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Dutchy
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Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:05 am

Moscow (AFP) - Thousands of Russian troops will march in Moscow on Wednesday as President Vladimir Putin brushes off virus fears to host a World War II commemoration ahead of a crucial vote on his rule.

The military display in Red Square to mark 75 years since the Soviet victory in World War II had been scheduled for May 9 but the Kremlin postponed it citing requests from veterans, as coronavirus cases shot up.

Putin rescheduled the event as soon as lockdown measures eased, keen to move on from an outbreak that has hit his country hard.

With more than 8,000 recorded fatalities and around 580,000 confirmed COVID-19 infections, Russia has the pandemic's third largest caseload after the United States and Brazil.


It comes just a week ahead of a national vote on constitutional amendments that would allow Putin, in power since 2000, to reset his term-limit clock to zero and stay in the Kremlin until 2036.


Source

So in the midst of a pentameric holding a parade with many spectators. Does the obvious propaganda - playing the patriotic cards - showing Putin as a "strong" leader will be enough to balance the damage done to the Russian economy? As we understand it, even in Russia, Putin's popularity is diminishing.

The vote next week to give Putin the freedom to stay on till 2036, isn't a given anymore. Although was watching a broadcast last night - Nieuwsuur - which a Russian commentator said; "the results are already fixed: the vote turnout will be 65% with a majority of 75% will be in favour".
We will see if this prediction will be correct. The new "constitution" is already available in bookshops all over Russia.
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Dieuwer
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:13 pm

Watched Nieuwsuur too. They even showed the book in the bookstore with the results of the "vote" already in it.
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:07 pm

Putin has stated that if possible, he may consider running again in the presidential election.... it's nothing but the world's largest o longest theater scene recorded by Putin himself
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olle
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:13 pm

The problem for Putin is that there was an agreement between regime and people.

1. Higher living standards
2. People looks away from corruption

Now with lower living standards and a oil price combined with peak consuming of oil will either force Russia and the regime to open up or there will be a new 1990s.

Russia is exporting its oil mainly to a Europe that is about to go electric. No good news.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:52 pm

The gloss may be going off celebrations already. Looks not they're not going to be quite what Putin intended:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/06/ ... ead-a70596
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The vote next week to give Putin the freedom to stay on till 2036, isn't a given anymore. Although was watching a broadcast last night - Nieuwsuur - which a Russian commentator said; "the results are already fixed: the vote turnout will be 65% with a majority of 75% will be in favour".


Yes, I have found this footage in the video. As usual, the devil is in the details. Something about the "commentator" - this is Levada Center, present in Justice Dept's Foreign Agent registry due to significant share of funding coming from foreign clients. Such organizations are not allowed to publish research results related to elections, polls and other votes. Hence, they have not done any research of their own, and all they can do is speculate on the agenda of "fixed results" and such. Their target audience is commercial clients and journalists such as Western ones.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 25110.html
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:19 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The vote next week to give Putin the freedom to stay on till 2036, isn't a given anymore. Although was watching a broadcast last night - Nieuwsuur - which a Russian commentator said; "the results are already fixed: the vote turnout will be 65% with a majority of 75% will be in favour".


Yes, I have found this footage in the video. As usual, the devil is in the details. Something about the "commentator" - this is Levada Center, present in Justice Dept's Foreign Agent registry due to significant share of funding coming from foreign clients. Such organizations are not allowed to publish research results related to elections, polls and other votes. Hence, they have not done any research of their own, and all they can do is speculate on the agenda of "fixed results" and such. Their target audience is commercial clients and journalists such as Western ones.


We will see when the "official" are published. BTW do you have something negative to say about the other political commentator?
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anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We will see when the "official" are published. BTW do you have something negative to say about the other political commentator?


I don't know who the other commentator is, hence won't have anything on that one. And - what have I said that's negative about Levada? Election-related sociology research isn't their area. Talking to them about it is not unlike going to a dentist when you need a heart surgery. Sure, since both hold medical degree you may get some opinion on your heart problem, but the right person for you to go to is still a cardiac surgeon.
Last edited by anrec80 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We will see when the "official" are published. BTW do you have something negative to say about the other political commentator?


I don't know who the other commentator is, hence won't have anything on that one. And - what have I said that's negative about Levada? Election-related sociology research isn't their area. Talking to them about it is not unlike going to a dentist when you need a heart surgery. Sure, since both hold medical degree you may get some opinion on your heart problem, but the right person for you to go to is still a cardiac surgeon.


The point being made is that the research doesn't matter, the results are already fixed. Given the previous election results in Putin's Russia, it is not a bad assumption. So we will see if he is right with the prediction that the Putin government has fixed the result on 65% turnout and 75% in favour of putting up with Putin till 2036.

