Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
stl07
Topic Author
Posts: 2372
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:37 am

I was wondering what your opinions were on unpaid internships. I have always been positive about them as they give work experience to someone without any qualifications and my first real job was an unpaid internship. But recently, somebody told me that an unpaid internship, if you think about it, is also just free labour/slavery.

Discuss
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12911
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:43 am

stl07 wrote:
I was wondering what your opinions were on unpaid internships. I have always been positive about them as they give work experience to someone without any qualifications and my first real job was an unpaid internship. But recently, somebody told me that an unpaid internship, if you think about it, is also just free labour/slavery.

Discuss


I´d say "it depends".

Short internship, where is more a get to know each other and the field. Unpaid is fine.
Long internship, where the intern actually gets work done, nope.

Which happens to be the legal situation here: up to 3 month, fine, beyond that: up to half a million EUR in fines.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8026
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:08 am

stl07 wrote:
is also just free labour/slavery.

Discuss


It may be free labor, but it is not slavery.

The intern receives an agreed upon benefit for the labor he performs. Experience, networking, positioning for entry-level, etc. The intern is getting something.

But I do agree with Tommy, unpaid internships should be for a short, defined time.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
IH8BY
Posts: 775
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:39 pm

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:45 am

In my opinion internships (longer than a few days' "work experience") should be paid, even if it's only covering living and travelling expenses. Unpaid internships benefit the wealthy and privileged, who already have better access to jobs and education. I don't think you need to be a card-carrying communist to recognise that this favours family financial means over actual ability or benefit. If you're from a low-income family, no matter how able you might be, you wouldn't be able to do, say, a three month internship in London with no pay. Pretty much all the people I know who did internships either had their parents bankroll their rent and/or travel, or lived very close to where the jobs were (which itself required them to be wealthy).

As a consequence, you potentially miss out on exceptionally able candidates, but you also reinforce the cultural and socioeconomic homogeneity of workplaces.
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11993
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:37 am

I personally do not - work is work. That said my organization has them and I administer them - but do not enjoy it.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:50 am

stl07 wrote:
I was wondering what your opinions were on unpaid internships. I have always been positive about them as they give work experience to someone without any qualifications and my first real job was an unpaid internship. But recently, somebody told me that an unpaid internship, if you think about it, is also just free labour/slavery.

Discuss


It's just another example of the eternal slide in wages and conditions in the favour of the employers.

They are not just for those without any qualifications, they have been used for those fully qualified in their respective industry (in the Aviation industry it's called Pay to Fly).

It doesn't necessarily lead to full time employment.

It may go on for a ridiculous amount of time, months, which is far more than what is needed for whatever reason the internship is used for.

It is of course unpaid work for the employer, encouraging their maximum use. There are even examples of employers charging students for access to an internship.

The funny thing is non-university trained students in trades and vocational fields perform apprenticeships, which are better paid and lead to more secure employment. Whilst Internships for university trained students have worse pay and security. It's actually those who didn't go to university who have won out in this respect.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11652
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:27 pm

Internships related to school, fine if unpaid or below minimum wage. It cost a lot of time (=money) to give the intern the appropriate attention in. order for him/her to learn from his/her experience.
If someone already have a qualification, I would say no, they should be paid.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 8370
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:33 pm

Internships as part of a course and a means to have a first hand look at how the field works: I'd be OK with unpaid, provided it's not an excessive burden on the intern and they don't "work" like a full time person.

Paid, however, seems to be the best path forward. You don't have to pay them as a entry-level employee, but at the very least, pay them something. Intangible benefits (like networking) may or may not pay off so for the short term paying them a fraction of an entry level can ensure that if the employee delivers, they'll want to come back.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
cpd
Posts: 6379
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:33 pm

fr8mech wrote:
stl07 wrote:
is also just free labour/slavery.

Discuss


It may be free labor, but it is not slavery.

The intern receives an agreed upon benefit for the labor he performs. Experience, networking, positioning for entry-level, etc. The intern is getting something.

But I do agree with Tommy, unpaid internships should be for a short, defined time.


Exactly right, short time, a fairly skilled intern does some work with a vague promise of some potential benefit at the end, gets turfed out, next intern in, repeat multiple times.

If you do it right, you might not even need to have a heap of paid staff!

