It is apparent that another piece of systematic racism in this country is the economic inequality and discrimination that blacks have faced. They have had to sacrifice so much economically for whites. What is the best way to set up reparations to Mitigate this form of systematic racism? Should it be a yearly payment, a tax credit, or maybe free college?

What suggestions do you have to stop economic, systematic racism in the U.S.?

Ipse Dixit.

Pi7472000 wrote:

It is apparent that another piece of systematic racism in this country is the economic inequality and discrimination that blacks have faced. They have had to sacrifice so much economically for whites. What is the best way to set up reparations to Mitigate this form of systematic racism? Should it be a yearly payment, a tax credit, or maybe free college?

What suggestions do you have to stop economic, systematic racism in the U.S.?

Speaking of mitigation - let's look at root cause, which is (largely at least). It is presence of communities with weak education, drugs, crime, etc. And such disadvantaged communities (ethnic neighborhoods, small towns) exist all over the country and aren't specific to Blacks - some of them are predominantly white, some Asian, some South-American. And they are plagued by problems that can't be fixed by money windfalls. These communities need to be rid of drugs. They need bolstered education. Education system needs to involve not only improvements in curriculum, but also basics of personal finance, work with parents who were living in the communities for generations so that they can better lead their children by example. Systemic and institutionalized work on involving the youth of those communities into making them better, improving homes, maintaining clean streets.

And this is a lot of work for many years. Yearly payments or other quick things won't solve anything. There are no fast and easy solutions here.

One of the problems I've watched develop over the past 50+ years is the efforts of the 'welfare' system to destroy the family concept for the recipients of government assistance.

Basically, the system provides assistance to mothers to help have 'decent' housing for children when the family is financially unable to support housing costs. But starting in the 1960's the system was set so that the father of the children could not live with the family.

Personally, I think this has a lot to do problems among young children of the poor. (Note - in almost every state, the last time I looked in the mid 2000's more Caucasians received such government assistance than Blacks or Hispanics.)

If the children do not have father figures to provide a positive example, do not have a somewhat stable home, they cannot 'learn' values which prevent much of the problems we see. This system also prevents parental supervision and efforts to prevent such things as drug use, petty theft, poor education, etc.

Education is the key, and unless the parents put a priority on education, the child is handicapped from the start. No matter the level of native intelligence.

Reparations will do NOTHING to fix a problem. Those are 'free' money with no value in that the person receiving the money has not invested anything in an effort to obtain the money. If there must be something along that line, I vastly prefer the money to be focused on education.

Reparations, of the direct cash payment variety, can make sense when you can compensate those who have suffered directly from a specific injustice like slavery...e.g. the reparations paid for the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. The time for slavery reparations was right after the Civil War. A direct payment reparation scheme today would not be practical, among several other considerations:

1) If you're of the mindset, like I am, that there are more systemic obstacles that can affect black Americans, simply writing a check is not a solution to those more embedded issues.

2) There are fundamental constitutional and fairness questions about forcing other minorities and people of color, who also face their own unique challenges, to transfer their wealth to a new favored group.

3) Questions around affordability.

4) Administrative questions. What are the guidelines? Which black Americans qualify since not all black Americans are slave descendants, and not all of them are impoverished.

Why is it so difficult for the United States to say "yeah, we made a mistake for hundreds of years. Our bad. We will try to be better" and actually trying with real laws. Sure some people want cash. But that is not going to happen. But simply saying "We made a mistake and we will change" and ACTUALLY WORKING ON CHANGING is something. Acknowledging human beings as human beings and acknowledging their ancestors as humans is better than sitting on their neck while others sit there and watch.

seb146 wrote:

Why is it so difficult for the United States to say "yeah, we made a mistake for hundreds of years. Our bad. We will try to be better" and actually trying with real laws. Sure some people want cash. But that is not going to happen. But simply saying "We made a mistake and we will change" and ACTUALLY WORKING ON CHANGING is something. Acknowledging human beings as human beings and acknowledging their ancestors as humans is better than sitting on their neck while others sit there and watch.

cash won´t do much, need to be a sustainable wealth increase increase program to make up for blacks having had the short straw when land was dealt out via the homestead act and such.

Trevor Noah, as a South African uniquely qualified, puts it best i think, in just about 4 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjTu1NmQLP8&

best regards
Thomas

seb146 wrote:

Why is it so difficult for the United States to say "yeah, we made a mistake for hundreds of years. Our bad. We will try to be better" and actually trying with real laws. Sure some people want cash. But that is not going to happen. But simply saying "We made a mistake and we will change" and ACTUALLY WORKING ON CHANGING is something. Acknowledging human beings as human beings and acknowledging their ancestors as humans is better than sitting on their neck while others sit there and watch.

Problem is how do you change something so fundamental, deeply integrated into mind and culture of people, without doing a full cultural cleansing. Law alone is not going to fix that.

Pi7472000 wrote:

It is apparent that another piece of systematic racism in this country is the economic inequality and discrimination that blacks have faced. They have had to sacrifice so much economically for whites. What is the best way to set up reparations to Mitigate this form of systematic racism? Should it be a yearly payment, a tax credit, or maybe free college?

What suggestions do you have to stop economic, systematic racism in the U.S.?

It's just a ridiculous idea,but if you're going to go there and start handing out free money to black people, you need to help ingenious Americans first, Indians and Hawaiians should be first in line for any reparations.

The next issue is which black people would get the free money? Would it just be a blanket payment for all blacks? What about black people in the US who have come from Haiti or Jamaica, or even someone like Obama, or the Rock?

tommy1808 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Why is it so difficult for the United States to say "yeah, we made a mistake for hundreds of years. Our bad. We will try to be better" and actually trying with real laws. Sure some people want cash. But that is not going to happen. But simply saying "We made a mistake and we will change" and ACTUALLY WORKING ON CHANGING is something. Acknowledging human beings as human beings and acknowledging their ancestors as humans is better than sitting on their neck while others sit there and watch.

cash won´t do much, need to be a sustainable wealth increase increase program to make up for blacks having had the short straw when land was dealt out via the homestead act and such.

Trevor Noah, as a South African uniquely qualified, puts it best i think, in just about 4 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjTu1NmQLP8&

best regards
Thomas

This video makes more sense https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uf_XDFXvzU

Kiwirob wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Why is it so difficult for the United States to say "yeah, we made a mistake for hundreds of years. Our bad. We will try to be better" and actually trying with real laws. Sure some people want cash. But that is not going to happen. But simply saying "We made a mistake and we will change" and ACTUALLY WORKING ON CHANGING is something. Acknowledging human beings as human beings and acknowledging their ancestors as humans is better than sitting on their neck while others sit there and watch.

cash won´t do much, need to be a sustainable wealth increase increase program to make up for blacks having had the short straw when land was dealt out via the homestead act and such.

Trevor Noah, as a South African uniquely qualified, puts it best i think, in just about 4 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjTu1NmQLP8&

best regards
Thomas

This video makes more sense https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uf_XDFXvzU

Didn´t know that one yet. Thanks.

best regards
Thomas

Pi7472000 wrote:

What is the best way to set up reparations to Mitigate this form of systematic racism? Should it be a yearly payment, a tax credit, or maybe free college?

No offense to you, Pi7472000, I don't know where you got that from but it almost sounds like a far-right talking point to sabotage the discussion and steer it away from actual change. I don't think that these protesters demand yearly payments or tax credit for the color of their skin.

What you need is structural reform of the police departments, more extensive training for officers and laws that protect all citizens from police violence. While you're at it, rebuilt the prison system from the ground up, scratch or at least heavily reform the three strikes rule and jail sentences for petty drug offenses. If we talk about actually supporting black communities, we should talk about social programs, education, giving young people a leg up in a system that is obviously rigged against them. I mean watch "Last Chance U". It's like from 100 black youths you'll get one NFL player, one rapper and 98 who'll live a life in poverty and crime. This is not all "their fault" it's obviously systemic.

Throwing a bit of money at them and then make them look like freeloaders in the next election is not going to help anyone in the long run.

Lilienthal wrote:

Pi7472000 wrote:

What is the best way to set up reparations to Mitigate this form of systematic racism? Should it be a yearly payment, a tax credit, or maybe free college?

No offense to you, Pi7472000, I don't know where you got that from but it almost sounds like a far-right talking point to sabotage the discussion and steer it away from actual change. I don't think that these protesters demand yearly payments or tax credit for the color of their skin.

What you need is structural reform of the police departments, more extensive training for officers and laws that protect all citizens from police violence. While you're at it, rebuilt the prison system from the ground up, scratch or at least heavily reform the three strikes rule and jail sentences for petty drug offenses. If we talk about actually supporting black communities, we should talk about social programs, education, giving young people a leg up in a system that is obviously rigged against them. I mean watch "Last Chance U". It's like from 100 black youths you'll get one NFL player, one rapper and 98 who'll live a life in poverty and crime. This is not all "their fault" it's obviously systemic.

Throwing a bit of money at them and then make them look like freeloaders in the next election is not going to help anyone in the long run.

Well, to be fair, there are several high-profile black Americans as well as multiple Democratic presidential candidates who are proponents of reparations.

flyguy89 wrote:

Well, to be fair, there are several high-profile black Americans as well as multiple Democratic presidential candidates who are proponents of reparations.

Ok, do you have more info on that? "Reparations" is certainly a weird word for it. Is it clear what exactly these "high-profile black Americans as well as multiple Democratic presidential candidates" mean by that? If it's spend on reform and social programs like I mentioned, it's sensible.

If it's tax breaks and "yearly payments" they're setting themselves up for failure. That would be so easily politically exploitable...

Lilienthal wrote:

No offense to you, Pi7472000, I don't know where you got that from but it almost sounds like a far-right talking point to sabotage the discussion and steer it away from actual change. I don't think that these protesters demand yearly payments or tax credit for the color of their skin.

What you need is structural reform of the police departments, more extensive training for officers and laws that protect all citizens from police violence. While you're at it, rebuilt the prison system from the ground up, scratch or at least heavily reform the three strikes rule and jail sentences for petty drug offenses. If we talk about actually supporting black communities, we should talk about social programs, education, giving young people a leg up in a system that is obviously rigged against them. I mean watch "Last Chance U". It's like from 100 black youths you'll get one NFL player, one rapper and 98 who'll live a life in poverty and crime. This is not all "their fault" it's obviously systemic.

Throwing a bit of money at them and then make them look like freeloaders in the next election is not going to help anyone in the long run.

A thousand times this. It's so obvious I just don't understand how people don't get this.