And will see if the Russian population will not react to this and will put up with another episode of economic misery for ordinary Russians.

BTW do you have any opinion about this change in the constitution which will give Putin the opportunity to stay in power for 37 years?
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anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The point being made is that the research doesn't matter, the results are already fixed. Given the previous election results in Putin's Russia, it is not a bad assumption. So we will see if he is right with the prediction that the Putin government has fixed the result on 65% turnout and 75% in favour of putting up with Putin till 2036.


Well, his fixed results assumption - it's just that, an assumption. As a sociology expert, he may have understanding of the most likely outcome. But it doesn't mean there is any kind of "fixing" anywhere in the picture.

Dutchy wrote:
And will see if the Russian population will not react to this and will put up with another episode of economic misery for ordinary Russians.


Where do you see economic misery? Russians now are itching to go on vacation and are annoyed that too many of their favorite places are shut down. Doesn't look like an economic misery to me at all. Economic misery is when the population is itching to go anywhere (regardless where) to make some cash to pay for their electricity and water bill.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW do you have any opinion about this change in the constitution which will give Putin the opportunity to stay in power for 37 years?


I do not. Why should I have it? If Russians want to grant Putin two more terms - it's up to them, let them do it, it's business of Russians as a sovereign nation. Same as whether or not you or your British neighbors should have a king or a queen. You want to have one - please, by all means. You no longer do - then you are free to hold a vote and ask him to resign (just one ask - please don't ignite a war while doing it :D :D :D ). If you want to do away with parliament democracy and want to return to an absolute monarchy - you as the nation are in your right to do that as well.
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:46 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The point being made is that the research doesn't matter, the results are already fixed. Given the previous election results in Putin's Russia, it is not a bad assumption. So we will see if he is right with the prediction that the Putin government has fixed the result on 65% turnout and 75% in favour of putting up with Putin till 2036.


Well, his fixed results assumption - it's just that, an assumption. As a sociology expert, he may have understanding of the most likely outcome. But it doesn't mean there is any kind of "fixing" anywhere in the picture.


All the voter fraud by the Putin regime are well documented. So it is indeed an assupmption that the Putin regime will commit fraud yet again. Given it is quite important for Putin and his cronies to remain in power, it is the most likely he will commit voters fraud.

So we will see if the 65% and 75% are about right or not.

And we will see if heh number of Corona cases will rise in 2 to 3 weeks because of this publicity stunt.
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:39 am

Sounds familiar, hopefully it'll be just as embarrassing as the one stateside
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anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
All the voter fraud by the Putin regime are well documented.


And where is all this "fraud" documented and by whom? Ideally, some more reputable sources than foreign agent NGOs please. And why then the whole world recognizes the results of Russian votes, including for Putin?

Dutchy wrote:
So it is indeed an assupmption that the Putin regime will commit fraud yet again. Given it is quite important for Putin and his cronies to remain in power, it is the most likely he will commit voters fraud.


Well, first he needs to commit it, then this needs to be established, and only then we can talk like this.

Dutchy wrote:
And we will see if heh number of Corona cases will rise in 2 to 3 weeks because of this publicity stunt.


I would not worry about Corona. Russia handled it well and mortality rates from it are times lower than in Western Europe.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:25 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
All the voter fraud by the Putin regime are well documented.


And where is all this "fraud" documented and by whom? Ideally, some more reputable sources than foreign agent NGOs please. And why then the whole world recognizes the results of Russian votes, including for Putin?


Oh, the same way as the rest of the world accepts the "vote" for Kim Jong-un, or any vote which has been staged. Putin is the autocrat in charge, so the world has to deal with his regime. No need to have a fake election for that.

No need for NGO's: all caught on tape. Quite funny actually that we have tape of voter fraud and this is not the only one.

Nice Washington post article[url] or perhaps [url=https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/2/4/383577_0.pdf]Link official report by the OSCE?

It doesn't matter, I am sure you will find an excuse for all of them. And the rest of the forum will not believe you. But that is fine.
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:31 pm

anrec80 wrote:
I would not worry about Corona. Russia handled it well and mortality rates from it are times lower than in Western Europe.


Well? 598,878 cases. Well at least you guys are a true world power again. I remember you saying that Russia had only 4.000 reported cases and you were bolstering about that. Now we are at 600.000 and yet you still say you are doing fine. You remind me of guy.
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
Well? 598,878 cases. Well at least you guys are a true world power again. I remember you saying that Russia had only 4.000 reported cases and you were bolstering about that. Now we are at 600.000 and yet you still say you are doing fine. You remind me of guy.


When the whole world saw track record of Western nations in combating this COVID thing, I did have a hope that you'd keep silent about it. If you look at the same site - Russia has 8350 casualties for about 150 million, while 17.3 million Dutch had 6144. Ever wondered why 5-8 times (!) difference? And casualties were recorded the same way everywhere, per WHO guidelines - if the person was tested positive, death is recorded as COVID-related.

And if you want to align to Russia's stats, from their number now about 50% - symptom free, found by aggressive and accessible testing, and contact tracing. https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 1209.shtml In Western healthcare system - is there such a thing even? Or would they give you a test only when symptoms are clear? Here in the US, a test costs 4 figure amount, and won't necessarily be covered by insurance just because you don't feel alright and want it.

And I am not even bringing up issues when you guys were re-buying medical supplies from one another, detaining aid, and such. You have a lot of work to analyze how "democratic nations" handled this, and how come they are lagging so far behind. Clearly, this COVID isn't the most glorious page of West's history.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:01 am

Dutchy wrote:
Oh, the same way as the rest of the world accepts the "vote" for Kim Jong-un, or any vote which has been staged. Putin is the autocrat in charge, so the world has to deal with his regime. No need to have a fake election for that.


Why does the world "have" to deal with him? If a nation doesn't want to maintain relations with some other nation, they don't have to. You don't like Putin and do not want to maintain ties with Russia, you can break diplomatic ties and both nations can recall their embassies back, no problem.

Dutchy wrote:
No need for NGO's: all caught on tape. Quite funny actually that we have tape of voter fraud and this is not the only one.


Really? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9RCe55y0dw

See how useless those videos as evidence are? And I didn't even go far - people in comments mention Scotland, Bulgaria, Poland as to where this could have taken place.

And overall, this stuff happens absolutely everywhere and doesn't impact anything on grander scheme of things at all. What does matter is how they count behind closed doors in each regional voting committee, which stats from where they are eager to take, and from where they are not. Elections results forgery doesn't happen at lower level like this - this is too visible, and the impact is subzero. And not on the highest level - this is where all the attention is. It's nearly always in the middle levels, in cities and regions - the doors there are closed, attention and scrutiny in regions isn't that much, informal relationships matter much more, and hence whoever want to play the game dishonestly - this is where opportunities are.
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:09 am

anrec80 wrote:
When the whole world saw track record of Western nations in combating this COVID thing, I did have a hope that you'd keep silent about it. If you look at the same site - Russia has 8350 casualties for about 150 million, while 17.3 million Dutch had 6144. Ever wondered why 5-8 times (!) difference?


Yup, wondered about it, possible explanations:

> the Russian doctors are the best in the world, are so much better than in the west. Are capable to cure so many people;
> registration is different per country;
> the virus in Russia is completely different and much less deathly;
> fraud, people are afraid to register the truth;

Given that at least 3 doctors have fallen out of a window, I would say option 4 is most likely.
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:29 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Oh, the same way as the rest of the world accepts the "vote" for Kim Jong-un, or any vote which has been staged. Putin is the autocrat in charge, so the world has to deal with his regime. No need to have a fake election for that.


Why does the world "have" to deal with him? If a nation doesn't want to maintain relations with some other nation, they don't have to. You don't like Putin and do not want to maintain ties with Russia, you can break diplomatic ties and both nations can recall their embassies back, no problem.


Because if you don't want to maintain diplomatic ties with non-democratic countries, thus alone full democratic countries, one only has ties with 22 countries in the world. Or if you want to relax it a bit, and take in the flawed democracies in, only 75 countries. The Putin regime is on 134: authoritarian regime. I don't think it is quite useful to stop diplomatic ties with hybrid or authoritarian regimes.

But to go full circle, the elections in Russia are not free and the results are fixed. It is all telling that you fixed on those video's and not on the systemic ways the Putin regime manipulates the results. As entertaining those videos are, the overall picture is much more telling. But please go on and defend the Putin regime as you like. Defending the indefensible is entertaining at least.
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:11 am

Totally support holding the parade. I disagree with the drastic measures taken in Russia in the spring of this year which, along with equally drastic measures pretty much tanked the world's economy.
In Russia this was, as far as I see it, used to build emergency wards and stock supplies to deal with the increase in patients, which is working more or less.

Keeping everyone at home, businesses closed juat ain't the right decision economically.
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:36 am

Absolutely, the Russian way is an example for the World.
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:42 am

tu204 wrote:
Totally support holding the parade. I disagree with the drastic measures taken in Russia in the spring of this year which, along with equally drastic measures pretty much tanked the world's economy.
In Russia this was, as far as I see it, used to build emergency wards and stock supplies to deal with the increase in patients, which is working more or less.

Keeping everyone at home, businesses closed juat ain't the right decision economically.


I totally expected you to support whatever Putin does. 600.000 people got infected in Russia. No flattening the curve as of yet, so obviously the perfect time to relax the measures taken. Disproportional medical staff got infected. Reports of Russian build ventilators catching fire. Doctors being killed under more than suspicious circumstances. Yeah, everything is fine in Russia.

The number of death is highly questionable, even the WTO is questioning the figures now.

tu204 wrote:
Keeping everyone at home, businesses closed juat ain't the right decision economically.


I suggest you speak to Anrec80 about this:
anrec80 wrote:
I would not worry about Corona. Russia handled it well


He claims Russia is doing great economically.
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anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:25 am

tu204 wrote:
Totally support holding the parade. I disagree with the drastic measures taken in Russia in the spring of this year which, along with equally drastic measures pretty much tanked the world's economy.
In Russia this was, as far as I see it, used to build emergency wards and stock supplies to deal with the increase in patients, which is working more or less.

Keeping everyone at home, businesses closed juat ain't the right decision economically.


Agree - pretty much everywhere in Russia bulk of quarantine measures was not necessary. Most people could have been working, visiting stores and restaurants, keeping others employed (with reasonable precautions). Maybe in Moscow area, due to population density, the measures were justified while the hospital system was handling the increased load. Same as pretty much anywhere in the USA.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
I totally expected you to support whatever Putin does. 600.000 people got infected in Russia. No flattening the curve as of yet, so obviously the perfect time to relax the measures taken. Disproportional medical staff got infected.


Total infected was actually by far more. Now that they are taking random antibody tests in Moscow - out of 50.000 tests done about 15% are antibody positive - which means that out of 12 million people in Moscow 2 million have come into contact with the virus at some point.

Dutchy wrote:
Reports of Russian build ventilators catching fire.

That happens. The only way not to have such issues is not to do anything at all. At least, they are making their own ventilators and aren't intercepting someone else's supplies in the planes that are about to take off.

Dutchy wrote:
Doctors being killed under more than suspicious circumstances. Yeah, everything is fine in Russia.


Yeah, because of COVID I guess.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
> the Russian doctors are the best in the world, are so much better than in the west. Are capable to cure so many people;


Here - it's about healthcare system as the whole. Russians took 3 months from the time of the very first reports to plan everything at all levels - prop up new temporary hospitals, increase the number of ventilators, retrain doctors, gear up research institutions. Plan and implement aggressive testing measures, contact tracing from early on. If you identify and isolate the infected ones, each of them will infect fewer people, and you can identify and start supporting their immune system early on. Hence less need in intensive care and ventilators.

Putin even had military to construct hospitals in the cities that needed the capacity the most - they can erect and equip a hospital in as little as 3 months. All properly designed, with electricity, oxygen supplies, clean and infected areas.

Dutchy wrote:
> registration is different per country;


Same as everywhere - if the person had a positive COVID test, then it's a COVID-related death.

Dutchy wrote:
> the virus in Russia is completely different and much less deathly;


It came to Moscow from Europe - hence the same as European. Yes, in regions it only now, over time looses its strength, but not during the pandemics in Moscow. Moscow doctors who are now going into regions to help finish the thing off say that now the virus is indeed less aggressive.

Dutchy wrote:
> fraud, people are afraid to register the truth;


It's the opposite - hospitals are interested financially to prop up the number of COVID patients since for a COVID patient they get a bit more $$$ than for a patient with a regular pneumonia.

Dutchy wrote:
Given that at least 3 doctors have fallen out of a window, I would say option 4 is most likely.


I highly doubt that because of COVID the doctors started to fall from windows. Apparently such incidents happen during normal times as well.
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:34 am

anrec80 wrote:
I highly doubt that because of COVID the doctors started to fall from windows. Apparently such incidents happen during normal times as well.


You highly doubt, ok duly noted. You are hardly an authority as it comes to given unbiased truth out of Russia. So Russian doctors regularly fall from windows. Perhaps time to save doctors from themselves if it is such a regular occurrence. Anyhow, these doctors dared to speak out about the appalling conditions in Russian hospitals. And then "fell" out of a window. It could be that there is no relation between the two, I mean why would there be. All people dare to speak out against the Putin regime are threaded very nicely as we know. No causal relation then.
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anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So Russian doctors regularly fall from windows. Perhaps time to save doctors from themselves if it is such a regular occurrence.


Is there any particular statistics, say, year over year, of doctors falling out of a window?

Dutchy wrote:
Anyhow, these doctors dared to speak out about the appalling conditions in Russian hospitals. And then "fell" out of a window. It could be that there is no relation between the two, I mean why would there be. All people dare to speak out against the Putin regime are threaded very nicely as we know. No causal relation then.


Yes, there are doctors organizations, and they have been speaking out regularly. Russia is a big country with many regions. In some regions, they have brand new, high-tech, stellar level hospitals. In others - there well may be more hospitals that are in need of renovation and upgrade. Just as it is anywhere else in the world.

