rfields5421 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

They can spend their money however they want. You're not back to square one if they waste it, they are and it's their choice.

What I'm hearing from black leaders and Democrats who support reparations is that the purpose is to compensate, and LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD for blacks. The purpose of any payments is to provide a method to lift the economic disadvantages of racism. Cash won't do that.

The people need to be able to change their level of employment and future incomes.

In 1890, fully 45% of the workers in the US earned below $500 per year. Today, working at minimum age is an average of about $15,000 per year. We all know that is far below the amount needed to support a single person, much less a family.

When is enough going to be enough to level the playing field? Affirmative action was supposed to level the playing field I guess it hasn't. Reparations won't either. I am not going to argue that there isn't issues systemically the legal system and the police for sure. But how about personal responsibility for one..I keep harping on this but liberals do not want to hear it..It is always someone else's fault and especially the fault of the white man.. There was a video I saw of Denzel Washington giving an interview he said the problem isn't the system the problem is at home and mainly single parent no father households mothers working making little money and kids with no direction and he is exactly right. By the time a black man gets into the system it is way too late anyway he was lost before the cops got to him. Until Black Americans stop blaming everyone else and look in the mirror and say what can I do today to be a better person it will never change. Multiple kids by multiple fathers and whites do this too it dooms them to fail. Democrats and activists like Al Sharpton love to keep the blacks in that mindset of being a victim because it benefits them until that changes it will never get better no matter how much money you throw it at. I know plenty of successful black people it can be done companies like mine go out of their way to recruit blacks and other minorities plenty of them at the top levels of the company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0dCvQdt5XI

stratosphere wrote:

It is always someone else's fault and especially the fault of the white man..

Indeed. Very little self initiative. Always fault of someone else, and always someone else "has to pay".
I am still waiting for the OP or anyone else in this thread to open their wallet and put their money where their mouth is.

stratosphere wrote:

he said the problem isn't the system the problem is at home and mainly single parent no father households mothers working making little money and kids with no direction and he is exactly right.

As I mentioned above, that systematic requirement for fathers to not live in the home started back in the late 60's when AFDC housing started. It impacted not only black families, but also poor white families. I see the same patterns in poor whites across small town southern states.

Our 'welfare' system does not try to help FAMILIES. It works to break apart families.

A great many black families are succeeding and doing well. But the views of the police in many places are that ALL blacks are a threat. My son is a bit dark skinned, looks more Hispanic to most people than Asian. Some mistake him for black. He's a bit right wing gun nut, veteran, hunter, red neck. Motorcycle groupie.

But his police friends have told him to never tell a police man that he has a gun in the truck if he is stopped unless his is answering a direct question. His Conceal Carry Permit will come up when they run his driver's license. The last time he was involved in a minor traffic accident, he was thrown against the truck, handcuffed and threatened with being tasered. The supervisor who arrived to assist recognized my son, and chewed the young new cop's butt. Still, it was quite tense for a while.

I understand threats to police, but when I grew up police normally tried to help people. Today, each encounter is a contest to see who intimidates and controls the situation. Sad.

I have no answers, but family and EDUCATION are the keys to getting out of the poverty level.

luckyone wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Jetty wrote:

Don’t forget recent African immigrants. I’m for paying reparations to victims of slavery, but definitely not all blacks: many immigrants from Africa even have forefathers who were involved in the transatlantic slave-trade themselves and they don’t deserve a penny.

I just saw that talking point on right wing media Fox from one of their bleach blonde talking heads. That didn't take long.

Wasn't the nation of Liberia set up by Americans to give a home to former slaves who could not be free here? At the time, that was a better option. But, now, we have laws that are supposed to work for everyone. But obviously do not. Still.

Right wing talking or point or not, I try to call a spade a spade, and as such I would agree with that point. I'll also agree that the laws are not equally enforced. I'm against reparations in general because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube--you can only move forward and do better. I would be particularly against reparations to immigrants because institutional racism or not, they have little to connection to the conditions imposed on former slaves in the United States.

Nobody said anything about African immigrants until the right wing media said something. I know there would be a discussion about that anyway.

This country has made small movements forward by inches to be better for decades. Those small movements also meed fierce resistance and set things back yards. "Segregation now, segregation forever!" and the long lines today at polling places and redlining housing applicants

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/live-u ... YW3ISQB3Q/

Some polling places in urban areas of Georgia experienced major problems. Like consolidating polling places and new voting machines (which can be easily hacked to change votes). I wonder how many legal Americans could not vote and how many of those are Black?

The more change is demanded, the less change actually happens. Maybe we should start with voting? Make it as easy for Blacks in urban areas to vote as Whites in rural America?

Dieuwer wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

It is always someone else's fault and especially the fault of the white man..

Indeed. Very little self initiative. Always fault of someone else, and always someone else "has to pay".
I am still waiting for the OP or anyone else in this thread to open their wallet and put their money where their mouth is.

Whites have been making the rules in this country and enforcing the laws (whether they exist or not) for years. Remember there were lynchings because "that black boy was looking at my white daughter" and "that black man refused to give up his seat" and "that black man refused to leave the lunch counter" and "that black man wanted to vote" because it is always someone else's fault for wanting equal rights.

Then, when someone takes a knee during the national anthem they are doing it wrong and when they raise a black gloved hand they are doing it wrong and when they turn their back on an elected official in public they are doing it wrong and when they hold a sign they are doing it wrong and when they shout at the top of their lungs they are doing it wrong and when they vote they are doing it wrong and people march because a white guy gets a six month suspended sentence for rape but a black man gets death for allegedly passing a fake check.

And you wonder why people are angry that not all Americans are treated equally.........

anrec80 wrote:

Speaking of mitigation - let's look at root cause, which is (largely at least). It is presence of communities with weak education, drugs, crime, etc. And such disadvantaged communities (ethnic neighborhoods, small towns) exist all over the country and aren't specific to Blacks - some of them are predominantly white, some Asian, some South-American. And they are plagued by problems that can't be fixed by money windfalls. These communities need to be rid of drugs..

Let us stop this nonsense of blacks and drugs. Black drug consumption is NOT higher than it is in other communities. The problem is over policing and our gestapo tactics that they use. Even now that marijuana is being legalized to some degree young black men are still being arrested for having small quantities. Police are forced to meet arrest quotas and they do so with this pattern of over arrests. Black men in general, and poor black men in particular suffer severe stigmatization, and having a criminal record becomes a virtual death sentence.

Hard drugs are now more problematic in poor white communities. We need to speak based on the facts instead of on myths that have been discredited.

caribny wrote:

Let us stop this nonsense of blacks and drugs. Black drug consumption is NOT higher than it is in other communities. The problem is over policing and our gestapo tactics that they use. Even now that marijuana is being legalized to some degree young black men are still being arrested for having small quantities. Police are forced to meet arrest quotas and they do so with this pattern of over arrests. Black men in general, and poor black men in particular suffer severe stigmatization, and having a criminal record becomes a virtual death sentence.

Hard drugs are now more problematic in poor white communities. We need to speak based on the facts instead of on myths that have been discredited.

Which is exactly what I am saying above - these problems aren't specific to Blacks people only.

Not sure why all the emphasis on slavery, which is subjected to all sorts of arguments up to and including the fact that most whites weren't directly involved in it. How about compensation for Jim Crow and for redlining and other discriminatory policies of the Federal gov't? There are still many living who directly or indirectly suffered. Discriminatory polices by the Feds also resulted in thousands of acres of black farm lands lost. Clearly most whites benefitted, and most of the blacks to be compensated will be native born. These behaviors existed well into the 1970s, and to a degree even into the 80s, so tons of people can prove injury.

And the problem with your analogy is that the people responsible for slavery are long dead. The Federal gov't, which allowed Jim Crow and promoted redlining and other discriminatory programs, is still very much alive. There have been numerous analyses of the discriminatory application of the GI bill which was of tremendous help to whites, but which mainly excluded blacks.

This is not about writing a check to anyone. Its about developing programs targeted towards blacks, who can prove a grandparent born in the USA (so removing all the "why should Jamaicans, Haitians and Nigerians benefit"). These to improve the human and physical capital of blacks, especially poor blacks, and to better integrate them into the economy. Clearly massive transformations of the criminal justice system (where most of the explicit racism currently exists in the USA) has to be done, in addition to programs to address implicit bias.

Implicit bias is the reason why blacks and whites disagree to the extent of racism being a major factor. Whites claim that they dont purposefully set out to hurt blacks, or to exclude them? So then insist that whatever racism that does still exist is minimal and confined to a few bad apples. But when they recruit do they cast a net wide enough to include candidates from diverse sources? When they decide who to recruit to they have in mind a white male with a suburban background and an Ivy League degree? And yes we also have problems with whites who come from the "wrong side of the tracks".

anrec80 wrote:

caribny wrote:

Let us stop this nonsense of blacks and drugs. Black drug consumption is NOT higher than it is in other communities. The problem is over policing and our gestapo tactics that they use. Even now that marijuana is being legalized to some degree young black men are still being arrested for having small quantities. Police are forced to meet arrest quotas and they do so with this pattern of over arrests. Black men in general, and poor black men in particular suffer severe stigmatization, and having a criminal record becomes a virtual death sentence.

