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Aesma
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 10:25 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Israel is not China. Good lord :roll:


Please explain how this is not at least a partially apt comparison. States need not be communist to relegate citizens to second or third class status.

One is a democracy, one is a totalitarian dictatorship.


If China became a democracy, I don't see Hong Kong having any kind of autonomy either, do you ?

Israel is a democracy yet is fine with apartheid, is that your argument for democracy ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Jalap
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 10:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
Jalap wrote:
The West should stand united again. But instead, we're ever more divided. And for some totally incomprehensible reason, this is exactly what people in voting booths all over the West want.


I see only one nation that voted for that, if even (minority president and all that). Despite some differences, no country in the West was breaking from the US, until the US decided to break from the West.

UK leaving the EU is another example. Wanted in the voting booth.
Populism is a cancer spreading all over the West. Populist politicians aren't the ones preaching unity and solidarity.

Other political parties feel threatened by the populists. And also are reluctant to preach unity and solidarity.
The West is very far from united, and weaker than ever before.
Trump can bark a bit at China, it'll do nothing at all. We can bark a bit at Russia over Crimea, nothing will change.

Unite the West again, or choose isolationism and accept being weak. It really is the people who need to choose.
 
Jalap
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 11:20 pm

johns624 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
MSMinHKG wrote:
For what it's worth, I've been living in Hong Kong for 12 years. Married to a local guy. We're leaving this summer, assuming our visas are approved.

A couple of points in response to comments and questions above:

The bit about there being nothing wrong with China taking back control. If you feel there's nothing wrong with violating a treaty, sure. (Do you actually believe that or are you just collecting your paycheck for trolling?) Yes, there are parallels to the annexations of Crimea and parts of the West Bank. I don't think those things should have happened (or still be happening) either..


We are in the age of might being right not of respecting treaties.
FIFY

Exactly.
And that might isn't in the West.
Something many haven't come to terms with yet.
And it's a bit slapstick if Trump threatens China.

The West should stop all investments in China and move productions elsewhere. Invest in other countries, diversificate. And the Holy Economy should be forced to accept that the cheapest way isn't always the best way.
 
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Aesma
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat May 30, 2020 11:42 pm

wingman wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I don't think China will be impressed by Trumps' speech. And any real sanctions by the US can always be responded with in kind.


Exactly why we need some help. The EU has such courage to defend organic bananas, and Aesma says “because Israel”..well shit, this is our chance to see what being right and being unified against such naked obliteration of basic human rights can do. HK is our chance, and very likely out last chance to draw a line with China. I can already imagine the newfound confidence they’d have enforcing terms with their cute euphemism they call “belt and road”. Pretty soon they’ll be dry humping the Notre Dame and the EU will be munching synthetic Wuhan bananas saying “at least they’re not Israeli bananas”. I give up man.


Look the US likes to see itself as the leader of the "free world", whatever that means, until Trump that is. Now that it has alienated allies, spent political capital on China for economic reasons, never caring about human rights, the US is in a very weak position to get outraged over HK, that's all I'm saying.

Now about the EU position, it follows in part from what I just said above. The EU sees that the US-China trade war has led to nothing, while costing a lot to EU companies, and the US has waged it without any concern for the EU. Consequently the EU doesn't want to get even more involved in that trade war.

With that said, a "neutral" position is becoming more difficult to stick to, so things might change. In September a trade and investment agreement was supposed to be signed between the EU and China, EU investments typically flowing through HK, so it's possible this will be scrapped.

I think removing Trump from the equation is probably the safest bet, then the US could offer a new trade agreement to the "free world", as someone else suggested, and China could be put aside.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
johns624
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun May 31, 2020 1:23 am

Jalap wrote:
The West should stop all investments in China and move productions elsewhere. Invest in other countries, diversificate. And the Holy Economy should be forced to accept that the cheapest way isn't always the best way.
Another way the West could really hurt China is by sending all their university students back home. They are taking spaces that could be filled by citizen students.
 
johns624
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun May 31, 2020 1:25 am

Aesma wrote:
wingman wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I don't think China will be impressed by Trumps' speech. And any real sanctions by the US can always be responded with in kind.


Exactly why we need some help. The EU has such courage to defend organic bananas, and Aesma says “because Israel”..well shit, this is our chance to see what being right and being unified against such naked obliteration of basic human rights can do. HK is our chance, and very likely out last chance to draw a line with China. I can already imagine the newfound confidence they’d have enforcing terms with their cute euphemism they call “belt and road”. Pretty soon they’ll be dry humping the Notre Dame and the EU will be munching synthetic Wuhan bananas saying “at least they’re not Israeli bananas”. I give up man.


Look the US likes to see itself as the leader of the "free world", whatever that means, until Trump that is. Now that it has alienated allies, spent political capital on China for economic reasons, never caring about human rights, the US is in a very weak position to get outraged over HK, that's all I'm saying.

Now about the EU position, it follows in part from what I just said above. The EU sees that the US-China trade war has led to nothing, while costing a lot to EU companies, and the US has waged it without any concern for the EU. Consequently the EU doesn't want to get even more involved in that trade war.

With that said, a "neutral" position is becoming more difficult to stick to, so things might change. In September a trade and investment agreement was supposed to be signed between the EU and China, EU investments typically flowing through HK, so it's possible this will be scrapped.

I think removing Trump from the equation is probably the safest bet, then the US could offer a new trade agreement to the "free world", as someone else suggested, and China could be put aside.
You're delusional if you think this is US vs PRC. That's what China wants you to think. The old divide and conquer thing. They already have the EU under their thumb. That's how they got the EU to amend their virus report.
 
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Aesma
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun May 31, 2020 1:54 am

johns624 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
The West should stop all investments in China and move productions elsewhere. Invest in other countries, diversificate. And the Holy Economy should be forced to accept that the cheapest way isn't always the best way.
Another way the West could really hurt China is by sending all their university students back home. They are taking spaces that could be filled by citizen students.


Aren't they paying good money, helping finance universities for local students ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
johns624
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun May 31, 2020 2:04 am

Aesma wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
The West should stop all investments in China and move productions elsewhere. Invest in other countries, diversificate. And the Holy Economy should be forced to accept that the cheapest way isn't always the best way.
Another way the West could really hurt China is by sending all their university students back home. They are taking spaces that could be filled by citizen students.


Aren't they paying good money, helping finance universities for local students ?
The universities are doing just fine. It isn't always about the money. I've read about several Chinese nationals working for universities on research projects after graduation who were sending sensitive defense information back to China and were arrested. We need to educate our own people, not ones trying to destroy us.
 
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zkojq
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:50 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
And western nation SHOULD dismantle HK as a financial center. Move the money somewhere else - Singapore is right there, and if they have the wish, prop up Taiwan and Make Taiwan Great Again. It will take years, though.


:checkmark: Speaking of which, now would be a great time for the West to recognise Taiwan again. Now would seem like a great opportunity.

Francoflier wrote:
HK never really had access to democracy, neither under British rule nor under Chinese rule. How anyone thinks democracy could work in HK while belonging to a country that views democracy as a cancer is beyond me. It was always a pipe dream.


So the people of HK are just supposed to embrace and accept totalitarianism then?

wingman wrote:
I hate Trump with a passion. He’s a destructive force to core Western ideals cherished by most of us here. China and Russia are infinitely more destructive still. So this is a chance to set differences with Trump aside and stand united against China for the sake of HK.


Agreed. Donald was bound to get something right eventually and he seems to be spot on when it comes to this issue.

wingman wrote:
I see Canada, the UK and Australia joining us but sadly the EU us already whimpering its excuses, just like they did when China told them to alter their COVID declaration. Guys, please implore your friends and governments to give a voice to people that need it. Aesma, Dutch..look to your own history to see what happens when you just fold your tent at the first sign of a challenge. Poland, Holland, France, Crimea, Ukraine, the South China Sea, and now HK. I have a feeling if the EU found its lost ball sack in the attic and stood tall with the rest of us and gave China the big giant Fuck You they deserve that they’d blink first.


From the EU's perspective, it's very hard to act as one when China can easily start picking off countries and try playing them against the rest of the Union. Surely Poland and Hungary would fold easily given that the EU is (rightfully) already trying to give them the cold shoulder to deal with Hungary's wannabe dictator and Poland's judicial issues.

Aesma wrote:
Israel is annexing land left and right, denying rights to the people living there, but the US is fine with that, I don't see how the US can have any moral ground to protest against this.


Likewise, the USA has not ratified the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. This, the same United States which get's very angry about China building Islands in the South China Sea which they (correctly) claim is in violation of "international law". ;)


flyguy89 wrote:
One is a democracy


:rotfl: I'm guessing you viewed apartheid South Africa as a beacon of democracy too?

StarAC17 wrote:
I know the TPP is far from perfect but it was in place to have an alliance of Pacific nations to counter China's trade clout.


Well it was initially, then the US was invited and it was rewritten to serve the interests of US lobbyists (ie their funders). Regardless of that though, it would be hard to maintain the illusion of democracy when forcing through a trade agreement which the majority of people in each country were opposed to. Containing China is an important goal for Western governments, especially those closest in Asia who experience the CCP's belligerence first hand, but governments are supposed to serve their people.

slider wrote:
Communists acting like Communists. And yet people are surprised and have some misplaced expectation of China behaving like a good actor.


Who are these people you speak of? Literally noone here is acting surprised.

OA412 wrote:
Leaving aside the question of right or wrong, I find it interesting there are people arguing the UK should never have given up Hong Kong or that the UK should now take Hong Kong back. Why? Since when was imperialism a good thing?


A good point.

OA412 wrote:
Wouldn't the better alternative be to allow HK to declare independence. The UK should never have been in Hong Kong in the first place, and HK wouldn't be in this mess today were it not for idiotic notions of empire.


I'm hardly a fan of imperialism, but if it wasn't for being part of the empire, HK would be no different to somewhere like Xiaman.

Tugger wrote:
So President Trump has officially called for revoking HK's special trade status with the US:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -hong-kong

For once I agree with him! (I actually agree with quite a bit of the harder stance he has taken with China).

:checkmark: Credit where credit is due - he seems to be getting this one right.

MSMinHKG wrote:
The bit about there being nothing wrong with China taking back control. If you feel there's nothing wrong with violating a treaty, sure. (Do you actually believe that or are you just collecting your paycheck for trolling?) Yes, there are parallels to the annexations of Crimea and parts of the West Bank. I don't think those things should have happened (or still be happening) either.


I think that's what's important to note here - China is violating the treaty and not upholding their end of it. Overall though, I guess what this debate boils down to is who does a city belong to - it's rulers or it's people? I'll always vote the latter.

MSMinHKG wrote:
Essentially, Deng forced Britain's hand. For him, it was a matter of national pride. China had endured centuries of war and colonization, and this would be the return of something of great national significance.


You aren't wrong but the "National Pride" argument from China is complete BS. When you are a Totalitarian State you control the media and you control what people care about when it comes to "National Pride". The CCP having extreme nationalistic mouthpieces like the Global Times which stoke extremist nationalism become a self fulfilling prophecy. They could turn it off in an instant should they so desire.
First to fly the 787-9
 
flyguy89
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:57 am

Aesma wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Please explain how this is not at least a partially apt comparison. States need not be communist to relegate citizens to second or third class status.

One is a democracy, one is a totalitarian dictatorship.


If China became a democracy, I don't see Hong Kong having any kind of autonomy either, do you ?

Israel is a democracy yet is fine with apartheid, is that your argument for democracy ?

Why don't you include the rest of my post in your reply and you'll find the answer.

zkojq wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
One is a democracy


:rotfl: I'm guessing you viewed apartheid South Africa as a beacon of democracy too?

Apples and oranges. Nice try though.
 
flyguy89
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:32 am

Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:40 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.


Haven't find an English source yet, but here is a Chinese source:
https://www.thestandnews.com/politics/% ... %E6%B6%89/

Basically saying that US is "considering" (aka will probably do nothing) issuing green cards to certain HKer. No details, as expected.
 
vc10
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:59 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.


Sorry for the population of Hong Kong, but I believe everybody thought this would happen sooner or later. Now about this 3 million people who would be interested in coming to the UK where are they going to live as we have a shortage of houses and land to build extra. We are the 2nd most heavily populated country in Europe [after the Dutch] and during the summer months we usually start to worry about the shortage of water.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:45 pm

You also have this. https://theconversation.com/hong-kong-d ... ina-139413

However, I would say that China's actions now basically abrogate that agreement, plus Margaret Thatcher is no longer alive.
 
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casinterest
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:58 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.



Why would the US do it? It wasn't our territory.

It looks like we are in for another trade war, and Hong Kong will lose it's special status in US trade.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-trumps ... could-mean
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:09 pm

vc10 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.


Sorry for the population of Hong Kong, but I believe everybody thought this would happen sooner or later. Now about this 3 million people who would be interested in coming to the UK where are they going to live as we have a shortage of houses and land to build extra. We are the 2nd most heavily populated country in Europe [after the Dutch] and during the summer months we usually start to worry about the shortage of water.


Well, the middle class, who are the most likely to move if things go south, certainly has money to get housing in UK.

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.



Why would the US do it? It wasn't our territory.

It looks like we are in for another trade war, and Hong Kong will lose it's special status in US trade.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-trumps ... could-mean


Humanitarian reason. US also let lots of Vietnamese, Burmese, etc. came. And HKer in general can assimilate into the US society a lot easier than some third-world refugee.
 
flyguy89
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:11 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.



Why would the US do it? It wasn't our territory.

Why not? These are wealthy, highly-skilled immigrants, so the contribution to society is obvious. Plus it's a further thumb at China by facilitating the inevitable brain drain.
 
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casinterest
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:22 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.



Why would the US do it? It wasn't our territory.

Why not? These are wealthy, highly-skilled immigrants, so the contribution to society is obvious. Plus it's a further thumb at China by facilitating the inevitable brain drain.



With another administration it would be a no brainer, but Trump is in the process of his giant anti immigrant campaign.

China may be using that fact to continue it's push, but that has been the intent since the agreement was signed.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
vc10
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:48 pm

Well, the middle class, who are the most likely to move if things go south, certainly has money to get housing in UK.

It is not a question of could they buy a house , but the density of population in the UK especially in England
 
Dogman
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:19 pm

I am really surprised that even on this forum, where people are usually well informed, I still read things like "I hate Trump, but he is right on China". In fact, Trump made it easier for Xi Jinping to act this way. That Xi's autocratic tendencies are going to be a problem was recognized long time ago. Trans Pacific Partnership was designed exactly to deal with it. It would slowly wean the Western economies from relying on China so much, and weaken Xi's bargaining power. Trump ditched it because he believed that he can bludgeon China into submission, and it will be seen as HIS victory. Instead, he gave Xi an opportunity to play US and EU against each other, deprived US of any allied support. Now there are even less appetite for any sanctions against China and a lot of mistrust between the Western countries, every country feels now that if it opposes China it will be alone. Trump does not deserve any credit for dealing with China.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:37 pm

Dogman wrote:
I am really surprised that even on this forum, where people are usually well informed, I still read things like "I hate Trump, but he is right on China". In fact, Trump made it easier for Xi Jinping to act this way. That Xi's autocratic tendencies are going to be a problem was recognized long time ago. Trans Pacific Partnership was designed exactly to deal with it. It would slowly wean the Western economies from relying on China so much, and weaken Xi's bargaining power. Trump ditched it because he believed that he can bludgeon China into submission, and it will be seen as HIS victory. Instead, he gave Xi an opportunity to play US and EU against each other, deprived US of any allied support. Now there are even less appetite for any sanctions against China and a lot of mistrust between the Western countries, every country feels now that if it opposes China it will be alone. Trump does not deserve any credit for dealing with China.


Indeed. Imposing tariff on China AND EU (and Canada/Mexico and South Korea) all at the same time is totally stupid. Guess where China went? Increasing their EU market, and now EU is hamstrung.

America Alone indeed. And how much of the China policy is really Trump anyway? For the HK Democracy Act last year, Pelosi was the person activists like Joshua Wong talked to, not Trump. In the senate it was a few Republicans (Hawley, Cruz, Rubio). Hack, even his speech Friday was probably written by Pompeo.

If anything, Trump IS the weak link, although still far too many online keyboard warriors in HK still doesn't realized that.
 
flyguy89
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Why would the US do it? It wasn't our territory.

Why not? These are wealthy, highly-skilled immigrants, so the contribution to society is obvious. Plus it's a further thumb at China by facilitating the inevitable brain drain.



With another administration it would be a no brainer, but Trump is in the process of his giant anti immigrant campaign.

China may be using that fact to continue it's push, but that has been the intent since the agreement was signed.

You're probably right unfortunately. But he's so mercurial so who knows? Maybe the temptation to stick it to China in such a way will be too much for him to resist.
 
alfa164
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:19 am

flyguy89 wrote:
You're probably right unfortunately. But he's so mercurial so who knows? Maybe the temptation to stick it to China in such a way will be too much for him to resist.


As long as Ivanka gets to keep her precious trademarks active in China, I wouldn't expect too much real action from daddykins.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
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casinterest
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:33 am

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Why not? These are wealthy, highly-skilled immigrants, so the contribution to society is obvious. Plus it's a further thumb at China by facilitating the inevitable brain drain.



With another administration it would be a no brainer, but Trump is in the process of his giant anti immigrant campaign.

China may be using that fact to continue it's push, but that has been the intent since the agreement was signed.

You're probably right unfortunately. But he's so mercurial so who knows? Maybe the temptation to stick it to China in such a way will be too much for him to resist.


I think this is mostly on the UK to flesh out. The US business ties are strong, but with China's intent on take over it isn't going to happen from the US side.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
VRHNM
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:10 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Looks like the UK is offering a path to citizenship for not just HK BNO passport holders, but all those who were eligible for one, about 3 million people. Wish the US would do something similar.


Unfortunately those in Hong Kong that were born after 1997 do not currently have the right to apply and obtain the BNO passport. Young people in Hong Kong are the are most vulnerable since they have been the most dominant demographic in the protests. If anything this group is the most needing of some form of protection.
 
anrec80
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:00 pm

vc10 wrote:
Well, the middle class, who are the most likely to move if things go south, certainly has money to get housing in UK.

It is not a question of could they buy a house , but the density of population in the UK especially in England


The thing is - moving and severing all ties is extremely hard. Things need to keep going through the floor in order for them to pack and look for better luck elsewhere, and just freedom restrictions in themselves aren’t enough.
 
anrec80
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:03 pm

casinterest wrote:
Why would the US do it? It wasn't our territory.

It looks like we are in for another trade war, and Hong Kong will lose it's special status in US trade.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-trumps ... could-mean


I’d say that with Trump’s direction towards self-isolation in trade, he would do anything he can to make importing harder and costlier. Hence HK would have probably lost this status a bit later, using some other excuse.
 
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casinterest
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:14 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Why would the US do it? It wasn't our territory.

It looks like we are in for another trade war, and Hong Kong will lose it's special status in US trade.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-trumps ... could-mean


I’d say that with Trump’s direction towards self-isolation in trade, he would do anything he can to make importing harder and costlier. Hence HK would have probably lost this status a bit later, using some other excuse.



I think if China would let go of it's dollar peg, things would work out much better.

However for now, HK is in danger of losing much of the business that made it great for the west.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
anrec80
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
I think if China would let go of it's dollar peg, things would work out much better.

However for now, HK is in danger of losing much of the business that made it great for the west.


The place of HK in today’s world is a trade and finance intermediary between China and the West. This is pretty much the only thing they know how to do. They do not really have any other competencies to sustain their prosperity. Hence maintaining great relations both with China and the West is crucial for HK’s success. And each HKer (including protesters and their leadership) must have understood this. But instead, they started creating mess, calling sanctions upon China and teaching China how to run their country, thus putting all their standing into a big doubt. if they lose it - the only thing left for HK is fishing, just what they were doing 150 years ago.
 
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c933103
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:26 am

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I think if China would let go of it's dollar peg, things would work out much better.

However for now, HK is in danger of losing much of the business that made it great for the west.


The place of HK in today’s world is a trade and finance intermediary between China and the West. This is pretty much the only thing they know how to do. They do not really have any other competencies to sustain their prosperity. Hence maintaining great relations both with China and the West is crucial for HK’s success. And each HKer (including protesters and their leadership) must have understood this. But instead, they started creating mess, calling sanctions upon China and teaching China how to run their country, thus putting all their standing into a big doubt. if they lose it - the only thing left for HK is fishing, just what they were doing 150 years ago.

Don't forget the political background of Hong Kong. While Hong Kong as a trade and finance intermediary between China and the West have been its most prominent role since 1980s, this role was not the reason why most of its current residents or their ancestors choose to migrate toward Hong Kong. Instead they're mostly trying to escape the turbulent rule in Mainlans China over the past century, especially the rule by the Communist Party of China. However that's the kind of rule that People's Republic of China is now trying to extend into Hong Kong.
What China is trying to do now is to politically convert the city from a Western one with freedom to a Chinese one under their control, while attempting to preserve the city's role as economic intermediary between China and the West. What people in Hong Kong was trying to do is to make it a packaged deal so that If China want to use Hong Kong as a window to trade with the West then they shall allow people in Hong Kong to live freely. Then what China have chosen is that even if they cannot maintain Hong Kong as a window to trade with the West, they would want to have full control on Hong Kong. In view of such situation, what people in Hong Kong want to achieve is to realize the packaged deal and close off this window/loophole for China, to complete the curtain between China and the West so as to weaken P.R.China's strength, such that they ultimately have higher chance to break down and give up control on the city, as P.R.China isn't going to change their mind on Hong Kong so the only thing for people in Hong Kong to get what's demanded is to push P.R.China to become either become nonexistence or become incapable of controlling Hong Kong.
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anrec80
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:13 am

c933103 wrote:
Don't forget the political background of Hong Kong. While Hong Kong as a trade and finance intermediary between China and the West have been its most prominent role since 1980s, this role was not the reason why most of its current residents or their ancestors choose to migrate toward Hong Kong. Instead they're mostly trying to escape the turbulent rule in Mainlans China over the past century, especially the rule by the Communist Party of China. However that's the kind of rule that People's Republic of China is now trying to extend into Hong Kong.


What attracts people to a certain location (be it a city, a region, a country) is opportunities to make living, realize themselves as professionals, be in demand. HK does offer a lot of that in the area of global trade. Freedom in itself, without corresponding opportunities, isn't worth a lot.

c933103 wrote:
What China is trying to do now is to politically convert the city from a Western one with freedom to a Chinese one under their control, while attempting to preserve the city's role as economic intermediary between China and the West. What people in Hong Kong was trying to do is to make it a packaged deal so that If China want to use Hong Kong as a window to trade with the West then they shall allow people in Hong Kong to live freely. Then what China have chosen is that even if they cannot maintain Hong Kong as a window to trade with the West, they would want to have full control on Hong Kong.


The core of the matter was an agreement with China on mutual extradition of suspects in criminal activities. No country likes to have an area where people who committed crimes can hide, and HK need to understand that. There was no attack on HK jurisdiction or its freedoms anywhere there. What needed to get done - Carrie Lam needed to get sent back to the negotiation table if HK people do not like certain parts of the agreement. But instead they went onto destroying their own city, running around foreign embassies, calling sanctions upon China. Not an example even of a good neighborship.

c933103 wrote:
In view of such situation, what people in Hong Kong want to achieve is to realize the packaged deal and close off this window/loophole for China, to complete the curtain between China and the West so as to weaken P.R.China's strength, such that they ultimately have higher chance to break down and give up control on the city, as P.R.China isn't going to change their mind on Hong Kong so the only thing for people in Hong Kong to get what's demanded is to push P.R.China to become either become nonexistence or become incapable of controlling Hong Kong.


Let's say that this gets achieved, and China does get isolated indeed. What's the place of HK then? And what HKers will be left to do? They will simply migrate to China and other countries where their expertise will be in demand, and they can support themselves - and HK will end up being thrown under the bus by their greatest ally. So what's left - go fishing?
 
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c933103
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:57 am

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Don't forget the political background of Hong Kong. While Hong Kong as a trade and finance intermediary between China and the West have been its most prominent role since 1980s, this role was not the reason why most of its current residents or their ancestors choose to migrate toward Hong Kong. Instead they're mostly trying to escape the turbulent rule in Mainlans China over the past century, especially the rule by the Communist Party of China. However that's the kind of rule that People's Republic of China is now trying to extend into Hong Kong.


What attracts people to a certain location (be it a city, a region, a country) is opportunities to make living, realize themselves as professionals, be in demand. HK does offer a lot of that in the area of global trade. Freedom in itself, without corresponding opportunities, isn't worth a lot.

I would say it is security instead of freedom

c933103 wrote:
What China is trying to do now is to politically convert the city from a Western one with freedom to a Chinese one under their control, while attempting to preserve the city's role as economic intermediary between China and the West. What people in Hong Kong was trying to do is to make it a packaged deal so that If China want to use Hong Kong as a window to trade with the West then they shall allow people in Hong Kong to live freely. Then what China have chosen is that even if they cannot maintain Hong Kong as a window to trade with the West, they would want to have full control on Hong Kong.


The core of the matter was an agreement with China on mutual extradition of suspects in criminal activities. No country likes to have an area where people who committed crimes can hide, and HK need to understand that. There was no attack on HK jurisdiction or its freedoms anywhere there. What needed to get done - Carrie Lam needed to get sent back to the negotiation table if HK people do not like certain parts of the agreement. But instead they went onto destroying their own city, running around foreign embassies, calling sanctions upon China. Not an example even of a good neighborship.

The core of the matter when the main subject was still about extradition agreement was that they're trying to capture political enemies hiding in Hong Kong. No matter how they modify it, as long as the government of Hong Kong is still appointed by China, they would still be able to extradite their desired political enemy back to China and silence opposition. Everything that came afterward until the National Security law now are just them making their intention more and more clear.

c933103 wrote:
In view of such situation, what people in Hong Kong want to achieve is to realize the packaged deal and close off this window/loophole for China, to complete the curtain between China and the West so as to weaken P.R.China's strength, such that they ultimately have higher chance to break down and give up control on the city, as P.R.China isn't going to change their mind on Hong Kong so the only thing for people in Hong Kong to get what's demanded is to push P.R.China to become either become nonexistence or become incapable of controlling Hong Kong.


Let's say that this gets achieved, and China does get isolated indeed. What's the place of HK then? And what HKers will be left to do? They will simply migrate to China and other countries where their expertise will be in demand, and they can support themselves - and HK will end up being thrown under the bus by their greatest ally. So what's left - go fishing?

At this rate, as long as P.R.C. can sustain, Hong Kong will become imprisoned with efforts being placed toward maintaining social function while trying to eliminate any opposition. Things will stagnate and die down while Beijing try to reuse the remain of Hong Kong for whatever role it see as fit. Whatever real opportunity Hong Kong might get would have to depends on and wait after the current political system of P.R.China to collapse and transform into a new structure.

It would be better for Hong Kong to die as a corpse and be burnt to ashes than be reanimated as zombie feeding the one who murdered it. Now the question is, is it really be possible to stop China from using the body of Hong Kong for its own interest? And will the devil finally be shot down so that both Mainland China as well as Hong Kong can ultinately reborn from it, no matter how many decades or centuries is it going to be down the line?
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anrec80
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:42 pm

c933103 wrote:
I would say it is security instead of freedom



This is not about security, but about the ability to provide the most basic needs. When you are going to sleep hungry and are about too be kicked out of your house due to rent non-payment, freedom isn’t what you think about.


c933103 wrote:
The core of the matter when the main subject was still about extradition agreement was that they're trying to capture political enemies hiding in Hong Kong. No matter how they modify it, as long as the government of Hong Kong is still appointed by China, they would still be able to extradite their desired political enemy back to China and silence opposition. Everything that came afterward until the National Security law now are just them making their intention more and more clear.


Then first, you need to understand how you want to distinguish a political case vs a criminal one. And get back at the negotiation table - when in China they were still asking your opinion. Now they apparently no longer are interested in it.

c933103 wrote:
At this rate, as long as P.R.C. can sustain, Hong Kong will become imprisoned with efforts being placed toward maintaining social function while trying to eliminate any opposition. Things will stagnate and die down while Beijing try to reuse the remain of Hong Kong for whatever role it see as fit. Whatever real opportunity Hong Kong might get would have to depends on and wait after the current political system of P.R.China to collapse and transform into a new structure.


So you are waiting for China to collapse? And again, as I said above - what’s in it for HK? No trade - no demand for HK competencies and people. And likely - the real opportunity in the world after China collapse will not be there at all for HK.

c933103 wrote:
It would be better for Hong Kong to die as a corpse and be burnt to ashes than be reanimated as zombie feeding the one who murdered it. Now the question is, is it really be possible to stop China from using the body of Hong Kong for its own interest? And will the devil finally be shot down so that both Mainland China as well as Hong Kong can ultinately reborn from it, no matter how many decades or centuries is it going to be down the line?


I don’t understand the idea of killing your own country. What’s in it for people who are live there now? They will end up going wherever just to survive, and all rights and stuff will take the back seat in this case. And - such “miraculous” rebirths don’t even always happen.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:48 pm

I expect China to move quickly now that The West is drowning in its own massive protests. I am sure Xi and his cabinet are smirking about everything that is happening right now.
 
alfa164
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:56 pm

anrec80 wrote:
The core of the matter was an agreement with China on mutual extradition of suspects in criminal activities. No country likes to have an area where people who committed crimes can hide, and HK need to understand that. There was no attack on HK jurisdiction or its freedoms anywhere there.



That is a lie. "People who have committed crimes" weren't hiding in Hong Kong; Hong Kong has their own laws and statutes regarding criminal activity. Hong Kong's objection was the heavy-handed implementation of the Chinese mainland government's laws, and its determination to overrule the laws of Hong Kong and place its citizens under threat of Chinese intervention; in direct contradiction to the promises China made in 1997. That was a direct attack on Hong Kong's right to pass and execute its own laws, and a violation of its independent jurisdiction of their laws.


c933103 wrote:
The core of the matter when the main subject was still about extradition agreement was that they're trying to capture political enemies hiding in Hong Kong. No matter how they modify it, as long as the government of Hong Kong is still appointed by China, they would still be able to extradite their desired political enemy back to China and silence opposition. Everything that came afterward until the National Security law now are just them making their intention more and more clear.


This. The Chinese government can't stand political opposition; indeed, totalitarian governments in general show a peculiar allergy to anyone who dares disagree with them. Thus we get the likes of Xi, Putin, Kim, and their wannabes (Orban, Maduro, Hun Sen, et al, etc... the list seems to be growing, rather than shrinking). It is a sad commentary to the willingness of some people to accept promises at face value, and give up their freedoms for those promises - which, of course, never materialize..
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anrec80
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:55 pm

alfa164 wrote:
That is a lie. "People who have committed crimes" weren't hiding in Hong Kong; Hong Kong has their own laws and statutes regarding criminal activity. Hong Kong's objection was the heavy-handed implementation of the Chinese mainland government's laws, and its determination to overrule the laws of Hong Kong and place its citizens under threat of Chinese intervention; in direct contradiction to the promises China made in 1997. That was a direct attack on Hong Kong's right to pass and execute its own laws, and a violation of its independent jurisdiction of their laws.


In that case our "democratic activists" send Carrie Lam back to the negotiation table, and, if necessary, delegate their members there as well. And get the wording of the agreement right. But do not go on destroying their own city, start running around foreign embassies, involve 3rd parties, call in for sanction. They should have understood that these things have little chance for success, and should not have expected that China will be just looking at that and doing nothing.
 
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:05 am

anrec80 wrote:
In that case our "democratic activists" send Carrie Lam back to the negotiation table

How, when she refused to negotiate?
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alfa164
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:06 am

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

That is a lie. "People who have committed crimes" weren't hiding in Hong Kong; Hong Kong has their own laws and statutes regarding criminal activity. Hong Kong's objection was the heavy-handed implementation of the Chinese mainland government's laws, and its determination to overrule the laws of Hong Kong and place its citizens under threat of Chinese intervention; in direct contradiction to the promises China made in 1997. That was a direct attack on Hong Kong's right to pass and execute its own laws, and a violation of its independent jurisdiction of their laws.

In that case our "democratic activists" send Carrie Lam back to the negotiation table, and, if necessary, delegate their members there as well. And get the wording of the agreement right. But do not go on destroying their own city, start running around foreign embassies, involve 3rd parties, call in for sanction. They should have understood that these things have little chance for success, and should not have expected that China will be just looking at that and doing nothing.


Nice try, but you know - or, in the proper pursuit of truth, should know - better. Carrie Lamb is a crony of Xi, installed by the Chinese Central Committee. She, along with the central regime, has denied rivals the right to participate in Hong Kong's politics: removing them as candidates, shutting them down in the legislative Council, and even arrenting them when they express disagreement with the Chinese communist party. In theory, Hong Kong;s courts should provide fairness to them; Under the Basic Law, Hong Kong's courts are responsible - "within the limits of [its] autonomy" - for determining whether the government's actions are legal. But the National People's Congress Standing Committee (NPCSC) - China's rubber-stamp parliament - holds the ultimate "power of interpretation" of the law. In July 2002,Chief Executive Tung Chee Hwa decreed that all principal officials, including the Chief Secretary, Financial Secretary, Secretary for Justice and heads of government bureaux would no longer be politically neutral career civil servants, but would all be political appointees chosen by the Chief Executive from within or outside the civil service. All of this adds up to a system that does not listen to reason or debate; the heroes of Hong Kong have no choice but to take their message to the streets.

But you knew all that... it just doesn't fit into the Russian agenda...


:roll:
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alfa164
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:09 am

c933103 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
In that case our "democratic activists" send Carrie Lam back to the negotiation table

How, when she refused to negotiate?


:checkmark: . So true. ... but you can see the St. Petersburg propaganda contingent is back at work now, after shutting down for Covid-19 for a few weeks...


;)
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anrec80
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:41 am

c933103 wrote:
How, when she refused to negotiate?


Did someone even insist that she does that? They just started wrecking havoc and violence, and ran to the US embassy. And now even the US embassy is of zero value, obviously.
Last edited by anrec80 on Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: China ends Hong Kong's autonomy

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:59 pm

Not sure why a number of messages get disappeared...
anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
How, when she refused to negotiate?


Did someone even insist that she does that? They just started wrecking havoc and violence, and ran to the US embassy. And now even the US embassy is of zero value, obviously.

It was she insisting the law must be passed, until people breaking the legco making it physically cannot be passed that it's suspended and then withdrawn. Negotiations cannot happen when one side have been determined to want something that the other side have been determined to reject.
And truly reflecting her altitude, on a televised session of dialogue which she answer enquiry from various citizens after the law was being withdrawn, her answers are all trying to defend her actions instead of trying to figure out concessions.
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