Sarcasm aside, I’d prefer to pay the intern. Maybe not at the full rate of normal staff, but I still believe if they are doing some work of value, they deserve to be paid for it.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15124
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:23 pm

The government agency law department I work in has, even now remotely, an unpaid 'summer intern' program of those who have completed their 1st or 2nd year of law schools usually in the NYC metro area. They do get 'commuting' costs compensated and they last about 8 weeks. The program has shrunken from 15 several years ago to 6 this year. They usually do research memos and projects on various legal issues, in normal times go with attorneys to court, sit in with depositions, observe non-litigation transaction work, get visits to agency facilities (this year virtually). For the participants it is about getting some 'real life' work experience, for us, it is for public relations, to encourage future lawyers to consider working with us or in public sector/government agencies and diversity of participants is very important.
We also used to have full-time paid legal interns in our Litigation area, 2nd & 3rd year law students but that program was phased out this year shifting to full time paralegals for cost and continuity reasons. Compensation also included tuition subsidies and full medical benefits. They did minor court appearances, process document requests,assist attorneys with prep and e-filing of court documents. The paralegals can do most of that as a government agency.

Some industries, in particular entertainment and broadcasting have a long and exploitative history of unpaid interns. Too often unpaid interns were and still are subject to sexual and other harassment and abuses, too often participants get the jobs from internal employee, political and rich parents or 'friends' and diversity tended to be token. Often they do 'get coffee' work, sometimes they get to do real but grunt work, cover for employees on vacation.

I disagree with most unpaid internships. If you do work, you should get paid at least the minimum wage, as many need money for school, life expenses, to limit amounts of student loan borrowings, have a diversity in opportunity for participants and limit exploitation.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2901
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:26 pm

Yes. Both of my internships were unpaid, but were more than rewarding in the experience I earned. As a college student with no experience, one of my greatest tools was being able to offer my labor for free in exchange for work experience. Now, there can certainly be abuse of the use of unpaid interns, and that should of course be stopped, but otherwise my experiences were great.
 
bhill
Posts: 1804
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:28 pm

I was an intern looong ago when starting out in Biomedical Engineering...the hospital I interned at gave me free meals and parking. Look, you go into a program that uses internship eyes wide open...it is a extension of the classroom/lab, if you do not care for it...don't enroll in curricula that require it.
Carpe Pices
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:56 pm

In my field, aerospace engineering, all internships are paid. Mainly because companies are using internships as a tool to recruit the best and brightest they can in an engineering field. Its just so competitive that if you're not doing this, you're losing out on the top talent. In these cases, companies are spending money to recruit. And you are definitely tasked with deliverables - and measured against what you do produce. In my experience, the lower pay, the short duration and the ability of a young engineer to produce the results all align with if you had paid an experienced engineer a higher salary to produce the same amount of work in about 1/3rd the time it was done by the intern. So in that sense, the pay is adequate - the intern gains experience and if they are successful get a leg up on a future job. Win Win Win for everyone.

I think I have seen unpaid internships used in fields where the on the job training is really more of a learning sessions for the student and is required for them to complete the schooling. Ie a residency by a med student or a physical therapist having to do clinicals in different offices across the country. This is more of a - you are required to do this to graduate, and you aren't really expecting to get recruited by the office/hospital you do your residency with. I am projecting a little bit here as I am not as familiar with the fields, just have a couple minor exposures from family members who have done clinicals. In these cases their room and expenses were covered, just didn't acquire anything in addition to that in the form of extra pay beyond those essential items.

I will say, in either case, the experience you gain is far more valuable than any pay you could get. So long as you take the internship seriously and apply yourself. I've only come across one intern who chose not to apply themselves in my entire career and suffice to say they did not get an offer of employment contingent upon graduation after the internship was over.

So any of you out there looking to get a job - apply yourself. It could just be the difference between getting a job in a tough job market or not.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3508
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:54 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
In my field, aerospace engineering, all internships are paid. Mainly because companies are using internships as a tool to recruit the best and brightest they can in an engineering field. Its just so competitive that if you're not doing this, you're losing out on the top talent. In these cases, companies are spending money to recruit. And you are definitely tasked with deliverables - and measured against what you do produce. In my experience, the lower pay, the short duration and the ability of a young engineer to produce the results all align with if you had paid an experienced engineer a higher salary to produce the same amount of work in about 1/3rd the time it was done by the intern. So in that sense, the pay is adequate - the intern gains experience and if they are successful get a leg up on a future job. Win Win Win for everyone.

