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WarRI1
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Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:24 am

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/0 ... /24528308/

It is about time these types of ads were removed from Facebook and the man who they support learned he is not above the rules like his supporters think he is.
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jetwet1
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:02 am

WarRI1 wrote:
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/06/18/facebook-removes-trump-ads-for-violating-organized-hate-policy/24528308/

It is about time these types of ads were removed from Facebook and the man who they support learned he is not above the rules like his supporters think he is.


Honestly, I think you are giving Trump to much credit, I very much doubt he knew about the ad until he found out Facebook had pulled it. To be that involved you would have to be seriously motivated, and I just don't see it in Trump.

The rest I agree with, what will be interesting is how the social media companies start reacting to him if it becomes clear he is in trouble.

The amazing part to his whole term isn't the complete lack of direction, but more how he has set out to make enemies, sure you can get away with that when you're President, but once you're out of office there will be a whole group of people looking to make his and his companies life hell.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:07 am

Ironically, this just gives the ad more exposure than it ever would have gotten circulating among the angry Karens of Facebook...
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WarRI1
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:08 am

jetwet1 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/06/18/facebook-removes-trump-ads-for-violating-organized-hate-policy/24528308/

It is about time these types of ads were removed from Facebook and the man who they support learned he is not above the rules like his supporters think he is.


Honestly, I think you are giving Trump to much credit, I very much doubt he knew about the ad until he found out Facebook had pulled it. To be that involved you would have to be seriously motivated, and I just don't see it in Trump.

The rest I agree with, what will be interesting is how the social media companies start reacting to him if it becomes clear he is in trouble.

The amazing part to his whole term isn't the complete lack of direction, but more how he has set out to make enemies, sure you can get away with that when you're President, but once you're out of office there will be a whole group of people looking to make his and his companies life hell.



Possibly so, and if I did it was by accident. This man who I will not give the courtesy of Capitalizing his name or calling him by any title deserves not one iota of credit. He is a bum.
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WarRI1
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:16 am

Francoflier wrote:
Ironically, this just gives the ad more exposure than it ever would have gotten circulating among the angry Karens of Facebook...



That is possible, yet someone has to take his minions to task for spending tons of money and spreading hate far and wide. I do not use Facebook, but I have heard some of it, the outright hate from my wife who does go on. She finally had to tell a few acquaintances to not send her that hatred filled Bullshit while defending the Buffoon. My wife is not political at all, yet they send it around the circle spewing this hatred.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:22 am

Francoflier wrote:
Ironically, this just gives the ad more exposure than it ever would have gotten circulating among the angry Karens of Facebook...


that one, yes. All that is going to be deleted in the future won´t.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:49 am

Welcome to censorship.
I hope you all like it, because there will be much more of it in the future, just like in the good old USSR.

Corporations should not control freedom of speech, which they by default now do, via their control of social media.

Disgusting and dangerous.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
Kent350787
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:16 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
Welcome to censorship.
I hope you all like it, because there will be much more of it in the future, just like in the good old USSR.

Corporations should not control freedom of speech, which they by default now do, via their control of social media.

Disgusting and dangerous.


It's interesting that your concern is with censorship when your President's campaign is using actual Nazi symbolism in an attempt to further demonise its left-most opponents. Opponents whose loose structure and name are about opposing Fascists. Unfortunately they failed in the 1930s.

I think I'm at the stage that I'd be barely surprised if the Trump campaign released media attacking this valid action by FB that (of course accidentally) included a yellow star.

Pro-tip - if you don't want Antifa opposing you, don't coopt fascist images or actions.
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scbriml
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:41 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
Welcome to censorship.
I hope you all like it, because there will be much more of it in the future, just like in the good old USSR.

Corporations should not control freedom of speech, which they by default now do, via their control of social media.

Disgusting and dangerous.


They're private companies, as such they can apply their own rules to which their customers agree when they join. Just like this site.

If you don't like it, you are of course free to setup your own social media platform where your customers can spew all the hate speech they like.
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Aaron747
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:43 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
Welcome to censorship.
I hope you all like it, because there will be much more of it in the future, just like in the good old USSR.

Corporations should not control freedom of speech, which they by default now do, via their control of social media.

Disgusting and dangerous.