Hard drugs are now more problematic in poor white communities. We need to speak based on the facts instead of on myths that have been discredited.

Which is exactly what I am saying above - these problems aren't specific to Blacks people only.

Racism continues to be a problem which impacts blacks. Drug abuse is not a factor in this. THAT was my point.

vc10 wrote:

I know this is an American topic , but I thought i would add my 2 cents worth. It would seem that people of African descent in the USA and in the UK are constantly talking about slavery as if they are the only people who have suffered but probably that neither they , or their parents or grandparents have any experience of being a slave thank goodness. Now they might have suffered and perhaps still do from the racism that followed the end of slavery, but many people of different ethnic backgrounds whose skin is white suffered discrimination too. Now slavery has been part of man kinds history for a very long time

Roman empire [400 years] It is estimated over this period there was approximately 200 million slaves obtained from across the empire

Middle ages [500 years] Slaves were another source of wealth and mainly obtained from northern Europe. Dublin was a Viking city and was considered the
slave capital of Europe. St Patrick himself was a slave initially taken from Wales

Arab slave trade These traders took about 6 million Africans into slavery over about 600 years

Barbery pirates From the north coast of Africa, took it is estimated between 1 and 1.25 million slaves from the coast line of Spain, France and Italy
Indeed they also raided the coastlines of Ireland and south west England and the village of Baltimore in Ireland had every person
killed or taken as a slave, and there are other example

Atlantic trade slavery Over about 350 years about 12 million slaves were transported to to the Americas and that is north, south, America and the
Caribbean

Now these are Terrible figures and i would imagine there are more examples around the world, but most communities have moved on and this is what should happen today whilst not forgetting the history, which no one can alter and from which the vast majority of the world did not benefit from

You cannot look to who and what the descendants of enslaved peoples involved in the transatlantic slave trade are without reference to this fact. We are a completely new people almost totally disconnected from our past, and in fact we dont even know what it is, or where we are from (Africa isnt a country). We are what evolved out of the slave plantations, and mines and factories of the Americas. Every aspect of these people's lives have been impacted by the experience that their ancestors went through, both during enslavement, and its aftermath.

You cannot equate more ancient forms of slavery with that of a much more recent period. I actually knew a woman whose grandfather was a slave, and whose grandmother was illegally snatched from West Africa after the slave trade was supposed to have ended. The slave trade ended in 1807 and slavery itself ended in the British colonies in 1838. Its that recent. I am 63, so not ancient.

The slavery connected to the Barbary pirates is over blown. Where are the descendants of those peoples? As powerful as the European powers were vs. those of North Africa, I doubt that it was the issue that some claim it to be.

The Trans Sahara and Trans Indian Ocean slavery is also relevant, but unlike the Americas (and Europe as Caribbean immigrants arrived) those people aren't empowered to advocate for their rights. We periodically get glimpses of what those people endure, but insufficient for it to rise to a level of global concern.

Black Americans are a foundational peoples of the USA, together with the Native Americans, and descendants of British/Dutch/German settlers, and of course those from what are now the border states. Without black Americans, the USA would be a very different place. Most contemporary black Americans are descended from peoples who arrived before those of most white Americans, so there is no "go back where you come from". The USA is also the global media giant, so anything that happens here quickly transmits elsewhere, the global protests around George Floyd are indicators of this. As a result black Americans are one of the most visible groups of nonwhites on this planet.

Now who cares, or even knows about the descendants of Arab slavery who live in Morocco, the Arab peninsular, or India?

And btw its not just blacks in the USA and the UK who are involved in demands for reparation. Caribbean gov'ts (except the DR and Cuba) make such demands out of Europe and its certainly a question which pops up in France, to the extent that such discussions are allowed. In France it is "racist" to talk of racism, so less is spoken of it than in the USA, or the UK which recognize a multicultural identity.

Now I say all of this despite the fact that I am not sold on the idea of reparations as I dont see that it will succeed.

caribny wrote:

Not sure why all the emphasis on slavery, which is subjected to all sorts of arguments up to and including the fact that most whites weren't directly involved in it.

In a nutshell, that's it.

I've read all these post and it appears to me that many view the call to this action is not warranted...because their take on this like discussing some video game or some none-human related occurrence.

I've thought for years which was worse - the genocide and stolen lands of Native Americans Or the horrific history of enslaved Blacks in America.

The Slavery chapter of American history is by far the worst...and this is why.

Both were shredded of dignity and rampant violence from the start and it has an unspeakable legacy that most cannot look at for any length of time before being compelled to turn away.

First off, Slavery in ancient Rome, the Mediterranean cultures, African warring tribes, the Arab campaign of internationalizing of the practice...all horrible but have zero impact on America past or present.
Where is today's pall from slavery in all those cultures that some have posted here in a feeble effort to say 'it was everywhere'? How does any of those old world places measure up against the American dilemma?

None can.

Reparations is being discussed because of what was done to millions of human beings to get this country started.
They brought here after brutal capture and caging in Africa - local Africans helped by way of European bribes (appealing to greed) and or by the barrel of guns/canons - 'either go find us some or we'll take you'.
Humans had to lie prone - for 3 months, next another body, in their excrement, their urine, their after birth, their menstrual flow, their vomit, their blood, their sweat and stench at levels no one here could tolerate for 1 minute - they did it for 3 months...if they survived the beatings, rapes and torture occurring on board from sailors, prisoners who were far from sober most of the time lording over 'animals in which they could do what they wished and at will.

Once here, they were stripped of their culture, their language, stripped of everything that made them African.

They were then rebuilt into an American subservient breed of human designed to labor and be of service after being sold after their cargo journey.

Everything the Native Americans endured...the enslaved Black endured PLUS and Worse. Only the NAs were allowed allotted lands (their own land) to live out their lives and retain their heritage.
But still ostracized (which many obviously preferred)

They were deprived of family, could not be educated under threat of death - so intentionally and deliberately kept ignorant of ways in this new Hell on Earth...while being preached the Bible.

The African American is the TRUE American, he was striped of everything and rebuilt in America's image of him - good and bad...he is ALL American, America created him.

Some will pause to say "well it was different back then"... no it wasn't. It was as acceptable then as we tolerate wealthy residents in the Middle East import Filipinos and other Asians to be servants and workers their own people refuse to do because they are aware of the mistreatment of these people. They rape those women and their children and I'm sure some men suffer it as well...the stories are everywhere. And I haven't mentioned the actual sexual slave trade, but we had Jeffrey Epstein pulling it off right here in America, he smartly involved the highest politically connected and wealthy and held it over their heads...while escaping prosecution for years...until recently.

Back to the dark past, a president found it easier take advantage of his position of power over enslaved women...so if a principled man as Jefferson could do this with ease, what was expected of a scrawny insecure male-master wielding power over his inherited plantation of slaves or his opposite, the slovenly corpulent drunkard brute of a slave owner and their weekly if not nightly crashing of the slave quarters to take whatever they wanted, even an enslaved man's wife (were he permitted) from his bed, or his daughter or son. There was no end to the depravity.

Angry white wives splashing scalding hot water on a slave maid or child because she's angry after catching her husband returning from a night of 'fun'. Young 'master' boys coming of age taking liberty with the cook, the maid or their kids because he could - they knew a word against them was none existent.

There were millions of people like Thomas Paine who torpedoed his friendship with prominent founding fathers by pointing out how wrong, unjust and inhumane this world was. Jefferson, Washington and others heard Paine's message (and others) clearly and could have changed it instantly, but the tidal wave of money, privilege would be a herculean task of nearly impossible odds..they found it easier to let 'future others' deal with it.

So yeah, the 'that's the way those days were.." doesn't cut it. Millions of Abolitionist vocalized opposition to this obvious wrong, ...so everyone knew right from right, but the law said it was legal.

Until the Civil War.

But the act correct wrongs, Reconstruction - a weak attempt to correct some of the inequalities, was kind in thought but poorly executed and fizzled as people got tired of the issue and let the south have their way.

That History has a shadow that lives on to this very day.

When the world saw George Floyd lynched by an agent of the world's most envied system of laws - police of the American Laws, up and close and personal all at once - lynching a handcuffed defenseless man....It connected - globally.

The internet caused this global reaction. Any gamer knows that these young people are connected with each other worldwide. They are in constant communication with each other, sharing their ideas, feelings and thoughts. And most of them good people with a sense of fairness and a desire for justice - everywhere.

But Reparations, if you are white you have benefited from the institutionalized racism which the founders intended - whether you want that benefit or not it is extended to you by default. You can't help whether you are born one race or another nor did anyone alive today have anything to do with that horrid past.

But that Past needs to be redressed. Once dealt with head on..then everyone (in America) can move forward for once and for all. If not..this Sinclair Lewis quote cannot be avoided.

"Those Who Make Peaceful Revolution Impossible...Will Make Violent Revolution Inevitable."

George Floyd's death is a direct to link to the mindset of Enslaved America, your life means just as much as your ancestors - absolutely nothing. A lot of Americans still carry on the mentality or some residuals to those thoughts, we see it daily now as people are expressing their opinions and losing jobs over it.

BN747

BN747 wrote:

caribny wrote:

Not sure why all the emphasis on slavery, which is subjected to all sorts of arguments up to and including the fact that most whites weren't directly involved in it.

In a nutshell, that's it.

I've read all these post and it appears to me that many view the call to this action is not warranted...because their take on this like discussing some video game or some none-human related occurrence.

I've thought for years which was worse - the genocide and stolen lands of Native Americans Or the horrific history of enslaved Blacks in America.

The Slavery chapter of American history is by far the worst...and this is why.

Both were shredded of dignity and rampant violence from the start and it has an unspeakable legacy that most cannot look at for any length of time before being compelled to turn away.

First off, Slavery in ancient Rome, the Mediterranean cultures, African warring tribes, the Arab campaign of internationalizing of the practice...all horrible but have zero impact on America past or present.
Where is today's pall from slavery in all those cultures that some have posted here in a feeble effort to say 'it was everywhere'? How does any of those old world places measure up against the American dilemma?

None can.

Reparations is being discussed because of what was done to millions of human beings to get this country started.
They brought here after brutal capture and caging in Africa - local Africans helped by way of European bribes (appealing to greed) and or by the barrel of guns/canons - 'either go find us some or we'll take you'.
Humans had to lie prone - for 3 months, next another body, in their excrement, their urine, their after birth, their menstrual flow, their vomit, their blood, their sweat and stench at levels no one here could tolerate for 1 minute - they did it for 3 months...if they survived the beatings, rapes and torture occurring on board from sailors, prisoners who were far from sober most of the time lording over 'animals in which they could do what they wished and at will.

Once here, they were stripped of their culture, their language, stripped of everything that made them African.

They were then rebuilt into an American subservient breed of human designed to labor and be of service after being sold after their cargo journey.

Everything the Native Americans endured...the enslaved Black endured PLUS and Worse. Only the NAs were allowed allotted lands (their own land) to live out their lives and retain their heritage.
But still ostracized (which many obviously preferred)

They were deprived of family, could not be educated under threat of death - so intentionally and deliberately kept ignorant of ways in this new Hell on Earth...while being preached the Bible.

The African American is the TRUE American, he was striped of everything and rebuilt in America's image of him - good and bad...he is ALL American, America created him.

Some will pause to say "well it was different back then"... no it wasn't. It was as acceptable then as we tolerate wealthy residents in the Middle East import Filipinos and other Asians to be servants and workers their own people refuse to do because they are aware of the mistreatment of these people. They rape those women and their children and I'm sure some men suffer it as well...the stories are everywhere. And I haven't mentioned the actual sexual slave trade, but we had Jeffrey Epstein pulling it off right here in America, he smartly involved the highest politically connected and wealthy and held it over their heads...while escaping prosecution for years...until recently.

Back to the dark past, a president found it easier take advantage of his position of power over enslaved women...so if a principled man as Jefferson could do this with ease, what was expected of a scrawny insecure male-master wielding power over his inherited plantation of slaves or his opposite, the slovenly corpulent drunkard brute of a slave owner and their weekly if not nightly crashing of the slave quarters to take whatever they wanted, even an enslaved man's wife (were he permitted) from his bed, or his daughter or son. There was no end to the depravity.

Angry white wives splashing scalding hot water on a slave maid or child because she's angry after catching her husband returning from a night of 'fun'. Young 'master' boys coming of age taking liberty with the cook, the maid or their kids because he could - they knew a word against them was none existent.

There were millions of people like Thomas Paine who torpedoed his friendship with prominent founding fathers by pointing out how wrong, unjust and inhumane this world was. Jefferson, Washington and others heard Paine's message (and others) clearly and could have changed it instantly, but the tidal wave of money, privilege would be a herculean task of nearly impossible odds..they found it easier to let 'future others' deal with it.

So yeah, the 'that's the way those days were.." doesn't cut it. Millions of Abolitionist vocalized opposition to this obvious wrong, ...so everyone knew right from right, but the law said it was legal.

Until the Civil War.

But the act correct wrongs, Reconstruction - a weak attempt to correct some of the inequalities, was kind in thought but poorly executed and fizzled as people got tired of the issue and let the south have their way.

That History has a shadow that lives on to this very day.

When the world saw George Floyd lynched by an agent of the world's most envied system of laws - police of the American Laws, up and close and personal all at once - lynching a handcuffed defenseless man....It connected - globally.

The internet caused this global reaction. Any gamer knows that these young people are connected with each other worldwide. They are in constant communication with each other, sharing their ideas, feelings and thoughts. And most of them good people with a sense of fairness and a desire for justice - everywhere.

But Reparations, if you are white you have benefited from the institutionalized racism which the founders intended - whether you want that benefit or not it is extended to you by default. You can't help whether you are born one race or another nor did anyone alive today have anything to do with that horrid past.

But that Past needs to be redressed. Once dealt with head on..then everyone (in America) can move forward for once and for all. If not..this Sinclair Lewis quote cannot be avoided.

"Those Who Make Peaceful Revolution Impossible...Will Make Violent Revolution Inevitable."

George Floyd's death is a direct to link to the mindset of Enslaved America, your life means just as much as your ancestors - absolutely nothing. A lot of Americans still carry on the mentality or some residuals to those thoughts, we see it daily now as people are expressing their opinions and losing jobs over it.

BN747

Well all this tells me is there will never be a solution to this. Reparations certainly won't do it.. There will never be most certainly in my life time and I am sure many generations to come where there will be a level playing field in the eyes of liberals and blacks who listen to them and keep convincing them the white man is keeping them down. I hope Darren Chauvin gets life with no parole not only for killing this man but inciting all the bullshit and destruction that came after it...

stratosphere wrote:

BN747 wrote:

caribny wrote:

Not sure why all the emphasis on slavery, which is subjected to all sorts of arguments up to and including the fact that most whites weren't directly involved in it.

In a nutshell, that's it.

I've read all these post and it appears to me that many view the call to this action is not warranted...because their take on this like discussing some video game or some none-human related occurrence.

I've thought for years which was worse - the genocide and stolen lands of Native Americans Or the horrific history of enslaved Blacks in America.

The Slavery chapter of American history is by far the worst...and this is why.

Both were shredded of dignity and rampant violence from the start and it has an unspeakable legacy that most cannot look at for any length of time before being compelled to turn away.

First off, Slavery in ancient Rome, the Mediterranean cultures, African warring tribes, the Arab campaign of internationalizing of the practice...all horrible but have zero impact on America past or present.
Where is today's pall from slavery in all those cultures that some have posted here in a feeble effort to say 'it was everywhere'? How does any of those old world places measure up against the American dilemma?

None can.

Reparations is being discussed because of what was done to millions of human beings to get this country started.
They brought here after brutal capture and caging in Africa - local Africans helped by way of European bribes (appealing to greed) and or by the barrel of guns/canons - 'either go find us some or we'll take you'.
Humans had to lie prone - for 3 months, next another body, in their excrement, their urine, their after birth, their menstrual flow, their vomit, their blood, their sweat and stench at levels no one here could tolerate for 1 minute - they did it for 3 months...if they survived the beatings, rapes and torture occurring on board from sailors, prisoners who were far from sober most of the time lording over 'animals in which they could do what they wished and at will.

Once here, they were stripped of their culture, their language, stripped of everything that made them African.

They were then rebuilt into an American subservient breed of human designed to labor and be of service after being sold after their cargo journey.

Everything the Native Americans endured...the enslaved Black endured PLUS and Worse. Only the NAs were allowed allotted lands (their own land) to live out their lives and retain their heritage.
But still ostracized (which many obviously preferred)

They were deprived of family, could not be educated under threat of death - so intentionally and deliberately kept ignorant of ways in this new Hell on Earth...while being preached the Bible.

The African American is the TRUE American, he was striped of everything and rebuilt in America's image of him - good and bad...he is ALL American, America created him.

Some will pause to say "well it was different back then"... no it wasn't. It was as acceptable then as we tolerate wealthy residents in the Middle East import Filipinos and other Asians to be servants and workers their own people refuse to do because they are aware of the mistreatment of these people. They rape those women and their children and I'm sure some men suffer it as well...the stories are everywhere. And I haven't mentioned the actual sexual slave trade, but we had Jeffrey Epstein pulling it off right here in America, he smartly involved the highest politically connected and wealthy and held it over their heads...while escaping prosecution for years...until recently.

Back to the dark past, a president found it easier take advantage of his position of power over enslaved women...so if a principled man as Jefferson could do this with ease, what was expected of a scrawny insecure male-master wielding power over his inherited plantation of slaves or his opposite, the slovenly corpulent drunkard brute of a slave owner and their weekly if not nightly crashing of the slave quarters to take whatever they wanted, even an enslaved man's wife (were he permitted) from his bed, or his daughter or son. There was no end to the depravity.

Angry white wives splashing scalding hot water on a slave maid or child because she's angry after catching her husband returning from a night of 'fun'. Young 'master' boys coming of age taking liberty with the cook, the maid or their kids because he could - they knew a word against them was none existent.

There were millions of people like Thomas Paine who torpedoed his friendship with prominent founding fathers by pointing out how wrong, unjust and inhumane this world was. Jefferson, Washington and others heard Paine's message (and others) clearly and could have changed it instantly, but the tidal wave of money, privilege would be a herculean task of nearly impossible odds..they found it easier to let 'future others' deal with it.

