinese economy ceases to exist.

Plus open season on anything PRC.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 1:38 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The West will do nothing in case of annexation. Crimea anyone?

Thats apples to oranges. Crimea was 100% Ukrainian territory whereas the PRC still had quite a bit of control over Hong Kong. I don't agree at all with either situation and I believe Hong Kong would be best as a Singapore-like city-state, but wasn't the endgame always full integration in to the PRC?

In an alternate reality, it wouldve been real interesting to see what would've happened if the Brits gave HK to Taiwan instead of PRC, same with Portugal and Macau.


They can still do it, they have ample reason to declare the treaty void and demand Hongkong back.

Neither Taiwan nor Hongkong where ever part of the PRC, hence they don't have a claim to it.
Switching recognition to the Republic of China would of course be the right thing too.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
VRHNM
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 6:23 pm

OA412 wrote:
Leaving aside the question of right or wrong, I find it interesting there are people arguing the UK should never have given up Hong Kong or that the UK should now take Hong Kong back. Why? Since when was imperialism a good thing? Wouldn't the better alternative be to allow HK to declare independence. The UK should never have been in Hong Kong in the first place, and HK wouldn't be in this mess today were it not for idiotic notions of empire.


Colonialism is generally viewed favourably internally within Hong Kong. Most Hongkongers (regardless of political stance, even the pro-Beijing) would agree that Hong Kong was a much better place under British rule. Some polls have revealed that returning to British rule would be more preferable than the current SAR arrangement under the PRC.

The positive attitudes towards British rule can be attributed to the fact that the colonial government did make various policies that were widely popular and in many cases set the foundations for modernisation. To most British Hong Kong felt like a place of progress and justice and where the government actually governed with respect to its people.

While the early days of the SAR government (late 90s, 2000s) was somewhat able to defend these systems, the public's opinion of the SAR government waned as the robustness of the institutions in place started to fall apart rapidly beginning in the 2010s. Incentives to enact 'national security law' (Article 23) in 2003, push for national education in 2012, denial of universal suffrage in 2014, disappearance of booksellers in 2015, disqualification of self-determination/HK Independence lawmakers in 2016...etc all add up to the feeling that the SAR government has stopped acting as a government for the HK people but rather a puppet to execute Beijing's orders.

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