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Kiwirob
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:30 am

TSS wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:
It's probably about time the US split into 2 or 3 separate countries.


That has been tried before. It didn't work out.


That was a different time and a different issue.
 
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stl07
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:07 am

TSS wrote:
stl07 wrote:
What I never understand is that whenever we remove a confederate statue here in St. Louis, we have all sorts of "history buffs" come in and make a big ruckus about how we should not delete our history, but whenever we bulldoze historical buildings of actual value in favor of taxpayer-funded vanity "urban revival" skyscraper projects, you don't hear a peep from any of these "history buffs" proving what it is all really about


Yep, money. It doesn't cost anyone anything extra to allow a statue to remain in it's current location, but rehabilitating or restoring a historic building can easily cost a fortune... in fact, it's a rare exception when it doesn't. Even assuming that said building has been reasonably well-maintained and doesn't have serious issues like termite damage, water damage, or a crumbling/subsiding foundation, bringing it up to current code for public occupancy is an extremely expensive proposition.

Kiwirob wrote:
It's probably about time the US split into 2 or 3 separate countries.


That has been tried before. It didn't work out.

I think you are missing the point here...
The new buildings which everyone agrees are unnecessary cost the taxpayers millions and millions and still destroy really cool stuff and we don't hear a peep from the "buffs". My point was, the "buffs" are not really "buffs", they just pretend like they are to defend their beloved confederate stuff.
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flyguy89
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:39 am

jetwet1 wrote:
As someone who was not raised in the US, but has spent the majority of their life here, the addiction a part of the population has to the confederate flag has been saddening.

How someone can claim to love their country while celebrating the flag of the people who caught against that country is beyond me.
Of course, if the south had won, we would have a different view, but, to the victors go the spoils of war.

There's just a lot of baggage there. There's a regional pride in being from the South that you just don't find anywhere else in the US. I think part of it is the white washed notion of the Civil War being a romantic lost cause that many folks there cling to and are thus proud of. Part of it as well is lingering trauma from the Reconstruction Era...being an underdog and bonded through trauma. The South also I don't think was ever forced to have the kind of reckoning with the atrocities of chattel slavery of the sort the Allies forced Germany to go through after WWII (partly because of the times, but also political expediency). Packaged together it all means you have this paradoxical mindset among Southerners of loving 'Merica (even though we tried to secede), pride of heritage (even though it included horrendous atrocities), etc.
 
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seahawk
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:14 am

History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy. So in the end it was not about slavery but about the North controlling the fortunes of the South and threatening the economic survival of the South. That is exactly the feeling that started many wars. So logically the Confederate flag became a symbol of the independence and freedom of the South and right to defend their way of life - even if their way of life was wrong when seen from today, but was just fine for a long time when seen from the time the conflict actually happens.
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.
 
Sokes
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:22 am

Kiwirob wrote:
It's probably about time the US split into 2 or 3 separate countries.

:o Reading this discussion one could believe it. Anyway a good joke. :lol:

"To have common glories in the past, a common will in the present, to have done great things together, to will to to do the like again,-such are the essential conditions for the makings of a people. We love in proportion to the sacrifices we have consented to make, to the sufferings we have endured.
We love the house that we have built, and will hand down to our descendents.

The Spartan hymn "We are what you were, we shall be what you are," is in it's simplicity the national anthem of every land.

"In the past an inheritence of glory and regrets to be shared, in the future a like ideal to be realized, to have suffered and rejoiced, and hoped together, all these things are worth more than custom houses in common, and frontiers in accordance to strategic ideals, all these can be understood in spite of diversities of race and language.
...suffering in common is a greater bond of union than joy. As regards national memories, mournings are worth more than triumphs, for they impose duties, they demand common effort."
Dr.B.R. Ambedkar, "Pakistan or the partition of India", 1.Jan 1945
chapter: "A Nation calling for a home"

I myself don't like what the flag represents. What good will my criticism do?
If some Southern people want to have a symbol of their own, it will be difficult for the North to object.
The less the North objects, the more influence people like rfields will have.
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Aaron747
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:23 am

seahawk wrote:
History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy. So in the end it was not about slavery but about the North controlling the fortunes of the South and threatening the economic survival of the South. That is exactly the feeling that started many wars. So logically the Confederate flag became a symbol of the independence and freedom of the South and right to defend their way of life - even if their way of life was wrong when seen from today, but was just fine for a long time when seen from the time the conflict actually happens.
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.


Yes, the relativist context is appropriate when looking at economic/lifestyle motivations but the moral/religious context is unchanged from now and then - people of good moral constitution were aware then, as now, that basic human decency meant that system of servitude was untenable, particularly given the sexual/physical/mental abuse endemic within.
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TSS
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:07 am

Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy. So in the end it was not about slavery but about the North controlling the fortunes of the South and threatening the economic survival of the South. That is exactly the feeling that started many wars. So logically the Confederate flag became a symbol of the independence and freedom of the South and right to defend their way of life - even if their way of life was wrong when seen from today, but was just fine for a long time when seen from the time the conflict actually happens.
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.


Yes, the relativist context is appropriate when looking at economic/lifestyle motivations but the moral/religious context is unchanged from now and then - people of good moral constitution were aware then, as now, that basic human decency meant that system of servitude was untenable, particularly given the sexual/physical/mental abuse endemic within.


Not quite. In the time of slavery the Bible was used as justification for slavery, specifically the story of Ham, son of Noah, but there are several passages in the Book of Leviticus that deal directly with slave ownership as well.
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JJJ
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:54 am

seahawk wrote:
History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy.


Clinging to slavery in the 1860s was definitely reactionary.
 
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seahawk
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:00 am

Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy. So in the end it was not about slavery but about the North controlling the fortunes of the South and threatening the economic survival of the South. That is exactly the feeling that started many wars. So logically the Confederate flag became a symbol of the independence and freedom of the South and right to defend their way of life - even if their way of life was wrong when seen from today, but was just fine for a long time when seen from the time the conflict actually happens.
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.


Yes, the relativist context is appropriate when looking at economic/lifestyle motivations but the moral/religious context is unchanged from now and then - people of good moral constitution were aware then, as now, that basic human decency meant that system of servitude was untenable, particularly given the sexual/physical/mental abuse endemic within.


Morals evolve. Especially holy books have been used to justify nearly every atrocity in human history and the nature of such books makes it quite easy, as you can find parts that be be interpreted for any message you want to deliver. But the main part is that morals evolve. There was a very long time in human history where raiding, plundering, raping and enslaving the population of your enemy was just the thing to do. Or just look at the treatment of women, it took a long time before they were treated equal to men and still are not treated that way in countries the USA considers an ally.

