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scbriml
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:18 pm

kalvado wrote:
IF (and that is a big if) it can be argued that person running away would be dangerous to other people - shooting from any direction can be quite justifiable.


It is a very big if that doesn’t apply in this case.

N583JB wrote:
scbriml wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Like I said, the officer did nothing wrong


Shooting someone in the back as they're running away from you isn't wrong?


Not if they are pointing a weapon at you while they do so.


A non-lethal weapon that had already been fired. It’s the definition of disproportionate response.
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Tugger
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:21 pm

par13del wrote:
[...]while attempting to fire a NON-LETHAL weapon at said police office.

Sorry, but engaging and attempting to fire any incapacitating weapon at an officer is reason for one to be shot. The Brooks death I can see why the officer had reason for concern and fired. It is not a good situation, there is all kinds of bad but incapacitating an armed officer gives you access to their firearm and no officer can be allowed to have that happen.

Now if the gun lobby would just allow for person-encoded firearms, that would be a whole other story.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
N583JB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:26 pm

scbriml wrote:



A non-lethal weapon that had already been fired. It’s the definition of disproportionate response.


The tazers that police officers carry typically have two cartridges and can be fired twice. Moreover, as numerous other people have noted, tazing an officer can incapacitate that officer and give the criminal access to the officer's firearm.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:35 pm

scbriml wrote:
A non-lethal weapon that had already been fired. It’s the definition of disproportionate response.

Already been fired? Where did you read that? I have not at least seen that.

I will ask, if you had wrestled such a weapon from an officer (in the USA? I know you are in the UK) and assuming it was active, still capable of discharging, do you think that if you turned it on a pursuing officer that YOU would likely have a high chance of being shot?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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scbriml
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:05 pm

Tugger wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Already been fired? Where did you read that? I have not at least seen that.

I will ask, if you had wrestled such a weapon from an officer (in the USA? I know you are in the UK) and assuming it was active, still capable of discharging, do you think that if you turned it on a pursuing officer that YOU would likely have a high chance of being shot?

Tugg


It was reported on the BBC TV news that the officer whose taser was grabbed had been shot with it. I’ve just tried to confirm that, but I can’t find any US sources that do and it may have been misreported by the BBC as it seems he only fired it at the chasing officer. So my bad based on that.

I certainly wouldn’t dispute that anyone resisting arrest isn’t being smart, quite the opposite. As a Brit though, it’s hard to fathom how two armed officers can’t arrest a drunk at a Wendy’s without shooting him dead as he runs away. The video was shown here on TV again this evening, and I can see that everything looked reasonable and calm up to the point of trying to handcuff Brooks. It could be that his subsequent resistance may have caught the officers off guard, but the escalation to the point of shooting him in the back would be troubling at the best of times. Unfortunately the timing couldn’t be much worse.

Late edit: BBC now has a timeline of the events - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53052077
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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kalvado
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
kalvado wrote:
IF (and that is a big if) it can be argued that person running away would be dangerous to other people - shooting from any direction can be quite justifiable.


It is a very big if that doesn’t apply in this case.

N583JB wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Shooting someone in the back as they're running away from you isn't wrong?


Not if they are pointing a weapon at you while they do so.


A non-lethal weapon that had already been fired. It’s the definition of disproportionate response.

A very gray area at best.
Using any weapon against a law enforcement officer escalates the situation to the limit. Fighting arresting officer and stealing weapon - even non-lethal - from the officer are two more steps over the line.
Allowing a non-violent offender to run away is one thing, but this is clearly a violent person. Think about it in such a way - what would happen next, after the runaway? I see few good options here.
 
kalvado
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:14 pm

scbriml wrote:
Tugger wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Already been fired? Where did you read that? I have not at least seen that.

I will ask, if you had wrestled such a weapon from an officer (in the USA? I know you are in the UK) and assuming it was active, still capable of discharging, do you think that if you turned it on a pursuing officer that YOU would likely have a high chance of being shot?

Tugg


It was reported on the BBC TV news that the officer whose taser was grabbed had been shot with it. I’ve just tried to confirm that, but I can’t find any US sources that do and it may have been misreported by the BBC as it seems he only fired it at the chasing officer. So my bad based on that.

I certainly wouldn’t dispute that anyone resisting arrest isn’t being smart, quite the opposite. As a Brit though, it’s hard to fathom how two armed officers can’t arrest a drunk at a Wendy’s without shooting him dead as he runs away. The video was shown here on TV again this evening, and I can see that everything looked reasonable and calm up to the point of trying to handcuff Brooks. It could be that his subsequent resistance may have caught the officers off guard, but the escalation to the point of shooting him in the back would be troubling at the best of times. Unfortunately the timing couldn’t be much worse.

Late edit: BBC now has a timeline of the events - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53052077

https://youtu.be/MawQYNNIoZ0
Shooting is at around 28.30 mark, and it is pretty clear that weapon was turned against officers.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:32 pm

scbriml wrote:
Tugger wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Already been fired? Where did you read that? I have not at least seen that.

I will ask, if you had wrestled such a weapon from an officer (in the USA? I know you are in the UK) and assuming it was active, still capable of discharging, do you think that if you turned it on a pursuing officer that YOU would likely have a high chance of being shot?

Tugg


It was reported on the BBC TV news that the officer whose taser was grabbed had been shot with it. I’ve just tried to confirm that, but I can’t find any US sources that do and it may have been misreported by the BBC as it seems he only fired it at the chasing officer. So my bad based on that.

I certainly wouldn’t dispute that anyone resisting arrest isn’t being smart, quite the opposite. As a Brit though, it’s hard to fathom how two armed officers can’t arrest a drunk at a Wendy’s without shooting him dead as he runs away. The video was shown here on TV again this evening, and I can see that everything looked reasonable and calm up to the point of trying to handcuff Brooks. It could be that his subsequent resistance may have caught the officers off guard, but the escalation to the point of shooting him in the back would be troubling at the best of times. Unfortunately the timing couldn’t be much worse.

Late edit: BBC now has a timeline of the events - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53052077

Yes, I had read that the other involved officer discharged his tazer but from what I have read the one taken had not been discharged.

Now regarding how the events were allowed to get out of control? Yeah, I pretty much agree there, it does seem ridiculous that the situation got the the point it did. But That is not necessarily a race thing and I can think that if you or I did the same thing we could both just as equally be shot for brandishing a weapon against a police officer. In my opinion.

But yes, it should not have gotten to that point. In my opinion.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
GDB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:42 am

I don't think some from the US here quite understand how bizarre as well as clumsy and brutal these long running, numerous cases appear to those in other Western Democracies. And I include the majority of which have armed officers as routine.
Then you see comparisons on length of training, the focus of the training, you wonder 'do they even do any background checks and if so, about what?'

The Mayor of Atlanta has now announced that a series of reforms of policing, including in extra training in deescalation.
All well and good, the BBC are reporting now that even the US government's police reform bill is taking much from what happened in Camden NJ.
 
kalvado
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:37 am

GDB wrote:
I don't think some from the US here quite understand how bizarre as well as clumsy and brutal these long running, numerous cases appear to those in other Western Democracies. And I include the majority of which have armed officers as routine.
Then you see comparisons on length of training, the focus of the training, you wonder 'do they even do any background checks and if so, about what?'

The Mayor of Atlanta has now announced that a series of reforms of policing, including in extra training in deescalation.
All well and good, the BBC are reporting now that even the US government's police reform bill is taking much from what happened in Camden NJ.

I definitely don't like the way police operates in many cases. My main concern is not brutality per se, but lack of accountability - which is a precursor to poor policing.
Atlanta case, however, may be a good example of a bigger wrong. Police are pretty open about the case, lots of videos are released - and looking at those videos I certainly don't see brutal trigger-happy monsters executing a poor black guy who just happened to fall asleep at the wrong time; I see a person going way out of control.
If anything, this is an example of being unable to stop at sweet spot and being dragged by the agenda, US common problem. As a result Atlanta is basically giving a carte blanche to disregard police - as long as the person is of correct race.
 
N583JB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:56 am

kalvado wrote:
GDB wrote:
I don't think some from the US here quite understand how bizarre as well as clumsy and brutal these long running, numerous cases appear to those in other Western Democracies. And I include the majority of which have armed officers as routine.
Then you see comparisons on length of training, the focus of the training, you wonder 'do they even do any background checks and if so, about what?'

The Mayor of Atlanta has now announced that a series of reforms of policing, including in extra training in deescalation.
All well and good, the BBC are reporting now that even the US government's police reform bill is taking much from what happened in Camden NJ.

