Hi. Seems like everyone is focusing on the conflict between India and China (PR).
However seems like you guys have forgotten the South China Sea region, where there is dispute between PRC and ASEAN nations.

Just wanna create this thread to update what is going on...

Vietnamese articles reposted pictures from US 7th fleet show that China's discovery ship, Hai Yang 4 was being "sanwiched" by USS Gabrielle Giffords and Vietnamese Coast Guard:



(1): Chinese Hai Yang 4
(2): Vietnamese Coast Guard
Not numbered: USS GG.

This Chinese ship was inapproriately messing in Vietnam's EEZ.

Yes, these actoins and events do not get enough exposure in the world now. It needs to be exposed now or it will be too late to change without all out war. Even now it will have a price for the world to confront China on hese illegal actions.

I say for each action like this a ship should enter Chinese waters the exact same distance, nearby as possible, at about the same time/soon as one can arrive, into their waters. They will make a stink over it, so expose it capture it the media for the world see, counter it with evidence of what they are doing and ask them to withdraw. Let them know the ship will move when theirs does.

Tugg

China says its Chinese EEZ and that Vietnam recognized this in the past...

China already knows how weak and bribe-prone the US leader is..therefore this the best chance they will have for the foreseeable future to seize disputed territory and Taiwan.
If they do not take the advantage of the current weakened America soon, it may evaporate before a new American president arrives.

BN747

Aesma wrote:

China says its Chinese EEZ and that Vietnam recognized this in the past...

That document (Vietnam's recognition on Chinese EEZ) came from an individual of the Vietnamese gov (Prime Minister) and it did not represent for the whole Vietnamese government, so basically it had no valid political meaning.

South China Sea is a political mess. All those countries claim lots of territory claims and then there is China, now claiming over 90% of it. Perhaps this new thread from China might bring the other nations together to reach an agreement.

During my student years, I developed a simulation game about this problem, so I follow this conflict with some extra interest.

Tugger wrote:

Yes, these actoins and events do not get enough exposure in the world now. It needs to be exposed now or it will be too late to change without all out war. Even now it will have a price for the world to confront China on hese illegal actions.

I say for each action like this a ship should enter Chinese waters the exact same distance, nearby as possible, at about the same time/soon as one can arrive, into their waters. They will make a stink over it, so expose it capture it the media for the world see, counter it with evidence of what they are doing and ask them to withdraw. Let them know the ship will move when theirs does.

Tugg

Sounds all diplomatic, if it is a non-USA or Russian ship in Chinese waters, what do you think the odds are that China will either fire or ram the vessel?
Then go the other way around, do you think the USA would fire or ram a Chinese vessel?

China by simply letting the USA know that they have carrier killer hypersonic missiles have caused the US Navy and Pentagon to come up with a whole new plan for military action in the Pacific with the carrier role being somewhat downplayed, really think China is so concerned about a single US destroyer sailing through the China Sea?

I agree something has to be done, but with the world is now flocking to China to buy up their medical equipment supplies for the virus which started in a country we cannot name, the odds are not good that the world will stand up to the bully. Now if exports start to trail off, they may be willing to "modify" their ways, but the odds of that happening are very low.

par13del wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Yes, these actoins and events do not get enough exposure in the world now. It needs to be exposed now or it will be too late to change without all out war. Even now it will have a price for the world to confront China on hese illegal actions.

I say for each action like this a ship should enter Chinese waters the exact same distance, nearby as possible, at about the same time/soon as one can arrive, into their waters. They will make a stink over it, so expose it capture it the media for the world see, counter it with evidence of what they are doing and ask them to withdraw. Let them know the ship will move when theirs does.

Tugg

Sounds all diplomatic, if it is a non-USA or Russian ship in Chinese waters, what do you think the odds are that China will either fire or ram the vessel?
Then go the other way around, do you think the USA would fire or ram a Chinese vessel?

China by simply letting the USA know that they have carrier killer hypersonic missiles have caused the US Navy and Pentagon to come up with a whole new plan for military action in the Pacific with the carrier role being somewhat downplayed, really think China is so concerned about a single US destroyer sailing through the China Sea?
.

