Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Newark727
Posts: 1882
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:21 am

Tugger wrote:
What about Wales?

Tugg


Maybe a result of Wales being politically integrated into English rule sooner? IDK.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22333
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:28 am

BN747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
ethernal wrote:

The reason why state's rights was an issue was.. because of slavery. To say that the Civil War was fought over state's rights is like saying that it wasn't the fall that killed them, it was the ground. It's two sides of the exact same coin.


There were/are other issues with States Rights, not just slavery.


Oh, and in 1860..what were the 'other issues' re:States Rights?

BN747


Slavery was the major State's Rights issue. They wanted the few to rule over the many. The few to make the rules for all. Kinda like what we have how with the few with the most money telling the majority what to do

https://study.com/academy/lesson/states ... '%20rights.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GDB
Posts: 13681
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:42 am

Tugger wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Now, there’s a general notion that northern states weren’t as bad. I disagree with that. Slavery is slavery and New York had it, too. They were just as nasty to blacks as Mississippi or Georgia. And once New York banned slavery, it wasn’t all peaches, either... northern states had massive racial divide, Jim Crow type laws, etc. This path was then followed by southern states, too...

I'll take exception to that. The northern states were NOT as bad as proven out by the fact that they did in fact get rid of slavery on their own. The north did not fight a war to preserve the lack of rights for slaves, to continue to allow the ownership of other human beings. The north, while not perfect or all peaches and cream, fought AGAINST that.

There is no way you can reasonably say that is not better that what the south did.

Tugg


The same argument is used by Neo Nazi's who say for instance that the Allied bombing of Germany was akin to the holocaust, those who do not deny the latter even took place. A lot of denial on the Confederate rag defenders part too.
Also, funny how said rag is used as a symbol of far right hate groups outside the US too.

Internally, it is a symbol designed to denigrate and create fear in non whites, a screw you to them and the deniers cannot account why so many statues of traitors went up much more recently, in fact right around the time that what is on this Constitution actually became more like real life, with the Civil Rights legislation in the 1960's. Go on you 'heritage types', answer that.
It was a fuck you to the very idea of no more segregation and voting rights (which the GOP still suppress to this day), by a sullen bunch of (still) losers.

Thinking about Germany further, wasn't the reaction in the Southern US after the Civil War rather like endgame in WW1? Too many in Germany believed they were 'undefeated' and therefore 'stabbed in the back', by 'Jews', 'Communists' the usual scapegoats of the defeated extremists. We all know where that led.
But there was no such thing, or barely, in 1945 Germany.
Shame there wasn't a proto war crimes trial for the leaders of the Southern traitors.
 
GDB
Posts: 13681
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:54 am

TWA772LR wrote:
The Civil War began after Congress (comprised largely of congressmen from the north because of the higher population vs the south) passed numerous acts that favored the north more economically at the detriment of the south. Social differences also didn't help neither illustrated by the instance of a northern congressman ripping on the south and making personal attacks on a more-elderly congressman from SC (I think he was from SC) which enraged the other SC congressman who was the elderly guys nephew to the point of beating the northern congressman with his cane.

Fast forward to the 1860s, states are seceding because they essentially have become disenfranchised with the Union because and formed the CSA, spurred by years of a growing schism between north and south and accelerated with the election of Lincoln who didn't have a plan one way or another with slavery, arguably he just wanted to let the death of slavery run its course because the writing was on the wall anyway.

The newly formed CSA attacked the Union base, Ft. Sumter seeing it as a form of foreign aggression from a nation they broke off from. With hostilities officially started, Lincoln had no choice but to use force to enforce the integrity of the fabric of the United States and reintegrate the CSA to the Union.

England, where slavery was long abolished and very unpopular, became big trader with the CSA (read: cotton) and still had a beef with the Union. It was suspected that England could enter the Civil War on the side of the south. Lincoln knew he couldn't take them both on (England being the premier world power at the time and the CSA giving the Union a run for its money). Knowing Englands views on slavery, Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation, thus officially making slavery a defining aspect of the War. Once England saw that all ties were cut with the CSA (shifting cotton production and distribution to Bombay) and that was the biggest turning point toward Union victory in the Civil War.

Just outlining history as I was taught in history classes in high school and college (2009-2010 high school US history, 2011-2012 college US history, all in Texas). Not making a stance in favor or against but wanted to help illustrate the reasons behind southern secession and the build up to the Civil War, and a big spur to the abolition of slavery in the United States. This will be my only post in this thread, I ask that all responses and quotes from my post be respectful and civil. Responses and quotes will not see a response from me. Attacks on me will be reported to mods.


Not only that but post abolition in the UK sphere of influence, itself a major loss of human 'material' to be manacled and shipped across the pond, the Royal Navy interdicted many slave ships.
Abolition was achieved not by war but what would now be called 'SJW's', 'do-godders', etc. A half century before 'the land of the free'.
Wasn't quite as cut and dried, this was over 200 years ago, for instance the long running payments in compensation to the slave owners families and their descendants that continued into this century, hence the recent demos against the slavers who in part I suspect to if not atone, than at least be seen less harshly in society, became contributors to various causes and educational institutions.
Then again, we had 60 years of paying back the US for standing alone against Nazi Germany for 18 months in 1940/41, when the national coffers were emptied.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9627
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:21 pm

luckyone wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
ethernal wrote:

The Civil War was 100% fought over slavery. Or, perhaps better stated, the Civil War was 100% fought over the economic interests of slavery. In the South, rich people's wealth was entirely dependent upon plantations which were perceived to be entirely dependent on low cost (read: slave) labor to be competitive in international markets. Keep in mind that, in the US, the South was the historically wealthy part of the country in terms of gross domestic product. It was only with the sparking of the industrial revolution did the North become more of an economic powerhouse.

If you actually studied American political and economic history in depth, you would see that the topic of slavery was *the* biggest political and economic issue in the US for the two decades preceding the Civil War. Even going back to 1820 with the Missouri compromise, every new territory brought into statehood was carefully managed to keep "balance" between the slave states and the non-slave states to avoid political power favoring one group or the other. The Compromise of 1850 was a massive political appeasement motion to avoid civil war 15 years early followed by the Kansas-Nebraska Act. Dozens of minor but bloody skirmishes occurred in the outlying territories around the topic of slavery in the years running up to the Civil War.

The Civil War was about economic and political interests, but that economic and political interest had slavery at its core. Anyone who believes that the war was fought for any other underlying reason is delusional and is not a student of history.


That is incorrect. There were a litany of reasons, all well known and can be looked up easily.


“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery where it now exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.” Abraham Lincoln, inaugural address

I would encourage you to read the Declarations of Causes of Seceding States, and see how many reasons other than slavery show up.
Here's an excerpt from Mississippi -- "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

The second paragraph of Georgia's Declaration is summarized as "The northern states outnumber us. We can't have that." And the rest of the declaration goes on to state that the anti-slavery movement in the North is the cause of what they described as an oppression.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... ing-states


"Material interest" that is the huge point. Slavery was a industry like any other at the time and one that the South thought to be hugely important for their economy. While the north wanted to protect the Union, aka keeping control of the South.
Once firm control of the territory and economy was established again, the interest of the North to make the coloured person really equal largely went away. And that is exactly the point where the USA differs from other countries. It is not that the US was very late to end slavery, the big difference was that it came up with racial segregation after officially ending slavery and kept that going into the 1970ies in parts of the country. And imho the Confederate flag became a symbol of racism decades after the end of the civil war, when it was used by supporters of the racial segregation and the same can be said about many statues of Southern generals build in the 20th century. So imho the flag has no reason to be shown in any official form today.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:29 am

I hope they'd rename either Ft. Benning or Ft. Gordon to Ft. William Tecumseh Sherman. A general with a burning attraction to the state of Georgia.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:28 am

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
TSS wrote:



That has been tried before. It didn't work out.


That was a different time and a different issue.


Some would argue it is the same issue. Keeping one race above another. Class warfare. I think it is a good idea. TX, OK, KS, MO, KY, VA and everything south and east go back to their caste system and take their share of the debt with them. Give them like five years to set up a constitution and laws and whoever wants to leave can leave.


It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 10422
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

That was a different time and a different issue.


Some would argue it is the same issue. Keeping one race above another. Class warfare. I think it is a good idea. TX, OK, KS, MO, KY, VA and everything south and east go back to their caste system and take their share of the debt with them. Give them like five years to set up a constitution and laws and whoever wants to leave can leave.


It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.

Often I enjoy your posts, but this one is just vile. It shows you as petty and baiting. Perhaps if you went and spent time with some Maori and suggested similar to them they could explain and you would understand.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Some would argue it is the same issue. Keeping one race above another. Class warfare. I think it is a good idea. TX, OK, KS, MO, KY, VA and everything south and east go back to their caste system and take their share of the debt with them. Give them like five years to set up a constitution and laws and whoever wants to leave can leave.


It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.

Often I enjoy your posts, but this one is just vile. It shows you as petty and baiting. Perhaps if you went and spent time with some Maori and suggested similar to them they could explain and you would understand.

Tugg


Really what is wrong with splitting up the US, it’s been done many times before, recent examples being India, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Somalia.

I’ve spent plenty of time with maori, there has never been segregation in NZ, I went to school and university with maori, had maori neighbours, have maori friends, but I live in Norway now so finding maori to hang with isn’t easy. The closest one I know of is on an island off the coast from where I live, he’s not to friendly, his wife left him and took his kids, he doesn’t want to have anything to do with any of the kiwis or Aussies that live nearby.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:01 pm

TSS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
TSS wrote:
Image

What about Wales?


I don't know. The intricacy of the differences between "England", "Britain", "Great Britain", and "United Kingdom" is something Brits can keep straight but the rest of us struggle with. If I recall correctly, and there'll be one or more Brits all over me like a rash about this if I get it wrong, "Britain" is exactly that, just Britain, "Great Britain" includes Scotland and Wales, and "United Kingdom" includes Northern Ireland as well. Why the Welsh flag, possibly the coolest flag in the entire world (seriously, it has a DRAGON on it! How freakin' cool is that?) is not integrated into the Union Jack is beyond me.

The Flag of Wales-

Image


British are the people who live in Great Britain, Great Britain is the name of the Island off the coast of Europe, it is the largest island in the British Isles. Great Britain (the island) contains three counties, England, Scotland and Wales. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the name of the country comprising of those four states.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22333
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.

Often I enjoy your posts, but this one is just vile. It shows you as petty and baiting. Perhaps if you went and spent time with some Maori and suggested similar to them they could explain and you would understand.

Tugg


Really what is wrong with splitting up the US, it’s been done many times before, recent examples being India, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Somalia.

I’ve spent plenty of time with maori, there has never been segregation in NZ, I went to school and university with maori, had maori neighbours, have maori friends, but I live in Norway now so finding maori to hang with isn’t easy. The closest one I know of is on an island off the coast from where I live, he’s not to friendly, his wife left him and took his kids, he doesn’t want to have anything to do with any of the kiwis or Aussies that live nearby.


But that is not at all what I am suggesting. Reform the Confederacy since Republicans can't seem to get over it. Let them have their racist, no tax, heavy military, no public assistance, minorities are possessions and not people nation and the rest of the United States will continue on through the 21st Century.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15125
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:14 pm

The Confederate battle flag, along with statutes, monuments, street, government facilities, military bases names of CSA military and government leaders are as deeply offensive to in particular Black persons who ancestors were slaves as much as the Nazi symbol is to Jews. If a person on their private property even if visible to the public has a CSA battle flag or a statue of a CSA military or civil leader, they have our 1st Amendment rights to protect them but from social shaming, another use of 1st Amendment rights of free speech.

On public properties, with exceptions of museums of history and military cemeteries symbols of the CSA are offensive to a significant minority and must be removed by governments, not by mobs taking the law into their own hands. Hopefully in the next few years, we will find the display of the CSA battle flag to be very rare, the statues of CSA leaders to contextual museums, their names for public roads, place, structures and military base names pass into history. That will take sound leadership from both of our political parties, education of the public and social shaming to achieve that goal.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:00 pm

But you can’t just tackle people who were Confederate’s, if you’re going to clean house and sanitise history then you have to do it properly, rename anything that is named after anyone who owned slaves, including all those presidents.

In the UK people are petitioning to remove Nelson on from Trafalgar Square, people have defaced Churchill’s statue in Parliament Square, in NZ people want to remove statues of Capt Cook.

So either do it properly or don’t do it at all. Once the worlds sanitised and all the nasty white people have been removed and we all feel good about It, nothing will have changed because people don’t change.
 
BN747
Posts: 7836
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

That was a different time and a different issue.


Some would argue it is the same issue. Keeping one race above another. Class warfare. I think it is a good idea. TX, OK, KS, MO, KY, VA and everything south and east go back to their caste system and take their share of the debt with them. Give them like five years to set up a constitution and laws and whoever wants to leave can leave.


It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.


The only split required in the US is this type...
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6c91ea59f80702f1ddc51f168508a2bd4d33d99f2c9b8b88c7545b39bb2b6b57.jpg?w=800&h=587
Image

Because they want to continue the energy of a war their ancestors LOST. The Majority of Whites in America Do Not stand with these types.

They fail to recognize this FACT...
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bf ... =800&h=465
Image

..and there is nothing to contest about it.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
LMP737
Posts: 6032
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:48 pm

extender wrote:
It is called history. It's over a hundred years old. FFS, leave the damn bases alone. I know it hurts your feelings, but leave it alone.


It seems like the people's whose feelings are hurt the most are the one's opposed to it.

IMHO those bases should never have been named after people who were technically guilty of treason who fought to keep other people enslaved. Some of them were not even good generals. Change the names.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6032
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:51 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.


Oh yes, because that part of the world is a model of peace and tranquility.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
BN747
Posts: 7836
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:05 am

LMP737 wrote:
extender wrote:
It is called history. It's over a hundred years old. FFS, leave the damn bases alone. I know it hurts your feelings, but leave it alone.


It seems like the people's whose feelings are hurt the most are the one's opposed to it.

IMHO those bases should never have been named after people who were technically guilty of treason who fought to keep other people enslaved. Some of them were not even good generals. Change the names.


On two separate occasions, I lived on Fort Bragg, NC. As a kid I liked seeing Iron Mike (a Gigantic statue of a WWII/Vietnam G.I. ready for combat) at one of the base entrances, in 6th grade..I thought nothing of it.
The second time, as a middle schooler, I was now learning history and was conflicted by liking that place. I knew who Gen. Braxton Bragg was but available material at the time was in totally glowing terms. I'm sure it was the same at Ft. Polk, Ft. Hood and the others.

But if the truth is to be told...then let the chips fall where they may, change the name, Facts of history warrants that.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 10422
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:52 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.

Often I enjoy your posts, but this one is just vile. It shows you as petty and baiting. Perhaps if you went and spent time with some Maori and suggested similar to them they could explain and you would understand.

Tugg


Really what is wrong with splitting up the US, it’s been done many times before, recent examples being India, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Somalia.

I’ve spent plenty of time with maori, there has never been segregation in NZ, I went to school and university with maori, had maori neighbours, have maori friends, but I live in Norway now so finding maori to hang with isn’t easy. The closest one I know of is on an island off the coast from where I live, he’s not to friendly, his wife left him and took his kids, he doesn’t want to have anything to do with any of the kiwis or Aussies that live nearby.

Because what you are suggesting is racist at its CORE. There is no separating what you are recommending from a racist ideal. And I have nor seen you as racist previously. How you can't see that is disturbing.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:07 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Often I enjoy your posts, but this one is just vile. It shows you as petty and baiting. Perhaps if you went and spent time with some Maori and suggested similar to them they could explain and you would understand.

Tugg


Really what is wrong with splitting up the US, it’s been done many times before, recent examples being India, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Somalia.

I’ve spent plenty of time with maori, there has never been segregation in NZ, I went to school and university with maori, had maori neighbours, have maori friends, but I live in Norway now so finding maori to hang with isn’t easy. The closest one I know of is on an island off the coast from where I live, he’s not to friendly, his wife left him and took his kids, he doesn’t want to have anything to do with any of the kiwis or Aussies that live nearby.

Because what you are suggesting is racist at its CORE. There is no separating what you are recommending from a racist ideal. And I have nor seen you as racist previously. How you can't see that is disturbing.

Tugg


What’s racist about it, blue states and red states, there’s your two countries, people can move to whichever state they like the colour of.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 10422
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Really what is wrong with splitting up the US, it’s been done many times before, recent examples being India, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Somalia.

I’ve spent plenty of time with maori, there has never been segregation in NZ, I went to school and university with maori, had maori neighbours, have maori friends, but I live in Norway now so finding maori to hang with isn’t easy. The closest one I know of is on an island off the coast from where I live, he’s not to friendly, his wife left him and took his kids, he doesn’t want to have anything to do with any of the kiwis or Aussies that live nearby.

Because what you are suggesting is racist at its CORE. There is no separating what you are recommending from a racist ideal. And I have nor seen you as racist previously. How you can't see that is disturbing.

Tugg
What’s racist about it, blue states and red states, there’s your two countries, people can move to whichever state they like the colour of.


Rob, you are being disingenuous at best... You know that your original thought/post was:
Kiwirob wrote:
, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.

The colors you were suggesting was that of the persons skin, not political or religious ideology. You want "blacks" (whatever that actually covers) to go to one place, and "whites" (another wonderful all encompassing color) to segregate themselves and go somewhere else.

Glad to see that you are backtracking and trying to avoid that you went there because, again, THAT is racist at its core. Go float that idea, seriously, your exact quote, to your good Maori friends you speak of.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 13938
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:17 am

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/0 ... /24523528/

This man is not my favorite, but I agree with him on this issue for sure.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:53 am

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Because what you are suggesting is racist at its CORE. There is no separating what you are recommending from a racist ideal. And I have nor seen you as racist previously. How you can't see that is disturbing.

Tugg
What’s racist about it, blue states and red states, there’s your two countries, people can move to whichever state they like the colour of.


Rob, you are being disingenuous at best... You know that your original thought/post was:
Kiwirob wrote:
, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.

The colors you were suggesting was that of the persons skin, not political or religious ideology. You want "blacks" (whatever that actually covers) to go to one place, and "whites" (another wonderful all encompassing color) to segregate themselves and go somewhere else.

Glad to see that you are backtracking and trying to avoid that you went there because, again, THAT is racist at its core. Go float that idea, seriously, your exact quote, to your good Maori friends you speak of.

Tugg


There is of course the next option pack them onto planes and send them to Liberia. But as you’ve probably guessed I don’t actually care what happens, the situation in the US is ridiculous, amusing and sad, but it also confirms my believe that multi culturalism is a failed experiment.
Last edited by Kiwirob on Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 10422
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:01 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Glad to see that you are backtracking and trying to avoid that you went there because, again, THAT is racist at its core. Go float that idea, seriously, your exact quote, to your good Maori friends you speak of.

Tugg


There is of course the next option pack them onto planes and send them to Liberia. But as you’ve probably guessed I don’t actually care what happens, the situation in the US is ridiculous, amusing and sad, but it also confirms my believe that multi culturalism is a failed experiment.
That you want to I guess explains why you left NZ and went to Norway? I guess you didn't feel comfortable so took your own solution to heart.

Well to each their own.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9627
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:07 am

BN747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Some would argue it is the same issue. Keeping one race above another. Class warfare. I think it is a good idea. TX, OK, KS, MO, KY, VA and everything south and east go back to their caste system and take their share of the debt with them. Give them like five years to set up a constitution and laws and whoever wants to leave can leave.


It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.


The only split required in the US is this type...
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6c91ea59f80702f1ddc51f168508a2bd4d33d99f2c9b8b88c7545b39bb2b6b57.jpg?w=800&h=587
Image

Because they want to continue the energy of a war their ancestors LOST. The Majority of Whites in America Do Not stand with these types.

They fail to recognize this FACT...
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bf ... =800&h=465
Image

..and there is nothing to contest about it.

BN747


And these types will quickly find another symbol to use to promote their views. An ideology does not go away just because you remove its historic symbols.
 
BN747
Posts: 7836
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:07 am

seahawk wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It worked for India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.


The only split required in the US is this type...
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6c91ea59f80702f1ddc51f168508a2bd4d33d99f2c9b8b88c7545b39bb2b6b57.jpg?w=800&h=587
Image

Because they want to continue the energy of a war their ancestors LOST. The Majority of Whites in America Do Not stand with these types.

They fail to recognize this FACT...
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bf ... =800&h=465
Image

..and there is nothing to contest about it.

BN747


And these types will quickly find another symbol to use to promote their views. An ideology does not go away just because you remove its historic symbols.


Absolutely, and if they wish to have their 'like' state of affairs...let them have it and separate them as they offer nothing to the progress and advancement to the United States as a nation. They hang on to a past that they fantasize & romanticize about, knew nothing about and won't let go therefore are literally dead weight on society.

This a belief set is a detriment to America. Germany bans everything Nazi-associated, because horrific factual chapter is an affront to modern Germany - this Confedrate BS is an embarrassment and affront to the Modern day USA.

Just like Covid-Resisters, they want to party and barbecue in crowds - separate them and quarantine them from those who do not want to be associated with that risk.
The human version of Dolphins beaching themselves.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15125
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:40 am

In the USA, our Constitution's 1st Amendment and Supreme Court rulings protect the display of the CSA Battle Flag by private persons as offensive as it is. Unlike Germany and other countries, we do not ban the display of Nazi symbols as offensive as they are under the same protections. Our 1st Amendment also allows persons to use their free speech rights to oppose such displays but it doesn't give the right to use criminal violence in response.
The best way to deal with these symbols is to just turn you back on the persons that display them, to shun them from society, affect their incomes, use social media to 'out' them to their communities, their employers, their associations.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 22333
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:50 pm

ltbewr wrote:
In the USA, our Constitution's 1st Amendment and Supreme Court rulings protect the display of the CSA Battle Flag by private persons as offensive as it is. Unlike Germany and other countries, we do not ban the display of Nazi symbols as offensive as they are under the same protections. Our 1st Amendment also allows persons to use their free speech rights to oppose such displays but it doesn't give the right to use criminal violence in response.
The best way to deal with these symbols is to just turn you back on the persons that display them, to shun them from society, affect their incomes, use social media to 'out' them to their communities, their employers, their associations.


We have been doing that and look what happens. It emboldens them to be even worse.

My favorite meme going around right now is how Republicans keep saying "but Democrats supported slavery" so when modern Democrats say "fine, we will take down our monuments and statues" Republicans whine about "don't erase our heritage!" You know: like they can have it both ways.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
BN747
Posts: 7836
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:30 pm

At the true core of Modern day (1950s til now) of Stars and Bars worship and idolization.

Image
https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=https%3 ... =800&h=828

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:31 am

It's a terrorist flag just like Daesh's flag. If your southern history is enslaving, terrorizing, and assassinating Black people WHILE being traitors to the United States of America...than that's something right there. Southern history has so much more than that. Some dusty white people hang onto that rag though....why?
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2590
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, and the North was a so clean, free of any racism or slavery. Do you any American history?

Well, by the time the Civil War erupted, all Northern states had abolished slavery (North meaning states north of the Mason Dixon line, except MO). New states being admitted were balanced: slave state with free state. Four slave states remained with the Union. The balance was altered by 1861, when there were 19 free states vs 15 slave states.

No, the North was not clean either, but it made better strides to correct the issues than the South. Jim Crow laws might have been unofficially enforced in the North, but it was codified into law and even constitutions in many Southern states. Where the North was already allowing Blacks to participate in society, the South had to be forced to end segregation through a Supreme Court ruling and national guard action.

When faced between picking a criminal who had shown redemption and one who shows no remorse, I'll take the one that has shown redemption any day. Neither is clean, but the former has better promise of being just than the latter.


Nice try, but Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland and Missouri we’re Northern slave states and Maryland didn’t end outlaw slavery until 1864 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves in Southern states. Lincoln couldn’t free slaves in Maryland because of, you know, politics.


The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in states and portions of states that were not in the control of the Union. It did not apply to parts of Louisiana, Tennessee, and portions of other Confederate states already controlled by the Union army. I would give Lincoln some slack for taking political reality into consideration. He needed to make sure none of the border states left the Union. Winning the war ultimately lead to the adoption of the 13th Amendment. Sure it was proposed before the end of the war, but the end with a clear victory was well within sight.
 
BN747
Posts: 7836
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:22 am

Pellegrine wrote:
It's a terrorist flag just like Daesh's flag.


It really is, there simply no 'good excuse' to be found anywhere to justify it's public display anywhere.

It is a private owners right to fly it on his lawn house or business...but the image that comes to mind when most people see it, the Zimmerman post is imagery that comes to mind..or worse.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:07 am

BN747 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
It's a terrorist flag just like Daesh's flag.


It really is, there simply no 'good excuse' to be found anywhere to justify it's public display anywhere.

It is a private owners right to fly it on his lawn house or business...but the image that comes to mind when most people see it, the Zimmerman post is imagery that comes to mind..or worse.

BN747


One of the most ANNOYING instances of this is some KKK chapter decided to buy land in VA right along I-95 (I can't remember if it's south or north of Richmond, VA), a major highway, and fly a HUGE confederate flag. That flag should be considered one of terrorists and traitors.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
BN747
Posts: 7836
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:47 am

Pellegrine wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
It's a terrorist flag just like Daesh's flag.


It really is, there simply no 'good excuse' to be found anywhere to justify it's public display anywhere.

It is a private owners right to fly it on his lawn house or business...but the image that comes to mind when most people see it, the Zimmerman post is imagery that comes to mind..or worse.

BN747


One of the most ANNOYING instances of this is some KKK chapter decided to buy land in VA right along I-95 (I can't remember if it's south or north of Richmond, VA), a major highway, and fly a HUGE confederate flag. That flag should be considered one of terrorists and traitors.


well ppl have the right to throw away their cash if they want...I see no profit in that at all.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Kno
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:08 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:10 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
What’s racist about it, blue states and red states, there’s your two countries, people can move to whichever state they like the colour of.


Rob, you are being disingenuous at best... You know that your original thought/post was:
Kiwirob wrote:
, you could split the US blacks go to one area, whites another.

The colors you were suggesting was that of the persons skin, not political or religious ideology. You want "blacks" (whatever that actually covers) to go to one place, and "whites" (another wonderful all encompassing color) to segregate themselves and go somewhere else.

Glad to see that you are backtracking and trying to avoid that you went there because, again, THAT is racist at its core. Go float that idea, seriously, your exact quote, to your good Maori friends you speak of.

Tugg


There is of course the next option pack them onto planes and send them to Liberia. But as you’ve probably guessed I don’t actually care what happens, the situation in the US is ridiculous, amusing and sad, but it also confirms my believe that multi culturalism is a failed experiment.


Damn Rob say it ain’t so.

I’m going to have to strongly agree with Tugger on this one. I’ve respected and appreciated most of your posts but you’ve went strong off the racist deep end on this one and it really shows a lack of understanding and context and just genuine human empathy on your behalf. You’d be hard pressed to see me judge others here and I don’t know if this post will get flagged but I feel like I have to say something.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, are you pro segregation and truly believe this is the best option for humans?
 
BN747
Posts: 7836
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:50 am

Sokes wrote:
I believe Americans from the North shouldn't criticize the flag. You will just provoke a blow back.
It's good if Southern Whites criticize it.
The attitude will change by actions of White supremacist, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylann_Roof
Nobody wants to be stupid, so nothing beats humor.


Ummm there are plenty of tv shows to counter that 'Nobody wants to be stupid' comment and the number who enjoy it rank higher.

Your believe the North should criticize the flag must come from a very limited understanding what occurred here in America.

Secondly, if you'll never get Southerns in unison to condemn that, not chance in hell for that. If you leave it totally up to them there be at least 1000s if not 10's of thousands more on display.
Although, I personally feel that the younger the Southerner, the more likely they'll be as tainted as their parents and elders...but the elder diehards are doing their best to hold on 'heritage - the unspoken' kind.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12857
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: The Confederate Flag - Stars & Bars and Southern heritage

Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:39 am

Kno wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:

Rob, you are being disingenuous at best... You know that your original thought/post was:

The colors you were suggesting was that of the persons skin, not political or religious ideology. You want "blacks" (whatever that actually covers) to go to one place, and "whites" (another wonderful all encompassing color) to segregate themselves and go somewhere else.

Glad to see that you are backtracking and trying to avoid that you went there because, again, THAT is racist at its core. Go float that idea, seriously, your exact quote, to your good Maori friends you speak of.

Tugg


There is of course the next option pack them onto planes and send them to Liberia. But as you’ve probably guessed I don’t actually care what happens, the situation in the US is ridiculous, amusing and sad, but it also confirms my believe that multi culturalism is a failed experiment.


Damn Rob say it ain’t so.

I’m going to have to strongly agree with Tugger on this one. I’ve respected and appreciated most of your posts but you’ve went strong off the racist deep end on this one and it really shows a lack of understanding and context and just genuine human empathy on your behalf. You’d be hard pressed to see me judge others here and I don’t know if this post will get flagged but I feel like I have to say something.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, are you pro segregation and truly believe this is the best option for humans?


I'm not pro anything, maybe I should have stuck a smilie face after that comment. If you have two kids in the playground who constantly fight, you separate them, I think if we continue to try and force multiculturalism onto everyone we are just going to end up more fragmented and broken than we are today.

In the UK last week you have recent immigrants protesting about historical figures from the past, what right have they got to protest Nelson or Churchill? If it wasn't for Churchill there wouldn't have been a Britain for these people to immigrate to. Nelson is a Royal Navy hero.

Merkel said it better than I could.

"Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies and therefore remains a ‘life lie,’ ” or a sham, she said, before adding that Germany may be reaching its limits in terms of accepting more refugees. "The challenge is immense," she said. "We want and we will reduce the number of refugees noticeably."

Although those remarks may seem uncharacteristic of Merkel, she probably would insist that she was not contradicting herself. In fact, she was only repeating a sentiment she first voiced several years ago when she said multiculturalism in Germany had "utterly failed."

"Of course the tendency had been to say, 'Let's adopt the multicultural concept and live happily side by side, and be happy to be living with each other.' But this concept has failed, and failed utterly," she said in 2010.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArchGuy1, BlueberryWheats, David_itl, melpax, tommy1808 and 61 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos