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Tugger
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The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:35 pm

The Confederate flag is back in the news as is basically all things that "honor" that part of US history. Now NASCAR has stepped up and halted its presence at its events and there is a lot of discussion about it and "what it means". As with the BLM movement revival that is ongoing, the issue to me seems to be people who cannot accept and are unwilling understand an outside view. And they are now digging in as often happens with any group being told to abandon something that really like, enjoy, or even love, add in family history and pride and it gets even worse.

To me it is pretty simple, but I am not from "the south" and so don't have that history (or baggage). To me there is treason involved, there is defense of enslaving another race, and there is not much to honor in that. But I also get that people have lived with something they see very differently, that while they know the history, they are LIVING something different, that they do not consider as "that history" and since they don't see that or think that they cannot understand why there is a problem.

But it is a problem. And I think a lot is about to be done and change on it.

What is your take and experience?

Tugg
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FGITD
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:41 pm

A flag for a group of treasonous, racist, losers.

It's only redeeming factor is that when you see it flying over someone's house, you immediately know a scumbag lives there.

Heritage my a**
 
Newark727
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:43 pm

One interesting thing to note is that while its backers cite "history," the most frequently displayed Confederate flag today was never actually the national flag of the CSA; it bears the closest resemblance to their naval ensign. Their battle flag used the same design, but on a square.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:50 pm

Newark727 wrote:
One interesting thing to note is that while its backers cite "history," the most frequently displayed Confederate flag today was never actually the national flag of the CSA; it bears the closest resemblance to their naval ensign. Their battle flag used the same design, but on a square.



I posted this article a week ago.
https://www.live5news.com/2020/05/31/fo ... ng-events/

The history and heritage side of the flag is not nearly important as what it stands for at it's base, and that is that a group of people wanted so badly to leave the US over the right to own slaves, that they started a war to do it.

Recent history shows that the Confederate flag is on it's way out. Every year there is less love for it, and now NASCAR might actually be successful. They originally tried after the 2015 Charleston Church Shooting but got too much negative feedback.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlesto ... h_shooting

Of course at this point, what does NASCAR have to lose? No one is going to the races for the time being.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:52 pm

I don't revere the Confederate Battle Flag at all, but I find NASCAR's move to be a token move and nothing more. Why would they fly it in the first place?

That being said, Southerners love to defend it as a symbol of Southern heritage, conveniently omitting all the reasons Southern states seceded from the Union in the first place. "STATES' RIGHTS"...except it wasn't too much about states' rights as much as it was about the right to own slaves and deny the same rights to freed Blacks.

The fact that the flag became prominent in 1897 when MS adopted it to its flag would have been seen as just a small rebellion from a state reluctant to be brought with the times, but when GA adopted the banner into its flag at the height of the civil rights movement of the 50s, it says all we need to know about what exactly the flag stands for.

Finally, how many non-Whites fly the flag and revere it as a Southern symbol vs Whites?

It is a historic relic, but one flown by traitors. I don't have a problem if a Confederate museum or a private facility that connects to the Confederacy (like Six Flags) flies it, but I'm of the opinion that such a flag does not deserve to be flown over government property at any level nor in organizations that have absolutely no relationship to it.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:25 pm

Raised in the segregated South, the main users of the Stars and Bars was as a symbol for the KKK in the 1950s. Only as schools started to desegregate did the flag become popular with 'normal' southerners.

Looking at the history, Robert E. Lee and the flag were NOT popular southern symbols until the 1920's revival of the KKK. Robert E. Lee Park in Dallas was funded by the KKK supporters as a symbol of WHITE RACE SUPREMACY, not as a revered memory of a noble, but flawed, general. I've always had mixed feelings about Robert E. Lee.

He swore an oath to the United States and to the US Constitution, and renounced both solemn oaths. I can't imagine the feelings which caused him to discard one of his most sacred beliefs.

Maybe some people who hate Donald Trump so much have similar conflicted feelings about the United States today.

My clearest memory of the use of the Stars and Bars was as a rallying cry by the KKK to try to defeat John F. Kennedy. Many local KKK members went from my hometown in southwest Arkansas to a rally at Robert E. Lee Park in Dallas.

The afternoon Kennedy was killed, I saw some local high schoolers driving away from the school, holding the Stars and Bars high as a symbol that White Supremacy had triumphed by the papist President being killed.