In London there was a massive increase in drug and gang activity and a huge increase in knife crime. Most was with young black men. They all had similar problems - came from poor / broken homes, no role models, no obvious / easy way out, few life prospects, poor local policing, little community engagement. So money was spent on community projects, youth clubs, sports facilities. Middle aged black men who had suceeded held talks, sponsored kids. Police were introduced to them, conversations were had. And slowly over time things got better. It was working..right up until a new govenment came in and slashed all the funding and strategies. And guess what, it's back to square one except now it's worse than ever.

The same issues are there in the US but they are worse. You need a proper strategy, funded and a Govenment / Congress interested and bother to change it.

Healthcare, job prospects, education, Policing, Prison (mandatory minimums hello!) ..all need masive reform.

flyguy89 wrote:

Reparations, of the direct cash payment variety, can make sense when you can compensate those who have suffered directly from a specific injustice like slavery...e.g. the reparations paid for the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. The time for slavery reparations was right after the Civil War. A direct payment reparation scheme today would not be practical, among several other considerations:

1) If you're of the mindset, like I am, that there are more systemic obstacles that can affect black Americans, simply writing a check is not a solution to those more embedded issues.

2) There are fundamental constitutional and fairness questions about forcing other minorities and people of color, who also face their own unique challenges, to transfer their wealth to a new favored group.

3) Questions around affordability.

4) Administrative questions. What are the guidelines? Which black Americans qualify since not all black Americans are slave descendants, and not all of them are impoverished.

We don't see eye to eye frequently, but this...all of this. You hit the nail on the head.

flyguy89 wrote:

Well, to be fair, there are several high-profile black Americans as well as multiple Democratic presidential candidates who are proponents of reparations.

Call these panderers. And FWIW, the Squad doesn't represent the mainstream view of the party either. We may be sympathetic to the plight of Black Americans, but reparations are not the way to go (assuming that by "reparations" they mean a check every so often instead of true reforms). Like Kiwirob said: who gets priority for reparations? Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

einsteinboricua wrote:

flyguy89 wrote:

Reparations, of the direct cash payment variety, can make sense when you can compensate those who have suffered directly from a specific injustice like slavery...e.g. the reparations paid for the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. The time for slavery reparations was right after the Civil War. A direct payment reparation scheme today would not be practical, among several other considerations:

1) If you're of the mindset, like I am, that there are more systemic obstacles that can affect black Americans, simply writing a check is not a solution to those more embedded issues.

2) There are fundamental constitutional and fairness questions about forcing other minorities and people of color, who also face their own unique challenges, to transfer their wealth to a new favored group.

3) Questions around affordability.

4) Administrative questions. What are the guidelines? Which black Americans qualify since not all black Americans are slave descendants, and not all of them are impoverished.

We don't see eye to eye frequently, but this...all of this. You hit the nail on the head.

Also, 4B) Which white Americans will have to pay since not all white Americans owned slaves, plus many didn't immigrate to the USA until after* the Civil War was over?

* As an example Ellis Island, where over 12 million immigrants to the USA were processed, didn't open until 1892. Source- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Island

anrec80 wrote:

Speaking of mitigation - let's look at root cause, which is (largely at least). It is presence of communities with weak education, drugs, crime, etc.

That's certainly not a root cause. That's probably Why #3 in a 5-Why about this issue.

People don't just decide to live in communities with weak education, crime, drugs, etc.

rfields5421 wrote:

Reparations will do NOTHING to fix a problem. Those are 'free' money with no value in that the person receiving the money has not invested anything in an effort to obtain the money. If there must be something along that line, I vastly prefer the money to be focused on education.

It's no more free money than an inheritance is. How is it fair not to compensate someone for labor, especially when it was forced? It needs to be paid, with interest IMO. Would you like your employer telling you your income must exclusively go towards education?

einsteinboricua wrote:

Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

TSS wrote:

Which white Americans will have to pay since not all white Americans owned slaves, plus many didn't immigrate to the USA until after* the Civil War was over?

All Americans pay including the recipients. America was built on slave labor, i.e. the White House was built by slaves. It's no different than your taxpayer dollars paying for infrastructure, everyone pays whether you use it or not.

afcjets wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

Blacks who were born on American soil were not given the right to vote for years. They were not allowed the same rights and freedoms as their White counterparts. Even when Blacks were given the right to vote, there was the 3/5 rule (a Black vote was only 3/5 of one vote) and there were poll taxes and written tests at the polls. They had to get to the back of the bus, separate bathrooms and water fountains and seating in restaurants, and redlining on loan applications (which the current Republican leader did and admitted to) and so many other things that oppress minorities. In this case, Blacks.

seb146 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

Blacks who were born on American soil were not given the right to vote for years. They were not allowed the same rights and freedoms as their White counterparts. Even when Blacks were given the right to vote, there was the 3/5 rule (a Black vote was only 3/5 of one vote) and there were poll taxes and written tests at the polls. They had to get to the back of the bus, separate bathrooms and water fountains and seating in restaurants, and redlining on loan applications (which the current Republican leader did and admitted to) and so many other things that oppress minorities. In this case, Blacks.

I am talking about reparations.

afcjets wrote:

seb146 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

Blacks who were born on American soil were not given the right to vote for years. They were not allowed the same rights and freedoms as their White counterparts. Even when Blacks were given the right to vote, there was the 3/5 rule (a Black vote was only 3/5 of one vote) and there were poll taxes and written tests at the polls. They had to get to the back of the bus, separate bathrooms and water fountains and seating in restaurants, and redlining on loan applications (which the current Republican leader did and admitted to) and so many other things that oppress minorities. In this case, Blacks.

I am talking about reparations.

Your original statement that I included was how I read it.

