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extender
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:08 pm

It is called history. It's over a hundred years old. FFS, leave the damn bases alone. I know it hurts your feelings, but leave it alone.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:11 pm

PPVRA wrote:
The south would have ended slavery on their own, just like every other country did, and without a war. Same with Jim Crow laws, police brutality, etc. but there would have been a time delay—history does not happen everywhere at the same time. Northern states were just as nasty towards blacks, but at a different time period.

I think you give the South too much credit. A Civil War and freeing slaves would have been enough for those states to understand that Blacks deserve the same rights as Whites, yet they exploited loopholes so that they never achieved the same rights and quality of life. Separate but equal, despite the fact that those "equal" facilities were never "equal".

With a weaker central government (something akin to what the EU is now), maybe the South could have reformed on its own. But with a sturdy central government, if the Constitution says "every man is equal", then states that do not conform must be brought into compliance. The ideal to grant them equal rights and treat them equally is human; it is only in the minds of a few that there seems to be this concept that the lighter your skin, the more rights you should have (in the same way that, at the time, a penis entitled you to more rights than those without it).
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:13 pm

“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.“

-Abraham Lincoln, 1862

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lin ... reeley.htm
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:16 pm

winginit wrote:
I'm not sure I've heard any voice in this thread answer outright, so I'll ask -

Is there anyone who believes that the United States should have military bases named after, say, Braxton Bragg as is currently the case?

No only was Braxton Bragg a literal traitor who went on to fight the US military and kill US troops in the defense of slavery, but he was objectively a terrible General, who lost almost all of his battles partially on account of horrible tactics and a complete lack of faith in him by those he lead.

Why... why on earth, would you name a military training base after such a person? Isn't that something that you'd want to correct immediately?

They probably named it so as a gesture to the South during Reconstruction. As to resistance to changing it...if I had to guess, it probably has less to do with any sort of actual admiration to Braxton Bragg as a person and more to do with the idea that a bunch of Yankees are invading their space and demanding they change something that has long been a regional fixture to them.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:17 pm

Note: I do not mean these posts to take credit away from Lincoln for being an abolitionist and signing the emancipation proclamation. He deserves all that, he always was an abolitionist, but pragmatically there’s only so much he could have done.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ethernal
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:23 pm

PPVRA wrote:
That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address


"It can all be looked up easily" is the the same rallying cry of anti-vaxxers and other folks who tend to find that the facts they seek tend not to exist in respected literature.

I'm not sure what your quote is supposed to represent. It only reinforces the fact that the Civil War was about slavery. The entire address is about slavery! Lincoln was saying that because he was trying to avoid war because, guess what? That was what the war was about. By the way, if you're actually familiar with Lincoln's entire address, he acknowledges the South's biggest concern (and what had been a major contention since 1820): the status of slavery in new states. He basically said "yes, we all know that most of the new states will vote against slavery and the balance of power will ultimately shift.. but this will take time, and the Supreme Court can help mediate this in the coming decades."

Note that by the time of his inaugural address, the rebellion had already started on paper: seven states had already seceded from the Union. As we all know, shortly after inauguration, Fort Sumter was bombarded and the rest is history. The only thing that would have stopped the Civil War was a commitment that new states would be slave states to keep the balance of power. But, somehow, the Civil War wasn't about slavery? Yeah, okay.
Last edited by ethernal on Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:24 pm

winginit wrote:
I'm not sure I've heard any voice in this thread answer outright, so I'll ask -

Is there anyone who believes that the United States should have military bases named after, say, Braxton Bragg as is currently the case?

No only was Braxton Bragg a literal traitor who went on to fight the US military and kill US troops in the defense of slavery, but he was objectively a terrible General, who lost almost all of his battles partially on account of horrible tactics and a complete lack of faith in him by those he lead.

Why... why on earth, would you name a military training base after such a person? Isn't that something that you'd want to correct immediately?

Well... .why would you name an aircraft carrier after President Ford? :spin:

Beyond that, I do get what you are saying and also am in support of renaming the bases. Ultimately there are many wonderful people, military service members, that would be better to honor.

Tugg
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
luckyone
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:28 pm

PPVRA wrote:
ethernal wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The Civil War was fought over many different reasons. It’s incorrect to resume it to only slavery. Of course, slavery is the only reason black Americans care for, and this is completely understandable from their point of view. I’d probably not give two sh!ts about the other reasons, either, if I was black.

This nonetheless creates a problem in perspective that’s insurmountable. You have those who see it as representing slavery, like the KKK and blacks, but also those who can pick apart a complex time in the nation.

I would never display such a flag, however, not because I think it can’t represent other matters, but because regardless of what I think for a large number of people, that flag legitimately represents only one thing—slavery.


The Civil War was 100% fought over slavery. Or, perhaps better stated, the Civil War was 100% fought over the economic interests of slavery. In the South, rich people's wealth was entirely dependent upon plantations which were perceived to be entirely dependent on low cost (read: slave) labor to be competitive in international markets. Keep in mind that, in the US, the South was the historically wealthy part of the country in terms of gross domestic product. It was only with the sparking of the industrial revolution did the North become more of an economic powerhouse.

If you actually studied American political and economic history in depth, you would see that the topic of slavery was *the* biggest political and economic issue in the US for the two decades preceding the Civil War. Even going back to 1820 with the Missouri compromise, every new territory brought into statehood was carefully managed to keep "balance" between the slave states and the non-slave states to avoid political power favoring one group or the other. The Compromise of 1850 was a massive political appeasement motion to avoid civil war 15 years early followed by the Kansas-Nebraska Act. Dozens of minor but bloody skirmishes occurred in the outlying territories around the topic of slavery in the years running up to the Civil War.

The Civil War was about economic and political interests, but that economic and political interest had slavery at its core. Anyone who believes that the war was fought for any other underlying reason is delusional and is not a student of history.


That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address

I would encourage you to read the Declarations of Causes of Seceding States, and see how many reasons other than slavery show up.
Here's an excerpt from Mississippi -- "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

The second paragraph of Georgia's Declaration is summarized as "The northern states outnumber us. We can't have that." And the rest of the declaration goes on to state that the anti-slavery movement in the North is the cause of what they described as an oppression.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... ing-states
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:33 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The south would have ended slavery on their own, just like every other country did, and without a war. Same with Jim Crow laws, police brutality, etc. but there would have been a time delay—history does not happen everywhere at the same time. Northern states were just as nasty towards blacks, but at a different time period.

I think you give the South too much credit. A Civil War and freeing slaves would have been enough for those states to understand that Blacks deserve the same rights as Whites, yet they exploited loopholes so that they never achieved the same rights and quality of life. Separate but equal, despite the fact that those "equal" facilities were never "equal".

With a weaker central government (something akin to what the EU is now), maybe the South could have reformed on its own. But with a sturdy central government, if the Constitution says "every man is equal", then states that do not conform must be brought into compliance. The ideal to grant them equal rights and treat them equally is human; it is only in the minds of a few that there seems to be this concept that the lighter your skin, the more rights you should have (in the same way that, at the time, a penis entitled you to more rights than those without it).


I don't think the south deserves any credit, either. All I said is they were running behind in recognizing the rights of blacks, which is not something to give them credit for.

Now, there’s a general notion that northern states weren’t as bad. I disagree with that. Slavery is slavery and New York had it, too. They were just as nasty to blacks as Mississippi or Georgia. And once New York banned slavery, it wasn’t all peaches, either... northern states had massive racial divide, Jim Crow type laws, etc. This path was then followed by southern states, too...
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:36 pm

luckyone wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
ethernal wrote:

The Civil War was 100% fought over slavery. Or, perhaps better stated, the Civil War was 100% fought over the economic interests of slavery. In the South, rich people's wealth was entirely dependent upon plantations which were perceived to be entirely dependent on low cost (read: slave) labor to be competitive in international markets. Keep in mind that, in the US, the South was the historically wealthy part of the country in terms of gross domestic product. It was only with the sparking of the industrial revolution did the North become more of an economic powerhouse.

If you actually studied American political and economic history in depth, you would see that the topic of slavery was *the* biggest political and economic issue in the US for the two decades preceding the Civil War. Even going back to 1820 with the Missouri compromise, every new territory brought into statehood was carefully managed to keep "balance" between the slave states and the non-slave states to avoid political power favoring one group or the other. The Compromise of 1850 was a massive political appeasement motion to avoid civil war 15 years early followed by the Kansas-Nebraska Act. Dozens of minor but bloody skirmishes occurred in the outlying territories around the topic of slavery in the years running up to the Civil War.

The Civil War was about economic and political interests, but that economic and political interest had slavery at its core. Anyone who believes that the war was fought for any other underlying reason is delusional and is not a student of history.


That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address

I would encourage you to read the Declarations of Causes of Seceding States, and see how many reasons other than slavery show up.
Here's an excerpt from Mississippi -- "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

The second paragraph of Georgia's Declaration is summarized as "The northern states outnumber us. We can't have that." And the rest of the declaration goes on to state that the anti-slavery movement in the North is the cause of what they described as an oppression.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... ing-states


A document that was written by a small number of men. Not important.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
luckyone
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:38 pm

PPVRA wrote:
luckyone wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address

I would encourage you to read the Declarations of Causes of Seceding States, and see how many reasons other than slavery show up.
Here's an excerpt from Mississippi -- "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

The second paragraph of Georgia's Declaration is summarized as "The northern states outnumber us. We can't have that." And the rest of the declaration goes on to state that the anti-slavery movement in the North is the cause of what they described as an oppression.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... ing-states


A document that was written by a small number of men. Not important.

Just the men justifying the cessation...
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:41 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Now, there’s a general notion that northern states weren’t as bad. I disagree with that. Slavery is slavery and New York had it, too. They were just as nasty to blacks as Mississippi or Georgia. And once New York banned slavery, it wasn’t all peaches, either... northern states had massive racial divide, Jim Crow type laws, etc. This path was then followed by southern states, too...

I'll take exception to that. The northern states were NOT as bad as proven out by the fact that they did in fact get rid of slavery on their own. The north did not fight a war to preserve the lack of rights for slaves, to continue to allow the ownership of other human beings. The north, while not perfect or all peaches and cream, fought AGAINST that.

There is no way you can reasonably say that is not better that what the south did.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
ethernal
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:43 pm

PPVRA wrote:
luckyone wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address

I would encourage you to read the Declarations of Causes of Seceding States, and see how many reasons other than slavery show up.
Here's an excerpt from Mississippi -- "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

The second paragraph of Georgia's Declaration is summarized as "The northern states outnumber us. We can't have that." And the rest of the declaration goes on to state that the anti-slavery movement in the North is the cause of what they described as an oppression.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... ing-states


A document that was written by a small number of men. Not important.


Wow. Just wow. You're right, literally the elected people in the state legislatures and congressional representatives that were doing the seceding and starting the war.. they clearly didn't speak for the people of the state. It's just a complete coincidence that they happened to secede and claim certain justifications. The people of the state were appalled, absolutely appalled at what they wrote! They only wanted to secede from the country because of some 3% tariffs on cotton. Yep, that's it.
 
PPVRA
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:46 pm

ethernal wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address


"It can all be looked up easily" is the the same rallying cry of anti-vaxxers and other folks who tend to find that the facts they seek tend not to exist in respected literature.

I'm not sure what your quote is supposed to represent. It only reinforces the fact that the Civil War was about slavery. The entire address is about slavery! Lincoln was saying that because he was trying to avoid war because, guess what? That was what the war was about. By the way, if you're actually familiar with Lincoln's entire address, he acknowledges the South's biggest concern (and what had been a major contention since 1820): the status of slavery in new states. He basically said "yes, we all know that most of the new states will vote against slavery and the balance of power will ultimately shift.. but this will take time, and the Supreme Court can help mediate this in the coming decades."

Note that by the time of his inaugural address, the rebellion had already started on paper: seven states had already seceded from the Union. As we all know, shortly after inauguration, Fort Sumter was bombarded and the rest is history. The only thing that would have stopped the Civil War was a commitment that new states would be slave states to keep the balance of power. But, somehow, the Civil War wasn't about slavery? Yeah, okay.


Lincoln could not be more explicit about the war not being about slavery. Yeah, slavery was a major point of disagreement and indeed one of the major items in the list of grievances southerners had with northerners. But it wasn’t the only one and Lincoln did not start a giant war only because of slavery, according to Lincoln himself.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
luckyone
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:49 pm

PPVRA wrote:
ethernal wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address


"It can all be looked up easily" is the the same rallying cry of anti-vaxxers and other folks who tend to find that the facts they seek tend not to exist in respected literature.

I'm not sure what your quote is supposed to represent. It only reinforces the fact that the Civil War was about slavery. The entire address is about slavery! Lincoln was saying that because he was trying to avoid war because, guess what? That was what the war was about. By the way, if you're actually familiar with Lincoln's entire address, he acknowledges the South's biggest concern (and what had been a major contention since 1820): the status of slavery in new states. He basically said "yes, we all know that most of the new states will vote against slavery and the balance of power will ultimately shift.. but this will take time, and the Supreme Court can help mediate this in the coming decades."

Note that by the time of his inaugural address, the rebellion had already started on paper: seven states had already seceded from the Union. As we all know, shortly after inauguration, Fort Sumter was bombarded and the rest is history. The only thing that would have stopped the Civil War was a commitment that new states would be slave states to keep the balance of power. But, somehow, the Civil War wasn't about slavery? Yeah, okay.


Lincoln could not be more explicit about the war not being about slavery. Yeah, slavery was a major point of disagreement and indeed one of the major items in the list of grievances southerners had with northerners. But it wasn’t the only one and Lincoln did not start a giant war only because of slavery, according to Lincoln himself.

Lincoln started the war over cessation, regardless oft he reason--put another way, the cessation was about slavery, not the war. Cessation and war are not the same thing. Really, you're arguing out of your element here. I am from the South, and had great-great-grandparents at Appomattox. I know my ancestral history very well.
Last edited by luckyone on Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PPVRA
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:50 pm

It’s pointless to point to one document and state it did not include all the reasons, therefore the other reasons don’t matter. What did you expect this proclamation to be, hundreds of pages long?

The US Declaration of Independence did not go into every little grievance with Britain, either.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
luckyone
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:53 pm

PPVRA wrote:
It’s pointless to point to one document and state it did not include all the reasons, therefore the other reasons don’t matter. What did you expect this proclamation to be, hundreds of pages long?

The US Declaration of Independence did not go into every little grievance with Britain, either.

The Declaration of Independence cites far more reasons than the one cited by the writers of the Declarations of Causes.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
 
ethernal
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:00 pm

PPVRA wrote:
ethernal wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address


"It can all be looked up easily" is the the same rallying cry of anti-vaxxers and other folks who tend to find that the facts they seek tend not to exist in respected literature.

I'm not sure what your quote is supposed to represent. It only reinforces the fact that the Civil War was about slavery. The entire address is about slavery! Lincoln was saying that because he was trying to avoid war because, guess what? That was what the war was about. By the way, if you're actually familiar with Lincoln's entire address, he acknowledges the South's biggest concern (and what had been a major contention since 1820): the status of slavery in new states. He basically said "yes, we all know that most of the new states will vote against slavery and the balance of power will ultimately shift.. but this will take time, and the Supreme Court can help mediate this in the coming decades."

Note that by the time of his inaugural address, the rebellion had already started on paper: seven states had already seceded from the Union. As we all know, shortly after inauguration, Fort Sumter was bombarded and the rest is history. The only thing that would have stopped the Civil War was a commitment that new states would be slave states to keep the balance of power. But, somehow, the Civil War wasn't about slavery? Yeah, okay.


Lincoln could not be more explicit about the war not being about slavery. Yeah, slavery was a major point of disagreement and indeed one of the major items in the list of grievances southerners had with northerners. But it wasn’t the only one and Lincoln did not start a giant war only because of slavery, according to Lincoln himself.


Your perception of history is clearly colored by biases or some sort of dissonance.

Quoting Lincoln does not change the political context of the era. Lincoln gets all of the focus, but the legislature had a big swing in favor of Republicans. The writing was on the wall: the next state to join the Union was going to reorganize the historical power that the Democratic party had. Lincoln valued the union above all else, but Republicans as a whole were anti-slavery. These are all facts of history. What are yours?
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:02 pm

luckyone wrote:
Cessation and war are not the same thing. Really, you're arguing out of your element here.

That isn't how the Confederacy viewed it evidently since they were the first to take up arms with the bombardment of Ft. Sumter.
 
luckyone
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:08 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Cessation and war are not the same thing. Really, you're arguing out of your element here.

That isn't how the Confederacy viewed it evidently since they were the first to take up arms with the bombardment of Ft. Sumter.

They fired because a Union army regiment did not leave when the Governor of South Carolina demanded they leave--citing South Carolina's declared secession--and instead tried to resupply the fort. The Union, of course, did not recognize the secession.
 
PPVRA
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:10 pm

ethernal wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
ethernal wrote:

"It can all be looked up easily" is the the same rallying cry of anti-vaxxers and other folks who tend to find that the facts they seek tend not to exist in respected literature.

I'm not sure what your quote is supposed to represent. It only reinforces the fact that the Civil War was about slavery. The entire address is about slavery! Lincoln was saying that because he was trying to avoid war because, guess what? That was what the war was about. By the way, if you're actually familiar with Lincoln's entire address, he acknowledges the South's biggest concern (and what had been a major contention since 1820): the status of slavery in new states. He basically said "yes, we all know that most of the new states will vote against slavery and the balance of power will ultimately shift.. but this will take time, and the Supreme Court can help mediate this in the coming decades."

Note that by the time of his inaugural address, the rebellion had already started on paper: seven states had already seceded from the Union. As we all know, shortly after inauguration, Fort Sumter was bombarded and the rest is history. The only thing that would have stopped the Civil War was a commitment that new states would be slave states to keep the balance of power. But, somehow, the Civil War wasn't about slavery? Yeah, okay.


Lincoln could not be more explicit about the war not being about slavery. Yeah, slavery was a major point of disagreement and indeed one of the major items in the list of grievances southerners had with northerners. But it wasn’t the only one and Lincoln did not start a giant war only because of slavery, according to Lincoln himself.


Your perception of history is clearly colored by biases or some sort of dissonance.

Quoting Lincoln does not change the political context of the era. Lincoln gets all of the focus, but the legislature had a big swing in favor of Republicans. The writing was on the wall: the next state to join the Union was going to reorganize the historical power that the Democratic party had. Lincoln valued the union above all else, but Republicans as a whole were anti-slavery. These are all facts of history. What are yours?


I work off the exact same facts. Lincoln fought the war to keep the union together, not to free slaves. It was his anti-secession opinion that drove him to fight, not his abolitionist views.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:25 pm

So Lincoln was a bad guy.
There should be no such thing as preserving a union at all cost.
Should the Soviet Union gone to great lengths to preserve itself? Declare war on everyone that opposed it? Or perhaps the Third Reich should have preserved itself? Or perhaps a bad marriage should be preserved so the guy can continue to beat his wife?
Last edited by Dieuwer on Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:26 pm

luckyone wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Cessation and war are not the same thing. Really, you're arguing out of your element here.

That isn't how the Confederacy viewed it evidently since they were the first to take up arms with the bombardment of Ft. Sumter.

They fired because a Union army regiment did not leave when the Governor of South Carolina demanded they leave--citing South Carolina's declared secession--and instead tried to resupply the fort. The Union, of course, did not recognize the secession.

That's still firing the first shot, and not a narrative of some unprovoked invasion by the Union.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:27 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So Lincoln was a bad guy.


Exactly what I did not say.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:32 pm

PPVRA wrote:
I work off the exact same facts. Lincoln fought the war to keep the union together, not to free slaves. It was his anti-secession opinion that drove him to fight, not his abolitionist views.

I will disagree.

Working off the exact same facts:

He was leading a nation that was driving toward ending slavery. Going forward as non-slave states out numbered and out-populated the slave states the laws would be amended and the nation would be slavery free. This would not happen if secession of the south was allowed. Ergo if was vital to keep the union together if slavery was to end.

Tugg
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:19 pm

Tugger wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
I work off the exact same facts. Lincoln fought the war to keep the union together, not to free slaves. It was his anti-secession opinion that drove him to fight, not his abolitionist views.

I will disagree.

Working off the exact same facts:

He was leading a nation that was driving toward ending slavery. Going forward as non-slave states out numbered and out-populated the slave states the laws would be amended and the nation would be slavery free. This would not happen if secession of the south was allowed. Ergo if was vital to keep the union together if slavery was to end.

Tugg


The first state to ban the slave trade was Virginia, a southern state.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:33 pm

Every single state banned the international slave trade before a federal law came into existence. One “exception” is South Carolina, who first banned the trade then revoked the law. Nonetheless, one exception to the general trend.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:45 pm

Tugger wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
I work off the exact same facts. Lincoln fought the war to keep the union together, not to free slaves. It was his anti-secession opinion that drove him to fight, not his abolitionist views.

I will disagree.

Working off the exact same facts:

He was leading a nation that was driving toward ending slavery. Going forward as non-slave states out numbered and out-populated the slave states the laws would be amended and the nation would be slavery free. This would not happen if secession of the south was allowed. Ergo if was vital to keep the union together if slavery was to end.

Tugg


Lincoln is irrelevant in all of this. It doesn't even matter if Lincoln was deep down inside completely pro-slavery or the most steadfast abolitionist who secretly wanted to end slavery. The Democrats got a beating in the 1860 election and the writing was on the wall that they would not have the strength in the Senate (historically their power block) after a period of dramatically escalating tensions around the topic of slavery (up to and including relatively large scale skirmishes in territories and new states) to get the outcomes they desired on new states. Lincoln's inaugural speech that was quoted above addresses literally addresses this and accepts the inevitability of the situation and begs the South to stay in the union and come to a compromise with the support of the legislature and Supreme Court.

It's easy to glorify Lincoln or ascribe noble or ignoble intent to his actions and statements. But he is but one actor in a culmination of increasingly intensive conflict going back all the way back to 1820 (and arguably earlier). The idea of trying to distract "what the Civil War was about" by focusing on out-of-context quotes from Lincoln or trying to ascribe "what he cared about" is a complete red herring.

The Civil War was about slavery. Even if it wasn't (hint: it was), it doesn't absolve the (sort of) Confederate flag's use in more modern contexts in the 1900s. I also believe that many people who display the flag are ignorant to some of its darker history and do believe it is more about heritage. But it will eventually die out as that ignorance is extinguished. It's just a question of when.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:55 pm

ethernal wrote:
It's easy to glorify Lincoln or ascribe noble or ignoble intent to his actions and statements. But he is but one actor in a culmination of increasingly intensive conflict going back all the way back to 1820 (and arguably earlier). The idea of trying to distract "what the Civil War was about" by focusing on out-of-context quotes from Lincoln or trying to ascribe "what he cared about" is a complete red herring.


Conflicts over multiple issues, not just slavery.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:17 pm

PPVRA wrote:
ethernal wrote:
It's easy to glorify Lincoln or ascribe noble or ignoble intent to his actions and statements. But he is but one actor in a culmination of increasingly intensive conflict going back all the way back to 1820 (and arguably earlier). The idea of trying to distract "what the Civil War was about" by focusing on out-of-context quotes from Lincoln or trying to ascribe "what he cared about" is a complete red herring.


Conflicts over multiple issues, not just slavery.


Do you agree that slavery was the primary underlying root cause of the Civil War? Of course nothing in the world is as simple as "this one thing" being the sole explanatory issue. But we can all agree it was the single largest and most critical factor right? If not, what specific issue was more important than slavery and not a direct consequence of slavery?
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:24 pm

extender wrote:
scbriml wrote:

extender wrote:
A good chunk of people have become so sensitized that beer fart would offend them.


If your ancestors had suffered slavery and all it’s associated injustices, followed by decades of further disadvantages disguised as alleged equality, you might find confederate paraphernalia offensive, no?


What happened to my ancestors does not define who I am. There is no genetic tag that comes with it. What you are referring to is a crutch. Nobody owes you anything. As soon as people realize that, things will change.


In four sentences you’ve shown that you have next to no understanding of the situation.

Black people are not wanting anything other than being treated the same as white folks. It’s not a lot to ask, is it?

extender wrote:
It is called history. It's over a hundred years old. FFS, leave the damn bases alone. I know it hurts your feelings, but leave it alone.


Doubling down isn’t a good look! Using that logic, noboby should be upset about the holocaust.

winginit wrote:
I'm not sure I've heard any voice in this thread answer outright, so I'll ask -

Is there anyone who believes that the United States should have military bases named after, say, Braxton Bragg as is currently the case?

No only was Braxton Bragg a literal traitor who went on to fight the US military and kill US troops in the defense of slavery, but he was objectively a terrible General, who lost almost all of his battles partially on account of horrible tactics and a complete lack of faith in him by those he lead.

Why... why on earth, would you name a military training base after such a person? Isn't that something that you'd want to correct immediately?


There are some in this thread that clearly disagree. You don’t have to look very far.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:29 pm

ethernal wrote:
Tugger wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
I work off the exact same facts. Lincoln fought the war to keep the union together, not to free slaves. It was his anti-secession opinion that drove him to fight, not his abolitionist views.

I will disagree.

Working off the exact same facts:

He was leading a nation that was driving toward ending slavery. Going forward as non-slave states out numbered and out-populated the slave states the laws would be amended and the nation would be slavery free. This would not happen if secession of the south was allowed. Ergo if was vital to keep the union together if slavery was to end.

Tugg


Lincoln is irrelevant in all of this. It doesn't even matter if Lincoln was deep down inside completely pro-slavery or the most steadfast abolitionist who secretly wanted to end slavery. The Democrats got a beating in the 1860 election and the writing was on the wall that they would not have the strength in the Senate (historically their power block) after a period of dramatically escalating tensions around the topic of slavery (up to and including relatively large scale skirmishes in territories and new states) to get the outcomes they desired on new states. Lincoln's inaugural speech that was quoted above addresses literally addresses this and accepts the inevitability of the situation and begs the South to stay in the union and come to a compromise with the support of the legislature and Supreme Court.

It's easy to glorify Lincoln or ascribe noble or ignoble intent to his actions and statements. But he is but one actor in a culmination of increasingly intensive conflict going back all the way back to 1820 (and arguably earlier). The idea of trying to distract "what the Civil War was about" by focusing on out-of-context quotes from Lincoln or trying to ascribe "what he cared about" is a complete red herring.

The Civil War was about slavery. Even if it wasn't (hint: it was), it doesn't absolve the (sort of) Confederate flag's use in more modern contexts in the 1900s. I also believe that many people who display the flag are ignorant to some of its darker history and do believe it is more about heritage. But it will eventually die out as that ignorance is extinguished. It's just a question of when.

Most likely once the direct knowledge of the people who lived during the Confederacy languishes. Most of the boomers grandparents had grandparents that fought in the War. My great-grandmother was born in 1900, and I knew her and she isn't just a vague memory. My father had a very good relationship with her. My great-grandfather was born in 1899 on what used to a slave-holding plantation. Their grandparents fought in the War. That's a powerful connection. Younger generations don't know somebody who knew somebody. It's a greater degree of separation than that, and as such, the emotional attachment changes.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:34 pm

seahawk wrote:
History must be seen from the perspective of the people living at the time not from today´s perspective. Today´s perspective can only put the things happening into context. It is not as if the Confederate states decided to leave the union to finally be allowed to use slaves, but that up until that point slavery was legal in nearly the whole USA. Then the northern states decided to outlaw it. Today we know that the economic effect was tolerable, but at the time the economy in the South seemed to depend on the usage of slaves much more than the economy in the North. So for the South it was a decision by the North that endangered their way of life and the foundations of their economy. So in the end it was not about slavery but about the North controlling the fortunes of the South and threatening the economic survival of the South. That is exactly the feeling that started many wars. So logically the Confederate flag became a symbol of the independence and freedom of the South and right to defend their way of life - even if their way of life was wrong when seen from today, but was just fine for a long time when seen from the time the conflict actually happens.
And Europe learned that removing the symbols does not remove and ideology, the ideology just finds different symbols.


This viewpoint expresses only concern for the well being of the 'white Southern' way of life and only that.

It's a very poor way to to excuse such inhuman cruelty. To believe any of this is carry on as if people like Thomas Paine and the millions of Abolitionists never existed.
Their viewpoints of the day hold far more validity than your 'we are viewing this thru 'modern day perspective' - which is false from every angle. Paine and the like lost lifelong friends and family
leading a very vocal and vociferous as antagonist.

Their views and actions represent and sustain what 'today's modern perspectives' find appalling..150 years later.

Their 'way of life was centered' enjoyment of life on the backs of others to their death...not a thing to proud of is found anywhere in that.

In addition, it was the United States of America who seized British-claimed territory from the UK (and Native peoples here first) and later the newly formed Confederate States of America would attempt to do the very same to the USA - over Slavery. From the Northern Perspective it was purely.."where do you think you're going with that huge chunk of real estate?"

Wars ensued after each act. The losers vanquished.

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Last edited by BN747 on Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:41 pm

Some may identify with or have a connection to confederacy (and that's their right) but historically symbolic connotations of racism do not belong on an official public premises and in business venues today. Sends the wrong message. They do belong in museums and in historically contextual depictions, but never as a proudly displayed co-branding of the present. In addition, however, they should never be desecrated or mutilated in unruly mob-like fashion, including any similarly symbolic statues, since those acts usually involve tangent damage to public and private property.
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:53 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
FGITD wrote:
A flag for a group of treasonous, racist, losers.

It's only redeeming factor is that when you see it flying over someone's house, you immediately know a scumbag lives there.

Heritage my a**


Yes, and the North was a so clean, free of any racism or slavery. Do you any American history?


I would not call people who fly that flag scumbags. More like mis-informed/ignorant of the history and meaning of that flag. I would point out to them that what they think is the confederate flag in reality is not. Hopefully if they were educated on the subject and open minded enough they would see it for what it is and take it down.

Of course are will be those will either refuse to accept the truth or have no problem with it. Those people I refer to as ignorant fools.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:58 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Some may identify with or have a connection to confederacy (and that's their right) but historically symbolic connotations of racism do not belong on an official public premises and in business venues today. Sends the wrong message. They do belong in museums and in historically contextual depictions, but never as a proudly displayed co-branding of the present. In addition, however, they should never be desecrated or mutilated in unruly mob-like fashion, including any similarly symbolic statues, since those acts usually involve tangent damage to public and private property.


Exactly, it's like while visiting Paris you run into Adolph Hitler Plaza, Himmler Place or Goehring Square...

If Southerners had their way ... you'd be landing at Gen. Robert E. Lee International Airport in Atlanta today.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:26 pm

PPVRA wrote:
The south would have ended slavery on their own, just like every other country did, and without a war. Same with Jim Crow laws, police brutality, etc. but there would have been a time delay—history does not happen everywhere at the same time. Northern states were just as nasty towards blacks, but at a different time period.


Pure supposition on your part, and not really congruent with how the politicians involved saw the world in the ~1850s. The Southern political class was in fact scheming in several plausible and implausible ways to expand slavery (such as to Central America;) they viewed it as a matter of survival, either they grew the reach of the institution of slavery, or it would be extinguished. What exactly would the argument for ending slavery freely even look like to a Southern plantation owner circa 1875? What would be in it for them?
 
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:28 pm

The confederate flag is a great virtual signal so others know you're trash without even having to guess.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:35 pm

Newark727 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The south would have ended slavery on their own, just like every other country did, and without a war. Same with Jim Crow laws, police brutality, etc. but there would have been a time delay—history does not happen everywhere at the same time. Northern states were just as nasty towards blacks, but at a different time period.


Pure supposition on your part, and not really congruent with how the politicians involved saw the world in the ~1850s. The Southern political class was in fact scheming in several plausible and implausible ways to expand slavery (such as to Central America;) they viewed it as a matter of survival, either they grew the reach of the institution of slavery, or it would be extinguished. What exactly would the argument for ending slavery freely even look like to a Southern plantation owner circa 1875? What would be in it for them?


Not only that...but the palpable acceptance of prolonged brutality and inhumanity for others (as long as it's not you...) is easily dismissive and quite telling among certain other humans.

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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:05 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
The confederate flag is a great virtual signal so others know you're trash without even having to guess.


And yet so many keep lobbying for the elimination of it. Doesn't make sense, does it?
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:28 am

ethernal wrote:
seb146 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

The Civil War was fought over many different reasons. It’s incorrect to resume it to only slavery. Of course, slavery is the only reason black Americans care for, and this is completely understandable from their point of view. I’d probably not give two sh!ts about the other reasons, either, if I was black.

This nonetheless creates a problem in perspective that’s insurmountable. You have those who see it as representing slavery, like the KKK and blacks, but also those who can pick apart a complex time in the nation.

I would never display such a flag, however, not because I think it can’t represent other matters, but because regardless of what I think for a large number of people, that flag legitimately represents only one thing—slavery.


Slavery was the main issue. There were other issues like State's Rights and equal representation being fought over too. But, yes, the right to keep and treat humans as property is a big deal. And it should be especially to the "every life is sacred" party.


The reason why state's rights was an issue was.. because of slavery. To say that the Civil War was fought over state's rights is like saying that it wasn't the fall that killed them, it was the ground. It's two sides of the exact same coin.


There were/are other issues with States Rights, not just slavery.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:36 am

seb146 wrote:
ethernal wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Slavery was the main issue. There were other issues like State's Rights and equal representation being fought over too. But, yes, the right to keep and treat humans as property is a big deal. And it should be especially to the "every life is sacred" party.


The reason why state's rights was an issue was.. because of slavery. To say that the Civil War was fought over state's rights is like saying that it wasn't the fall that killed them, it was the ground. It's two sides of the exact same coin.


There were/are other issues with States Rights, not just slavery.


Oh, and in 1860..what were the 'other issues' re:States Rights?

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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:42 am

The Civil War began after Congress (comprised largely of congressmen from the north because of the higher population vs the south) passed numerous acts that favored the north more economically at the detriment of the south. Social differences also didn't help neither illustrated by the instance of a northern congressman ripping on the south and making personal attacks on a more-elderly congressman from SC (I think he was from SC) which enraged the other SC congressman who was the elderly guys nephew to the point of beating the northern congressman with his cane.

Fast forward to the 1860s, states are seceding because they essentially have become disenfranchised with the Union because and formed the CSA, spurred by years of a growing schism between north and south and accelerated with the election of Lincoln who didn't have a plan one way or another with slavery, arguably he just wanted to let the death of slavery run its course because the writing was on the wall anyway.

The newly formed CSA attacked the Union base, Ft. Sumter seeing it as a form of foreign aggression from a nation they broke off from. With hostilities officially started, Lincoln had no choice but to use force to enforce the integrity of the fabric of the United States and reintegrate the CSA to the Union.

England, where slavery was long abolished and very unpopular, became big trader with the CSA (read: cotton) and still had a beef with the Union. It was suspected that England could enter the Civil War on the side of the south. Lincoln knew he couldn't take them both on (England being the premier world power at the time and the CSA giving the Union a run for its money). Knowing Englands views on slavery, Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation, thus officially making slavery a defining aspect of the War. Once England saw that all ties were cut with the CSA (shifting cotton production and distribution to Bombay) and that was the biggest turning point toward Union victory in the Civil War.

Just outlining history as I was taught in history classes in high school and college (2009-2010 high school US history, 2011-2012 college US history, all in Texas). Not making a stance in favor or against but wanted to help illustrate the reasons behind southern secession and the build up to the Civil War, and a big spur to the abolition of slavery in the United States. This will be my only post in this thread, I ask that all responses and quotes from my post be respectful and civil. Responses and quotes will not see a response from me. Attacks on me will be reported to mods.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:58 am

TWA772LR wrote:
The Civil War began after Congress (comprised largely of congressmen from the north because of the higher population vs the south) passed numerous acts that favored the north more economically at the detriment of the south. Social differences also didn't help neither illustrated by the instance of a northern congressman ripping on the south and making personal attacks on a more-elderly congressman from SC (I think he was from SC) which enraged the other SC congressman who was the elderly guys nephew to the point of beating the northern congressman with his cane.



No idea what history book told you that but it was pro-slavery Representative Democrat and (8 year younger) Preston Brook from S.C who beat (with a walking cane) Abolitionist Senator Charles Sumner to death from Mass on the Senate Floor. See, just like today's Cartel Dealers..that easy money is far too good and you'd better not touch it" mentality existed then too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Charles_Sumner

And come clean dude, Sumner had been directly bashing Slave Holders NOT 'Ripping on the South' as you so brilliantly white washed what he had done.

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Last edited by BN747 on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:06 am

ethernal wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
ethernal wrote:
It's easy to glorify Lincoln or ascribe noble or ignoble intent to his actions and statements. But he is but one actor in a culmination of increasingly intensive conflict going back all the way back to 1820 (and arguably earlier). The idea of trying to distract "what the Civil War was about" by focusing on out-of-context quotes from Lincoln or trying to ascribe "what he cared about" is a complete red herring.


Conflicts over multiple issues, not just slavery.


Do you agree that slavery was the primary underlying root cause of the Civil War? Of course nothing in the world is as simple as "this one thing" being the sole explanatory issue. But we can all agree it was the single largest and most critical factor right? If not, what specific issue was more important than slavery and not a direct consequence of slavery?


I can agree that it was a primary reason for secession and ultimately also for the war. But not that northern states set out on an altruistic war path to free slaves in the south.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:22 am

Newark727 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The south would have ended slavery on their own, just like every other country did, and without a war. Same with Jim Crow laws, police brutality, etc. but there would have been a time delay—history does not happen everywhere at the same time. Northern states were just as nasty towards blacks, but at a different time period.


Pure supposition on your part, and not really congruent with how the politicians involved saw the world in the ~1850s. The Southern political class was in fact scheming in several plausible and implausible ways to expand slavery (such as to Central America;) they viewed it as a matter of survival, either they grew the reach of the institution of slavery, or it would be extinguished. What exactly would the argument for ending slavery freely even look like to a Southern plantation owner circa 1875? What would be in it for them?


Plantations are pretty much all that was in Latin America. To this date, it’s still a primary economic activity. Yet, every single country got rid of slavery by the late 1800s. No other place, aside from Haiti’s slave revolution, got rid of slavery by spilling blood.

The US south was more industrious than Latin America. They would have moved on just the same, just at a different time.
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PPVRA
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:29 am

BN747 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
The south would have ended slavery on their own, just like every other country did, and without a war. Same with Jim Crow laws, police brutality, etc. but there would have been a time delay—history does not happen everywhere at the same time. Northern states were just as nasty towards blacks, but at a different time period.


Pure supposition on your part, and not really congruent with how the politicians involved saw the world in the ~1850s. The Southern political class was in fact scheming in several plausible and implausible ways to expand slavery (such as to Central America;) they viewed it as a matter of survival, either they grew the reach of the institution of slavery, or it would be extinguished. What exactly would the argument for ending slavery freely even look like to a Southern plantation owner circa 1875? What would be in it for them?


Not only that...but the palpable acceptance of prolonged brutality and inhumanity for others (as long as it's not you...) is easily dismissive and quite telling among certain other humans.

BN747


There’s no acceptance on my part that any prolonged brutality would have been a good thing. If slaves had thrown a massive rebellion in the south Haiti-style, I would defend them. In no way are my arguments here to be construed as a defense of the south. There is no question that a major benefit of the civil war was the early termination of slavery in the south.
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:44 am

Lincoln was strongly opposed to the extension of slavery into the federal territories. That, and saving the Union was his plan. He accomplished both. One of the disappointments we all need to acknowledge is that about no Southern statesman was brave enough, even posthumously, into declaring that slavery must end. That should have been the final message of every true patriot of the South. Maybe not this year, maybe not for five years, but slavery must be ended.
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Tugger
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:51 am

TSS wrote:
Image

What about Wales?

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TSS
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Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:11 am

Tugger wrote:
TSS wrote:
Image

What about Wales?


I don't know. The intricacy of the differences between "England", "Britain", "Great Britain", and "United Kingdom" is something Brits can keep straight but the rest of us struggle with. If I recall correctly, and there'll be one or more Brits all over me like a rash about this if I get it wrong, "Britain" is exactly that, just Britain, "Great Britain" includes Scotland and Wales, and "United Kingdom" includes Northern Ireland as well. Why the Welsh flag, possibly the coolest flag in the entire world (seriously, it has a DRAGON on it! How freakin' cool is that?) is not integrated into the Union Jack is beyond me.

The Flag of Wales-

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