I definitely don't like the way police operates in many cases. My main concern is not brutality per se, but lack of accountability - which is a precursor to poor policing.
Atlanta case, however, may be a good example of a bigger wrong. Police are pretty open about the case, lots of videos are released - and looking at those videos I certainly don't see brutal trigger-happy monsters executing a poor black guy who just happened to fall asleep at the wrong time; I see a person going way out of control.
If anything, this is an example of being unable to stop at sweet spot and being dragged by the agenda, US common problem. As a result Atlanta is basically giving a carte blanche to disregard police - as long as the person is of correct race.


Yup. The Atlanta mayor said she was "rooting for" the guy passed out drunk in the Wendy's parking lot who attacked her officers. As a result she's basically encouraging certain people to break the law because she wants those sweet, sweet pandering votes.
 
GDB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:26 pm

kalvado wrote:
GDB wrote:
I don't think some from the US here quite understand how bizarre as well as clumsy and brutal these long running, numerous cases appear to those in other Western Democracies. And I include the majority of which have armed officers as routine.
Then you see comparisons on length of training, the focus of the training, you wonder 'do they even do any background checks and if so, about what?'

The Mayor of Atlanta has now announced that a series of reforms of policing, including in extra training in deescalation.
All well and good, the BBC are reporting now that even the US government's police reform bill is taking much from what happened in Camden NJ.

I definitely don't like the way police operates in many cases. My main concern is not brutality per se, but lack of accountability - which is a precursor to poor policing.
Atlanta case, however, may be a good example of a bigger wrong. Police are pretty open about the case, lots of videos are released - and looking at those videos I certainly don't see brutal trigger-happy monsters executing a poor black guy who just happened to fall asleep at the wrong time; I see a person going way out of control.
If anything, this is an example of being unable to stop at sweet spot and being dragged by the agenda, US common problem. As a result Atlanta is basically giving a carte blanche to disregard police - as long as the person is of correct race.


Policing here (UK) and no doubt elsewhere, with armed forces, have to deal with intoxicated and often aggressive people all the time.
Many UK officers have tazers, they and others deal with people with knifes, clubs etc, what does not tend to happen is that the person ends up shot by lethal force in the back.

We've had instances of specialist armed officers having, on very rare occasions, use lethal force against someone coming at them with things like swords, as a last resort. There have been cases of this happening after non lethal force, tazers, or baton rounds not stopping them. But even most of these are usually dealt with not with firearms.
But very rare, (I don't count in this, of course, killing ASAP those nutters going all wannabe jihad with knifes on anyone, if you recall they faked up explosive vests so they intended 'death by cop').

There seems to be sufficient concern in this case for an officer to be sacked and a PD's chiefs going as well, from those with far more information of what went down there at the Wendy's carpark.
 
N583JB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:53 pm

GDB wrote:
kalvado wrote:
GDB wrote:
I don't think some from the US here quite understand how bizarre as well as clumsy and brutal these long running, numerous cases appear to those in other Western Democracies. And I include the majority of which have armed officers as routine.
Then you see comparisons on length of training, the focus of the training, you wonder 'do they even do any background checks and if so, about what?'

The Mayor of Atlanta has now announced that a series of reforms of policing, including in extra training in deescalation.
All well and good, the BBC are reporting now that even the US government's police reform bill is taking much from what happened in Camden NJ.

I definitely don't like the way police operates in many cases. My main concern is not brutality per se, but lack of accountability - which is a precursor to poor policing.
Atlanta case, however, may be a good example of a bigger wrong. Police are pretty open about the case, lots of videos are released - and looking at those videos I certainly don't see brutal trigger-happy monsters executing a poor black guy who just happened to fall asleep at the wrong time; I see a person going way out of control.
If anything, this is an example of being unable to stop at sweet spot and being dragged by the agenda, US common problem. As a result Atlanta is basically giving a carte blanche to disregard police - as long as the person is of correct race.


Policing here (UK) and no doubt elsewhere, with armed forces, have to deal with intoxicated and often aggressive people all the time.
Many UK officers have tazers, they and others deal with people with knifes, clubs etc, what does not tend to happen is that the person ends up shot by lethal force in the back.

We've had instances of specialist armed officers having, on very rare occasions, use lethal force against someone coming at them with things like swords, as a last resort. There have been cases of this happening after non lethal force, tazers, or baton rounds not stopping them. But even most of these are usually dealt with not with firearms.
But very rare, (I don't count in this, of course, killing ASAP those nutters going all wannabe jihad with knifes on anyone, if you recall they faked up explosive vests so they intended 'death by cop').

There seems to be sufficient concern in this case for an officer to be sacked and a PD's chiefs going as well, from those with far more information of what went down there at the Wendy's carpark.


The difference is that police in the UK do not generally have to worry about being killed by people with firearms, while police in the United States do. Additionally, with every police officer in the United States being armed, allowing a suspect to incapacitate an officer (such as with a tazer) allows that suspect access to the officer's firearm. There have been numerous cases in the United States of officers being disarmed by unarmed suspects and then being killed with their own firearms.

I wouldn't put too much stock into the officer being fired. Multiple use of force experts have stated that it looks as if the shooting was completely justified. I strongly suspect that within 12 months that officer will either be back on the force or will be depositing a hefty check into his bank account after the city settles his wrongful termination suit.
 
kalvado
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:57 pm

GDB wrote:
There seems to be sufficient concern in this case for an officer to be sacked and a PD's chiefs going as well, from those with far more information of what went down there at the Wendy's carpark.

There was definitely sufficient concern of public unrest - which was totally reasonable, for example the place where Atlanta killing happened is burnt - and swift major action regardless of its fairness was required.
I doubt major actually saw all the tapes as they were not compiled at the time decisions were made. My bet is on officers quietly getting their settlement once media attention goes down.
As for tasers - remember, police tried to use those - but the guy took one from police, fired - and there are some reports that he actually hit the officer. Shots "in the back" were fired as he was turning away after firing taser. Coupled with being on probation for some real crimes, not a pinch of marijuana - which police probably knew as they had guy's name to check that out... Not too far from going jihad.
For me to defend police is very rare - but this is one of those cases where I find it hard to blame them.
 
GDB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:48 pm

N583JB wrote:
GDB wrote:
kalvado wrote:
I definitely don't like the way police operates in many cases. My main concern is not brutality per se, but lack of accountability - which is a precursor to poor policing.
Atlanta case, however, may be a good example of a bigger wrong. Police are pretty open about the case, lots of videos are released - and looking at those videos I certainly don't see brutal trigger-happy monsters executing a poor black guy who just happened to fall asleep at the wrong time; I see a person going way out of control.
If anything, this is an example of being unable to stop at sweet spot and being dragged by the agenda, US common problem. As a result Atlanta is basically giving a carte blanche to disregard police - as long as the person is of correct race.


Policing here (UK) and no doubt elsewhere, with armed forces, have to deal with intoxicated and often aggressive people all the time.
Many UK officers have tazers, they and others deal with people with knifes, clubs etc, what does not tend to happen is that the person ends up shot by lethal force in the back.

We've had instances of specialist armed officers having, on very rare occasions, use lethal force against someone coming at them with things like swords, as a last resort. There have been cases of this happening after non lethal force, tazers, or baton rounds not stopping them. But even most of these are usually dealt with not with firearms.
But very rare, (I don't count in this, of course, killing ASAP those nutters going all wannabe jihad with knifes on anyone, if you recall they faked up explosive vests so they intended 'death by cop').

There seems to be sufficient concern in this case for an officer to be sacked and a PD's chiefs going as well, from those with far more information of what went down there at the Wendy's carpark.


The difference is that police in the UK do not generally have to worry about being killed by people with firearms, while police in the United States do. Additionally, with every police officer in the United States being armed, allowing a suspect to incapacitate an officer (such as with a tazer) allows that suspect access to the officer's firearm. There have been numerous cases in the United States of officers being disarmed by unarmed suspects and then being killed with their own firearms.

I wouldn't put too much stock into the officer being fired. Multiple use of force experts have stated that it looks as if the shooting was completely justified. I strongly suspect that within 12 months that officer will either be back on the force or will be depositing a hefty check into his bank account after the city settles his wrongful termination suit.


We do have armed crime, not much of it, even so, unarmed officers have been murdered in the course of their duties by armed criminals. It IS a risk, So is being attacked with other weapons.
But if the long list of largely minority people being killed, when they were clearly unarmed, by police in the US actually were mostly armed assailants, there would be no BLM in the first place.
Don't you get it? I see the emergence of BLM and other groups as a direct consequence of technology, smartphones, which have recorded numerous instances of clearly unarmed people, being shot to death. Or suffocated. Hence the kneeling with hands raised, some of them have gone that way.

Those who have been hugely affected by these killings have had, these past few years, evidence to show what they long claimed was happening, which of course was ignored.
Putting a match to the tinderbox, the very low rate of action being taken against the officers concerned, at best, they were getting sacked, if they could get that past the Police Union, for criminal action add rigged Grand Juries.

But what about knifes?
From 2015, this shows one instance in the UK, two in the US, all involve police officers being threatened by a man with a knife.
The UK cops had pepper spray, the US ones, Tazers as well as their service firearms;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9TFvh6Xps4

Proportionate use of force. Policing by consent, not as an occupying force.
It's being tried in some US PD's, with successful outcome in one often quoted place, formerly a dangerous crime hot spot, others look certain to follow, it can be done despite the undoubted extra risk US cops have with firearms used against them.
 
N583JB
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Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:06 pm

GDB wrote:
N583JB wrote:
GDB wrote:

Policing here (UK) and no doubt elsewhere, with armed forces, have to deal with intoxicated and often aggressive people all the time.
Many UK officers have tazers, they and others deal with people with knifes, clubs etc, what does not tend to happen is that the person ends up shot by lethal force in the back.

We've had instances of specialist armed officers having, on very rare occasions, use lethal force against someone coming at them with things like swords, as a last resort. There have been cases of this happening after non lethal force, tazers, or baton rounds not stopping them. But even most of these are usually dealt with not with firearms.
But very rare, (I don't count in this, of course, killing ASAP those nutters going all wannabe jihad with knifes on anyone, if you recall they faked up explosive vests so they intended 'death by cop').

There seems to be sufficient concern in this case for an officer to be sacked and a PD's chiefs going as well, from those with far more information of what went down there at the Wendy's carpark.


The difference is that police in the UK do not generally have to worry about being killed by people with firearms, while police in the United States do. Additionally, with every police officer in the United States being armed, allowing a suspect to incapacitate an officer (such as with a tazer) allows that suspect access to the officer's firearm. There have been numerous cases in the United States of officers being disarmed by unarmed suspects and then being killed with their own firearms.

I wouldn't put too much stock into the officer being fired. Multiple use of force experts have stated that it looks as if the shooting was completely justified. I strongly suspect that within 12 months that officer will either be back on the force or will be depositing a hefty check into his bank account after the city settles his wrongful termination suit.


We do have armed crime, not much of it, even so, unarmed officers have been murdered in the course of their duties by armed criminals. It IS a risk, So is being attacked with other weapons.
But if the long list of largely minority people being killed, when they were clearly unarmed, by police in the US actually were mostly armed assailants, there would be no BLM in the first place.
Don't you get it? I see the emergence of BLM and other groups as a direct consequence of technology, smartphones, which have recorded numerous instances of clearly unarmed people, being shot to death. Or suffocated. Hence the kneeling with hands raised, some of them have gone that way.

Those who have been hugely affected by these killings have had, these past few years, evidence to show what they long claimed was happening, which of course was ignored.
Putting a match to the tinderbox, the very low rate of action being taken against the officers concerned, at best, they were getting sacked, if they could get that past the Police Union, for criminal action add rigged Grand Juries.

But what about knifes?
From 2015, this shows one instance in the UK, two in the US, all involve police officers being threatened by a man with a knife.
The UK cops had pepper spray, the US ones, Tazers as well as their service firearms;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9TFvh6Xps4

Proportionate use of force. Policing by consent, not as an occupying force.
It's being tried in some US PD's, with successful outcome in one often quoted place, formerly a dangerous crime hot spot, others look certain to follow, it can be done despite the undoubted extra risk US cops have with firearms used against them.


I'm not so sure about that. In 2019 there were 9 unarmed black people killed by the police. Police officers in the United States are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black person than an unarmed black person is to be killed by a police officer (source: https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-statis ... on-bandler). Many of the shootings that BLM has protested about were unquestionably justified, as we saw in Ferguson, Charlotte, Indianapolis, and many other areas. Essentially, the narrative they are pushing has little statistical basis to back it up.
 
GDB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:26 pm

Also from 2015, this is a political channel granted, from what I have seen I do not always agree with them.
But it's not about them, it's the content they show, the disquieting ones, a homeless man surrounded by 14 cops who kill him for no reason. Maybe the host gets too passionate but the videos and stats don't lie. Unlike too many cops and their union.
Then Black youth, he had a blade, he was also walking away from, not attacking or even facing the cops, they pumped him full of rounds even when lifeless of the ground. So yes, when I was told further up that cops don't 'unload' on people, wanna bet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0f_nFKVoyQ

A more mainstream report about the ABQ police and their seeming pass on killing the mentally ill in two cases, later I understand that at least the officer who murdered the homeless man was charged at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ny0mpmioKg

This case, well at least he survived. Go on, defend their actions;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBAOX6Qegk
 
N583JB
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Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:50 pm

GDB wrote:
Also from 2015, this is a political channel granted, from what I have seen I do not always agree with them.
But it's not about them, it's the content they show, the disquieting ones, a homeless man surrounded by 14 cops who kill him for no reason. Maybe the host gets too passionate but the videos and stats don't lie. Unlike too many cops and their union.
Then Black youth, he had a blade, he was also walking away from, not attacking or even facing the cops, they pumped him full of rounds even when lifeless of the ground. So yes, when I was told further up that cops don't 'unload' on people, wanna bet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0f_nFKVoyQ

A more mainstream report about the ABQ police and their seeming pass on killing the mentally ill in two cases, later I understand that at least the officer who murdered the homeless man was charged at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ny0mpmioKg

This case, well at least he survived. Go on, defend their actions;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBAOX6Qegk


There are always a handful of cases each year that are not justified and/or criminal acts by the police. Statistically, though, this is very rare, which is why you are bringing up 5 year-old videos in 2020 to attempt to bolster your argument.
 
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seb146
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:55 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
seb146 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

Racism is all over. All lives matter, including Floyd and including the qualified white skipped over due to affirmative action. Nothing is perfect. Bottom line: if you want to succeed, you will, so long as you don't fall into the easy trap thinking you are a constant victim.


But isn't blaming affirmative action the same as playing the victim card? If a White person is not hired, they can go back and ask what about them did the employer find was not the right fit for the company. Affirmative action really has little to nothing to do with anything anymore except White people wanting to play victim.


Making observations. Not blaming. Affirmative action is nothing more than legal discrimination, although I wouldn't say it is a total loss if it was used only to ensure black applicant consideration. There are, in fact, blacks more qualified than whites and vic-a-versa. But like I said, anyone with drive can succeed and overcome anything no matter what color!


And that works well in the land of rainbows and unicorns but in America in 2020, not so much. Recently, a man sent out his resume with his actual ethnic sounding name and changed the name on his resume to a more European sounding name. Guess which one was called?

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/05/ ... imination/
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
kalvado
Posts: 2854
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:09 pm

N583JB wrote:
GDB wrote:
Also from 2015, this is a political channel granted, from what I have seen I do not always agree with them.
But it's not about them, it's the content they show, the disquieting ones, a homeless man surrounded by 14 cops who kill him for no reason. Maybe the host gets too passionate but the videos and stats don't lie. Unlike too many cops and their union.
Then Black youth, he had a blade, he was also walking away from, not attacking or even facing the cops, they pumped him full of rounds even when lifeless of the ground. So yes, when I was told further up that cops don't 'unload' on people, wanna bet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0f_nFKVoyQ

A more mainstream report about the ABQ police and their seeming pass on killing the mentally ill in two cases, later I understand that at least the officer who murdered the homeless man was charged at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ny0mpmioKg

This case, well at least he survived. Go on, defend their actions;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBAOX6Qegk


There are always a handful of cases each year that are not justified and/or criminal acts by the police. Statistically, though, this is very rare, which is why you are bringing up 5 year-old videos in 2020 to attempt to bolster your argument.

I don't know if they are _very_ rare, though. There is a good chunk of events where no resolution occurs, but police officer gets shielded from consequences. That includes situation when officer is proved to be dishonest in their account.
I can think of a few such events locally - which didn't make it beyond local news.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:48 pm

seb146 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
seb146 wrote:

But isn't blaming affirmative action the same as playing the victim card? If a White person is not hired, they can go back and ask what about them did the employer find was not the right fit for the company. Affirmative action really has little to nothing to do with anything anymore except White people wanting to play victim.


Making observations. Not blaming. Affirmative action is nothing more than legal discrimination, although I wouldn't say it is a total loss if it was used only to ensure black applicant consideration. There are, in fact, blacks more qualified than whites and vic-a-versa. But like I said, anyone with drive can succeed and overcome anything no matter what color!


And that works well in the land of rainbows and unicorns but in America in 2020, not so much. Recently, a man sent out his resume with his actual ethnic sounding name and changed the name on his resume to a more European sounding name. Guess which one was called?

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/05/ ... imination/


No doubt this happens as portrayed in your link. Many variables undisclosed in that report, however, such as comparing the actual content of the resume. And if, in fact, the argument at hand is that affirmative action works, then these companies in the report have failed in effective implementation to start with, as affirmative action effectiveness can only be measured when the concept is put in place and framed around the hiring process as policy. Otherwise this report is merely one that shows how companies may be potentially passing up skilled workers by discriminating by name alone. One solution: filter the names out before getting to hiring department. But acknowledge, as report indicated, the interview may prove biased afterall. Unicorns and rainbows, please!
But let's not pretend European names are not discriminated against, either, in certain contexts.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22538
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:44 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
seb146 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

Making observations. Not blaming. Affirmative action is nothing more than legal discrimination, although I wouldn't say it is a total loss if it was used only to ensure black applicant consideration. There are, in fact, blacks more qualified than whites and vic-a-versa. But like I said, anyone with drive can succeed and overcome anything no matter what color!


And that works well in the land of rainbows and unicorns but in America in 2020, not so much. Recently, a man sent out his resume with his actual ethnic sounding name and changed the name on his resume to a more European sounding name. Guess which one was called?

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/05/ ... imination/


No doubt this happens as portrayed in your link. Many variables undisclosed in that report, however, such as comparing the actual content of the resume. And if, in fact, the argument at hand is that affirmative action works, then these companies in the report have failed in effective implementation to start with, as affirmative action effectiveness can only be measured when the concept is put in place and framed around the hiring process as policy. Otherwise this report is merely one that shows how companies may be potentially passing up skilled workers by discriminating by name alone. One solution: filter the names out before getting to hiring department. But acknowledge, as report indicated, the interview may prove biased afterall. Unicorns and rainbows, please!
But let's not pretend European names are not discriminated against, either, in certain contexts.


You say we don't need Affirmative Action but I just pointed out that we need something like it. To get people to stop judging people based on name or skin color. And, no, European names are not discriminated against.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
TSS
Posts: 3658
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:38 am

seb146 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And that works well in the land of rainbows and unicorns but in America in 2020, not so much. Recently, a man sent out his resume with his actual ethnic sounding name and changed the name on his resume to a more European sounding name. Guess which one was called?

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/05/ ... imination/


No doubt this happens as portrayed in your link. Many variables undisclosed in that report, however, such as comparing the actual content of the resume. And if, in fact, the argument at hand is that affirmative action works, then these companies in the report have failed in effective implementation to start with, as affirmative action effectiveness can only be measured when the concept is put in place and framed around the hiring process as policy. Otherwise this report is merely one that shows how companies may be potentially passing up skilled workers by discriminating by name alone. One solution: filter the names out before getting to hiring department. But acknowledge, as report indicated, the interview may prove biased afterall. Unicorns and rainbows, please!
But let's not pretend European names are not discriminated against, either, in certain contexts.


You say we don't need Affirmative Action but I just pointed out that we need something like it. To get people to stop judging people based on name or skin color. And, no, European names are not discriminated against.


I would say that depends on whether you're talking about traditionally Western European names versus those of Central or Eastern European origin, but that's a rather fine point and not one I care to debate although I would be interested in hearing from those with first-hand knowledge or experience.

For once, Seb and I are in agreement: Employment applications that give no indication of the applicant's ancestry or ethnic group are a great idea. I'd suggest using numbers only rather than first or last names to list and address the applicants.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
speedking
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:18 am

They don't want a society without police, they want a society with them as the police.

They don't want a society without government, they want a society with them as the government.

They don't want a society without culture or with all cultures, they want a society with their culture.

They don't want a society without religion, they want a society with their religion.

This is the Left, these are their goals, and it always has been.
 
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seb146
Posts: 22538
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:25 pm

speedking wrote:
They don't want a society without police, they want a society with them as the police.

They don't want a society without government, they want a society with them as the government.

They don't want a society without culture or with all cultures, they want a society with their culture.

They don't want a society without religion, they want a society with their religion.

This is the Left, these are their goals, and it always has been.


You misspelled "Republicans"

Look at how much Republicans spend on policing and how intense they are defending the racists in uniforms

Look at how difficult Republicans make voting for minorities

Look at how offended Republicans are when people celebrate their culture

Look how Republicans force their twisted version of Christianity on everyone.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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