I think people are opposed to reparations also because that would mean the United States would have to serve out punishment for slavery and oppression. Currently we have people saying "we said slavery is bad. What more do you want?" and expecting that to be the end of it. Its like saying "Well, sure I stole the car but I said it was wrong so I should face zero consequences."

afcjets wrote:

How is it fair not to compensate someone for labor, especially when it was forced?

Because it wasn't their labor. It was their great-great-great-great-grandmother/grandfather's labor.

afcjets wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

How could they not be interlinked in such a scenario? The indigenous peoples made their living from the land they were forcibly removed from...how do you reconcile that unpaid slave wages should be repaid, yet uncompensated takings from indigenous peoples, which have also had severe adverse effects on their communities, should not?

afcjets wrote:

How is it fair not to compensate someone for labor, especially when it was forced? It needs to be paid, with interest IMO.

The person who did the labor? Yes. An immediate direct descendant (i.e. children)? Yes. A second generation (i.e. grandchildren)?...hmm...any generations beyond? Nope. Just like genes, the direct relation gets more and more diluted to the point where it doesn't have the same weight. And this is assuming the person has their full family tree available and documented. A last name isn't enough.

@ Seb: Well hell, using that logic, let's go invade Armenia for their hand in the genocide.

I know this is an American topic , but I thought i would add my 2 cents worth. It would seem that people of African descent in the USA and in the UK are constantly talking about slavery as if they are the only people who have suffered but probably that neither they , or their parents or grandparents have any experience of being a slave thank goodness. Now they might have suffered and perhaps still do from the racism that followed the end of slavery, but many people of different ethnic backgrounds whose skin is white suffered discrimination too. Now slavery has been part of man kinds history for a very long time

Roman empire [400 years] It is estimated over this period there was approximately 200 million slaves obtained from across the empire

Middle ages [500 years] Slaves were another source of wealth and mainly obtained from northern Europe. Dublin was a Viking city and was considered the
slave capital of Europe. St Patrick himself was a slave initially taken from Wales

Arab slave trade These traders took about 6 million Africans into slavery over about 600 years

Barbery pirates From the north coast of Africa, took it is estimated between 1 and 1.25 million slaves from the coast line of Spain, France and Italy
Indeed they also raided the coastlines of Ireland and south west England and the village of Baltimore in Ireland had every person
killed or taken as a slave, and there are other example

Atlantic trade slavery Over about 350 years about 12 million slaves were transported to to the Americas and that is north, south, America and the
Caribbean

Now these are Terrible figures and i would imagine there are more examples around the world, but most communities have moved on and this is what should happen today whilst not forgetting the history, which no one can alter and from which the vast majority of the world did not benefit from

Pi7472000 wrote:

It is apparent that another piece of systematic racism in this country is the economic inequality and discrimination that blacks have faced. They have had to sacrifice so much economically for whites. What is the best way to set up reparations to Mitigate this form of systematic racism? Should it be a yearly payment, a tax credit, or maybe free college?

What suggestions do you have to stop economic, systematic racism in the U.S.?

Your premise is your opinion, and not a fact.
Secondly, it is rediculous to let someone pay for something someone else did in the past
Third, you will never be able to identify who should be eligible for "reparations", let alone who should pay for the reparations.

All in all a completely silly idea that only plays into the victim narritive blacks need to abandon ASAP.

vc10 wrote:

I know this is an American topic , but I thought i would add my 2 cents worth. It would seem that people of African descent in the USA and in the UK are constantly talking about slavery as if they are the only people who have suffered but probably that neither they , or their parents or grandparents have any experience of being a slave thank goodness. Now they might have suffered and perhaps still do from the racism that followed the end of slavery, but many people of different ethnic backgrounds whose skin is white suffered discrimination too. Now slavery has been part of man kinds history for a very long time

Roman empire [400 years] It is estimated over this period there was approximately 200 million slaves obtained from across the empire

Middle ages [500 years] Slaves were another source of wealth and mainly obtained from northern Europe. Dublin was a Viking city and was considered the
slave capital of Europe. St Patrick himself was a slave initially taken from Wales

Arab slave trade These traders took about 6 million Africans into slavery over about 600 years

Barbery pirates From the north coast of Africa, took it is estimated between 1 and 1.25 million slaves from the coast line of Spain, France and Italy
Indeed they also raided the coastlines of Ireland and south west England and the village of Baltimore in Ireland had every person
killed or taken as a slave, and there are other example

Atlantic trade slavery Over about 350 years about 12 million slaves were transported to to the Americas and that is north, south, America and the
Caribbean

Now these are Terrible figures and i would imagine there are more examples around the world, but most communities have moved on and this is what should happen today whilst not forgetting the history, which no one can alter and from which the vast majority of the world did not benefit from

Good points.
I am sure we can go back all the way to the Stone Age to find examples of slavery.

