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einsteinboricua
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:31 pm

apodino wrote:
What kind of message does that send to the people already on this planet who were given that chance? I know lots of people who have had some issues since birth. That doesn't mean they are any less worthy of living than you or I are. (I do agree with you on the military spending, its gotten out of control)

It means that their parents were up to the task (whether they regret it with many sacrifices made or thought it was worth it is irrelevant). As a kid I remember looking down on kids with Down Syndrome (as an example), and it wasn't because I was encouraged, but more because of lack of guidance. Someone is different, does not understand what I mean, and even drools under normal conditions...as a grown up I see that it's something out of their control...but I shudder to think that, while I merely looked away, there may have been others who were bullies who had no problem mocking or even physically abusing these kids. I certainly would not want a kid of mine to go through something like that.

Then there's the parental instinct to believe that because a kid is 7 years old they should hang with 7 year olds (in other words, pretend that the conditions does not hinder them at all). I DON'T want to be that kind of parent, torn between allowing a child to live as if they were a normal 7 year old or prevent them from partaking in other activities with other 7 year olds because mentally they're behind.

Moot anyway since I have no desire to have children, but if I ever had a change of heart, this would be something I'd keep in mind. I'm not looking for the perfect kid or one that is a genetic assembly of what I think should be great. I just recognize that I would not be able to handle the challenge that comes with raising a child with a birth defect or genetic conditions that will impede their full development.
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seb146
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:40 pm

Aesma wrote:
stl07 wrote:
This law was written by a Democrat (and black and women :) ) for all you yelling death to the GOP (although I myself am not opposed to that). Also, for those of you talking with apodino, part of being pro-choice means that you CHOOSE. So if apodino CHOOSES life, good on him. He is not telling you to not abort your child, he is simply saying he doesn't want to kill his.


No.

He wants the choice to be illegal. He's anti-choice.


I agree. Evangelicals want all abortions banned period. If a person wants for themselves to never ever have an abortion, they have made a choice. But to decide for the entire nation is not "pro choice".
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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NWAESC
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:46 pm

casinterest wrote:
When will the "Right to Life" folks start concentrating their money on paying for women's health care and helping with living expenses instead of lobbying for judge choices and bill writings that are still bound by a very real constitution that protects personal rights/


Probably never, unfortunately.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:55 pm

seb146 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
stl07 wrote:
This law was written by a Democrat (and black and women :) ) for all you yelling death to the GOP (although I myself am not opposed to that). Also, for those of you talking with apodino, part of being pro-choice means that you CHOOSE. So if apodino CHOOSES life, good on him. He is not telling you to not abort your child, he is simply saying he doesn't want to kill his.


No.

He wants the choice to be illegal. He's anti-choice.


I agree. Evangelicals want all abortions banned period. If a person wants for themselves to never ever have an abortion, they have made a choice. But to decide for the entire nation is not "pro choice".



Evangelicals want to "save" everyone. Some people do not want to be "saved" for a 10% cut, and the evangelical's are losing their own base due to this lack of understanding.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:01 pm

Aesma wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Trump had the house and the senate for two years, why wasn't abortion banned ? Sure, it would have probably been struck down by the SCOTUS, but so what, that didn't stop him for other stuff.

Bush was a born again nut, why didn't he ban abortion ?

It's a state issue bar for the supposed constitutional right of abortion. A president can do nothing about it. Just as it isn't an issue of the EU but of it's members i.e.

While I do support abortion the SCOTUS is extremely activistic from an European perspective. Most European states allow for abortion by democratic decision, but not one of them ever had a court that dared to be as creative to read a right to abortion in a right to privacy. Any judge being so activistic would be frowned upon: if your ambition is in making policy you should become a politician and not a judge.


So a president can't campaign on and support an amendment to the constitution ? Lawmakers can't vote on it ?


Plus of course the itzy ditzy bit of human rights not being an issue handled by the EU, but fall under the European Convention of human rights, and hence are an ECHR topic. And that court is absolutely cried over as being "activist" all the time. And it had in deed ruled against Poland and Ireland on abortions. I am not aware they ever ruled in favour of restrictions actually.

Getting a case to that court is however more difficult than getting to the supreme court, so this just may take a while.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:12 pm

NWAESC wrote:
casinterest wrote:
When will the "Right to Life" folks start concentrating their money on paying for women's health care and helping with living expenses instead of lobbying for judge choices and bill writings that are still bound by a very real constitution that protects personal rights/


Probably never, unfortunately.


Probably right, but it still would make more sense to give women options to make having a baby more wanted. There are real reasons for having abortions, and unfortunately cost is one of them. Not all reasons can be covered, but helping women through pregnancies would be a major step in the right direction.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:20 pm

apodino wrote:
I am not interested in controlling anyone. I personally believe that Abortion actually gives women less control rather than more. There are lots of Horny men out there who know that if they impregnate a woman she can always get an abortion. Thus it becomes much much easier for them to pressure women into Sex. Human Trafficking is another big problem. Abortion makes this horrific crime much much easier to get away with. I can go on.