There is no guarantee to free speech on their platforms - where do you even get such an idea? This is corporate power, brought to you by good ‘ol American capitalism. Nothing at all to do with the former Soviet system, and suggesting any connection is a completely illogical conflation.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:44 am

Kent350787 wrote:
It's interesting that your concern is with censorship when your President's campaign is using actual Nazi symbolism in an attempt to further demonise its left-most opponents. Opponents whose loose structure and name are about opposing Fascists. Unfortunately they failed in the 1930s.

I think I'm at the stage that I'd be barely surprised if the Trump campaign released media attacking this valid action by FB that (of course accidentally) included a yellow star.

Pro-tip - if you don't want Antifa opposing you, don't coopt fascist images or actions.


I don't care if it is left or right wing "hate speech".
There's a fundamental problem in letting greedy coorporations (and Facebook is a very greedy corporation) who are controlling the modern way of speech (communication), using arbitrary subjective standards for what is "hate". It should not happen. There's a reason hate speech laws are deemed unconstitutional in the US, because they infringe with free speech.

And yeah, the threat of violence from Antifa just highlight my point, that free speech (within the boundries of the law) is a sacred thing.
Organisations and corporations working against that, are enemies of democracy.
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:52 am

scbriml wrote:
They're private companies, as such they can apply their own rules to which their customers agree when they join. Just like this site.

If you don't like it, you are of course free to setup your own social media platform where your customers can spew all the hate speech they like.


This is a fairly new problem, that corporations now are in control of the way we communicate, and what we can say, and who can say it.
When you have a monopolistic power in such an area, it should be regulated by the state.
Facebook does not serve any country or democratic tradition. They serve themselves and their business.
It's big problem when you posses such powers in a society.
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tommy1808
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:57 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
Welcome to censorship.


It is not censorship, it has nothing to do whatsoever with freedom of speech either.

However... it has to do with property rights, that you are hell bent to have violated as it seems.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:59 am

Aaron747 wrote:
There is no guarantee to free speech on their platforms - where do you even get such an idea? This is corporate power, brought to you by good ‘ol American capitalism. Nothing at all to do with the former Soviet system, and suggesting any connection is a completely illogical conflation.


As mentioned, when a corporation have a monopolistic power over free speech, it should no longer be up to them to choose what can be said, and who can say it.
Free speech should always be regulated by law.

The analogy to the USSR was with regard to censorship.
In the USSR the party decided what could be said. In nazi Germany it was the same.
Now we are heading into a situation where corporations control free speech.
Anyone with a sense of how important free speech is in a democracy should be appaled by that.
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Aaron747
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:00 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
They're private companies, as such they can apply their own rules to which their customers agree when they join. Just like this site.

If you don't like it, you are of course free to setup your own social media platform where your customers can spew all the hate speech they like.


This is a fairly new problem, that corporations now are in control of the way we communicate, and what we can say, and who can say it.
When you have a monopolistic power in such an area, it should be regulated by the state.
Facebook does not serve any country or democratic tradition. They serve themselves and their business.
It's big problem when you posses such powers in a society.


This is an absurd argument legally. Should we also claim Hilton took control of how the world spends the night, or Coca-Cola how we drink? They are not ‘in control’ - if social media were the *only* communication medium available, your point would be logical. It is not, obviously, and there are multiple platforms to choose from if you choose to partake at all.

Free speech protections exist to prevent the government from controlling it, not private entities, no matter their size. Try again.
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:11 am

Aaron747 wrote:
This is an absurd argument legally. Should we also claim Hilton took control of how the world spends the night, or Coca-Cola how we drink? They are not ‘in control’ - if social media were the *only* communication medium available, your point would be logical. It is not, obviously, and there are multiple platforms to choose from if you choose to partake at all.

Free speech protections exist to prevent the government from controlling it, not private entities, no matter their size. Try again.


You are aware there are anti trust laws?
They are in place to protect the customer from monopolistic exploitation.
The infringement of free speech on social media is a new thing that could not have been foreseen 100 years ago.
I think protection of free speech is more important than protection of competition.
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Olddog
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:19 am

Your free speech mantra as zero weight as the US is the only country in the world that refuse to consider responsibilities that come with that speech.
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casinterest
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:40 am

Trump is going to be mad when he wakes up.

Twitter just tagged his false Chryon Tweet for manipulated Media.

https://thehill.com/policy/technology/5 ... ated-media
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:36 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This is an absurd argument legally. Should we also claim Hilton took control of how the world spends the night, or Coca-Cola how we drink? They are not ‘in control’ - if social media were the *only* communication medium available, your point would be logical. It is not, obviously, and there are multiple platforms to choose from if you choose to partake at all.

Free speech protections exist to prevent the government from controlling it, not private entities, no matter their size. Try again.


You are aware there are anti trust laws?
They are in place to protect the customer from monopolistic exploitation.


There is no exploitation in this case in any way, shape or form.

The infringement of free speech on social media is a new thing that could not have been foreseen 100 years ago.
I think protection of free speech is more important than protection of competition.


Free speech doesnt play any roll in this whatsoever.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:41 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This is an absurd argument legally. Should we also claim Hilton took control of how the world spends the night, or Coca-Cola how we drink? They are not ‘in control’ - if social media were the *only* communication medium available, your point would be logical. It is not, obviously, and there are multiple platforms to choose from if you choose to partake at all.

Free speech protections exist to prevent the government from controlling it, not private entities, no matter their size. Try again.


You are aware there are anti trust laws?
They are in place to protect the customer from monopolistic exploitation.
The infringement of free speech on social media is a new thing that could not have been foreseen 100 years ago.
I think protection of free speech is more important than protection of competition.


Social media ‘customers’ are not transactional - that’s why they are ‘users’ who sign up. They are not paying for any services whatsoever. Your argument holds no water.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tommy1808
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:46 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This is an absurd argument legally. Should we also claim Hilton took control of how the world spends the night, or Coca-Cola how we drink? They are not ‘in control’ - if social media were the *only* communication medium available, your point would be logical. It is not, obviously, and there are multiple platforms to choose from if you choose to partake at all.

Free speech protections exist to prevent the government from controlling it, not private entities, no matter their size. Try again.


You are aware there are anti trust laws?
They are in place to protect the customer from monopolistic exploitation.
The infringement of free speech on social media is a new thing that could not have been foreseen 100 years ago.
I think protection of free speech is more important than protection of competition.


Social media ‘customers’ are not transactional - that’s why they are ‘users’ who sign up. They are not paying for any services whatsoever. Your argument holds no water.


They are actually the product...

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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scbriml
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:14 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
As mentioned, when a corporation have a monopolistic power over free speech, it should no longer be up to them to choose what can be said, and who can say it.


Facebook is certainly not a monopoly, they have plenty of competition from other social media platforms. Facebook is also not a platform for free speech and has never presented itself as such. Try posting a pornographic image on Facebook and see how long it takes for it to be deleted (ditto all the other social media platforms).

Your much vaunted free speech has never really been free. All media is owned by someone who has their own agenda and they are regulated by government and law. The only way you really have free speech is to stand on a soapbox in Central Park and deliver whatever message you want. But of course, you'll only reach six people and their dogs.

Dahlgardo wrote:
Free speech should always be regulated by law.


Free and regulated? That sounds like an oxymoron!
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scbriml
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:01 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
You are aware there are anti trust laws?
They are in place to protect the customer from monopolistic exploitation.
The infringement of free speech on social media is a new thing that could not have been foreseen 100 years ago.
I think protection of free speech is more important than protection of competition.


Facebook is not a monopoly. Nor is any media company for that matter.

Free speech is no less protected because Facebook took down an advert. You haven't really explained why you think Facebook, or any other media company, has to provide a free platform for you to say whatever the hell you like.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:03 pm

People should simply start their own business if they don't like any of the current options available.
How about "JezusBook.com" or "PreacherChat.com"?
 
kalvado
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:09 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
They're private companies, as such they can apply their own rules to which their customers agree when they join. Just like this site.

If you don't like it, you are of course free to setup your own social media platform where your customers can spew all the hate speech they like.


This is a fairly new problem, that corporations now are in control of the way we communicate, and what we can say, and who can say it.
When you have a monopolistic power in such an area, it should be regulated by the state.
Facebook does not serve any country or democratic tradition. They serve themselves and their business.
It's big problem when you posses such powers in a society.

Would this really be that different from private owned newspapers, magazines, radio and TV stations?
 
jetwet1
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:12 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
There is no guarantee to free speech on their platforms - where do you even get such an idea? This is corporate power, brought to you by good ‘ol American capitalism. Nothing at all to do with the former Soviet system, and suggesting any connection is a completely illogical conflation.


As mentioned, when a corporation have a monopolistic power over free speech, it should no longer be up to them to choose what can be said, and who can say it.
Free speech should always be regulated by law.

The analogy to the USSR was with regard to censorship.
In the USSR the party decided what could be said. In nazi Germany it was the same.
Now we are heading into a situation where corporations control free speech.
Anyone with a sense of how important free speech is in a democracy should be appaled by that.


Well one of the other platforms in the monopolistic world (can't really call it a monopoly when there are multiple platforms owned by different companies) decided to step up and point out the Twitter in chief had posted BS again, that will make him happy.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:16 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
There is no guarantee to free speech on their platforms - where do you even get such an idea? This is corporate power, brought to you by good ‘ol American capitalism. Nothing at all to do with the former Soviet system, and suggesting any connection is a completely illogical conflation.


As mentioned, when a corporation have a monopolistic power over free speech, it should no longer be up to them to choose what can be said, and who can say it.
Free speech should always be regulated by law.t.


Free specch isn't = being allowed to say anything against anyone in any situation. Free speech is being allowed to be negative against government and public authorities and etc.
Free speech is someone being able to not agree with the latest rulings from SCOTUS about LGBT worker rights. Free speech

Free speech is not using a private platform to spread hate speech. If you want to use/advert on FB/Twitter/instagram/youtube/wordpress or any other privater media
platform you are obliged to follow/agree to their tos, If you don't then either don't use it or if you use it anyway and break their tos don't get upset if they ban you.
It is the same as if you would stand up in a restaurant and start being verbally hateful/abusive, it is not free speech
and if it is a private establishment they are in their full right to have you removed/evicted.

Trump is the POTUS and as such criticism of him is considered free speech (it comes with the job), however he himself seems to consider himself "off limits"
for any form of criticism while at the same time spewing allot of hate/criticism against others via twitter.
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:46 pm

kalvado wrote:
Would this really be that different from private owned newspapers, magazines, radio and TV stations?


This article from American Bar Association expresses my point much better than I can (english is not my native language).
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-ongoing-challenge-to-define-free-speech/in-the-age-of-socia-media-first-amendment/

fair exerpt
Already, some state high courts interpret free expression provisions in state constitutions to provide protection to individuals involving private actors. For example, a few states apply their free expression protections at privately owned shopping malls. The New Jersey Supreme Court has applied the free expression provision of its state constitution to allow individuals to challenge restrictive bylaw provisions of private homeowner associations. The state high court wrote: “In New Jersey, an individual’s affirmative right to speak freely is protected not only from abridgement by government, but also from unreasonably restrictive and oppressive conduct by private entities in certain situations.” (Mazdabrook Commons Homeowners Association v. Khan, 210 N.J. 482, 493 (2012).)

The U.S. Supreme Court should follow these examples from state supreme courts to relax the state action doctrine. The Court should interpret the First Amendment to limit the “unreasonably restrictive and oppressive conduct” by certain powerful, private entities—such as social media entities—that flagrantly censor freedom of expression.


scbriml wrote:
Free and regulated? That sounds like an oxymoron!


I'm surprised you are under the impression free speech is not regulated by law. :confused: :confused:
Slander, threats and incitement to violence etc. has never been permitted. But now you know.

Hate speech laws are unconstitutional in the US, and for a good reason.
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Aaron747
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:52 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Would this really be that different from private owned newspapers, magazines, radio and TV stations?


This article from American Bar Association expresses my point much better than I can (english is not my native language).
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-ongoing-challenge-to-define-free-speech/in-the-age-of-socia-media-first-amendment/

fair exerpt
Already, some state high courts interpret free expression provisions in state constitutions to provide protection to individuals involving private actors. For example, a few states apply their free expression protections at privately owned shopping malls. The New Jersey Supreme Court has applied the free expression provision of its state constitution to allow individuals to challenge restrictive bylaw provisions of private homeowner associations. The state high court wrote: “In New Jersey, an individual’s affirmative right to speak freely is protected not only from abridgement by government, but also from unreasonably restrictive and oppressive conduct by private entities in certain situations.” (Mazdabrook Commons Homeowners Association v. Khan, 210 N.J. 482, 493 (2012).)

The U.S. Supreme Court should follow these examples from state supreme courts to relax the state action doctrine. The Court should interpret the First Amendment to limit the “unreasonably restrictive and oppressive conduct” by certain powerful, private entities—such as social media entities—that flagrantly censor freedom of expression.


scbriml wrote:
Free and regulated? That sounds like an oxymoron!


I'm surprised you are under the impression free speech is not regulated by law. :confused: :confused:
Slander, threats and incitement to violence etc. has never been permitted. But now you know.

Hate speech laws are unconstitutional in the US, and for a good reason.


Why are you changing what you said? Earlier in the thread you claimed ‘monopolistic exploitation’ of customers required antitrust protection. But then it was pointed out that a. Social media users are not ‘customers’ and b. The companies you are complaining about do not have monopolies and do not ‘control’ speech in a proper free speech context.

What is your response? I would also note the ABA piece is flawed because the writer argues there is a problem in the ‘marketplace of ideas’ - but that is flawed because SM users can opt out whenever they want, and anyone who can program and run hardware can produce and market their own SM network if they wish. The intent of the marketplace ideal in the Constitution is the government cannot declare some type of speech undesirable and simply start throwing people in prison for it. Social media has no discernible power to reduce your tangible freedom simply for saying things they don’t like.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
kalvado
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:58 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
This is a fairly new problem, that corporations now are in control of the way we communicate, and what we can say, and who can say it.


Would this really be that different from private owned newspapers, magazines, radio and TV stations?


This article from American Bar Association expresses my point much better than I can (english is not my native language).

I am specifically commenting about things being "new". Advertising platforms - such as newspapers - always had discretion over ads content. So they did about "letters to the editor" etc.
In case of FB, one might further differentiate between ads and private posts.
So nothing is really that new, I suspect.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:00 pm

If "hate speech" was super profitable, I am sure Facebook would try to get as much as possible of it.
 
kalvado
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:01 pm

Just to throw an oddball into discussion:
Would everyone argue the same way if, for example, Bernie's content on universal healthcare would be removed for... For financial irresponsibility which is borderline to domestic terrorism?
It is not about how good that reason is, its about if you would be OK with same treatment of the other side?
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:13 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Why are you changing what you said? Earlier in the thread you claimed ‘monopolistic exploitation’ of customers required antitrust protection. But then it was pointed out that a. Social media users are not ‘customers’ and b. The companies you are complaining about do not have monopolies and do not ‘control’ speech in a proper free speech context.


You can call it monopolistic, very dominant or whatever.
It doesn't change the fact, that these corporations have a huge influence on how we all communicate and interact.
By enforcing their own political agendas they more or less control the public discourse to a degree where they defacto prevents free speech in our societies.
I see that as a huge democratic problem.

Aaron747 wrote:
What is your response? I would also note the ABA piece is flawed because the writer argues there is a problem in the ‘marketplace of ideas’ - but that is flawed because SM users can opt out whenever they want, and anyone who can program and run hardware can produce and market their own SM network if they wish. The intent of the marketplace ideal in the Constitution is the government cannot declare some type of speech undesirable and simply start throwing people in prison for it. Social media has no discernible power to reduce your tangible freedom simply for saying things they don’t like.


You are entitled to that opinion.
There's a reason Facebook and Twitter are extremely valuable corporations.
Their position is so dominant when it comes to our modern way of communication, that you just cannot challenge them.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13134
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:16 pm

kalvado wrote:
Just to throw an oddball into discussion:
Would everyone argue the same way if, for example, Bernie's content on universal healthcare would be removed for... For financial irresponsibility which is borderline to domestic terrorism?
It is not about how good that reason is, its about if you would be OK with same treatment of the other side?


If the TOS prohibits that, sure. It would also not impede his speech, as he can just run his own website.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13134
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:18 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Their position is so dominant when it comes to our modern way of communication, that you just cannot challenge them.


Gosh, dang... and here I am, not using either one for any communication. And i actually do know few people that do.

So much for domination..

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19097
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:28 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
I'm surprised you are under the impression free speech is not regulated by law. :confused: :confused:
Slander, threats and incitement to violence etc. has never been permitted. But now you know.

Hate speech laws are unconstitutional in the US, and for a good reason.


I'm certainly under no such impression. However, you called for free speech to be regulated. Regulated speech, by definition isn't free, is it?

I'm really confused by your position here. You're complaining about free speech being "restricted", yet you acknowledge that speech is regulated and limited by laws. At the same time you say it's a good thing that legislating against hate speech is unconstitutional - on what basis is it unconstitutional? How isn't hate speech covered by existing laws against threats and incitement to violence?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Dahlgardo
Posts: 456
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:29 pm

kalvado wrote:
I am specifically commenting about things being "new". Advertising platforms - such as newspapers - always had discretion over ads content. So they did about "letters to the editor" etc.
In case of FB, one might further differentiate between ads and private posts.
So nothing is really that new, I suspect.


I believe social media has become more of an important (or even critical) communication infrastructure.
They filled a void that new technogy created. It's much different that classical media outlets.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
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Dahlgardo
Posts: 456
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
I'm really confused by your position here. You're complaining about free speech being "restricted", yet you acknowledge that speech is regulated and limited by laws. At the same time you say it's a good thing that legislating against hate speech is unconstitutional - on what basis is it unconstitutional? How isn't hate speech covered by existing laws against threats and incitement to violence?


The limits to free speech are clearly written in existing legislation and upheld by the courts.

What I worry about is corporations enforcing their political agendas by use of their dominant positions.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 12295
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:38 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Why are you changing what you said? Earlier in the thread you claimed ‘monopolistic exploitation’ of customers required antitrust protection. But then it was pointed out that a. Social media users are not ‘customers’ and b. The companies you are complaining about do not have monopolies and do not ‘control’ speech in a proper free speech context.


You can call it monopolistic, very dominant or whatever.
It doesn't change the fact, that these corporations have a huge influence on how we all communicate and interact.
By enforcing their own political agendas they more or less control the public discourse to a degree where they defacto prevents free speech in our societies.
I see that as a huge democratic problem.

Aaron747 wrote:
What is your response? I would also note the ABA piece is flawed because the writer argues there is a problem in the ‘marketplace of ideas’ - but that is flawed because SM users can opt out whenever they want, and anyone who can program and run hardware can produce and market their own SM network if they wish. The intent of the marketplace ideal in the Constitution is the government cannot declare some type of speech undesirable and simply start throwing people in prison for it. Social media has no discernible power to reduce your tangible freedom simply for saying things they don’t like.


You are entitled to that opinion.
There's a reason Facebook and Twitter are extremely valuable corporations.
Their position is so dominant when it comes to our modern way of communication, that you just cannot challenge them.


You still have not made a valid argument as to how they ‘control’ discourse. Do they have an influence? Sure, but so do other forms of media. They are not the only game in town for communication - your argument holds water only if they are an actual
monopoly on communication.

As to their value, that is because of the massive amounts of data they can mine and provide to customers and partners. Users are just part of that product.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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scbriml
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:54 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
It doesn't change the fact, that these corporations have a huge influence on how we all communicate and interact.
By enforcing their own political agendas they more or less control the public discourse to a degree where they defacto prevents free speech in our societies.
I see that as a huge democratic problem.


How is this any different to when newspapers were the only media available? The newspaper owners then were in exactly the same position the social media owners are today. It's no more a "huge democratic problem" now than it was then. Somehow we all managed to survive.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15199
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:14 pm

I don't have a Facebook account as 1) I am not that interesting of a person, 2) I want to be able to express political and social opinions with some privacy, 3) I don't want to hear of other peoples politics and social ideas I find offensive, and 4) I want one less place where my personal data and believes are used by corporate marketing.

To me Facebook has a moral, legal and business necessity to be able to keep off their site certain offensive postings including especially porn and suggestions of violence as to certain persons or groups, they have some monitors to remove such posts. I am quite sure in some countries they do business in like France and Germany they cannot allow per their TOS any postings with Nazi or pro-Nazi content, in China anything that is deemed offensive by the government although that has it own issues of immoral censorship.