So yeah, the 'that's the way those days were.." doesn't cut it. Millions of Abolitionist vocalized opposition to this obvious wrong, ...so everyone knew right from right, but the law said it was legal.

Until the Civil War.

But the act correct wrongs, Reconstruction - a weak attempt to correct some of the inequalities, was kind in thought but poorly executed and fizzled as people got tired of the issue and let the south have their way.

That History has a shadow that lives on to this very day.

When the world saw George Floyd lynched by an agent of the world's most envied system of laws - police of the American Laws, up and close and personal all at once - lynching a handcuffed defenseless man....It connected - globally.

The internet caused this global reaction. Any gamer knows that these young people are connected with each other worldwide. They are in constant communication with each other, sharing their ideas, feelings and thoughts. And most of them good people with a sense of fairness and a desire for justice - everywhere.

But Reparations, if you are white you have benefited from the institutionalized racism which the founders intended - whether you want that benefit or not it is extended to you by default. You can't help whether you are born one race or another nor did anyone alive today have anything to do with that horrid past.

But that Past needs to be redressed. Once dealt with head on..then everyone (in America) can move forward for once and for all. If not..this Sinclair Lewis quote cannot be avoided.

"Those Who Make Peaceful Revolution Impossible...Will Make Violent Revolution Inevitable."

George Floyd's death is a direct to link to the mindset of Enslaved America, your life means just as much as your ancestors - absolutely nothing. A lot of Americans still carry on the mentality or some residuals to those thoughts, we see it daily now as people are expressing their opinions and losing jobs over it.

BN747

Well all this tells me is there will never be a solution to this. Reparations certainly won't do it.. There will never be most certainly in my life time and I am sure many generations to come where there will be a level playing field in the eyes of liberals and blacks who listen to them and keep convincing them the white man is keeping them down. I hope Darren Chauvin gets life with no parole not only for killing this man but inciting all the bullshit and destruction that came after it...

And all 'that' confirms for any observer is that there are segments of society who 'for whatever their reason',do not mind benefitting from a racist past and institutionalized system and the very same do not believe in correcting wrongs - which is your 'right to believe'. In other words 'justice' only goes so far.



BN747

BN747 wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

BN747 wrote:

In a nutshell, that's it.

I've read all these post and it appears to me that many view the call to this action is not warranted...because their take on this like discussing some video game or some none-human related occurrence.

I've thought for years which was worse - the genocide and stolen lands of Native Americans Or the horrific history of enslaved Blacks in America.

The Slavery chapter of American history is by far the worst...and this is why.

Both were shredded of dignity and rampant violence from the start and it has an unspeakable legacy that most cannot look at for any length of time before being compelled to turn away.

First off, Slavery in ancient Rome, the Mediterranean cultures, African warring tribes, the Arab campaign of internationalizing of the practice...all horrible but have zero impact on America past or present.
Where is today's pall from slavery in all those cultures that some have posted here in a feeble effort to say 'it was everywhere'? How does any of those old world places measure up against the American dilemma?

None can.

Reparations is being discussed because of what was done to millions of human beings to get this country started.
They brought here after brutal capture and caging in Africa - local Africans helped by way of European bribes (appealing to greed) and or by the barrel of guns/canons - 'either go find us some or we'll take you'.
Humans had to lie prone - for 3 months, next another body, in their excrement, their urine, their after birth, their menstrual flow, their vomit, their blood, their sweat and stench at levels no one here could tolerate for 1 minute - they did it for 3 months...if they survived the beatings, rapes and torture occurring on board from sailors, prisoners who were far from sober most of the time lording over 'animals in which they could do what they wished and at will.

Once here, they were stripped of their culture, their language, stripped of everything that made them African.

They were then rebuilt into an American subservient breed of human designed to labor and be of service after being sold after their cargo journey.

Everything the Native Americans endured...the enslaved Black endured PLUS and Worse. Only the NAs were allowed allotted lands (their own land) to live out their lives and retain their heritage.
But still ostracized (which many obviously preferred)

They were deprived of family, could not be educated under threat of death - so intentionally and deliberately kept ignorant of ways in this new Hell on Earth...while being preached the Bible.

The African American is the TRUE American, he was striped of everything and rebuilt in America's image of him - good and bad...he is ALL American, America created him.

Some will pause to say "well it was different back then"... no it wasn't. It was as acceptable then as we tolerate wealthy residents in the Middle East import Filipinos and other Asians to be servants and workers their own people refuse to do because they are aware of the mistreatment of these people. They rape those women and their children and I'm sure some men suffer it as well...the stories are everywhere. And I haven't mentioned the actual sexual slave trade, but we had Jeffrey Epstein pulling it off right here in America, he smartly involved the highest politically connected and wealthy and held it over their heads...while escaping prosecution for years...until recently.

Back to the dark past, a president found it easier take advantage of his position of power over enslaved women...so if a principled man as Jefferson could do this with ease, what was expected of a scrawny insecure male-master wielding power over his inherited plantation of slaves or his opposite, the slovenly corpulent drunkard brute of a slave owner and their weekly if not nightly crashing of the slave quarters to take whatever they wanted, even an enslaved man's wife (were he permitted) from his bed, or his daughter or son. There was no end to the depravity.

Angry white wives splashing scalding hot water on a slave maid or child because she's angry after catching her husband returning from a night of 'fun'. Young 'master' boys coming of age taking liberty with the cook, the maid or their kids because he could - they knew a word against them was none existent.

There were millions of people like Thomas Paine who torpedoed his friendship with prominent founding fathers by pointing out how wrong, unjust and inhumane this world was. Jefferson, Washington and others heard Paine's message (and others) clearly and could have changed it instantly, but the tidal wave of money, privilege would be a herculean task of nearly impossible odds..they found it easier to let 'future others' deal with it.

So yeah, the 'that's the way those days were.." doesn't cut it. Millions of Abolitionist vocalized opposition to this obvious wrong, ...so everyone knew right from right, but the law said it was legal.

Until the Civil War.

But the act correct wrongs, Reconstruction - a weak attempt to correct some of the inequalities, was kind in thought but poorly executed and fizzled as people got tired of the issue and let the south have their way.

That History has a shadow that lives on to this very day.

When the world saw George Floyd lynched by an agent of the world's most envied system of laws - police of the American Laws, up and close and personal all at once - lynching a handcuffed defenseless man....It connected - globally.

The internet caused this global reaction. Any gamer knows that these young people are connected with each other worldwide. They are in constant communication with each other, sharing their ideas, feelings and thoughts. And most of them good people with a sense of fairness and a desire for justice - everywhere.

But Reparations, if you are white you have benefited from the institutionalized racism which the founders intended - whether you want that benefit or not it is extended to you by default. You can't help whether you are born one race or another nor did anyone alive today have anything to do with that horrid past.

But that Past needs to be redressed. Once dealt with head on..then everyone (in America) can move forward for once and for all. If not..this Sinclair Lewis quote cannot be avoided.

"Those Who Make Peaceful Revolution Impossible...Will Make Violent Revolution Inevitable."

George Floyd's death is a direct to link to the mindset of Enslaved America, your life means just as much as your ancestors - absolutely nothing. A lot of Americans still carry on the mentality or some residuals to those thoughts, we see it daily now as people are expressing their opinions and losing jobs over it.

BN747

Well all this tells me is there will never be a solution to this. Reparations certainly won't do it.. There will never be most certainly in my life time and I am sure many generations to come where there will be a level playing field in the eyes of liberals and blacks who listen to them and keep convincing them the white man is keeping them down. I hope Darren Chauvin gets life with no parole not only for killing this man but inciting all the bullshit and destruction that came after it...

And all 'that' confirms for any observer is that there are segments of society who 'for whatever their reason',do not mind benefitting from a racist past and institutionalized system and the very same do not believe in correcting wrongs - which is your 'right to believe'. In other words 'justice' only goes so far.



BN747

How can it be corrected?? No matter what is done it will never be enough. There have been many injustices to plenty of people thru the centuries the American Indian? I mean I could go on...The best thing Blacks can do is to stop their own self destruction. That would be better than anything the "White Man" could ever hope to give them... The only thing keeping Blacks down is Blacks themselves oh and of course liberals and Democrats. Poverty pimps like Al Sharpton need victims to keep themselves in the money. Asians come here they are not white very successful because they value family and education for one just those two things would improve the lives of African Americans immensely. It's not just a poverty thing either plenty of people grow up poor take Dr Ben Carson born to a poor single mother. The blacks hate him he is an "uncle tom" because he is a successful black man not only successful a top Neurosurgeon and member and HUD secretary. That is another problem with the AA community they punish success take any black kid who wants to do good his own black peers put him down call him "Uncle Tom" .. This will be unpopular in this forum but the biggest enemy of the African American is the African American themselves.

stratosphere wrote:

BN747 wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

Well all this tells me is there will never be a solution to this. Reparations certainly won't do it.. There will never be most certainly in my life time and I am sure many generations to come where there will be a level playing field in the eyes of liberals and blacks who listen to them and keep convincing them the white man is keeping them down. I hope Darren Chauvin gets life with no parole not only for killing this man but inciting all the bullshit and destruction that came after it...

And all 'that' confirms for any observer is that there are segments of society who 'for whatever their reason',do not mind benefitting from a racist past and institutionalized system and the very same do not believe in correcting wrongs - which is your 'right to believe'. In other words 'justice' only goes so far.



BN747

How can it be corrected?? No matter what is done it will never be enough. There have been many injustices to plenty of people thru the centuries the American Indian? I mean I could go on...The best thing Blacks can do is to stop their own self destruction. That would be better than anything the "White Man" could ever hope to give them... The only thing keeping Blacks down is Blacks themselves oh and of course liberals and Democrats. Poverty pimps like Al Sharpton need victims to keep themselves in the money. Asians come here they are not white very successful because they value family and education for one just those two things would improve the lives of African Americans immensely. It's not just a poverty thing either plenty of people grow up poor take Dr Ben Carson born to a poor single mother. The blacks hate him he is an "uncle tom" because he is a successful black man not only successful a top Neurosurgeon and member and HUD secretary. That is another problem with the AA community they punish success take any black kid who wants to do good his own black peers put him down call him "Uncle Tom" .. This will be unpopular in this forum but the biggest enemy of the African American is the African American themselves.

It's unpopular globally because millions if not billions of people have a deeper understanding of reality than those who 'think' they know what's good for 'others' (unlike themselves) and what they should do.

Perhaps with all that wealth of 'knowledge' you can solve @MeToo as well. Warning...it equally has a long and storied history behind it as well.

BN747

CARIBNY
Just to answer the points that you made

The Barbary Pirates were a great threat and in the Mediterranean area and further afield and perhaps they were allowed to prosper because the naval powers of Europe were too busy fighting each other at the time. In fact it was your own USA navy who finally forced the pirates to stop. Now you ask where are the descendants of these slaves, well the general practise of the Arab world was to Castrate all male slaves and to include a large number of female slaves into the harems,
When you say these ancient slave trade do not relate to today's world well Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1961 and Mauritania made slavery illegal in 1981.

Now people of colour suggest that reparations are correct from the white population because they benefit from white privilege. Well do not tell my ancestors that they benefited from any privilege as they worked with their hands and backs in the farm fields all their life with wages just sufficient to keep the family alive. When coal was found locally they became coal miners in conditions you could never imagine . So what prevented me from going down the coalmine, well my parent's insistence on education.
So no benefit from slavery or white privilege here

rfields5421 wrote:

One of the problems I've watched develop over the past 50+ years is the efforts of the 'welfare' system to destroy the family concept for the recipients of government assistance.

Basically, the system provides assistance to mothers to help have 'decent' housing for children when the family is financially unable to support housing costs. But starting in the 1960's the system was set so that the father of the children could not live with the family.

Personally, I think this has a lot to do problems among young children of the poor. (Note - in almost every state, the last time I looked in the mid 2000's more Caucasians received such government assistance than Blacks or Hispanics.)

If the children do not have father figures to provide a positive example, do not have a somewhat stable home, they cannot 'learn' values which prevent much of the problems we see. This system also prevents parental supervision and efforts to prevent such things as drug use, petty theft, poor education, etc.

Education is the key, and unless the parents put a priority on education, the child is handicapped from the start. No matter the level of native intelligence.

Reparations will do NOTHING to fix a problem. Those are 'free' money with no value in that the person receiving the money has not invested anything in an effort to obtain the money. If there must be something along that line, I vastly prefer the money to be focused on education.

Thread over at paragraph one. Complete collapse of the family unit driven by ignorant politicians.

vc10 wrote:

CARIBNY
Just to answer the points that you made

The Barbary Pirates were a great threat and in the Mediterranean area and further afield and perhaps they were allowed to prosper because the naval powers of Europe were too busy fighting each other at the time. In fact it was your own USA navy who finally forced the pirates to stop. Now you ask where are the descendants of these slaves, well the general practise of the Arab world was to Castrate all male slaves and to include a large number of female slaves into the harems,
When you say these ancient slave trade do not relate to today's world well Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1961 and Mauritania made slavery illegal in 1981.

Now people of colour suggest that reparations are correct from the white population because they benefit from white privilege. Well do not tell my ancestors that they benefited from any privilege as they worked with their hands and backs in the farm fields all their life with wages just sufficient to keep the family alive. When coal was found locally they became coal miners in conditions you could never imagine . So what prevented me from going down the coalmine, well my parent's insistence on education.
So no benefit from slavery or white privilege here

Here? Where is here? Also 'here' cannot be America ..because 'here' in America it is pervasive.

BN747

stratosphere wrote:

How can it be corrected?? No matter what is done it will never be enough. There have been many injustices to plenty of people thru the centuries the American Indian? I mean I could go on...The best thing Blacks can do is to stop their own self destruction.

As soon as I read this idiotic nonsense I see someone who doesnt know black people. and that 100% of what you get is from FOX and other bigoted media sources. Do you know educated black people? Do you know black business owners? If you do know any do they trust you to be honest? Have you spoken to them about what they go through? Now that have done all the things that one must do to succeed in this country.

It will shock you to know that blacks complete high school at almost the same rate as do whites. That among younger cohorts college completion rates are not far behind that of white males. That 8% of the professionals in this country are black, which is not that much lower than the black population at large. Black poverty has plunged since the last 70 years and the pool of college educated blacks is much larger, and a sizeable black middle class exists.

Yet these same people have to groom their sons about how to deal with the cops to avoid being murdered!

Contrary to what you might believe many black people live lives of personal responsibility and have a desire to succeed, but are hampered by implicit bias and institutional racism. A black man with a Harvard degree tries to tell a white woman in NYC to behave herself. She threatens to call the cops, knowing that if the cops arrived they would believe her narratives, not his and then he would risk humiliation. SO YOU SEE HIS HARVARD DEGREE DID NOT SAVE HIM FROM RACISM!

Senator Tim Scott, A REPUBLICAN, can speak of the humiliation that he has had to undergo from nonentity cops who refuse to believe that a black man can be a Senator. So how do you answer that?

vc10 wrote:

CARIBNY
Just to answer the points that you made

The Barbary Pirates were a great threat and in the Mediterranean area and further afield and perhaps they were allowed to prosper because the naval powers of Europe were too busy fighting each other at the time. In fact it was your own USA navy who finally forced the pirates to stop. Now you ask where are the descendants of these slaves, well the general practise of the Arab world was to Castrate all male slaves and to include a large number of female slaves into the harems,
When you say these ancient slave trade do not relate to today's world well Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1961 and Mauritania made slavery illegal in 1981.

Now people of colour suggest that reparations are correct from the white population because they benefit from white privilege. Well do not tell my ancestors that they benefited from any privilege as they worked with their hands and backs in the farm fields all their life with wages just sufficient to keep the family alive. When coal was found locally they became coal miners in conditions you could never imagine . So what prevented me from going down the coalmine, well my parent's insistence on education.


So no benefit from slavery or white privilege here

And you are trying to tell me that GREAT BRITAIN, the greatest naval power of all times, let some North African kingdoms steal hundreds of thousands of their people. If they did then you need to blame them. GB ran the entire planet in the 19th. France was also a tremendously powerful nation. If Europe wants reparations from Morocco they can demand it and put sanctions on Morocco to get it, so please do NOT cry victim.

I already mentioned that the descendants of the Arab slave trade aren't empowered enough to advocate for their own civil rights. This unlike those of the Caribbean and the USA. Maybe you can help the descendants of this slave trade to organize so that they can also demand reparations.

Btw where is the proof that most American blacks demand reparations. What they demand is the ability to do what they must without having white racists and those "who don't see color" block their way. Yes those who get college degrees, even MBAs from Harvard, and then must struggle harder than their peers.

Maybe you will learn that when it comes to black people FAUX News doesnt isnt a good source. After all we have people who celebrated those racist marchers in Charlottesville, and others who condone the murder of George Floyd and other victims of police murder.

caribny wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

How can it be corrected?? No matter what is done it will never be enough. There have been many injustices to plenty of people thru the centuries the American Indian? I mean I could go on...The best thing Blacks can do is to stop their own self destruction.

As soon as I read this idiotic nonsense I see someone who doesnt know black people. and that 100% of what you get is from FOX and other bigoted media sources. Do you know educated black people? Do you know black business owners? If you do know any do they trust you to be honest? Have you spoken to them about what they go through? Now that have done all the things that one must do to succeed in this country.

It will shock you to know that blacks complete high school at almost the same rate as do whites. That among younger cohorts college completion rates are not far behind that of white males. That 8% of the professionals in this country are black, which is not that much lower than the black population at large. Black poverty has plunged since the last 70 years and the pool of college educated blacks is much larger, and a sizeable black middle class exists.

Yet these same people have to groom their sons about how to deal with the cops to avoid being murdered!

Contrary to what you might believe many black people live lives of personal responsibility and have a desire to succeed, but are hampered by implicit bias and institutional racism. A black man with a Harvard degree tries to tell a white woman in NYC to behave herself. She threatens to call the cops, knowing that if the cops arrived they would believe her narratives, not his and then he would risk humiliation. SO YOU SEE HIS HARVARD DEGREE DID NOT SAVE HIM FROM RACISM!

Senator Tim Scott, A REPUBLICAN, can speak of the humiliation that he has had to undergo from nonentity cops who refuse to believe that a black man can be a Senator. So how do you answer that?

Yes I know plenty of successful black people. You can't have it both ways.. Thats my point. Constantly complaining about how the white man has kept you down yet plenty of successful black people. How bout stop the bad personal decisions and stop looking for whitey to hand you a check for an injustice that happened 155 years ago..

So what happens after you pay reparations, remove the statues, change the flags, censor books, movies and tv shows, and nothing changes??? This is a situation that has been playing out in NZ for many years with the Treaty of Waitangi Commission, reparations have been paid, land returned, maori consult on pretty much everything that happens in NZ, they get preferential entry into some university courses, they have guaranteed seats in Parliament, regional & local councils and various boards, with all these advantages they have they still fall behind every other ethnic group in NZ, in most metrics, they commit the majority of crime, they make up 50% of the prison population. When do a group of people finally take a step back and look at themselves and admit that they might just be part of the problem???

In NZ govts since the 80’s have bent over backwards to try solve racial problems in NZ, it appears to no avail. I don’t see the US solving problem any time during the rest of my life.

Kiwirob wrote:

So what happens after you pay reparations, remove the statues, change the flags, censor books, movies and tv shows, and nothing changes??? This is a situation that has been playing out in NZ for many years with the Treaty of Waitangi Commission, reparations have been paid, land returned, maori consult on pretty much everything that happens in NZ, they get preferential entry into some university courses, they have guaranteed seats in Parliament, regional & local councils and various boards, with all these advantages they have they still fall behind every other ethnic group in NZ, in most metrics, they commit the majority of crime, they make up 50% of the prison population. When do a group of people finally take a step back and look at themselves and admit that they might just be part of the problem???

In NZ govts since the 80’s have bent over backwards to try solve racial problems in NZ, it appears to no avail. I don’t see the US solving problem any time during the rest of my life.

Perhaps you should solicit an opinion from that lone Maori guy you met in Norway?

I'm mean it too how many years of pissing off the natives (100, 200 or 300+?), if anything was ever 'generational'...here we go.

...and now you're upset because it (the NZ reparations) failed to yield the expected 'microwave oven' 20 sec results???

BN747

BN747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

So what happens after you pay reparations, remove the statues, change the flags, censor books, movies and tv shows, and nothing changes??? This is a situation that has been playing out in NZ for many years with the Treaty of Waitangi Commission, reparations have been paid, land returned, maori consult on pretty much everything that happens in NZ, they get preferential entry into some university courses, they have guaranteed seats in Parliament, regional & local councils and various boards, with all these advantages they have they still fall behind every other ethnic group in NZ, in most metrics, they commit the majority of crime, they make up 50% of the prison population. When do a group of people finally take a step back and look at themselves and admit that they might just be part of the problem???

In NZ govts since the 80’s have bent over backwards to try solve racial problems in NZ, it appears to no avail. I don’t see the US solving problem any time during the rest of my life.

Perhaps you should solicit an opinion from that lone Maori guy you met in Norway?

I'm mean it too how many years of pissing off the natives (100, 200 or 300+?), if anything was ever 'generational'...here we go.

...and now you're upset because it (the NZ reparations) failed to yield the expected 'microwave oven' 20 sec results???

BN747

Reparations have been ongoing in NZ for nearly 40 years. Two generations, and nothing tangible from it. Kiwis are flexible and fair people but as some point enough it enough and playing the blame game has to stop.

Kiwirob wrote:

So what happens after you pay reparations, remove the statues, change the flags, censor books, movies and tv shows, and nothing changes??? This is a situation that has been playing out in NZ for many years with the Treaty of Waitangi Commission, reparations have been paid, land returned, maori consult on pretty much everything that happens in NZ, they get preferential entry into some university courses, they have guaranteed seats in Parliament, regional & local councils and various boards, with all these advantages they have they still fall behind every other ethnic group in NZ, in most metrics, they commit the majority of crime, they make up 50% of the prison population.

Kiwirob wrote:

When do a group of people finally take a step back and look at themselves and admit that they might just be part of the problem???

This is something that is very hard to do, be it an individual or or a group. Demand that someone (some other group, society as the whole) does something for me - is much easier. Another way to put it - “it’s easier to vote than it is to work”.

Kiwirob wrote:

In NZ govts since the 80’s have bent over backwards to try solve racial problems in NZ, it appears to no avail. I don’t see the US solving problem any time during the rest of my life.

These problems do have their solutions, but they require hard work and a lot of time. Efforts, unpopular decisions and funding needs to be invested now, but the result will not be seen in one electoral cycle, and even after two it will be limited at best.

Kiwirob I found your review of what is happening in NZ today very enlightening and sort of confirms what I always thought would happen if you make a section of society a favoured group.

Kiwirob wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

So what happens after you pay reparations, remove the statues, change the flags, censor books, movies and tv shows, and nothing changes??? This is a situation that has been playing out in NZ for many years with the Treaty of Waitangi Commission, reparations have been paid, land returned, maori consult on pretty much everything that happens in NZ, they get preferential entry into some university courses, they have guaranteed seats in Parliament, regional & local councils and various boards, with all these advantages they have they still fall behind every other ethnic group in NZ, in most metrics, they commit the majority of crime, they make up 50% of the prison population. When do a group of people finally take a step back and look at themselves and admit that they might just be part of the problem???

In NZ govts since the 80’s have bent over backwards to try solve racial problems in NZ, it appears to no avail. I don’t see the US solving problem any time during the rest of my life.

Perhaps you should solicit an opinion from that lone Maori guy you met in Norway?

I'm mean it too how many years of pissing off the natives (100, 200 or 300+?), if anything was ever 'generational'...here we go.

...and now you're upset because it (the NZ reparations) failed to yield the expected 'microwave oven' 20 sec results???

BN747

Reparations have been ongoing in NZ for nearly 40 years. Two generations, and nothing tangible from it. Kiwis are flexible and fair people but as some point enough it enough and playing the blame game has to stop.

I think the opinion of an Maori native's opinion on this would provide a balanced view is in order to counter your take on this issue...some how I don't get the vibe that your perspective is every or even half the non-Maori views on this. I'm ready to be proven wrong, but I'd wager the differ.

And mind your New Zealand atrocities against the Maori fall along the lines of European atrocities on North American Natives...not the Reparations arguments here in America with regard to enslaved Black Americans - to be clear.

BN747

How much are each of you pro reparations folks prepared to pay?

LCDFlight wrote:

I know successful people of every ethnic background. Some have had more advantages than others. The really strong people I know (of every ethnic background) make zero excuses for themselves, and see their role in this world as a strong performer, and provider to the weak. Kindness is strength, not weakness. Seeing yourself as weak is a terrible problem. We are all weak, but you have to pursue excellence. Over time, you WILL reach it. It might take you until age 30 or 40, or even 50. But you need to pursue it.

I find this narrative of original sin (against some children) and diminished humanity (against other children) outrageous.

My country has its own shameful past in this regard of stealing children away from parents and putting them in the “care” of institutions with some of the most brutal and wicked people you could imagine. A lot of indigenous children sadly went this way, but even non-indigenous children too. They were mentally abused and sometimes physically abused too. The vile monsters who committed these abuses are mostly dead these days.

Some of my colleagues were these kids. We had a day where our leader apologised formally for these terrible wrongs - standing beside them as they watched this you could see the hurt was still there. If you are human, you couldn’t not also be affected.

Its not about how much you want to pay, we pay anyway for broken communities, we’ve just got to make sure we don’t let the less fortunate fall through the cracks of our systems.

It’s easier to be critical and throw sticks and stones than try to make things better, that you can see above.

Why should, say, an Asian American who came to the US with nothing to their name 20 years ago and managed, through hard work and perseverance, to succeed have to pay for someone who started off in life much better off than themselves and did not manage to make anything of it?

There is no greater privilege in this life than being born in the U.S., no matter under what status. It allows you to take advantage of all the opportunities this great country has to offer without having to uproot your entire life and family to be able to access them, and having to go through the hassle of the immigration system. Every single group that has come to the U.S., legally or illegally, has, over the course of one generation, out-performed African-Americans, who had the major advantages of a) being US citizens and b) speaking English as their native language. At what point are people start going to assume some responsibility for their own outcome?

cpd wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I know successful people of every ethnic background. Some have had more advantages than others. The really strong people I know (of every ethnic background) make zero excuses for themselves, and see their role in this world as a strong performer, and provider to the weak. Kindness is strength, not weakness. Seeing yourself as weak is a terrible problem. We are all weak, but you have to pursue excellence. Over time, you WILL reach it. It might take you until age 30 or 40, or even 50. But you need to pursue it.

I find this narrative of original sin (against some children) and diminished humanity (against other children) outrageous.

My country has its own shameful past in this regard of stealing children away from parents and putting them in the “care” of institutions with some of the most brutal and wicked people you could imagine. A lot of indigenous children sadly went this way, but even non-indigenous children too. They were mentally abused and sometimes physically abused too. The vile monsters who committed these abuses are mostly dead these days.

Some of my colleagues were these kids. We had a day where our leader apologised formally for these terrible wrongs - standing beside them as they watched this you could see the hurt was still there. If you are human, you couldn’t not also be affected.

Its not about how much you want to pay, we pay anyway for broken communities, we’ve just got to make sure we don’t let the less fortunate fall through the cracks of our systems.

It’s easier to be critical and throw sticks and stones than try to make things better, that you can see above.

I can't agree more with what you said. All I say is we need to tell people they are strong and provide them tools (not excuses). Not tell them are hopeless / screwed for life because of some historcali wrong that happened in 1760, or in 7500 BC. This narrative will corrode and destroy them. It would have destroyed me. People are very suggestible. Opportinities are **not** worse for under-represented groups today than in the past. It has gotten better (people can choose to fixate on any view of this they like). It is normal to have a CEO or a president from an under-represented group now. We have reached the stage where people are demanding equal wealth for all... that's the current point of discussion. We'll see where that goes.

LCDFlight wrote:

cpd wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I know successful people of every ethnic background. Some have had more advantages than others. The really strong people I know (of every ethnic background) make zero excuses for themselves, and see their role in this world as a strong performer, and provider to the weak. Kindness is strength, not weakness. Seeing yourself as weak is a terrible problem. We are all weak, but you have to pursue excellence. Over time, you WILL reach it. It might take you until age 30 or 40, or even 50. But you need to pursue it.

I find this narrative of original sin (against some children) and diminished humanity (against other children) outrageous.

My country has its own shameful past in this regard of stealing children away from parents and putting them in the “care” of institutions with some of the most brutal and wicked people you could imagine. A lot of indigenous children sadly went this way, but even non-indigenous children too. They were mentally abused and sometimes physically abused too. The vile monsters who committed these abuses are mostly dead these days.

Some of my colleagues were these kids. We had a day where our leader apologised formally for these terrible wrongs - standing beside them as they watched this you could see the hurt was still there. If you are human, you couldn’t not also be affected.

Its not about how much you want to pay, we pay anyway for broken communities, we’ve just got to make sure we don’t let the less fortunate fall through the cracks of our systems.

It’s easier to be critical and throw sticks and stones than try to make things better, that you can see above.

I can't agree more with what you said. All I say is we need to tell people they are strong and provide them tools (not excuses). Not tell them are hopeless / screwed for life because of some historcali wrong that happened in 1760, or in 7500 BC. This narrative will corrode and destroy them. It would have destroyed me. People are very suggestible. Opportinities are **not** worse for under-represented groups today than in the past. It has gotten better (people can choose to fixate on any view of this they like). It is normal to have a CEO or a president from an under-represented group now. We have reached the stage where people are demanding equal wealth for all... that's the current point of discussion. We'll see where that goes.

I mean, things have gotten so bad for minorities that they can't even use that word anymore, had to come up with something to hide the massive success of the (East and South) Asian American community in the U.S. (and, to a lesser extent, Hispanics). Hence the bullshit "under-represented" term cropping up.

Pyrex wrote:

Every single group that has come to the U.S., legally or illegally, has, over the course of one generation, out-performed African-Americans, who hao anchor d the major advantages of a) being US citizens and b) speaking English as their native language. At what point are people start going to assume some responsibility for their own outcome?

And that...right there is the mindset of the type who has no grasp, not even the slightest concept (and most likely zero interest) in what Black Americans have endured throughout their existence here.

A simplistic understanding demands a simplistic reply.

A the races were off 400 years ago...
Whites had no anchor or chains holding them down or back.
Italians, Jews and Catholics had a few impediments blocking their attempts at advancement.
Chinese imports had some barriers impeding them
It took the 1960s era for most restraints to be removed (by a violent Civil Rights struggle after being bombed in Tulsa 1921) because they dared to be successful) but to that much time to past for Black Americans to even be considered to enter the American Races to the American.

...and some people stand and watch and ask aloud 'Why can't they catch up? What's wrong with them'

Discounting or ignoring factual history will always land 'limited thinkers' into the ignorance circle.

BN747

Jews have historically for millennia been discriminated against, murdered, forcibly relocated. The history is over 2,000 years. Guess what, like overseas Chinese, their culture values education, respect for seniors and family (meaning understanding their history, too) sacrifice and investment for the future. These two groups remain as models for how to get ahead in the world despite adversity. Africans, including African-Americans, could learn a lot. They practice the opposite of each of those cultural traits—lost their history, fail to respect their seniors, refuse to invest and value excellence in education, and generally disrespect their citizenship. Those pathologies have trended in the wrong direction aided by government incentives toward bad behaviors.

It’s pretty easy to get ahead in America, Black, White, Purpke—get a modicum if education, behave in a lawful manner, marry before having children, stay married and educate the next generation. Don’t indulge your appetites too much goes a long ways, too.

[*]

BN747 wrote:

Pyrex wrote:

Every single group that has come to the U.S., legally or illegally, has, over the course of one generation, out-performed African-Americans, who hao anchor d the major advantages of a) being US citizens and b) speaking English as their native language. At what point are people start going to assume some responsibility for their own outcome?

And that...right there is the mindset of the type who has no grasp, not even the slightest concept (and most likely zero interest) in what Black Americans have endured throughout their existence here.

A simplistic understanding demands a simplistic reply.

A the races were off 400 years ago...
Whites had no anchor or chains holding them down or back.
Italians, Jews and Catholics had a few impediments blocking their attempts at advancement.
Chinese imports had some barriers impeding them
It took the 1960s era for most restraints to be removed (by a violent Civil Rights struggle after being bombed in Tulsa 1921) because they dared to be successful) but to that much time to past for Black Americans to even be considered to enter the American Races to the American.

...and some people stand and watch and ask aloud 'Why can't they catch up? What's wrong with them'

Discounting or ignoring factual history will always land 'limited thinkers' into the ignorance circle.

BN747

I am not discounting anything - I am making the factual statement that a Mexican peasant that does not speak English crossing the Rio Grande illegally, with no documentation, is in a much worse position in life than an African American that is a US citizen and native English speaker living in public housing. And if I were to pick a random person from each of those two groups, who do you think would be better off in life 20 years from now?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Jews have historically for millennia been discriminated against, murdered, forcibly relocated. The history is over 2,000 years. Guess what, like overseas Chinese, their culture values education, respect for seniors and family (meaning understanding their history, too) sacrifice and investment for the future. These two groups remain as models for how to get ahead in the world despite adversity. Africans, including African-Americans, could learn a lot. They practice the opposite of each of those cultural traits—lost their history, fail to respect their seniors, refuse to invest and value excellence in education, and generally disrespect their citizenship. Those pathologies have trended in the wrong direction aided by government incentives toward bad behaviors.

It’s pretty easy to get ahead in America, Black, White, Purpke—get a modicum if education, behave in a lawful manner, marry before having children, stay married and educate the next generation. Don’t indulge your appetites too much goes a long ways, too.

The 'Cookie Cutter' model does not work for everyone like you think it does.

But the path of each has been met with resistance of varied types and each with different levels of lethal force.

African Americans have learned everything about their white oppressors since being in America, they had to know their place and remain silent. But observe and 'note' like spies.

How much have you bother 'know' or 'learn' other than watching 'Cops'...?

How often do Whites listen to Blacks? Start with the MLK march on DC and every march, protest, uprising since.

"Those who resist peaceful revolution, make violent revolution inevitable - Sinclair Lewis.

The same thing that occurred when the only time America planes bombed American citizens in it's history, was the Tulsa attack on a prosperous black community.
That attack, the Little Rock, Elaine Ark. Black community attack, and the Rosewood Fla. Attack and many more affected and reverberated into every black community in America.
These string of events have a lasting impact. Jews nevert suffered that neither did the Chinese. Maybe they can learn something from that.

That same thought is exact same motive behind the hatred of Jews - we still hear to this day. Envy over Jews financial accomplishments/achievements.

Money, is the number one issue people over the centuries is their curse. Why?

The only reason to hate these people over that is is greed, envy or both. Period. Pre-dating the Roman era.

This 'acting' like everyone was starting off from an equal place or starting point or that things weren't so bad but now is better and now is all equal is colossal lack of understanding and respect of the history that led today.

But to each his own, you wish serve up your remedy to what these people should do and not do...works in the world of those with zero depth in understanding as well as understanding the consequences that follow. But 'learning and knowing' history will always champion 'guessing with limited input'.

BN747

BN747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Perhaps you should solicit an opinion from that lone Maori guy you met in Norway?

I'm mean it too how many years of pissing off the natives (100, 200 or 300+?), if anything was ever 'generational'...here we go.

...and now you're upset because it (the NZ reparations) failed to yield the expected 'microwave oven' 20 sec results???

BN747

Reparations have been ongoing in NZ for nearly 40 years. Two generations, and nothing tangible from it. Kiwis are flexible and fair people but as some point enough it enough and playing the blame game has to stop.

I think the opinion of an Maori native's opinion on this would provide a balanced view is in order to counter your take on this issue...some how I don't get the vibe that your perspective is every or even half the non-Maori views on this. I'm ready to be proven wrong, but I'd wager the differ.

And mind your New Zealand atrocities against the Maori fall along the lines of European atrocities on North American Natives...not the Reparations arguments here in America with regard to enslaved Black Americans - to be clear.

BN747

For a start there were no atrocities committed against maori in NZ, what massacres that did happen in colonial times tended to be of settlers not of maori.

Maori have always had the vote, maori women were given the vote the same time as all white women. Maori and white kiwis have intermarried right from the start, there has never been any stigma to mixed marriages, apart from a few maori in remote communities every maori is mixed race, you would have a very difficult time finding a maori who wasn’t mixed. Which leads to a lot of issues regarding who is and isn’t maori, my brother in law is maori, he’s as white as I am.

