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Mortyman
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Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:18 pm

Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

President Donald Trump has authorized economic sanctions against members of the International Criminal Court who are investigating possible war crimes by American personnel during the war in Afghanistan, the White House announced Thursday.

The new move is part of a concerted campaign against the international court and its probe into possible war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by U.S. and other forces in that conflict.

"This administration will not allow American citizens who have served our country to be subjected to illegitimate investigations," Secretary of Defense Mark Esper said Thursday at an event announcing the action.

Human rights advocates denounced the Trump administration’s decision as "reckless," charging the U.S. with trying to evade accountability for alleged torture and other war crimes.


https://news.yahoo.com/trump-authorize- ... 14958.html


Well, I am not surprised. The US always think it's above international law, yet is happy to put anyone else in front of the ICC.


The EU, France and Norway is not happy with US action.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:03 am

“The U.S. is not a party to the statute, but Afghanistan is, and the U.S. cannot escape accountability just because it commits crimes in other countries.”


"We cannot allow ICC officials and their families to come to the United States to shop, travel and otherwise enjoy American freedoms as these same officials seek to prosecute the defender of those very freedoms," Pompeo said.


So committing war crimes in foreign countries is defending US freedoms ?
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:30 pm

Aesma wrote:
So committing war crimes in foreign countries is defending US freedoms ?

Exporting US freedoms all around the world, one mass-shooting at a time! ;)
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:14 am

Mortyman wrote:
The US always think it's above international law, yet is happy to put anyone else in front of the ICC.


Yes, America seems to think that, sanctioned by their politicians. Not surprised at all, since there was a law by the Bush administration which went a lot further than that. Bush did sign into law the The Hague Invasion Act. It authorizes US forces to invade another NATO country to get their personal out of the hands of the ICC. So they are prepared to go all the way........

It just underminds the US as a global leader for justice.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:18 am

I don’t think many people in the world are happy with the US today. There domestic mess is spilling out across the world, this is just another nail in the US coffin.
 
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:05 pm

No wonder, Trump wants out of Europe and, then, Europe complains about the US redeploy8 g troops. Make up your damned minds and defend yourselves.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I don’t think many people in the world are happy with the US today. There domestic mess is spilling out across the world, this is just another nail in the US coffin.


It’s not just “spilling out”, it’s being coordinated and funded from the same “think tanks”.
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:30 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No wonder, Trump wants out of Europe and, then, Europe complains about the US redeploy8 g troops. Make up your damned minds and defend yourselves.


Typical American reaction. Once you think you don't need someone anymore or you think you're not getting your way every time you throw a temper tantrum and go home.

How many US servicemen have been treated for wounds sustained on Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center via Ramstien AB? Wonder how many of them would have survived without those bases? I wonder how much harder it would have been to conduct operations in the previously mentioned places without bases in Germany. You are aware that German soldiers have fought and died in Afghanistan are you not? Which means there are families in Germany that most families in the USA have never experienced, that dreaded knock on the door.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:24 am

Afghanistan isn't in Europe. Just saying.

Personally I think there should be no US troops in Europe, but then again I'm French so my country did that a long time ago.

Also, many European countries went to Afghanistan, so that trial would probably be uncomfortable for many here. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:58 am

Aesma wrote:
Afghanistan isn't in Europe. Just saying.

Personally I think there should be no US troops in Europe, but then again I'm French so my country did that a long time ago.

Also, many European countries went to Afghanistan, so that trial would probably be uncomfortable for many here. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.


No having US troops in Europe worked out so well in the last century. Are the French up for Round Four?
 
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:02 am

LMP737 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No wonder, Trump wants out of Europe and, then, Europe complains about the US redeploy8 g troops. Make up your damned minds and defend yourselves.


Typical American reaction. Once you think you don't need someone anymore or you think you're not getting your way every time you throw a temper tantrum and go home.

How many US servicemen have been treated for wounds sustained on Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center via Ramstien AB? Wonder how many of them would have survived without those bases? I wonder how much harder it would have been to conduct operations in the previously mentioned places without bases in Germany. You are aware that German soldiers have fought and died in Afghanistan are you not? Which means there are families in Germany that most families in the USA have never experienced, that dreaded knock on the door.


Quite familiar, as an airlifted, I flew many troops and their equipment over and their bodies and wreckage back. Been to Ramstein many times. The Germans were so supportive of those wars, too. They came out in huge throngs to protest US presence in Germany and those wars.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:27 am

Aesma wrote:
So committing war crimes in foreign countries is defending US freedoms ?


When they say "defending US freedoms" (or "values" for that reason) this usually means "defending interests of the Party currently in power in the USA". And they do it any way they see necessary. Overall, this is typical for the US foreign policy - they will be happy with any international organization as long as the organization helps them advance their interests. If the organization doesn't work for them - they simply don't take part in it. If it goes against them - then they have a lot of instruments to try and impede the organization's progress.

And overall, USA, as any other sovereign nation, do not recognize the authority of any other court (except an American one) over their citizens.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:55 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No wonder, Trump wants out of Europe and, then, Europe complains about the US redeploy8 g troops. Make up your damned minds and defend yourselves.


This! The US needs to get out of NATO now, it is a bad deal for the USA.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:56 am

seahawk wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No wonder, Trump wants out of Europe and, then, Europe complains about the US redeploy8 g troops. Make up your damned minds and defend yourselves.


This! The US needs to get out of NATO now, it is a bad deal for the USA.


If leaving Europe, consider this:

* You will not be allowed to sail or operate from European waters or land bases

* You will not be able to gather inteligence information

* You will not be able to use bases and use Europe as a springboard into areas of interest such as the Middle East and an increasingly active arctic region.

* Europeans will stop buying millitary Equipment from the US and will incresingly develope and buy European

* Europe will stop / or at least investing less in the US

* European nations will stop lending USA Money

* USA will not have the buffer against Russia

* The US will be experiencing a far more opposing Europe in the UN, WTO, ICC etc


What is a bad deal for the US, is all the party games that US politicians insist on playing in the Middle East, South America and other remote places for no good reason other than to enrich themselves. That is the bad deal.


The US is the largest economic contributor to NATO, but you are are also the biggest beneficiary economically and otherwise.


That said, I understand the frustration many Americans are feeling, but you need to direct your frustration to Washington first and foremost.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:11 am

I think the relationship simply has run its course. Something like NATO depends on trust and common values, this foundation is gone.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:40 am

Sure, let's look into interests of Trump's political group.

Mortyman wrote:
If leaving Europe, consider this:

* You will not be allowed to sail or operate from European waters or land bases

Does the USA care? If they focus on themselves, then this is secondary. Plus, 1/3 of the EU has political elites grown in the USA (pretty much all of the Eastern Europe) and will provide anything required to the United States.

Mortyman wrote:
* You will not be able to gather inteligence information


Assuming that there are things European services can add to US's Five Eyes.

Mortyman wrote:
* You will not be able to use bases and use Europe as a springboard into areas of interest such as the Middle East and an increasingly active arctic region.


There is Alaska for Arctic access. What happens to Finland and Norway interests - well, let them negotiate with Russia. Finland will do alright, but not so sure about Norway.

Mortyman wrote:
* Europeans will stop buying millitary Equipment from the US and will incresingly develope and buy European


They are doing it mostly anyway (Western Europe at least; anyone else doesn't have much in terms of budgets).


Mortyman wrote:
* Europe will stop / or at least investing less in the US
* European nations will stop lending USA Money


Really? Those are bigger and bigger borrowers lately.

Mortyman wrote:
* USA will not have the buffer against Russia


The USA has the whole Atlantic ocean as the buffer. EU does not, only Poland in between.

Mortyman wrote:
* The US will be experiencing a far more opposing Europe in the UN, WTO, ICC etc


I don't see anyone in the US caring.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:42 am

seahawk wrote:
I think the relationship simply has run its course. Something like NATO depends on trust and common values, this foundation is gone.


Well, Europeans can't really trust the US to be on the right side of things. Fighting wars just so that a certain clientel in Washington get their paycheck and see young American soldiers die and get wounded for no good reason is something that an increasing amount of Europeans have a problem With I think and so should you.

And just to make things clear, Norway has been in Afghanistan since 2001 and was one of thje first countries to deploy there. We were also one of the countries that bombed the most in Libya, so in no way are we just sitting idle. However the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya has done nothing to help those nations and only strenghtend the enemy and weakend the USA and the NATO alliance. They have more or less been failures that ha come With Heavy losses both financially and human wise and it's time for some critical thinking I think.
Last edited by Mortyman on Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:43 am

seahawk wrote:
This! The US needs to get out of NATO now, it is a bad deal for the USA.


30 years past due.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:16 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Afghanistan isn't in Europe. Just saying.

Personally I think there should be no US troops in Europe, but then again I'm French so my country did that a long time ago.

Also, many European countries went to Afghanistan, so that trial would probably be uncomfortable for many here. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.


No having US troops in Europe worked out so well in the last century. Are the French up for Round Four?


Yes, that's why we have our own, independently developed and controlled, nuclear weapons.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Olddog
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:24 am

And please, let us laugh at the though of Russia successfully invading EU. It never worked once in history. The main danger from Russia comes thru corruption and internet fake news.
Signature censored
 
GDB
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:57 am

Aesma wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Afghanistan isn't in Europe. Just saying.

Personally I think there should be no US troops in Europe, but then again I'm French so my country did that a long time ago.

Also, many European countries went to Afghanistan, so that trial would probably be uncomfortable for many here. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.


No having US troops in Europe worked out so well in the last century. Are the French up for Round Four?


Yes, that's why we have our own, independently developed and controlled, nuclear weapons.


CDG's 1966 hissy fit, was nothing to do with that. Same year he went to Canada and tried to stir things up with the Franco-Canadian population. Commenting on CDG's apparent call for a 'liberated' Quebec, the Canadian PM said 'they are free, as are all Canadians, as too are the French due in no small part to the Canadians who fell in France in two world wars'.

And the first generation of French SLBM's had to use US sourced equipment for their navigation. Luckily by then, the US had accepted (or rather given up trying to stop), the UK and France developing and deploying strategic nuclear systems. A change from the early 60's.

The command and control system, the airborne component, for the subs, only two nuclear powers have also an airborne comms system, the US and France, the latter were installed in a couple of modified C-160NG's, guess where the equipment was sourced?

When France left NATO, he rang President Johnson and was quite rude about it, as in get your troops out NOW. LBJ replied 'even the ones buried there?'
But at least then they were mature enough to know this was one man's Anglophobia, his resentments. Plus it showed a massive contrast to the Warsaw Pact, no US retaliation, at all. Much less military force.
They would have also known that the French military and intel chiefs, at least in private to them, were horrified by the potential weakening of NATO, that France would be at a stroke cut from decision making and influence, from intel (still a sore point decades later).
Intelligence historians rate it as the biggest blow post war, to French intelligence gathering, the KGB and GRU never did anything like that damage.

Once CDG was out of power, then cold in the ground, slowly, crab like, the movers and shakers in French military and intel started to move closer back, NATO members in all but name. By the 1980's considerably so.
Still, it took longer than that for the trust they had before to be regained. Intel wise it never fully has.

Really, his move was about the presence of some US (and other NATO allies) in France was a living counter to his 'France liberated itself' stance.

In fact I have cited the shooting in foot move by CDG as a sort of French version of Brexit, naturally those keen on the latter never knew of the former, then again I find they don't know much about anything the tabloids don't tell them.

So LBJ, not known for his adeptness in foreign affairs to put it mildly, acted far more reasonably with France in 1966 than the US of GWB and much worse, Trump. At least in dealing with allies.
(And this POTUS did not have a good relationship with the British PM, Wilson, either. Mainly due to Wilson's refusal to send British troops to Vietnam, even a token force).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No wonder, Trump wants out of Europe and, then, Europe complains about the US redeploy8 g troops. Make up your damned minds and defend yourselves.


Do you have an opinion about. the subject at hand? Do you feel that the American soldiers are above the law? Do you feel it is ok to sabotage international law in going after the people enforcing it? Do you feel it is ok for putting your military to work to ensure nobody is trailed for war crimes committed by the US military?

Just a few questions that popped up in my head, when reading your non-relevant contribution.

E.g. Europe isn't a factor, it is the International Criminal Court, just happens to be located in a European city. But you are welcome to leave and take your atomic weapons with you. If you do not share our values of making the world a bit better than I am ok with it. Nobody is going to attack Europe, only America is stronger - in military power I mean - than Europe. Before some members start, Russia with it's useless nuclear arsenal is not a threat in a conventional way.

Curious if you will honestly answer the questions I have put forward in the first paragraph.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:12 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Sure, let's look into interests of Trump's political group.
Mortyman wrote:
If leaving Europe, consider this:
* You will not be allowed to sail or operate from European waters or land bases

Does the USA care? If they focus on themselves, then this is secondary. Plus, 1/3 of the EU has political elites grown in the USA (pretty much all of the Eastern Europe) and will provide anything required to the United States.
Mortyman wrote:
* You will not be able to gather inteligence information

Assuming that there are things European services can add to US's Five Eyes.
Mortyman wrote:
* You will not be able to use bases and use Europe as a springboard into areas of interest such as the Middle East and an increasingly active arctic region.

There is Alaska for Arctic access. What happens to Finland and Norway interests - well, let them negotiate with Russia. Finland will do alright, but not so sure about Norway.
Mortyman wrote:
* Europeans will stop buying millitary Equipment from the US and will incresingly develope and buy European

They are doing it mostly anyway (Western Europe at least; anyone else doesn't have much in terms of budgets).
Mortyman wrote:
* Europe will stop / or at least investing less in the US
* European nations will stop lending USA Money

Really? Those are bigger and bigger borrowers lately.
Mortyman wrote:
* USA will not have the buffer against Russia

The USA has the whole Atlantic ocean as the buffer. EU does not, only Poland in between.
Mortyman wrote:
* The US will be experiencing a far more opposing Europe in the UN, WTO, ICC etc

I don't see anyone in the US caring.


anrec80 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
This! The US needs to get out of NATO now, it is a bad deal for the USA.