Now that is simple.... switch recognition from Beijing to Taipei, reactivate the defense cooperation: unsinkable aircraft carrier in the north Taiwan sea.

Best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

Now that is simple.... switch recognition from Beijing to Taipei, reactivate the defense cooperation: unsinkable aircraft carrier in the north Taiwan sea.

Best regards
Thomas

The existing POTUS is wind blown enough to do that, unfortunately, remind me who in the world will support him, after all, its not about China or Taiwan, its about POTUS.

par13del wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

Now that is simple.... switch recognition from Beijing to Taipei, reactivate the defense cooperation: unsinkable aircraft carrier in the north Taiwan sea.

Best regards
Thomas

The existing POTUS is wind blown enough to do that, unfortunately, remind me who in the world will support him, after all, its not about China or Taiwan, its about POTUS.

I think plenty of countries may just wait for that dam to break.

Best regards
Thomas

par13del wrote:

if it is a non-USA or Russian ship in Chinese waters, what do you think the odds are that China will either fire or ram the vessel?

I bet the Japanese could get away with it, too.

par13del wrote:

Sounds all diplomatic, if it is a non-USA or Russian ship in Chinese waters, what do you think the odds are that China will either fire or ram the vessel?
Then go the other way around, do you think the USA would fire or ram a Chinese vessel?

Everyday on the South China Sea: Vietnam and Phillipines' Coast Guard have been racing, ramming and playing water-shooting game with Chinese PR ships (or vice versa) using USA-made vessels.

USA acts more likely as a supplier of this crisis. Yes USA won't ram any PRC ship, but the USA-made vessels do.

johns624 wrote:

par13del wrote:

if it is a non-USA or Russian ship in Chinese waters, what do you think the odds are that China will either fire or ram the vessel?

I bet the Japanese could get away with it, too.

Well the Vietnameses is "convincing" Japan about this South China Sea crisis just last month.

Talking with new Ambassador Takio, Mr. Nguyen Xuan Phuc (Vietnam's Prime Minister) also suggested that the two sides continue to cooperate on regional and international forums; asked Japan to support Vietnam's position on the South China Sea.

[url]https://www.bbc.com/vietnamese/vietnam-52989813[/url]

This suggestion is sensical when Vietnam-Japan have close relationship in the past few years, and Japan have been (reportedly and silently) support Vietnam with money and weapons.

Japan has a Top 5 navy and air force. Look at the history between Japan and China. I believe that China both hates and fears Japan.

// Update: Chinese Coast Guard messing around Vietnam's oil-shore
Cre: The East Sea Journal via Facebook
Around 12 hours ago, Chinese Coast Guard (reg 5402) was messing around Vietnam's "Lan Tây" oil-shore of unit 06.1 and had "provocative action" with Vietnamese forces.

The oil-shore is a part of Vietnam's "Petro Unit 06.1" located in the Vanguard Bank area (~500km South East of SGN; dispute area between Vietnam, China PR and Taiwan), and this is a collaboration between Petrovietnam and Rosneft.
The CG ship is reportedly still moving in the Vanguard Bank area at this moment.

Antaras wrote:

This suggestion is sensical when Vietnam-Japan have close relationship in the past few years, and Japan have been (reportedly and silently) support Vietnam with money and weapons.

Unfortunately the detractors in either country just need to throw the words "comfort women" out there and that relation and corporation is killed for another 10 years or so.

US said NO!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53397673

China's pursuit of offshore resources in parts of the South China Sea is "completely unlawful", US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has said.

Mr Pompeo said he wanted to make clear that Beijing's "campaign of bullying to control" the disputed waters was wrong.

China said that the US "deliberately distorts facts and international law".

Antaras wrote:

US said NO!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53397673

China's pursuit of offshore resources in parts of the South China Sea is "completely unlawful", US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has said.

Mr Pompeo said he wanted to make clear that Beijing's "campaign of bullying to control" the disputed waters was wrong.

China said that the US "deliberately distorts facts and international law".

This must be the only time I will ever agree with anything a member of the Trump govenment says. He's completely right. China really needs to be reigned in in the South China sea. How you do this is anyones guess, but a good start is a show of force but it needs to be continued. China can't just bully their way into land (and often building their own land) which is not in their internationally legally recoginised waters and then cry that those who take action or complain are muddling in Chinese internal affairs. It doesn't wash.

It must be said however it is too rich of the American government to trot out international court rulings (like the 2016 arbitration), when they themselves never obey such rulings when they go against them, and have in fact withdrawn from many such courts recently. Apparently, in the eyes of Washington, everyone else should be part of these courts and obey the rulings except them. They really have no credibility here. This doesn't mean I side with China, I just think both are pretty much worthless in their words due to their deeds.

Soon you have to add Indonesia to that list. China is expanding their operations there. There would be overlap at some point. This is a kiss of death for their economic dominance.

ewt340 wrote:

Soon you have to add Indonesia to that list. China is expanding their operations there. There would be overlap at some point. This is a kiss of death for their economic dominance.

Yes, in the original release from the State mentioned Indonesia alongside Vietnam, Phillipines, Brunei and Malaysia.

It's time for the ASEAN to unite and protect their sea!

Antaras wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

Soon you have to add Indonesia to that list. China is expanding their operations there. There would be overlap at some point. This is a kiss of death for their economic dominance.

Yes, in the original release from the State mentioned Indonesia alongside Vietnam, Phillipines, Brunei and Malaysia.

It's time for the ASEAN to unite and protect their sea!

Well, I wouldn't say ASEAN. Since Myanmar, Laos or Cambodia are on the edge about it. What they need is Japan and South Korea to get their sh*t together and join the movement.

ewt340 wrote:

Antaras wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

Soon you have to add Indonesia to that list. China is expanding their operations there. There would be overlap at some point. This is a kiss of death for their economic dominance.

Yes, in the original release from the State mentioned Indonesia alongside Vietnam, Phillipines, Brunei and Malaysia.

It's time for the ASEAN to unite and protect their sea!

Well, I wouldn't say ASEAN. Since Myanmar, Laos or Cambodia are on the edge about it. What they need is Japan and South Korea to get their sh*t together and join the movement.

Yeah, as US showed its opinions, I think the allies including SKorea and Japan will soon follow.

It is even easier when Vietnam (as well as Phillipines) has so good relationship with those countries.

Dutchy wrote:

South China Sea is a political mess. All those countries claim lots of territory claims and then there is China, now claiming over 90% of it. Perhaps this new thread from China might bring the other nations together to reach an agreement.

During my student years, I developed a simulation game about this problem, so I follow this conflict with some extra interest.

The problem with the Chinese claims is that it goes beyond what's normally acceptable. Basically they're claiming that the entire South China Sea is theirs, and now they're flexing their muscles.

Militarily, there's no way that ASEAN nations can go head to head with China in a standoff and win.

Derico wrote:

It must be said however it is too rich of the American government to trot out international court rulings (like the 2016 arbitration), when they themselves never obey such rulings when they go against them, and have in fact withdrawn from many such courts recently. Apparently, in the eyes of Washington, everyone else should be part of these courts and obey the rulings except them. They really have no credibility here. This doesn't mean I side with China, I just think both are pretty much worthless in their words due to their deeds.

The US is not party to the UNCLOS, but does act in accordance with it. That might be one of the few bits of international law they actually do have credibility.

best regards
Thomas

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

South China Sea is a political mess. All those countries claim lots of territory claims and then there is China, now claiming over 90% of it. Perhaps this new thread from China might bring the other nations together to reach an agreement.

During my student years, I developed a simulation game about this problem, so I follow this conflict with some extra interest.

The problem with the Chinese claims is that it goes beyond what's normally acceptable. Basically they're claiming that the entire South China Sea is theirs, and now they're flexing their muscles.

Militarily, there's no way that ASEAN nations can go head to head with China in a standoff and win.

That's true, they claim 90% of the South China Sea, while historically their claim is the weakest of all.

Dutchy wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

South China Sea is a political mess. All those countries claim lots of territory claims and then there is China, now claiming over 90% of it. Perhaps this new thread from China might bring the other nations together to reach an agreement.

During my student years, I developed a simulation game about this problem, so I follow this conflict with some extra interest.

The problem with the Chinese claims is that it goes beyond what's normally acceptable. Basically they're claiming that the entire South China Sea is theirs, and now they're flexing their muscles.

Militarily, there's no way that ASEAN nations can go head to head with China in a standoff and win.

That's true, they claim 90% of the South China Sea, while historically their claim is the weakest of all.

Their claim to the land masses they control isn´t any better ......

best regards
Thomas

Antaras wrote:

Yeah, as US showed its opinions, I think the allies including SKorea and Japan will soon follow.

It is even easier when Vietnam (as well as Phillipines) has so good relationship with those countries.

Japan is legally bounded by the Constitution enforced after their defeat in WWII that they cannot do any military action other than self defense. And any alteration to that part of the Japanese constitution would be considered a major provocation against China, North Korea and South Korea.

c933103 wrote:

Antaras wrote:

Yeah, as US showed its opinions, I think the allies including SKorea and Japan will soon follow.

It is even easier when Vietnam (as well as Phillipines) has so good relationship with those countries.

Japan is legally bounded by the Constitution enforced after their defeat in WWII that they cannot do any military action other than self defense. And any alteration to that part of the Japanese constitution would be considered a major provocation against China, North Korea and South Korea.

Well seems like Japan supports Vietnam...
...by selling six patrol vessels to Vietnam!

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/08/japan-to-build-six-patrol-ships-for-vietnams-coast-guard/

Construction of the vessels is set to begin next year, with the delivery of the sixth and final ship to the VCG due in October 2025. The Japanese shipbuilder has not yet been selected. The class of vessel selected by the VCG has not been officially announced yet but it is reported that will likely be based on the Aso-class, a class of 79 meters patrol vessels in use by the JCG. These patrol vessels have a high speed (over 30 knots) thanks to powerful diesel power plants and four waterjets. They are fitted with a 40mm main gun and four water cannons. The crew complement is 30 sailors. The JCG has three vessels of the Aso-class. The first one was built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries while the other two were built by Japan Marine United.

For the record, JICA signed similar agreements for the construction of patrol ships and boats for the Philippine Coast Guard in Japan under the joint Japanese-Philippine Maritime Safety Capability Improvement Project (MSCIP) program. In 2016-2018, ten large 44.5-meter Parola-class patrol boats were built by Japan Maritime United for the Philippine Coast Guard under a 2013 contract worth $ 191 million. And as we reported, in February 2020, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries was awarded a contract worth $ 132.57 million to build two 94-meter Multi-Role Response Vessels (MRRV) patrol ships for the Philippine Coast Guard based on the Kunigami-class of the JCG.

Here we go, another day another China's maneuver in the South China Sea.

Vietnamese article: https://vnexpress.net/trung-quoc-sap-dien-tap-trai-phep-o-bien-dong-4151062.html

According to the announcement of the Hainan Civil Affairs Bureau, the Chinese military will hold a seven-day illegal maneuver in the Paracel Islands in Vietnam and southeast of Hainan Island, within the area limited by coordinates 18. ° 19.5N 111 ° 13.5E, 19 ° 02.0N 112 ° 14.5E, 19 ° 02.5N 112 ° 57.0E, 18 ° 17.0N 113 ° 51.5E, 17 ° 37.5N 113 ° 52.0E, 16 ° 38.0N 112 ° 44.0E, 16 ° 38.0N 112 ° 44.0E, 16 ° 38.0N 112 ° 20.0E.

I love the way that the article insert the word "illegal"

The USA should completely withdraw from the region and let local nations deal with China in their backyards. They can handle it themselves.

LabQuest wrote:

The USA should completely withdraw from the region and let local nations deal with China in their backyards. They can handle it themselves.

First, the US has direct benefits on this sea (the trade,...), as well as US's allies.
Second, how about the Mutual Defense Treaty between US and Phillipines? If China shots Phillipines and oops, US is now officially involved.

In other words, US has to involve in this, for its benefit. Besides that, it is nice for you to find some more reasons to criticize the China PR.

Antaras wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

The USA should completely withdraw from the region and let local nations deal with China in their backyards. They can handle it themselves.

First, the US has direct benefits on this sea (the trade,...), as well as US's allies.
Second, how about the Mutual Defense Treaty between US and Phillipines? If China shots Phillipines and oops, US is now officially involved.

In other words, US has to involve in this, for its benefit. Besides that, it is nice for you to find some more reasons to criticize the China PR.

We should be in the Pacific or Philippines ready to defend the Philippines if that becomes necessary. I'm not sure we should have these agreements going forward. The world dislikes when we meddle so we should withdraw from these agreements asap and let nations defend themselves and not let the USA mess everything up.

Much of the world has castigated the USA for its meddling and influence so now its China's time to take the mantle and show the world how to lead in a more peaceful way.

LabQuest wrote:

The USA should completely withdraw from the region and let local nations deal with China in their backyards. They can handle it themselves.

Wrong. We shouldn't be the lead partner, but we should give backing to Japan, ROK, Philippines, Australia, India, etc. China is too large for just one country to handle.

LabQuest wrote:

The world dislikes when we meddle so we should withdraw from these agreements asap and let nations defend themselves and not let the USA mess everything up.

Much of the world has castigated the USA for its meddling and influence so now its China's time to take the mantle and show the world how to lead in a more peaceful way.

It depends where.
I highly appreciate US influence in Europe, but not at all in Syria and Libya.

Liberals like Carter or Clinton couldn't maintain world peace for long.
People like Bush are warmonger. Then there is the influence of the military industrial complex, e. g. the schizophrenic help for Pakistan which in turn supports Taliban.
Fighting anti liberal ideologies is good. But if it's done by supporting a dictator who just wants to help the elite to fill its pocket it's a bit like "operation successful, patient dead. ".

Pitty that foreign rule is politically incorrect today.

In short: liberals can't get the job done.
Others have motives that are bad.

But then warfare in a few countries is still better than the world falling back into anarchy.

I appreciate Chinese help in Africa.
If China starts leading the world they will also get a military industrial complex, but unchecked by free speech and elections.

Sokes wrote:

If China starts leading the world they will also get a military industrial complex, but unchecked by free speech and elections.

They already do but it's worse. Most of their heavy industry is owned by the government.

Sokes wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

The world dislikes when we meddle so we should withdraw from these agreements asap and let nations defend themselves and not let the USA mess everything up.

Much of the world has castigated the USA for its meddling and influence so now its China's time to take the mantle and show the world how to lead in a more peaceful way.

It depends where.
I highly appreciate US influence in Europe, but not at all in Syria and Libya.

Liberals like Carter or Clinton couldn't maintain world peace for long.
People like Bush are warmonger. Then there is the influence of the military industrial complex, e. g. the schizophrenic help for Pakistan which in turn supports Taliban.
Fighting anti liberal ideologies is good. But if it's done by supporting a dictator who just wants to help the elite to fill its pocket it's a bit like "operation successful, patient dead. ".

Pitty that foreign rule is politically incorrect today.

In short: liberals can't get the job done.
Others have motives that are bad.

But then warfare in a few countries is still better than the world falling back into anarchy.

I appreciate Chinese help in Africa.
If China starts leading the world they will also get a military industrial complex, but unchecked by free speech and elections.

It's all the same, their help is funding only. But the workers, the materials, the companies and everything else is Chinese.

Most of the benefits and money goes to rich Africans rather than majority of the populations.

ewt340 wrote:

Most of the benefits and money goes to rich Africans rather than majority of the populations.

Is there an industrial country in which industrialisation happened without enormous inequality?
Rule of law doesn't happen overnight, nor does corruption disappear overnight.
I believe Al Capone was around 1920?

In developed capitalist societies merit decides.
In infant stage capitalism political connections decide.
It's the same in India today.
Salaries only go up once plenty of good jobs become available. In India there are a few places where business is possible. In the vast majority of small cities local government interference chases away potential investors.

Abundance of labor, limited jobs equals bad salaries.

I think Roosevelt the elder's fight against trusts was also beginning of 20th century?

par13del wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Yes, these actoins and events do not get enough exposure in the world now. It needs to be exposed now or it will be too late to change without all out war. Even now it will have a price for the world to confront China on hese illegal actions.

I say for each action like this a ship should enter Chinese waters the exact same distance, nearby as possible, at about the same time/soon as one can arrive, into their waters. They will make a stink over it, so expose it capture it the media for the world see, counter it with evidence of what they are doing and ask them to withdraw. Let them know the ship will move when theirs does.

Tugg

Sounds all diplomatic, if it is a non-USA or Russian ship in Chinese waters, what do you think the odds are that China will either fire or ram the vessel?
Then go the other way around, do you think the USA would fire or ram a Chinese vessel?

China by simply letting the USA know that they have carrier killer hypersonic missiles have caused the US Navy and Pentagon to come up with a whole new plan for military action in the Pacific with the carrier role being somewhat downplayed, really think China is so concerned about a single US destroyer sailing through the China Sea?

I agree something has to be done, but with the world is now flocking to China to buy up their medical equipment supplies for the virus which started in a country we cannot name, the odds are not good that the world will stand up to the bully. Now if exports start to trail off, they may be willing to "modify" their ways, but the odds of that happening are very low.

You wouldn't want to ram a paper bag in either of the LCS designs, you'd be more likely to sink than sink anything else.

It's highly ironic that Americans are calling the Chinese bullies when the US has been a global bully for decades.

Kiwirob wrote:

It's highly ironic that Americans are calling the Chinese bullies when the US has been a global bully for decades.

Indeed highly. However that doesn't mean they are wrong, and doesn't mean they shouldn't engage with the rest of the world and try to put a stop to what China is doing.

Also, the redicuous 16,000 strong international Chinese fishing fleet, a huge chunk of which is sitting off the Galápagos Islands.

Reinhardt wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

It's highly ironic that Americans are calling the Chinese bullies when the US has been a global bully for decades.

Indeed highly. However that doesn't mean they are wrong, and doesn't mean they shouldn't engage with the rest of the world and try to put a stop to what China is doing.

Also, the redicuous 16,000 strong international Chinese fishing fleet, a huge chunk of which is sitting off the Galápagos Islands.

It's also not so ridiculous when there are Spanish and Norwegian trawlers operating in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. European trawlers operating off the African coasts is part of the reason why so many Africans turn to piracy, many of them used to be fishermen, until the European trawlers destroyed the inshore fisheries, and they don't have the equipment to go offshore.

Kiwirob wrote:

It's also not so ridiculous when there are Spanish and Norwegian trawlers operating in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. European trawlers operating off the African coasts is part of the reason why so many Africans turn to piracy, many of them used to be fishermen, until the European trawlers destroyed the inshore fisheries, and they don't have the equipment to go offshore.

So is that right or is that wrong?

If it is wrong then you support working in a coordinated fashion to stop the Chinese from doing the same in other nations waters (as well as supporting efforts to curtail over fishing and illegal fishing by European elements in African waters etc.)

If you are fine with it then you cannot make the argument against the Europeans fishing in African nation's waters as well as Pacific and Indian waters.

So which is it?

Tugg

Sokes wrote:

ewt340 wrote:

Most of the benefits and money goes to rich Africans rather than majority of the populations.

Is there an industrial country in which industrialisation happened without enormous inequality?
Rule of law doesn't happen overnight, nor does corruption disappear overnight.
I believe Al Capone was around 1920?

In developed capitalist societies merit decides.
In infant stage capitalism political connections decide.
It's the same in India today.
Salaries only go up once plenty of good jobs become available. In India there are a few places where business is possible. In the vast majority of small cities local government interference chases away potential investors.

Abundance of labor, limited jobs equals bad salaries.

I think Roosevelt the elder's fight against trusts was also beginning of 20th century?

That's my point isn't it. It could be the US or China, neither of them actually benefits majority of these country.
So We already knows the US f'ed up many country, let's actually talk about how China is doing the same. And that's the fact.

I love Napoleon and I do respect Lenin.
When Lenin saw that Socialism doesn't work Russia already in 1921 changed to a socialist/ capitalist mix, the " New Economic Policy".
A socialist that believes in evidence, who would have expected?
Also: Russia was a very authoritarian society and there were no mature capitalist model countries like today.

However after Lenin Stalin came out on top.
Economically he did the "Great Break".
Socialism works well under the threat of Gulag. Add Stalin's paranoia.
So what's better, evolution or revolution?
No fixed rule, Napoleon was great.
But are the liberals of Arab's spring happy today?

Indians have a way of educating children that supports a submissive attitude to the village head:
Respect the elder, don't back answer and such Confucian stuff.

It takes time to make a liberal society.
As Gandhi said: "Reform always comes at a snail's pace. "

Tugger wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

It's also not so ridiculous when there are Spanish and Norwegian trawlers operating in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. European trawlers operating off the African coasts is part of the reason why so many Africans turn to piracy, many of them used to be fishermen, until the European trawlers destroyed the inshore fisheries, and they don't have the equipment to go offshore.

So is that right or is that wrong?

If it is wrong then you support working in a coordinated fashion to stop the Chinese from doing the same in other nations waters (as well as supporting efforts to curtail over fishing and illegal fishing by European elements in African waters etc.)

If you are fine with it then you cannot make the argument against the Europeans fishing in African nation's waters as well as Pacific and Indian waters.

So which is it?

Tugg

where do I start, I think it's ridiculous that European trawlers are exploiting fishing resources in the Pacific and Indian Oceans but it's not so ridiculous for a Pacific Rim country China to fish in the Pacific Ocean, I would think it's ridiculous if Chinese trawlers where fishing in the North or South Atlantic.

Kiwirob wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

It's also not so ridiculous when there are Spanish and Norwegian trawlers operating in the Pacific and Indian Oceans. European trawlers operating off the African coasts is part of the reason why so many Africans turn to piracy, many of them used to be fishermen, until the European trawlers destroyed the inshore fisheries, and they don't have the equipment to go offshore.

So is that right or is that wrong?

If it is wrong then you support working in a coordinated fashion to stop the Chinese from doing the same in other nations waters (as well as supporting efforts to curtail over fishing and illegal fishing by European elements in African waters etc.)

If you are fine with it then you cannot make the argument against the Europeans fishing in African nation's waters as well as Pacific and Indian waters.

So which is it?

Tugg

where do I start, I think it's ridiculous that European trawlers are exploiting fishing resources in the Pacific and Indian Oceans but it's not so ridiculous for a Pacific Rim country China to fish in the Pacific Ocean, I would think it's ridiculous if Chinese trawlers where fishing in the North or South Atlantic.

Chinese trawlers do fish in North or South Atlantic in large quantities, sometimes even violating the territorial water right of Latin American or African countries and causing those countries to attack thosr ships to retaliate.

Ecuador fishery resources threatened by a fleet of 260 Chinese vessels — MercoPress: https://en.mercopress.com/2020/07/30/ec ... se-vessels
Argentine patrol arrests Chinese jigger illegally fishing in the county's EEZ — MercoPress: https://en.mercopress.com/2020/05/05/ar ... unty-s-eez
Argentina's EEZ "flooded" by Chinese jiggers catching tons of squid — MercoPress: https://en.mercopress.com/2020/04/28/ar ... s-of-squid
Nigerian Navy Thwarts Hijacking of Chinese Fishing Vessel: https://www.maritime-executive.com/arti ... ng-attempt
How China's fishermen are impoverishing Africa | The Spectator: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how ... africa/amp
Chinese fishing trawlers fined for being in South African waters - The Hindu: https://www.thehindu.com/news/internati ... 0.ece/amp/
Ghana: 5 Crew Members of Chinese Vessel Remanded for Illegal Fishing - allAfrica.com: https://allafrica.com/stories/202006050410.html
These are all reports only in 2020 about activity of Chinese fishing vessels in Latin America and Africa.

Most of the time their such behavior went unreported because fishing in open ocean is completely legal in international law on ocean, as long as they aren't infringing the 200 nautical miles exclusive economic zone off the coast of the near country (most of the few linked above are the rarer instances when they infringe those waters AND get caught - which many of times they aren't being caught due to the vast size of ocean), and the behavior in reverse, which is to try to extend control beyond 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zone or try to deny other countries' claim on their exclusive economic zone by singlesidedly pushing own interpretation on own's economiz zone, are what caused the current dispite in South China Sea and East China Sea.

Here we go the list of 24 Chinese companies engaged in PRC's illegal operation in the South China Sea and being slapped by US Department of Commerce:
From the Department's offcial press release:

China Communications Construction Company Dredging Group Co., Ltd.
China Communications Construction Company Tianjin Waterway Bureau
China Communications Construction Company Shanghai Waterway Bureau
China Communications Construction Company Guangzhou Waterway Bureau
China Communications Construction Company Second Navigation Engineering Bureau
Beijing Huanjia Telecommunication Co., Ltd.
Changzhou Guoguang Data Communications Co., Ltd.
China Electronics Technology Group Corporation, 7th Research Institute (CETC-7)
Guangzhou Hongyu Technology Co., Ltd., (a subordinate institute of CETC-7)
Guangzhou Tongguang Communication Technology Co., Ltd. (a subordinate institute of CETC-7)
China Electronics Technology Group Corporation, 30th Research Institute (CETC-30)
China Shipbuilding Group, 722nd Research Institute
Chongxin Bada Technology Development Co., Ltd.
Guangzhou Guangyou Communications Equipment Co., Ltd.
Guangzhou Haige Communication Group Co., Ltd.
Guilin Changhai Development Co., Ltd.
Hubei Guangxing Communications Technology Co., Ltd.
Shaanxi Changling Electronic Technology Co., Ltd.
Shanghai Cable Offshore Engineering Co., Ltd.
Telixin Electronics Technology Co., Ltd.
Tianjin Broadcasting Equipment Co., Ltd.
Tianjin 764 Avionics Technology Co., Ltd.
Tianjin 764 Communication and Navigation Technology Co., Ltd.
Wuhan Mailite Communication Co., Ltd.

As most of the mentioned companies named after the cities/provinces (Tianjin, Hubei, Wuhan, Beijing,...) or "China" (national companies), I assume that all of them are state-owned companies.

Antaras wrote:

Here we go the list of 24 Chinese companies engaged in PRC's illegal operation in the South China Sea and being slapped by US Department of Commerce:
From the Department's offcial press release:

China Communications Construction Company Dredging Group Co., Ltd.
China Communications Construction Company Tianjin Waterway Bureau
China Communications Construction Company Shanghai Waterway Bureau
China Communications Construction Company Guangzhou Waterway Bureau
China Communications Construction Company Second Navigation Engineering Bureau
Beijing Huanjia Telecommunication Co., Ltd.
Changzhou Guoguang Data Communications Co., Ltd.
China Electronics Technology Group Corporation, 7th Research Institute (CETC-7)
Guangzhou Hongyu Technology Co., Ltd., (a subordinate institute of CETC-7)
Guangzhou Tongguang Communication Technology Co., Ltd. (a subordinate institute of CETC-7)
China Electronics Technology Group Corporation, 30th Research Institute (CETC-30)
China Shipbuilding Group, 722nd Research Institute
Chongxin Bada Technology Development Co., Ltd.
Guangzhou Guangyou Communications Equipment Co., Ltd.
Guangzhou Haige Communication Group Co., Ltd.
Guilin Changhai Development Co., Ltd.
Hubei Guangxing Communications Technology Co., Ltd.
Shaanxi Changling Electronic Technology Co., Ltd.
Shanghai Cable Offshore Engineering Co., Ltd.
Telixin Electronics Technology Co., Ltd.
Tianjin Broadcasting Equipment Co., Ltd.
Tianjin 764 Avionics Technology Co., Ltd.
Tianjin 764 Communication and Navigation Technology Co., Ltd.
Wuhan Mailite Communication Co., Ltd.

As most of the mentioned companies named after the cities/provinces (Tianjin, Hubei, Wuhan, Beijing,...) or "China" (national companies), I assume that all of them are state-owned companies.

Quite a number of them are directly operated by the PLA

An article mentioned that Vietnam is trying to revive its F-5s jetfighters, which were looted from the Republic army after the Vietnam war:
https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/vietnam-could-bring-tigers-back-into-service
...and somehow it is related to the South China Sea situation????