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Aaron747
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Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:23 pm

The Lincoln Project - a who's who of Never Trump GOPers, put out a pretty impressive ad last night. It's refreshing to see that a strong moral compass can still be associated with conservative positions, and even moreso, that the incredibly divisive nature of this administration is called out so directly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w7kwtLJtVc
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Tugger
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:56 pm

Yes, I always used this argument when the Confederate statutes were being finally removed from public spaces, and Confederate names from schools and the "Stars and Bars" was taken down from atop government buildings.

Why does anyone encourage or want to support people treasonous to the USA? Might as well erect monuments to the Red Coats in Boston and put up statues of Soviet spies like the Rosenberg's or Aldrich Ames, name schools and streets to honor them. :banghead:

Tugg
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SL1200MK2
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:35 pm

Tugger wrote:
Yes, I always used this argument when the Confederate statutes were being finally removed from public spaces, and Confederate names from schools and the "Stars and Bars" was taken down from atop government buildings.

Why does anyone encourage or want to support people treasonous to the USA? Might as well erect monuments to the Red Coats in Boston and put up statues of Soviet spies like the Rosenberg's or Aldrich Ames, name schools and streets to honor them. :banghead:

Tugg


Typically, they call it "heritage", and my guess is that they miss slavery and hope that one day they can go back to being dumb racists even more openly than they already are.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:03 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, I always used this argument when the Confederate statutes were being finally removed from public spaces, and Confederate names from schools and the "Stars and Bars" was taken down from atop government buildings.

Why does anyone encourage or want to support people treasonous to the USA? Might as well erect monuments to the Red Coats in Boston and put up statues of Soviet spies like the Rosenberg's or Aldrich Ames, name schools and streets to honor them. :banghead:

Tugg


Typically, they call it "heritage", and my guess is that they miss slavery and hope that one day they can go back to being dumb racists even more openly than they already are.


I visted Montgomery, AL with my family back in January. I'm very interested in history, and vaguely contemplated visiting the first white house of the confederacy. Then I told myself "what the hell are you thinking" and we spent our time learning about the civil rights movement in the city.

I agree with the never-Trumpers, but fomr what countries outside of the USA consider to be the centre left (Trump would consider me slightly to the right of his left-wrong terrorists). I can respect that people held their noses and voted Trump as they can never vote Dem.

But I cannot respect a person who supports Trump personally.
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kaitak
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:22 am

You know those FB memes where they ask people to give "wrong answers only". I wonder if Trump is perpetually trapped in one of those. It's as if there's a little committee in his head which asks: what action can I take to make this bad situation even worse?

Have you thought about using protesters to clear an area in front of a church - with tear gas, stand in front of that church with a bible and threaten to use the military to clear protesters.

Yeah, that'll shake things up ... let's do that!

I've said it before and I'd I'll say it again: the more I see this guy in action, the more I can understand Russian interference in the 2016 election; it was as much to make sure Trump got elected as it was about keeping Hilary out. They didn't need to give him a shopping list of things to do; what they wanted was very simple ... "just be yourself". And boy, is he making a complete dog's dinner of the whole thing.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:39 am

Tugger wrote:
Yes, I always used this argument when the Confederate statutes were being finally removed from public spaces, and Confederate names from schools and the "Stars and Bars" was taken down from atop government buildings.


I find hilarious how all the Southerners who fly the Confederate flag say they're doing so out out history, or pride, or as act of rebellion or whatever.

Hey rednecks, you're flying the flag of a bunch of losers. That's what the Confederacy was, a bunch of losers who lost the war and surrendered at the end of it.

Why you would try and idolize those losers is beyond me.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:29 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, I always used this argument when the Confederate statutes were being finally removed from public spaces, and Confederate names from schools and the "Stars and Bars" was taken down from atop government buildings.

Why does anyone encourage or want to support people treasonous to the USA? Might as well erect monuments to the Red Coats in Boston and put up statues of Soviet spies like the Rosenberg's or Aldrich Ames, name schools and streets to honor them. :banghead:

Tugg


Typically, they call it "heritage", and my guess is that they miss slavery and hope that one day they can go back to being dumb racists even more openly than they already are.


Yeah.. that is the same reason why so many people fly a Swastika flag here all the time... oh.. right... pretty much no one does.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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scbriml
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:02 am

tommy1808 wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, I always used this argument when the Confederate statutes were being finally removed from public spaces, and Confederate names from schools and the "Stars and Bars" was taken down from atop government buildings.