An alternative point of view is that abortion allows women the freedom to not suffer eternal consequences of being the victim of a sexual attack. Sexual violence is rarely about reproduction, and the majority of the time, it's not even about sex. It's about power - the desire for one human to exert intimate power over another. You're taking the point of view of "well, there's a bunch of shitty evil men out there that do bad things, but in case one happens to make you a victim, good luck taking care of that child the rest of your life!"

Here's an idea I'll bet you might like - keep abortion quasi-legal (but optional), but instead of punishing the woman for doing it, you punish the father who impregnated her. That will cause unwanted pregnancies to drop like a boulder.

einsteinboricua wrote:
Women don't go through an abortion because they want to; they go through it because they're not ready to be parents and there's barely any support for them if they choose to continue. You have the very late stages of abortion as well, which I also think should be allowed: if I had a baby that will have some form of birth defect that will not let them enjoy life and will require far more resources than a typical child, I would much rather terminate it than have to beg agencies for support. Some states are good about helping out, but there's the risk that at the federal level, the funds may be gutted and the state may end up canceling the program as well (because it's better to buy more F35s...freedom and all).


Correct - I have yet to read an account from a woman who had an abortion who said it was the easiest and greatest decision of her life. All of them acknowledge that it's a difficult choice, and many regret it later in life. But we don't punish people for regrettable unchangeable decisions now, do we? Or else there would be a whole lot of people with tattoos who would be in trouble.

Apodino wrote:
I agree that there is very little support and this is an issue that worries me deeply. You mention babies with birth defects. What kind of message does that send to the people already on this planet who were given that chance? I know lots of people who have had some issues since birth. That doesn't mean they are any less worthy of living than you or I are. (I do agree with you on the military spending, its gotten out of control)


I will acknowledge that aborting babies with forecastable birth defects is a huge ethical and legal gray area, and I'm not even going to pretend to have the right answer for that one. How would one decide what condition is worth living with and what condition isn't? I would like to error on the side of freedom of choice, but maybe you could write a law stating that if potential birth defects are the motivating factor for abortion, solicit 3 doctors' written opinions concurring that they think abortion is the right decision for this situation. But again, my opinion on that individual aspect could easily be swayed.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:22 pm

casinterest wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
casinterest wrote:
When will the "Right to Life" folks start concentrating their money on paying for women's health care and helping with living expenses instead of lobbying for judge choices and bill writings that are still bound by a very real constitution that protects personal rights/


Probably never, unfortunately.


Probably right, but it still would make more sense to give women options to make having a baby more wanted. There are real reasons for having abortions, and unfortunately cost is one of them. Not all reasons can be covered, but helping women through pregnancies would be a major step in the right direction.


In Germany a woman needs a counselling session, Schwangerschaftskonfliktberatung (~Pregnancy conflict counselling) before getting an abortion.. and since that is also where they can get information about what help they can get where, its actually a requirement for women to learn about those, not every women goes on to have one.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
apodino
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
stl07 wrote:
This law was written by a Democrat (and black and women :) ) for all you yelling death to the GOP (although I myself am not opposed to that). Also, for those of you talking with apodino, part of being pro-choice means that you CHOOSE. So if apodino CHOOSES life, good on him. He is not telling you to not abort your child, he is simply saying he doesn't want to kill his.


No.

He wants the choice to be illegal. He's anti-choice.

Let me make one thing clear. I am under no delusion that Abortion will be illegal anytime soon, and I also believe that the absolute wrong approach to this is to try to court stack in order to get favorable rulings. (Because what inevitably happens is if a court ruling dramatically changes the landscape of issues such as Abortion, you get a lot of unintended consequences that end up harming society. Citizens United is the best example) Another thing I question is some of the tactics used by those against abortion. Demonizing women who have had abortions, not to mention torching abortion clinics and shooting up doctors who provide abortions is not the right way to handle anything, and it is not going to bring people over to your side. I have no doubt in my mind that a far better approach is to be more sympathetic to women who might have had abortions and regret it. Also you have to work to reduce unintended pregnancies, and also as everyone on here says, you cannot just stop caring for these children after they are born. You have to provide safety nets and stuff for these women even after the child is born, including, but not limited to, paid child care, paid maternal leave, single payer health care, and access to a good education for the child. Because at the political level, it is mainly Republicans who are pro-life and Democrats who are pro-choice, and Republicans are generally against all the things I mention for fiscal reasons, there is the illusion among many out there that if you are pro-life, you are also against all the things that I mention. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, about 20 percent of people who are registered Democrats also identify as pro-life.(Including the woman who wrote the law that was struck down) If the mainstream democrats were more welcoming of this group into the party, you would be able to pass a lot more of the progressive ideas I mention, such as single payer healthcare, paid child care, paid maternity leave, etc. I am also going to point out that you are seeing a surge of latino voters getting involved in the process. Latino's are a demographic that tend to favor Democrats. I don't want to bring religion into this, but Latino voters are largely Catholic, and I would argue that this is a much bigger issue among Catholics than other denominations.

