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Aaron747
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SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:21 pm

In a 5-4 ruling, the Supreme Court has ruled that the manner in which the Trump administration ended DACA in 2017 was 'arbitrary and capricious'. While at face value a narrow ruling on administrative law, upon closer inspection the dissenting opinions also criticized DHS workflow by the current administration.

In the opinion they cite numerous examples of DHS and then-AG failure to delineate the issues affecting DACA recipients and employ policy analysis consistent with past DHS leadership. Justice Roberts even quoted specific DHS statements from the administration that did not logically follow policy statements that had previously been made. In the final analysis:

We do not decide whether DACA or its rescission are
sound policies. “The wisdom” of those decisions “is none of
our concern.” Chenery II, 332 U. S., at 207. We address
only whether the agency complied with the procedural requirement
that it provide a reasoned explanation for its action. Here the agency
failed to consider the conspicuous issues of whether to retain
forbearance and what if anything to do about the hardship to
DACA recipients. That dual failure raises doubts about whether the
agency appreciated the scope of its discretion or exercised that
discretion in a reasonable manner.


https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 7_5ifl.pdf

Translation? This is what you get when you staff the WH cabinet with amateur hour.

Naturally 45 is coming right out of the gate with fear-bating for his base, claiming that they are gunning for the 2nd amendment next. What is the evidence that this decision is politically-charged? I guess we'll need to 'wait and see', perhaps?

"These horrible & politically charged decisions coming out of the Supreme Court are shotgun blasts into the face of people that are proud to call themselves Republicans or Conservatives. We need more Justices or we will lose our 2nd. Amendment & everything else. Vote Trump 2020!"

https://www.axios.com/supreme-court-dac ... e3e12.html
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luckyone
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:24 pm

How dare five unelected judges make a decision like this!!!!
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:48 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Naturally 45 is coming right out of the gate with fear-bating for his base, claiming that they are gunning for the 2nd amendment next.

I'm interested in knowing how the MAGATS crowd believes the SCOTUS will find the 2nd Amendment unconstitutional. They're probably throwing hissyfits at the idea that even amendments are not unlimited. The right to vote is there, but that doesn't stop them from putting restrictions for it. Discrimination is illegal in terms of gender and race, but reforming the system to ensure true equality is still out of reach...but somehow, restrictions on gun ownership is bad. Even their favorite justice said it's not unlimited.

This does open the question though to how to find an amendment unconstitutional, because an amendment is either allowing or restricting something that the Constitution restricts/allows or is silent about, and therefore IS constitutional. Say that, by some miracle, the 28th Amendment to the Constitution repeals the 2nd Amendment and instead redefines it to set forth the criteria under which arm ownership is allowed (just how the 21st Amendment repeals the 18th, but sets some conditions)...does the MAGATS crowd believe such an amendment could be struck down? And what does that say if an amendment seeking to favor one class over another is passed (e.g. and amendment repealing the 1st Amendment so that Christianity is set as THE religion and non-Christians are segregated)?
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:56 pm

Translation, Trump is incompetent, and so it his administration.

The whole process of ending DACA was heartless and there is still no legal resolution within Congress to a class of people that wound up in the US by no fault of their own.
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
" [...] We need more Justices [...]"

Key word "We"... who is "we"? It is not being used as a unifier, i.e. the nation, it is used as a divider, to dived the nation and it's citizens. Everyone wants their own private justices, beholden to them alone. Beholden to one thing. "Conservative" or "Liberal". And to be "their justice".

That is wrong on every level. I don't care what "side" you are on.

I want justices who think, deeply, carefully, and apply their jurisprudence on everything brought before them. No bots, no "I can only do one thing". I want thought. And yes, I know a lot of people out there don't want that. They want definitions and for a justice to not be able top stray from whatever that is. I want human thought and intelligence applied. I appreciated Gorsuch's reasoning in his recent decision statement (and especially enjoyed his blast at "originalists") even though he is often described by the definition of "textualist" and that is how he made his decision, I see thought in what was rendered. I want justices swinging all over the place.