I have long believed that Facebook should end its 'free' model and have a paid subscription model, with fees varying on numbers and size of posts, to verify users to trace TOS violators, keep out jerks, and to reduce the ads and info mining that makes too few rich at my expense. A Subscription model would also give them more leverage to keep out offensive material and pay for more monitoring. I would also suggest a more accessible 'flag' key on posts on Facebook to request review and possible removal of offensive posts.
 
Dieuwer
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Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Large communication business/platforms like Facebook do not have God-given power. Their power comes from their users. If everybody would simply cancel their Facebook account and walk away, Facebook would be nothing.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3915
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:27 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
People should simply start their own business if they don't like any of the current options available.
How about "JezusBook.com" or "PreacherChat.com"?

Farcebook.com?
Attamottamotta!
 
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seb146
Posts: 22515
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:30 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Welcome to censorship.
I hope you all like it, because there will be much more of it in the future, just like in the good old USSR.

Corporations should not control freedom of speech, which they by default now do, via their control of social media.

Disgusting and dangerous.


The same people whining about censorship now were elated when MLS temporarily banned so-called "antifa" flags last year.....

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2019/8/ ... est-antifa
https://www.opb.org/news/article/iron-f ... d-seattle/

Neo Nazis and racists still have other platforms. They still hand out their racist recruiting flyers and still have their "underground" web sites. But, yeah, let's all get pearl clutchy because one web site banned a few ads........
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:20 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
The limits to free speech are clearly written in existing legislation and upheld by the courts.


Which doesn't explain how a new law against hate speech is unconstitutional. "Free speech" has limits and those limits are defined in law. How is hate speech different to any of the existing limits that makes it unconstitutional to outlaw it? Lastly, why do you think it's a good thing that hate speech shouldn't be outlawed?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2817
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:05 am

scbriml wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
The limits to free speech are clearly written in existing legislation and upheld by the courts.


Which doesn't explain how a new law against hate speech is unconstitutional. "Free speech" has limits and those limits are defined in law. How is hate speech different to any of the existing limits that makes it unconstitutional to outlaw it? Lastly, why do you think it's a good thing that hate speech shouldn't be outlawed?

Two arguments here:
First, idea of free speech protection is quite strong in US. There is a supreme court decision that anything is OK as long as there is no call for immediate violence. For example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
I cannot find the source right now, but I believe there was a supreme court decision which explisitly allowed reception of German radio broadcasting duriing WWII. So restrictions are pretty loose.
Second - it seems that hate is an essencial part of political culture. If you think about it, hate to president from opposite party skyrocketed from Bush II to Obama to Trump - and I hate to think what would opponents say about whoever the next president would be (pun intended).
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:35 am

Another argument for allowing hate speech is simply that a "Barking Dog Doesn't Bite".
Allowing people to rant and relieve their anger should be the preferred choice over having people simmer their hatred underground and commit physical violence.
Also, by banning "hate speech" you may enter a slippery slope. What you think is acceptable speech today might be called "hate speech" tomorrow (by the government). Do you really want to end up in a China-style mind control situation where every speech that is "unwanted" by the state is labeled as "subversive" or "hate speech"?
 
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casinterest
Posts: 11514
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:40 am

The parents of the toddler have forced facebook and twitter to remove it.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/18/business ... index.html

Trump and his campaign are exploiting children for their own humor. Anyone freaked yet
Trump and his campaign have coopted Nazi messaging. Anyone freaked yet?

We are on a slippery path, and the so called Christians are beating the path to Hell.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18162
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:11 am

Trump supporters can never find the evYl antifa boogeyman but they sure find a lot of Nazis...in the mirror! :rotfl:
I don't take responsibility at all
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18162
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Facebook removes ads for violating policy on organized hate.

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:12 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Another argument for allowing hate speech is simply that a "Barking Dog Doesn't Bite".
Allowing people to rant and relieve their anger should be the preferred choice over having people simmer their hatred underground and commit physical violence.
Also, by banning "hate speech" you may enter a slippery slope. What you think is acceptable speech today might be called "hate speech" tomorrow (by the government). Do you really want to end up in a China-style mind control situation where every speech that is "unwanted" by the state is labeled as "subversive" or "hate speech"?

How many mosques/synagogues/walmarts have been shot up by Trump’s acolytes spouting his talking points verbatim?
I don't take responsibility at all

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