And as of "speaking out" - the "totalitarian dictator" has an annual habit of hosting "direct line" with people in regions - and those are full of complaints on schools, hospitals, roads, etc. When a complaint is voiced on such show, there, the local mayor or governor is usually on the spot within minutes, not even hours :). And in addition to all that, media is around there for weeks to come, keeping an eye whether something is done or not. So nobody is afraid to speak out.
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So Russian doctors regularly fall from windows. Perhaps time to save doctors from themselves if it is such a regular occurrence.


Is there any particular statistics, say, year over year, of doctors falling out of a window?


Your argument, you answer your own question then. :lol:

anrec80 wrote:
I highly doubt that because of COVID the doctors started to fall from windows. Apparently such incidents happen during normal times as well.


Looking forward to the statistic, or we agree that there is something mighty fishy when 3 doctors "fell" out of the window. And that the causal link between speaking out and falling out of the window is there.
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alfa164
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:57 pm

tu204 wrote:
Totally support holding the parade.


You must not be interested in using the streets anytime soon...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... struction/

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:15 pm

alfa164 wrote:
You must not be interested in using the streets anytime soon...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... struction/

:roll:


And what's the problem here? First - generally they use rubber tracks on tanks during the parades. And second - if local residents enjoy the parade and are cool with fixing their pavement afterwards - what's the deal?
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Looking forward to the statistic, or we agree that there is something mighty fishy when 3 doctors "fell" out of the window. And that the causal link between speaking out and falling out of the window is there.


The article you posted is dated May 4, about 1.5 months ago. Since then, we must have had at least a dozen more doctors falling out of their windows. Any further developments?
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:22 pm

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
You must not be interested in using the streets anytime soon...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... struction/

:roll:


And what's the problem here? First - generally they use rubber tracks on tanks during the parades. And second - if local residents enjoy the parade and are cool with fixing their pavement afterwards - what's the deal?


Putin decides, not the local population. Russia is an autocracy, not democracy.
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:24 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Looking forward to the statistic, or we agree that there is something mighty fishy when 3 doctors "fell" out of the window. And that the causal link between speaking out and falling out of the window is there.


The article you posted is dated May 4, about 1.5 months ago. Since then, we must have had at least a dozen more doctors falling out of their windows. Any further developments?


Again, it is your argument, not mine. Or we agree they were murdered because they spoke out.
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alfa164
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:51 pm

anrec80 wrote:
And what's the problem here? First - generally they use rubber tracks on tanks during the parades.


Maybe you should look away from your "talking points" and look at the photos...

:roll:



anrec80 wrote:
And second - if local residents enjoy the parade and are cool with fixing their pavement afterwards - what's the deal?


The "local population" doesn't have any say in the decision. Putin does what he wants.

Now... you can look for your talking points again...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:22 pm

I saw the images on TV: nobody wearings mask, people almost on top of each other. Like nothing is amiss.
I guess they will have an explosion of cases shortly...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:49 am

Dieuwer wrote:
I saw the images on TV: nobody wearings mask, people almost on top of each other. Like nothing is amiss.
I guess they will have an explosion of cases shortly...


Yes, probably.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I saw the images on TV: nobody wearings mask, people almost on top of each other. Like nothing is amiss.
I guess they will have an explosion of cases shortly...


Yes, probably.


Not necessarily - if they were given express tests. All high guests and members of their delegations are given ones.

Another related incident:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 42420.html

Coronavirus was found with 2 members of Kyrgyz delegation. When they were flying out, all tests came negative. But upon arrival, some were positive. As the result, their President cancelled his participation and went onto self-quarantine. So safety measures are in place.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I saw the images on TV: nobody wearings mask, people almost on top of each other. Like nothing is amiss.
I guess they will have an explosion of cases shortly...


Yes, probably.


Not necessarily - if they were given express tests. All high guests and members of their delegations are given ones.


Oh sure, the people in high places, Putin and his cronies, will take care of themselves. I have no concern about them. More so the ordinary people in Moscow or in other places where they were forced to have these kinds of parades. In the news: the governor of Crimea of all places was against these kinds of parades until he was told by the Kremlin what to do.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:35 am

Please keep the thread on topic.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
Oh sure, the people in high places, Putin and his cronies, will take care of themselves. I have no concern about them. More so the ordinary people in Moscow or in other places where they were forced to have these kinds of parades. In the news: the governor of Crimea of all places was against these kinds of parades until he was told by the Kremlin what to do.


What you are saying - some governors are objecting what central authorities say - is normal. In any country, some governors do object central authorities opinion, and Putin's Russia is actually quite liberal here. Speaking of parades - Russians generally support them. During COVID, in Russia, each governor was explicitly given a right to strengthen or relax restrictions at his own consideration, and central government's directives were basically just recommendations.

When organizing the parades (and given low infection rate and casualties), we can say they certainly know what they are doing with respect to COVID. Soviet and now Russian healthcare has lasting and strong traditions in handling infections like this.
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:47 am

anrec80 wrote:
And when organizing the parades, they certainly know what they are doing with respect to COVID.


Quite a bold statement, yet again not supported by the facts. We will see what will happen. 626,779 positive cases and counting, all this according to Russian authorities. At least the number of daily new cases seem to go down a bit, not as rapid as in other countries, but go. down nevertheless. In about 1,5weeks we will see either a rise or not.
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L410Turbolet
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:46 pm

Dieuwer wrote:

I guess they will have an explosion of cases shortly...

They won't. No numbers, no problem.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:56 pm

People here are forgetting the medias impact on the Russian People. With the state controlling media and most Russians only using Russian social media platforms that conform to the government, most people have this infatuation with the dictator of Russia. The Russian culture also created this, with most Russians who lived under the USSR but never left are used to the idea of many leaders who lead for most of their lives and we have seen this in history as Russia is used to long time leaders without the large democratic waves we saw in Western Europe.

Moscow loves Putin as he has made Moscow the European Dubai, a beautiful city but merely a facade to show off wealth. At the same time, cities that aren't Moscow or St. Petersburg are forgotten and economically are struggling to survive. I was in Khabarovsk in April 2019, most of the Stalinist architecture of large, towering concrete apartment blocks exist. The economy there is being eroded slowly as more and more factories shut down.

Putin will stay in power probably until hell freezes over or we colonize the nearest star as he seems poised to keep his power ad infinitum
 
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:19 am

Putin declared triumphant in referendum allowing him to rule until 2036 – five hours before polls close


Link

Well congrats Putin, you can remain in power till 2036. And a nasty additional thing, he can't be prosecuted for his deeds after that. So he is as corrupt as he can be (up to 200bn), but he amends the constitution in such a way, he can't face the legal consequences of it.

And of course, there are a number of other things:
- pension rights are protected
- Russians believe in God
- marriage is between a man and a woman

Then there were the lotteries: if you voted you could win large prizes, including houses. And of course, there were number of incidents of fraud. Pop-up polling stations on dirt roads or in closed-off areas. Alexei Navalny doesn't recognize the results, but because of the Coronavirus will not take to the streets, perhaps later this year.

So anyhow, the constitutional coup has been a great success for Putin and its cronies, the Putin regime can remain in power till hell freezes over. And the losers are: Russians, especially the ones in minorities: atheist, LGHBT-communities etc. or anyone hoping for change.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The point being made is that the research doesn't matter, the results are already fixed. Given the previous election results in Putin's Russia, it is not a bad assumption. So we will see if he is right with the prediction that the Putin government has fixed the result on 65% turnout and 75% in favour of putting up with Putin till 2036.


Well, his fixed results assumption - it's just that, an assumption. As a sociology expert, he may have understanding of the most likely outcome. But it doesn't mean there is any kind of "fixing" anywhere in the picture.


And the "results" after "counting" 98% of the "casted" votes are: 65% turnout and 78% in favour. That is damn close to the predictions made of the fixed results. You've got to admit that, anrec80.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Well congrats Putin, you can remain in power till 2036.


First, he needs to decide to run first. The reason he did it is that if he doesn’t, the whole Russian elite and government will start guessing his successor. And, as he himself put it - “they need to work, not scout for the successor”. This is mostly a measure to ensure political stability.

Dutchy wrote:
And a nasty additional thing, he can't be prosecuted for his deeds after that. So he is as corrupt as he can be (up to 200bn), but he amends the constitution in such a way, he can't face the legal consequences of it.


First you need to find at least one of those billions, instead of spreading rumors. Otherwise this is like Russians in Eastern Ukraine, UFO in Area 51 or Bigfoot - everyone talks about them, but nobody has actually seen any.

Dutchy wrote:
- marriage is between a man and a woman


Yepp, this is what the marriage is for. Need to improve demographics and have more people living in the country.

Then there were the lotteries: if you voted you could win large prizes, including houses. And of course, there were number of incidents of fraud. Pop-up polling stations on dirt roads or in closed-off areas.

Dutchy wrote:
Alexei Navalny doesn't recognize the results,


Yeah, Navalny is the authority for sure. A year or two ago, he was “taking the streets” with 5 graders. Now with whom - preschoolers? This has turned into political pedophilia of some kind.

Dutchy wrote:
So anyhow, the constitutional coup has been a great success for Putin and its cronies, the Putin regime can remain in power till hell freezes over. And the losers are: Russians, especially the ones in minorities: atheist, LGHBT-communities etc. or anyone hoping for change.


Russia has over 100 of ethnic minorities - and many of them has their own language or religion. And nobody complains. Whoever wants to believe in what - they will keep doing so.

Speaking of LGBT - nobody cares who loves whom, but can’t have LGBT propaganda in public.

Dutchy wrote:
And the "results" after "counting" 98% of the "casted" votes are: 65% turnout and 78% in favour. That is damn close to the predictions made of the fixed results. You've got to admit that, anrec80.


Close, but not there. Being a sociologist, it’s not hard to predict such vote. And given a discrepancy - fixing turned out to be quite flexible :)))
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:51 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Well congrats Putin, you can remain in power till 2036.


First, he needs to decide to run first. The reason he did it is that if he doesn’t, the whole Russian elite and government will start guessing his successor. And, as he himself put it - “they need to work, not scout for the successor”. This is mostly a measure to ensure political stability.

Dutchy wrote:
And a nasty additional thing, he can't be prosecuted for his deeds after that. So he is as corrupt as he can be (up to 200bn), but he amends the constitution in such a way, he can't face the legal consequences of it.


First you need to find at least one of those billions, instead of spreading rumors. Otherwise this is like Russians in Eastern Ukraine, UFO in Area 51 or Bigfoot - everyone talks about them, but nobody has actually seen any.

Dutchy wrote:
- marriage is between a man and a woman


Yepp, this is what the marriage is for. Need to improve demographics and have more people living in the country.

Then there were the lotteries: if you voted you could win large prizes, including houses. And of course, there were number of incidents of fraud. Pop-up polling stations on dirt roads or in closed-off areas.

Dutchy wrote:
Alexei Navalny doesn't recognize the results,


Yeah, Navalny is the authority for sure. A year or two ago, he was “taking the streets” with 5 graders. Now with whom - preschoolers? This has turned into political pedophilia of some kind.

Dutchy wrote:
So anyhow, the constitutional coup has been a great success for Putin and its cronies, the Putin regime can remain in power till hell freezes over. And the losers are: Russians, especially the ones in minorities: atheist, LGHBT-communities etc. or anyone hoping for change.


Russia has over 100 of ethnic minorities - and many of them has their own language or religion. And nobody complains. Whoever wants to believe in what - they will keep doing so.

Speaking of LGBT - nobody cares who loves whom, but can’t have LGBT propaganda in public.

Dutchy wrote:
And the "results" after "counting" 98% of the "casted" votes are: 65% turnout and 78% in favour. That is damn close to the predictions made of the fixed results. You've got to admit that, anrec80.


Close, but not there. Being a sociologist, it’s not hard to predict such vote. And given a discrepancy - fixing turned out to be quite flexible :)))


A reaction as we became to be expected. Not worth to refute yet again, everyone can draw its own conclusions.

But a few things:
- Seriously, what is LGBT propaganda? What is it, could you give me 5 examples? And what does it supposed to do? And who sends it?
- Seriously, compare Russians in Eastern Ukraine to Bigfoot. I would say it is a disgrace for the Russian soldiers who gave their life in Eastern Ukraine.
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anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
But a few things:
- Seriously, what is LGBT propaganda? What is it, could you give me 5 examples? And what does it supposed to do? And who sends it?


You need o understand how Russians (and most in Slavic countries for that reason) see Western liberal approach to minorities. They firmly believe that these minorities are imposing their ways if viewing the world onto everyone else, and putting their wants in front of interests (including strategic and long term) of the whole nation. And not everything they like. For example, LGBT parades and flags demonstrations they believe it’s too much. Speaking of LGBT, as I mentioned - the nation is interested in healthier families and higher birth rates. For that, the kids since being young must see the traditional family in the center, including biological father and mother (not both of the same sex, or Parent 1 and Parent 2). Hence this is illegal in public. That said however, this is allowed in private places with 18+ audience.

Dutchy wrote:
- Seriously, compare Russians in Eastern Ukraine to Bigfoot. I would say it is a disgrace for the Russian soldiers who gave their life in Eastern Ukraine.


Yepp, exactly that. All the core traits are the same.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:54 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But a few things:
- Seriously, what is LGBT propaganda? What is it, could you give me 5 examples? And what does it supposed to do? And who sends it?


You need o understand how Russians (and most in Slavic countries for that reason) see Western liberal approach to minorities. They firmly believe that these minorities are imposing their ways if viewing the world onto everyone else, and putting their wants in front of interests (including strategic and long term) of the whole nation. And not everything they like. For example, LGBT parades and flags demonstrations they believe it’s too much. Speaking of LGBT, as I mentioned - the nation is interested in healthier families and higher birth rates. For that, the kids since being young must see the traditional family in the center, including biological father and mother (not both of the same sex, or Parent 1 and Parent 2). Hence this is illegal in public. That said however, this is allowed in private places with 18+ audience.


It is a ridiculous statement. There is no causal link between accepting your sons, daughters, aunts, uncles, brother, sister as they are and birth rate, which seems to be your primary argument - which in itself is quite a scary argument. In Russia, the LGBTQ community is marginalized, with all the problems for these people that come with that.

BTW the birth rate in Russia is about 1,6 child per woman, in the EU it is 1,62. So it was put in this new "constitution" to appease the hyper conservatives in order to. vote for everything Putin wants.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
- Seriously, compare Russians in Eastern Ukraine to Bigfoot. I would say it is a disgrace for the Russian soldiers who gave their life in Eastern Ukraine.


Yepp, exactly that. All the core traits are the same.


Nope, one it true with lots of evidence and Bigfoot has no evidence what so ever. So that you put these two together, just shows how little respect you. have for your fallen fellow countrymen.
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VSMUT
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
When the whole world saw track record of Western nations in combating this COVID thing, I did have a hope that you'd keep silent about it. If you look at the same site - Russia has 8350 casualties for about 150 million, while 17.3 million Dutch had 6144. Ever wondered why 5-8 times (!) difference?


Yup, wondered about it, possible explanations:

> the Russian doctors are the best in the world, are so much better than in the west. Are capable to cure so many people;
> registration is different per country;
> the virus in Russia is completely different and much less deathly;
> fraud, people are afraid to register the truth;

Given that at least 3 doctors have fallen out of a window, I would say option 4 is most likely.



Russia has more doctors per capita than most European countries, Scandinavia and the Netherlands included. On a global ranking they are number 8, the Netherlands is 16:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... physicians

They have a decent amount of nurses per capita, but less than the Netherlands:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/283 ... habitants/

They also have more hospital beds, ranking 4th on a global scale, the Netherlands is 23rd. They are somewhat further behind in ICU beds, but still ahead of many western countries, including the Netherlands. Same link also suggests they are well ahead of the game when it comes to ventilators:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... pital_beds

Socialist and Communist states historically had very strong health systems, many kept that legacy after the breakup. Plus they have a history of fighting epidemics, including plauge in 1939, smallpox in 1959, cholera in 1970 and an accidental anthrax leak in 1979. Chernobyl probably didn't hurt in this regard.

Unlike many western countries, their military didn't discard or sell emergency war stocks of PPE and other useful equipment when the cold war ended.

There is a fairly good chance the official numbers aren't too far from the truth. Through sheer luck, they were better prepared to handle it than what you would normally think.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:55 am

Dutchy wrote:
It is a ridiculous statement. There is no causal link between accepting your sons, daughters, aunts, uncles, brother, sister as they are and birth rate, which seems to be your primary argument - which in itself is quite a scary argument.


Nobody says that in Russia accepting your children for who they are is a crime or a wrongdoing. There are even celebrities whose kids are LGBTQ, and nobody is making a problem out of it.

Dutchy wrote:
In Russia, the LGBTQ community is marginalized, with all the problems for these people that come with that.


Who marginalizes them and how? There isn’t a single legislature norm left that would somehow penalize or punish someone for being an LGBT person. Yes, Russia doesn’t have any craze about “fighting for rights” that is killing the West now, and that’s a great thing. An important thing that Russians are against is the unfair advantage our minorities often get in the West as part of this “fighting”, and often this is what this “fighting” is aimed for.

That doesn’t mean that the notion of women’s and other rights is entirely absent. My Grandma and my Grandpa’s sister, born in mid-1920s, were engineers (a chemical and in high-precision mechanics respectively), while in Quebec, Canada, in 1950-60s, they were fighting for women’s rights and were (and some still are) extremely proud of that. My French professor at University in Canada, a Quebecois, with big pride, was lecturing us on their fight for women’s rights... Until she asked what our grandparents were doing and I told just that. And grandparents themselves have never felt any sorts of discrimination, neither at universities nor at workplaces. And when looking at the Western “fight for rights” they were just wondering “what do these people want?” and “why can’t they just find something to do with their lives - e.g. go to school, get a job”. And that was the generation born in 1920s and entering adulthood in 1940s - right in the middle “bloody tyrant Stalin” time.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW the birth rate in Russia is about 1,6 child per woman, in the EU it is 1,62. So it was put in this new "constitution" to appease the hyper conservatives in order to. vote for everything Putin wants.


Yes, and this is the situation they are working on correcting.

Dutchy wrote:
Nope, one it true with lots of evidence and Bigfoot has no evidence what so ever. So that you put these two together, just shows how little respect you. have for your fallen fellow countrymen.


You can also find Bigfoot and Area 51 aliens “evidence” if you search hard enough. But it will all be of the same quality as “Russians in Ukraine”.

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