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ArchGuy1
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Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:33 am

This post warrants it's own thread because of the political nature of this topic. The statue of Teddy Roosevelt in front of the American Museum of Natural History in New York City is being removed due to concerns about racism and colonialism. The statue has guarded the entrance to the museum since 1950 and has become an iconic feature of New York City. Very crazy and shocking to see such a statue removed as it is not a Confederate monuement.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180975154/
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:14 am

These people are marxists and wont stop until they destroy everything and replace it with their misery.

Its as simple as that and these people will eventually find out by force if necessary to sit down and shutup.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:30 am

LOT767301ER wrote:
These people are marxists and wont stop until they destroy everything and replace it with their misery.

Its as simple as that and these people will eventually find out by force if necessary to sit down and shutup.

This is not a Confederate monuement at all and there is no reason for removing it.
Last edited by ArchGuy1 on Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:37 am

That happens if you apply current morals to historic figures.
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:49 am

seahawk wrote:
That happens if you apply current morals to historic figures.


The right has started catching onto this BS and is now flooding the likes of Yale (named after not only a slave owner but slave trader) and Stanford (founded and named after a RR robber barron whose commentary on the Chinese for example you can find on google).

Its pure stupidity and Trump is going to use all of this along with the debacle last night in DC trying to take down Andrew Jackson and defacing a church yet again in campaign ads. The longer this keeps going the longer its an optics problem for the other side.
 
Maloak33
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:10 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
These people are marxists and wont stop until they destroy everything and replace it with their misery.

Its as simple as that and these people will eventually find out by force if necessary to sit down and shutup.

This is not a Confederate monuement at all and there is no reason for removing it.


Regardless, its an old white man from history even if he did nothing wrong. :white:
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:54 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
This is not a Confederate monuement at all and there is no reason for removing it.


Maloak33 wrote:
Regardless, its an old white man from history even if he did nothing wrong.


The removal of the statue has nothing to do with Roosevelt per se, it's the way an indigenous American native and an African man are depicted in the statue that is the problem. The museum itself is the driver behind removing it.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180975154/
“Over the last few weeks, our museum community has been profoundly moved by the ever-widening movement for racial justice that has emerged after the killing of George Floyd,” Ellen V. Futter, the president of the AMNH, tells the Times. “We have watched as the attention of the world and the country has increasingly turned to statues as powerful and hurtful symbols of systemic racism. […] Simply put, the time has come to move it.”
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Aaron747
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:12 am

LOT767301ER wrote:
These people are marxists and wont stop until they destroy everything and replace it with their misery.

Its as simple as that and these people will eventually find out by force if necessary to sit down and shutup.


The museum is removing it, not marxists.

As for optics, they are only bad when observed by simpletons. Nuanced adult observers can see a lot of these statue pulldowns are done by uneducated idiots who don’t actually know what they believe in (otherwise they’d know who Grant was). No different than blue collar folks showing up to worship a non-leader who has failed to pay contractors time and again.
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:43 am

I'm so sad to see what this world is becomming.

We are entering an era where online lynch mob mentality will see more and more power and influence.

Social media has become a catalyst for ideological lynchmobs, as it is now easy to activate people around single causes.

And apparently there is so much white guilt around in various institutions, that they give in immidiately in fear of being viewed as racist if someone points a finger.

This will never stop. There will always be something for some idiot to be offended about.
Last edited by Dahlgardo on Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Maloak33
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:53 am

scbriml wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
This is not a Confederate monuement at all and there is no reason for removing it.


Maloak33 wrote:
Regardless, its an old white man from history even if he did nothing wrong.


The removal of the statue has nothing to do with Roosevelt per se, it's the way an indigenous American native and an African man are depicted in the statue that is the problem. The museum itself is the driver behind removing it.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180975154/
“Over the last few weeks, our museum community has been profoundly moved by the ever-widening movement for racial justice that has emerged after the killing of George Floyd,” Ellen V. Futter, the president of the AMNH, tells the Times. “We have watched as the attention of the world and the country has increasingly turned to statues as powerful and hurtful symbols of systemic racism. […] Simply put, the time has come to move it.”


This makes more sense now. Thanks for the input. :)
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scbriml
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:42 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
There will always be something for some idiot to be offended about.


The Smithsonian is idiotic for deciding to remove the statue?
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:53 am

scbriml wrote:
The Smithsonian is idiotic for deciding to remove the statue?