And when it comes to slavery one must see that the first African slaves were shipped to the British Colony that would later become the USA in 1619. You could even make a point that the triangular trade between the UK, Africa and the USA did built the foundation for the economic strength that allowed the American revolution. So yes it was a long tradition and a big economic factor in the Southern states not only the use of slaves for the agricultural products made which required lots of labour, but also the breeding and selling of slaves. So imho one needs to differentiate between the historic and modern context. A statue of a Southern Leader built before 1900 must be judged differently to one built in the 1960ies - the first is a historic monument, the second is a statue of racism because that comes out of the historic context of the 1960ies.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:55 am

TSS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy. So in the end it was not about slavery but about the North controlling the fortunes of the South and threatening the economic survival of the South. That is exactly the feeling that started many wars. So logically the Confederate flag became a symbol of the independence and freedom of the South and right to defend their way of life - even if their way of life was wrong when seen from today, but was just fine for a long time when seen from the time the conflict actually happens.
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.


Yes, the relativist context is appropriate when looking at economic/lifestyle motivations but the moral/religious context is unchanged from now and then - people of good moral constitution were aware then, as now, that basic human decency meant that system of servitude was untenable, particularly given the sexual/physical/mental abuse endemic within.


Not quite. In the time of slavery the Bible was used as justification for slavery, specifically the story of Ham, son of Noah, but there are several passages in the Book of Leviticus that deal directly with slave ownership as well.


Yes, but we’re talking about 150 years ago, not 2,000. The US was already a republic with stated values of equality under law. Any effort to perfect that ideal would be considered moral and just, as Lincoln surmised, and any effort to *keep* the republic in a state of imperfection would be seen as unjust. This calculation is as correct now as it was then.
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Baldr
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:46 am

seahawk wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy. So in the end it was not about slavery but about the North controlling the fortunes of the South and threatening the economic survival of the South. That is exactly the feeling that started many wars. So logically the Confederate flag became a symbol of the independence and freedom of the South and right to defend their way of life - even if their way of life was wrong when seen from today, but was just fine for a long time when seen from the time the conflict actually happens.
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.


Yes, the relativist context is appropriate when looking at economic/lifestyle motivations but the moral/religious context is unchanged from now and then - people of good moral constitution were aware then, as now, that basic human decency meant that system of servitude was untenable, particularly given the sexual/physical/mental abuse endemic within.


Morals evolve. Especially holy books have been used to justify nearly every atrocity in human history and the nature of such books makes it quite easy, as you can find parts that be be interpreted for any message you want to deliver. But the main part is that morals evolve. There was a very long time in human history where raiding, plundering, raping and enslaving the population of your enemy was just the thing to do. Or just look at the treatment of women, it took a long time before they were treated equal to men and still are not treated that way in countries the USA considers an ally.

And when it comes to slavery one must see that the first African slaves were shipped to the British Colony that would later become the USA in 1619. You could even make a point that the triangular trade between the UK, Africa and the USA did built the foundation for the economic strength that allowed the American revolution. So yes it was a long tradition and a big economic factor in the Southern states not only the use of slaves for the agricultural products made which required lots of labour, but also the breeding and selling of slaves. So imho one needs to differentiate between the historic and modern context. A statue of a Southern Leader built before 1900 must be judged differently to one built in the 1960ies - the first is a historic monument, the second is a statue of racism because that comes out of the historic context of the 1960ies.


Yet, the U.S. was built on the theft of Native Americans' lands. Once indigenous people were dispossessed of their lands, the land was surveyed, subdivided and sold to the highest bidder. The British and American empires dispossessed indigenous people of their lands in the name of property and productivity. Many indigenous children were sent to church and government schools where their languages and cultures were literally beaten out of them.

Now, you cannot undo that which was done - the breaking of treaties, the trail of tears, all the sorrows of long-ago years. You cannot bring back to the world of the living those who perished in the American holocaust. You cannot take away homes and enterprises of present-day Americans to pay tribute to indigenous people who passed to their final hunting ground in that apocalypse. But if justice can be imagined, so can a practical way to achieve it. Provided, that is, if you are willing to reconcile yourselves to each other, and to historical truth.

Of course, this won't happen in the present day United States, where the extremists in the GOP (etc) are not willing to reconcile themselves to minority groups and to historical truth.
 
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scbriml
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:33 am

I see Trump said that he will “not even consider” renaming 10 US military bases named after confederate generals.

He tweeted:
“It has been suggested that we should rename as many as 10 of our Legendary Military Bases, such as Fort Bragg in North Carolina, Fort Hood in Texas, Fort Benning in Georgia, etc. These Monumental and very Powerful Bases have become part of a Great American Heritage, and a...

...history of Winning, Victory, and Freedom. The United States of America trained and deployed our HEROES on these Hallowed Grounds, and won two World Wars. Therefore, my Administration will not even consider the renaming of these Magnificent and Fabled Military Installations...

...Our history as the Greatest Nation in the World will not be tampered with. Respect our Military!“


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 5719391233

All of which suggests a complete disconnection from today’s reality let alone the reality that the confederacy lost the civil war. I’m slightly surprised he didn’t suggest hoisting the stars and bars at the bases.

Out of interest, does renaming a military base require presidential or congressional approval, or can the military just do it?
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seahawk
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:36 am

Baldr wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yes, the relativist context is appropriate when looking at economic/lifestyle motivations but the moral/religious context is unchanged from now and then - people of good moral constitution were aware then, as now, that basic human decency meant that system of servitude was untenable, particularly given the sexual/physical/mental abuse endemic within.


Morals evolve. Especially holy books have been used to justify nearly every atrocity in human history and the nature of such books makes it quite easy, as you can find parts that be be interpreted for any message you want to deliver. But the main part is that morals evolve. There was a very long time in human history where raiding, plundering, raping and enslaving the population of your enemy was just the thing to do. Or just look at the treatment of women, it took a long time before they were treated equal to men and still are not treated that way in countries the USA considers an ally.

And when it comes to slavery one must see that the first African slaves were shipped to the British Colony that would later become the USA in 1619. You could even make a point that the triangular trade between the UK, Africa and the USA did built the foundation for the economic strength that allowed the American revolution. So yes it was a long tradition and a big economic factor in the Southern states not only the use of slaves for the agricultural products made which required lots of labour, but also the breeding and selling of slaves. So imho one needs to differentiate between the historic and modern context. A statue of a Southern Leader built before 1900 must be judged differently to one built in the 1960ies - the first is a historic monument, the second is a statue of racism because that comes out of the historic context of the 1960ies.


Yet, the U.S. was built on the theft of Native Americans' lands. Once indigenous people were dispossessed of their lands, the land was surveyed, subdivided and sold to the highest bidder. The British and American empires dispossessed indigenous people of their lands in the name of property and productivity. Many indigenous children were sent to church and government schools where their languages and cultures were literally beaten out of them.

Now, you cannot undo that which was done - the breaking of treaties, the trail of tears, all the sorrows of long-ago years. You cannot bring back to the world of the living those who perished in the American holocaust. You cannot take away homes and enterprises of present-day Americans to pay tribute to indigenous people who passed to their final hunting ground in that apocalypse. But if justice can be imagined, so can a practical way to achieve it. Provided, that is, if you are willing to reconcile yourselves to each other, and to historical truth.

Of course, this won't happen in the present day United States, where the extremists in the GOP (etc) are not willing to reconcile themselves to minority groups and to historical truth.


I agree with you, the native Americans suffered badly as well and I would dare say that the representation of their interests in modern America leaves a lot more to be desired than when it comes to African Americans.
 
Sokes
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:14 pm

scbriml wrote:
I see Trump said that he will “not even consider” renaming 10 US military bases named after confederate generals.

He tweeted:
[b][i]“It has been suggested that we should rename as many as 10 of our Legendary Military Bases, such as Fort Bragg in North Carolina, Fort Hood in Texas, Fort Benning in Georgia, etc. These Monumental and very Powerful Bases have become part of a Great American Heritage, and a...

I have to disagree with you this time. Nations are not built on truth and intellectual discussions. Lies are an essential ingredient. Naming these bases or not removing their name was a way to honor Southern traditions and to help the South to become one with the North. I side with Trump.

I know such discussions from India. There was a female leader fighting the British in the rebellion of 1857. She is honored as national hero.
If she had to win, would she have renounced the throne in favor of democracy? Was she interested in freedom for India or only in her interest for her small area?
There were a few fantastic princes in the early 20th century. The Maharaja of Baroda introduced obligatory schooling long before most of Europe had it. Indore, Mysore and Travancore also come to mind. One good Maharaja for 20 years or so made what a difference. However none of these rulers creating wealth for their people are much honored today. Humans celebrate mostly people with bloodshed.
One can't expect a sincere discussion with nationalist or identity sentiment.
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extender
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:24 pm

Why not burn the flags instead? Today the Confederate flag and Civil War statues. What is it going to be tomorrow? Barbaric hunting practices? A good chunk of people have become so sensitized that beer fart would offend them. Masculinity is found offensive. This whole thing with the flag will set a dangerous precedent.

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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:49 pm

Well, Australia practiced a form of slavery into the 20th century.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... for-debate
 
Derico
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:57 pm

I always find it quite fascinating how everyone almost without exception is for "secession" or self-determination of a region of any other country, but the same idea in one's own country becomes treason. It's just an observation and not a criticism, though it is quite often one sees that we tend to support independence and break-up of other states, and at the same time support "sending the tanks" into any area of our country that aspires to the same (whatever the reasons may be).
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Aaron747
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:07 pm

extender wrote:
Why not burn the flags instead? Today the Confederate flag and Civil War statues. What is it going to be tomorrow? Barbaric hunting practices? A good chunk of people have become so sensitized that beer fart would offend them. Masculinity is found offensive. This whole thing with the flag will set a dangerous precedent.

I am a spic, a minority, and do not enjoy any privileges.


Correction - as we have seen with this Presidency and the sychophants enabling it (like one Sebastian Gorka), it's *fake* masculinity that is offensive. Fake alphas are sensitive to their own shortcomings and inadequacies and the rest of us are saddled with the effects of all their projection because they can't leave well enough alone. Men not being able to stand their own inadequacy like a man, reflect, and work on improving themselves and instead wantonly pointing fingers and seeking validation to fill the void is definitely offensive.

An excellent conservative commentary on this phenomenon:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... nt/612031/

I suspect a lot of those sympathetic to the CSA, its flag, and whatever projection that entails support this leader because he gives bully pulpit approval to being the jerks they know they have always been.
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extender
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:15 pm

So all the SJW have been self-appointed to find faults with everything they find offensive? Good for a laugh on Friday.

So why is the Mexican Flag being flown in the Southwest, didn't they lose the war?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:23 pm

extender wrote:
So all the SJW have been self-appointed to find faults with everything they find offensive? Good for a laugh on Friday.

So why is the Mexican Flag being flown in the Southwest, didn't they lose the war?


I am not sure what the SJWs are on about because they are also often offensive. Did you actually bother to read Mr. Nichols’s piece? Perhaps you did not notice a lot of independents, corporations, and suburban moms are behind this push as well - it’s not the exclusive province of the multiple genders/womyn’s studies brigade.

And your question about the Mexican flag is a straw man - stay on topic without illogical fallacies. This is about the CSA flag and its issues. You can start a new thread to discuss why/why not the Mexican flag should be seen in the Southwest.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:33 pm

TSS wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
That's quite a bit manipulation!


Indeed. The simple fact is that not every flag featuring a "saltire" (in layman's terms, a big ol' "X") is related to the Confederacy or to any Confederate flag.

Hey, I'm just bringing up how the flags issue will likely never be put to rest and how the current flag bears similarities to the battle flags. I already said that Alabama's flag is rather plain looking, but one can make the argument that it's a variation. The official description says it's a Cross of St. Andrews, but note the time it was adopted and after which flag it was modeled after.
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TSS
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:07 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
TSS wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
That's quite a bit manipulation!


Indeed. The simple fact is that not every flag featuring a "saltire" (in layman's terms, a big ol' "X") is related to the Confederacy or to any Confederate flag.


Hey, I'm just bringing up how the flags issue will likely never be put to rest and how the current flag bears similarities to the battle flags. I already said that Alabama's flag is rather plain looking, but one can make the argument that it's a variation. The official description says it's a Cross of St. Andrews, but note the time it was adopted and after which flag it was modeled after.


Fair enough. Wikipedia on the Alabama flag- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Alabama

The great thing about having a relatively plain flag is the ease with which it can be drawn in school. Can you imagine a second- or third-grader trying to draw Maryland's flag with anything approaching accuracy?

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frmrCapCadet
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:19 pm

The South was committed to extending slavery to most of the West, and that was the battleline. And a few Southern leaders wanted to extend the South into Mexico and Brazil to restore slavery. It was slavery into all federal territories, not the existence of slavery that triggered the war. Texas leaving Mexico was in part about restoring the legality of slavery.

I was always disappointed that the various states did not protest the adoption of their various battle flags by KKK, racists, and neo-nazis who display it along with the swastika. The message we get is that 'birds of a feather have flocked together'.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:46 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The South was committed to extending slavery to most of the West, and that was the battleline. And a few Southern leaders wanted to extend the South into Mexico and Brazil to restore slavery. It was slavery into all federal territories, not the existence of slavery that triggered the war. Texas leaving Mexico was in part about restoring the legality of slavery.


Do you have a more detailed source on that?

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I was always disappointed that the various states did not protest the adoption of their various battle flags by KKK, racists, and neo-nazis who display it along with the swastika. The message we get is that 'birds of a feather have flocked together'.


How would they protest the use of their unofficial/"battle" flag, and to whom?
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:47 pm

TSS wrote:
The great thing about having a relatively plain flag is the ease with which it can be drawn in school. Can you imagine a second- or third-grader trying to draw Maryland's flag with anything approaching accuracy?

During my years in MD, I could never grow used to seeing the flag. It's detailed and unique, but I think the lack of blue is what threw me off. Right now, the WA flag is a more subdued flag, though I hate that it's just the seal of the state on a green background. Sloppy, though there are worse ones.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:54 pm

Sokes wrote:
I have to disagree with you this time. Nations are not built on truth and intellectual discussions. Lies are an essential ingredient. Naming these bases or not removing their name was a way to honor Southern traditions and to help the South to become one with the North. I side with Trump.


No problem with disagreeing, but how is the south not “one with the north” after all this time? Removing the flag and other confederate symbols shouldn’t be a problem today unless their “historical value” is simply a mask to hide a deeper meaning.

extender wrote:
Why not burn the flags instead? Today the Confederate flag and Civil War statues.


It’s a good start.

extender wrote:
A good chunk of people have become so sensitized that beer fart would offend them.


If your ancestors had suffered slavery and all it’s associated injustices, followed by decades of further disadvantages disguised as alleged equality, you might find confederate paraphernalia offensive, no?
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:08 pm

TSS wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
The South was committed to extending slavery to most of the West, and that was the battleline. And a few Southern leaders wanted to extend the South into Mexico and Brazil to restore slavery. It was slavery into all federal territories, not the existence of slavery that triggered the war. Texas leaving Mexico was in part about restoring the legality of slavery.


Do you have a more detailed source on that?

That caught my eye too. A quick google found these:
https://www.austincc.edu/lpatrick/his1693/causes.html.
https://www.saobserver.com/single-post/ ... of-Slavery
https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/qdt01

I never actually realized that Texas was part of the "slaves states". I mean I see/read that now but it just never struck as that being a part of it.

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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:22 pm

TSS wrote:

The great thing about having a relatively plain flag is the ease with which it can be drawn in school. Can you imagine a second- or third-grader trying to draw Maryland's flag with anything approaching accuracy?

Image



Yes, but I would not have imagine to since I did do. It has the appearance of difficulty, but it is really not so much, as there is actually a lot of symmetry involved and if you have a decent straight edge, the Blacks and Yellows line up pretty well.

At the age you mention, I had a thing for Hot Air Balloons. And there was one that featured regularly at the annual shows in Germantown and Frederick. Essentially an MD flag made into the Balloon envelope, it took more than a few tries getting that right. But I was able to on the 1st set of colored pencils I tried it with.


einsteinboricua wrote:
TSS wrote:
The great thing about having a relatively plain flag is the ease with which it can be drawn in school. Can you imagine a second- or third-grader trying to draw Maryland's flag with anything approaching accuracy?

During my years in MD, I could never grow used to seeing the flag. It's detailed and unique, but I think the lack of blue is what threw me off. Right now, the WA flag is a more subdued flag, though I hate that it's just the seal of the state on a green background. Sloppy, though there are worse ones.


Every state flag is more subdued than MD's.

I do get that it is hard to get used to if you are not from there. Unlike, say TX, where the state flag flies at every appt complex, gas station, & Wal Mart, MD's really only seems to show up where a state flag is actually called for, which is not much.

Growing up in Monty Co, I was as used to seeing DC's flag around as much as MD's. Perhaps more so.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:28 pm

Tugger wrote:
TSS wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
The South was committed to extending slavery to most of the West, and that was the battleline. And a few Southern leaders wanted to extend the South into Mexico and Brazil to restore slavery. It was slavery into all federal territories, not the existence of slavery that triggered the war. Texas leaving Mexico was in part about restoring the legality of slavery.


Do you have a more detailed source on that?

That caught my eye too. A quick google found these:
https://www.austincc.edu/lpatrick/his1693/causes.html.
https://www.saobserver.com/single-post/ ... of-Slavery
https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/qdt01

I never actually realized that Texas was part of the "slaves states". I mean I see/read that now but it just never struck as that being a part of it.


Yep. Thanks for the links as well. The third one promises as much detail as I could possibly want and more than I can digest right now. The second one seems to be an opinion piece written by someone who has a burr under his saddle because Texas isn't still part of Mexico.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:31 pm

scbriml wrote:

extender wrote:
A good chunk of people have become so sensitized that beer fart would offend them.


If your ancestors had suffered slavery and all it’s associated injustices, followed by decades of further disadvantages disguised as alleged equality, you might find confederate paraphernalia offensive, no?


What happened to my ancestors does not define who I am. There is no genetic tag that comes with it. What you are referring to is a crutch. Nobody owes you anything. As soon as people realize that, things will change.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:34 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Growing up in Monty Co, I was as used to seeing DC's flag around as much as MD's. Perhaps more so.

You'd be surprised. I lived in St. Mary's Co for 3 years and the flag was prominent there (I mean, not as much as the US flag or how the Texas flag would be in TX), but it was there. And the license plates now incorporate the flag too so...yeah.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:46 pm

TSS wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
The South was committed to extending slavery to most of the West, and that was the battleline. And a few Southern leaders wanted to extend the South into Mexico and Brazil to restore slavery. It was slavery into all federal territories, not the existence of slavery that triggered the war. Texas leaving Mexico was in part about restoring the legality of slavery.


Do you have a more detailed source on that?


This is a bit more nuanced than it may first appear (although no better in terms of outcome). For the most part, it is not that the South cared about "bringing slavery to the world". This was a political fight: they wanted to entrench slavery at the Federal level in order to prevent the risk to their established economic order. Every additional state that they had that was a slave-state was viewed as an ally in congress against abolitionist tendencies of the North.

The North was moving to a different economic model (increased urban concentration with manufacturing) that had less "need" for slaves, whereas the South (traditionally the wealthier economic powerhouse of the US) had an economic model that essentially required slavery to work. Of course, the South looks like it missed the future in two respects - obviously the insanity of human slavery and that the land/resource and agriculture-based model was a dying source of wealth as the industrial revolution accelerated.

Economic self-preservation was (and is) a powerful motivation to rationalize racism and all of the ugly things that come with it. We see it today in different contexts - anger at undocumented immigrants is a consequence of fear of job loss or wage suppression. Not to justify xenophobia, but it's easy for a high-income white collar worker to be supportive of undocumented immigrants while lower income, less skilled labor is going to inherently be more worried because they perceive that they are in direct competition.

In terms of the topic at hand, living in the South myself and growing up in a somewhat rural area - admittedly this was 20 years ago - but many people did genuinely believe the flag in question to be more one of cultural heritage than anything else. The issue, of course, is that this heritage is a very.. unfortunate heritage. The real challenge here is that learning that dark heritage takes education - and the worst way to educate people is to demonize them, because all it does is make them withdraw to their own smaller circles that self-reinforce their existing beliefs - and, if anything, may radicalize them.

It's clear that future history is already written - the Confederate flag in the distant future will be viewed in the same vein as the Nazi flag and will eventually die out (at least in any common use... tragically of course the Nazi flag and symbol is still found in some extremist contexts). In between now and then will take some time.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:55 pm

extender wrote:
scbriml wrote:

extender wrote:
A good chunk of people have become so sensitized that beer fart would offend them.


If your ancestors had suffered slavery and all it’s associated injustices, followed by decades of further disadvantages disguised as alleged equality, you might find confederate paraphernalia offensive, no?


What happened to my ancestors does not define who I am. There is no genetic tag that comes with it. What you are referring to is a crutch. Nobody owes you anything. As soon as people realize that, things will change.


I agree 100% that what your ancestors did does not define who you are.

But this isn't about our ancestors. This is about the legacy of our ancestors as instantiated in the world now, and this is about what people are doing today. Are you implying that symbolism is meaningless? I honestly don't get very riled up by symbols, but many people do. Do you dislike it when people burn or otherwise disrespect the American flag, your religious text of choice (if any), or military symbolism (such as the uniform)? If you do, then you agree that in some way shape or form, symbolism matters.

And I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that the Confederate flag has not had a very dirty heritage and has some serious baggage in terms of what it represents. Perhaps some people genuinely fly it in ignorance of some of its darker implications and believe it is genuinely just a celebration of "Southern heritage" (and not realize that Southern heritage is.. complicated in this context) - but not everyone lives in such blissful ignorance.

I'll fight to the death to defend someone's right to fly whatever flag they wish - including the Nazi flag or the Confederate flag - but that doesn't mean that it should be accepted. I have no issue with others - like NASCAR - banning its representation on their own grounds and events. And any argument to the contrary is pretty strained.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:01 pm

seahawk wrote:
History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy. So in the end it was not about slavery but about the North controlling the fortunes of the South and threatening the economic survival of the South. That is exactly the feeling that started many wars. So logically the Confederate flag became a symbol of the independence and freedom of the South and right to defend their way of life - even if their way of life was wrong when seen from today, but was just fine for a long time when seen from the time the conflict actually happens.
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.


This.

Also, most Confederate soldiers were poor southerners who couldn't afford to own slaves in the first place.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:04 pm

ethernal wrote:
Do you dislike it when people burn or otherwise disrespect the American flag, your religious text of choice (if any), or military symbolism (such as the uniform)? If you do, then you agree that in some way shape or form, symbolism matters.

Dislike? Sure. Doesn't make me flip out. Che shirts for example, that prick killed the innocent and left a stain on my country, but I see the little snowflakes with their Che shirts and laugh to myself. THey have no clue who he was, and that is why these protests gain traction, most of these people are clueless and let feelings, not facts dictate their course in life. The Flag, well, it has been ruled that it can be burned, so the law is that; the law.

ethernal wrote:
And I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that the Confederate flag has not had a very dirty heritage and has some serious baggage in terms of what it represents. Perhaps some people genuinely fly it in ignorance of some of its darker implications and believe it is genuinely just a celebration of "Southern heritage" (and not realize that Southern heritage is.. complicated in this context) - but not everyone lives in such blissful ignorance.

But a flag is just that. A symbol. Look how many people here are getting their undergarments in serious knots. My problem is it starts with the flags, then what? Are grits going to be eradicated? Farming cotton for a living?

ethernal wrote:
I'll fight to the death to defend someone's right to fly whatever flag they wish - including the Nazi flag or the Confederate flag - but that doesn't mean that it should be accepted. I have no issue with others - like NASCAR - banning its representation on their own grounds and events. And any argument to the contrary is pretty strained.

NASCAR can ban the flag; their clubhouse, their rules. Now when the fans go elsewhere, it will be too late. Same with the NFL. I'm with you on the rights of people to assemble and protest, but their rights ends where someones face and/or property begin.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:16 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
TSS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yes, the relativist context is appropriate when looking at economic/lifestyle motivations but the moral/religious context is unchanged from now and then - people of good moral constitution were aware then, as now, that basic human decency meant that system of servitude was untenable, particularly given the sexual/physical/mental abuse endemic within.


Not quite. In the time of slavery the Bible was used as justification for slavery, specifically the story of Ham, son of Noah, but there are several passages in the Book of Leviticus that deal directly with slave ownership as well.


Yes, but we’re talking about 150 years ago, not 2,000. The US was already a republic with stated values of equality under law. Any effort to perfect that ideal would be considered moral and just, as Lincoln surmised, and any effort to *keep* the republic in a state of imperfection would be seen as unjust. This calculation is as correct now as it was then.

Not to mention that by 1860, the US was a laggard in the continuation of chattel slavery. I believe only Brazil continued it longer, whereas it had already been abolished elsewhere for at least 20-30 years by that point. Even as far back as 1776, the Founders were quite aware of the inherent conflict between the Enlightenment values they espoused and the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were imbued with and slavery. By 1860, clinging to and wanting to expand slavery was beyond "démodé" and was most certainly viewed by the rest of the country and world as incredibly unjust and backward.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:38 pm

extender wrote:
ethernal wrote:
And I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that the Confederate flag has not had a very dirty heritage and has some serious baggage in terms of what it represents. Perhaps some people genuinely fly it in ignorance of some of its darker implications and believe it is genuinely just a celebration of "Southern heritage" (and not realize that Southern heritage is.. complicated in this context) - but not everyone lives in such blissful ignorance.

But a flag is just that. A symbol. Look how many people here are getting their undergarments in serious knots. My problem is it starts with the flags, then what? Are grits going to be eradicated? Farming cotton for a living?


If your perspective is it's just a symbol, then who cares that it's banned? There's tons of things banned at NASCAR or other sporting events already, and have been for a long time. Trying to compare a symbol to those other things is a massive slippery slope fallacy. Grits and farming cotton have inherent value - as a food and to make clothes. A symbol literally has no value except.. what it symbolizes. The reason it exists is its symbol. Now, someone may try to debate that the symbol is "angelic, non-racist respect for 'Southern Heritage'" instead of "definitely racist", but the point is, the sole point of the symbol is to express something. So, trying to say that "Oh, first they came for my symbol! And now they're coming for my.. uh, breakfast" is not a conclusion that logically follows.

ethernal wrote:
I'll fight to the death to defend someone's right to fly whatever flag they wish - including the Nazi flag or the Confederate flag - but that doesn't mean that it should be accepted. I have no issue with others - like NASCAR - banning its representation on their own grounds and events. And any argument to the contrary is pretty strained.

NASCAR can ban the flag; their clubhouse, their rules. Now when the fans go elsewhere, it will be too late. Same with the NFL. I'm with you on the rights of people to assemble and protest, but their rights ends where someones face and/or property begin.


Unfortunately, you're out of luck on this one. NASCAR and the NFL care about their future audience here. An overwhelming plurality of younger adults (35 and under) view the flag as racist based on polling done before this most recent topic. NASCAR and the NFL are (correctly) betting that this is much more important than the fraction of the audience that is actually going to get riled up about this enough to do anything about it. NASCAR especially will do everything it can to try to grow more acceptance to a broader audience that - right or wrong - has a pretty stereotyped perception of the average NASCAR fan.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:02 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves,

That's a revisionist view. A majority of the states that seceded did so with the premise that Blacks will never be seen as equal to Whites and that White supremacy is the law of the land. So yes, the Confederate states left so that slavery remained intact.

seahawk wrote:
but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's ethical. It's also quite ironic that the same people that resented the North interfering in daily life are attempting to do the same today.

seahawk wrote:
Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy.

Understandable, but again, their decision and basis to secede was based on denying Blacks freedom or equal rights. You could still retain the same labor structure, except Blacks would not be considered property but employees. Southerners did not agree. And given the segregation that followed, it's easy to see that the South's "way of life" reason was where Whites dominated everything.

seahawk wrote:
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.

Maybe, but new symbols take time to spread whereas those already associated with something are forever linked. The hammer and sickle are communist symbols. If you want to create a new communist party, these two symbols will only be associated with Soviet communism; you'd need to create a new symbol that attempts to show that you're communist but a new kind of communist. If you want a new symbol for "Southern Pride" that is not seen as racist or linked to the Confederacy, you need to leave the Battle Flag behind.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:05 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
I don't revere the Confederate Battle Flag at all, but I find NASCAR's move to be a token move and nothing more. Why would they fly it in the first place?

That being said, Southerners love to defend it as a symbol of Southern heritage, conveniently omitting all the reasons Southern states seceded from the Union in the first place. "STATES' RIGHTS"...except it wasn't too much about states' rights as much as it was about the right to own slaves and deny the same rights to freed Blacks.

The fact that the flag became prominent in 1897 when MS adopted it to its flag would have been seen as just a small rebellion from a state reluctant to be brought with the times, but when GA adopted the banner into its flag at the height of the civil rights movement of the 50s, it says all we need to know about what exactly the flag stands for.

Finally, how many non-Whites fly the flag and revere it as a Southern symbol vs Whites?

It is a historic relic, but one flown by traitors. I don't have a problem if a Confederate museum or a private facility that connects to the Confederacy (like Six Flags) flies it, but I'm of the opinion that such a flag does not deserve to be flown over government property at any level nor in organizations that have absolutely no relationship to it.


The Civil War was fought over many different reasons. It’s incorrect to resume it to only slavery. Of course, slavery is the only reason black Americans care for, and this is completely understandable from their point of view. I’d probably not give two sh!ts about the other reasons, either, if I was black.

This nonetheless creates a problem in perspective that’s insurmountable. You have those who see it as representing slavery, like the KKK and blacks, but also those who can pick apart a complex time in the nation.

I would never display such a flag, however, not because I think it can’t represent other matters, but because regardless of what I think for a large number of people, that flag legitimately represents only one thing—slavery.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:08 pm

I see the flag, I think of the General Lee, Boss Hogg and Daisy Duke.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:15 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, and the North was a so clean, free of any racism or slavery. Do you any American history?

Well, by the time the Civil War erupted, all Northern states had abolished slavery (North meaning states north of the Mason Dixon line, except MO). New states being admitted were balanced: slave state with free state. Four slave states remained with the Union. The balance was altered by 1861, when there were 19 free states vs 15 slave states.

No, the North was not clean either, but it made better strides to correct the issues than the South. Jim Crow laws might have been unofficially enforced in the North, but it was codified into law and even constitutions in many Southern states. Where the North was already allowing Blacks to participate in society, the South had to be forced to end segregation through a Supreme Court ruling and national guard action.

When faced between picking a criminal who had shown redemption and one who shows no remorse, I'll take the one that has shown redemption any day. Neither is clean, but the former has better promise of being just than the latter.


Classic rule of the majority—northern states grew out of slavery and racism on their own, initially in the minority camp, which is the only reason they didn’t face the muzzle of the army/national guards.

The time lag of “illumination“ in north America is very clear. Improvement in race relations started up north, and over the decades it moved south. By the time you had a minority left that had an issue with blacks, they were located in the south.

The south would have ended slavery on their own, just like every other country did, and without a war. Same with Jim Crow laws, police brutality, etc. but there would have been a time delay—history does not happen everywhere at the same time. Northern states were just as nasty towards blacks, but at a different time period.

Racism and hate, after all, are not a matter of geography or genetics. It’s a matter of education.
Last edited by PPVRA on Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
TSS wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:
It's probably about time the US split into 2 or 3 separate countries.


That has been tried before. It didn't work out.


That was a different time and a different issue.


Some would argue it is the same issue. Keeping one race above another. Class warfare. I think it is a good idea. TX, OK, KS, MO, KY, VA and everything south and east go back to their caste system and take their share of the debt with them. Give them like five years to set up a constitution and laws and whoever wants to leave can leave.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:20 pm

PPVRA wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
I don't revere the Confederate Battle Flag at all, but I find NASCAR's move to be a token move and nothing more. Why would they fly it in the first place?

That being said, Southerners love to defend it as a symbol of Southern heritage, conveniently omitting all the reasons Southern states seceded from the Union in the first place. "STATES' RIGHTS"...except it wasn't too much about states' rights as much as it was about the right to own slaves and deny the same rights to freed Blacks.

The fact that the flag became prominent in 1897 when MS adopted it to its flag would have been seen as just a small rebellion from a state reluctant to be brought with the times, but when GA adopted the banner into its flag at the height of the civil rights movement of the 50s, it says all we need to know about what exactly the flag stands for.

Finally, how many non-Whites fly the flag and revere it as a Southern symbol vs Whites?

It is a historic relic, but one flown by traitors. I don't have a problem if a Confederate museum or a private facility that connects to the Confederacy (like Six Flags) flies it, but I'm of the opinion that such a flag does not deserve to be flown over government property at any level nor in organizations that have absolutely no relationship to it.


The Civil War was fought over many different reasons. It’s incorrect to resume it to only slavery. Of course, slavery is the only reason black Americans care for, and this is completely understandable from their point of view. I’d probably not give two sh!ts about the other reasons, either, if I was black.

This nonetheless creates a problem in perspective that’s insurmountable. You have those who see it as representing slavery, like the KKK and blacks, but also those who can pick apart a complex time in the nation.

I would never display such a flag, however, not because I think it can’t represent other matters, but because regardless of what I think for a large number of people, that flag legitimately represents only one thing—slavery.


Slavery was the main issue. There were other issues like State's Rights and equal representation being fought over too. But, yes, the right to keep and treat humans as property is a big deal. And it should be especially to the "every life is sacred" party.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:27 pm

PPVRA wrote:
The Civil War was fought over many different reasons. It’s incorrect to resume it to only slavery. Of course, slavery is the only reason black Americans care for, and this is completely understandable from their point of view. I’d probably not give two sh!ts about the other reasons, either, if I was black.

This nonetheless creates a problem in perspective that’s insurmountable. You have those who see it as representing slavery, like the KKK and blacks, but also those who can pick apart a complex time in the nation.

I would never display such a flag, however, not because I think it can’t represent other matters, but because regardless of what I think for a large number of people, that flag legitimately represents only one thing—slavery.


The Civil War was 100% fought over slavery. Or, perhaps better stated, the Civil War was 100% fought over the economic interests of slavery. In the South, rich people's wealth was entirely dependent upon plantations which were perceived to be entirely dependent on low cost (read: slave) labor to be competitive in international markets. Keep in mind that, in the US, the South was the historically wealthy part of the country in terms of gross domestic product. It was only with the sparking of the industrial revolution did the North become more of an economic powerhouse.

If you actually studied American political and economic history in depth, you would see that the topic of slavery was *the* biggest political and economic issue in the US for the two decades preceding the Civil War. Even going back to 1820 with the Missouri compromise, every new territory brought into statehood was carefully managed to keep "balance" between the slave states and the non-slave states to avoid political power favoring one group or the other. The Compromise of 1850 was a massive political appeasement motion to avoid civil war 15 years early followed by the Kansas-Nebraska Act. Dozens of minor but bloody skirmishes occurred in the outlying territories around the topic of slavery in the years running up to the Civil War.

The Civil War was about economic and political interests, but that economic and political interest had slavery at its core. Anyone who believes that the war was fought for any other underlying reason is delusional and is not a student of history.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:30 pm

extender wrote:
I see the flag, I think of the General Lee, Boss Hogg and Daisy Duke.

IKR? I am totally the same!! I loved the General Lee! And Bo and Luke out runnin' around "just good 'ol boys, never meanin' no harm" doin' right and making the doofus sheriff and Boss Hogs look like the fools they were! And then there was Daisy.... HOT!!! It was great!

But that was a TV show and I was a kid just wanting fun silliness. Once you actually learn our history and understand the harm that was done... well I still have those fond memories but I understand the flag is something else, and needs to just not be "honored and celebrated". Just needs to be retired. Remembered of course, for what it represents and all that, even the fun stuff, but it is time for it to be gone. It insults too many people in a way that is detrimental to the core.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
ethernal
Posts: 292
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
I don't revere the Confederate Battle Flag at all, but I find NASCAR's move to be a token move and nothing more. Why would they fly it in the first place?

That being said, Southerners love to defend it as a symbol of Southern heritage, conveniently omitting all the reasons Southern states seceded from the Union in the first place. "STATES' RIGHTS"...except it wasn't too much about states' rights as much as it was about the right to own slaves and deny the same rights to freed Blacks.

The fact that the flag became prominent in 1897 when MS adopted it to its flag would have been seen as just a small rebellion from a state reluctant to be brought with the times, but when GA adopted the banner into its flag at the height of the civil rights movement of the 50s, it says all we need to know about what exactly the flag stands for.

Finally, how many non-Whites fly the flag and revere it as a Southern symbol vs Whites?

It is a historic relic, but one flown by traitors. I don't have a problem if a Confederate museum or a private facility that connects to the Confederacy (like Six Flags) flies it, but I'm of the opinion that such a flag does not deserve to be flown over government property at any level nor in organizations that have absolutely no relationship to it.


The Civil War was fought over many different reasons. It’s incorrect to resume it to only slavery. Of course, slavery is the only reason black Americans care for, and this is completely understandable from their point of view. I’d probably not give two sh!ts about the other reasons, either, if I was black.

This nonetheless creates a problem in perspective that’s insurmountable. You have those who see it as representing slavery, like the KKK and blacks, but also those who can pick apart a complex time in the nation.

I would never display such a flag, however, not because I think it can’t represent other matters, but because regardless of what I think for a large number of people, that flag legitimately represents only one thing—slavery.


Slavery was the main issue. There were other issues like State's Rights and equal representation being fought over too. But, yes, the right to keep and treat humans as property is a big deal. And it should be especially to the "every life is sacred" party.


The reason why state's rights was an issue was.. because of slavery. To say that the Civil War was fought over state's rights is like saying that it wasn't the fall that killed them, it was the ground. It's two sides of the exact same coin.
 
meecrob
Posts: 150
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:44 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Nice try, but Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri we’re Northern slave states and Maryland didn’t end outlaw slavery until 1864 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves in Southern states. Lincoln couldn’t free slaves in Maryland because of, you know, politics.


Things don’t change overnight because of, you know, politics. That doesn’t change that the Civil War had a clear result - the Union army, today’s army, was the victor. The renegades did not prevail and were on the wrong side of basic human decency. That’s all you need to know.

This southern dude’s take on the issue is excellent:

https://twitter.com/brentterhune/status ... 17224?s=21


You might look into current military recruitment patterns. Hint: today’s military is geographically the CSA Army.


Many reasonable people would postulate that that is the exact problem with the US military.
 
Sokes
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:45 pm

scbriml wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I have to disagree with you this time. Nations are not built on truth and intellectual discussions. Lies are an essential ingredient. Naming these bases or not removing their name was a way to honor Southern traditions and to help the South to become one with the North. I side with Trump.


No problem with disagreeing, but how is the south not “one with the north” after all this time? Removing the flag and other confederate symbols shouldn’t be a problem today unless their “historical value” is simply a mask to hide a deeper meaning.

Now what to answer you? You are right, but I disagree.
I don't know what is the deeper meaning. For some it's white supremacy, and here we agree. But if most Southern Whites don't object to the flag, I doubt that's the majority.

From Ramachandra Guha: "Gandhi-the years that changed the world", chapter "At home in London", year 1931:
"The newspaper had asked him to clarify his view on women. He answered that he believed 'in the complete equality for women and, in the India I seek to
build, they would have it.' He wished to see 'the opening of all offices, professions and employments to women, otherwise there can be no equality".
Then he added a significant caveat:
'But I must sincerely hope that women will retain and exercise her ancient prerogative as queen of the household.' "

Gandhi early on said interdining and intermarriage of castes is not necessary, but untouchability has to go.
Of course, he always ate with everybody. And the more influential he grew, the more he opposed caste. Gandhi had the heart of a reformer. But in the opinions he stated he would not cross the line over which people wouldn't be willing to follow him. "Reform always comes at a snail's pace" is a sentence from Gandhi.
Basically he wasn't sincere in what he said.
Ambedkar was a leader of the untouchable caste. His arguments are very logical. Indeed he is among my favorite intellectuals. Ambedkar often got irritated with the "half saint, half politician" 's emotional chewing gum and highly illogical arguments. Ambedkar argued whatever logic dictated.
Gandhi became the father of the nation. Ambedkar once stood for election. He lost against a milk man.


When communism was about to collapse there were huge demonstrations in Poland. Lech Walesa was the leader. In one demonstration with lots of workers (I believe to remember from a shipyard) the mood changed. There was a risk that the workers start marching towards the city and that the demonstration turns violent.
There was a communist song, something with "march comrades". Lech Walesa always used this song to prevent people from marching when there was a risk that people start marching.
If I remember well, Lech Walesa was influenced by Gandhi.

Symbols are loaded with emotions. And where emotions are involved, logic has not much place.

I'm not American. I may be totally wrong. These were the thoughts I got concerning this discussion. I spent all my gunpowder now (a German expression that one has nothing more to contribute.). But I will continue reading.

P.S.: When India gained independence Gandhi insisted that Ambedkar was made minister of justice. He argued that not the Congress Party, but India got Independence. Ambedkar was the main character to write the Indian constitution.
I believe Gandhi mostly agreed with Ambedkar's aims. But Gandhi knew people were not ready to follow Ambedkar.
Or were both required? Ambedkar to spread ideas which made people feel uneasy as they were true and Gandhi for compromises with Ambedkar at snail's pace?
Were high caste Hindus be willing to follow Gandhi only because he was the "lesser evil" as compared to the radical Ambedkar?

I myself don't know the answers to these questions.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
winginit
Posts: 2849
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:59 pm

I'm not sure I've heard any voice in this thread answer outright, so I'll ask -

Is there anyone who believes that the United States should have military bases named after, say, Braxton Bragg as is currently the case?

No only was Braxton Bragg a literal traitor who went on to fight the US military and kill US troops in the defense of slavery, but he was objectively a terrible General, who lost almost all of his battles partially on account of horrible tactics and a complete lack of faith in him by those he lead.

Why... why on earth, would you name a military training base after such a person? Isn't that something that you'd want to correct immediately?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8482
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:08 pm

ethernal wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The Civil War was fought over many different reasons. It’s incorrect to resume it to only slavery. Of course, slavery is the only reason black Americans care for, and this is completely understandable from their point of view. I’d probably not give two sh!ts about the other reasons, either, if I was black.

This nonetheless creates a problem in perspective that’s insurmountable. You have those who see it as representing slavery, like the KKK and blacks, but also those who can pick apart a complex time in the nation.

I would never display such a flag, however, not because I think it can’t represent other matters, but because regardless of what I think for a large number of people, that flag legitimately represents only one thing—slavery.


The Civil War was 100% fought over slavery. Or, perhaps better stated, the Civil War was 100% fought over the economic interests of slavery. In the South, rich people's wealth was entirely dependent upon plantations which were perceived to be entirely dependent on low cost (read: slave) labor to be competitive in international markets. Keep in mind that, in the US, the South was the historically wealthy part of the country in terms of gross domestic product. It was only with the sparking of the industrial revolution did the North become more of an economic powerhouse.

If you actually studied American political and economic history in depth, you would see that the topic of slavery was *the* biggest political and economic issue in the US for the two decades preceding the Civil War. Even going back to 1820 with the Missouri compromise, every new territory brought into statehood was carefully managed to keep "balance" between the slave states and the non-slave states to avoid political power favoring one group or the other. The Compromise of 1850 was a massive political appeasement motion to avoid civil war 15 years early followed by the Kansas-Nebraska Act. Dozens of minor but bloody skirmishes occurred in the outlying territories around the topic of slavery in the years running up to the Civil War.

The Civil War was about economic and political interests, but that economic and political interest had slavery at its core. Anyone who believes that the war was fought for any other underlying reason is delusional and is not a student of history.


That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address
Last edited by PPVRA on Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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