You find me a slave owner and someone who was a slave in the United States in 2020 and I'll support the argument for reparations.

vc10 wrote:

I know this is an American topic , but I thought i would add my 2 cents worth. It would seem that people of African descent in the USA and in the UK are constantly talking about slavery as if they are the only people who have suffered but probably that neither they , or their parents or grandparents have any experience of being a slave thank goodness. Now they might have suffered and perhaps still do from the racism that followed the end of slavery, but many people of different ethnic backgrounds whose skin is white suffered discrimination too. Now slavery has been part of man kinds history for a very long time

Roman empire [400 years] It is estimated over this period there was approximately 200 million slaves obtained from across the empire

Middle ages [500 years] Slaves were another source of wealth and mainly obtained from northern Europe. Dublin was a Viking city and was considered the
slave capital of Europe. St Patrick himself was a slave initially taken from Wales

Arab slave trade These traders took about 6 million Africans into slavery over about 600 years

Barbery pirates From the north coast of Africa, took it is estimated between 1 and 1.25 million slaves from the coast line of Spain, France and Italy
Indeed they also raided the coastlines of Ireland and south west England and the village of Baltimore in Ireland had every person
killed or taken as a slave, and there are other example

Atlantic trade slavery Over about 350 years about 12 million slaves were transported to to the Americas and that is north, south, America and the
Caribbean

Now these are Terrible figures and i would imagine there are more examples around the world, but most communities have moved on and this is what should happen today whilst not forgetting the history, which no one can alter and from which the vast majority of the world did not benefit from

Slavery is still continuing today, as we discuss this, around the world. Largely in Africa and parts of the ME, and in the name of Islam.

Facts, moderators, these are facts, so please don't everyone get their panties in a wad about something that's factual and not inflammatory.

flyguy89 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

How is it fair not to compensate someone for labor, especially when it was forced?

Because it wasn't their labor. It was their great-great-great-great-grandmother/grandfather's labor.

It doesn't matter, unless you feel they earned a living and had all their expenses paid and it's a wash. Their offspring are just as entitled to an inheritance as everyone else who gets one is.

flyguy89 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

How could they not be interlinked in such a scenario? The indigenous peoples made their living from the land they were forcibly removed from...how do you reconcile that unpaid slave wages should be repaid, yet uncompensated takings from indigenous peoples, which have also had severe adverse effects on their communities, should not?

Because slavery is worse, NAs have reservations and also access to the cities and towns that were built on their native land.

I know successful people of every ethnic background. Some have had more advantages than others. The really strong people I know (of every ethnic background) make zero excuses for themselves, and see their role in this world as a strong performer, and provider to the weak. Kindness is strength, not weakness. Seeing yourself as weak is a terrible problem. We are all weak, but you have to pursue excellence. Over time, you WILL reach it. It might take you until age 30 or 40, or even 50. But you need to pursue it.

I find this narrative of original sin (against some children) and diminished humanity (against other children) outrageous.

LCDFlight wrote:

I know successful people of every ethnic background. Some have had more advantages than others. The really strong people I know (of every ethnic background) make zero excuses for themselves, and see their role in this world as a strong performer, and provider to the weak. Kindness is strength, not weakness. Seeing yourself as weak is a terrible problem. We are all weak, but you have to pursue excellence. Over time, you WILL reach it. It might take you until age 30 or 40, or even 50. But you need to pursue it.

That's great but this isn't about finding the next Oprah. I also think asking for what is rightfully yours is a sign of strength, not weakness. I realize many of you feel blacks have no right to the unpaid compensation of forced labor of their ancestors so you don't see it that way but I can't reconcile that with it not being ok to pay someone who works for you.

Not a chance. Use all that cash you're going to save by shutting down law enforcement and get some better schools going.

I didn't thimk Trump had a chance but watching this movement along with defunding police departments tells me this might be a piece of cake for the Republicans. Better watch out for what you wish for.

seb146 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

Blacks who were born on American soil were not given the right to vote for years. They were not allowed the same rights and freedoms as their White counterparts. Even when Blacks were given the right to vote, there was the 3/5 rule (a Black vote was only 3/5 of one vote) and there were poll taxes and written tests at the polls. They had to get to the back of the bus, separate bathrooms and water fountains and seating in restaurants, and redlining on loan applications (which the current Republican leader did and admitted to) and so many other things that oppress minorities. In this case, Blacks.

Don’t forget recent African immigrants. I’m for paying reparations to victims of slavery, but definitely not all blacks: many immigrants from Africa even have forefathers who were involved in the transatlantic slave-trade themselves and they don’t deserve a penny.

afcjets wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I know successful people of every ethnic background. Some have had more advantages than others. The really strong people I know (of every ethnic background) make zero excuses for themselves, and see their role in this world as a strong performer, and provider to the weak. Kindness is strength, not weakness. Seeing yourself as weak is a terrible problem. We are all weak, but you have to pursue excellence. Over time, you WILL reach it. It might take you until age 30 or 40, or even 50. But you need to pursue it.

That's great but this isn't about finding the next Oprah. I also think asking for what is rightfully yours is a sign of strength, not weakness. I realize many of you feel blacks have no right to the unpaid compensation of forced labor of their ancestors so you don't see it that way but I can't reconcile that with it not being ok to pay someone who works for you.

No, I don't think a child of one color is born owing money to a child of another color. That's outrageous and vile. I equate that to apartheid directly. It's filthy..

The solution is actually very simple. All those people who advocate "reparations" in this thread can pull their wallets RIGHT NOW and donate money to a good cause involving helping African-Americans.
No need to wait for "someone else" to do it. Or for Congress to act. You can do it RIGHT NOW yourself.
To help you get started, here is a list for 20 Black-Led Nonprofits:

https://www.everyaction.com/blog/20-bla ... ng-history

afcjets wrote:

rfields5421 wrote:

Reparations will do NOTHING to fix a problem. Those are 'free' money with no value in that the person receiving the money has not invested anything in an effort to obtain the money. If there must be something along that line, I vastly prefer the money to be focused on education.