Tugg
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trpmb6
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:11 pm

Trump's tweet was stupid and childish. He should have echoed Justice Thomas' dissent. The fact that the majority decided to not rule on the merits of DACA, but rather the way in which DHS dismantled DACA just shows that there is no legal standing for DACA in the first place, as Thomas lays out.
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:14 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Trump's tweet was stupid and childish. He should have echoed Justice Thomas' dissent. The fact that the majority decided to not rule on the merits of DACA, but rather the way in which DHS dismantled DACA just shows that there is no legal standing for DACA in the first place, as Thomas lays out.



The Case was not about the legal standing of DACA though.

I think the Dissent's were written to force Congress to act, because if DACA was ended, the Judicial branch would have created a tragedy as former soldiers , people brought here as babies and young children and have lived their whole life here would have no legal standing. This is why DACA was created in the first place, to end a stale mate of incompetence in the legislative branch.
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:16 pm

casinterest wrote:
Translation, Trump is incompetent, and so it his administration.

The whole process of ending DACA was heartless and there is still no legal resolution within Congress to a class of people that wound up in the US by no fault of their own.

That people were brought here and grew up here, and were not "at fault" for that action is another issue. The fact remains that the person is here illegally and the US immigration policy, laws, and enforcement did not do the job properly in the first place.

To me the big issue with the DACA people is that the program was offered and people came forward and identified themselves. Those people were putting themselves at risk and placing their trust in the structure and laws and commitment of the USA, and that was broken by Trump's action. You can't tell people "Everyone who wants free ice cream step forward" and then kill those people. That is why I agree with the ruling.

There are still people that would have qualified for DACA but did not step forward. Those people are still at risk for deportation. But also those people were not "known" and so not going to be automatically refused by the USA as Trump's DACA stance would have done. And yes I know Congress just has to act to solve the whole problem but again, here Trumps is also acting. To divide the Congress, to force his desire upon whatever is decided, attacking any that go against him.

That type of "leader" (cultist, populist, absolutist, etc.) needs to be defeated. The nation should never be based on one persons ideal. It should be based on cooperation, decisions made together and good compromise when needed.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:26 pm

Tugger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Translation, Trump is incompetent, and so it his administration.

The whole process of ending DACA was heartless and there is still no legal resolution within Congress to a class of people that wound up in the US by no fault of their own.

That people were brought here and grew up here, and were not "at fault" for that action is another issue. The fact remains that the person is here illegally and the US immigration policy, laws, and enforcement did not do the job properly in the first place.

To me the big issue with the DACA people is that the program was offered and people came forward and identified themselves. Those people were putting themselves at risk and placing their trust in the structure and laws and commitment of the USA, and that was broken by Trump's action. You can't tell people "Everyone who wants free ice cream step forward" and then kill those people. That is why I agree with the ruling.

There are still people that would have qualified for DACA but did not step forward. Those people are still at risk for deportation. But also those people were not "known" and so not going to be automatically refused by the USA as Trump's DACA stance would have done. And yes I know Congress just has to act to solve the whole problem but again, here Trumps is also acting. To divide the Congress, to force his desire upon whatever is decided, attacking any that go against him.

That type of "leader" (cultist, populist, absolutist, etc.) needs to be defeated. The nation should never be based on one persons ideal. It should be based on cooperation, decisions made together and good compromise when needed.

Tugg

DACA was supposed to be a bridge to the dream act, but that has been shut down by Trump and his racist overtones.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:28 pm

Reading over the decision, all I see is Roberts saying "if you want to end DACA, fine, but do it some other way", which is what you would expect a SC to say.

A small win for Dreamers. Roberts further cement his standing as the "swing" justice.
 
apodino
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:58 pm

It's important to note what this ruling is and isn't. This ruling does not say that the Administration cannot end DACA, and in fact the plantiffs in this case and the ruling itself make perfectly clear that it can. All this ruling said is that in order to do so, there is a process that needs to be followed, and it wasn't in this case. Given the craziness and dysfunction that has happened in the Trump Administration, this is not surprising.

That being said, I would also take a close look at the dissent that was written by Clarence Thomas. That dissent was basically that because DACA was created illegally in the first place, the administration legally had the responsibility to shut it down. That being said, I also believed that if the argument before the court was over the legality of DACA itself, the ruling would have been 5-4 with Kavanaugh joining the liberals. I say this because Kavanaugh wrote a separate dissent claiming that while DACA was not illegal, the administration had the right to terminate it.

Trump's tweet going after the court is a clear sign to the base who really have made the courts their priority. I also suspect that this issue will motivate Trump supporters who voted for Trump to secure the borders. Unlike the LGBT ruling earlier in the week, I don't think this issue is going away anytime soon. I also think congress and the White House were much more likely to come to a deal on comprehensive immigration reform if the ruling went for the administration. I suspect now that there will be no action on this at all until after the election, but if Trump is reelected, this issue will reignite come springtime.
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:05 pm

apodino wrote:
Trump's tweet going after the court is a clear sign to the base who really have made the courts their priority. I also suspect that this issue will motivate Trump supporters who voted for Trump to secure the borders. Unlike the LGBT ruling earlier in the week, I don't think this issue is going away anytime soon. I also think congress and the White House were much more likely to come to a deal on comprehensive immigration reform if the ruling went for the administration. I suspect now that there will be no action on this at all until after the election, but if Trump is reelected, this issue will reignite come springtime.


The Democrats will be able to pound Trump on the DACA and Dream act though.

https://missoulacurrent.com/government/ ... -dreamers/

xty-eight percent of Republican respondents, for example, said they support Dreamers, with 71% of conservatives and 64% of people who approve of the job Trump is doing also coming out against deporting those who arrived illegally as children.

Only 12% of those polled thought Dreamers should be deported, and 10% did not know or did not have an opinion on the matter.

Perhaps most tellingly, even 69% of people who voted for Trump in 2016 after a campaign replete with hardline anti-immigrant rhetoric, including a specific promise to deport Dreamers, came out in support of not deporting them, according to Wednesday’s poll.

The poll’s results portend that Trump will likely have to strike a delicate balance between paying back the support of immigration hawks in love with his ideas to deport millions of migrants and build a wall along the U.S. border with Mexico and courting Latino voters he is hoping to woo in order to shore up his chances at re-election on Nov. 3.
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:13 pm

casinterest wrote:
The Democrats will be able to pound Trump on the DACA and Dream act though.

https://missoulacurrent.com/government/ ... -dreamers/
xty-eight percent of Republican respondents, for example, said they support Dreamers, with 71% of conservatives and 64% of people who approve of the job Trump is doing also coming out against deporting those who arrived illegally as children.

Only 12% of those polled thought Dreamers should be deported, and 10% did not know or did not have an opinion on the matter.

Perhaps most tellingly, even 69% of people who voted for Trump in 2016 after a campaign replete with hardline anti-immigrant rhetoric, including a specific promise to deport Dreamers, came out in support of not deporting them, according to Wednesday’s poll.

The poll’s results portend that Trump will likely have to strike a delicate balance between paying back the support of immigration hawks in love with his ideas to deport millions of migrants and build a wall along the U.S. border with Mexico and courting Latino voters he is hoping to woo in order to shore up his chances at re-election on Nov. 3.

Didn't the Democrats though push an absolutist approach in their negotiation WRT ending DACA and did that because they knew just shutting down as Trump did in the end, was a losing proposition? I'm not giving anything to Trump here on this but I think the Dems could have been a bit better but then I also forget what bluster and Tweets Trump was throwing around at the time. It is fairly easy to push Trump into doing something dumb, he is a uniquely and easily goadable person/president.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:14 pm

Lest we forget, of the millions (2.5) workers in food and meat plants about half were born outside of the US, I suspect most of the 'illegals' are from Central America. These workers are essential for the feeding of Americans. They have suffered disproportionately from the virus. Rather than trying (and often succeeding) to take away their rights, benefits, and medical care we should be appreciating them by keeping them safe, fairly paid, and yes, educating their children.
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trpmb6
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:43 pm

Interesting that Kavanaugh could be the savior for DACA when this comes around again.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:44 pm

This is turning into the Week from Hell for conservatives ;)
 
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trpmb6
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:46 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
This is turning into the Week from Hell for conservatives ;)


Not really? Been a fairly nice week for me.
 
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stl07
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:49 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Lest we forget, of the millions (2.5) workers in food and meat plants about half were born outside of the US, I suspect most of the 'illegals' are from Central America. These workers are essential for the feeding of Americans. They have suffered disproportionately from the virus. Rather than trying (and often succeeding) to take away their rights, benefits, and medical care we should be appreciating them by keeping them safe, fairly paid, and yes, educating their children.

Which is why we need to pass the bipartisan guest worker program but getting things done that make sense is beyond the legislative branch
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:03 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
This is turning into the Week from Hell for conservatives ;)


Not really? Been a fairly nice week for me.

:D

And of course that's the fun and problem with "bifurcation". With dividing people into two camps, and/or seeing yourself as only one or the other. We fall on a spectrum, everyone. (And I know you completely understand this.)

Too much nowadays we are forced and expected to be just one thing or the other and we can never be allowed out of our forced identity. For some stupid reason. I am Republican but also VERY divergent on a lot of the issues that other Republican's demand one must toe the line on.

I am glad your week is going well so far! :bigthumbsup:

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Dieuwer
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:08 pm

Tugger wrote:
And of course that's the fun and problem with "bifurcation". With dividing people into two camps, and/or seeing yourself as only one or the other. We fall on a spectrum, everyone. (And I know you completely understand this.)

Too much nowadays we are forced and expected to be just one thing or the other and we can never be allowed out of our forced identity. For some stupid reason. I am Republican but also VERY divergent on a lot of the issues that other Republican's demand one must toe the line on.


I often think that there should be room for more parties if we could get rid of the current voting system. Perhaps very left-wing, a center-left, a center-right and a very right-wing party.
 
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:48 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And of course that's the fun and problem with "bifurcation". With dividing people into two camps, and/or seeing yourself as only one or the other. We fall on a spectrum, everyone. (And I know you completely understand this.)

Too much nowadays we are forced and expected to be just one thing or the other and we can never be allowed out of our forced identity. For some stupid reason. I am Republican but also VERY divergent on a lot of the issues that other Republican's demand one must toe the line on.


I often think that there should be room for more parties if we could get rid of the current voting system. Perhaps very left-wing, a center-left, a center-right and a very right-wing party.


Most of the rest of the World would point out that you already have one very right wing party and one centre-right party. Where are you going to get the others from?
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einsteinboricua
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:42 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I often think that there should be room for more parties if we could get rid of the current voting system. Perhaps very left-wing, a center-left, a center-right and a very right-wing party.

The EC must go and the House of Representatives reformed, by either:
1. Having all states elect their representatives at large instead of by district, and awarding the seats proportional to the vote total.
2. Doing away with state boundaries and make it a national HoR, with districts spanning state lines if needed. MT has twice the population of WY, yet they're both represented by a single member each. States are already represented equally at the Senate; the House should be the people nationwide. This could be helpful for border towns that don't vote with their state because either a big city dominates or they're dominated by the rest of the state (examples such as Cincinatti in KY or Quincy in IL).
3. Doubling the seats in the HoR so that half continues to be elected by districts as it is done now, and the other half is proportional to the vote total at the national level, with seats awarded at a national level, irrespective of where that member hails from. This would end up in a lower House truly representative of the total vote (so if Republicans gerrymander an advantage of over 218 seats but obtain only 47% of the popular vote nationwide, the proportion of the party will be 47% of the seats occupied, effectively a minority). This also allows 3rd parties to enter the House as national at large members and negates the effects of gerrymandering. That second half of seats effectively places a cap on total members such that no party is significantly over/underrepresented in the vote total vs seats occupied. If a party wants to have control of the House they either must win a majority of votes outright (districts won't be enough) or build a coalition with another party (and even then, the difference factions within a party are enough to ensure that there is dialogue between different parts).
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trpmb6
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:46 am

Tugger wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
This is turning into the Week from Hell for conservatives ;)


Not really? Been a fairly nice week for me.