I think my view would be the view that most non maori kiwis have, by this I also include the growing Asian/Chinese population in NZ. This is also causing a problem, Asians are increasing in numbers, it wouldn’t be long before they overtake the maori population, pushing them further down the list. NZ is a multicultural mess, it was easier when we were mostly bi-cultural, now everyone wants a slice of the pie.

Kiwirob wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Reparations have been ongoing in NZ for nearly 40 years. Two generations, and nothing tangible from it. Kiwis are flexible and fair people but as some point enough it enough and playing the blame game has to stop.

I think the opinion of an Maori native's opinion on this would provide a balanced view is in order to counter your take on this issue...some how I don't get the vibe that your perspective is every or even half the non-Maori views on this. I'm ready to be proven wrong, but I'd wager the differ.

And mind your New Zealand atrocities against the Maori fall along the lines of European atrocities on North American Natives...not the Reparations arguments here in America with regard to enslaved Black Americans - to be clear.

BN747

.... I also include the growing Asian/Chinese population in NZ. This is also causing a problem, Asians are increasing in numbers, it wouldn’t be long before they overtake the maori population, pushing them further down the list. NZ is a multicultural mess, it was easier when we were mostly bi-cultural, now everyone wants a slice of the pie.

Well just like traffic on roads, we manage to share the roads (tons of diverse drivers), take sharing one step further...time to set 'selfishness' aside/ The bi-cultural days are gone and now come multi-cultural, hate as you may..it's coming and orderly getting a can be achieved or it better be ..because if not only the ugliest of existence remains the only option.

That applies everywhere, as populations increase, the world shrinks. And as this new generation grows it brings with it a 'gaming-mentality' of comfortableness with others living across the globe thus familiarizing them with different peoples - their attitudes towards 'others' will be a world apart from yours. They will not view society as past generations have.

This explains why so many people of every ethinic make up are at these worldwide marches and protest. They are communicating.
And as far as communication with varied peoples, they are several steps ahead of every generation before them. Just a step or two ahead of those of us who grew up living abroad.

BN747

Wow...who knew the original 'Looter & Arsonists' were the participants of the biggest domestic terror attack in America prior to 9/11 ...was in Tulsa, Okla. in 1921?

Guess speaker on MSNBC Chris Hayes details it.

After they slaughtered over 300 Blacks in the 'Black Wall Street' district, they had as many days as desired to raid, loot all the belongings not wiped out by the bombing of the Black community.

They sure as hell didn't speak of this in US history. If fact, the guest said how the horrific event was squashed from publicity for decades.


BN747

African Americans have learned everything about their white oppressors since being in America, they had to know their place and remain silent. But observe and 'note' like spies.

If they “observed and noted’; why didn’t they learn? There’s a reasonably large cohort of educated African-Americans, it’s possible. I’ve known many successful enlisted, WOs in the military, but was always surpriser by the pathologies in their offspring—drugs, illegitimate children, homeless despite educated, successful hard working African-American parents who worked their tails off. One of my best enlisted flight crew was dragged down by a wife and children dealing and using crack back in the crack epidemic.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

African Americans have learned everything about their white oppressors since being in America, they had to know their place and remain silent. But observe and 'note' like spies.

If they “observed and noted’; why didn’t they learn? There’s a reasonably large cohort of educated African-Americans, it’s possible. I’ve known many successful enlisted, WOs in the military, but was always surpriser by the pathologies in their offspring—drugs, illegitimate children, homeless despite educated, successful hard working African-American parents who worked their tails off. One of my best enlisted flight crew was dragged down by a wife and children dealing and using crack back in the crack epidemic.

Well now, you just answered your own question, didn't you. There's all your experience and knowledge of your question in ONE sentence.

A bank vault doesn't have a tighter seal.

But next time you wish extract a singular comment to respond to...keep it within context and not mold it into some floundering explanation of what you 'know'...

Playing on your field, I can ask you 'why haven't you learned more about the Black American experience, history,etc...since you 'know' so much and yet sooooo little. But we both know the answer to that.

BN747

Dieuwer wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

It is always someone else's fault and especially the fault of the white man..

Indeed. Very little self initiative. Always fault of someone else, and always someone else "has to pay".
I am still waiting for the OP or anyone else in this thread to open their wallet and put their money where their mouth is.

Someone on this forum who supports stuff like this was going on about his various properties around the world and million dollar earrings. Good place to start.

DL717 wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

It is always someone else's fault and especially the fault of the white man..

Indeed. Very little self initiative. Always fault of someone else, and always someone else "has to pay".
I am still waiting for the OP or anyone else in this thread to open their wallet and put their money where their mouth is.

Someone on this forum who supports stuff like this was going on about his various properties around the world and million dollar earrings. Good place to start.

Explain the satisfaction either you get from someone disclosing such information (if you can), neither of you are in that boat..so how does whether they are open to such gesture effect any of you?
You won't, they don't care...no one does. But OTOH, people by and large will.

Whether they put up money for abused animals, Indian charities, BLM, Reparations is none of your business just as your donations to 8Chan, American Nazis or Stormfront, if they apply...none of you would be as forth coming as you are asking of them.

BN747

BN747 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

African Americans have learned everything about their white oppressors since being in America, they had to know their place and remain silent. But observe and 'note' like spies.

If they “observed and noted’; why didn’t they learn? There’s a reasonably large cohort of educated African-Americans, it’s possible. I’ve known many successful enlisted, WOs in the military, but was always surpriser by the pathologies in their offspring—drugs, illegitimate children, homeless despite educated, successful hard working African-American parents who worked their tails off. One of my best enlisted flight crew was dragged down by a wife and children dealing and using crack back in the crack epidemic.

Well now, you just answered your own question, didn't you. There's all your experience and knowledge of your question in ONE sentence.

A bank vault doesn't have a tighter seal.

But next time you wish extract a singular comment to respond to...keep it within context and not mold it into some floundering explanation of what you 'know'...

Playing on your field, I can ask you 'why haven't you learned more about the Black American experience, history,etc...since you 'know' so much and yet sooooo little. But we both know the answer to that.

BN747

Enough Democrat nonsense, read Sen Scott (R-S.C.) has to say about the African-American experience in today’s WSJ.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/living-his ... _lead_pos5

Sen Scott has more experience than I do, true, but he also has better ideas than you do, perhaps more experience, too. But, he’s not on your Democratic Party reservation, is he? Stop playing victim hood, you’ll get farther.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

BN747 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

If they “observed and noted’; why didn’t they learn? There’s a reasonably large cohort of educated African-Americans, it’s possible. I’ve known many successful enlisted, WOs in the military, but was always surpriser by the pathologies in their offspring—drugs, illegitimate children, homeless despite educated, successful hard working African-American parents who worked their tails off. One of my best enlisted flight crew was dragged down by a wife and children dealing and using crack back in the crack epidemic.

Well now, you just answered your own question, didn't you. There's all your experience and knowledge of your question in ONE sentence.

A bank vault doesn't have a tighter seal.

But next time you wish extract a singular comment to respond to...keep it within context and not mold it into some floundering explanation of what you 'know'...

Playing on your field, I can ask you 'why haven't you learned more about the Black American experience, history,etc...since you 'know' so much and yet sooooo little. But we both know the answer to that.

BN747

Enough Democrat nonsense, read Sen Scott (R-S.C.) has to say about the African-American experience in today’s WSJ.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/living-his ... _lead_pos5

Sen Scott has more experience than I do, true, but he also has better ideas than you do, perhaps more experience, too. But, he’s not on your Democratic Party reservation, is he? Stop playing victim hood, you’ll get farther.

That quote alone tells me all I need to know about where you are coming from.

To you Tim Scott is new.

To people who know, understand 'black perspectives in general know that the act that Tim Scott is putting on is one crafted 100+ years ago by many blacks before him. George Washington Carver all the way to Clarence Thomas and new GOP darling Candace Owner.

The Fox News crowd always endorses and promotes apologizing Black people (Tim Scott).

Tim Scott is speaking to whites. Certain type of whites... the Fox News audience who prefer the tamed images of Aunt Jemima/Uncle Ben harmless 'negroes' imagery.

Be nice and smile or also apologize (or trash) for the Blacks (esp. the radical one's like Malcolm X) heck...today's conservatives are the same conservatives from the 1950s -60s who called MLK, Martin Luther Coon and every other derogatory term thinkable. They hated Cassuis Clay (Muhammed Ali) because he was 'too free' too in your face and they showered him with hate as well.

And now today Fox and followers love (just like the Bible) picking the parts, quotes that they like and parroting them while all the while know absolutely nothing about them or their struggles.

Tim Scott Ha!... Ben Carson can't be far behind.

BN747

Apparently, there is a subscriber, that conservative black people are Uncle Toms. There is no discussing this, as they don't do well. They have an over-inflated opinion of their intellect. Scott and Carson, "Ha," there it is.

Spend money on education. Unlimited money. For everyone. It's the solution to this problem, and to the problem facing all of us : being replaced by robots/AI.

Public education I mean, or very well controlled private education, not 50000$ a year for kids nonsense you have in the US.