That being said, one other thing I want to mention is the role of our for profit health care system in all of this. Abortion is a very lucrative business financially. People that provide it make a lot of money, and naturally they want to protect that money. This is why they lobbied against a parental notification bill that just passed in Florida. (Which should be a no brainer in my opinion.) In fact, when underage girls come to a clinic such as Planned Parenthood for an abortion, they will provide the abortion, but look the other way on other things. Mainly that unless the pregnancy was the result of two teenage lovebirds, what you have with a pregnant teenage girl is proof of Statutory Rape. But this never gets reported to the authorities. And the pervs who capitalize on this continue to victimize other vulnerable girls. (I know Planned Parenthood is technically a non-profit, but their leadership runs it with the mindset of a for profit)

tommy1808 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

The OT commands abortions to be performed, and makes no fuzz about killing pregnant women, children or newborn babies ... heck god himself slow killed a new born instead of having King David stoned for murder. Different from slavery, that is absolutely supported by the Bible, there isn´t support for the "pro-life" stance.

best regards
Thomas

It’s obvious why both the old and New Testament have the content they do and it’s that those were the prevailing morals at the time, some of those are still acceptable and some not, it isn’t making morals, it’s following and so shouldn’t be used as a guide to moral behaviour.


Actually..... if you randomly pick one of the 600+ commandments and follow them, you are quite likely to end up in prison....

Back on the topic however Apodino hasn’t justified why I should be legally compelled to give my blood to someone else, my guess is that he’s already too worn out from all the gymnastics that’s had to be done already.


and you very likely won´t..... and why stop with blood? Why not kidney, bone marrow and such, and of course mandatory, no-opt out, organ donation after death. Salvaging anything usable from a carcass has exactly zero health downside for the spare part shop after all, and not having a will, being dead and all ..... that has to come a long time before anyone nags about abortions.

best regards
Thomas

My response to that is this. Abortion actually murders a fetus. The abortionist tools literally stab the fetus in the skull. If the woman doesn't want to use her body to carry the baby, at least protect the life of the baby after its removed from the Uterus. I know this may be impossible in some cases, but I believe that the attempt should be made to do so. I am an organ donor myself and I want my organs to be used to save lives after death. One issue I see here is if you tried to mandate that, you would get a lawsuit from Jehovah's Witnesses on first amendment grounds, that they would probably win because of the relgious argument. I would also argue that not giving blood is not murder. A person may die if they don't get blood, but the reason that they died isn't because they didn't get blood, its because of the disease that led to that in the first place. In the case of Abortion, the abortionist literally kills the Fetus with his tools. That is not happening in the other cases you illustrate. That being said, I would encourage everyone to give blood and be an organ donor, and I also believe that the ban on Gays giving blood needs to be lifted. There is no rationale for it at all.
 
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:31 pm

Look, Apodino is not the "enemy" nor disingenuous nor just wanting to control women nor a fool for his thinking and beliefs on abortion. We are all different and as long as we are free to vote or do as we believe I am OK with that. I support that.

To all those here who say "it's a lump of cells" (it is), "they have no ability to live and function outside of the mother" (true *currently), "they are valueless" (not true to many), "it is the woman's body and decision (true, it always has been) etc.

To everyone I would say/ask:
Have you ever been or been with a pregnant person/partner and felt that belly and thought of the being that is slowly inexorably being built cell by cell inside?
Have you ever sat in the joy and wonder of it all?
Have you even been in fear that something might go wrong or some harm might come to this thing that is growing inside?
Have you ever felt the "bump" (even a "non-viable") that is caused by the fetus that the woman creates in her body?
Have you ever experienced the utter happiness and terror of thinking of what was coming, what was going to change a life, yours or others completely?
Have you ever experienced the horror, devastation and loss in your heart and soul (if you are of that belief) when such a life/fetus/baby/whatever, is stilled and lost to your world forever?
Have you ever experienced the complete joy of seeing a baby born, as it leaves the mothers womb and enters your or others lives to be loved and cared for?

Have you?

These are not empty or wasted moments and experiences. These inform our and others thinking and desires and wants and hopes. They are real. This isn't being "uniformed" or being stupid in your thinking. This isn't wanting to oppress others and force people into something. It is so much more.

I have sat there next to my spouse and been in fear as we learn if our child will be healthy or has an issue. I have been there scared something might happen. I have always thought, and still do, that abortion is an important option and should be done as needed and that it is ultimately the woman's choice on the matter. I have also thrown that out the window when it was a future child of my family and could not imagine how I could do/support any action that might harm the future potential child, no matter how tough things might be. This is real. This is real life. This is love, passion, pain, wonder, the very best of what humans are.

This is not easy or simple or absolute.

And yes I do fully believe and support that it is the woman's body and therefore must ultimately be her choice. But I do not say that lightly or think it is easy. If there is a life I love involved I will fight as I can to help and hopefully support allowing a life to be created. I don't "support" abortion. I do think it must always be available (at some level, with appropriate conditions) for those that need it and seek it. But it is not just a flippant "check the box" or "I am right" decision. It is hard fought and with care and love that I decide. And I do not pretend for a moment to speak for everyone else because it is the ultimate "personal decision" that anyone can make. And I cannot speak for others.

I will vote for what I think is best and express my thinking and desire with respect and care for those I am speaking with. The laws will hopefully reflect that. And I will note that the truth is the laws do reflect that and allow potential life, a fetus, within the legal conditions, to be terminated. Abortion is not banned and likely never will be, at least nationwide. And women will always be able to abort if they absolutely wish to, no matter what is placed in their way. But I will not condemn someone that wishes and works for something different.

And finally there are factions on both sides that are brutal and uncaring and will enforce their will without thinking or care for others. I try to not be one of those.

/soapbox
Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
apodino
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:37 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
And since the PRC is forced sterilizing women and aborting their fetusses, and had forced abortions for decades, any pro lifer that ever bought any product "made in the PRC" is a hypocrite anyways.

best regards
Thomas

Trust me, I have no love for the PRC and if I could avoid buying any products made in China I would. What they do to their people is in my opinion brutal and inhumane. The problem is Wall Street has sold us out to China so much, that it almost impossible to avoid buying Chinese made products. And that is a failure of everyone in Government the past two decades.
 
tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:44 pm

apodino wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
And since the PRC is forced sterilizing women and aborting their fetusses, and had forced abortions for decades, any pro lifer that ever bought any product "made in the PRC" is a hypocrite anyways.

best regards
Thomas

Trust me, I have no love for the PRC and if I could avoid buying any products made in China I would.


I haven't been buying made in PRC stuff in a long time, and even my products are "PRC free" for anything but cent articles since 2013. And I am in IT no less.

Five years ago some stuff was really hard to find made elsewhere, but that is long gone. If you buy a new android phone, unless you buy a Chinese brand, you essentially can't get one from there anymore for example, and an overwhelming majority of companies either was or was planning to divest from the PRC even before Corona. China isn't cheap anymore, but still desperately needs those lower tech jobs. Perfect time to push a boycott.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:49 pm

Tugger wrote:

To all those here who say "it's a lump of cells" (it is), "they have no ability to live and function outside of the mother" (true *currently), "they are valueless" (not true to many), "it is the woman's body and decision (true, it always has been) etc.

To everyone I would say/ask:
Have you ever been or been with a pregnant person/partner and felt that belly and thought of the being that is slowly inexorably being built cell by cell inside?
Have you ever sat in the joy and wonder of it all?
Have you even been in fear that something might go wrong or some harm might come to this thing that is growing inside?
Have you ever felt the "bump" (even a "non-viable") that is caused by the fetus that the woman creates in her body?
Have you ever experienced the utter happiness and terror of thinking of what was coming, what was going to change a life, yours or others completely?
Have you ever experienced the horror, devastation and loss in your heart and soul (if you are of that belief) when such a life/fetus/baby/whatever, is stilled and lost to your world forever?
Have you ever experienced the complete joy of seeing a baby born, as it leaves the mothers womb and enters your or others lives to be loved and cared for?

Have you?

These are not empty or wasted moments and experiences. These inform our and others thinking and desires and wants and hopes. They are real. This isn't being "uniformed" or being stupid in your thinking. This isn't wanting to oppress others and force people into something. It is so much more.

I have sat there next to my spouse and been in fear as we learn if our child will be healthy or has an issue. I have been there scared something might happen. I have always thought, and still do, that abortion is an important option and should be done as needed and that it is ultimately the woman's choice on the matter. I have also thrown that out the window when it was a future child of my family and could not imagine how I could do/support any action that might harm the future potential child, not matter how tough things might be. This is real. This is real life. This is love, passion, pain, wonder, the very best of what humans are.


Tugg


These are all great for Expecting parents that want to have a baby. I have had all those experiences and it was fun and exciting and scary to go through, and my children have brought great joy to us, and not for a minute did we consider the alternative.


However i have sat with people that have had the following problems.

1. Has Substance Abuse issues?
2. Has Mental disorders?
3. Has financial issues
4. Is a victim of horrible sexual abuse?
5. Is in an abusive relationship or no relationship?
6. Is too young or too hold?
7 is already taking care of multiple children and another may put her over extended?
8 Is unwilling to take care of a child with severe needs?


All of these items are the counter argument, and while there are many reasons for the above , it still remains with each woman to make the choice to carry that embryo to a stage where it can be loved and cared for.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:03 pm

apodino wrote:
The abortionist tools literally stab the fetus in the skull.


I call BS on that. Most abortions, 2/3 in the US, are performed before the 8th week. So no skull to stab. By far most abortions, 91% in the US, are performed before week 13, and up to week 14 that almost always means chemically induced, no stabbing, or suction/vacuum aspiration, again no stabbing.

Soooooo... you are against 1 or 2% of abortions?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
Tugger wrote:

To all those here who say "it's a lump of cells" (it is), "they have no ability to live and function outside of the mother" (true *currently), "they are valueless" (not true to many), "it is the woman's body and decision (true, it always has been) etc.

To everyone I would say/ask:
Have you ever been or been with a pregnant person/partner and felt that belly and thought of the being that is slowly inexorably being built cell by cell inside?
Have you ever sat in the joy and wonder of it all?
Have you even been in fear that something might go wrong or some harm might come to this thing that is growing inside?
Have you ever felt the "bump" (even a "non-viable") that is caused by the fetus that the woman creates in her body?
Have you ever experienced the utter happiness and terror of thinking of what was coming, what was going to change a life, yours or others completely?
Have you ever experienced the horror, devastation and loss in your heart and soul (if you are of that belief) when such a life/fetus/baby/whatever, is stilled and lost to your world forever?
Have you ever experienced the complete joy of seeing a baby born, as it leaves the mothers womb and enters your or others lives to be loved and cared for?

Have you?

These are not empty or wasted moments and experiences. These inform our and others thinking and desires and wants and hopes. They are real. This isn't being "uniformed" or being stupid in your thinking. This isn't wanting to oppress others and force people into something. It is so much more.

I have sat there next to my spouse and been in fear as we learn if our child will be healthy or has an issue. I have been there scared something might happen. I have always thought, and still do, that abortion is an important option and should be done as needed and that it is ultimately the woman's choice on the matter. I have also thrown that out the window when it was a future child of my family and could not imagine how I could do/support any action that might harm the future potential child, not matter how tough things might be. This is real. This is real life. This is love, passion, pain, wonder, the very best of what humans are.


Tugg


These are all great for Expecting parents that want to have a baby. I have had all those experiences and it was fun and exciting and scary to go through, and my children have brought great joy to us, and not for a minute did we consider the alternative.


However i have sat with people that have had the following problems.

1. Has Substance Abuse issues?
2. Has Mental disorders?
3. Has financial issues
4. Is a victim of horrible sexual abuse?
5. Is in an abusive relationship or no relationship?
6. Is too young or too hold?
7 is already taking care of multiple children and another may put her over extended?
8 Is unwilling to take care of a child with severe needs?


All of these items are the counter argument, and while there are many reasons for the above , it still remains with each woman to make the choice to carry that embryo to a stage where it can be loved and cared for.

I don't deny any of that. It is as real as any other example that can be offered. There are millions of reasons why people should not have a child and for that there are also myriad ways to prevent anything from even beginning. But that isn't the argument ultimately, I am simply saying there are many reasons why people hold the ideals and values they hold. They are all powerful when dealing with children and their lives.

What I am saying is we need to stay respectful of others reasoning and not reject it out of hand, out of habit. Some people earn the derision they end up being treated with but we should not start out that way. We should not make foes of people just because they have values that are differently from ours, even with something so fundamental. And as far as I can see, Apodino has not earned such and has stayed respectful. To me respect earns respect.

I will note that Aesma noted, in France abortion is available up to 12 weeks. In the USA suggesting that as a limit is treated with contempt and rejected by by many outright. Why is there such outrage here when such is considered?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_France

This is not an "easy" discussion. We should all encourage and value reasoned discussion. That is the point I was trying to make.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:15 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
apodino wrote:
The abortionist tools literally stab the fetus in the skull.


I call BS on that. Most abortions, 2/3 in the US, are performed before the 8th week. So no skull to stab. By far most abortions, 91% in the US, are performed before week 13, and up to week 14 that almost always means chemically induced, no stabbing, or suction/vacuum aspiration, again no stabbing.

Soooooo... you are against 1 or 2% of abortions?

Best regards
Thomas

Tommy, if I am correct you are German? If so do you agree with German law on Abortion?
Abortion in Germany is illegal under Section 218 of the German criminal code but simultaneously decriminalized under Section 218a of the German criminal code called Exception to liability for abortion,[1][2] in the first trimester upon condition of mandatory counseling, and is also permitted later in pregnancy in cases of medical necessity. In both cases, a waiting period of three days is required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

Any laws such as these are fought in the USA. Some states would absolutely implement such limits and requirements if allowed. If opposed to the German law are you fighting for to improve the women's right to terminate?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:28 pm

Tugger wrote:
I will note that Aesma noted, in France abortion is available up to 12 weeks. In the USA suggesting that as a limit is treated with contempt and rejected by by many outright. Why is there such outrage here when such is considered?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_France


Because access to abortion is very easy, paid for by the health insurance and trying to stop a woman from getting one means two years in prison? Women in France don't have to safe up money and get, worst case, time and money of to travel twice across their states/state lines.
Time limits are easy to accepts if decission making and execution is simple, and pretty much without stigma.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:37 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I will note that Aesma noted, in France abortion is available up to 12 weeks. In the USA suggesting that as a limit is treated with contempt and rejected by by many outright. Why is there such outrage here when such is considered?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_France


Because access to abortion is very easy, paid for by the health insurance and trying to stop a woman from getting one means two years in prison? Women in France don't have to safe up money and get, worst case, time and money of to travel twice across their states/state lines.
Time limits are easy to accepts if decission making and execution is simple, and pretty much without stigma.

Best regards
Thomas

Like all healthcare in the USA, abortion in many places in the USA is low cost or available through clinics etc. While I agree with you that the variable access and costs is not good, it is not the ultimate barrier in the USA.

But where it is "free" (aka "covered") in the USA, you support the limits and mandating a three day waiting period, required counseling, etc.?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:41 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
apodino wrote:
The abortionist tools literally stab the fetus in the skull.


I call BS on that. Most abortions, 2/3 in the US, are performed before the 8th week. So no skull to stab. By far most abortions, 91% in the US, are performed before week 13, and up to week 14 that almost always means chemically induced, no stabbing, or suction/vacuum aspiration, again no stabbing.

Soooooo... you are against 1 or 2% of abortions?

Best regards
Thomas

Tommy, if I am correct you are German? If so do you agree with German law on Abortion?
Abortion in Germany is illegal under Section 218 of the German criminal code but simultaneously decriminalized under Section 218a of the German criminal code called Exception to liability for abortion,[1][2] in the first trimester upon condition of mandatory counseling, and is also permitted later in pregnancy in cases of medical necessity. In both cases, a waiting period of three days is required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

Any laws such as these are fought in the USA. Some states would absolutely implement such limits and requirements if allowed. If opposed to the German law are you fighting for to improve the women's right to terminate?

Tugg


I think I already stated a couple of times in discussions like this that I am generally fine with setting a time limit on no-questions asked abortion access, but I think the German time limit is a tat too tight. The fetus brain activity is below a level considered brain dead well after that after all. And that is the point where one life vs. another life starts having a meaning, because at the other end of our life it stops having one at that point.

I do like the mandatory no bias counselling giving options, and I have friends that changed their minds after it ... and didn't regret it.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Jetty
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Jetty wrote:
It's a state issue bar for the supposed constitutional right of abortion. A president can do nothing about it. Just as it isn't an issue of the EU but of it's members i.e.

While I do support abortion the SCOTUS is extremely activistic from an European perspective. Most European states allow for abortion by democratic decision, but not one of them ever had a court that dared to be as creative to read a right to abortion in a right to privacy. Any judge being so activistic would be frowned upon: if your ambition is in making policy you should become a politician and not a judge.


So a president can't campaign on and support an amendment to the constitution ? Lawmakers can't vote on it ?


Plus of course the itzy ditzy bit of human rights not being an issue handled by the EU, but fall under the European Convention of human rights, and hence are an ECHR topic. And that court is absolutely cried over as being "activist" all the time. And it had in deed ruled against Poland and Ireland on abortions. I am not aware they ever ruled in favour of restrictions actually.

You are not aware of them ever ruling in favor of restrictions? :roll:

Through its various rulings, the Court has declared that abortion is not a right under the Convention, that is, there is no right to have an abortion, as in Martins Ribeiro v. Portugal, or to practice abortion, as in Jean-Jacques v. Belgium. The prohibition of abortion per se by a State does not violate the Convention, following precedent from Martins Ribeiro v. Portugal, as well as from the case of the first two applicants, A, B and C v. Ireland, who unsuccessfully sued the State for its prohibition of abortion on demand.
http://9afb0ee4c2ca3737b892-e804076442d ... ppinck.pdf

You're basically making my point. The ECHR is cried over as being activist, yet even they don't go as far as mandating abortion unless in very specific circumstances.
 
tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
But where it is "free" (aka "covered") in the USA, you support the limits and mandating a three day waiting period, required counseling, etc.?

Tugg


If it is geographically convinient to pose no access barrier, I am fine with those, as long as counselling is unbiased and open ended. And not "look at it/listen to the heart beat" cruel of course. German catholic charities did counselling until...mm.. ~20 years ago when someone in the Vatican noticed.. they still had to do it unbiased and open ended, but if you went to catholic counselling you sure as hell wanted a plan B anyways. And I think that was good too. Stupid Vatican.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:08 pm

Tugger wrote:
What I am saying is we need to stay respectful of others reasoning and not reject it out of hand, out of habit. Some people earn the derision they end up being treated with but we should not start out that way. We should not make foes of people just because they have values that are differently from ours, even with something so fundamental. And as far as I can see, Apodino has not earned such and has stayed respectful. To me respect earns respect.

I will note that Aesma noted, in France abortion is available up to 12 weeks. In the USA suggesting that as a limit is treated with contempt and rejected by by many outright. Why is there such outrage here when such is considered?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_France

This is not an "easy" discussion. We should all encourage and value reasoned discussion. That is the point I was trying to make.

Tugg


The issue however, is that the GOP does reject it out of habit. We have had established law for decades. Yet they keep running On the platform of banning it to appease people that will not reason it out.

The law in France is for a no questions asked abortion up to 12 weeks. After that it is up to doctors to decide if it is necessary. Not a bad law, but in the US the supreme court went with viability out of the womb at 18-22 weeks. The amount of abortions at that late a stage are very small.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Tugger
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:20 pm

casinterest wrote:
Tugger wrote:
What I am saying is we need to stay respectful of others reasoning and not reject it out of hand, out of habit. Some people earn the derision they end up being treated with but we should not start out that way. We should not make foes of people just because they have values that are differently from ours, even with something so fundamental. And as far as I can see, Apodino has not earned such and has stayed respectful. To me respect earns respect.

I will note that Aesma noted, in France abortion is available up to 12 weeks. In the USA suggesting that as a limit is treated with contempt and rejected by by many outright. Why is there such outrage here when such is considered?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_France

This is not an "easy" discussion. We should all encourage and value reasoned discussion. That is the point I was trying to make.

Tugg


The issue however, is that the GOP does reject it out of habit. We have had established law for decades. Yet they keep running On the platform of banning it to appease people that will not reason it out.

The law in France is for a no questions asked abortion up to 12 weeks. After that it is up to doctors to decide if it is necessary. Not a bad law, but in the US the supreme court went with viability out of the womb at 18-22 weeks. The amount of abortions at that late a stage are very small.

Yup, no real disagreement there. It has become a "plank" and that is never a good thing for anything involving actual medical things (hell, just look at how much that's helping mask use in these times).

But personal, individual views and ideals on the topic I do understand at least. There is reality, life (death), passion. Planks don't have that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 pm

Tugger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Tugger wrote:
What I am saying is we need to stay respectful of others reasoning and not reject it out of hand, out of habit. Some people earn the derision they end up being treated with but we should not start out that way. We should not make foes of people just because they have values that are differently from ours, even with something so fundamental. And as far as I can see, Apodino has not earned such and has stayed respectful. To me respect earns respect.

I will note that Aesma noted, in France abortion is available up to 12 weeks. In the USA suggesting that as a limit is treated with contempt and rejected by by many outright. Why is there such outrage here when such is considered?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_France

This is not an "easy" discussion. We should all encourage and value reasoned discussion. That is the point I was trying to make.

Tugg


The issue however, is that the GOP does reject it out of habit. We have had established law for decades. Yet they keep running On the platform of banning it to appease people that will not reason it out.

The law in France is for a no questions asked abortion up to 12 weeks. After that it is up to doctors to decide if it is necessary. Not a bad law, but in the US the supreme court went with viability out of the womb at 18-22 weeks. The amount of abortions at that late a stage are very small.

Yup, no real disagreement there. It has become a "plank" and that is never a good thing for anything involving actual medical things (hell, just look at how much that's helping mask use in these times).

But personal, individual views and ideals on the topic I do understand at least. There is reality, life (death), passion. Planks don't have that.

Tugg



it is a successful plank for one issue voters, but it isn't getting us the leadership we deserve in this country.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aesma
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:56 am

apodino wrote:
You mention babies with birth defects. What kind of message does that send to the people already on this planet who were given that chance? I know lots of people who have had some issues since birth. That doesn't mean they are any less worthy of living than you or I are. (I do agree with you on the military spending, its gotten out of control)


Not all of them find it's a chance. A kid in France sued his parents for having been born.

There are plenty of reasons why someone might be disabled, they should have all the support needed.

However if future parents know they won't be able to cope with a disabled child, or think his/her life will be poor/horrible, then abortion should be available.

I have nothing against Down's syndrome children, I wouldn't want one though, and it's a majority opinion in France. Despite women having kids later and later, which is a factor in that syndrome, almost no kids are born with it in France these days. I haven't seen one in years. I know US pro-lifer have caught up on it and deem us an evil country...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:33 am

Tugger wrote:
Tommy, if I am correct you are German? If so do you agree with German law on Abortion?
Abortion in Germany is illegal under Section 218 of the German criminal code but simultaneously decriminalized under Section 218a of the German criminal code called Exception to liability for abortion,[1][2] in the first trimester upon condition of mandatory counseling, and is also permitted later in pregnancy in cases of medical necessity. In both cases, a waiting period of three days is required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

Any laws such as these are fought in the USA. Some states would absolutely implement such limits and requirements if allowed. If opposed to the German law are you fighting for to improve the women's right to terminate?

Tugg


You have extremists on one side (anti abortion bombing clinics murdering doctors etc.) creating extremists on the other side.

Also, if abortion is easy and cheap to get, women needing one won't wait for months to have one, so 12 weeks is enough.

There is no time limit in France in case the fetus has a defect, or the life of the mother is in danger (when I say no limit, I'm not saying 8 months obviously, at that stage it's a viable baby).

I think some EU countries allow later "routine" abortions, Belgium for starters. Of course in Belgium children can now be euthanized so...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:40 pm

Do remember when Obama care was launched Republican went on with a national tantrum about death squads. Reality: ACA would pay doctors for an appointment for old people who wanted to discuss end of life decisions. Now those same tantrumers are still at it, they should be allowed to circulate in bars, BBQs, arenas etc and then infect old people who are going to die anyway. Go figure!
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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ztarizona
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:01 pm

apodino wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
While the latest Roe v. Wade interpretation may be the first thing most observers are waiting for, the other decisions might even have more importance, in the long term, for many Americans. But abortion has become an obsession - an unhealthy obsession for the body politic, I would argue - for people on both sides. So today entire factions in out country will either be crying in their beer or celebrating with it.

All while social distancing, I hope. ;)


The reason that people are obsessed with Abortion is because there are many people, myself included, who believe that Abortion takes the life of a Human Being. If people believe that innocent lives are being lost, would it not be reasonable to think that there would be people who fight for those lives? Every Year in January, Washington DC draws hundreds of thousands of protesters from across the country to draw attention to this issue. I find it funny that protests like the Women's March and BLM get all sorts of press, but no body covers the March for Life despite the huge number of participants it draws from around the country.

This is why Abortion is still a hot button topic, and other social issues such as Gay Marriage are pretty much settled. People can have their own opinions on Gay Marriage, but two people of the same sex getting married is not causing harm to anyone. For the most part, I think most reasonable people can say that Gay folks who are married actually mind their own business for the most part and what they choose to do in their private life affects no one else. Abortion is much different. In the case of Abortion, human life is actually being harmed. Big difference. Put another way, the only arguments against Gay Marriage are religious ones, where you can make arguments against Abortion without even bringing up religion. This is a big mistake that many pro lifers make, is that they lump arguments against abortion with homophobic arguments. That wont work. There is a group out there called Secular Pro-Life. That is the model I think the pro-life side needs to make.

I am also going to say this. I am pro-life, but I also support Single Payer Healthcare, paid child care, better paid maternity and paternity leave, as well as safety nets so that Mothers can get by, and I am also a staunch opponent of the Death Penalty. Being pro-life to me isn't just about saving the child in the womb, but making sure that child, and mother are well taken care of even many years after birth.



An unborn infant is called a fetus, not a person, not a baby, not a child.
How about you follow your own dogma for yourself, and keep your opinions and religion to yourself and stop trying to visit your morals and values upon others. Women have full domain over their bodies regardless of your 'opinions'. Thank the US Supreme court!
“The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― Issac Asimov
 
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ztarizona
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:04 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

I call BS on that. Most abortions, 2/3 in the US, are performed before the 8th week. So no skull to stab. By far most abortions, 91% in the US, are performed before week 13, and up to week 14 that almost always means chemically induced, no stabbing, or suction/vacuum aspiration, again no stabbing.

Soooooo... you are against 1 or 2% of abortions?

Best regards
Thomas

Tommy, if I am correct you are German? If so do you agree with German law on Abortion?
Abortion in Germany is illegal under Section 218 of the German criminal code but simultaneously decriminalized under Section 218a of the German criminal code called Exception to liability for abortion,[1][2] in the first trimester upon condition of mandatory counseling, and is also permitted later in pregnancy in cases of medical necessity. In both cases, a waiting period of three days is required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

Any laws such as these are fought in the USA. Some states would absolutely implement such limits and requirements if allowed. If opposed to the German law are you fighting for to improve the women's right to terminate?

Tugg


I think I already stated a couple of times in discussions like this that I am generally fine with setting a time limit on no-questions asked abortion access, but I think the German time limit is a tat too tight. The fetus brain activity is below a level considered brain dead well after that after all. And that is the point where one life vs. another life starts having a meaning, because at the other end of our life it stops having one at that point.

I do like the mandatory no bias counselling giving options, and I have friends that changed their minds after it ... and didn't regret it.

Best regards
Thomas


So all the nonsense conservatives cry about with government intrusion into peoples' lives somehow shouldn't apply to one of the most personal decisions a woman can make with her doctor? The moment the United States allows a moral majority to visit themselves into separate, unrelated people's personal business/bodies is the day liberty has died. It is great that you have 'feelings' and you are good with certain things and not others, please follow your own moral compass in your own life.
“The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― Issac Asimov
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:25 pm

I wonder if all of those protestors who thought that the appointment of Kavanaugh and Gorsuch would result in Roe v. Wade being overturned are just a little embarrassed right now? I remember some pretty impressive histrionics.
 
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casinterest
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:40 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
I wonder if all of those protestors who thought that the appointment of Kavanaugh and Gorsuch would result in Roe v. Wade being overturned are just a little embarrassed right now? I remember some pretty impressive histrionics.



This case wasn't about Roe Vs Wade., but it was only decided by John Roberts trying to save the court through treating like cases alike. Kavanaugh and Gorsuch voted exactly how the protesters assumed they would
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jordanh
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:54 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
I wonder if all of those protestors who thought that the appointment of Kavanaugh and Gorsuch would result in Roe v. Wade being overturned are just a little embarrassed right now? I remember some pretty impressive histrionics.


I wonder if all of those right wing nuts who thought that the appointment of Kavanaugh and Gorsuch would result in Roe v. Wade being overturned are just a little embarrassed right now? I remember some pretty impressive confirmation hearing histrionics.

There; it is fixed for you.
 
tommy1808
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Re: SCOTUS Strikes again: Abortion rights prevail

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:45 am

ztarizona wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Tommy, if I am correct you are German? If so do you agree with German law on Abortion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Germany

Any laws such as these are fought in the USA. Some states would absolutely implement such limits and requirements if allowed. If opposed to the German law are you fighting for to improve the women's right to terminate?

Tugg


I think I already stated a couple of times in discussions like this that I am generally fine with setting a time limit on no-questions asked abortion access, but I think the German time limit is a tat too tight. The fetus brain activity is below a level considered brain dead well after that after all. And that is the point where one life vs. another life starts having a meaning, because at the other end of our life it stops having one at that point.

I do like the mandatory no bias counselling giving options, and I have friends that changed their minds after it ... and didn't regret it.

Best regards
Thomas


So all the nonsense conservatives cry about with government intrusion into peoples' lives somehow shouldn't apply to one of the most personal decisions a woman can make with her doctor? .


a) the doctor can do that counselling, no need to involve 3rd parties.
b) counselling has to be open ended. No moralizing, no pushing in a specific direction. Just to make sure that an informed decision is made, same as with every medical procedure or turning life support of for your loved ones.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6

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