As an 11 year old Roman Catholic, it was hard to take.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:01 pm

More and more organisations are banning the flag. Including the USMC. What does this mean for the Mississippi flag? It includes the confederate battle flag.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:03 pm

Alexander Stephens, vice president of the Confederacy, gave a speech called "The Cornerstone Speech" in which he declared

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:10 pm

The fact that it is frequently flown by people who have absolutely no cultural or historical connection to the South really says it all about the flag -- one of the more prominent examples I can think of is Kid Rock, who is proudly from Michigan. As a Southerner, I don't get it. It's a symbol of a failed ideology and a military ass whooping. But I also understand the narcissistic culture of the South, and as such it had to be reinvented in order to save face.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:13 pm

This is a big thing....if a auto race is not NASCAR sanctioned, it does not "count" toward national standings. This would be akin to FIFA not officially sanctioning soccer matches. I know, I know, soccer and NASCAR in the same sentence, but roll with it....and there is a BIG expansion of MLS teams in the South...Nashville??? Whoda thunk?
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:24 pm

bhill wrote:
This is a big thing....if a auto race is not NASCAR sanctioned, it does not "count" toward national standings. This would be akin to FIFA not officially sanctioning soccer matches. I know, I know, soccer and NASCAR in the same sentence, but roll with it....and there is a BIG expansion of MLS teams in the South...Nashville??? Whoda thunk?

So you made me go look and i found this:
Image
https://www.times-news.com/cnhi_network ... e42e8.html

The Star & Bars in Italy in 2015!
The article speaks to why the flag is sometimes seen outside the USA.

Tugg
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:30 pm

I have a program of a NASCAR race I went to with my dad in 1973 or 1974 at Dover, DE (September race) with the American and 'Stars and Bars' flags on the cover, the race was called the 'Mason-Dixon 500'. I believe that the race name and such program covers continued into the 1980's until commercial product naming took over. Over the last 10-15 years the CSA battle flag as declined in being displayed at NASCAR races as its fan base and participants move from being 99% White.

The 'stars and bars' Confederate Battle Flag became very popular in the 1950's in the battles by White persons against the end of racial discrimination and continues as an intentionally hate symbol against Black persons. While there is 1st Amendment rights for a private person to fly on their property or in public streets, private entities like NASCAR and track operators as well as governments have the right and indeed the public relations need to remove it to only in historical context museums. .
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:35 pm

I saw a bunch of them flying in rural homes outside of Prague about two years ago. I asked a gentleman who explained they meant the same thing these as in the American south. It was slightly embarrassing.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:40 pm

petertenthije wrote:
More and more organisations are banning the flag. Including the USMC. What does this mean for the Mississippi flag? It includes the confederate battle flag.


However, on June 9, 2020, Mississippi Today reported that lawmakers had begun gathering votes and drafting legislation to change the state flag.
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winginit
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:43 pm

I genuinely don't understand why confederate symbols and the way they're treated today are any different from Nazi symbols or flags or what have you.

The confederacy enslaved and murdered millions of African-Americans. They lost, and history has rightfully shamed them
The nazis enslaved and murdered millions of Jews, Catholics, etc. They lost, and history has rightfully shamed them

What's the difference? Who cares about their history or culture apart from it being a learning experience as to what we should never ever let happen ever again?
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:54 pm

petertenthije wrote:
What does this mean for the Mississippi flag? It includes the confederate battle flag.

Apparently lawmakers have created a bipartisan committee to come up with a new flag. The 2001 proposal was a rational one: the Battle flag canton would be replaced with 20 stars over a blue canton: 13 outer stars for the 13 colonies, 6 middle stars for the 6 entities that once controlled all or part of what constitutes present day MS (Spain, France, US, Confederate, the UK, and the various Native American tribes as a whole), and an inner star representing the state (20 stars in total for the 20th state).

Image

The one that's currently being pitched is called the Stennis flag. It's an inverted Bonnie Blue flag, with two small red stripes on the side (the blood spilled by Mississippians). The main star represents the state, and it has 19 stars around it (for the 19 states that were part of the Union when MS joined).

Image

Personally, I find the 2001 proposal to be more appealing, though I could understand if people would not accept it because it's still linked to the current version.

That being said, the flag issue will never be put to rest. Once we remove the Battle flag from MS's flag, attention will turn to AR, AL, and GA:
-AR's flag has the same colors (and tones) of the Battle flag, and the star on top of ARKANSAS represents the Confederacy (that star was added in the 1920s, when someone noted that if the 3 lower stars represent the 3 entities that held dominion over present-day AR (France, US, Spain), the CSA was missing).
-AL's flag is pretty plain at first, until you realize that it's a variation of the Battle flag (though the original Battle flag was never rectangular, but square) and of the 60th Alabama Infantry Regiment (the white portion is blue and behind the cross is a circle of 12 stars). By extension, FL's flag can fall under this category too, especially when you look at when these flags were adopted.
-GA's flag is better than the 1950s design in that the Battle flag is no longer on display, but worse in that it's the formal CSA flag when it reached 13 states, with the state seal within the circle. In fact, with the exception of the horrible 2001-2003 flag, all designs have been inspired by the Stars and Bars of the CSA.

And from there, we can continue to look for more states. NC's flag resembles its civil war flag in some form. TN's flag has the same colors of the Battle flag AND one could argue that the blue stripe at the end is reminiscent of the red stripe of the 3rd CSA flag (the Blood-stained Banner).
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:03 pm

FGITD wrote:
A flag for a group of treasonous, racist, losers.

It's only redeeming factor is that when you see it flying over someone's house, you immediately know a scumbag lives there.

Heritage my a**


Yes, and the North was a so clean, free of any racism or slavery. Do you any American history?
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, and the North was a so clean, free of any racism or slavery. Do you any American history?

Well, by the time the Civil War erupted, all Northern states had abolished slavery (North meaning states north of the Mason Dixon line, except MO). New states being admitted were balanced: slave state with free state. Four slave states remained with the Union. The balance was altered by 1861, when there were 19 free states vs 15 slave states.

No, the North was not clean either, but it made better strides to correct the issues than the South. Jim Crow laws might have been unofficially enforced in the North, but it was codified into law and even constitutions in many Southern states. Where the North was already allowing Blacks to participate in society, the South had to be forced to end segregation through a Supreme Court ruling and national guard action.

When faced between picking a criminal who had shown redemption and one who shows no remorse, I'll take the one that has shown redemption any day. Neither is clean, but the former has better promise of being just than the latter.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:27 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
I saw a bunch of them flying in rural homes outside of Prague about two years ago. I asked a gentleman who explained they meant the same thing these as in the American south. It was slightly embarrassing.

So what your are saying is that in Europe, where it is illegal to fly a Swastika flag, since they can't fly that, they fly the Stars & Bars?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
FGITD wrote:
A flag for a group of treasonous, racist, losers.

It's only redeeming factor is that when you see it flying over someone's house, you immediately know a scumbag lives there.

Heritage my a**


Yes, and the North was a so clean, free of any racism or slavery. Do you any American history?

Yes, I do, and I seem to recall that the south, the Confederacy, was fighting for "States rights"... So they could continue to keep slaves, keep people as property. And to that do that a whole bunch of people committed treason and swore an oath and fought for a cause that sought to destroy the USA...

I seem to recall from history that was the main problem. Kinda overshadowed the North not being "so clean and free of racism or slavery".

Did your history class teach you something different?

Tugg
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:50 pm

The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars ... of course was resurrected as Jim Crow 'in-your-face' slam to blacks, period as are toppling Statues which also came along decades later to bolster 'white Supremacy'...only heritage to be found here is the race issue kind & traitor idolatry.

...and Southern heritage, there are a few factors t speak of but the largest is the one thing Most from South are uncomfortable discussing...that Slave problem.
It is by far, the largest component to Southern Heritage. Which most Southern Heritage cheerleaders refuse to look deeper into and embrace as a vital part of said heritage.

It's like the Bible Thumpers who only like to cheery-pick by reading repeatedly....'the good verses'.



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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:37 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, and the North was a so clean, free of any racism or slavery. Do you any American history?

Well, by the time the Civil War erupted, all Northern states had abolished slavery (North meaning states north of the Mason Dixon line, except MO). New states being admitted were balanced: slave state with free state. Four slave states remained with the Union. The balance was altered by 1861, when there were 19 free states vs 15 slave states.

No, the North was not clean either, but it made better strides to correct the issues than the South. Jim Crow laws might have been unofficially enforced in the North, but it was codified into law and even constitutions in many Southern states. Where the North was already allowing Blacks to participate in society, the South had to be forced to end segregation through a Supreme Court ruling and national guard action.

When faced between picking a criminal who had shown redemption and one who shows no remorse, I'll take the one that has shown redemption any day. Neither is clean, but the former has better promise of being just than the latter.


Nice try, but Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri we’re Northern slave states and Maryland didn’t end outlaw slavery until 1864 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves in Southern states. Lincoln couldn’t free slaves in Maryland because of, you know, politics.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:50 pm

Has anyone else noticed the people who claim to be in the Party Of Lincoln also defend the Confederacy? How does that work?
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:06 pm

Dixiecrats :)
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:07 pm

FGITD wrote:
A flag for a group of treasonous, racist, losers.

It's only redeeming factor is that when you see it flying over someone's house, you immediately know a scumbag lives there.

Heritage my a**


What about the current American flag, when it was designed the US was big on slavery, 8 of your first 10 presidents were slave owners, so if one of bad isn’t the other also as bad? Maybe it’s also time to rethink Washington’s legacy, yes he was the first president but he also owned hundreds of slaves and was by account a particularly cruel owner. May a name change for places which use his name?
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:12 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Nice try, but Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri we’re Northern slave states and Maryland didn’t end outlaw slavery until 1864 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves in Southern states. Lincoln couldn’t free slaves in Maryland because of, you know, politics.

In my mind the key thing was/is: Did a state take up arms against the USA?

Yes=Bad
No+not following laws=OK, we can work with you (which is pretty much the truth of the USA even today).

Tugg
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:14 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
I saw a bunch of them flying in rural homes outside of Prague about two years ago. I asked a gentleman who explained they meant the same thing these as in the American south. It was slightly embarrassing.


You’ll find plenty of redneck in Norway an Sweden who also fly the Confederate flag.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
What about the current American flag, when it was designed the US was big on slavery, 8 of your first 10 presidents were slave owners, so if one of bad isn’t the other also as bad?

No.

Tugg
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:22 pm

I was doing some reading on the Confederacy. Obviously what we know is only written in books, but Lincoln ran on what appeared to be an anti slave platform, which infuriated the dixicrats in the south. Lincoln winning the electoral college was the last straw, and rather than deal with a Lincoln administration which would help the slaves in the South (and eat into plantation owners profits), leaders in the south formed the Confederacy instead. How a symbol of a failed state that was formed to defend slavery is branded by many as a symbol of southern heritage is beyond me, and I find it disgusting.

Interestingly enough, the 3/5 law (A negro counted as 3/5 of a white person) was actually a compromise to those in the south. The south didn't want the slaves to be considered people with rights under the constitution, but at the same time not counting them would mean the south officially had a lot fewer people (translation - congressional seats, electoral votes, and influence in Washington) so the 3/5 provision was enacted. Even though the North was against slavery, they were concerned about their own power and thus they agreed to the 3/5 provision (Which was of course later overturned by Constitutional Amendment)

Back on the subject of the flag, almost immediately after world war 2, the Swastika became a symbol of hatred, racism, and bigotry. Based on the founding principles of the confederacy, I don't see how anything affiliated with the confederacy is any different. Yet no one defends the swastika, but people continue to defend the confederate flag. I do not get it at all.

Thankfully Mississippi is now trying to eliminate this awful symbol from their state flag.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:22 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
What about the current American flag, when it was designed the US was big on slavery, 8 of your first 10 presidents were slave owners, so if one of bad isn’t the other also as bad?

No.

Tugg


Why it’s the flag of a country that actively supported slavery, it’s no different from the south in that respect. If I was an African American I’d have just as big an issue with is as people have with the confederate flag.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:38 pm

FGITD wrote:
A flag for a group of treasonous, racist, losers.

It's only redeeming factor is that when you see it flying over someone's house, you immediately know a scumbag lives there.

Heritage my a**



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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:57 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
What about the current American flag, when it was designed the US was big on slavery, 8 of your first 10 presidents were slave owners, so if one of bad isn’t the other also as bad?

No.

Tugg


Why it’s the flag of a country that actively supported slavery, it’s no different from the south in that respect. If I was an African American I’d have just as big an issue with is as people have with the confederate flag.

You are really just trying to not see, as far as I can tell. And if not then I am stupefied by your apparent inability to see the difference.

The flag of the USA.... well for one it is NOT the same flag as it was back then and we do not go around flying those others everywhere all the time, normally only to observe something that is era-appropriate.

But the far more important thing is that the flag of the United States of America represents a nation that is willing to change and to fight for that change. To defeat those that would keep enshrined being able to own people, to have people not count or count as "one-fifth" of a person.

The nation the current US flag represent is one that is open to change. A nation that has grave errors in its past that it cannot change but is committed to working to better itself, and the conditions for its people.

It is a VERY different flag from the "Star & Bars".

Tugg
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:11 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
What about the current American flag, when it was designed the US was big on slavery, 8 of your first 10 presidents were slave owners, so if one of bad isn’t the other also as bad?

No.

Tugg


Why it’s the flag of a country that actively supported slavery, it’s no different from the south in that respect. If I was an African American I’d have just as big an issue with is as people have with the confederate flag.


Good point, and you highlight i great deal of African American angst, which you may or may not be aware of...such as blacks fighting in the American Revolution (northern Blacks saw it as chance to trade bravery for acceptance - failed. And enslaved Southern Blacks had to choose believing the Brits would free them if they fought or remain with their owners - they were not equal because Northern Blacks had knowledge/news of what was going - the enslaved had little to no idea what was going on or who to believe).

Then as an African American, you'd have to look Dredd Scott, Frederick Douglass, Nat Turner, Sojourner Truth and Harriett Tubman and the roles of Blacks in the Civil War...and see how that 'promises made promises broken aka Reconstruction and the impact of that Fubar.

America now included African Americans. Unfortunately there was no support systems in the aftermath. How would a kidnapped brutally abused and sexually abused child kept in bondage for years - no education - how would that newly freed prisoner fare in society after 10-20 years captivity with zero support to prepare them to be self sufficient?

As WWI, Wootodrow Wilson makes all kinds of uplifting promises -- gets elected and brings Jim Crow into the Federal Gov't everywhere he could making matters worse.

WWI,- Blacks tried vigorously to join the American war effort but with limited success.
WWII saw Blacks are allowed greater participation as long as it was segregated.

Jesse Owens' single handed served up a huge political blow to Hitler at the 1936 on his home court - America celebrated the win but the feelings toward man remain less enthusiastic and withered away.
Eleanor Roosevelt twisted a lot arms and ears to elevated Black plight. Even started the ball rolling on desegregating the Military

Post WW shed light on valiant solders coming from war to a home than had no appreciation for their contribution.

The Bloody Civil Rights era brought about the beginning of modest change after 200+ years of oppression and injustice.

The Vietnam war expanded racial cooperation as soldiers fought together (but not without conflict) and lived in barracks or base housing - intergrating more & more future generations.

You'd have heard of all the lynchings, unrecorded police killings and know it to be fact long before Rodney King or George Floyd.

MLK, Malcolm X Killed - dripping in conspiracy.

Obama.

Given that you likely know all this...and if you were the African American you think you would be...you'd probably fall somewhere between the guy who fire bombs a police car in the recent melee to one that knows the history, angry about the history but still fighting for a change of the situation for generations to come. But you can't say what you'd do because you'd lack a huge part of knowing all that and living with it.... that feeling.

That feeling is this - just for a second 'think of your gut feeling' when a police siren shrills the cop pulls you over - stop.

That moment of anxiety clicks into gear every time you set foot out of your comfort zone...and it stays with you until you return to it.
At work, on the Metro rail, on the bus, in the market almost anywhere you go and it never lets up. Until you nail down that level of anxiety...all that history above means nothing unless you know 'the feeling' that accompanies it. It's a feeling that rarely leaves you if you are an average black guy like Trayvon Martin or George Floyd. It never leaves.

Without it, you'd better off trying to figure out motivations of the raging @MeeToo chicks.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:30 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
No.

Tugg


Why it’s the flag of a country that actively supported slavery, it’s no different from the south in that respect. If I was an African American I’d have just as big an issue with is as people have with the confederate flag.

You are really just trying to not see, as far as I can tell. And if not then I am stupefied by your apparent inability to see the difference.

The flag of the USA.... well for one it is NOT the same flag as it was back then and we do not go around flying those others everywhere all the time, normally only to observe something that is era-appropriate.

But the far more important thing is that the flag of the United States of America represents a nation that is willing to change and to fight for that change. To defeat those that would keep enshrined being able to own people, to have people not count or count as "one-fifth" of a person.

The nation the current US flag represent is one that is open to change. A nation that has grave errors in its past that it cannot change but is committed to working to better itself, and the conditions for its people.

It is a VERY different flag from the "Star & Bars".

Tugg


Ok there are more stars on it today than back in Washington’s day.

As for the rest of you propaganda that’s all bs you were taught in school, the US hasn’t changed hence the BLM movement.

When was the last time the average Americans standards of living improved? By betterment you must mean the betterment of the 1%, not everyone else. Your govts (of both strips) are pretty good at keeping people down, making it difficult to vote, changing electoral boundaries.

The US hasn’t been a shining light for the entirety of my life.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:41 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Ok there are more stars on it today then back in Washington’s day.

As for the rest of you propaganda that’s all bs you were taught in school, the US hasn’t changed hence the BLM movement.

When was the last time the average Americans standards of living improved? By betterment you must mean the betterment of the 1%, not everyone else. Your govts (of both strips) are pretty good at keeping people down, making it difficult to vote, changing electoral boundaries.

The US hasn’t been a shining light for the entirety of my life.

Keep on on going! You might make something out of this, just not a point. You are trying to create your own propaganda.

Seriously, so you are claiming that since the time of the Civil War average Americans standard of living has not improved?

And regarding the BLM, it exists precisely because thing HAVE changed and there is widespread support for the changes they are seeking to the unfairness they have experienced for so long.

And as to "governments begin good at"... that is a global thing. Most all governments have some element they are suppressing or trying to ignore. The question is that designed into the nation in their laws and their foundational "carta"?

You seem intent to pretend the USA is supposed to be perfect or never have had terrible civil struggles and failures. I think if you open your eyes and are honest you will find that most all nations suffer from a past with some pretty bad things in it. The USA is not perfect, far from it, but it is a decent place to live and the people can make a difference and can work toward their own goals and have a voice in the government.

And the USA does not need to be your shining light. You need to find your own light, find what you value and want and pursue that, the USA is not forcing you to do anything or to believe in it. To imagine that people are just believing propaganda... well that is you believing propaganda on your own. :wave:

Tugg
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:39 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, and the North was a so clean, free of any racism or slavery. Do you any American history?

Well, by the time the Civil War erupted, all Northern states had abolished slavery (North meaning states north of the Mason Dixon line, except MO). New states being admitted were balanced: slave state with free state. Four slave states remained with the Union. The balance was altered by 1861, when there were 19 free states vs 15 slave states.

No, the North was not clean either, but it made better strides to correct the issues than the South. Jim Crow laws might have been unofficially enforced in the North, but it was codified into law and even constitutions in many Southern states. Where the North was already allowing Blacks to participate in society, the South had to be forced to end segregation through a Supreme Court ruling and national guard action.

When faced between picking a criminal who had shown redemption and one who shows no remorse, I'll take the one that has shown redemption any day. Neither is clean, but the former has better promise of being just than the latter.


Nice try, but Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri we’re Northern slave states and Maryland didn’t end outlaw slavery until 1864 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves in Southern states. Lincoln couldn’t free slaves in Maryland because of, you know, politics.


Things don’t change overnight because of, you know, politics. That doesn’t change that the Civil War had a clear result - the Union army, today’s army, was the victor. The renegades did not prevail and were on the wrong side of basic human decency. That’s all you need to know.

This southern dude’s take on the issue is excellent:

https://twitter.com/brentterhune/status ... 17224?s=21
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:35 am

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Well, by the time the Civil War erupted, all Northern states had abolished slavery (North meaning states north of the Mason Dixon line, except MO). New states being admitted were balanced: slave state with free state. Four slave states remained with the Union. The balance was altered by 1861, when there were 19 free states vs 15 slave states.

No, the North was not clean either, but it made better strides to correct the issues than the South. Jim Crow laws might have been unofficially enforced in the North, but it was codified into law and even constitutions in many Southern states. Where the North was already allowing Blacks to participate in society, the South had to be forced to end segregation through a Supreme Court ruling and national guard action.

When faced between picking a criminal who had shown redemption and one who shows no remorse, I'll take the one that has shown redemption any day. Neither is clean, but the former has better promise of being just than the latter.


Nice try, but Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri we’re Northern slave states and Maryland didn’t end outlaw slavery until 1864 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves in Southern states. Lincoln couldn’t free slaves in Maryland because of, you know, politics.


Things don’t change overnight because of, you know, politics. That doesn’t change that the Civil War had a clear result - the Union army, today’s army, was the victor. The renegades did not prevail and were on the wrong side of basic human decency. That’s all you need to know.

This southern dude’s take on the issue is excellent:

https://twitter.com/brentterhune/status ... 17224?s=21


You might look into current military recruitment patterns. Hint: today’s military is geographically the CSA Army.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:39 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Nice try, but Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri we’re Northern slave states and Maryland didn’t end outlaw slavery until 1864 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves in Southern states. Lincoln couldn’t free slaves in Maryland because of, you know, politics.


Things don’t change overnight because of, you know, politics. That doesn’t change that the Civil War had a clear result - the Union army, today’s army, was the victor. The renegades did not prevail and were on the wrong side of basic human decency. That’s all you need to know.

This southern dude’s take on the issue is excellent:

https://twitter.com/brentterhune/status ... 17224?s=21


You might look into current military recruitment patterns. Hint: today’s military is geographically the CSA Army.


Uh huh...and? They swear an oath to the Constitution of the USA, not CSA.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:13 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
What about the current American flag, when it was designed the US was big on slavery, 8 of your first 10 presidents were slave owners, so if one of bad isn’t the other also as bad?

No.

Tugg


Why it’s the flag of a country that actively supported slavery, it’s no different from the south in that respect. If I was an African American I’d have just as big an issue with is as people have with the confederate flag.

Kind of an obtuse take on it, no?

The difference is that the CSA was established and attempted to fight a secessionist war almost exclusively for slavery. And of course don't forget that slavery in the Americas was a system constructed by the European colonizers...so with your thinking, the UK should also look at changing its flag (along with any other flag using the union jack) as well as France, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, etc.
 
TSS
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:18 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
-AL's flag is pretty plain at first, until you realize that it's a variation of the Battle flag (though the original Battle flag was never rectangular, but square) and of the 60th Alabama Infantry Regiment (the white portion is blue and behind the cross is a circle of 12 stars). By extension, FL's flag can fall under this category too, especially when you look at when these flags were adopted.


Okay, how do you get that the Alabama state flag

Image

Is a version of any one of these Confederate battle flags?

Image

Or is there a Confederate battle flag missing from that collection?

A better case could be made that the EU flag

Image

Was inspired by the Confederate "Navy Jack".
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:04 am

TSS wrote:
Okay, how do you get that the Alabama state flag

Is a version of any one of these Confederate battle flags?


Look at the Southern Cross Army of Tennessee flag. Remove the stars, make the cross red, remove the white outline, and make the red background white. Ta-da!

TSS wrote:
Or is there a Confederate battle flag missing from that collection?

There are flags of the Confederacy (the nation), Battle flags OF the Confederacy (the national army), and there are Regiment Flags (units from each of the states). This is the flag of the 60th Alabama Infantry Regiment.
Image
Take away the stars and paint the blue white and there you have Alabama's current flag (the cross obviously red...the picture shows it faded).
Last edited by einsteinboricua on Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pellegrine
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:07 am

Only solution: Tear it all down.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:31 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Nice try, but Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri we’re Northern slave states and Maryland didn’t end outlaw slavery until 1864 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves in Southern states. Lincoln couldn’t free slaves in Maryland because of, you know, politics.

You may wanna read up a bit more on history. The balance of power was between slave (generally Southern) and free (generally Northern) states. Yes, initially, some Northern states allowed slavery, but over time, they became free states and formed a block in the same manner that Southern states retained it and formed their block. DE, KY, MD, and MO were considered slave states (therefore Southern states). That they stuck with the Union doesn't alter the fact that they were unique in what was otherwise a group of free states (even then, they aren't considered Northern states, but border states instead). These border states were and still are considered Southern states (MO being the exception, now being grouped as a Midwestern state, and adding WV to the mix as it was also a border state but with emancipation as a condition for statehood). Check the Census Regions.
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flyguy89
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:04 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
TSS wrote:
Okay, how do you get that the Alabama state flag

Is a version of any one of these Confederate battle flags?


Look at the Southern Cross Army of Tennessee flag. Remove the stars, make the cross red, remove the white outline, and make the red background white. Ta-da!

That's quite a bit manipulation!

The reality is the state flag of Alabama is just a simple St. Andrew's cross on a white background. Pretty uncontroversial.
 
jetwet1
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:20 am

As someone who was not raised in the US, but has spent the majority of their life here, the addiction a part of the population has to the confederate flag has been saddening.

How someone can claim to love their country while celebrating the flag of the people who caught against that country is beyond me.
Of course, if the south had won, we would have a different view, but, to the victors go the spoils of war.
 
Sokes
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:21 am

I believe Americans from the North shouldn't criticize the flag. You will just provoke a blow back.
It's good if Southern Whites criticize it.
The attitude will change by actions of White supremacist, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylann_Roof
Nobody wants to be stupid, so nothing beats humor. What defeats racism:
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Tugger wrote:
The nation the current US flag represent is one that is open to change. A nation that has grave errors in its past that it cannot change but is committed to working to better itself, and the conditions for its people.

It is a VERY different flag from the "Star & Bars".

Tugg

Unfortunately somebody from the South could say just the same: See how much racism there was in the 1950s and how we changed.
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Sokes
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:24 am

rfields5421 wrote:
My clearest memory of the use of the Stars and Bars was as a rallying cry by the KKK to try to defeat John F. Kennedy. Many local KKK members went from my hometown in southwest Arkansas to a rally at Robert E. Lee Park in Dallas.

The afternoon Kennedy was killed, I saw some local high schoolers driving away from the school, holding the Stars and Bars high as a symbol that White Supremacy had triumphed by the papist President being killed.

As an 11 year old Roman Catholic, it was hard to take.

As usual I love your comment.
I can feel your pain. It's such testimonies from Southern Whites to Southern Whites that can bring a change.
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TSS
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:56 am

flyguy89 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
TSS wrote:
Okay, how do you get that the Alabama state flag

Is a version of any one of these Confederate battle flags?


Look at the Southern Cross Army of Tennessee flag. Remove the stars, make the cross red, remove the white outline, and make the red background white. Ta-da!


That's quite a bit manipulation!


Indeed. The simple fact is that not every flag featuring a "saltire" (in layman's terms, a big ol' "X") is related to the Confederacy or to any Confederate flag.

flyguy89 wrote:
The reality is the state flag of Alabama is just a simple St. Andrew's cross on a white background. Pretty uncontroversial.


Yep, the Alabama flag is basically St. Patrick's cross, usually but not always with the red portion rendered in crimson rather than in scarlet.

Image
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stl07
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:00 am

What I never understand is that whenever we remove a confederate statue here in St. Louis, we have all sorts of "history buffs" come in and make a big ruckus about how we should not delete our history, but whenever we bulldoze historical buildings of actual value in favor of taxpayer-funded vanity "urban revival" skyscraper projects, you don't hear a peep from any of these "history buffs" proving what it is all really about
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:11 am

It's probably about time the US split into 2 or 3 separate countries.
 
TSS
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:14 am

stl07 wrote:
What I never understand is that whenever we remove a confederate statue here in St. Louis, we have all sorts of "history buffs" come in and make a big ruckus about how we should not delete our history, but whenever we bulldoze historical buildings of actual value in favor of taxpayer-funded vanity "urban revival" skyscraper projects, you don't hear a peep from any of these "history buffs" proving what it is all really about


Yep, money. It doesn't cost anyone anything extra to allow a statue to remain in it's current location, but rehabilitating or restoring a historic building can easily cost a fortune... in fact, it's a rare exception when it doesn't. Even assuming that said building has been reasonably well-maintained and doesn't have serious issues like termite damage, water damage, or a crumbling/subsiding foundation, bringing it up to current code for public occupancy is an extremely expensive proposition.

Kiwirob wrote:
It's probably about time the US split into 2 or 3 separate countries.


That has been tried before. It didn't work out.
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