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anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:55 am

Dutchy wrote:
It is a ridiculous statement. There is no causal link between accepting your sons, daughters, aunts, uncles, brother, sister as they are and birth rate, which seems to be your primary argument - which in itself is quite a scary argument.


Nobody says that in Russia accepting your children for who they are is a crime or a wrongdoing. There are even celebrities whose kids are LGBTQ, and nobody is making a problem out of it.

Dutchy wrote:
In Russia, the LGBTQ community is marginalized, with all the problems for these people that come with that.


Who marginalizes them and how? There isn’t a single legislature norm left that would somehow penalize or punish someone for being an LGBT person. Yes, Russia doesn’t have any craze about “fighting for rights” that is killing the West now, and that’s a great thing. An important thing that Russians are against is the unfair advantage our minorities often get in the West as part of this “fighting”, and often this is what this “fighting” is aimed for.

That doesn’t mean that the notion of women’s and other rights is entirely absent. My Grandma and my Grandpa’s sister, born in mid-1920s, were engineers (a chemical and in high-precision mechanics respectively), while in Quebec, Canada, in 1950-60s, they were fighting for women’s rights and were (and some still are) extremely proud of that. My French professor at University in Canada, a Quebecois, with big pride, was lecturing us on their fight for women’s rights... Until she asked what our grandparents were doing and I told just that. And grandparents themselves have never felt any sorts of discrimination, neither at universities nor at workplaces. And when looking at the Western “fight for rights” they were just wondering “what do these people want?” and “why can’t they just find something to do with their lives - e.g. go to school, get a job”. And that was the generation born in 1920s and entering adulthood in 1940s - right in the middle “bloody tyrant Stalin” time.

Dutchy wrote:
BTW the birth rate in Russia is about 1,6 child per woman, in the EU it is 1,62. So it was put in this new "constitution" to appease the hyper conservatives in order to. vote for everything Putin wants.


Yes, and this is the situation they are working on correcting.

Dutchy wrote:
Nope, one it true with lots of evidence and Bigfoot has no evidence what so ever. So that you put these two together, just shows how little respect you. have for your fallen fellow countrymen.


You can also find Bigfoot and Area 51 aliens “evidence” if you search hard enough. But it will all be of the same quality as “Russians in Ukraine”.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:23 am

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
When the whole world saw track record of Western nations in combating this COVID thing, I did have a hope that you'd keep silent about it. If you look at the same site - Russia has 8350 casualties for about 150 million, while 17.3 million Dutch had 6144. Ever wondered why 5-8 times (!) difference?


Yup, wondered about it, possible explanations:

> the Russian doctors are the best in the world, are so much better than in the west. Are capable to cure so many people;
> registration is different per country;
> the virus in Russia is completely different and much less deathly;
> fraud, people are afraid to register the truth;

Given that at least 3 doctors have fallen out of a window, I would say option 4 is most likely.



Russia has more doctors per capita than most European countries, Scandinavia and the Netherlands included. On a global ranking they are number 8, the Netherlands is 16:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... physicians

They have a decent amount of nurses per capita, but less than the Netherlands:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/283 ... habitants/

They also have more hospital beds, ranking 4th on a global scale, the Netherlands is 23rd. They are somewhat further behind in ICU beds, but still ahead of many western countries, including the Netherlands. Same link also suggests they are well ahead of the game when it comes to ventilators:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... pital_beds

Socialist and Communist states historically had very strong health systems, many kept that legacy after the breakup. Plus they have a history of fighting epidemics, including plauge in 1939, smallpox in 1959, cholera in 1970 and an accidental anthrax leak in 1979. Chernobyl probably didn't hurt in this regard.

Unlike many western countries, their military didn't discard or sell emergency war stocks of PPE and other useful equipment when the cold war ended.

There is a fairly good chance the official numbers aren't too far from the truth. Through sheer luck, they were better prepared to handle it than what you would normally think.


Two questions:
> how is the Russian health care system overall performance compared to the Netherlands. The number of hospital beds or nurses or doctors actually says nothing at all about their performance. So presented numbers here are misleading.
> how come WTO does question the numbers and remember the numbers are not a bit off but far over.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:50 am

Dutchy wrote:
Two questions:
> how is the Russian health care system overall performance compared to the Netherlands. The number of hospital beds or nurses or doctors actually says nothing at all about their performance. So presented numbers here are misleading.
> how come WTO does question the numbers and remember the numbers are not a bit off but far over.


There is no question that the standards are lower, but Coronavirus doesn't seem like it requires high standards of treatment anyway. It is more a matter of any treatment being better than no treatment. When Italy was worst, they got by with a lot of equipment that was scrounged, often extremely crudely. The US, Brazil and UK are suffering because they don't have universal treatment (too expensive for the first, non-existent for the second, shortage of nurses and equipment and not acting fast enough for the latter).

I'm not sure which numbers you are looking at or why the World Trade Organisation is relevant, but the numbers published by the Danish authorities, sourced from the John Hopkins institute in Baltimore say 666.941 confirmed cases with 9844 deaths.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:14 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is a ridiculous statement. There is no causal link between accepting your sons, daughters, aunts, uncles, brother, sister as they are and birth rate, which seems to be your primary argument - which in itself is quite a scary argument.


Nobody says that in Russia accepting your children for who they are is a crime or a wrongdoing. There are even celebrities whose kids are LGBTQ, and nobody is making a problem out of it.


Putin has given Chechnya free rein to persecute LGBTI people
Europe/Russia: Venice Commission denounces Putin constitutional amendments which avoid execution of ECtHR rulings
RUSSIAN FEDERATION: FURTHER INFORMATION: HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDER AND DOCTOR ON TRIAL: YANA ANTONOVA

But most important, it is the attitude against minorities.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BTW the birth rate in Russia is about 1,6 child per woman, in the EU it is 1,62. So it was put in this new "constitution" to appease the hyper conservatives in order to. vote for everything Putin wants.


Yes, and this is the situation they are working on correcting.


Why correct it? Too many people on the planet as it is.

Anyhow, even if you want to correct that number, the way you tread LGTBQ has no bearing on it, none at all. It is like trying to put out a fire by writing a poem. There is no relation.

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Nope, one it true with lots of evidence and Bigfoot has no evidence what so ever. So that you put these two together, just shows how little respect you. have for your fallen fellow countrymen.


You can also find Bigfoot and Area 51 aliens “evidence” if you search hard enough. But it will all be of the same quality as “Russians in Ukraine”.


I would say the European Council and some random dude saying he saw something, are two completely different things, have completely different levels of credibility. But you are saying that all those mothers weeping because they lost their son in Eastern Ukraine are lying about it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:25 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Two questions:
> how is the Russian health care system overall performance compared to the Netherlands. The number of hospital beds or nurses or doctors actually says nothing at all about their performance. So presented numbers here are misleading.
> how come WTO does question the numbers and remember the numbers are not a bit off but far over.


There is no question that the standards are lower, but Coronavirus doesn't seem like it requires high standards of treatment anyway. It is more a matter of any treatment being better than no treatment. When Italy was worst, they got by with a lot of equipment that was scrounged, often extremely crudely. The US, Brazil and UK are suffering because they don't have universal treatment (too expensive for the first, non-existent for the second, shortage of nurses and equipment and not acting fast enough for the latter).

I'm not sure which numbers you are looking at or why the World Trade Organisation is relevant, but the numbers published by the Danish authorities, sourced from the John Hopkins institute in Baltimore say 666.941 confirmed cases with 9844 deaths.


http://coronamap.org/ and indeed it is from the John Hopkins University. The ratio between the two is off in Russia, which raises questions, Occam's razor concludes that Russia is fidgeting the figures.

World Trade Organisation is relevant because it is the organization who does coordinates the battle against Covid among other things.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The ratio between the two is off in Russia, which raises questions, Occam's razor concludes that Russia is fidgeting the figures.


Not really. There are a few other countries with a similar ratio. Saudi, Chile, Turkey, Singapore just to name the first I found when skimming the list.

Russia was hit later, so had knowledge from elsewhere to work on and prepare for. It is known that Coronavirus attacks a victim harder if they get more exposure, so if they isolated victims quickly, severe cases could be limited quite effectively. If they put their entire state security apparatus to work on identifying cases and chains, you could quickly limit the severe cases very effectively.

Dutchy wrote:
World Trade Organisation is relevant because it is the organization who does coordinates the battle against Covid among other things.


I doubt. The WTO deals with trade disputes, not diseases :roll:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:53 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The ratio between the two is off in Russia, which raises questions, Occam's razor concludes that Russia is fidgeting the figures.


Not really. There are a few other countries with a similar ratio. Saudi, Chile, Turkey, Singapore just to name the first I found when skimming the list.

Russia was hit later, so had knowledge from elsewhere to work on and prepare for. It is known that Coronavirus attacks a victim harder if they get more exposure, so if they isolated victims quickly, severe cases could be limited quite effectively. If they put their entire state security apparatus to work on identifying cases and chains, you could quickly limit the severe cases very effectively.

Dutchy wrote:
World Trade Organisation is relevant because it is the organization who does coordinates the battle against Covid among other things.


I doubt. The WTO deals with trade disputes, not diseases :roll:


Sorry WHO obviously.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 2759
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:48 pm

VSMUT wrote:
There is a fairly good chance the official numbers aren't too far from the truth. Through sheer luck, they were better prepared to handle it than what you would normally think.


Can’t agree more. Except that it’s not sheer luck, it’s a lot of preparation work, even before COVID hit the country. They shut the Chinese border on Jan 31, and could avoid an outbreak in Asian part of the country after a few infected people landed from China. COVID came to Moscow from Europe. And for the whole January all branches of the government presided over by Putin were having one meeting on COVID after the other. They beefed up military builders’ capabilities, and as the result they are able to construct a brand new well equipped hospitals for intensive care patients within 3 months - and have build quite a few of those. They are also

Also - aggressive testing and contact tracing, where everyone in the apartment building would get tests and isolated even if one person from the building tested positive. And in at least recent month - about 50% of those showing a positive test are symptom-free, while in most other places you need to show symptoms to be given a test.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:


Amnesty.org. That says it all.

Dutchy wrote:
Why correct it? Too many people on the planet as it is.

Anyhow, even if you want to correct that number, the way you tread LGTBQ has no bearing on it, none at all. It is like trying to put out a fire by writing a poem. There is no relation.


Each nation has its own right to determine - do they want to have more of their citizens or not. Russians believe that for their territory they want to be more numerous. Speaking of LGBTQ - yes, Russian society asks them to give up a tiny share of their European rights - such as to stage events in public where minors can be present. The nation wants kids to see examples of happy traditional families. That said however, an LGBT organization is free to rent a stadium for an 18+ event, and do there anything they wish. As well as kids are free to decide on their orientation once they reach 18.

Dutchy wrote:

I would say the European Council and some random dude saying he saw something, are two completely different things, have completely different levels of credibility. But you are saying that all those mothers weeping because they lost their son in Eastern Ukraine are lying about it.


The more I see some of the European Council speakers, the more I question what they smoke or sniff there. Could it be something brought from Netherlands? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Speaking of children - here is something for you.

https://sherbrooktimes.com/angels-memor ... ass/57568/

Their parents will not forget not only Ukrainians whose shelling killed them, but also their Western supporters.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3518
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:43 pm

anrec80 wrote:


But can you deny the facts in the article? Whining about a legitimate news source is the last refuge of a liar.


Dutchy wrote:
Each nation has its own right to determine - do they want to have more of their citizens or not. Russians believe that for their territory they want to be more numerous. Speaking of LGBTQ - yes, Russian society asks them to give up a tiny share of their European rights - such as to stage events in public where minors can be present. The nation wants kids to see examples of happy traditional families. That said however, an LGBT organization is free to rent a stadium for an 18+ event, and do there anything they wish. As well as kids are free to decide on their orientation once they reach 18.


Your own excuses show how those individuals' rights are being subjugated by a State apparatus wanting to dictate what a person's "values" should be; far too many young people are part of very unhappy "traditional" families. Of course, Putin counted on a propaganda boost when he and his minions forced the way through.

"Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) youth in Russia face formidable barriers to enjoying their fundamental rights to dignity, health, education, information, and association. In Russia, antipathy towards homosexuality and gender variance is not new—LGBT people there have long faced threats, bullying, abuse inside their families, and discrimination—but the 2013 “gay propaganda” law has increased that social hostility. The law has also had a stifling effect on access to affirming education and support services, with harmful consequences for LGBT youth."


https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/12/11/no-support/russias-gay-propaganda-law-imperils-lgbt-youth


anrec80 wrote:
Speaking of children - here is something for you. https://sherbrooktimes.com/angels-memor ... ass/57568/ Their parents will not forget not only Ukrainians whose shelling killed them, but also their Western supporters.


For someone who wants to question other peoples' sources, you are certainly nonchalant about posting propaganda from Russian sources, trying to camouflage themselves as "legitimate" news:

"A casual glance at a recent edition of the Sherbrooke Times website might lead one to believe that it's a local English-language newspaper. There are articles about the Quebec-based Métro grocery chain and Bombardier, and a profile of Cathy Wong, the new speaker of Montreal city council. But something's off. The English is so riddled with mistakes that it's almost unintelligible. The articles are, in fact, low-quality translations ripped off of legitimate French-language news sites, including Le Devoir, TVA and Radio-Canada."

"Click on the "about" tab on the Sherbrooke Times site, and it indicates the Times has an office at 352 Bloor Street in Toronto — the address of The National Post. It names a former Ukrainian soccer star, Ivan Koponay, as the newspaper's director, and the editor as Anne Marie Krebs — a fake journalist from the satirical news site, The Onion. Clearly, the Sherbrooke Times isn't a real news outlet."

"These sites were "created specifically to dupe readers" by trying to pass off as Quebec-based news media, he said."

"Certain articles from these fake Quebec news media also seem to have been shared by a network of Russian bots on Twitter. Some 300 accounts retweeted a Quebec Post article about Canadian athlete Marie-Hélène Pedneau, all apparently belonging to young Russian women. BuzzSumo indicates that these profiles all shared the same articles at the same time, which suggests that they are automated. What's more, all of these accounts have since been suspended by Twitter."


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/fake-news-websites-not-quebec-1.4447514

Your sources are as fake and dishonest as your arguments.
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Re: Putin to host Russia WWII parade ahead of key vote

Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:27 am

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