Why does anyone encourage or want to support people treasonous to the USA? Might as well erect monuments to the Red Coats in Boston and put up statues of Soviet spies like the Rosenberg's or Aldrich Ames, name schools and streets to honor them. :banghead:

Tugg


Typically, they call it "heritage", and my guess is that they miss slavery and hope that one day they can go back to being dumb racists even more openly than they already are.


Yeah.. that is the same reason why so many people fly a Swastika flag here all the time... oh.. right... pretty much no one does.

Best regards
Thomas


Yeah, but "rights and freedom".

My wife and I were driving in Florida in 2018 and on one highway we were being rapidly caught by a beaten up old Ford F-150 painted the same as The General Lee from The Dukes of Hazzard. Before it passed, I said to my wife, this could only be more redneck if they were flying the confederate flag. They were.
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tommy1808
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:01 am

scbriml wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:

Typically, they call it "heritage", and my guess is that they miss slavery and hope that one day they can go back to being dumb racists even more openly than they already are.


Yeah.. that is the same reason why so many people fly a Swastika flag here all the time... oh.. right... pretty much no one does.

Best regards
Thomas


Yeah, but "rights and freedom".

My wife and I were driving in Florida in 2018 and on one highway we were being rapidly caught by a beaten up old Ford F-150 painted the same as The General Lee from The Dukes of Hazzard. Before it passed, I said to my wife, this could only be more redneck if they were flying the confederate flag. They were.


and, of course, there is this:

White instigators to blame for mayhem in some protests, local officials say

“It is striking how many of the people who were doing the looting and stealing and the fires over the weekend were young white males,” Durkan (D) said in an interview.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
GDB
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:03 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, I always used this argument when the Confederate statutes were being finally removed from public spaces, and Confederate names from schools and the "Stars and Bars" was taken down from atop government buildings.


I find hilarious how all the Southerners who fly the Confederate flag say they're doing so out out history, or pride, or as act of rebellion or whatever.

Hey rednecks, you're flying the flag of a bunch of losers. That's what the Confederacy was, a bunch of losers who lost the war and surrendered at the end of it.

Why you would try and idolize those losers is beyond me.


Neo Nazi's love Swastikas too, often at these demos of Trumps 'fine people' they are in evidence with the other symbol of evil, the Confederate Flag.
Question is, the Swastika was banned in post WW2 Germany, why wasn't the flag of traitors to the USA?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:26 am

GDB wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, I always used this argument when the Confederate statutes were being finally removed from public spaces, and Confederate names from schools and the "Stars and Bars" was taken down from atop government buildings.


I find hilarious how all the Southerners who fly the Confederate flag say they're doing so out out history, or pride, or as act of rebellion or whatever.

Hey rednecks, you're flying the flag of a bunch of losers. That's what the Confederacy was, a bunch of losers who lost the war and surrendered at the end of it.

Why you would try and idolize those losers is beyond me.


Neo Nazi's love Swastikas too, often at these demos of Trumps 'fine people' they are in evidence with the other symbol of evil, the Confederate Flag.
Question is, the Swastika was banned in post WW2 Germany, why wasn't the flag of traitors to the USA?


Freedom of expression, obviously. No?
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Aesma
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:48 am

Wasn't it appeasement, rather ?

BTW wasn't owning slaves a thing of the rich and educated ? While the poor were basically working alongside them ?
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tommy1808
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
GDB wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

I find hilarious how all the Southerners who fly the Confederate flag say they're doing so out out history, or pride, or as act of rebellion or whatever.

Hey rednecks, you're flying the flag of a bunch of losers. That's what the Confederacy was, a bunch of losers who lost the war and surrendered at the end of it.

Why you would try and idolize those losers is beyond me.


Neo Nazi's love Swastikas too, often at these demos of Trumps 'fine people' they are in evidence with the other symbol of evil, the Confederate Flag.
Question is, the Swastika was banned in post WW2 Germany, why wasn't the flag of traitors to the USA?


Freedom of expression, obviously. No?


Can´t be the reason, since that is in the constitution here too:

Art 5GG wrote:
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship..



best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
VSMUT
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:35 am

Aesma wrote:
Wasn't it appeasement, rather?


It was. They realized that they had to live with the former traitors, so they took steps to meet each other in the middle. But the use of the flag and erecting statues and monuments is a much newer thing.
 
GDB
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GDB wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

I find hilarious how all the Southerners who fly the Confederate flag say they're doing so out out history, or pride, or as act of rebellion or whatever.

Hey rednecks, you're flying the flag of a bunch of losers. That's what the Confederacy was, a bunch of losers who lost the war and surrendered at the end of it.

Why you would try and idolize those losers is beyond me.


Neo Nazi's love Swastikas too, often at these demos of Trumps 'fine people' they are in evidence with the other symbol of evil, the Confederate Flag.
Question is, the Swastika was banned in post WW2 Germany, why wasn't the flag of traitors to the USA?


Freedom of expression, obviously. No?


Maybe, though it seems 'freedom of expression' is OK when it's a symbol of past evils and current injustice.
But a Footballer going on one knee is far too much 'freedom of expression' for the Vice President so he promptly walked out of the stadium.
Their agendas are not very well hidden. You know given a chance, this admin would severely restrict freedom of expression, the whole attacks on the media, 'fake news', lies at the heart of that.

Unlike in 1974, when faced with a GOP President who had to go, (still he was a lot better than Trump), there were enough honorable GOP lawmakers who told him otherwise. Now?
So no, they cannot be trusted to protect freedom of expression, unless it's via them to their joke 'news' channels.

Tear gassing peaceful protestors so that pathetic man can have his dumb photo op, where was their 'freedom of expression?'
Threatening to use lethal force on protestors?
 
ltbewr
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:59 pm

The USA's 1st Amendment freedom of speech is one of its most important rights and subject to very few statutory limits. In large part it was to allow persons to criticize government without a King throwing you into jail or killing you for doing so. It means unpopular and offensive speech must be allowed, hopefully challenged by more free speech. Unlike some EU countries we cannot ban displays of the CSA battle flag or even Nazi symbols. This ad of the Lincoln Project is a proper way to challenge the displays of these symbols of hate they have become and of the hate of those that support them.
 
N867DA
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:00 pm

In 2020 Confederate flags or symbols on someone's private property tracks very closely with some pretty interesting socioeconomic views. The "muh heritage" argument was pretty weak but those flags are cropping up in northern Michigan, New York, Oregon...all over the place. It's almost like the flag isn't just about heritage or something.
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:19 pm

The usual response from these people is that by removing the symbols we're erasing history (you know, because history books and museums and documentaries don't exist). But I'll bet that if you proposed building something in honor of Al Qaeda, they would immediately revolt, because how dare you worship enemies of the country (and all irony will be lost, despite the fact that Al Qaeda's action defined the nation).
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casinterest
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:21 pm

Interesting article for those that still believe the confederate Flag heritage argument

https://www.live5news.com/2020/05/31/fo ... ng-events/

From the article

" I eventually learned, however, that those in the Confederate Heritage Community who genuinely wish to preserve the cultural, historical, and academic value of the Confederacy are greatly and irreversibly outnumbered by those who have far less honorable motives.
"
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tommy1808
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:27 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
The usual response from these people is that by removing the symbols we're erasing history (you know, because history books and museums and documentaries don't exist).


Well... no need to remove statues, just add context: this is a statute of the traitor XY, who went to war and killed fellow americans, so slavery could continue.

I would bet they wouldn't like that either...

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Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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zkojq
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:37 pm

Why is it that The Lincoln Project constantly makes very effective ads that paint Trump & his supporters as the very weak individuals that they are yet Democrats seem perpetually unable to make anything with close to the same effect.

Pointing out that he is weak and a loser is far more effective than pointing out that he's "bad".
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Tugger
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:43 pm

Aesma wrote:
BTW wasn't owning slaves a thing of the rich and educated ? While the poor were basically working alongside them ?

Well, the important things is they could still look down on slaves! Sure they were poor, with broken homes and little chance to rise in their society, but they could attack, blame, spit on, whatever, them and know they as poor white laborers were still better than slaves.... That is where this all began, where the mentality that still persists somehow today, started. People feel superior to others and empowered to think less of others for no reason beyond the color of ones skin.

N867DA wrote:
In 2020 Confederate flags or symbols on someone's private property tracks very closely with some pretty interesting socioeconomic views. The "muh heritage" argument was pretty weak but those flags are cropping up in northern Michigan, New York, Oregon...all over the place. It's almost like the flag isn't just about heritage or something.

Well yeah: Rebellion!

Those people are saying "screw the USA" and also "lets split and divide the nation". These people do not love their country, they are for themselves. Those that fly the flag of treason, a declaration of destroying the United States, are not people of integrity that support our nation. They want something different. But of course they are "very fine people"....

Tugg
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VSMUT
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:49 pm

zkojq wrote:
Why is it that The Lincoln Project constantly makes very effective ads that paint Trump & his supporters as the very weak individuals that they are yet Democrats seem perpetually unable to make anything with close to the same effect.

Pointing out that he is weak and a loser is far more effective than pointing out that he's "bad".


Because the democrats leadership is more busy beating down internal candidates that want to challenge the party's corporate backers, and would rather see Trump in power than a more left wing democrat.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:51 pm

zkojq wrote:
Why is it that The Lincoln Project constantly makes very effective ads that paint Trump & his supporters as the very weak individuals that they are yet Democrats seem perpetually unable to make anything with close to the same effect.

Pointing out that he is weak and a loser is far more effective than pointing out that he's "bad".


Agreed, Never Trump conservatives are far better at this messaging than Dems are, bar none. They understand the audience better because they have been amongst them and aren't stuck in an echo chamber. To defeat Trumpism, you have to trigger him and the base into showing their true colors to an ever more obvious extent. That's what will keep driving suburban women and seniors with moral values away.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:18 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Because the democrats leadership is more busy beating down internal candidates that want to challenge the party's corporate backers, and would rather see Trump in power than a more left wing democrat.

Uh-huh...the corporate establishment Democrats managed to get voters registered not only in their own state but every other state (a WA voter is registered in OR and CA and FL and AL...) in parallel with colluding with Secretaries of State of all the states to rig the results at the end, and that's why the Revolution was squashed.

It had nothing to do with people wanting to find an appealing candidate to defeat Trump or the revolutionaries being too comfortable in their own homes to vote...yes, it's the evil DNC deploying the same people to every state to cast ballots and rig the elections.
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seb146
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:37 pm

Aesma wrote:
Wasn't it appeasement, rather ?

BTW wasn't owning slaves a thing of the rich and educated ? While the poor were basically working alongside them ?


Appeasement is how we ended up with a lot of things. Most notably, the Electoral College. There is one other big one but that would open a can of worms.

Yes, slaves were mostly Black. There were poor White slaves, too, but they had higher status on the plantations. They would have their debts paid off much quicker than their Black counterparts.
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seb146
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:43 pm

VSMUT wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why is it that The Lincoln Project constantly makes very effective ads that paint Trump & his supporters as the very weak individuals that they are yet Democrats seem perpetually unable to make anything with close to the same effect.

Pointing out that he is weak and a loser is far more effective than pointing out that he's "bad".


Because the democrats leadership is more busy beating down internal candidates that want to challenge the party's corporate backers, and would rather see Trump in power than a more left wing democrat.


Could it be that people inside the Lincoln Project are Republican insiders? They have seen the Republican playbook and understand how to use it?

https://www.foxnews.com/media/george-wi ... p-takedown

George Will, conservative commentator, wants Democrats to win every race they can.

My concern is that the occupant of the White House is already calling the November elections rigged and his henchman Bill Barr is telling people how they will lose the rigged election.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ag-barr ... ots-2020-6

Mail in ballots are not an option since a major donor is now head of USPS

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/0 ... ral-241381
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:15 pm

seb146 wrote:
My concern is that the occupant of the White House is already calling the November elections rigged and his henchman Bill Barr is telling people how they will lose the rigged election.


It's way simpler than that. Just make sure Coronavirus is running rampant in the cities, and half the citydwellers will stay away. The poor and uninsured will be too afraid to stand in line for the polling stations.

OTOH, people on the countryside have less to fear and the most rabid Trump voters gladly ran out in protest with their guns, so we know they aren't afraid of voting.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:42 am

Aaron747 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why is it that The Lincoln Project constantly makes very effective ads that paint Trump & his supporters as the very weak individuals that they are yet Democrats seem perpetually unable to make anything with close to the same effect.

Pointing out that he is weak and a loser is far more effective than pointing out that he's "bad".


Agreed, Never Trump conservatives are far better at this messaging than Dems are, bar none. .


The Biden campaign did put out some fairly good ones recently.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:41 pm

VSMUT wrote:
It's way simpler than that. Just make sure Coronavirus is running rampant in the cities, and half the citydwellers will stay away. The poor and uninsured will be too afraid to stand in line for the polling stations.


I'd like to think we saw that change with the recent primary in WI.
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Aaron747
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:38 am

Lincoln Project reporting their ad was not run in Raleigh, NC for being ‘too inflammatory’. LOL

https://twitter.com/madrid_mike/status/ ... 48512?s=21
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:54 am

NWAESC wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It's way simpler than that. Just make sure Coronavirus is running rampant in the cities, and half the citydwellers will stay away. The poor and uninsured will be too afraid to stand in line for the polling stations.


I'd like to think we saw that change with the recent primary in WI.


That and the with the war crimes trump committed this week, I think a lot more people will be willing to take a chance for something as important as this. I sincerely hope Lincoln Project does not waste the events of this week and shows again —and again— what happened in DC.

If I see indications of that happening, they will certainly find themselves on my list of things to donate to.
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tommy1808
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:26 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It's way simpler than that. Just make sure Coronavirus is running rampant in the cities, and half the citydwellers will stay away. The poor and uninsured will be too afraid to stand in line for the polling stations.


I'd like to think we saw that change with the recent primary in WI.


That and the with the war crimes trump committed this week, I think a lot more people will be willing to take a chance for something as important as this. I sincerely hope Lincoln Project does not waste the events of this week and shows again —and again— what happened in DC.

If I see indications of that happening, they will certainly find themselves on my list of things to donate to.


You can not commit war crimes in your own country...

But yeah.. had they done that on a battlefield it would be a war crime.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Sokes
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:23 pm

This video claims to support unity, when it really tries to divide. Let's not discuss economic policies or healthcare. Let's discuss flags!
What an emotional diarrhoea. Why is democracy so pathetic?

"In a national survey in 2015 across all races, 57% of Americans had the opinion that the Confederate flag represented Southern pride rather than racism. A similar poll in 2000 had a nearly identical result of 59%. However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result: 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride. Conversely, 75% of Southern blacks said the flag symbolized racism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_di ... (2011-2017)
https://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/02/poli ... ern-pride/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... erate-flag
That article doesn't make much sense to me. But then I don't expect philosophical thought when it comes to group identities.

N867DA wrote:
In 2020 Confederate flags or symbols on someone's private property tracks very closely with some pretty interesting socioeconomic views. The "muh heritage" argument was pretty weak but those flags are cropping up in northern Michigan, New York, Oregon...all over the place. It's almost like the flag isn't just about heritage or something.

Can you expand on the socioeconomic views?

Tugger wrote:
Well, the important things is they could still look down on slaves! Sure they were poor, with broken homes and little chance to rise in their society, but they could attack, blame, spit on, whatever, them and know they as poor white laborers were still better than slaves.... That is where this all began, where the mentality that still persists somehow today, started. People feel superior to others and empowered to think less of others for no reason beyond the color of ones skin.
Tugg

Speaking of those people who support the confederate flag for whom what you say applies:
It's a universal principle. The vegan likes to look down on the vegetarian. Why do big business jets exist? Why do people spend so much on a car?
Comparison with others is human nature. Isn't it natural that those at the bottom need something to be proud of? What can be done to make these people feel a bit better about themselves?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:30 pm

Sokes wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well, the important things is they could still look down on slaves! Sure they were poor, with broken homes and little chance to rise in their society, but they could attack, blame, spit on, whatever, them and know they as poor white laborers were still better than slaves.... That is where this all began, where the mentality that still persists somehow today, started. People feel superior to others and empowered to think less of others for no reason beyond the color of ones skin.
Tugg

Speaking of those people who support the confederate flag for whom what you say applies:
It's a universal principle. The vegan likes to look down on the vegetarian. Why do big business jets exist? Why do people spend so much on a car?
Comparison with others is human nature. Isn't it natural that those at the bottom need something to be proud of? What can be done to make these people feel a bit better about themselves?

Yes! Exactly! Being racist and oppressing people is perfectly normal! Just being human! So it is therefore OK .... Just be white. Why not accept that the majority, all us white folk, just naturally look down on those with different color skin, why is that a problem?

.... I assume, Sokes, that is what you are trying to say. Because that is essentially what it appears you are saying with that post. And know this is not an attack on you, I a merely trying to hold up a mirror on what you are saying so you can see what others may be seeing. You are probably not intending that but that is what I am seeing at least.

And regarding the "dividing" part of your post I didn't quote. Division is exactly what the ad is about, what it is pointing out for Republicans because the reality is that the Republican party IS divided by Trump. This is clearly identified by Mattis' statement that was published (and is the title of another thread here). Trump sadly has chosen to be a divisive president. Maybe he didn't "choose", maybe it is just who he is, but from what I have seen of his business style in years prior, this is how he operates, how he achieves his success. He divides (and conquers). Which is of course a well known tactic throughout history. Unfortunately it does not do very well for a leader at the position of President of the United States.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
tommy1808
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:25 am

Sokes wrote:
This video claims to support unity, when it really tries to divide. Let's not discuss economic policies or healthcare. Let's discuss flags!


It's the flag of an defeated enemy, after a serious attempt of destroying the United States of America. Every single person under that flag, from general down to the old lady mending holes in Uniforms, was a traitor. In the legal, capital crime sense of it.
Those folks are flying essentially the flag of ISIS oder Al Kaida when they display it.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:39 pm

Rule number 1. Politics is always self-serving.

It doesn't count as a "brave statement" if it is a statement designed to get more money and power for oneself!!

Excuse me if I do not cry for the Mitt Romney / Hillary Clinton / Bush wing of the Establishment. Boomers who have been running things for 40 years, controlling most every government bureau and corporation. Suddenly they are "marginalized" and "brave?" Spare me.
 
Sokes
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:52 pm

Tugger wrote:
.. Why not accept that the majority, all us white folk, just naturally look down on those with different color skin, why is that a problem?
...
Trump sadly has chosen to be a divisive president. Maybe he didn't "choose", maybe it is just who he is, but from what I have seen of his business style in years prior, this is how he operates, how he achieves his success. He divides (and conquers). Which is of course a well known tactic throughout history. Unfortunately it does not do very well for a leader at the position of President of the United States.

Tugg

One divides and rules others, not one's own people.
Does Trump divide the society or is the society divided and Trump is a symptom? Or maybe both?

I agree with you that white supremacy is a shitty ideology. I also agree that the flag has a problematic history. I speak more of the reaction to the civil rights movement in the 50s/ 60s than of the civil war. But will criticism of the flag help?

I was at a theater play of my son’s school. The beautiful prince was quite dark skinned. My first emotion was “That doesn’t fit. ”. I immediately felt embarrassed. I earlier thought I’m free from racism. It’s also quite ironic as I’m married to an Indian and my son is mixed.
In an agricultural society with high birth rates being friendly to strangers doesn’t work. They may take over your land. So suspicion and hostility had an evolutionary advantage.
Realistic, paranoid and distrustful European Jews had a better chance of survival during Hitler’s rule. Those who were trustful didn't emigrate and got killed.
In short: I believe there is a genetic component to not trusting others. If the economy goes well environment dominates. If people’s expectations are not met many need a scapegoat.

Is outrage and anger the appropriate reaction towards racists? Thanks to our discussion I reread
Booker T. Washington’s “Up from slavery”:
“Great man cultivate love, and that only little man cherish a spirit of hatred. I learned that assistance given to the weak makes the one who gives it strong; and the oppression of the unfortunate makes one weak.
...
I pitty from the bottom of my heart any individual who is so unfortunate as to get into the habit of holding race prejudice.”
Chapter “Making their beds before they could lie on them”

“In my early life I held a feeling of ill will towards anyone who spoke in bitter terms against the negro...
Now whenever I hear any one advocating measures that are meant to curtail the development of another, I pity the individual who would do this. I know that the one who does this mistake does so because of his own lack of opportunity for the highest kind of growth.”
Chapter “Two thousand miles for a five minute speech”

“In my contact with people I find that, as a rule, it is only the little, narrow people who live for themselves, who never read good books, who do not travel, who never open up their souls in a way to permit them to come into contact with other souls-with the great outside world. No man whose vision is bounded by color can come into contact with what is highest and best in the world. In meeting men, in many places, I have found that the happiest people are those who do the most for others, the most miserable are those who do the least. I have also found that few things, if any, are capable of making one so blind and narrow as race prejudice.”
Chapter “The Atlanta exposition address”

Racism is part of human nature. Not everybody suffers from it, but then which weakness applies to all equally? If 80% of whites accept black people, a black man is advised to not take the role of a victim and instead feel compassion for those blinded by prejudice. To get upset when 80% cooperate will just fill the black man with unnecessary bitterness.

Image
source: https://www.orthocuban.com/2016/10/11211/


But then I don’t assume the majority of those with confederate flag are racist. People have several layers of identity.
I have to assume now:
Towards foreigners a Texan with confederate flag likes to be American, towards Americans from the North he likes to be from the South and towards somebody from a neighboring state a Texan. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a further subdivision within Texas. Some people in Bavaria have this subdivision.
Is somebody who honors the US flag supportive of 19th century treatment of Native Americans? You may argue the flag has changed since then, but nothing has changed concerning basic design which is stars and stripes.
By the way: the confederate flag was square, not rectangular with unequal sides.

Coming back to B.T. Washington:
His school needed a new building as a boarding for girls. It was a very ambitious project for him at that time.
"We decided to call the proposed building Alabama Hall, in honour of the state in which we were labouring."
chapter: "Raising money"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U7ZgCMLjHc&t=7m22s
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
alfa164
Posts: 3450
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:41 am

Sokes wrote:
Does Trump divide the society or is the society divided and Trump is a symptom? Or maybe both?


That is an easy question to answer: Trump divides because that is how he riles-up his base. He doesn't care about the country or its people; he only cares anout "winning".


Sokes wrote:
Racism is part of human nature. Not everybody suffers from it...


If "not everybody suffers from it", then it is not a part of human nature: it is taught to and ingrained into impressionable people by the dregs of our society. There is no excuse for it.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Sokes
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:08 am

I feel backward to post a nine minutes video. But this is one of the great moments of mankind, so I do it. It's the video from my last post. One has to watch at least from after two minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U7ZgCMLjHc&t=1m59s

By the way: Gandhi pretty much worked only with symbolic actions, the salt march being his greatest example.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
KFTG
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:44 am

Many mistakes made during reconstruction. Primarily not executing -all- former Confederate military officers and government officials.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:26 pm

So the latest ad dropped and it is a pretty good one:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 67211.html
It starts with Mr Graham saying “I want to talk to the Trump supporters for a minute”, before he asks: “What is Donald Trump’s campaign about?”

“He’s a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot,” the senator says. “You know how you make America great again? Tell Donald Trump to go to hell.”

The ad then cuts to glowing praise of Mr Biden from the Republican senator, who says: “If you can’t admire Joe Biden as a person then there’s probably — you’ve got a problem.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5Xpwyd4aMM

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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casinterest
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:28 pm

Tugger wrote:
So the latest ad dropped and it is a pretty good one:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 67211.html
It starts with Mr Graham saying “I want to talk to the Trump supporters for a minute”, before he asks: “What is Donald Trump’s campaign about?”

“He’s a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot,” the senator says. “You know how you make America great again? Tell Donald Trump to go to hell.”

The ad then cuts to glowing praise of Mr Biden from the Republican senator, who says: “If you can’t admire Joe Biden as a person then there’s probably — you’ve got a problem.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5Xpwyd4aMM

Tugg


That's definitely a great commercial.


For some reason this was the next one on my list , made in march of 2016. Still applies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg0pO9VG1J8
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12763
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:36 am

The new one is also quite nice......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVy_LWM091g

So.. Bidens age is a problem, but Trump can´t even hold a glas of water with one hand. Or walk. Or form sentences.....

Biden should just challenge Trump to a run.....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2626
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:56 am

Tugger wrote:
So the latest ad dropped and it is a pretty good one:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 67211.html
It starts with Mr Graham saying “I want to talk to the Trump supporters for a minute”, before he asks: “What is Donald Trump’s campaign about?”

“He’s a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot,” the senator says. “You know how you make America great again? Tell Donald Trump to go to hell.”

The ad then cuts to glowing praise of Mr Biden from the Republican senator, who says: “If you can’t admire Joe Biden as a person then there’s probably — you’ve got a problem.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5Xpwyd4aMM

Tugg


That is actually a fairly interesting development.


From trump's original primary?
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
BN747
Posts: 7721
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Re: Lincoln Project Ad - Americans Must Choose 'America'

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:
The new one is also quite nice......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVy_LWM091g

So.. Bidens age is a problem, but Trump can´t even hold a glas of water with one hand. Or walk. Or form sentences.....

Biden should just challenge Trump to a run.....

best regards
Thomas


They get better with each release...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuAHz4i3_x8

Chyna.

How stupid we look now ..but the Chinese saw it on Day One. I'd say Russia too but they knew it when he came to them begging for money in the 1990s.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson

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