:D

And of course that's the fun and problem with "bifurcation". With dividing people into two camps, and/or seeing yourself as only one or the other. We fall on a spectrum, everyone. (And I know you completely understand this.)

Too much nowadays we are forced and expected to be just one thing or the other and we can never be allowed out of our forced identity. For some stupid reason. I am Republican but also VERY divergent on a lot of the issues that other Republican's demand one must toe the line on.

I am glad your week is going well so far! :bigthumbsup:

Tugg


Yup, it is entirely possible to identify with a certain political leaning but not share all of the ideologies. Many here know I was once called a Russian asset or bot. Which is honestly the most absurd thing. (They have since recanted)

The thing this, people like to place others in nice defined boxes, culturally, politically and socially. It helps them from a point of order stand point. They don't like it when things cross lines. People don't like associating with those who differ from them racially, socially, politically and culturally.

I don't suspect it is any persons fault for that, its likely a learned attribute from their upbringing.

Anyways. One can be conservative and believe in equal rights for all.

Do I think the scotus got this ruling wrong? Not really, they were ruling on procedure as i noted above. Clarence Thomas laid out what my view is kn the matter perfectly. His voice is stronger than mine.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:02 am

The Chief Justice is turning out to be the swing vote more and more. He has had my respect since he voted to save the ACA and the LGBT ruling this week and now this vote. A thinking man, instead of a right wing robot. Gorsuch is not doing too bad either.
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tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:19 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
The Chief Justice is turning out to be the swing vote more and more.


Isn't there some statistical evidence that chief justices sort of always fill the role of swing vote?

. Gorsuch is not doing too bad either.


Yup, consistency deserves respect, even if content doesn't necessarily

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Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:26 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
3. Doubling the seats in the HoR so that half continues to be elected by districts as it is done now, and the other half is proportional to the vote total at the national level, with seats awarded at a national level, irrespective of where that member hails from. This would end up in a lower House truly representative of the total vote (so if Republicans gerrymander an advantage of over 218 seats but obtain only 47% of the popular vote nationwide, the proportion of the party will be 47% of the seats occupied, effectively a minority). This also allows 3rd parties to enter the House as national at large members and negates the effects of gerrymandering. That second half of seats effectively places a cap on total members such that no party is significantly over/underrepresented in the vote total vs seats occupied. If a party wants to have control of the House they either must win a majority of votes outright (districts won't be enough) or build a coalition with another party (and even then, the difference factions within a party are enough to ensure that there is dialogue between different parts).


It also allows parties to "appoint" house seats via lists. If a party gets enough votes for 100 seats, spots 1 through 100 of the, predetermined and pre-election publically known, list get their seat.... that allows parties to get experts in, even if they lack charisma to win a district.
And, you could just copy & paste our system :D

Also, you have to consider what to do with Überhangmandaten
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhang_seat

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:26 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
The Chief Justice is turning out to be the swing vote more and more. He has had my respect since he voted to save the ACA and the LGBT ruling this week and now this vote. A thinking man, instead of a right wing robot. Gorsuch is not doing too bad either.

Even before Kennedy retired, I knew CJ Roberts would be the new Kennedy. The only problem is that he's further to the right of Kennedy in certain aspects which makes him a slightly more reliable conservative vote than Kennedy. There was no way that Alito and Thomas would be swing votes since they're pretty much on the side of Scalia. Gorsuch ended up being the big surprise though. And Kavanaugh? Well, this is his first term so he's proving to be to the right of Roberts, though the question is whether he's at the same level as Alito and Thomas.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Rules DACA Was Ended Improperly

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:25 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Gorsuch ended up being the big surprise though. And Kavanaugh? Well, this is his first term so he's proving to be to the right of Roberts, though the question is whether he's at the same level as Alito and Thomas.


It would appear so
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... eme-court/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... one-chart/

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6

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Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos