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Veigar
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:34 am

LCDFlight wrote:
My mom said, why not make the new police (or public safety) force a woman-only organization? Or, pool the gender equity with fire?


what would that solve?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:22 am

Okie wrote:
We had the police go on strike here in 1975 for three days
It was fun sitting in class looking out the window at all the drag races going on. You really had to be careful walking home when crossing the street.


That was before the great expansion of uniforms on the street. When NY PD went on a "by the book/take it slow" kind strike arrests dropped.... and no one noticed.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:07 am

slider wrote:
As for disbanding police outright and replacing them with whatever leftist gobbledygook, who can least afford private security? Who would bear the largest burden of not having community policing? Yup, you guessed it. City-dwelling minorities, on balance. Great idea, libs. Do deliberate harm to the very people you espouse to care about.


The thing is, let them go through with this folly, sit back drink a few beers and laugh at the results in 2 years time. When it falls over and turns to custard people will be asking for the police again.
 
extender
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:48 am

The police will come for your guns... Not in Minneapolis.

Now you know why those ten round magazines are a joke.
 
agill
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:03 am

extender wrote:
The police will come for your guns... Not in Minneapolis.

Now you know why those ten round magazines are a joke.


Huh?
 
GDB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:24 pm

I don't know if some of the hysterical reactions on here are fake or through ignorance, maybe this example, relatively recently and within the US will maybe inform as to what is being proposed;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHs2uM5F1rU
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:02 pm

The problem is police unions who have repeatedly protected bad cops with long records of violent encounters. Camden disbanded their city department and joined a county department, tearing up the union contract.
 
TSS
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:17 pm

GDB wrote:
I don't know if some of the hysterical reactions on here are fake or through ignorance, maybe this example, relatively recently and within the US will maybe inform as to what is being proposed;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHs2uM5F1rU


Most interesting comment from that video:

"Fake news, Camden did NOT defund its police force. It simply changed the name and 'laid off' and immediately rehired back the same police under a new name...the current 'Metro Police Force' has twice as many officers as the old 'Camden PD' did and more funding because they call themselves a 'County' level force despite no patrol zones outside the city...they get fed funds for both city and county police force...fraud waste and abuse. The only real change has been a reduction in ticket writing which IS a very important improvement."
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
GDB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:36 pm

TSS wrote:
GDB wrote:
I don't know if some of the hysterical reactions on here are fake or through ignorance, maybe this example, relatively recently and within the US will maybe inform as to what is being proposed;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHs2uM5F1rU


Most interesting comment from that video:

"Fake news, Camden did NOT defund its police force. It simply changed the name and 'laid off' and immediately rehired back the same police under a new name...the current 'Metro Police Force' has twice as many officers as the old 'Camden PD' did and more funding because they call themselves a 'County' level force despite no patrol zones outside the city...they get fed funds for both city and county police force...fraud waste and abuse. The only real change has been a reduction in ticket writing which IS a very important improvement."


I listened to what the ex Chief said, the questions, how they were answered.
Excuse me if I take rather less seriously any comment (on You Tube FFS!) headed with 'Fake news'.
We know who coined that term, given who coined it (to deny proven reality, Orwellian style), so I'll go with the experience of the person being interviewed.
It's a dead giveaway.
 
M564038
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:16 pm

Sounds like an excellent idea!

LCDFlight wrote:
My mom said, why not make the new police (or public safety) force a woman-only organization? Or, pool the gender equity with fire?
 
ltbewr
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:11 pm

The replacement of the City of Camden, NJ police department with a new County police department is a possible model for cities considering reform or replacement of their current municipal police departments. For sure the change, with more professional, better trained, community policing, management structures, a change in balance of police unions and the city, all made a huge reduction in crime in the city. It pretty much shut down the many drug seller markets and any new ones are shut down.

No matter the city, the disproportionate larger issues of poverty, poor diet, poor physical and mental health, drug and alcohol use, unhealthy air, lack of family structures, poor K-12 education and discrimination need to be addressed as part of the change our society needs. Some also want monies and staffing from Police shifted to try to deal with those issues. Instead of cops, use trained persons to intervene to get those with drug problems with rehab, go instead of police in situations of persons having mental health issues. Proper use by police of data to target crime hotspots in a professional matter. Take sexual assault complaints seriously. Go after corruption, sexual and other harassment in their own ranks. Like with aircraft pilots, and CRM, make sure other cops can speak out if another cop is using excessive force or bad judgment in a situation.

It won't be easy, it won't be cheap at first, but major reforms in our police and social agencies can pay dividends of a better quality of life for all.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:17 pm

At first I thought this was about Camden, London (UK)....
 
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seb146
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:30 pm

Washington DC police gassed and shot at a peaceful gathering in front of a church for a photo-op from dear leader. A violation of First Amendment rights to peaceably assemble and redress of grievances. Earlier in the year, the same police force gave an escort to white supremacists to march through town with their weapons.

BTW, why do police forces need so many military vehicles and so many military weapons? Why do we have these bands of military wannabes in our streets with so much force and firepower? "but.. but.. but... they might...." well, I might win the lottery but that does not mean I can do whatever I want. I am just saying all this money spend on militarizing the police force that could be spent on things like public education and public health care. But, we need a militarized police force instead for some reason
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:28 am

I have no problem with this. I remember reading a study that showed that a city kept sending it's officer to the poor side of town,
where they harassed it's citizens, with too many ticket violations, too many arrested for trespassing, loitering, etc. In other words, the taxpayers
in the nice sections of the city, police weren't present, they went over to the poor side. They were drawn to that side of town.

stats showed that side of town was bringing in a lot of money in fines. Now think about that for a minute.

they were causing poor people with little money, to shell out more money, because they sent more police to that side of the town.
that's just wrong. get them out of there, no wonder the police are distrusted in poor areas where they do more harm than good.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
Washington DC police gassed and shot at a peaceful gathering in front of a church for a photo-op from dear leader. A violation of First Amendment rights to peaceably assemble and redress of grievances. Earlier in the year, the same police force gave an escort to white supremacists to march through town with their weapons.

BTW, why do police forces need so many military vehicles and so many military weapons? Why do we have these bands of military wannabes in our streets with so much force and firepower? "but.. but.. but... they might...." well, I might win the lottery but that does not mean I can do whatever I want. I am just saying all this money spend on militarizing the police force that could be spent on things like public education and public health care. But, we need a militarized police force instead for some reason


If you’re gonna a War on Drugs and a War on Poverty, you need a military, so that’s what we got. Heck, the small city next to us has a SWAT team, population about 20,000. Nelson Rockefeller and others have a lot to answer for.

Jonathan Rausch has a great comment on Republican politics, “There was a war between Nelson Rockefeller and Barry Goldwater and George Wallace won.”

While we’re considering defunding the police, spare a thought for this past weekend’s dead on Chicago. 85 shot, 24 dead, mostly young black males but several middle age fathers, several women. One man shot at a Metro PCS, paging his bill, shot dead by a cross street rioter. Somehow, that doesn’t matter.
 
winginit
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:02 pm

TSS wrote:
Airontario wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Will MSP be the first city to do this? Has there been a similar city, maybe in Europe to disband the police that MSP can use as a guide? Will be interesting to see how this affects the economy of MSP. Change is needed though as policing has not been a positive force.


No city the size of Minneapolis has done this to my knowlege. The city of Camden, NJ disbanded their police force and created a new force.


Interesting. In the 90s I had a good friend who was born and raised in Camden, NJ, and according to him it was the murder capitol of the US on a per-capita basis at the time.

Airontario wrote:
I don't have the expertise to expand much more on what the new force looks like, or the differences between it and the former force though.


Since that's relatively recent history, it might be worth comparing before and after crime stats to see if there's been a notable difference.


The Camden example really is worth exploring as precedent for what MSP might do. It was by many metrics a successful endeavor:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... department
 
Jetty
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:19 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
Will MSP be the first city to do this? Has there been a similar city, maybe in Europe to disband the police that MSP can use as a guide? Will be interesting to see how this affects the economy of MSP. Change is needed though as policing has not been a positive force.

We in Europe ain’t that crazy. More social maybe, but USA SJW’s are on a whole other level.
 
Jetty
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:22 am

Could it be that this is a plot to establish sharia in MSP given the large Muslim community?
 
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seb146
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:46 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Washington DC police gassed and shot at a peaceful gathering in front of a church for a photo-op from dear leader. A violation of First Amendment rights to peaceably assemble and redress of grievances. Earlier in the year, the same police force gave an escort to white supremacists to march through town with their weapons.

BTW, why do police forces need so many military vehicles and so many military weapons? Why do we have these bands of military wannabes in our streets with so much force and firepower? "but.. but.. but... they might...." well, I might win the lottery but that does not mean I can do whatever I want. I am just saying all this money spend on militarizing the police force that could be spent on things like public education and public health care. But, we need a militarized police force instead for some reason


If you’re gonna a War on Drugs and a War on Poverty, you need a military, so that’s what we got. Heck, the small city next to us has a SWAT team, population about 20,000. Nelson Rockefeller and others have a lot to answer for.

Jonathan Rausch has a great comment on Republican politics, “There was a war between Nelson Rockefeller and Barry Goldwater and George Wallace won.”

While we’re considering defunding the police, spare a thought for this past weekend’s dead on Chicago. 85 shot, 24 dead, mostly young black males but several middle age fathers, several women. One man shot at a Metro PCS, paging his bill, shot dead by a cross street rioter. Somehow, that doesn’t matter.


All these "wars" involve violence and a very specific end result. Republicans declared war on (enter cause here) and they simply took money away and gave to violent causes. Like militarization of police. There was no actual help anywhere. Just brute force. And our drug problem is worse and poverty is worse and crime is worse. Why do police departments need weapons of war? Why not use that money for drug counseling and mental health counseling and domestic violence counseling? Because that stuff does not turn profits for the very wealthy. Violence does.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:09 pm

Jetty wrote:
Could it be that this is a plot to establish sharia in MSP given the large Muslim community?


I think you’ve cracked it! Or you need a better tinfoil hat. :rotfl:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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PPVRA
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:42 pm

California Ammunition Raids Put Innocent People at Risk of Police Violence

The state boasts of blocking 754 illegal purchases, but it wrongly tagged 101,047 law-abiding people as prohibited. Any of them could have been targeted.

“The potential for not just injustice, but tragedy, in such cases is apparent, since news reports describe the raids as being carried out by contingents of armed and armored California Justice Department agents.“

https://reason.com/2020/06/10/californi ... -violence/
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Tugger
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:37 pm

PPVRA wrote:
California Ammunition Raids Put Innocent People at Risk of Police Violence

The state boasts of blocking 754 illegal purchases, but it wrongly tagged 101,047 law-abiding people as prohibited. Any of them could have been targeted.

“The potential for not just injustice, but tragedy, in such cases is apparent, since news reports describe the raids as being carried out by contingents of armed and armored California Justice Department agents.“

https://reason.com/2020/06/10/californi ... -violence/

Just a nitpick and point of note: the Judge confused things in his ruling, the reality is that there were 101,047 times a purchase was blocked. A lot of people tried multiple times. So it wasn't "101,047 people" that were blocked but 101,047 purchases. Still not a good thing but just what is.

Tugg
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DL717
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:23 am

KFTG wrote:
Why do Trump voters "need" a police force anyway?
Your 15 AR-15s with ammo stored in your walls isn't protection enough from "the mob"?


We don’t. You’re on your own though. I’ll get my popcorn.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
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DL717
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:24 am

Jetty wrote:
Could it be that this is a plot to establish sharia in MSP given the large Muslim community?


Well, that will go swimmingly.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
N583JB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:40 am

ltbewr wrote:
The calls of 'disband the police' just may have given Trump and Republicans their re-election as will now get almost all of the White vote. Likely Trump has gone on a Twitter posting rage, bashing all Democrats and likely using very racist language. For sure the calls for 'disbanding' with some Black person shouting it will be in a number of Trump and Republican campaign ads and many will mean massive amounts of campaign bribes, especially from the rich and corporations to help them get reelected. Any Democrat that supports 'disbanding' will lose their next election or if possible, face removal from office. Sadly too many Persons of Color want disbandment as a simplistic way to end the police harassment and abuses on them by race, failing to recognize the need for police,even to protect them too.


Yup. Even most black people I know are adamantly against disbanding the police. If the DNC doesn't get this under control soon, Trump will be given a major boost. No one is going to vote against their own security.
 
N583JB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:44 am

johns624 wrote:
slider wrote:
For those who say--and there are a lot of people saying it, esp in the Twitterverse--that there are no such thing as good cops because they don't stop or speak out against the bad cops or maliciously racially motivated ones, that's even MORE reason to disband police labor unions (and all public sector unions, IMO, but that's a rant for a different day). Good cops CAN'T speak out. The system doesn't give them traction, there is reprisal, and certainly the culture makes it difficult.
BS. If "bad cops" were the tiny minority that they claim that they are, the good cops would be controlling the department and setting standards. Are you saying that 95% of cops are insecure wimps that can't stand up for what they know is right? That a 19:1 ratio. Haven't they ever heard of peer pressure?


Most "bad cops" attempt to conceal their actions, just like most "bad teachers" don't advertise the fact that they like to sleep with their students to their coworkers.
 
Sokes
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:02 am

ltbewr wrote:
The calls of 'disband the police' just may have given Trump and Republicans their re-election as will now get almost all of the White vote. ...Any Democrat that supports 'disbanding' will lose their next election or if possible, face removal from office. ...

I don't really understand this discussion.
One the one side police job sounds attractive for sadists. On the other side how would I react after years of dealing with people who have drug and mental problems? A lot of weapons in the US. Who is willing to choose the job?
Gandhian policies are for average populations. I doubt deescalation works with the people the police has to deal with.
Why would the police union try to protect an especially sadistic employee unless his sadism is representative? Are many US policemen sadists?
Is Minneapolis known for social problems?
The police writes a lot of tickets. For what?

Maybe politicians feel they are too much criticized for police work. Let's show the alternative.
Or it's really an election stunt for Trump.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:08 am

N583JB wrote:
Most "bad cops" attempt to conceal their actions, just like most "bad teachers" don't advertise the fact that they like to sleep with their students to their coworkers.


They're not "bad cops", they're bad cops. Putting quote marks around the phrase immediately suggests its inaccurate, but it clearly isn't.
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Sokes
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:12 am

Is the air choking method helping to force problematic suspects to submit at the next police encounter? How many deaths a year are acceptable to make criminals more submissive towards the police? After all we speak of a country where everybody can have a gun.
I wouldn't have the balls to be policeman there. I wonder how many of those who criticize the police would have it.
But then I'm not from the US. I might be wrong. As one James Bond movie says: You want saint to do the job of a hitman.
Last edited by Sokes on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
N583JB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:15 am

Sokes wrote:
Is the air choking method helping to force problematic suspects to submit at the next police encounter? How many deaths a year are acceptable to make criminals more submissive towards the police? After all we speak of a country where everybody can have a gun.
I wouldn't have the balls to be policeman there. I wonder how many of those who criticize the police would have it.


The extremists want total anarchy. Everyone else is just going along with it because "woke culture" demands they must.
 
TSS
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:14 pm

N583JB wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Is the air choking method helping to force problematic suspects to submit at the next police encounter? How many deaths a year are acceptable to make criminals more submissive towards the police? After all we speak of a country where everybody can have a gun.
I wouldn't have the balls to be policeman there. I wonder how many of those who criticize the police would have it.


The extremists want total anarchy. Everyone else is just going along with it because "woke culture" demands they must.


YouTuber Donut Operator, a former police officer, addresses the list of policy suggestions for police including going into some detail on chokeholds:

DEFUND THE POLICE #8CANTWAIT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymznwY2kbEU
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:37 pm

Pyrex wrote:
I for one look forward to seeing Mineappolis transform itself into Little Mogadishu.


Why? Do you think all law enforcement is being purged from the city? That’s not what’s being done here.
 
johns624
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:48 pm

N583JB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
slider wrote:
For those who say--and there are a lot of people saying it, esp in the Twitterverse--that there are no such thing as good cops because they don't stop or speak out against the bad cops or maliciously racially motivated ones, that's even MORE reason to disband police labor unions (and all public sector unions, IMO, but that's a rant for a different day). Good cops CAN'T speak out. The system doesn't give them traction, there is reprisal, and certainly the culture makes it difficult.
BS. If "bad cops" were the tiny minority that they claim that they are, the good cops would be controlling the department and setting standards. Are you saying that 95% of cops are insecure wimps that can't stand up for what they know is right? That a 19:1 ratio. Haven't they ever heard of peer pressure?


Most "bad cops" attempt to conceal their actions, just like most "bad teachers" don't advertise the fact that they like to sleep with their students to their coworkers.
Wrong. There's a big difference. Teachers work independently in their classroom. Most cops ride with partners and work with other cars. They are constantly in working contact with their fellow officers.
 
N583JB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:01 pm

johns624 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
BS. If "bad cops" were the tiny minority that they claim that they are, the good cops would be controlling the department and setting standards. Are you saying that 95% of cops are insecure wimps that can't stand up for what they know is right? That a 19:1 ratio. Haven't they ever heard of peer pressure?


Most "bad cops" attempt to conceal their actions, just like most "bad teachers" don't advertise the fact that they like to sleep with their students to their coworkers.
Wrong. There's a big difference. Teachers work independently in their classroom. Most cops ride with partners and work with other cars. They are constantly in working contact with their fellow officers.


Maybe in some big cities, but riding two to a car is a rarity in much of the US. Usually it is a single officer patrolling alone.
 
johns624
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:58 pm

N583JB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

Most "bad cops" attempt to conceal their actions, just like most "bad teachers" don't advertise the fact that they like to sleep with their students to their coworkers.
Wrong. There's a big difference. Teachers work independently in their classroom. Most cops ride with partners and work with other cars. They are constantly in working contact with their fellow officers.


Maybe in some big cities, but riding two to a car is a rarity in much of the US. Usually it is a single officer patrolling alone.

Thanks for not answering the second part of my statement.
work with other cars. They are constantly in working contact with their fellow officers
They may patrol separately, but when there is trouble, they call for backup.
Also, the topic of this thread, and where the most problems are, is in big cities.
 
N583JB
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:29 pm

johns624 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Wrong. There's a big difference. Teachers work independently in their classroom. Most cops ride with partners and work with other cars. They are constantly in working contact with their fellow officers.


Maybe in some big cities, but riding two to a car is a rarity in much of the US. Usually it is a single officer patrolling alone.

Thanks for not answering the second part of my statement.
work with other cars. They are constantly in working contact with their fellow officers
They may patrol separately, but when there is trouble, they call for backup.
Also, the topic of this thread, and where the most problems are, is in big cities.


Right, but that doesn't change the fact that people who do bad things try to conceal those bad things because they don't want to get in trouble. That's not a cop thing, that is a human nature thing.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:14 pm

From my work, I see too often senior higher raking supervising and administrative police officers don't get disciplined for their failures to discipline cops under them. or for off-duty issues like DWI, drug use, family violence and corruption. Too often if get into trouble they put them into some less public role, until meet the magic numbers of age and years of service to retire with a fat pension. To me ending pensions for cops or a blended retirement partial pension and 401(k) like funding program would make it easier to fire bad, incompetent and corrupt cops.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:06 am

ltbewr wrote:
From my work, I see too often senior higher raking supervising and administrative police officers don't get disciplined for their failures to discipline cops under them. or for off-duty issues like DWI, drug use, family violence and corruption. Too often if get into trouble they put them into some less public role, until meet the magic numbers of age and years of service to retire with a fat pension. To me ending pensions for cops or a blended retirement partial pension and 401(k) like funding program would make it easier to fire bad, incompetent and corrupt cops.


All government pensions should be replaced with 401(k)s, no reason to single out cops...

Cops do get away with a lot of stuff, particularly if they work for the FBI, but not anywhere near as much dirty prosecutors, and I have never seen a Democrat make a fuss about scumbags like Spitzer or Van Grack...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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seb146
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Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:31 am

Why do teachers and health care workers have to pay out of pocket for their basic needs but cops get military grade vehicles and armament and weapons with our dollars?

This must end NOW!!!

DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE

If the police want tanks and pepper spray and high powered weapons, they should pay out of their own pockets. Not mine.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
Posts: 22538
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:33 am

Pyrex wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
From my work, I see too often senior higher raking supervising and administrative police officers don't get disciplined for their failures to discipline cops under them. or for off-duty issues like DWI, drug use, family violence and corruption. Too often if get into trouble they put them into some less public role, until meet the magic numbers of age and years of service to retire with a fat pension. To me ending pensions for cops or a blended retirement partial pension and 401(k) like funding program would make it easier to fire bad, incompetent and corrupt cops.


All government pensions should be replaced with 401(k)s, no reason to single out cops...

Cops do get away with a lot of stuff, particularly if they work for the FBI, but not anywhere near as much dirty prosecutors, and I have never seen a Democrat make a fuss about scumbags like Spitzer or Van Grack...


We literally just watched three cops watch a fourth cop murder a man. We literally just watched a group of cops shove a man and give him a brain injury because he was holding a sign. How is that even remotely the same?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15210
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:50 am

The militarization of police in the USA has an evolving history from the 1960's era riots, the late 1960's-early 1970's anti-Vietnam War protests, assassinations of public figures, kidnapping of rich persons, the occasional terror-violent acts of 'left wing' radicals. the violent 1980's-early 1990's 'drug wars', 9/11 and mass gun terror events.

Over that time politicians supported 'law and order' policies, to reduce murder rates far higher than we have today and most of all to get White voters in their elections. That led to massive escalation of weapons, a more hostile police force, increased penalties for crimes. Too many states put in '3-strikes' laws where a second or third crime, even if minor, would men a compounding of a sentence for years. That escalated hostility of criminals to kill cops as didn't want to go back to jail. Politicians expanded jails, especially in areas well away from cities, that created badly need jobs in rural areas and allowed for too many Black men to be put away for crimes they may be innocent instead of making improvements in communities

Cops also has mal-incentives to do too many easy busts of non-White persons like for possession of small amounts of pot, hoping that would lead to getting a big drug dealer and in turn to promotions and more pay. We saw the growth of 'SWAT' teams, use of tanks and armored vehicles to do drug busts as drug dealers became more militant, an 'arms race' where criminals moving to using legal and illegal military class weapons and cops needing more firepower to protect themselves There were also too many cops murdered by criminals so took more hostile attitudes to protect themselves. sometimes killing too many persons - especially Black men - as 'thought they had a gun' when a cellphone in their hand or going for in their pocket.

The militarization of cops has reduced most crimes but at a terrible costs that has targeted too many Black persons who in turn have finally said 'enough' and want them out of their daily lives and treat them like White persons. De-militerization of all police, must include more community policing, less hostile approaches, less going after small crimes, especially in Black communities. Have more cops trained specialists for when dealing with domestic violence, mental health problems, where people on drugs, not just put cops out their who are not trained and make situations worse. Yes, there are larger social issues from poverty to discrimination that are complicated and costly to change, but shifting away from our current militaristic and confrontational policing would help.
 
N583JB
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:14 am

Pyrex wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
From my work, I see too often senior higher raking supervising and administrative police officers don't get disciplined for their failures to discipline cops under them. or for off-duty issues like DWI, drug use, family violence and corruption. Too often if get into trouble they put them into some less public role, until meet the magic numbers of age and years of service to retire with a fat pension. To me ending pensions for cops or a blended retirement partial pension and 401(k) like funding program would make it easier to fire bad, incompetent and corrupt cops.


All government pensions should be replaced with 401(k)s, no reason to single out cops...

Cops do get away with a lot of stuff, particularly if they work for the FBI, but not anywhere near as much dirty prosecutors, and I have never seen a Democrat make a fuss about scumbags like Spitzer or Van Grack...


The pensions are in part to make up for the lower salaries that government jobs often offer when compared to the private sector. If you want to replace them with 401ks you will have to raise salaries substantially in order to make those jobs competitive.
 
N583JB
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:15 am

seb146 wrote:
Why do teachers and health care workers have to pay out of pocket for their basic needs but cops get military grade vehicles and armament and weapons with our dollars?

This must end NOW!!!

DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE

If the police want tanks and pepper spray and high powered weapons, they should pay out of their own pockets. Not mine.


The armored vehicles the police operate are usually given to them for free by the federal government once the feds no longer have need for them.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2854
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:29 pm

seb146 wrote:
Why do teachers and health care workers have to pay out of pocket for their basic needs but cops get military grade vehicles and armament and weapons with our dollars?

This must end NOW!!!

DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE

If the police want tanks and pepper spray and high powered weapons, they should pay out of their own pockets. Not mine.

Speaking for our area... Old city has high crime rates and police funding of $600 per capita annually, on par with NYC. Our suburb has less than $100.
Schools spend $20k per student annually, which translates into about $3k per resident across the area.
Moving all of police funding to public schools would mean less than 10% increase. Looks like tear gas is way cheaper than pencils....
 
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seb146
Posts: 22538
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:33 pm

N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why do teachers and health care workers have to pay out of pocket for their basic needs but cops get military grade vehicles and armament and weapons with our dollars?

This must end NOW!!!

DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE

If the police want tanks and pepper spray and high powered weapons, they should pay out of their own pockets. Not mine.


The armored vehicles the police operate are usually given to them for free by the federal government once the feds no longer have need for them.


We The People have to pay for their maintenance, fuel, mechanical work, training for officers to use them. Again: why are they needed?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22538
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:44 pm

The cops are supposed to protect us, right? So besides peaceful protesters being gassed and detained for standing and being shot with rubber bullets, cops and their parent agences have been sued in the past. The cops win.

https://law.justia.com/cases/district-o ... 9-6-3.html

Warren v. District of Columbia Men broke into a home and raped 3 women for 14 hours. The dispatchers who took calls of a break in and the police were found not to be at fault

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/545/748/

Castle Rock v. Gonzales ruled that police could not be sued for failing to enforce a restraining order. The details are gruesome.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 60729.html

After the Parkland High shooting, parents sued officers but, since the students were not in custody, it was ruled the cops were not responsible for their safety.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N583JB
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:36 pm

seb146 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Why do teachers and health care workers have to pay out of pocket for their basic needs but cops get military grade vehicles and armament and weapons with our dollars?

This must end NOW!!!

DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE DEMILITARIZE THE POLICE

If the police want tanks and pepper spray and high powered weapons, they should pay out of their own pockets. Not mine.


The armored vehicles the police operate are usually given to them for free by the federal government once the feds no longer have need for them.


We The People have to pay for their maintenance, fuel, mechanical work, training for officers to use them. Again: why are they needed?


Ask San Bernadino PD why they are needed...those armored vehicles are how the officers were able to stop two terrorists who had just killed over a dozen people.
 
N583JB
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:39 pm

seb146 wrote:
The cops are supposed to protect us, right? So besides peaceful protesters being gassed and detained for standing and being shot with rubber bullets, cops and their parent agences have been sued in the past. The cops win.

https://law.justia.com/cases/district-o ... 9-6-3.html

Warren v. District of Columbia Men broke into a home and raped 3 women for 14 hours. The dispatchers who took calls of a break in and the police were found not to be at fault

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/545/748/

Castle Rock v. Gonzales ruled that police could not be sued for failing to enforce a restraining order. The details are gruesome.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 60729.html

After the Parkland High shooting, parents sued officers but, since the students were not in custody, it was ruled the cops were not responsible for their safety.


What is your argument here? That police don't protect people because of three specific cases over the past couple of decades?
 
GDB
Posts: 13758
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:54 pm

Here's a PD, which needs disbanding and rebuilding, with plenty of those currently there requiring criminal investigation, not just sacking.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... monterrosa
 
N583JB
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Minneapolis To Disband Police

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:16 pm

GDB wrote:
Here's a PD, which needs disbanding and rebuilding, with plenty of those currently there requiring criminal investigation, not just sacking.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... monterrosa


It is tough to take that article seriously when they misrepresent the one shooting they listed that I am familiar with. The person questioned was not shot for "sleeping in his car in a Taco Bell parking lot". He was passed out in his car in the drive-through lane and had a stolen pistol on his lap. The cops boxed his car in and tried to wake him up. They were trying to gain access to the car and grab the gun when he woke up and reached for it. If the news organization is willing to completely misrepresent that shooting, it makes me take the rest of that article with a huge grain of salt.

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