How is it fair not to compensate someone for labor, especially when it was forced? It needs to be paid, with interest IMO.

Slaves were compensated for their labor, under the laws in effect at the time.

I won't pretend that it was a fair or equitable wage. The argument being presented for reparations is not about unpaid labor. No one is arguing that. Even 40 years of unpaid wages prior to 1865, with interest, will boil down to under $100 per person IMO when it is divided among all the descendants of slaves.

The argument for reparations is about the CONTINUING 20th and 21st century racism limiting the ability for black Americans to have an equal opportunity for economic and social equality within this nation. Reparations as an apology for what has been done to the currently living black Americans. Yes, some of that is based upon the history of slavery.

I grew up with legal segregation, voting restrictions, etc. I've been spat upon by the KKK in Mississippi for marrying a 'non-white' woman and having mixed race children (Asian/ Filipina in my case) but it makes no difference to the die hard racists. I've had to hide my children for fear of them being harmed even as toddlers.

LCDFlight wrote:

No, I don't think a child of one color is born owing money to a child of another color. That's outrageous and vile. I equate that to apartheid directly. It's filthy..

It's no different than your tax dollars paying for infrastructure. The laborers happened to black and were slaves, the payment is based on deferred labor expense not skin color per se. All taxpayers would pay but if you're black and your ancestors weren't slaves, you don't get a penny (for what I'm proposing) It should also be a one time payment.

rfields5421 wrote:

Slaves were compensated for their labor, under the laws in effect at the time.

I won't pretend that it was a fair or equitable wage. The argument being presented for reparations is not about unpaid labor. No one is arguing that. Even 40 years of unpaid wages prior to 1865, with interest, will boil down to under $100 per person.

That's what I'm proposing and what I consider reparations, however I am talking about paying them the white man's wage at the time adjusted for inflation which should be way more than $100.

rfields5421 wrote:

The argument for reparations is about the CONTINUING 20th and 21st century racism limiting the ability for black Americans to have an equal opportunity for economic and social equality within this nation. Reparations as an apology for what has been done to the currently living black Americans. Yes, some of that is based upon the history of slavery.

Totally against that.

LCDFlight wrote:

I know successful people of every ethnic background. Some have had more advantages than others. The really strong people I know (of every ethnic background) make zero excuses for themselves, and see their role in this world as a strong performer, and provider to the weak. Kindness is strength, not weakness. Seeing yourself as weak is a terrible problem. We are all weak, but you have to pursue excellence. Over time, you WILL reach it. It might take you until age 30 or 40, or even 50. But you need to pursue it.

I find this narrative of original sin (against some children) and diminished humanity (against other children) outrageous.

Not everyone has the tools to generate sense of self worth all on their own. Going to school in depressed areas where everything is falling apart while being told in US history class that we have ‘equal opportunity and protection under law’ will be seen as a farce in such circumstances by any kid with even the slightest reasoning skills. Add in a negative family environment and poor public safety and it’s unrealistic to expect the focus and dedication required for academic excellence to flourish (the same is observed in poor white areas - showing this is basic psychology at work). Survival and coping with bad feelings are stronger emotional drives than pursuing excellence - the latter is usually possible when large stressors are not present or someone can naturally compartmentalize to a significant degree.

We have allowed depressed communities to fester for over a century as a consequence of the winner take all economic system. We cannot claim there is equal opportunity for kids when they start out until that is tangible at the public education and services level and not the malleable fantasy we continue to lie to kids about today.

anrec80 wrote:

Pi7472000 wrote:

It is apparent that another piece of systematic racism in this country is the economic inequality and discrimination that blacks have faced. They have had to sacrifice so much economically for whites. What is the best way to set up reparations to Mitigate this form of systematic racism? Should it be a yearly payment, a tax credit, or maybe free college?

What suggestions do you have to stop economic, systematic racism in the U.S.?

Speaking of mitigation - let's look at root cause, which is (largely at least). It is presence of communities with weak education, drugs, crime, etc. And such disadvantaged communities (ethnic neighborhoods, small towns) exist all over the country and aren't specific to Blacks - some of them are predominantly white, some Asian, some South-American. And they are plagued by problems that can't be fixed by money windfalls. These communities need to be rid of drugs. They need bolstered education. Education system needs to involve not only improvements in curriculum, but also basics of personal finance, work with parents who were living in the communities for generations so that they can better lead their children by example. Systemic and institutionalized work on involving the youth of those communities into making them better, improving homes, maintaining clean streets.

And this is a lot of work for many years. Yearly payments or other quick things won't solve anything. There are no fast and easy solutions here.

I agree with Anrec80... And I don't say that very often, or ever.

Throwing money at it will not solve anything. Fix the underlying societal issues if you want anything to change.

But, by all means, starting to train the police properly and making them accountable for their actions and exactions is also a must in the US.

vikkyvik wrote:

That's certainly not a root cause. That's probably Why #3 in a 5-Why about this issue.

People don't just decide to live in communities with weak education, crime, drugs, etc.

Many kids are born into families in such communities, and grow up there. You don't choose a family you are born into, a neighborhood, a country. From my experience in moving across countries and towns - most, if not overwhelming majority of people, would gladly choose to live close to where they were born and raised, where they have their parents, brothers, sisters, exes, aunts, uncle - you name it. But that's assuming there are real economic opportunities to establish themselves and support their families, raise their kids, safety, etc.

And this is what this society needs to work on - improve education and living conditions in depressed communities, and make economic and job opportunities go there too.

afcjets wrote:

rfields5421 wrote:

Reparations will do NOTHING to fix a problem. Those are 'free' money with no value in that the person receiving the money has not invested anything in an effort to obtain the money. If there must be something along that line, I vastly prefer the money to be focused on education.

It's no more free money than an inheritance is. How is it fair not to compensate someone for labor, especially when it was forced? It needs to be paid, with interest IMO. Would you like your employer telling you your income must exclusively go towards education?

einsteinboricua wrote:

Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

TSS wrote:

Which white Americans will have to pay since not all white Americans owned slaves, plus many didn't immigrate to the USA until after* the Civil War was over?

All Americans pay including the recipients. America was built on slave labor, i.e. the White House was built by slaves. It's no different than your taxpayer dollars paying for infrastructure, everyone pays whether you use it or not.

Then you have to pay the descendants of the Chinese coolies who built the railroads, and all sorts of other infrastructure projects in the US.

The next issue is if you pay anyone who can legitimately claim descent from a slave what happens when they blow whatever wad they are given? Because you know that's going to happen with a significant proportion of any payout. Then you are back to square one.

As I mentioned before, the people who should be at the front of any queue for reparations has to be Native Americans and Hawaiians, they are the first victims of the US experiment, there lands and independence were stolen from them. To make matter worse freed slaves were given the right to vote before native Americans.

Kiwirob wrote:

afcjets wrote:

rfields5421 wrote:

Reparations will do NOTHING to fix a problem. Those are 'free' money with no value in that the person receiving the money has not invested anything in an effort to obtain the money. If there must be something along that line, I vastly prefer the money to be focused on education.

It's no more free money than an inheritance is. How is it fair not to compensate someone for labor, especially when it was forced? It needs to be paid, with interest IMO. Would you like your employer telling you your income must exclusively go towards education?

einsteinboricua wrote:

Technically speaking, Native Americans should be first in line, given that before slaves were brought, they were the first to experience oppression.

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

TSS wrote:

Which white Americans will have to pay since not all white Americans owned slaves, plus many didn't immigrate to the USA until after* the Civil War was over?

All Americans pay including the recipients. America was built on slave labor, i.e. the White House was built by slaves. It's no different than your taxpayer dollars paying for infrastructure, everyone pays whether you use it or not.

Then you have to pay the descendants of the Chinese coolies who built the railroads, and all sorts of other infrastructure projects in the US.

The next issue is if you pay anyone who can legitimately claim descent from a slave what happens when they blow whatever wad they are given? Because you know that's going to happen with a significant proportion of any payout. Then you are back to square one.

As I mentioned before, the people who should be at the front of any queue for reparations has to be Native Americans and Hawaiians, they are the first victims of the US experiment, there lands and independence were stolen from them. To make matter worse freed slaves were given the right to vote before native Americans.

They can spend their money however they want. You're not back to square one if they waste it, they are and it's their choice.

I think the real issue is single parenthood, but one political party glorifies it to maintain power IMO.
Democrats would rather be the provider than a father because it gives them all the power, self sufficiency is their worst enemy, but this is about reparations.

History is a lovely subject as you can pick which bits you want to believe and which bits you don't to suit your particular agenda
Now looking at reparations for unpaid labour of the slaves,
[1] Well first you have to able to trace your heritage back to a slave and when you have done that you have to trace all his descendants not just you , who are alive and due a share, and their siblings so the number is getting quite large and just from one man.

, [2] Now let us say this is achievable, you now have to determine how long this man was slave as the due recompense are per year of unpaid labour , minus board and lodging . Now if this man was born into slavery then you have to have a share of his parent's unpaid labour, which now has to be shared among an even larger group of descender.

[3] So this is just too complicated so lets us give a lump sum to everybody of colour , but what about people who came to the USA after slavery ended are they due it too, or what about people of mixed race .what share do they get.

Now I could go on for hours with all the question that need an answer so just imagine what the legal system would do with it. No the history is past and people can be proud or sad about their history, but life is about what we do now and in the future that matters

afcjets wrote:

That's what I'm proposing and what I consider reparations, however I am talking about paying them the white man's wage at the time adjusted for inflation which should be way more than $100.

A white overseer's wage up at the time right before the Civil War was approximately $12-15 per MONTH, Say $150 per year. At 1800, the wage was less than 1/3 that - $50 per year. It also included living quarters. Basically a one room shack, and outhouse, cooking outside over an open fire. Food was provided by the slave owner's house. Now you can give me the compounded interest for a 30 year working life out to today. Interest rates on savings at the time were typically below 1% per year.

A prime 25 year old male in very good physical condition sold for about $1,100 in 1860. Slaves were valuable property. It took 15-20 years to make back the cost of buying a quality slave for a work hand. The vast majority of slaves were born into slavery and raised to replace their parents. Most slave owners did not want large numbers of slave children. They cost more to fee than they were worth in labor. And the market for selling slaves was limited.

Of course there were cases of abuse, torture, rape and murder. But that was not the norm in most slaves lives. There was the issue of all slaves knowing they did not control any part of their own lives, and that freedom was a dream. Most were poorly educated, it at all.

In 1860 there were 3,953,761 slaves according to the US Census. That was an increase of % from the 3,204,313 slaves in 1850. At the time the US population was growing by 30-35% per year up from 23,191,876 in 1850 to 31,443,322 in 1860. Most of the population increase was immigrants. In 1850 there were 434,495 free blacks in the US and 488,070 in 1860. If we assume that every free black was a former slave (which was not the truth, many free blacks, maybe 10%, owned other blacks as slaves) the total US population of blacks in 1860 of 4,441,831 is the basis for the starting calculation - no more wages, only interest.

1850 Census Information - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1850_United_States_Census

1860 Census Information - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_Census

Slavery in the US - See distribution table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Also in 1860, 393,975 people were listed as slave holders/ owners - 1.45% of the US population. - an average of 10 slaves per slave owner. While some plantations held large number s of slaves, most slave owners held five or fewer slaves.

The last slaves legally imported into the US were in 1808. At the time of the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation - almost all slaves were born in the US, or territories which became parts of the US. Only slaves aged over 55 could have been imported as infants. Most imported slaves were in their late teens, so the practical impact is that only slaves over age 70 could have been imported at the time of the Civil War.

Slavery was a vicious, evil institution, practice. It still exists. Estimates are that near 60,000 people in the US today are slaves in fact if not in name.

afcjets wrote:

They can spend their money however they want. You're not back to square one if they waste it, they are and it's their choice.

What I'm hearing from black leaders and Democrats who support reparations is that the purpose is to compensate, and LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD for blacks. The purpose of any payments is to provide a method to lift the economic disadvantages of racism. Cash won't do that.

The people need to be able to change their level of employment and future incomes.

In 1890, fully 45% of the workers in the US earned below $500 per year. Today, working at minimum age is an average of about $15,000 per year. We all know that is far below the amount needed to support a single person, much less a family.

Jetty wrote:

seb146 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

It's not about oppression, other than unpaid labor.

Blacks who were born on American soil were not given the right to vote for years. They were not allowed the same rights and freedoms as their White counterparts. Even when Blacks were given the right to vote, there was the 3/5 rule (a Black vote was only 3/5 of one vote) and there were poll taxes and written tests at the polls. They had to get to the back of the bus, separate bathrooms and water fountains and seating in restaurants, and redlining on loan applications (which the current Republican leader did and admitted to) and so many other things that oppress minorities. In this case, Blacks.

Don’t forget recent African immigrants. I’m for paying reparations to victims of slavery, but definitely not all blacks: many immigrants from Africa even have forefathers who were involved in the transatlantic slave-trade themselves and they don’t deserve a penny.

I just saw that talking point on right wing media Fox from one of their bleach blonde talking heads. That didn't take long.

Wasn't the nation of Liberia set up by Americans to give a home to former slaves who could not be free here? At the time, that was a better option. But, now, we have laws that are supposed to work for everyone. But obviously do not. Still.

seb146 wrote:

Jetty wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Blacks who were born on American soil were not given the right to vote for years. They were not allowed the same rights and freedoms as their White counterparts. Even when Blacks were given the right to vote, there was the 3/5 rule (a Black vote was only 3/5 of one vote) and there were poll taxes and written tests at the polls. They had to get to the back of the bus, separate bathrooms and water fountains and seating in restaurants, and redlining on loan applications (which the current Republican leader did and admitted to) and so many other things that oppress minorities. In this case, Blacks.

Don’t forget recent African immigrants. I’m for paying reparations to victims of slavery, but definitely not all blacks: many immigrants from Africa even have forefathers who were involved in the transatlantic slave-trade themselves and they don’t deserve a penny.

I just saw that talking point on right wing media Fox from one of their bleach blonde talking heads. That didn't take long.

Wasn't the nation of Liberia set up by Americans to give a home to former slaves who could not be free here? At the time, that was a better option. But, now, we have laws that are supposed to work for everyone. But obviously do not. Still.

Right wing talking or point or not, I try to call a spade a spade, and as such I would agree with that point. I'll also agree that the laws are not equally enforced. I'm against reparations in general because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube--you can only move forward and do better. I would be particularly against reparations to immigrants because institutional racism or not, they have little to connection to the conditions imposed on former slaves in the United States.

rfields5421 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

They can spend their money however they want. You're not back to square one if they waste it, they are and it's their choice.

What I'm hearing from black leaders and Democrats who support reparations is that the purpose is to compensate, and LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD for blacks. The purpose of any payments is to provide a method to lift the economic disadvantages of racism. Cash won't do that.

The people need to be able to change their level of employment and future incomes.

In 1890, fully 45% of the workers in the US earned below $500 per year. Today, working at minimum age is an average of about $15,000 per year. We all know that is far below the amount needed to support a single person, much less a family.

When is enough going to be enough to level the playing field? Affirmative action was supposed to level the playing field I guess it hasn't. Reparations won't either. I am not going to argue that there isn't issues systemically the legal system and the police for sure. But how about personal responsibility for one..I keep harping on this but liberals do not want to hear it..It is always someone else's fault and especially the fault of the white man.. There was a video I saw of Denzel Washington giving an interview he said the problem isn't the system the problem is at home and mainly single parent no father households mothers working making little money and kids with no direction and he is exactly right. By the time a black man gets into the system it is way too late anyway he was lost before the cops got to him. Until Black Americans stop blaming everyone else and look in the mirror and say what can I do today to be a better person it will never change. Multiple kids by multiple fathers and whites do this too it dooms them to fail. Democrats and activists like Al Sharpton love to keep the blacks in that mindset of being a victim because it benefits them until that changes it will never get better no matter how much money you throw it at. I know plenty of successful black people it can be done companies like mine go out of their way to recruit blacks and other minorities plenty of them at the top levels of the company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0dCvQdt5XI