30 years past due.


It is always interesting to see what you Russian propaganda has to say. Unfortunately, what is "best" for Russia is not necessarily best for the USA; indeed, despite Russia's disastrous economic situation and role as a political outcast - or perhaps because of it - they continue to pollute other countries' political discussions and attempt to undermine the institutions that keep those countries strong.

To wit: see above...


https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/s ... uding-ours

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank ... om-europe/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/us/p ... crats.html
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:15 pm

Olddog wrote:
And please, let us laugh at the though of Russia successfully invading EU. It never worked once in history. The main danger from Russia comes thru corruption and internet fake news.


The Ukrainians - particularly those still living in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine - would disagree with you.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:46 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
And please, let us laugh at the though of Russia successfully invading EU. It never worked once in history. The main danger from Russia comes thru corruption and internet fake news.


The Ukrainians - particularly those still living in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine - would disagree with you.


The Ukraine doesn't outspent, outgun, outartillery, outaircraft, outhelicopter, outtank, outship... you get the idea, Russia by a factor of 3-4 or more.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:12 pm

GDB wrote:
When France left NATO, he rang President Johnson and was quite rude about it, as in get your troops out NOW. LBJ replied 'even the ones buried there?


I’ve seen that urban legend around a lot, it was actually the US Secretary of State at the time, Dean Rusk, who was said to have made the comment, with the only evidence of it being a claim in Rusk’s autobiography.

What I don’t understand is why no one makes the very obvious comeback to that retort, in response to the American De Gaulle or whoever should have smugly said:

Fine, and we’ll take back the thousands of Frenchmen who sacrificed their lives to help your country win it’s independence in your Revolutionary War”....
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:14 pm

alfa164 wrote:
It is always interesting to see what you Russian propaganda has to say. Unfortunately, what is "best" for Russia is not necessarily best for the USA; indeed, despite Russia's disastrous economic situation and role as a political outcast - or perhaps because of it - they continue to pollute other countries' political discussions and attempt to undermine the institutions that keep those countries strong.


NATO matter (just as this thread) is not about Russia. It's quite clear that in the USA there are two major political lines - a pro-globalization one (represented by primarily democrats) and self-isolation one (most Republicans are on this one). The former ones still declare their with to continue alliances as they are, while the isolationists prefer to get the USA back within its own borders, fix up its problems first, re-industrialize the country. For that, they need to clear world markets as much as they can, using any means accessible to them. They see Europe as a major economic competitor, and to defend it for free - thanks but no thanks. Hence you see Trump doing what he is.

Even if Democrats get to power later this year, they will be hit with traditional US problems - trillion dollar deficits, trade deficits, etc. And might find that they need to do what Trump is doing now - it's just the rhetoric will be a bit softer, but overall direction will still be there. Europe needs to be ready for that. Russia not only has nothing to do here, but also the only place where EU can get some meaningful help if the USA decides to launch a real economic attack against EU (not just a few individuals here and there).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:22 pm

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
It is always interesting to see what you Russian propaganda has to say. Unfortunately, what is "best" for Russia is not necessarily best for the USA; indeed, despite Russia's disastrous economic situation and role as a political outcast - or perhaps because of it - they continue to pollute other countries' political discussions and attempt to undermine the institutions that keep those countries strong.


NATO matter (just as this thread) is not about Russia. It's quite clear that in the USA there are two major political lines - a pro-globalization one (represented by primarily democrats) and self-isolation one (most Republicans are on this one). The former ones still declare their with to continue alliances as they are, while the isolationists prefer to get the USA back within its own borders, fix up its problems first, re-industrialize the country. For that, they need to clear world markets as much as they can, using any means accessible to them. They see Europe as a major economic competitor, and to defend it for free - thanks but no thanks. Hence you see Trump doing what he is.

Even if Democrats get to power later this year, they will be hit with traditional US problems - trillion dollar deficits, trade deficits, etc. And might find that they need to do what Trump is doing now - it's just the rhetoric will be a bit softer, but overall direction will still be there. Europe needs to be ready for that. Russia not only has nothing to do here, but also the only place where EU can get some meaningful help if the USA decides to launch a real economic attack against EU (not just a few individuals here and there).


Your Russian propaganda is off-topic. The EU is not a factor here, regional and small economic power Russia is not a factor here. It is the International Court of Criminal Justice.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Trump to authorize sanctions against ICC members probing possible Afghan war crimes by US personnel

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:20 pm

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