Absolutely.

It's a historical monument reflecting a bygone time, with all the good and bad things that belonged in that time.

The premise should be, that people seeing the statue would think to themselves, "interesting, this was the way some people viewed society back then. Good thing it's not like that anymore.".

But I know, today it's much more important to be virtuous and offended, than being educated.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:08 am

I think each case is unique, and of course things have taken a turn because of the murder of George Floyd, but I see nothing wrong with removing this statue. As was linked by the OP, this has been in the making for years, it's not a knee jerk reaction.

It could even make sense to put another statue of Roosevelt there, just without the other two men ! And maybe not with the countless animals he killed either...

Dahlgardo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The Smithsonian is idiotic for deciding to remove the statue?


Absolutely.

It's a historical monument reflecting a bygone time, with all the good and bad things that belonged in that time.

The premise should be, that people seeing the statue would think to themselves, "interesting, this was the way some people viewed society back then. Good thing it's not like that anymore.".

But I know, today it's much more important to be virtuous and offended, than being educated.


Well, putting the statue in a museum, one that talks about such subject preferably (colonialism), will have people thinking. When it's out on the street, it will have people feeling hurt.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:13 am

LOT767301ER wrote:
Its as simple as that and these people will eventually find out by force if necessary to sit down and shutup.


When has that ever worked ? Those colonists rebelling, how dare they defy the King of Britain ? They should sit down and shut up.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:06 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
It's a historical monument reflecting a bygone time, with all the good and bad things that belonged in that time.

The premise should be, that people seeing the statue would think to themselves, "interesting, this was the way some people viewed society back then. Good thing it's not like that anymore.".


The problem being, just as many people will view the statue and think "Good to see the white man where he belongs." I'm not personally offended by the Roosevelt statue, but, I understand why others might well be. Try viewing the statue from the perspective of a native American or African.

Put the insensitive statues inside the museum with explanations as to why they're no longer out in the open.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:09 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The Smithsonian is idiotic for deciding to remove the statue?


Absolutely.

It's a historical monument reflecting a bygone time, with all the good and bad things that belonged in that time.

The premise should be, that people seeing the statue would think to themselves, "interesting, this was the way some people viewed society back then. Good thing it's not like that anymore.".

But I know, today it's much more important to be virtuous and offended, than being educated.


Who exactly is going to a natural history Museum to get educated on colonialism?

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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:19 am

scbriml wrote:
The problem being, just as many people will view the statue and think "Good to see the white man where he belongs." I'm not personally offended by the Roosevelt statue, but, I understand why others might well be. Try viewing the statue from the perspective of a native American or African.


To me this is just a plain old white guilt statement.
Yes, bad things happend in the past, but removing things from the past will not educate anyone.

If anything, the statue is more an embarresment to "white men" than to blacks or natives.

If someone is not mentally mature enough, so they will just affirm their racist worldview from this statue, there is not much hope for such a person.
But the rest of us can actually learn something
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:22 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Who exactly is going to a natural history Museum to get educated on colonialism?

Best regards
Thomas


Yes I know, it's tough to be confronted with something unexpected that would make you think.

Good thing we have safe spaces. They should have them around museums too.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:55 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Who exactly is going to a natural history Museum to get educated on colonialism?

Best regards
Thomas


Yes I know, it's tough to be confronted with something unexpected that would make you think.


That would be the case in an ideal world.

Anyhow, generally I agree that stuff shouldn't be destroyed, but put in context. At the location where it happens to be if it is possible and makes sense, or in a museum of "how much of asses we used to be" where that makes more sense..

But removing stuff from the collective memory sort of is the American way, judging by some schools books.

Good thing we have safe spaces. They should have them around museums too.


Every time someone makes that argument with regards to heralding people that would be considered despicable by today's standards it makes me wonder: after WWII it was briefly considered to give jews a chunk of German territory to make their own country. I wonder if the same people defending statues staying in place would ridicule Jews for removing even statues of the most minor supporters of the Nazi party today?

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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:13 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The Smithsonian is idiotic for deciding to remove the statue?


Absolutely.

It's a historical monument reflecting a bygone time, with all the good and bad things that belonged in that time.

The premise should be, that people seeing the statue would think to themselves, "interesting, this was the way some people viewed society back then. Good thing it's not like that anymore.".

But I know, today it's much more important to be virtuous and offended, than being educated.

The Floyd killing says to many that it is like that still.

Dahlgardo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The problem being, just as many people will view the statue and think "Good to see the white man where he belongs." I'm not personally offended by the Roosevelt statue, but, I understand why others might well be. Try viewing the statue from the perspective of a native American or African.


To me this is just a plain old white guilt statement.
Yes, bad things happend in the past, but removing things from the past will not educate anyone.

If anything, the statue is more an embarresment to "white men" than to blacks or natives.

If someone is not mentally mature enough, so they will just affirm their racist worldview from this statue, there is not much hope for such a person.
But the rest of us can actually learn something

So you know more about what people are taking away from their interaction with the statue than the people in charge of the museum? They used the language "powerful and hurtful symbols of systemic racism" and did not use the past tense.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:27 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The Smithsonian is idiotic for deciding to remove the statue?


Absolutely.

It's a historical monument reflecting a bygone time, with all the good and bad things that belonged in that time.

The premise should be, that people seeing the statue would think to themselves, "interesting, this was the way some people viewed society back then. Good thing it's not like that anymore.".

But I know, today it's much more important to be virtuous and offended, than being educated.


You don't know what you're talking about. Nobody goes to a natural history museum for that kind of information. What you are exhibiting can easily be termed 'change outrage'.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:47 pm

In what sense is the statue of TR "Colonialist?"

In the sense that we should regret & abdicate all US territories and Puerto Rico?

Should we also try to lose WWII? Do we regret beating Hitler and the Japanese Empire? I wish protestors alone could get their wish, and join their dream world, in which the US was insignificant, and Hitler won. That's not the world I want. (This comment is regarding anti-Colonial sentiment).
Last edited by LCDFlight on Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:49 pm

scbriml wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
There will always be something for some idiot to be offended about.


The Smithsonian is idiotic for deciding to remove the statue?


Why not paint over the Sistine Chapel with something more modern? After all, it's old and outdated. Culture isn't like that anymore.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:53 pm

I suppose they'll have to do a remake of Night at the Museum

I just looked at images of the statue from various angles. I agree, its not appropriate. The native American seems to stand proud and powerful, and seems appropriate, as if he is working together with Teddy. The African American appears to be shown in a subservient manner, mostly naked with a simple cloth draped across his shoulder - his face solemn and looking down. I generally do not support removal of statues, or "rewriting" of history as some may call it. But in this case, I don't see this as appropriate for a center piece - first impression upon entering - type of statue. From a distance it is powerful - up close it is hurtful. I do want to study it more from the original artists' perspective. What was the intent behind this. Did they intend to show the three in this way to highlight their interactions in this way on purpose to show the darker side of America at that time? Or what? I do think it is important to consider the original intent.

That said, look at it from the perspective of a foreigner to America and seeing this as the first item upon entering one of our most famous museums. Is that the impression we want them to start off with? I hope they find a good place for it where it can still be studied and understood. Equally important is what they choose to replace it with.

Also I'd just like to note, I find that some of these institutions are taking advantage of the current climate to make changes - which is sort of good - but in a lot of cases, such as the Aunt Jemima case, or in this case, it was clear the parties in charge knew they should make the change but feared to do so due to backlash they may receive. That is shameful on their part as they shouldn't fear backlash when it comes to correcting past wrongs. This is more directed at the people in charge of brandings at companies than it is at the Museums and public statues and monuments - there is a subtle difference between a marketing piece vs a historical piece.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
The Floyd killing says to many that it is like that still.


Possibly, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Revelation wrote:
So you know more about what people are taking away from their interaction with the statue than the people in charge of the museum? They used the language "powerful and hurtful symbols of systemic racism" and did not use the past tense.


Again. people will get hurt and offended by anything.
The museum is not promoting racism or hate by displaying that statue.
They should instead take the opportunity to educate and raise awareness about racism.
Making claims about systemic racism today is a political statement of white guilt, and not a factual statement.

1000 different people will take 1000 different things away when they are confronted with a statue or another piece of art.
And as I said in another reply, this statue should be more embarrassing to "white men" than blacks or natives.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
Well, putting the statue in a museum, one that talks about such subject preferably (colonialism), will have people thinking. When it's out on the street, it will have people feeling hurt.

Sorry, people can't have their cake and eat it too.

We often hear how Confederate monuments belong in a museum and not in public, but what's the incentive if even museums are not safe from "review"?

The museum can add a plaque or something that goes into further detail about what the creators of the statue argued when making it and that the museum makes no further claims other than to preserve it as custodian and nothing more. But no! Even museums trigger anxiety and must be cleansed. I personally don't see anything racist about it (and I'm not White); I can see why someone may think it says "white supremacy" (Roosevelt on a horse while a Native American and Black flank on the sides) or "colonialism", but none of the options were the first impression I got when seeing the statue.

You can make the case that, maybe, the statue should be moved to a different museum (unless there's an actual link between Natural History and Teddy Roosevelt); but remove/disassemble it? Why?
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:12 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Again. people will get hurt and offended by anything.
The museum is not promoting racism or hate by displaying that statue.
They should instead take the opportunity to educate and raise awareness about racism.
Making claims about systemic racism today is a political statement of white guilt, and not a factual statement.

1000 different people will take 1000 different things away when they are confronted with a statue or another piece of art.
And as I said in another reply, this statue should be more embarrassing to "white men" than blacks or natives.

It's not about past indignities, hurts, offenses, it's still going on. That's the point. Hitler was defeated, the Nazi party was outlawed, Auchwitz was closed. Racism is till a big issue in this country, despite your statement otherwise.

einsteinboricua wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Well, putting the statue in a museum, one that talks about such subject preferably (colonialism), will have people thinking. When it's out on the street, it will have people feeling hurt.

Sorry, people can't have their cake and eat it too.

We often hear how Confederate monuments belong in a museum and not in public, but what's the incentive if even museums are not safe from "review"?

The museum can add a plaque or something that goes into further detail about what the creators of the statue argued when making it and that the museum makes no further claims other than to preserve it as custodian and nothing more. But no! Even museums trigger anxiety and must be cleansed. I personally don't see anything racist about it (and I'm not White); I can see why someone may think it says "white supremacy" (Roosevelt on a horse while a Native American and Black flank on the sides) or "colonialism", but none of the options were the first impression I got when seeing the statue.

You can make the case that, maybe, the statue should be moved to a different museum (unless there's an actual link between Natural History and Teddy Roosevelt); but remove/disassemble it? Why?

This statue is not "in" the museum, it's "on" the street. And yes, the article says the statue will be "moved".

"First impressions" may be deceiving.

Image

White man on horse with foot in air in front, eyes raised, clearly a man of action in leadership position. Native American and African in back on foot, eyes front, passive, waiting to be led.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
White man on horse with foot in air in front, eyes raised, clearly a man of action in leadership position. Native American and African in back on foot, eyes front, passive, waiting to be led.

Someone else can argue that it represents Roosevelt as an effective president who had support from Native Americans and Blacks, and given that Roosevelt has usually been ranked among the top 10 presidents (usually in the top 5 as well), it wouldn't be a farfetched argument either.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:51 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Revelation wrote:
White man on horse with foot in air in front, eyes raised, clearly a man of action in leadership position. Native American and African in back on foot, eyes front, passive, waiting to be led.

Someone else can argue that it represents Roosevelt as an effective president who had support from Native Americans and Blacks, and given that Roosevelt has usually been ranked among the top 10 presidents (usually in the top 5 as well), it wouldn't be a farfetched argument either.


I think folks should read my assessment above. I think I've got it quite right. I get the feeling that the Native American is more of a partner with Roosevelt, but the African American is looking down, more solemn. Definitely has a different tone to his appearance than the Native American. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always had the impression that Roosevelt had a good relationship with Native Americans. He was a major conservationist - which is why it makes sense that he is in front of the natural history museum, standing proudly protecting our natural environment. (No doubt someone will try to argue against this saying that Teddy was an avid hunter etc...)
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:26 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The Floyd killing says to many that it is like that still.


Possibly, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Revelation wrote:
So you know more about what people are taking away from their interaction with the statue than the people in charge of the museum? They used the language "powerful and hurtful symbols of systemic racism" and did not use the past tense.


Again. people will get hurt and offended by anything.
The museum is not promoting racism or hate by displaying that statue.
They should instead take the opportunity to educate and raise awareness about racism.
Making claims about systemic racism today is a political statement of white guilt, and not a factual statement.

1000 different people will take 1000 different things away when they are confronted with a statue or another piece of art.
And as I said in another reply, this statue should be more embarrassing to "white men" than blacks or natives.


A wise and satirical man once said the logical conclusion of this reasoning is as follows:

I'm concerned Germans will forget about the Holocaust so I'm pleading with Angela Merkel to start erecting beautiful statues of Hitler in public squares across Germany.

If Germans don't see statues of Hitler every day, they will forget about him and are doomed to repeat history.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:30 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
To me this is just a plain old white guilt statement.
Yes, bad things happend in the past, but removing things from the past will not educate anyone.


It's not removing anything from the past, it's removing something from the present that glorifies the bad things in the past.

No, you can't change the past and you certainly shouldn't teach revisionist history in schools - tell the truth, warts and all. However, it's 155 years since slavery was abolished in America and the education system has so far failed miserably to eradicate inequalities for most black Americans. I don't see how an offensive statue is providing the education that schooling has failed to deliver.

It's certainly not my position to tell native or black Americans that they shouldn't be offended by symbols from the past, but I think they have every right to have their voice heard and action taken where appropriate. In this specific case, the museum itself has decided the statue is a "powerful and hurtful symbol of systemic racism".

Ironically, Roosevelt himself said "The world does not need statues, relics of another age, that reflect neither the values of the person they intend to honor nor the values of equality and justice."
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:41 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
A wise and satirical man once said the logical conclusion of this reasoning is as follows:

I'm concerned Germans will forget about the Holocaust so I'm pleading with Angela Merkel to start erecting beautiful statues of Hitler in public squares across Germany.

If Germans don't see statues of Hitler every day, they will forget about him and are doomed to repeat history.

The problem isn't the wise satirical man, the problem is the young Black or Native American kid walking down the public street in front of the museum and getting a message from the statue that society is telling me I'm meant to be a step behind the White and be ready to take commands.
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Aaron747
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
A wise and satirical man once said the logical conclusion of this reasoning is as follows:

I'm concerned Germans will forget about the Holocaust so I'm pleading with Angela Merkel to start erecting beautiful statues of Hitler in public squares across Germany.

If Germans don't see statues of Hitler every day, they will forget about him and are doomed to repeat history.

The problem isn't the wise satirical man, the problem is the young Black or Native American kid walking down the public street in front of the museum and getting a message from the statue that society is telling me I'm meant to be a step behind the White and be ready to take commands.


Granted, there is no reason for that kind of messaging. The other poster is trying to claim without ‘embarrassing’ statues, history and perspective cannot be learned - my satirical reference was just to illustrate what a stupid canard that is.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:54 pm

Even as a believer from the major religious tradition in the US, I think we need to look at societal conflicts and consider what evolutionary customs and ethics have to offer as perspective and guidance. Powerful men (yes, men) dominated women and less powerful men. Powerful ethnics dominated, replaced, killed, and enslaved less powerful ethnics. Perhaps the only problem with Tennyson's "red in tooth and claw" is that it understates the violence that is intrinsic to human nature and culture. Some of us think we can surmount this evolutionary violence, I think we can and should take as many edges off it as we can. It may be a losing battle. But decent people can and must. Naive people need to realize how much bad forces from evolution dominate society. Even dominate unthinking powerful men. Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive and did much to make the US a better society. Our inspiration from him should be that we need to continue and do better. I am thus inspired by the Natural Museum of History, one of my favorite institutions. I hope the statue finds a good place in its hallowed hallways.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:33 pm

scbriml wrote:
It's not removing anything from the past, it's removing something from the present that glorifies the bad things in the past.

You'd be going down a rabbit hole with this though.

There are certain items from the past that should never be revered in the present, especially when examining the circumstances that gave rise to it in the first place. This is why statues of Confederate figures are controversial: not only do they stand for a cause that's anti-American, they also came up as symbols of resistance during times when civil rights were being granted. This is why Nazis are not given monuments and whatever sites remain turned into memorials for their victims.

Many items may have questionable origins (or origins that were clearly controversial, but not enough to warrant action...see Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben). And then there are others that were never controversial until someone made an observation and now it's awful.

When this statue came up, what was the intent, what does it represent, and did it create controversy?
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Dieuwer
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
Again. people will get hurt and offended by anything.
The museum is not promoting racism or hate by displaying that statue.
They should instead take the opportunity to educate and raise awareness about racism.
Making claims about systemic racism today is a political statement of white guilt, and not a factual statement.

1000 different people will take 1000 different things away when they are confronted with a statue or another piece of art.
And as I said in another reply, this statue should be more embarrassing to "white men" than blacks or natives.

It's not about past indignities, hurts, offenses, it's still going on. That's the point. Hitler was defeated, the Nazi party was outlawed, Auchwitz was closed. Racism is till a big issue in this country, despite your statement otherwise.

einsteinboricua wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Well, putting the statue in a museum, one that talks about such subject preferably (colonialism), will have people thinking. When it's out on the street, it will have people feeling hurt.

Sorry, people can't have their cake and eat it too.

We often hear how Confederate monuments belong in a museum and not in public, but what's the incentive if even museums are not safe from "review"?

The museum can add a plaque or something that goes into further detail about what the creators of the statue argued when making it and that the museum makes no further claims other than to preserve it as custodian and nothing more. But no! Even museums trigger anxiety and must be cleansed. I personally don't see anything racist about it (and I'm not White); I can see why someone may think it says "white supremacy" (Roosevelt on a horse while a Native American and Black flank on the sides) or "colonialism", but none of the options were the first impression I got when seeing the statue.

You can make the case that, maybe, the statue should be moved to a different museum (unless there's an actual link between Natural History and Teddy Roosevelt); but remove/disassemble it? Why?

This statue is not "in" the museum, it's "on" the street. And yes, the article says the statue will be "moved".

"First impressions" may be deceiving.

Image

White man on horse with foot in air in front, eyes raised, clearly a man of action in leadership position. Native American and African in back on foot, eyes front, passive, waiting to be led.


It would be nicer to have a statue of all three men standing on equal footing with their arms around each others' shoulders.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:58 pm

Dieuwer wrote:


It would be nicer to have a statue of all three men standing on equal footing with their arms around each others' shoulders.



I appreciate the sentiment, but that also doesn't make historical sense either.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
White man on horse with foot in air in front, eyes raised, clearly a man of action in leadership position. Native American and African in back on foot, eyes front, passive, waiting to be led.


I see an American president on a horse. He was a leader, which the statue intentionally conveys. If it were Obama on a horse, I think it would be the same message. He is followed by 2 figures who represent historical people who toiled on this land. The African man for 300+ years, and the Native American man for 10,000 years. Are they subservient, no; they don't even live in the same time as TR. They are historical figures. They also could have included European characters from the Middle Ages following TR as well.

There is definitely some cultural appropriation going on, but it's hard to tell stories about human beings without doing that.

It's a thought-provoking statue. Inequality was something that did occur and still does. Does the statue celebrate inequality, that is in the eye of the beholder. I believe it portrays a sentiment from US history, taming the "wilderness," while also celebrating that wilderness, as TR famously did. It is not meant to represent the political climate of 2020's New York.
Last edited by LCDFlight on Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:02 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
It would be nicer to have a statue of all three men standing on equal footing with their arms around each others' shoulders.

Ah, but then that is whitewashing and it's still unacceptable, because it would be impossible to think that Roosevelt, Native Americans, and Blacks were on equal footing to begin with, and it's a futile attempt to make it seem like everyone got along back then.

I don't disagree with the concept, but just playing the role of the woke SJW that will still demand for the statue to be removed because it's not accurate.
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
These people are marxists and wont stop until they destroy everything and replace it with their misery.

Its as simple as that and these people will eventually find out by force if necessary to sit down and shutup.


The museum is removing it, not marxists.

As for optics, they are only bad when observed by simpletons. Nuanced adult observers can see a lot of these statue pulldowns are done by uneducated idiots who don’t actually know what they believe in (otherwise they’d know who Grant was). No different than blue collar folks showing up to worship a non-leader who has failed to pay contractors time and again.

Which basically means someone needs to start a petition to Her Majesty to re-take former colonies under her arm as there are no more competent adults left there...
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:28 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
These people are marxists and wont stop until they destroy everything and replace it with their misery.

Its as simple as that and these people will eventually find out by force if necessary to sit down and shutup.

This is not a Confederate monuement at all and there is no reason for removing it.


He is on his horse and walking behind him is a Native American and what seems to be a slave....

So no, its not the statue of him in isolation, its the supporting cast.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:08 pm

“Look, the people who are basically tearing down statues, trying to make a statement are basically borderline anarchists, the way I look at it. They really have no agenda other than the idea we’re going to topple a statue. It’s not going to close the wealth gap. It’s not going to give a kid whose parents can’t afford college money to go to college. It’s not going to close the labor gap between what White workers are paid and what Black workers are paid. And it’s not going to take people off welfare or food stamps.”

Robert Johnson, Founder of BET

Lots of people are getting sick of the left wing virtue signaling.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:07 pm

cairns wrote:
“Look, the people who are basically tearing down statues, trying to make a statement are basically borderline anarchists, the way I look at it. They really have no agenda other than the idea we’re going to topple a statue. It’s not going to close the wealth gap. It’s not going to give a kid whose parents can’t afford college money to go to college. It’s not going to close the labor gap between what White workers are paid and what Black workers are paid. And it’s not going to take people off welfare or food stamps.”

Robert Johnson, Founder of BET

Lots of people are getting sick of the left wing virtue signaling.

People said sitting in the front of the bus or at the counter at Woolworth's wouldn't change anything either.
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ltbewr
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:00 pm

While I understand the emotions that encourage some in mobs to vandalize, tear down and damage statues of persons with offensive historical connections in modern times and reasons for them being put up,.it is still wrong. Problem is that governments, including Trump, refuse to take action to remove them despite repeated and reasonable calls for their removal. Some like the Museum of Natural History, are realizing due to public attention that they have a responsibility to remove them to someplace where they can be presented in context. Hopefully, governments and private organizations that have these offensive monuments will proceed promptly to remove or where not practical, to make sure all know of the historical context of them and are offensive to many.

One point I would like to make is that all these statues are works of art and that sometimes art can be offensive but it shouldn't be destroyed.

I would also note that even more modern public art memorials often had controversy and political pressure was placed to appease various influential groups. The Vietnam War Memorial in DC had a lot of critics with its into the ground design. Two traditional statues had to be put up, one of 3 soldiers and of woman solders/nurses to appease critics. The 'Wall' has become a very well respected work of art and memorial over time. 9/11 memorial in NYC at the WTC site and others in the USA have had their politicized issues too.
 
cairns
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:21 am

The Taliban destroyed a lot of history. The left wing mimics them. Tearing down statues of Grant and other abolitionists only shows how stupid they are.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:09 am

Taliban translates to “student”, so there’s precedent here.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:49 am

cairns wrote:
The Taliban destroyed a lot of history. The left wing mimics them. Tearing down statues of Grant and other abolitionists only shows how stupid they are.


Who, exactly, is "the left wing"?

Are they more or less stupid that people who claim statues of slavers and the confederate flag are "our heritage" and not in the slightest bit offensive?
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:24 am

LCDFlight wrote:
In what sense is the statue of TR "Colonialist?"

In the sense that we should regret & abdicate all US territories and Puerto Rico?

Should we also try to lose WWII? Do we regret beating Hitler and the Japanese Empire? I wish protestors alone could get their wish, and join their dream world, in which the US was insignificant, and Hitler won. That's not the world I want. (This comment is regarding anti-Colonial sentiment).


Despite the US finger wagging for it's entire existence about those terrible Europeans and their colonies, they were no slouches at it either, you said it, 'territories', same thing, different word.
Add in the Philippines and others in that region, where they swapped Spanish rulers for US ones. Arguably Hawaii too, Cuba effectively, (even now a notorious US enclave exists there, notorious in more recent times, Camp X-Ray, a 21st Century Devils Island - which was a French colony), plus others in that region, at least via landings and gunboat diplomacy.
There was actually a what would now be called a 'counter insurgency' campaign in the Philippines in the 1900's.

The first line of the US Marine Corps song is geographically revealing too.
 
cairns
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:18 pm

A statue of Grant is offensive? And defacing the Lincoln memorial isn't? Lots of stupid going on.
 
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Re: Teddy Roosevelt Statue at American Museum of Natural History to be Removed

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:59 pm

cairns wrote:
A statue of Grant is offensive? And defacing the Lincoln memorial isn't? Lots of stupid going on.



Why are they not different to you? Grant was President during one of the largest set of Wars against the Native American's, and was also President during an economic downturn that caused rampant racism against Chinese immigrants in California.
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