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flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:27 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

I don't think lock down can be implemented. People simply will point at the protests and ignore what politicians say. And if you want to enforce it by using the police,...good luck to that. People will get even more mad than they already are. So, no. The "lock down ship" has sailed.

:checkmark:

The expert class has really lost their credibility on this...COVID is so dangerous we had to sic the police on a large funeral gathering, but then large-scale demonstration gatherings were not just ignored but cheered on by them (and I say this as someone who agrees with the protests). The amount of doublespeak was astounding.


I think you are watching to much right wing television. Expert class ?
Please define.

Nope, I'm talking about the hundreds of doctors/epidemiologists/virologists who did a total about-face on COVID and penned a letter practically encouraging people to gather and protest despite COVID:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/h ... index.html

...as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States.


Again, I agree with the protests...but don't be surprised when people ignore the public health advocates' calls the next time they start banging their fists about serious lockdown measures with this kind of doublespeak. Credibility has been lost.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:34 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
:checkmark:

The expert class has really lost their credibility on this...COVID is so dangerous we had to sic the police on a large funeral gathering, but then large-scale demonstration gatherings were not just ignored but cheered on by them (and I say this as someone who agrees with the protests). The amount of doublespeak was astounding.


I think you are watching to much right wing television. Expert class ?
Please define.

Nope, I'm talking about the hundreds of doctors/epidemiologists/virologists who did a total about-face on COVID and penned a letter practically encouraging people to gather and protest despite COVID:


...as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States.


Again, I agree with the protests...but don't be surprised when people ignore the public health advocates' calls the next time they start banging their fists about serious lockdown measures with this kind of doublespeak. Credibility has been lost.



Is it only because the whole letter was longer than 288 characters that you don't quote their statements about social distancing guidelines?

The letter focuses on health guidance for protestors and law enforcement, such as wearing masks, advocating to not hold people who are arrested in close proximity and opposing the use of tear gas for health reasons.
"Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy," the letter says.


There is no double speak here.

The folks that want to open up and go back to work are going to cause a spike. Trump and his rallies. Nascar and their fans.
We need to know that healthcare is ready to take on the added pressure these openings will cause.

The statistics all say people with underlying conditions and older are most at risk. Hopefully those folks will continue to social distance, but their relatives and friends may be their undoing.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:48 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

I think you are watching to much right wing television. Expert class ?
Please define.

Nope, I'm talking about the hundreds of doctors/epidemiologists/virologists who did a total about-face on COVID and penned a letter practically encouraging people to gather and protest despite COVID:


...as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States.


Again, I agree with the protests...but don't be surprised when people ignore the public health advocates' calls the next time they start banging their fists about serious lockdown measures with this kind of doublespeak. Credibility has been lost.



Is it only because the whole letter was longer than 288 characters that you don't quote their statements about social distancing guidelines?

The letter focuses on health guidance for protestors and law enforcement, such as wearing masks, advocating to not hold people who are arrested in close proximity and opposing the use of tear gas for health reasons.
"Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy," the letter says.


There is no double speak here.

Please. We went from "Trump is committing literal genocide by not implementing a national lockdown" to "we support massive public gatherings laden with the COVID transmission risks we've been starkly warning about for months." The remainder of the letter is irrelevant. Most state reopenings have similar health and social distancing guidelines attached to them. The meat of it all is the complete 180 they did in the face of the protests.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:54 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Nope, I'm talking about the hundreds of doctors/epidemiologists/virologists who did a total about-face on COVID and penned a letter practically encouraging people to gather and protest despite COVID:




Again, I agree with the protests...but don't be surprised when people ignore the public health advocates' calls the next time they start banging their fists about serious lockdown measures with this kind of doublespeak. Credibility has been lost.



Is it only because the whole letter was longer than 288 characters that you don't quote their statements about social distancing guidelines?

The letter focuses on health guidance for protestors and law enforcement, such as wearing masks, advocating to not hold people who are arrested in close proximity and opposing the use of tear gas for health reasons.
"Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy," the letter says.


There is no double speak here.

Please. We went from "Trump is committing literal genocide by not implementing a national lockdown" to "we support massive public gatherings laden with the COVID transmission risks we've been starkly warning about for months." The remainder of the letter is irrelevant. Most state reopenings have similar health and social distancing guidelines attached to them. The meat of it all is the complete 180 they did in the face of the protests.

What was 180 about it? The protests were outside. They promoted social distancing.

Just because a bunch of C level high school educated folks don't get the idea about how virus's travel and cause illness , doesn't mean that the doctor's didn't recognize the larger social issue occurring.
There was no 180.

There is a difference between walking and protesting vs sitting in an enclosed space with hundreds or thousands of other folks.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:25 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Is it only because the whole letter was longer than 288 characters that you don't quote their statements about social distancing guidelines?



There is no double speak here.

Please. We went from "Trump is committing literal genocide by not implementing a national lockdown" to "we support massive public gatherings laden with the COVID transmission risks we've been starkly warning about for months." The remainder of the letter is irrelevant. Most state reopenings have similar health and social distancing guidelines attached to them. The meat of it all is the complete 180 they did in the face of the protests.

What was 180 about it? The protests were outside. They promoted social distancing.

Just because a bunch of C level high school educated folks don't get the idea about how virus's travel and cause illness , doesn't mean that the doctor's didn't recognize the larger social issue occurring.
There was no 180.

There is a difference between walking and protesting vs sitting in an enclosed space with hundreds or thousands of other folks.

So were a lot of re-open protests. Sure, the nobility of one versus the other is unquestionable, but the infection risks were exactly the same. Densely crowded outdoor gatherings were continually discouraged until these particular protests...that included funerals, any type protests that happened before, all the beach-shaming, etc. Everyone saw the images from the major George Floyd demonstrations showing conditions rife for virus transmission: limited mask-wearing, no spacing, large crowds, and then to see healthcare professionals swing around support that behavior? Again, lost credibility.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:30 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Please. We went from "Trump is committing literal genocide by not implementing a national lockdown" to "we support massive public gatherings laden with the COVID transmission risks we've been starkly warning about for months." The remainder of the letter is irrelevant. Most state reopenings have similar health and social distancing guidelines attached to them. The meat of it all is the complete 180 they did in the face of the protests.

What was 180 about it? The protests were outside. They promoted social distancing.

Just because a bunch of C level high school educated folks don't get the idea about how virus's travel and cause illness , doesn't mean that the doctor's didn't recognize the larger social issue occurring.
There was no 180.

There is a difference between walking and protesting vs sitting in an enclosed space with hundreds or thousands of other folks.

So were a lot of re-open protests. Sure, the nobility of one versus the other is unquestionable, but the infection risks were exactly the same. Densely crowded outdoor gatherings were continually discouraged until these particular protests...that included funerals, any type protests that happened before, all the beach-shaming, etc. Everyone saw the images from the major George Floyd demonstrations showing conditions rife for virus transmission: limited mask-wearing, no spacing, large crowds, and then to see healthcare professionals swing around support that behavior? Again, lost credibility.


So how did the doctors do a 180? you are trying to bridge social reactions with doctor's reactions.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:41 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
What was 180 about it? The protests were outside. They promoted social distancing.

Just because a bunch of C level high school educated folks don't get the idea about how virus's travel and cause illness , doesn't mean that the doctor's didn't recognize the larger social issue occurring.
There was no 180.

There is a difference between walking and protesting vs sitting in an enclosed space with hundreds or thousands of other folks.

So were a lot of re-open protests. Sure, the nobility of one versus the other is unquestionable, but the infection risks were exactly the same. Densely crowded outdoor gatherings were continually discouraged until these particular protests...that included funerals, any type protests that happened before, all the beach-shaming, etc. Everyone saw the images from the major George Floyd demonstrations showing conditions rife for virus transmission: limited mask-wearing, no spacing, large crowds, and then to see healthcare professionals swing around support that behavior? Again, lost credibility.


So how did the doctors do a 180? you are trying to bridge social reactions with doctor's reactions.

We went from any type of large gatherings, including outdoors, needing to be restricted and being critically dangerous to spread of COVID to "we support these demonstrations even with the risk of COVID, just please try and wear a mask." So what changed exactly with the virus that suddenly made COVID less dangerous?
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:47 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
So were a lot of re-open protests. Sure, the nobility of one versus the other is unquestionable, but the infection risks were exactly the same. Densely crowded outdoor gatherings were continually discouraged until these particular protests...that included funerals, any type protests that happened before, all the beach-shaming, etc. Everyone saw the images from the major George Floyd demonstrations showing conditions rife for virus transmission: limited mask-wearing, no spacing, large crowds, and then to see healthcare professionals swing around support that behavior? Again, lost credibility.


So how did the doctors do a 180? you are trying to bridge social reactions with doctor's reactions.

We went from any type of large gatherings, including outdoors, needing to be restricted and being critically dangerous to spread of COVID to "we support these demonstrations even with the risk of COVID, just please try and wear a mask." So what changed exactly with the virus that suddenly made COVID less dangerous?


Nothing. The doctors were just supporting the protest, which would have gone on with or without the endorsement, and trying to remind everyone that COVID is still a problem, despite the current GOP lies.
They didn't support the Reopen protests as those were led by folks with more concern for money than people.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:02 pm

Political rallies, if held, really should be outdoors as the demonstrations were outdooor. It is not impossible to contract the virus outdoors but the data is coming in it makes a big difference. You may have heard about the liability waiver the Trump Campaign is requiring his attendees to sign. It seems to acknowledge the difference too.
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Jalap
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:19 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Either way, 4% or 5%, seems high to me compared to the average mortality rate of 0.3%. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... eath-rate/

It states that 0,3% of the entire New York population died. Not only infected population.
One paragraph higher: infection mortality rate estimated at 1,4%.
Which is in line with other places/countries with comparable demographics.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:50 am

Very Troubling statistics for June 16.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... -yesterday

Brazil, India, Mexico and the US led one of the highest death totals since mid April.
1300+ in India were due to a reconciliation of data, but it shows that COVID-19 is still spreading.

In the US Texas added an extra 1800 cases to it's total from uncounted inmates.
Miami will not move to Phase 2 in it's reopening plan due to the spike in cases.

Mike Pence is still trying to convince everyone we have moved past COVID-19 and Dr. Faucci has not spoken to Trump in over 2 weeks.
https://www.businessinsider.com/mike-pe ... ped-2020-6

The 2nd wave is already here, and the statistics will continue to pile up.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN23N32O
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:07 am

How's that sunbelt looking for you American COVID deniers?
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:10 am

Look at the curve for Italy, Spain, France, and the US. The US should be completely walled off. If the US will not do what needs to be done to control this epidemic, no country should allow travelers in from the USA. None.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
tommy1808
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:42 am

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
So were a lot of re-open protests. Sure, the nobility of one versus the other is unquestionable, but the infection risks were exactly the same. Densely crowded outdoor gatherings were continually discouraged until these particular protests...that included funerals, any type protests that happened before, all the beach-shaming, etc. Everyone saw the images from the major George Floyd demonstrations showing conditions rife for virus transmission: limited mask-wearing, no spacing, large crowds, and then to see healthcare professionals swing around support that behavior? Again, lost credibility.


So how did the doctors do a 180? you are trying to bridge social reactions with doctor's reactions.

We went from any type of large gatherings, including outdoors, needing to be restricted and being critically dangerous to spread of COVID to "we support these demonstrations even with the risk of COVID, just please try and wear a mask." So what changed exactly with the virus that suddenly made COVID less dangerous?


There are also weeks between both types of events. Weeks in which we learned more about how and when the virus spreads best, or not.
I also didn´t see protesters making a point out of not wearing masks and playing sardine. In fact, if you look at live footage its easy to see how people did distance most of the time and mask wearing was close to universal. In places where the crowd to tight together was in tight places (=short time) or when law enforcement compressed crowds.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:38 am

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

So how did the doctors do a 180? you are trying to bridge social reactions with doctor's reactions.

We went from any type of large gatherings, including outdoors, needing to be restricted and being critically dangerous to spread of COVID to "we support these demonstrations even with the risk of COVID, just please try and wear a mask." So what changed exactly with the virus that suddenly made COVID less dangerous?


Nothing. The doctors were just supporting the protest, which would have gone on with or without the endorsement, and trying to remind everyone that COVID is still a problem, despite the current GOP lies.
They didn't support the Reopen protests as those were led by folks with more concern for money than people.

Bull. They're smart enough to know that by publicly penning a letter essentially giving their public health blessing that they were only going to increase crowds with a false sense of assurance ("if the experts approve, it must be ok"). If these behaviors were to be restricted and admonished prior to George Floyd based on the science, then the same was still true after. But instead you have people now being instructed that gatherings of 10 or more are prohibited...unless it's for a demonstration. The political jerking around has completely undermined their message.

tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

So how did the doctors do a 180? you are trying to bridge social reactions with doctor's reactions.

We went from any type of large gatherings, including outdoors, needing to be restricted and being critically dangerous to spread of COVID to "we support these demonstrations even with the risk of COVID, just please try and wear a mask." So what changed exactly with the virus that suddenly made COVID less dangerous?


There are also weeks between both types of events. Weeks in which we learned more about how and when the virus spreads best, or not.
I also didn´t see protesters making a point out of not wearing masks and playing sardine. In fact, if you look at live footage its easy to see how people did distance most of the time and mask wearing was close to universal. In places where the crowd to tight together was in tight places (=short time) or when law enforcement compressed crowds.

best regards
Thomas

It was known months ago that the risk of transmission outdoors in open air was substantially less risky, yet paddle boarders on the open ocean were arrested and tame photos of people on uncrowded beaches were decried as callous and practical murderers and drive-in church services cracked down on under threat of fines. There were also plenty of photos of BLM protests with minimal mask wearing and no distancing...by the same token there were re-open demonstrations with distancing and mask wearing that were glossed over for the idiot-minded bunch that made better outrage fodder. I'm totally on board with the BLM demonstrations, but let's not act like this flip-flopping doesn't water down the dangers they've been warning about. If people want to protest police brutality and racism, they should, and do so with proper precautions...and if people also want to protest their livelihoods being ruined, they should, and also do so with the same precautions.
 
tommy1808
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:04 am

flyguy89 wrote:
It was known months ago that the risk of transmission outdoors in open air was substantially less risky, .


We know that for about one (!) month, before it was merely suggested. We also learned that exposure time is critical for the infection risk and on a beach you are pretty much by definition in the vicinity of the same people for a long time, during a larger march you are unlikely to be next to the same people for any stretch of time. People on the beach also pretty much never wear a mask, same with the people on anti lock down protests.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
olle
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:24 am

In the latest test shows that 14% of people living in stockholm region has anti bodies against Covid.

https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/var-s ... tikroppar/

Every seventh person in Stockholm who has been tested has developed antibodies which can give immunity to covid-19. It shows the results of one of the largest mass tests that have been done and will be presented on Wednesday.

The tests have been conducted between week 18 and week 24 - until June 14 - and include people who are 18 years or older and show whether the person had a covid-19 infection and then developed antibodies. Those who have taken the test were asked to be free of symptoms for the last 14 days before taking it and it is a mixture of people who had symptoms and those who did not notice that they were sick.

- A large group did not have any symptoms but still tested themselves. We have also tested 14,000 people at various companies where there were both infected and healthy. The result is a description of what we have found among the 50,000 people we have sampled, says Henrik Forsberg, CEO of Werlabs, which is responsible for testing.

Tegnell: Everything speaks to being immune

The analyzes show that 14 percent, or one in seven people, of those sampled in Stockholm have developed antibodies. The Public Health Authority has previously said that it was hoped that the level would be 20 percent as early as May, given the spread of viruses.

In Gothenburg, the figure is 11.5 percent and in Malmö 5 percent.

According to state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell, this means that the figures reflect the situation about a month ago:

- It takes a couple of weeks to develop antibodies from getting sick so the figure is actually much higher today. We are working on this and given that we have a doubling time of the number of cases in about ten days, it should be a little over 20 percent. But we have to count on that well, says Tegnell.

According to Anders Tegnell, 14 percent is also a fairly high figure compared to other countries in the world where measurements have been made. In Norway and Finland, the figure is between one and two percent.

- Most other countries are on single-digit numbers. It is pretty good that Sweden has come further in the pandemic. London is also at this level and the British epidemic is quite similar to ours.

Looking at the whole of Sweden, the figures show that more people in the group 18–29 years than those who are older have developed antibodies. There, 14 per cent have been found to have antibodies, while others from 30 years and up are between 9 and 12 per cent.

- The difference may depend on who has chosen to take the test, it is not a scientific selection, says Werlab's CEO Henrik Forsberg.

36,000 of the samples were taken by venous blood samples and 14,000 by capillary blood samples. None of the tests have been quick tests. All samples were taken by trained nurses.

On May 20, the Public Health Authority published the first results of how much of the population in Stockholm carries antibodies. It showed a low 7.3 percent. In Skåne and Västra Götaland, the figures were even lower, 4.2 and 3.7 percent respectively. So these numbers appear to be increasing.

In a week, Werlabs estimates that an additional 20,000 samples have been analyzed.

- 50,000 tested provides a good statistical basis for the whole group and the figures are quite in line with how we see that the incidence has been and they feel reasonable even compared to other studies, says Karin Tegmark Wisell, Head of the Public Health Authority.

- Our figures also differ between Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö. The number of iva-cared for is the most stable figure, and Stockholm has the highest and Gothenburg has more than Malmö. The differences that can be seen when it comes to age groups and workplaces can depend, among other things, on the contacts you have in your work, as they are transmitted through contact infections primarily.

However, Karin Tegmark Wisell warns to draw some big conclusions regarding the exact figures for the three big cities. The number of people who took the test differs too much.

37,000 of those who took Werlab's test did so in Stockholm, 10,000 in Gothenburg and 1,500 in Malmö.

- Based on the number of tests carried out in the different regions, the statistical certainty in the specified percentages is higher for Stockholm, than for Gothenburg and lowest for Malmö.

Karin Tegmark Wisell says that it is obvious that you need to look more at specific groups to get an even better idea of ​​what the infection looks like in society. This is because the infection is spread in clusters by an infectious person in his social life, in the common household or in a workplace.

"We see this kind of cluster infection more and more," she says.

On Thursday, the Public Health Agency also comes up with new figures on how many Swedes carry antibodies. The Authority's study is considerably smaller than that conducted by Werlabs, but also contains children.

The results so far show that 6.1 percent of those tested in outpatient care for a disease other than covid-19 on May 15 had antibodies after undergoing covid-19. But that figure is likely to change when the new results are presented on Thursday.

During the period from April 20 to May 31, the Public Health Authority collected 1,600 samples from blood donor centers and then another almost as many from outpatient care.

- A group that is normally representative of the population, but probably not this spring, according to Karin Tegmark Wisell.

Children up to the age of 19 are the group where the largest proportion, 7.5 percent, has antibodies according to figures from the Public Health Authority. According to Karin Tegmark Wisell, the group consists mainly of healthy young people who do allergy investigations and thus give a better reflection of the population.

A smaller study that has targeted Stockholm, Skåne and Umeå shows the same tendency. Of 1,071 tested, 10.1 per cent were found to have recently undergone infection or have an ongoing infection, in some cases without developing immunity.

- We will continue to take samples on those who want to, says Henrik Kangro, medical director at Min Doktor who performed the tests.
 
olle
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:34 am

If mr Tegell is correct and we can expect that having antibodies meaning that you are being immune we can also expect that the second wave of corona after the summer to be opposite with smaller outbreak in Stockholm and bigger in Malmö.

Malmö also have big risk in the fact that Copenhagen just 30 min away has bigger outbreak and many danish people go to Sweden over the summer.
 
olle
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:38 am

Danish tourists after being in more strict restrictions then swedes do not respect Swedish restrictions when visiting sweden during the summer. Will this mean that Swedish areas until now not much effected will get outbreak after the summer?

https://www.berlingske.dk/international ... -opfoersel

Swedish minister criticizes Danish tourists' behavior
There have been "many emails" about Danish tourists not complying with corona rules, says the Swedish minister.

Sweden's Foreign Minister, Ann Linde, longs for Danish tourists' actions in relation to corona guidelines in Sweden.

She does so in an interview with Dagens Nyheter, which was published on Sunday.

Here she is asked what she thinks about Sweden allowing tourists from other Nordic countries to go there on holiday, while Swedes cannot travel the other way to go on vacation.

'We don't like it, of course. But if they are to come here, it requires them to follow the rules. We get a lot of emails about people coming from Denmark who do not respect social distance and move tables together at restaurants and everything possible, ”she says.

However, she stresses that Danish tourists are welcome as long as they follow the guidelines.

To TV2 in Denmark, the Swedish Foreign Ministry's press service states that the statements are based on information received by the Swedish government.

In an email, the press service points out that Ann Linde does not say that Danes breach the guidelines to a greater extent than Swedes.

In the interview with Dagens Nyheter, the Minister also voiced a broader concern that the corona crisis and the continued isolation of Sweden could damage the relationship between the Nordic countries.

"I'm really upset about that," she says.

She says that the Swedish government has tried to enter into regional agreements with neighboring countries, but without success.

At the same time, she acknowledges that Sweden has been hit harder.

“The fact is that they have a much milder outbreak than what we have had. We have explained to them that we have had a very regional development. "

“In border areas it doesn't look like Stockholm at all. You can see that in Copenhagen there are significantly more dead and infected than in Skåne, ”she says.

From Monday, tourists from the first countries could access Denmark. Initially, tourists from Germany, Norway and Iceland were opened, which, like Denmark, have a low number of infected and hospitalized.

But other more low-infection countries may be on their way, Mette Frederiksen (S) said Tuesday in connection with the Prime Minister's Question Time.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:39 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
We went from any type of large gatherings, including outdoors, needing to be restricted and being critically dangerous to spread of COVID to "we support these demonstrations even with the risk of COVID, just please try and wear a mask." So what changed exactly with the virus that suddenly made COVID less dangerous?


Nothing. The doctors were just supporting the protest, which would have gone on with or without the endorsement, and trying to remind everyone that COVID is still a problem, despite the current GOP lies.
They didn't support the Reopen protests as those were led by folks with more concern for money than people.

Bull. They're smart enough to know that by publicly penning a letter essentially giving their public health blessing that they were only going to increase crowds with a false sense of assurance ("if the experts approve, it must be ok"). If these behaviors were to be restricted and admonished prior to George Floyd based on the science, then the same was still true after. But instead you have people now being instructed that gatherings of 10 or more are prohibited...unless it's for a demonstration. The political jerking around has completely undermined their message.
.

Gatherings of more than 10 are allowed all over the US in various pockets. These doctors were providing a necessary service to people that were protesting anyhow. This had nothing to do with politcal jerking around. That is only for politicians and folks that are dumb enough to watch nightly political shows and listen to daytime political radio. ,
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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zkojq
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I don't deny the difficulties urban centers in developing world face, but India picked the Bollywood option i.e., just pure drama including so-called lock down. Close to 130 Million migrant workers were walking along surface roads and railroad tracks for 60 days without food or sanitation. How would that help. Didn't do one good thing which would help stop community transmission.


Yeah that sounds like a mess.

santi319 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
zkojq wrote:

:redflag: :redflag:
Nope, that's a myth and, let's be honest, it's concern trolling.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12333030

We are not staying at home for 6 effing months. It isn’t going happen. Period.


I wouldn’t pay mind at a news article from New Zealand. They were barely on lockdown for a couple of months.

I stand by what I say, being lockdown for an extensive period of time takes a toll on your health. Its a fact.


All the more reason to do it once and get it right. :roll:

StarAC17 wrote:
So while Covid19 might be bad for the developing world there are some saving graces for developing countries to be spared the worst of it. Here are a few.

- Younger population, average age is 18 in Africa. This disease hits the elderly and in a lot of places the average age of death from Covid19 is actually older than the average lifespan
- Less overweight population.
- Even if you are in slums you are outside most of the time. I have walked through the Kibera slum in Nairobi and everyone is outside and can easily distance and outdoor transmission is low.
- Probably not vitamin D deficient.


+ poor infrastructure makes rural areas more remote which should reduce the spread in those parts.

anrec80 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
So while Covid19 might be bad for the developing world there are some saving graces for developing countries to be spared the worst of it. Here are a few.

- Younger population, average age is 18 in Africa. This disease hits the elderly and in a lot of places the average age of death from Covid19 is actually older than the average lifespan
- Less overweight population.
- Even if you are in slums you are outside most of the time. I have walked through the Kibera slum in Nairobi and everyone is outside and can easily distance and outdoor transmission is low.
- Probably not vitamin D deficient.


There are really many variables in the transmission. In Belarus, for example, they did not do anything at all - no shutdowns, no quarantine measures, and I don't even think social distancing recommendations. And turned out to be not too much of a deal.


You trust the Belarus government to produce honest numbers?

Jalap wrote:
Is it really so hard to understand that the world would have looked entirely different without those measures?
Do you really need to crash first to understand the importance of crash prevention?


:checkmark:

Jalap wrote:
Elderly and ill people deserve to die, it's only natural...


It's kindof amazing how many people expressing that sentiment are supposedly "pro-life".

Aesma wrote:
anrec80 : does Belarus have tourism ?


Enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UAkHQFcgA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XzxmSRwdPg
First to fly the 787-9
 
N757ST
Posts: 977
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:00 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Is it only because the whole letter was longer than 288 characters that you don't quote their statements about social distancing guidelines?



There is no double speak here.

Please. We went from "Trump is committing literal genocide by not implementing a national lockdown" to "we support massive public gatherings laden with the COVID transmission risks we've been starkly warning about for months." The remainder of the letter is irrelevant. Most state reopenings have similar health and social distancing guidelines attached to them. The meat of it all is the complete 180 they did in the face of the protests.

What was 180 about it? The protests were outside. They promoted social distancing.

Just because a bunch of C level high school educated folks don't get the idea about how virus's travel and cause illness , doesn't mean that the doctor's didn't recognize the larger social issue occurring.
There was no 180.

There is a difference between walking and protesting vs sitting in an enclosed space with hundreds or thousands of other folks.


Governor Whitmer on the reopening movement:

They are congregating, they are not wearing masks,” Whitmer stated on The View. “They are not staying six feet apart. And then they go back home into communities and the risk the perpetuating the spread of COVID-19 is real. We’ve seen it happen. And that’s why, I respect people’s right to dissent, they need to do it in a way that is responsible and does not put others at risk.”

Whitmer added: “Anyone who is contributing to people not observing best practices and endangering others is undermining all that work … and run the very real risk of a second wave.”


Governor Whitmer on George Floyd protests:

“To the overwhelming majority of people that have taken to the street, and protested peacefully... I hear you, I see you, support you, and I support your efforts to make real structural change in America.”

Are the two causes equivalent? No. Is there a LOT of hypocrisy there? Yes.

Solution in my mind: anyone attending a protest must by law quarantine for 14 days after participating in any protest.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:07 pm

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Please. We went from "Trump is committing literal genocide by not implementing a national lockdown" to "we support massive public gatherings laden with the COVID transmission risks we've been starkly warning about for months." The remainder of the letter is irrelevant. Most state reopenings have similar health and social distancing guidelines attached to them. The meat of it all is the complete 180 they did in the face of the protests.

What was 180 about it? The protests were outside. They promoted social distancing.

Just because a bunch of C level high school educated folks don't get the idea about how virus's travel and cause illness , doesn't mean that the doctor's didn't recognize the larger social issue occurring.
There was no 180.

There is a difference between walking and protesting vs sitting in an enclosed space with hundreds or thousands of other folks.


Governor Whitmer on the reopening movement:

They are congregating, they are not wearing masks,” Whitmer stated on The View. “They are not staying six feet apart. And then they go back home into communities and the risk the perpetuating the spread of COVID-19 is real. We’ve seen it happen. And that’s why, I respect people’s right to dissent, they need to do it in a way that is responsible and does not put others at risk.”

Whitmer added: “Anyone who is contributing to people not observing best practices and endangering others is undermining all that work … and run the very real risk of a second wave.”


Governor Whitmer on George Floyd protests:

“To the overwhelming majority of people that have taken to the street, and protested peacefully... I hear you, I see you, support you, and I support your efforts to make real structural change in America.”

Are the two causes equivalent? No. Is there a LOT of hypocrisy there? Yes.

Solution in my mind: anyone attending a protest must by law quarantine for 14 days after participating in any protest.



Not a lot of hypocrisy. The first movement was for people against social distancing and flaunting it.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... ality.html
On Friday, June 5, Whitmer was asked about the march and if health officials have concerns that the recent protests will lead to an increase in the state’s cases of coronavirus.

She noted that participants “couldn’t always observe 6 feet” of separation given the spacing of the march. But she said "we wore masks the whole time, we had ample use of hand sanitizer, we never shook hands, we didn’t high-five or hug the way that we usually would greet one another.

“I felt it was an important moment to show my support and show a unified leadership out of the executive office of the governor and so the lieutenant governor and I joined," Whitmer said.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N757ST
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:23 pm

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
What was 180 about it? The protests were outside. They promoted social distancing.

Just because a bunch of C level high school educated folks don't get the idea about how virus's travel and cause illness , doesn't mean that the doctor's didn't recognize the larger social issue occurring.
There was no 180.

There is a difference between walking and protesting vs sitting in an enclosed space with hundreds or thousands of other folks.


Governor Whitmer on the reopening movement:

They are congregating, they are not wearing masks,” Whitmer stated on The View. “They are not staying six feet apart. And then they go back home into communities and the risk the perpetuating the spread of COVID-19 is real. We’ve seen it happen. And that’s why, I respect people’s right to dissent, they need to do it in a way that is responsible and does not put others at risk.”

Whitmer added: “Anyone who is contributing to people not observing best practices and endangering others is undermining all that work … and run the very real risk of a second wave.”


Governor Whitmer on George Floyd protests:

“To the overwhelming majority of people that have taken to the street, and protested peacefully... I hear you, I see you, support you, and I support your efforts to make real structural change in America.”

Are the two causes equivalent? No. Is there a LOT of hypocrisy there? Yes.

Solution in my mind: anyone attending a protest must by law quarantine for 14 days after participating in any protest.



Not a lot of hypocrisy. The first movement was for people against social distancing and flaunting it.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... ality.html
On Friday, June 5, Whitmer was asked about the march and if health officials have concerns that the recent protests will lead to an increase in the state’s cases of coronavirus.

She noted that participants “couldn’t always observe 6 feet” of separation given the spacing of the march. But she said "we wore masks the whole time, we had ample use of hand sanitizer, we never shook hands, we didn’t high-five or hug the way that we usually would greet one another.

“I felt it was an important moment to show my support and show a unified leadership out of the executive office of the governor and so the lieutenant governor and I joined," Whitmer said.


You must be looking at different matches then I am, because I’ve seen many and I have seen very very little distancing and only moderate mask wearing. George Floyd’s memorial had 100,000 people at it, but due to Covid nearly 100,000 people in this country haven’t had a funeral of their own. That’s hypocritical.

I’m not taking away from the fact that I believe George Floyd was murdered by a police officer. I’m say supporting these marches and protests when there is a global pandemic, while restricting gatherings of over 10 people, restricting funerals etc is hypocritical.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:30 pm

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:

Governor Whitmer on the reopening movement:

They are congregating, they are not wearing masks,” Whitmer stated on The View. “They are not staying six feet apart. And then they go back home into communities and the risk the perpetuating the spread of COVID-19 is real. We’ve seen it happen. And that’s why, I respect people’s right to dissent, they need to do it in a way that is responsible and does not put others at risk.”

Whitmer added: “Anyone who is contributing to people not observing best practices and endangering others is undermining all that work … and run the very real risk of a second wave.”


Governor Whitmer on George Floyd protests:

“To the overwhelming majority of people that have taken to the street, and protested peacefully... I hear you, I see you, support you, and I support your efforts to make real structural change in America.”

Are the two causes equivalent? No. Is there a LOT of hypocrisy there? Yes.

Solution in my mind: anyone attending a protest must by law quarantine for 14 days after participating in any protest.



Not a lot of hypocrisy. The first movement was for people against social distancing and flaunting it.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... ality.html
On Friday, June 5, Whitmer was asked about the march and if health officials have concerns that the recent protests will lead to an increase in the state’s cases of coronavirus.

She noted that participants “couldn’t always observe 6 feet” of separation given the spacing of the march. But she said "we wore masks the whole time, we had ample use of hand sanitizer, we never shook hands, we didn’t high-five or hug the way that we usually would greet one another.

“I felt it was an important moment to show my support and show a unified leadership out of the executive office of the governor and so the lieutenant governor and I joined," Whitmer said.


You must be looking at different matches then I am, because I’ve seen many and I have seen very very little distancing and only moderate mask wearing. George Floyd’s memorial had 100,000 people at it, but due to Covid nearly 100,000 people in this country haven’t had a funeral of their own. That’s hypocritical.


I’m not taking away from the fact that I believe George Floyd was murdered by a police officer. I’m say supporting these marches and protests when there is a global pandemic, while restricting gatherings of over 10 people, restricting funerals etc is hypocritical.



It isn't hypocritical. It is life saving. You ever been to a Catholic Mass, or sat in a Movie Theatre or a Bar for a few hours? Ever been to a nightclub?

At the end of the day people's lives are at risk, and that is why social distancing must be enforced. Please note, no one stopped people from attending. It was advised that they didn't, and if they did, that they practice social distancing.

Please read the below for more information on how fast the virus can spread, especially indoors.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/flori ... story.html
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N757ST
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:36 pm

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Not a lot of hypocrisy. The first movement was for people against social distancing and flaunting it.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... ality.html


You must be looking at different matches then I am, because I’ve seen many and I have seen very very little distancing and only moderate mask wearing. George Floyd’s memorial had 100,000 people at it, but due to Covid nearly 100,000 people in this country haven’t had a funeral of their own. That’s hypocritical.


I’m not taking away from the fact that I believe George Floyd was murdered by a police officer. I’m say supporting these marches and protests when there is a global pandemic, while restricting gatherings of over 10 people, restricting funerals etc is hypocritical.



It isn't hypocritical. It is life saving. You ever been to a Catholic Mass, or sat in a Movie Theatre or a Bar for a few hours? Ever been to a nightclub?

At the end of the day people's lives are at risk, and that is why social distancing must be enforced. Please note, no one stopped people from attending. It was advised that they didn't, and if they did, that they practice social distancing.

Please read the below for more information on how fast the virus can spread, especially indoors.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/flori ... story.html


And again, how many people are socially distanced being mobbed together at a protest?
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:45 pm

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:

You must be looking at different matches then I am, because I’ve seen many and I have seen very very little distancing and only moderate mask wearing. George Floyd’s memorial had 100,000 people at it, but due to Covid nearly 100,000 people in this country haven’t had a funeral of their own. That’s hypocritical.


I’m not taking away from the fact that I believe George Floyd was murdered by a police officer. I’m say supporting these marches and protests when there is a global pandemic, while restricting gatherings of over 10 people, restricting funerals etc is hypocritical.



It isn't hypocritical. It is life saving. You ever been to a Catholic Mass, or sat in a Movie Theatre or a Bar for a few hours? Ever been to a nightclub?

At the end of the day people's lives are at risk, and that is why social distancing must be enforced. Please note, no one stopped people from attending. It was advised that they didn't, and if they did, that they practice social distancing.

Please read the below for more information on how fast the virus can spread, especially indoors.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/flori ... story.html


And again, how many people are socially distanced being mobbed together at a protest?


It depends, Are they standing next to the same person? Is the wind blowing, are they marching or standing? Are they wearing a mask?
Some people are distancing and staying back from the fray, some are not. Either way, the "experts" were not wrong to advise people to socially distance while still supporting protests.
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flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:33 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
It was known months ago that the risk of transmission outdoors in open air was substantially less risky, .


We know that for about one (!) month, before it was merely suggested. We also learned that exposure time is critical for the infection risk and on a beach you are pretty much by definition in the vicinity of the same people for a long time, during a larger march you are unlikely to be next to the same people for any stretch of time. People on the beach also pretty much never wear a mask, same with the people on anti lock down protests.

best regards
Thomas

Oh please. We also know that viral load matters when it comes to infection, and breezy/blustery beach conditions dilute the virus even when you're in the vicinity of the same people for longer periods of time. By contrast, at a crowded demonstration the number of people you're coming into direct contact with is much higher, and the higher density means that even while the people directly around you may change, you're going to be in the vicinity of the same people for an extended period of time.

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Nothing. The doctors were just supporting the protest, which would have gone on with or without the endorsement, and trying to remind everyone that COVID is still a problem, despite the current GOP lies.
They didn't support the Reopen protests as those were led by folks with more concern for money than people.

Bull. They're smart enough to know that by publicly penning a letter essentially giving their public health blessing that they were only going to increase crowds with a false sense of assurance ("if the experts approve, it must be ok"). If these behaviors were to be restricted and admonished prior to George Floyd based on the science, then the same was still true after. But instead you have people now being instructed that gatherings of 10 or more are prohibited...unless it's for a demonstration. The political jerking around has completely undermined their message.
.

Gatherings of more than 10 are allowed all over the US in various pockets.

...but still capped at significantly lower numbers than those afforded for demonstrations. Completely conflicting guidance.

casinterest wrote:
These doctors were providing a necessary service to people that were protesting anyhow.

And what service was that exactly? Encouraging denser crowds? :rotfl: The mitigation advice they offered was the same as what had already been stated for months, but the only change was "We support these demonstrations. We now deem racism as more important than the spread of COVID, so be fruitful and gather!"

casinterest wrote:
This had nothing to do with politcal jerking around. That is only for politicians and folks that are dumb enough to watch nightly political shows and listen to daytime political radio.

I'm sorry, but no. Just the casual observation of a middle of the road observer...or anyone who has been prohibited from memorializing a loved one while seeing tens of thousands allowed (and lauded for it) to gather for George Floyd's funeral.

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Not a lot of hypocrisy. The first movement was for people against social distancing and flaunting it.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2 ... ality.html


You must be looking at different matches then I am, because I’ve seen many and I have seen very very little distancing and only moderate mask wearing. George Floyd’s memorial had 100,000 people at it, but due to Covid nearly 100,000 people in this country haven’t had a funeral of their own. That’s hypocritical.


I’m not taking away from the fact that I believe George Floyd was murdered by a police officer. I’m say supporting these marches and protests when there is a global pandemic, while restricting gatherings of over 10 people, restricting funerals etc is hypocritical.



It isn't hypocritical. It is life saving. You ever been to a Catholic Mass, or sat in a Movie Theatre or a Bar for a few hours? Ever been to a nightclub?

It's life saving, yet they felt the need to contravene these life saving measures that have been in place for weeks to express support and give their public health expert blessing to behaviors that just a week prior were considered reckless and life threatening? It's not even the indoors stuff. People were prohibited in most places from having any kind of funeral or memorial service (even outside with social distancing).

casinterest wrote:
At the end of the day people's lives are at risk, and that is why social distancing must be enforced. Please note, no one stopped people from attending. It was advised that they didn't, and if they did, that they practice social distancing.

And therein lies of the hypocrisy of it all. The two events received completely dissimilar treatment from the experts from what should have been an objective public health standpoint. Yes no one stopped the anti-lockdown protests, but the response was clear that gatherings of the scale were risky, could spread COVID, and if people were going to they should take precautions...some did and some didn't. By contrast, when it came to the BLM demonstrations it wasn't as if they simply came out and similarly said "These gatherings are dangerous with the pandemic and risk the further spread of COVID, people should think twice before gathering in large crowds, but if doing so please do X, Y, and Z to be safe." Rather they positively endorsed the demonstrations from a public health perspective and tried to do an end run around the illogic of it by making a ridiculous equivalency between a metaphorical epidemic of racism and a very literal viral epidemic.

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:


It isn't hypocritical. It is life saving. You ever been to a Catholic Mass, or sat in a Movie Theatre or a Bar for a few hours? Ever been to a nightclub?

At the end of the day people's lives are at risk, and that is why social distancing must be enforced. Please note, no one stopped people from attending. It was advised that they didn't, and if they did, that they practice social distancing.

Please read the below for more information on how fast the virus can spread, especially indoors.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/flori ... story.html


And again, how many people are socially distanced being mobbed together at a protest?


It depends, Are they standing next to the same person? Is the wind blowing, are they marching or standing? Are they wearing a mask?
Some people are distancing and staying back from the fray, some are not. Either way, the "experts" were not wrong to advise people to socially distance while still supporting protests.

I just wonder if this same type of logic, nuanced thinking was also applied to the anti-lockdown protests. I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, and I'll stress again that I didn't agree with the anti-lockdown protest crowd, but it's just emblematic I think of the amount of leeway and flexibility we allow for when it comes to things we agree with versus things we don't.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:41 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
It was known months ago that the risk of transmission outdoors in open air was substantially less risky, .


We know that for about one (!) month, before it was merely suggested. We also learned that exposure time is critical for the infection risk and on a beach you are pretty much by definition in the vicinity of the same people for a long time, during a larger march you are unlikely to be next to the same people for any stretch of time. People on the beach also pretty much never wear a mask, same with the people on anti lock down protests.

best regards
Thomas

Oh please. We also know that viral load matters when it comes to infection, and breezy/blustery beach conditions dilute the virus even when you're in the vicinity of the same people for longer periods of time. By contrast, at a crowded demonstration the number of people you're coming into direct contact with is much higher, and the higher density means that even while the people directly around you may change, you're going to be in the vicinity of the same people for an extended period of time.

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Bull. They're smart enough to know that by publicly penning a letter essentially giving their public health blessing that they were only going to increase crowds with a false sense of assurance ("if the experts approve, it must be ok"). If these behaviors were to be restricted and admonished prior to George Floyd based on the science, then the same was still true after. But instead you have people now being instructed that gatherings of 10 or more are prohibited...unless it's for a demonstration. The political jerking around has completely undermined their message.
.

Gatherings of more than 10 are allowed all over the US in various pockets.

...but still capped at significantly lower numbers than those afforded for demonstrations. Completely conflicting guidance.

casinterest wrote:
These doctors were providing a necessary service to people that were protesting anyhow.

And what service was that exactly? Encouraging denser crowds? :rotfl: The mitigation advice they offered was the same as what had already been stated for months, but the only change was "We support these demonstrations. We now deem racism as more important than the spread of COVID, so be fruitful and gather!"

casinterest wrote:
This had nothing to do with politcal jerking around. That is only for politicians and folks that are dumb enough to watch nightly political shows and listen to daytime political radio.

I'm sorry, but no. Just the casual observation of a middle of the road observer...or anyone who has been prohibited from memorializing a loved one while seeing tens of thousands allowed (and lauded for it) to gather for George Floyd's funeral.

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:

You must be looking at different matches then I am, because I’ve seen many and I have seen very very little distancing and only moderate mask wearing. George Floyd’s memorial had 100,000 people at it, but due to Covid nearly 100,000 people in this country haven’t had a funeral of their own. That’s hypocritical.


I’m not taking away from the fact that I believe George Floyd was murdered by a police officer. I’m say supporting these marches and protests when there is a global pandemic, while restricting gatherings of over 10 people, restricting funerals etc is hypocritical.



It isn't hypocritical. It is life saving. You ever been to a Catholic Mass, or sat in a Movie Theatre or a Bar for a few hours? Ever been to a nightclub?

It's life saving, yet they felt the need to contravene these life saving measures that have been in place for weeks to express support and give their public health expert blessing to behaviors that just a week prior were considered reckless and life threatening? It's not even the indoors stuff. People were prohibited in most places from having any kind of funeral or memorial service (even outside with social distancing).

casinterest wrote:
At the end of the day people's lives are at risk, and that is why social distancing must be enforced. Please note, no one stopped people from attending. It was advised that they didn't, and if they did, that they practice social distancing.

And therein lies of the hypocrisy of it all. The two events received completely dissimilar treatment from the experts from what should have been an objective public health standpoint. Yes no one stopped the anti-lockdown protests, but the response was clear that gatherings of the scale were risky, could spread COVID, and if people were going to they should take precautions...some did and some didn't. By contrast, when it came to the BLM demonstrations it wasn't as if they simply came out and similarly said "These gatherings are dangerous with the pandemic and risk the further spread of COVID, people should think twice before gathering in large crowds, but if doing so please do X, Y, and Z to be safe." Rather they positively endorsed the demonstrations from a public health perspective and tried to do an end run around the illogic of it by making a ridiculous equivalency between a metaphorical epidemic of racism and a very literal viral epidemic.


The anti lockdown protests were led by the worst type of people. Ignorant, uneducated folks fighting for further ignorance and death to the pandemic Sure they care about money, but that is because they don't save on their own. These are folks that are not the best for America.

The anti police brutality protests were led by people fighting the brutal racism and inconsistent treatment by the powers that should protect us all.

The experts do recognize that some fights and protests are worth having, and they promoted protection.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Chemist
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:46 pm

...and were there to be say, a political rally, indoors, in close quarters, with few wearing masks, and shouting and cheering, that would be the most irresponsible of all.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:55 pm

Chemist wrote:
...and were there to be say, a political rally, indoors, in close quarters, with few wearing masks, and shouting and cheering, that would be the most irresponsible of all.



Well when you have henchmen like the VP of the US, it means that irresponsibility is being promoted.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/vic ... cond-wave/

Isn't this the same guy who worried about being in a room with another person present because of what may happen, or what may appear to happen?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:57 pm

Does anyone know HOW LONG someone can stay asymptomatic?
 
ltbewr
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:32 pm

Many here are concerned with difference in attitudes by governments as to the massive anti-Racism protests vs. anti-lockdown protests as to increasing the amounts of people getting Covid-19. Lets face political reality - no politician dared to stop a protest mainly of Black persons out of fear of being charged as racist, that they let the anti-lockdown protests occur despite a few carrying guns and displaying symbols of hate and of losing their next election.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:29 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Does anyone know HOW LONG someone can stay asymptomatic?


There were reports of some people going up to 24 days before getting symptoms, but most studies figure 5-14 days.
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Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:31 pm

casinterest wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Does anyone know HOW LONG someone can stay asymptomatic?


There were reports of some people going up to 24 days before getting symptoms, but most studies figure 5-14 days.


So one month or several months is nonsense?
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:50 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Does anyone know HOW LONG someone can stay asymptomatic?


There were reports of some people going up to 24 days before getting symptoms, but most studies figure 5-14 days.


So one month or several months is nonsense?


It could be nonsense , by then they should have developed anitbodies or gotten sick.
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flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:17 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

We know that for about one (!) month, before it was merely suggested. We also learned that exposure time is critical for the infection risk and on a beach you are pretty much by definition in the vicinity of the same people for a long time, during a larger march you are unlikely to be next to the same people for any stretch of time. People on the beach also pretty much never wear a mask, same with the people on anti lock down protests.

best regards
Thomas

Oh please. We also know that viral load matters when it comes to infection, and breezy/blustery beach conditions dilute the virus even when you're in the vicinity of the same people for longer periods of time. By contrast, at a crowded demonstration the number of people you're coming into direct contact with is much higher, and the higher density means that even while the people directly around you may change, you're going to be in the vicinity of the same people for an extended period of time.

casinterest wrote:
Gatherings of more than 10 are allowed all over the US in various pockets.

...but still capped at significantly lower numbers than those afforded for demonstrations. Completely conflicting guidance.

casinterest wrote:
These doctors were providing a necessary service to people that were protesting anyhow.

And what service was that exactly? Encouraging denser crowds? :rotfl: The mitigation advice they offered was the same as what had already been stated for months, but the only change was "We support these demonstrations. We now deem racism as more important than the spread of COVID, so be fruitful and gather!"

casinterest wrote:
This had nothing to do with politcal jerking around. That is only for politicians and folks that are dumb enough to watch nightly political shows and listen to daytime political radio.

I'm sorry, but no. Just the casual observation of a middle of the road observer...or anyone who has been prohibited from memorializing a loved one while seeing tens of thousands allowed (and lauded for it) to gather for George Floyd's funeral.

casinterest wrote:


It isn't hypocritical. It is life saving. You ever been to a Catholic Mass, or sat in a Movie Theatre or a Bar for a few hours? Ever been to a nightclub?

It's life saving, yet they felt the need to contravene these life saving measures that have been in place for weeks to express support and give their public health expert blessing to behaviors that just a week prior were considered reckless and life threatening? It's not even the indoors stuff. People were prohibited in most places from having any kind of funeral or memorial service (even outside with social distancing).

casinterest wrote:
At the end of the day people's lives are at risk, and that is why social distancing must be enforced. Please note, no one stopped people from attending. It was advised that they didn't, and if they did, that they practice social distancing.

And therein lies of the hypocrisy of it all. The two events received completely dissimilar treatment from the experts from what should have been an objective public health standpoint. Yes no one stopped the anti-lockdown protests, but the response was clear that gatherings of the scale were risky, could spread COVID, and if people were going to they should take precautions...some did and some didn't. By contrast, when it came to the BLM demonstrations it wasn't as if they simply came out and similarly said "These gatherings are dangerous with the pandemic and risk the further spread of COVID, people should think twice before gathering in large crowds, but if doing so please do X, Y, and Z to be safe." Rather they positively endorsed the demonstrations from a public health perspective and tried to do an end run around the illogic of it by making a ridiculous equivalency between a metaphorical epidemic of racism and a very literal viral epidemic.


The anti lockdown protests were led by the worst type of people. Ignorant, uneducated folks fighting for further ignorance and death to the pandemic Sure they care about money, but that is because they don't save on their own. These are folks that are not the best for America.

The anti police brutality protests were led by people fighting the brutal racism and inconsistent treatment by the powers that should protect us all.

The experts do recognize that some fights and protests are worth having, and they promoted protection.

"Fights" of that nature are for activists, not for those who are supposed to be objective public health experts. At the end of the day an outbreak spurred by a George Floyd demonstration is going to be no less devastating than one brought on by an anti-lockdown protest. By your own statement they undermine their own principles simply because they deem one to be more good than the other for subjective reasons as it relates to the pandemic. So all I'm saying don't be surprised that people become more cynical about lockdown restrictions when the experts have revealed themselves as compromised and unprincipled in their guidance.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:30 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Oh please. We also know that viral load matters when it comes to infection, and breezy/blustery beach conditions dilute the virus even when you're in the vicinity of the same people for longer periods of time. By contrast, at a crowded demonstration the number of people you're coming into direct contact with is much higher, and the higher density means that even while the people directly around you may change, you're going to be in the vicinity of the same people for an extended period of time.


...but still capped at significantly lower numbers than those afforded for demonstrations. Completely conflicting guidance.


And what service was that exactly? Encouraging denser crowds? :rotfl: The mitigation advice they offered was the same as what had already been stated for months, but the only change was "We support these demonstrations. We now deem racism as more important than the spread of COVID, so be fruitful and gather!"


I'm sorry, but no. Just the casual observation of a middle of the road observer...or anyone who has been prohibited from memorializing a loved one while seeing tens of thousands allowed (and lauded for it) to gather for George Floyd's funeral.


It's life saving, yet they felt the need to contravene these life saving measures that have been in place for weeks to express support and give their public health expert blessing to behaviors that just a week prior were considered reckless and life threatening? It's not even the indoors stuff. People were prohibited in most places from having any kind of funeral or memorial service (even outside with social distancing).


And therein lies of the hypocrisy of it all. The two events received completely dissimilar treatment from the experts from what should have been an objective public health standpoint. Yes no one stopped the anti-lockdown protests, but the response was clear that gatherings of the scale were risky, could spread COVID, and if people were going to they should take precautions...some did and some didn't. By contrast, when it came to the BLM demonstrations it wasn't as if they simply came out and similarly said "These gatherings are dangerous with the pandemic and risk the further spread of COVID, people should think twice before gathering in large crowds, but if doing so please do X, Y, and Z to be safe." Rather they positively endorsed the demonstrations from a public health perspective and tried to do an end run around the illogic of it by making a ridiculous equivalency between a metaphorical epidemic of racism and a very literal viral epidemic.


The anti lockdown protests were led by the worst type of people. Ignorant, uneducated folks fighting for further ignorance and death to the pandemic Sure they care about money, but that is because they don't save on their own. These are folks that are not the best for America.

The anti police brutality protests were led by people fighting the brutal racism and inconsistent treatment by the powers that should protect us all.

The experts do recognize that some fights and protests are worth having, and they promoted protection.

"Fights" of that nature are for activists, not for those who are supposed to be objective public health experts. At the end of the day an outbreak spurred by a George Floyd demonstration is going to be no less devastating than one brought on by an anti-lockdown protest. By your own statement they undermine their own principles simply because they deem one to be more good than the other for subjective reasons as it relates to the pandemic. So all I'm saying don't be surprised that people become more cynical about lockdown restrictions when the experts have revealed themselves as compromised and unprincipled in their guidance.


Activists? Nope. I prefer to call them rational humans that see injustice and do something about it.
You are griping about experts that made very well known what their stance was on distancing, but also acknowledged that they supported what the protesters were fighting for.

This does not affect their expert status on what causes the transmission of the virus.

The people that are cynical can be better named as uninformed and ignorant. Or just don't care about their fellow neighbors.
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flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:12 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The anti lockdown protests were led by the worst type of people. Ignorant, uneducated folks fighting for further ignorance and death to the pandemic Sure they care about money, but that is because they don't save on their own. These are folks that are not the best for America.

The anti police brutality protests were led by people fighting the brutal racism and inconsistent treatment by the powers that should protect us all.

The experts do recognize that some fights and protests are worth having, and they promoted protection.

"Fights" of that nature are for activists, not for those who are supposed to be objective public health experts. At the end of the day an outbreak spurred by a George Floyd demonstration is going to be no less devastating than one brought on by an anti-lockdown protest. By your own statement they undermine their own principles simply because they deem one to be more good than the other for subjective reasons as it relates to the pandemic. So all I'm saying don't be surprised that people become more cynical about lockdown restrictions when the experts have revealed themselves as compromised and unprincipled in their guidance.


Activists? Nope. I prefer to call them rational humans that see injustice and do something about it.

I.e. spread more COVID and get more people killed?

casinterest wrote:
You are griping about experts that made very well known what their stance was on distancing, but also acknowledged that they supported what the protesters were fighting for.

Nope, my beef is the fact that they're ostensibly supposed to be trying to contain COVID and save lives, not spread it more by giving license to behaviors very risky to public health. You don't pen a very public letter like that without knowing you're going to further encourage risky behaviors.

casinterest wrote:
This does not affect their expert status on what causes the transmission of the virus.

Questionable. I'll state again, how is a COVID outbreak from a BLM protest any less devastating than one stemming from a protest for any other reason. The virus isn't going to care whether one is more noble than the other.

casinterest wrote:
The people that are cynical can be better named as uninformed and ignorant. Or just don't care about their fellow neighbors.

Keep digging yourself that hole by all means, but it doesn't take an "uninformed and ignorant" person to wonder why they can't have, for example, a socially distanced outdoor funeral with 10 or more people, unless they happen to also be demonstrating police brutality.
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:17 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
"Fights" of that nature are for activists, not for those who are supposed to be objective public health experts. At the end of the day an outbreak spurred by a George Floyd demonstration is going to be no less devastating than one brought on by an anti-lockdown protest. By your own statement they undermine their own principles simply because they deem one to be more good than the other for subjective reasons as it relates to the pandemic. So all I'm saying don't be surprised that people become more cynical about lockdown restrictions when the experts have revealed themselves as compromised and unprincipled in their guidance.


Activists? Nope. I prefer to call them rational humans that see injustice and do something about it.

I.e. spread more COVID and get more people killed?

casinterest wrote:
You are griping about experts that made very well known what their stance was on distancing, but also acknowledged that they supported what the protesters were fighting for.

Nope, my beef is the fact that they're ostensibly supposed to be trying to contain COVID and save lives, not spread it more by giving license to behaviors very risky to public health. You don't pen a very public letter like that without knowing you're going to further encourage risky behaviors.

casinterest wrote:
This does not affect their expert status on what causes the transmission of the virus.

Questionable. I'll state again, how is a COVID outbreak from a BLM protest any less devastating than one stemming from a protest for any other reason. The virus isn't going to care whether one is more noble than the other.

casinterest wrote:
The people that are cynical can be better named as uninformed and ignorant. Or just don't care about their fellow neighbors.

Keep digging yourself that hole by all means, but it doesn't take an "uninformed and ignorant" person to wonder why they can't have, for example, a socially distanced outdoor funeral with 10 or more people, unless they happen to also be demonstrating police brutality.


I ask you this. What are the experts wrong about? Seriously?
They explained the risks.

They also supported the cause with their feeling on social distancing. It is not their fault that certain folks didn't follow the guidelines.
I am not digging any hole. You just keep moving goal posts.
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flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:50 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Activists? Nope. I prefer to call them rational humans that see injustice and do something about it.

I.e. spread more COVID and get more people killed?

casinterest wrote:
You are griping about experts that made very well known what their stance was on distancing, but also acknowledged that they supported what the protesters were fighting for.

Nope, my beef is the fact that they're ostensibly supposed to be trying to contain COVID and save lives, not spread it more by giving license to behaviors very risky to public health. You don't pen a very public letter like that without knowing you're going to further encourage risky behaviors.

casinterest wrote:
This does not affect their expert status on what causes the transmission of the virus.

Questionable. I'll state again, how is a COVID outbreak from a BLM protest any less devastating than one stemming from a protest for any other reason. The virus isn't going to care whether one is more noble than the other.

casinterest wrote:
The people that are cynical can be better named as uninformed and ignorant. Or just don't care about their fellow neighbors.

Keep digging yourself that hole by all means, but it doesn't take an "uninformed and ignorant" person to wonder why they can't have, for example, a socially distanced outdoor funeral with 10 or more people, unless they happen to also be demonstrating police brutality.


I ask you this. What are the experts wrong about? Seriously?
They explained the risks.

They also supported the cause with their feeling on social distancing. It is not their fault that certain folks didn't follow the guidelines.
I am not digging any hole. You just keep moving goal posts.

I already quoted it way up-thread:

However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States....Protests against systemic racism, which fosters the disproportionate burden of COVID-19 on Black communities and also perpetuates police violence, must be supported.


These are not tame words simply not condemning the protests and offering friendly safety tips. It's a call-to-action and a license from experts to do things experts have been saying exactly not to do to not spread COVID and kill people. Oh and just extra rich how they say Blacks are more at risk of COVID, but then offer permissiveness here to put the most vulnerable population at even MORE risk.
 
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:09 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I.e. spread more COVID and get more people killed?


Nope, my beef is the fact that they're ostensibly supposed to be trying to contain COVID and save lives, not spread it more by giving license to behaviors very risky to public health. You don't pen a very public letter like that without knowing you're going to further encourage risky behaviors.


Questionable. I'll state again, how is a COVID outbreak from a BLM protest any less devastating than one stemming from a protest for any other reason. The virus isn't going to care whether one is more noble than the other.


Keep digging yourself that hole by all means, but it doesn't take an "uninformed and ignorant" person to wonder why they can't have, for example, a socially distanced outdoor funeral with 10 or more people, unless they happen to also be demonstrating police brutality.


I ask you this. What are the experts wrong about? Seriously?
They explained the risks.

They also supported the cause with their feeling on social distancing. It is not their fault that certain folks didn't follow the guidelines.
I am not digging any hole. You just keep moving goal posts.

I already quoted it way up-thread:

However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States....Protests against systemic racism, which fosters the disproportionate burden of COVID-19 on Black communities and also perpetuates police violence, must be supported.


These are not tame words simply not condemning the protests and offering friendly safety tips. It's a call-to-action and a license from experts to do things experts have been saying exactly not to do to not spread COVID and kill people. Oh and just extra rich how they say Blacks are more at risk of COVID, but then offer permissiveness here to put the most vulnerable population at even MORE risk.


Yet you selectively omit.

"Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of
COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during
demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy."



Here is the whole letter so you can inform yourself on the health issues the doctors were concerned about .

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4W ... b7K1A/view
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Aesma
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:12 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Many here are concerned with difference in attitudes by governments as to the massive anti-Racism protests vs. anti-lockdown protests as to increasing the amounts of people getting Covid-19. Lets face political reality - no politician dared to stop a protest mainly of Black persons out of fear of being charged as racist, that they let the anti-lockdown protests occur despite a few carrying guns and displaying symbols of hate and of losing their next election.


As opposed to small protests of mainly white people being stopped ? Are you for real ?
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flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

I ask you this. What are the experts wrong about? Seriously?
They explained the risks.

They also supported the cause with their feeling on social distancing. It is not their fault that certain folks didn't follow the guidelines.
I am not digging any hole. You just keep moving goal posts.

I already quoted it way up-thread:

However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States....Protests against systemic racism, which fosters the disproportionate burden of COVID-19 on Black communities and also perpetuates police violence, must be supported.


These are not tame words simply not condemning the protests and offering friendly safety tips. It's a call-to-action and a license from experts to do things experts have been saying exactly not to do to not spread COVID and kill people. Oh and just extra rich how they say Blacks are more at risk of COVID, but then offer permissiveness here to put the most vulnerable population at even MORE risk.


Yet you selectively omit.

"Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of
COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during
demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy."



Here is the whole letter so you can inform yourself on the health issues the doctors were concerned about .

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4W ... b7K1A/view

No, you asked me to point out what I thought they were wrong about. The full letter is in the CNN article as well. There is no reconciling "Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices" with "We do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health..." If they're not risky for COVID transmission, why did they have to offer up the public health best practices for minimizing the spread? Completely contradictory and nonsensical for anything other than signaling at the expense containing COVID.
 
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:57 pm

casinterest wrote:

The anti police brutality protests were led by people fighting the brutal racism and inconsistent treatment by the powers that should protect us all.



The people protesting in the streets or supporting the protests are the same people who for two months publicly shamed anyone who stepped foot outside their door, calling them murderers and responded to any gathering with “I see dead people” memes. Everyone also shouted that its not just your own health, but the health of the collective that is threatened by gathering. Now it’s protestors putting their lives on the line for the cause. No, they are putting all of our lives on the line!

I support the protests but it blows my mind that people are arguing over what is the bigger problem for a pandemic as if it matters. I saw someone called racist for suggesting the spikes include people the protests. Unreal.

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Oh please. We also know that viral load matters when it comes to infection, and breezy/blustery beach conditions dilute the virus even when you're in the vicinity of the same people for longer periods of time. By contrast, at a crowded demonstration the number of people you're coming into direct contact with is much higher, and the higher density means that even while the people directly around you may change, you're going to be in the vicinity of the same people for an extended period of time.


...but still capped at significantly lower numbers than those afforded for demonstrations. Completely conflicting guidance.


And what service was that exactly? Encouraging denser crowds? :rotfl: The mitigation advice they offered was the same as what had already been stated for months, but the only change was "We support these demonstrations. We now deem racism as more important than the spread of COVID, so be fruitful and gather!"


I'm sorry, but no. Just the casual observation of a middle of the road observer...or anyone who has been prohibited from memorializing a loved one while seeing tens of thousands allowed (and lauded for it) to gather for George Floyd's funeral.


It's life saving, yet they felt the need to contravene these life saving measures that have been in place for weeks to express support and give their public health expert blessing to behaviors that just a week prior were considered reckless and life threatening? It's not even the indoors stuff. People were prohibited in most places from having any kind of funeral or memorial service (even outside with social distancing).


And therein lies of the hypocrisy of it all. The two events received completely dissimilar treatment from the experts from what should have been an objective public health standpoint. Yes no one stopped the anti-lockdown protests, but the response was clear that gatherings of the scale were risky, could spread COVID, and if people were going to they should take precautions...some did and some didn't. By contrast, when it came to the BLM demonstrations it wasn't as if they simply came out and similarly said "These gatherings are dangerous with the pandemic and risk the further spread of COVID, people should think twice before gathering in large crowds, but if doing so please do X, Y, and Z to be safe." Rather they positively endorsed the demonstrations from a public health perspective and tried to do an end run around the illogic of it by making a ridiculous equivalency between a metaphorical epidemic of racism and a very literal viral epidemic.


The anti lockdown protests were led by the worst type of people. Ignorant, uneducated folks fighting for further ignorance and death to the pandemic Sure they care about money, but that is because they don't save on their own. These are folks that are not the best for America.

The anti police brutality protests were led by people fighting the brutal racism and inconsistent treatment by the powers that should protect us all.

The experts do recognize that some fights and protests are worth having, and they promoted protection.

"Fights" of that nature are for activists, not for those who are supposed to be objective public health experts. At the end of the day an outbreak spurred by a George Floyd demonstration is going to be no less devastating than one brought on by an anti-lockdown protest. By your own statement they undermine their own principles simply because they deem one to be more good than the other for subjective reasons as it relates to the pandemic. So all I'm saying don't be surprised that people become more cynical about lockdown restrictions when the experts have revealed themselves as compromised and unprincipled in their guidance.


After a two week break from the COVID hysteria, now that numbers are rising everyone is freaking out wondering why Americans stopped taking the pandemic seriously. People complied with lockdown measures because they were led to believe the virus had to be stopped at all costs. I can’t get my head around nobody willing to admit that the timing of the protests hurt the pandemic cause. It was already an uphill battle against the people who wanted to reopen the economy before the protests. Now any hope of collective support is gone.
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Dieuwer
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:10 pm

In all fairness, only a dozen or so states have R0 > 1. https://rt.live/
Fortunately, I live in a state on the far left of that curve :)
 
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casinterest
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:18 am

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I already quoted it way up-thread:



These are not tame words simply not condemning the protests and offering friendly safety tips. It's a call-to-action and a license from experts to do things experts have been saying exactly not to do to not spread COVID and kill people. Oh and just extra rich how they say Blacks are more at risk of COVID, but then offer permissiveness here to put the most vulnerable population at even MORE risk.


Yet you selectively omit.

"Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of
COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during
demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy."



Here is the whole letter so you can inform yourself on the health issues the doctors were concerned about .

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4W ... b7K1A/view

No, you asked me to point out what I thought they were wrong about. The full letter is in the CNN article as well. There is no reconciling "Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices" with "We do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health..." If they're not risky for COVID transmission, why did they have to offer up the public health best practices for minimizing the spread? Completely contradictory and nonsensical for anything other than signaling at the expense containing COVID.



There is plenty of reconciling when you realize that racism is one of the reasons why Covid is affecting certain communities so strongly.

At the end of the day, these experts are on the right side of history. This is a cause worth fighting for, even in the face of a pandemic.

It is a much better cause than the fols that are going to go to see a liar on Saturday, and the others that want to go to a NASCAR race.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
flyguy89
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Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:00 am

Silver1SWA wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The anti police brutality protests were led by people fighting the brutal racism and inconsistent treatment by the powers that should protect us all.



The people protesting in the streets or supporting the protests are the same people who for two months publicly shamed anyone who stepped foot outside their door, calling them murderers and responded to any gathering with “I see dead people” memes. Everyone also shouted that its not just your own health, but the health of the collective that is threatened by gathering. Now it’s protestors putting their lives on the line for the cause. No, they are putting all of our lives on the line!

I support the protests but it blows my mind that people are arguing over what is the bigger problem for a pandemic as if it matters. I saw someone called racist for suggesting the spikes include people the protests. Unreal.

flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The anti lockdown protests were led by the worst type of people. Ignorant, uneducated folks fighting for further ignorance and death to the pandemic Sure they care about money, but that is because they don't save on their own. These are folks that are not the best for America.

The anti police brutality protests were led by people fighting the brutal racism and inconsistent treatment by the powers that should protect us all.

The experts do recognize that some fights and protests are worth having, and they promoted protection.

"Fights" of that nature are for activists, not for those who are supposed to be objective public health experts. At the end of the day an outbreak spurred by a George Floyd demonstration is going to be no less devastating than one brought on by an anti-lockdown protest. By your own statement they undermine their own principles simply because they deem one to be more good than the other for subjective reasons as it relates to the pandemic. So all I'm saying don't be surprised that people become more cynical about lockdown restrictions when the experts have revealed themselves as compromised and unprincipled in their guidance.


After a two week break from the COVID hysteria, now that numbers are rising everyone is freaking out wondering why Americans stopped taking the pandemic seriously. People complied with lockdown measures because they were led to believe the virus had to be stopped at all costs. I can’t get my head around nobody willing to admit that the timing of the protests hurt the pandemic cause. It was already an uphill battle against the people who wanted to reopen the economy before the protests. Now any hope of collective support is gone.

:checkmark:

And then they're incredulous about why many have thrown up their hands.

casinterest wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Yet you selectively omit.




Here is the whole letter so you can inform yourself on the health issues the doctors were concerned about .

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4W ... b7K1A/view

No, you asked me to point out what I thought they were wrong about. The full letter is in the CNN article as well. There is no reconciling "Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices" with "We do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health..." If they're not risky for COVID transmission, why did they have to offer up the public health best practices for minimizing the spread? Completely contradictory and nonsensical for anything other than signaling at the expense containing COVID.



There is plenty of reconciling when you realize that racism is one of the reasons why Covid is affecting certain communities so strongly.

At the end of the day, these experts are on the right side of history. This is a cause worth fighting for, even in the face of a pandemic.

It is a much better cause than the fols that are going to go to see a liar on Saturday, and the others that want to go to a NASCAR race.

OK great, so the "you're killing grandma" crowd is now actually OK with killing grandma so long as it's to be on the proverbial right side of history.
 
Derico
Posts: 4407
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:35 am

The problem with the people in all countries that want to totally open again, is that they want to totally open, but also are too lazy to take all the extra precautions to make it work. It's like the people that like the adult pleasures of sex but don't want to deal with the adult consequences.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2412
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: COVID-19 Non Aviation Thread - June 2020

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:47 pm

To get a clearer picture, I think it would be a good idea to absolutely test everyone. Symptoms or no symptoms. Feeling fine or feeling ill.
Because as of now, "more cases" can simply mean more testing, while "no cases" can simply mean more testing of healthy people or no testing at all.

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