I think I have seen unpaid internships used in fields where the on the job training is really more of a learning sessions for the student and is required for them to complete the schooling. Ie a residency by a med student or a physical therapist having to do clinicals in different offices across the country. This is more of a - you are required to do this to graduate, and you aren't really expecting to get recruited by the office/hospital you do your residency with. I am projecting a little bit here as I am not as familiar with the fields, just have a couple minor exposures from family members who have done clinicals. In these cases their room and expenses were covered, just didn't acquire anything in addition to that in the form of extra pay beyond those essential items.

I will say, in either case, the experience you gain is far more valuable than any pay you could get. So long as you take the internship seriously and apply yourself. I've only come across one intern who chose not to apply themselves in my entire career and suffice to say they did not get an offer of employment contingent upon graduation after the internship was over.

So any of you out there looking to get a job - apply yourself. It could just be the difference between getting a job in a tough job market or not.


EE myself. Unpaid internship is almost unheard of in any engineering field as there are so many different companies looking for talents.

Of course, CS (Computer Science) is even crazier as often companies are competing for talents against the like of FAANG (plus Microsoft).
 
DTVG
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:24 pm

Unpaid internships are great to get experience and I think making them unpaid makes it somewhat of a less risky endeavor for the employer. This can benefits both sides, as the firm may be more willing to give a young student a shot.

In the end, however, I think it is about supply and demand and the industry you work in. In some European countries where you have an oversupply of graduates you get next to nothing, while in other countries they pay you quite. Same principle for industries: data scientist or finance interns in specialized roles are paid quite nicely, whereas other areas pay less.
As the oversupply seems to be getting worse and worse, the more I see students hanging on to underpaid 12 month internships without the prospect of a full time position.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:50 pm

DTVG wrote:
Unpaid internships are great to get experience and I think making them unpaid makes it somewhat of a less risky endeavor for the employer. This can benefits both sides, as the firm may be more willing to give a young student a shot.

In the end, however, I think it is about supply and demand and the industry you work in. In some European countries where you have an oversupply of graduates you get next to nothing, while in other countries they pay you quite. Same principle for industries: data scientist or finance interns in specialized roles are paid quite nicely, whereas other areas pay less.
As the oversupply seems to be getting worse and worse, the more I see students hanging on to underpaid 12 month internships without the prospect of a full time position.


Exactly, I should have laid this out in my post as well. It really is capitalism at work because a firm will bring in an unpaid intern when they clearly don't need staffing, but maybe if that intern hits it out of the ballpark the firm finds a way to make room on the staff for them. And for that unpaid intern that might be the best way to elevate themselves above their peers. Its all about acquiring talent when you need the talent. Supply and Demand.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13041
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:10 am

Few days for free, OK, few months with some money under the minimum wage, OK for teens, aside from that, minimum wage is, well, the minimum. You can argue the "employee" is not good enough to warrant being paid minimum wage, but then there is a problem in what minimum wage should be for : work that needs little training.

In France we also have vocational training where you're part time at school part time at work, pay is a bit less than minimum wage, but if you do it for a few years you end up above, and then get a job with a decend salary out of it, usually.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7245
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:20 am

I support unpaid internships as long as they source their talent locally so they have an easier time commuting.

I've done both paid and unpaid internships and I have to say I enjoyed the unpaid one at the Metropolitan Transit Authority of Harris County (Texas) than I did my paid one at Southwest Airlines. Metros interns were all from the Houston area so in a way it helped weed out applicants that were in "name brand" schools. Few people outside of Texas have heard of the schools my fellow interns and I attended and of course there were some from the big schools like UH and A&M. It also helps that i got selected for the internship that I wanted. In fact Metro even called me with a job offer shortly after I moved to Denver to be a CSA for Southwest. In hindsight I should've accepted.

My Southwest internship was a total contrast to Metro. There was more snobbiness from the other interns (dont get me wrong I still made friends there), I did not mesh well with my team at all, and I had no interest in what I did (I applied to 17 internships at WN based on if I thought I was remotely qualified since I was 6 months from graduation).
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Do you support unpaid internships or not?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:53 am

In my country they are effectively illegal without a connection to an authorised education and training course. This is a good thing.
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MaverickM11, mmo and 58 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos