ElPistolero wrote:

I suppose I would hope the same too if I were a Brexiteer.

Only if you would be a Brexitremist. For Brexitremists, Brexit is like a religion, regardless of the. consequences and the benefits, everything will be ok if there is the hardest Brexit possible, it is truly dogmatic.
So sad that many people will lose over this dogmatic point of view. It is what it is, from the outside we cannot change a thing. Change has to come from the inside, someone who actually has the power to stop this madness has to say: enough is enough.

Dutchy wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

I suppose I would hope the same too if I were a Brexiteer.

Brexit is like a religion.

I think you could say the same about the EU given the fantatics who adore it and will have nothing said against it.

Dutchy wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

I suppose I would hope the same too if I were a Brexiteer.

Only if you would be a Brexitremist. For Brexitremists, Brexit is like a religion, regardless of the. consequences and the benefits, everything will be ok if there is the hardest Brexit possible, it is truly dogmatic.
So sad that many people will lose over this dogmatic point of view. It is what it is, from the outside we cannot change a thing. Change has to come from the inside, someone who actually has the power to stop this madness has to say: enough is enough.

At this point, all Brexiteers are Brextremists. Any concession now feels like a shattering defeat to them, as we’re seeing on the state aid rules, where the UK may have made more concessions to Japan than it’s willing to make to the EU.

I suppose its understandable, given the absolute pounding Brexiteers taken from both within and without over the past 4 years, with quite literally nothing going to plan since Gove did his number on Johnson in 2016.

We’ve come a long way from the heady days of Brexiteers predicting IREXIT, to watching that small but impressively plucky nation dictate the fate of the “Global Britain” idea. That must really rankle Brexiteers in this age of “sovereignty” and “independence”.

Put yourself in their shoes - you’ll see what I mean.

noviorbis77 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

I suppose I would hope the same too if I were a Brexiteer.

Brexit is like a religion.

I think you could say the same about the EU given the fantatics who adore it and will have nothing said against it.

You could, but would it be true?

Nihilism is a defining trait of religious extremism. The only ones who’re posturing to blow everything up here are, well, not the EU. Everything - even fundamental principles (e.g. - rule of law) that purportedly underlie British nationhood appear to be sacrificable on the altar of Brexit.

That’s how you end up with Brexiteers saying things like this:

“We, the British government and parliament, have given our word. Our honour, our credibility, our self-respect and our future influence in the world all rest upon us keeping that word. Nothing less is worthy of Britain.”

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/geo ... is-s-bill-

And still cant find it in themselves to vote against a bill that they themselves claim is doing precisely that.

A101 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

A101 wrote:

IMB passed its 2nd reading,

I’m actually hoping it does not get up so there is more of a chance of the WA being rescinded in its entirety, one can only hope

Yes we know, you are all for maximum consequences and small Brittian, the uK has become a rogue state by not obeying international agreements. The consequences will be huge. The international role of Britain will be dead for years to come. It has lost any moral high ground it has. It is a crazy situation.

Your hope will become reality if this bill will be adopted. WA will be killed by the government and parliament which has been adopted.

I’m not a clairvoyant but, If the bill passes both houses BJ’s not going to kill the WA. That will be in the EU’s court if they don’t think they can work with the UK and the WA.

It's obvious that Dominic Cummings wants to force the EU to build economic/technical borders at the ports of the Republic of Ireland if the EU don't want to re-establish the intra-Irish border. Hence, it appears that Cummings somehow is believing that he can force the Republic of Ireland to have to choose between free access to the EU single market or having to set up an intra-Irish border.

Of course, it's far more likely that there would be a border poll if an agressive UK (i.e. England) reneges on the WA and forces a hard border in Ireland. However, Cummings' cunning plan is predicated on the false idea that "they need us more than we need them". What it will do, tough, is to lock the UK (i.e. UK = Rest-of-the-UK = little england in just a couple of years) out of a trade deal with the EU and with the US and severely strain supply chains in the UK (etc., etc. ..). Therefore, it would appear as if Cummings is not the genius he and Johnson think he is.

Now, what is hillarious, though, is that the typical dim brexiteer is seemingly unable to comprehend that the only country not ready for Brexit, even with a no deal, is the UK.

noviorbis77 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

ElPistolero wrote:

I suppose I would hope the same too if I were a Brexiteer.

Brexit is like a religion.

I think you could say the same about the EU given the fantatics who adore it and will have nothing said against it.

Realy? Most people I know are quite critical about the EU, but think overall it is a good idea.

ChrisKen wrote:

Brexit is all about the blame game. 40 years of it. 40 years of misdirection trying to cover their own incompetence and love of red tape. The days of being able to blame to EU for all their ills are just about over and it's nobody's fault but their own. Unfortunately the majority of the UK population that didn't choose this path will have to suffer the consequences, of which there will be many.

They'll find a way to blame the EU anyway.

ElPistolero wrote:

At this point, all Brexiteers are Brextremists. Any concession now feels like a shattering defeat to them, as we’re seeing on the state aid rules, where the UK may have made more concessions to Japan than it’s willing to make to the EU.

I suppose its understandable, given the absolute pounding Brexiteers taken from both within and without over the past 4 years, with quite literally nothing going to plan since Gove did his number on Johnson in 2016.
.

I am surprised at this, previously it was said that the EU has to pay more attention to the UK due to it geographic location.

ElPistolero wrote:

A101 wrote:

IMB passed its 2nd reading,

I’m actually hoping it does not get up so there is more of a chance of the WA being rescinded in its entirety, one can only hope

Already soured on last year’s WA “triumph“?

I suppose I would hope the same too if I were a Brexiteer.

Brexit is turning into the most pyrrhic of Pyrrhic victories. Spectacularly upstaged by Ireland, which now has disproportionate influence over two of the UK’s biggest future trade deals; forced to accept that last year’s WA “triumph” was anything but; publicly admitting breaking international law, either because Brexiteers negotiated the WA in bad faith, or because they didn’t comprehend what they signed up for... I could go on.

But I won’t. I’m hardly a Brexiteer, but even I’m beginning to feel sorry for them. Nothing seems to ever go to plan.

Throwing all the toys (WA, FTA) out of the pram at this point might have a lot of cathartic value.

Can’t sour on the triumph if I personally never wanted that abomination of an WA in the beginning can I, should have ended up in the rubbish bin where it belonged when parliament failed it 3 times.

The UK should never be in the position it is in because parliament voted for the electorate to have a say kept agreeing with the process then tied the government’s hands in trying to implement it, its like a boxer try to box with one arm

Dutchy wrote:

A101 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Clairvoyant? English is my second language, so I had to look up its meaning. I thought it was quite funny you're using a word which has a French origin, long live international cooperation. Bags the question why you would use it, perhaps google translate is doing its thing.
Anyhow, how would you subscribe a contract which is a one-sided amendment in key areas and thus makes the contract mute. The UK government is on record that this bill breaks international law, so this is not in discussion anymore. The consequence is that the WA is killed by this bill. Action - reaction. So yes, we have established a long time ago that you are not a clairvoyant.

I've actually used it many times within this forum,you would actually be very surprised how many words in English have French origins, dates back to the time of William the Bastard

Only form not substance from you yet again. Your premise that this doesn't kill the WA is false. This is all on the UK and their stand in Brexit. No finger-pointing to the EU, the UK, by. their own admission, are breaking the WA and thus international law.

Well if you think the IMB has killed it, why has no one rescinded it yet?

A101 wrote:

Can’t sour on the triumph if I personally never wanted that abomination of an WA in the beginning can I, should have ended up in the rubbish bin where it belonged when parliament failed it 3 times.

...but you were among those cheering the new WA along the lines of “they said it couldn’t be done”, correct?

Must feel like a lifetime ago. A telling reminder of the short-termism and lack of strategic vision that defines Brexiteers.

A101 wrote:

The UK should never be in the position it is in because parliament voted for the electorate to have a say kept agreeing with the process then tied the government’s hands in trying to implement it, its like a boxer try to box with one arm

The only people who put the UK in that position were the UK voters in the 2017 election. Brexiteers have my immense pity for being undermined by the very people they profess to put their faith in: their own political parties, and their fellow UK voters.

Once this entire episode concludes, it’s going to be interesting to watch how Brexiteers piece together the principles of British nationhood that they’ve shattered to get what they wanted - causing severe damaging to the key institutions and principles that made Britain “great”, whether it’s the union, international reputation, the independent judiciary, the world-class civil service, the notion of keeping one’s word, respect for the law, the social and civil fabric (Brexit’s impacts on networks of friends and families)... the list goes on.

Like I said, I understand your desire to bin the WA. It makes eminent sense if it’s the only way to get the hardest of hard Brexit's that Brexiteers now need to at least begin to justify the wreckage they’re leaving behind.

A101 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

A101 wrote:

I've actually used it many times within this forum,you would actually be very surprised how many words in English have French origins, dates back to the time of William the Bastard

Only form not substance from you yet again. Your premise that this doesn't kill the WA is false. This is all on the UK and their stand in Brexit. No finger-pointing to the EU, the UK, by. their own admission, are breaking the WA and thus international law.

Well if you think the IMB has killed it, why has no one rescinded it yet?

The ERG want it rescinded, as do most Brexiteers. Evidently some Brexiteers still want to try to pin the collapse on the EU although it looks like that ship sailed the moment the government stated it intended to breach international law.

I guess they’ll try again when the EU shuts things down for good in two weeks?

Baldr wrote:

A101 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Yes we know, you are all for maximum consequences and small Brittian, the uK has become a rogue state by not obeying international agreements. The consequences will be huge. The international role of Britain will be dead for years to come. It has lost any moral high ground it has. It is a crazy situation.

Your hope will become reality if this bill will be adopted. WA will be killed by the government and parliament which has been adopted.

I’m not a clairvoyant but, If the bill passes both houses BJ’s not going to kill the WA. That will be in the EU’s court if they don’t think they can work with the UK and the WA.

It's obvious that Dominic Cummings wants to force the EU to build economic/technical borders at the ports of the Republic of Ireland if the EU don't want to re-establish the intra-Irish border. Hence, it appears that Cummings somehow is believing that he can force the Republic of Ireland to have to choose between free access to the EU single market or having to set up an intra-Irish border.

I am looking forward to see plan B the EU has prepared to solve this conundrum. But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

AeroVega wrote:

I am looking forward to see plan B the EU has prepared to solve this conundrum. But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

Probably some kind of hard border/customs checks for all goods, while allowing easier transit for individuals crossing without goods.

And a mixture of legal measures, penalties, fines etc.

How badly it will play out depends on who you think the hard border is worse for - RoI or NI. The RoI is playing a strong diplomatic game in the US, so the response might not be limited to the EU.

ElPistolero wrote:

A101 wrote:

Can’t sour on the triumph if I personally never wanted that abomination of an WA in the beginning can I, should have ended up in the rubbish bin where it belonged when parliament failed it 3 times.

...but you were among those cheering the new WA along the lines of “they said it couldn’t be done”, correct?

Must feel like a lifetime ago. A telling reminder of the short-termism and lack of strategic vision that defines Brexiteers.

Of course I was happy to see the backstop gone and the failed attempt by the hostile devoutly Europhile’s within parliament with the no-deal Benn Act, saying BJ could not renegotiate the WA and would be the short serving UK PM in history. it was the those very same people within the Brussels corporate machine who were also saying and putting there foot down that they would not open the WA

But please do continue stirring the pot, it’s good watching pro-EU lobby tie themselves up with quips from long ago. Nothing new in that

ElPistolero wrote:

A101 wrote:

The UK should never be in the position it is in because parliament voted for the electorate to have a say kept agreeing with the process then tied the government’s hands in trying to implement it, its like a boxer try to box with one arm

The only people who put the UK in that position were the UK voters in the 2017 election. Brexiteers have my immense pity for being undermined by the very people they profess to put their faith in: their own political parties, and their fellow UK voters.

The negotiations hadn’t even started in earnest at the 2017 GE with the same Europhile’s at the helm, it’s not until the electorate saw the true colours of the EU/Europhile’s and we had a pro leave prime minister doing our biding the electorate would have taken a bat to the May Government

ElPistolero wrote:

Once this entire episode concludes, it’s going to be interesting to watch how Brexiteers piece together the principles of British nationhood that they’ve shattered to get what they wanted - causing severe damaging to the key institutions and principles that made Britain “great”, whether it’s the union, international reputation, the independent judiciary, the world-class civil service, the notion of keeping one’s word, respect for the law, the social and civil fabric (Brexit’s impacts on networks of friends and families)... the list goes on.

Like I said, I understand your desire to bin the WA. It makes eminent sense if it’s the only way to get the hardest of hard Brexit's that Brexiteers now need to at least begin to justify the wreckage they’re leaving behind.

I agree it’s been a shit show as soon as they put a pro-remain at the helm of negotiations to whom they didn’t have the foresight to put the EU in there place from the beginning, they forgot to whom they were indebted too certainly not beholden to Brussels incorporation

A101 wrote:

I agree it’s been a shit show as soon as they put a pro-remain at the helm of negotiations to whom they didn’t have the foresight to put the EU in there place from the beginning, they forgot to whom they were indebted too certainly not beholden to Brussels incorporation

Euh... the WA was negotiated, signed and sold to the British public as the best deal ever by arch Brexiteer Boris Johnson, wasn't it?

So, when exactly did Brexiteer Johnson notice his personal mistake then?

He cannot answer this simple question without identifying himself and his entire negotiating team as a bunch of fools or crooks.

Either he failed to understand a text that he signed up to, or he knew he was beaten by Brussels and mis-sold defeat as victory in a general election.

sabenapilot wrote:

A101 wrote:

I agree it’s been a shit show as soon as they put a pro-remain at the helm of negotiations to whom they didn’t have the foresight to put the EU in there place from the beginning, they forgot to whom they were indebted too certainly not beholden to Brussels incorporation

Euh... the WA was negotiated, signed and sold to the British public as the best deal ever by arch Brexiteer Boris Johnson, wasn't it?

So, when exactly did Brexiteer Johnson notice his personal mistake then?

He cannot answer this simple question without identifying himself and his entire negotiating team as a bunch of fools or crooks.

Either he failed to understand a text that he signed up to, or he knew he was beaten by Brussels and mis-sold defeat as victory in a general election.

I think he would have noticed when the EU didn’t bargin with good faith, he should have realise that when Brussels left May swinging in the wind when the WA was haveing trouble and was asking for changes to be made. Naive yes very much so on BJ part

A101 wrote:

The UK should never be in the position it is in because parliament voted for the electorate to have a say kept agreeing with the process then tied the government’s hands in trying to implement it, its like a boxer try to box with one arm

That's because everyone had their own idea of what Brexit was. Many Brexiteers will never admit it, they will just say Brexit means Brexit so everyone knew and voted for a hard / WTO Brexit. Which is entirely untrue.

Half the Brexiteers in the cabinet then and now all stated on record numerous times that we would never leave the single market, or that it was "project fear" that we'd leave without a deal.

What happened in Parliament was that those with a consience were trying to hold those people to those views and stick to a lighter Brexit. When those Conversative MPs suddenly changed their minds (due to party politics i.e staying in power or protecting a completely incompentant PM) all of a sudden WTO is fine and to hell with all Parliamentary procedures, rules and common sense. Those of the ERG always wanted a WTO but only for their own personal gains. They are a fringe group and should never every have had the power they have.

You can bang on about WTO being fine and how the WA was crap and it never should have passed. ALL of those people who are now trying to destroy the WA won an election off the back of it.. the "Oven ready deal". They voted for it. They refused to allow proper debate on it. Now they want to wash their hands of it because they NEVER READ THE FECKING THING!!!!

But the "EU isn't negotiating in good faith" BS!! The EU is doing nothing wrong, it's sticking to the WA. The only thing that has changed, is now things are being negotiated, Govenment is only just realising what the options are for NI. Everyone else warned about it at the time, and knew all along.

If it was not good enough it should never have been voted on, but it had to be, to protect Boris and the Tory party.

The entire thing is a monumental shi* show.

I blame Brexiteers for almost everything, for example not having had a plan (or even a word for) Northern Ireland during the Brexit campaign.

However the facts on the ground aren't the Brexiteers' fault, indeed most of them don't care about NI anyway. The UK wanting to be isolated from the EU is just a fundamental problem as long as there is a land border with the EU, and even more so because said border must stay totally open.

The Brexiteers had/have no solution because they didn't care, but also because there is no solution to be found, aside from putting the border elsewhere, inside the UK borders, which is what the WA does.

The main issue with that border, aside from the political one (border inside our borders, how is that possible ?), is the time cost, and money cost, for importers/exporters (only in the Britain => NI way though, unlike what BoJo pretends). Both these issues could be reduced if the UK government wanted to, for example the government could pay the duties instead of NI importers, then deal with getting reimbursed by the EU. They could also hire many border check personnel.

Aesma wrote:

The UK wanting to be isolated from the EU is just a fundamental problem as long as there is a land border with the EU, and even more so because said border must stay totally open.

The Brexiteers had/have no solution because they didn't care, but also because there is no solution to be found aside from putting the border elsewhere inside the UK borders, which is what the WA does.

It's because in the mind of Brexiteers the RoI is not really a foreign country; it's almost still a part of the United Kingdom itself to them, despite being independent for almost a century now, with people speaking the same language, sharing the same history and traveling within the same common travel area.
That's what they had and still have no solution for the catch 22 at the Irish border: they just forgot about it, or simply assumed the RoI would fall in line with whatever Westminster cooked up.

Much to their surprise, they now learn that the RoI is indeed a foreign country similar to the 26 other EU members and is valuing the relationship with the EU over that with the UK.

sabenapilot wrote:

Aesma wrote:

The UK wanting to be isolated from the EU is just a fundamental problem as long as there is a land border with the EU, and even more so because said border must stay totally open.

The Brexiteers had/have no solution because they didn't care, but also because there is no solution to be found aside from putting the border elsewhere inside the UK borders, which is what the WA does.

It's because in the mind of Brexiteers the RoI is not really a foreign country; it's almost still a part of the United Kingdom itself to them, despite being independent for almost a century now, with people speaking the same language, sharing the same history and traveling within the same common travel area.
That's what they had and still have no solution for the catch 22 at the Irish border: they just forgot about it, or simply assumed the RoI would fall in line with whatever Westminster cooked up.

Much to their surprise, they now learn that the RoI is indeed a foreign country similar to the 26 other EU members and is valuing the relationship with the EU over that with the UK.

I think very much is the true from a ROI perspective.. In London noone ever considered ROI to be able to have its own voice against UK.

Ursula von der Leyen held her State of the Union at the European Parliament today (exceptionally in Brussels, because of COVID-19): during her trilingual speech of more than 1 hour, she barely mentioned Brexit, but reminded everybody once more the EU will always stand with the Republic of Ireland as it is a EU Member and warned the UK not to tamper with the WA.
It's an international treaty and it cannot be unilaterally changed, disregarded or dis-applied: no backtracking will be tolerated.
She then quoted PM Thatcher's words: "Britain does not break treaties. It would be bad for Britain, bad for relations with the rest of the world, and bad for any future treaty on trade.”

Brexit, along with changing attitudes toward colonialism and racism is causing several Commonwealth nations to consider ending the Queen/King as Head of State. Barbados currently on the way to do that, to become a Republic although remaining a Commonwealth member for trade and other purposes. https://www.yahoo.com/news/queen-says-r ... 02934.html

Isn't is ironic that the Republic of Ireland has and continues to be a major deal breaker as to Brexit, getting revenge for the partition of the island almost 100 years ago in the creation of the ROI.

I don't like the concept of a hereditary King/Queen as head of state, as a true Frenchman, but having the King/Queen of another far away country as the head of your state doesn't make even a little bit of sense.

sabenapilot wrote:

Either this government is completely incompetent to the point of disbelief

I believe it is very, very incompetent. Never known any UK government this incapable before. What they say they will do bears little or no resemblance to what they actually do

sabenapilot wrote:

or it deliberately acts in such a way as to milk the only issue it seems to be preoccupied about -an artificial feud with the EU- forever? :

Not inconceivable.

What a rabbit hole we've gotten down to at this point - absolutely stunning. It becomes clearer and clearer every day that the basis for what Brexiteers thought could be achieved by Brexit was led by them having absolutely no clue whatsoever about nearly all aspects of international trade, fishing, immigration, finance, food/farming yet thinking that all of them were very easy issues to navigate. Everything is easy when you are completely clueless about realities on the ground.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

It is of every advantage to the people of NI to remain both in the UK and the EU, it gives them freedoms most of us, including this US citizen, can only dream of. They can visit, work, have access to medical care, retire, and eventually die (estate settlement a matter of known laws) in all of Europe and all of the UK. The price - customs line needs to be in the Irish Sea, a condition that will have little effect on the day to day life of any resident.

Its actually a good arrangement for all parties assuming that, like me, you're not a Unionist. Theresa May rejected the idea due to being a Unionist and finding the prospect of an Irish Sea border to be unacceptable but Boris managed to get the same deal and sell it to Unionists as a victory.

Dutchy wrote:

A101 wrote:

normal security arrangements Do you agree that a border exists between Switzerland and France would that mean normal security arrangements in your opinion?

This is what the border between France and Switzerland looks like:

Funfact: Swiss Customs close at 1730 on a Friday and do not open again until 0800 on a Monday. Any trucks not through by 1730 have to wait the whole weekend to be processed. Freight forwarders hate it. Thankfully no goods lorries cross the Irish Sea during the weekend, right?

olle wrote:

This is indeed the Brexiteer problem. Break international law and agreements and Global Britain is out of the window. The world is actually watching the next step of BJ government right now.

Why would anyone sign an FTA with the UK (not that they look set to at the moment - so much for dozens of trade deals being signed on Day One of being outside the EU) if they cannot be trusted to follow the agreement.

Dutchy wrote:

As has been pointed out to you before: "Britain will on Wednesday unveil legislation that it admits breaks international law by rewriting parts of its Brexit divorce treaty relating to Northern Ireland, sparking widespread criticism and clouding the latest round of fraught EU trade talks." And let me take a wild guess: you will say, no no, Johnson does not pull out of the WA, no he is only altering it, one-sided. The end result is the same, the WA is dead if this bill is adopted. Can you please not attack everyone if one word is not to your liking? You are not a lawyer, this is not a courtroom. It is tiresome and childess of you.

From the article:

Responding to a question in parliament, Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis conceded: "Yes, this does break international law in a very specific and limited way."

Don't worry folks, it's OK to break the law so long as you only do so in a very specific and limited way! Such a precedent that this sets: "don't worry officer, I was only breaking the Criminal Law Act of 1967 in a very specific and limited way when I stabbed someone I don't like". Imagine the precedent for HMRC! "Don't worry HMRC, I only broke the law by not paying VAT owed to HM Government in a very specific and limited way"! What a clownshow the Westminster Government has become.

Of course in situations such as this you can only imagine the amount of noise that Brexiteers would be making if it was the big bad EU breaking the WA! Just imagine if French fishing boats start fishing in British waters illegally (but only in a very specific and limited way ).

Aesma wrote:

I thought trying to blame the EU for the failure of the talks was going to be a stretch before this internal market bill saga, but now it's become ridiculous.

Anyone with two brain cells can see that BoJo signed, and made his MPs sign, and forced the Lords to sign, a treaty, telling it was the best thing since sliced bread, campaigned on it, won an election on it, and now, a few months later, is saying it's horse manure. No way to blame the EU for that !

Indeed. I'm wondering about the logic behind the latest move to break International Law and to be honest I'm split as to whether it was part of some strategy or not.

On one hand everyone in Downing Street is so incredibly clueless that it's hard for me to imagine them having planned anything in detail back in December last year and having followed through with it - much more likely that they'd have just aimed to get the Withdrawal Act passed and deal with figuring out the details later....

On the other hand, Boris did consistently say that there would be no border checks between NI and UK - something that everybody all along knew was completely contrary to the Withdrawal Agreement, even though Brexiteers and BoJo kept pretending it wasn't. And forcing the EU to build customs posts at the NI border as a result of violating the Withdrawal Agreement is something straight up Cummings' street.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

There will, however, be smugglers wanting to take advantage. I think that can be controlled.

How?

ElPistolero wrote:

The weirdness just never ends. According to the Financial Times titled: Japan trade deal commits UK to stricter state aid curbs than in EU talks

“In the bilateral UK-Japan agreement announced in principle on Friday, London and Tokyo have agreed to replicate the restrictions on subsidies in the EU-Japan deal that went into effect last year. That agreement prohibits the governments from indefinitely guaranteeing the debts of struggling companies or providing an open-ended bailout without a clear restructuring plan in place.

By contrast, the UK has repeatedly told the EU that it must have total freedom over state aid after the end of the Brexit transition period with complete autonomy over future subsidy decisions, subject to WTO rules.”

https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b ... b2247fa178

Well clearly that doesn't matter so long as the UK only breaks the Free Trade Agreement in "a very specific and limited way".

So what that means in effect is that all the disagreements about state aid between the UK and EU is just pure grandstanding so that Boris, Cummings, JRM and Gove can drive the country off the no-deal cliff?

ElPistolero wrote:

On a separate note, what a blinder Ireland has played. A population of 5 million, and no military or international presence to speak off, but they’ve somehow ended up with absurdly oversized influence over the fate of both the EU-UK and UK-US trade relationships.

It's a point of contention for the English Nationalists haha. For the first time in history (?) Ireland has power over the UK, not the other way around. Remember all the headlines last year in Brexiteer newspapers (82% of the UK press, by circulation) saying that the EU was going to put Varadkar in his place?

ChrisKen wrote:

Brexit is all about the blame game. 40 years of it. 40 years of misdirection trying to cover their own incompetence and love of red tape. The days of being able to blame to EU for all their ills are just about over and it's nobody's fault but their own. Unfortunately the majority of the UK population that didn't choose this path will have to suffer the consequences, of which there will be many.

Personally, I think that no deal will offer the UK a great opportunity for self-reflection. Without the dastardly EU to blame for everything, surely their politicians will be forced to take some responsibility for the consequences of their actions? Of course I'm not actually expecting them to take it.

Dutchy wrote:

Really? Most people I know are quite critical about the EU, but think overall it is a good idea.

Likewise although all of them seem to have become much less critical of the EU overall as its benefits became clear during Brexit negotiations. I can only think of one person I know who thinks worse of the EU now and she is a Swiss lady who thinks that all of the EU is some big cabal to surround Switzerland and spite it or something.

A101 wrote:

Can’t sour on the triumph if I personally never wanted that abomination of an WA in the beginning can I, should have ended up in the rubbish bin where it belonged when parliament failed it 3 times.

And yet I'm confident that if anyone here could be bothered, we could go into your posts from one year or so ago and find half a dozen of them saluting its genius. But of course that was in the good old days when Boris was supporting the WA.

Res smugglers: 'Normal' smuggling which crosses all borders will obviously continue happening. Other safe and legitimate goods and food stuffs crossing into NI (and the other direction into the rest of the UK ) which are for local consumption can be monitored for quantity. A NI grocery store which typically sells a truckload of groceries a day from England could continue to get about that amount (probably leaving the chlorinated chicken behind!) British Columbia and Washington State have that sort of 'trade' all of the time, and it doesn't seem to create problems. Fruit is a no no, however, wine is limited, although we mistakenly brought one extra bottle in once.

zkojq wrote:

Funfact: Swiss Customs close at 1730 on a Friday and do not open again until 0800 on a Monday. Any trucks not through by 1730 have to wait the whole weekend to be processed. Freight forwarders hate it. Thankfully no goods lorries cross the Irish Sea during the weekend, right?

Another fun fact: Switzerland signed two series of treaties with the EU. In many regards, Switzerland is an EU country. The same food safety regulations. We have the European Health Insurance Card. We can settle anywhere in the EU. We are members of the Schengen area (but not the Customs Union). Switzerland takes part in EU research programmes.

Hell would break loose if we cancelled these treaties. Right-wingers and farmers want to abolish them, and try to do so since about 20 years.

The picture that Dutchy shared - the open frontier to France - is misleading, because Switzerland has a VERY close relationship to the EU. One that the UK doesn't want to have at all.

A101 wrote:

Of course I was happy to see the backstop gone

... and, like many Brexiteers, evidently “happy to see” it replaced by a border down the Irish Sea. Not a smart move, eh?

A101 wrote:

and the failed attempt by the hostile devoutly Europhile’s within parliament with the no-deal Benn Act, saying BJ could not renegotiate the WA and would be the short serving UK PM in history.

Sounds like Brexiteers got so angry about that, they decided to cut their nose off to spite their face. And didn’t even think about the bigger picture.

A101 wrote:

it was the those very same people within the Brussels corporate machine who were also saying and putting there foot down that they would not open the WA

Not sure there’s much to celebrate when, despite securing the alleged “triumph” of reopening negotiations, Brexiteers proceeded to make a mess of the actual renegotiation, as we are seeing today. But I guess when one is desperate for good news stories, anything counts?

A101 wrote:

But please do continue stirring the pot, it’s good watching pro-EU lobby tie themselves up with quips from long ago. Nothing new in that

Sure. I‘m happy that you’re happy.

A101 wrote:

The negotiations hadn’t even started in earnest at the 2017 GE with the same Europhile’s at the helm, it’s not until the electorate saw the true colours of the EU/Europhile’s and we had a pro leave prime minister doing our biding the electorate would have taken a bat to the May Government

True colours? Sounds more like a case of Brexiteer fantasy colliding with reality. Brexiteers thought the EU would bend over for them. The EU didn’t. Brexiteers changed PMs. They thought this would make the EU bend over for them. The EU didn’t. Rinse. Repeat.

Brexiteers can keep changing PMs and shifting the goal posts, but sooner or later Brexiteers are going to have to convince their remainer family and friends that what they promised to deliver, and what they actually delivered, are consistent. Frankly, I don’t think Brexiteers can.

This is the kind of stuff that sows multi-generational distrust and fuels culture wars. I hope the UK avoids it, but I’m not yet convinced it will. Unfortunately, Brexiteers will now have to own it.

A101 wrote:

I agree it’s been a shit show as soon as they put a pro-remain at the helm of negotiations to whom they didn’t have the foresight to put the EU in there place from the beginning, they forgot to whom they were indebted too certainly not beholden to Brussels incorporation

As soon as “they” put a pro-remain at the helm? Who are “they”?

May became PM because of the frankly amazing performances put in by Brexiteers Leadsom, Johnson and Gove. And now the same people are running the show with Brexiteer support and - one might dare suggest - entirely predictable results.

flyingturtle wrote:

The picture that Dutchy shared - the open frontier to France - is misleading, because Switzerland has a VERY close relationship to the EU. One that the UK doesn't want to have at all.

Why is it misleading? I know Switzerland is much closer than Johnson now wants (not so much when he campaigned for Brexit) for the UK to the EU. The point of showing those photos was the difference in infrastructure on the border. People of the Irish Iles will not accept any infrastructure on the Irish - UK, none.

Sabenapilot

You refer to the shared history between the UK and the Irish Republic.

If you look a bit closer, you will find that it was not entirely a happy relationship from the Irish point of view.

The UK Government would be somewhat optimistic if they expect Ireland to damage it's links to the EU to help get Boris and co out of the present mess.

flyingturtle wrote:

zkojq wrote:

Funfact: Swiss Customs close at 1730 on a Friday and do not open again until 0800 on a Monday. Any trucks not through by 1730 have to wait the whole weekend to be processed. Freight forwarders hate it. Thankfully no goods lorries cross the Irish Sea during the weekend, right?

Another fun fact: Switzerland signed two series of treaties with the EU. In many regards, Switzerland is an EU country. The same food safety regulations. We have the European Health Insurance Card. We can settle anywhere in the EU. We are members of the Schengen area (but not the Customs Union). Switzerland takes part in EU research programmes.

Indeed, the EU-Swiss border is very light touch since it only concerns custom duty payments, NO regulatory issues: everything (and obviously also everybody) can come in just like that, it's only a matter of checking duties paid on certain goods.

On the EU-UK border in Ireland, the matter will not just be about duties paid, but also regulatory checks on goods as well as immigration checks on people on top: it's the full option so to say and it simply can not happen along the irish border in honour of the GFA.

zkojq wrote:

And yet I'm confident that if anyone here could be bothered, we could go into your posts from one year or so ago and find half a dozen of them saluting its genius. But of course that was in the good old days when Boris was supporting the WA.

Exactly. King Boris showed those nasty Europeans how to negotiate and told us all it was a great new deal. The Brexitards cheered and wept tears of joy. Now all of a sudden, King Boris appears to have no clothes. If it wasn't so predictably tragic, it would be hilarious.

Dutchy wrote:

flyingturtle wrote:

The picture that Dutchy shared - the open frontier to France - is misleading, because Switzerland has a VERY close relationship to the EU. One that the UK doesn't want to have at all.

Why is it misleading? I know Switzerland is much closer than Johnson now wants (not so much when he campaigned for Brexit) for the UK to the EU. The point of showing those photos was the difference in infrastructure on the border. People of the Irish Iles will not accept any infrastructure on the Irish - UK, none.

Why it is misleading? sabenapilot gave the answer just a bit later, in #935.

And about not accepting border infrastructure:

How exactly is the EU going to protect its own market, namely, the influx of goods that are not conforming to the EU standards?

Mr. Boris Jenius-Johnson said there were technological solutions. But he still has presented none. UK or NI businesses are going to make a killing with non-standard products that they can introduce otherwise...

Mr Biden and Democtrats says that GFA cannot become a victim of Brexit ;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ction-2020

flyingturtle wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

flyingturtle wrote:

The picture that Dutchy shared - the open frontier to France - is misleading, because Switzerland has a VERY close relationship to the EU. One that the UK doesn't want to have at all.

Why is it misleading? I know Switzerland is much closer than Johnson now wants (not so much when he campaigned for Brexit) for the UK to the EU. The point of showing those photos was the difference in infrastructure on the border. People of the Irish Iles will not accept any infrastructure on the Irish - UK, none.

Why it is misleading? sabenapilot gave the answer just a bit later, in #935.

And about not accepting border infrastructure:

How exactly is the EU going to protect its own market, namely, the influx of goods that are not conforming to the EU standards?

Mr. Boris Jenius-Johnson said there were technological solutions. But he still has presented none. UK or NI businesses are going to make a killing with non-standard products that they can introduce otherwise...

Exctly, and that is of course not acceptable for the EU, thus, if no adequete measures are introduced by the UK - effectively placing the EU-UK border in the Irish sea and the border infrastructure on the British side, the EU has no other option than introducting a hard border within Ireland. It is a consequence of the BoJo's stand. And that will look like the picture I posted. The proposed technological solutions are not adequete and are not even developed yet. In practice, any physical infrastructure is a breach of the GFA and good lead to the troubles again. Thus basically we are in agreement.

scbriml wrote:

zkojq wrote:

And yet I'm confident that if anyone here could be bothered, we could go into your posts from one year or so ago and find half a dozen of them saluting its genius. But of course that was in the good old days when Boris was supporting the WA.

Exactly. King Boris showed those nasty Europeans how to negotiate and told us all it was a great new deal. The Brexitards cheered and wept tears of joy. Now all of a sudden, King Boris appears to have no clothes. If it wasn't so predictably tragic, it would be hilarious.

Boris Johnson has been quite transparent actually. He said from the start that his goal of negotiation with the EU was having his cake and eating it. And that's what he is trying to do.

Immediately after signing the WA he said that there would not be a custom's border between NI and the UK mainland. And that's what he is putting into practice now.

This makes it clear that he signed the WA only so that trade negotiations could start, and that he intended to renege on the WA it trade negotiations did not go his way. That is of course the definition of negotiating in bad faith. But according to him the EU is negotiating in bad faith because the EU is not giving him what he wants.

Lesson for the EU: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

AeroVega wrote:

But according to him the EU is negotiating in bad faith because the EU is not giving him what he wants.

This is hilarious and sad at the same time. I give you not a million bucks and no I do things in bad faith. But indeed that is the attitude of Brexiteers, finger-pointing without looking at their own role. No reflection.

Dutchy wrote:

AeroVega wrote:

But according to him the EU is negotiating in bad faith because the EU is not giving him what he wants.

This is hilarious and sad at the same time. I give you not a million bucks and no I do things in bad faith. But indeed that is the attitude of Brexiteers, finger-pointing without looking at their own role. No reflection.

The “EU bad faith” claim is simply ridiculous.
UK knows the EU’s 3rd country rules and obligations since before the referendum. Whether it’s export procedures or SPS rules were the rules UK applied to 3rd countries as a EU MS.
Yet, somehow, these are the rules seems now to surprise HMG. How dare they claim EU is acting in bad faith when it’s doing everything everybody knew it would do ?

EU is looking at its own interests by wanting to stick to its rule and principles applicable to 3rd countries. If we have to consider this approach as “bad faith” we may as well simply consider the UK wasn’t ready to play with the big boys.

https://twitter.com/ProfBrianCox/status ... 2262676480

So the US Congress has said explicitly that there will be no trade with Britain if the UK doesn't put the Good Friday Agreement at risk with the Internal Markets Bill. Joe Biden has said broadly the same.

So that leave the UK with no Free Trade Agreement with the US and no Free Trade Agreement with the EU (since the UK refuses to negotiate in good faith). So Boris has successfully excluded the ~1 billion wealthiest consumers on the planet from Free Trade with the UK. How is that supposed to work out economically? Remember how Brexit was going to bring in loads of benifits and make everyone richer? And then the tangible benefits were going to be felt in 50 years time? What's the current forecast on that?

I look forwards to hearing a cry of "we knew what we were voting for" from one of our resident brexiteers.

zkojq wrote:

I look forwards to hearing a cry of "we knew what we were voting for" from one of our resident brexiteers.

They will tell you that US Democrats (will conveniently ignore the Republicans also agree) obviously don't understand how the EU is bullying the UK, and how they would be stopping the UK from getting a Brexit that would allow a trade deal with the US.

Except I suspect most of the people who signed that letter and a certain US Democrat who had a 6 minute meeting with Raab yesterday know more about the Good Friday agreement and exactly what the UK Govenment is trying to do, than most of the fools pretending to be MPs in the Tory party. Party and Leader before country, has never been such a valid phrase in UK politics.

The UK has started to inform its citizens that travel after December 31st will be impacted due to Brexit. Oddly, they're earlier with this than in the EU.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54193083

Maybe one big benefit of Brexit. Less bachelor parties in Amsterdam and maybe cheaper holidays in Spain/Portugal/Greece next year......

zkojq wrote:

https://twitter.com/ProfBrianCox/status ... 2262676480

So the US Congress has said explicitly that there will be no trade with Britain if the UK doesn't put the Good Friday Agreement at risk with the Internal Markets Bill. Joe Biden has said broadly the same.

So that leave the UK with no Free Trade Agreement with the US and no Free Trade Agreement with the EU (since the UK refuses to negotiate in good faith). So Boris has successfully excluded the ~1 billion wealthiest consumers on the planet from Free Trade with the UK. How is that supposed to work out economically? Remember how Brexit was going to bring in loads of benifits and make everyone richer? And then the tangible benefits were going to be felt in 50 years time? What's the current forecast on that?

I look forwards to hearing a cry of "we knew what we were voting for" from one of our resident brexiteers.

Indeed. Seems the US intervention has really rattled Brexiteers at the pro-Brexit Telegraph. Not one, but two opinion pieces today on why Brits must hope Biden does not get elected.

“The awkward truth is that, if Britain is to become a “trading superpower” after Brexit, the Johnson administration should want Donald Trump to be re-elected.”
...
“ We need The Donald far more than The Donald needs us. As far as Brexit is concerned, four more years of Trump might be the only way to stop Obama’s old warning coming true.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... residency/

“ Biden’s stance on a trade deal between Britain and United States may well be dictated in Dublin and Brussels. If talks with the EU collapse, as it looks they will, then Biden will side with the EU, and Brussels will want Britain to be left in the cold out of pure spite.”
...
“ In normal circumstances, we might be relaxed about a change in the White House – but right now, the economy needs Trump to win.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -election/

Evidently Brexiteers are so committed to “sovereignty” and “independence” that they’ve put the UK in a position where it’s fate is now tied to the electoral fortunes of one foreign individual in an election they have literally no say in.

I suppose we could laugh at this absurdity - their quixotic inability to identify contradictions in their own long-professed belief. But it’s so pathetic one would have to be heartless to not feel a little sorry for them.

ElPistolero wrote:

Evidently Brexiteers are so committed to “sovereignty” and “independence” that they’ve put the UK in a position where it’s fate is now tied to the electoral fortunes of one foreign individual in an election they have literally no say in.

I suppose we could laugh at this absurdity - their quixotic inability to identify contradictions in their own long-professed belief. But it’s so pathetic one would have to be heartless to not feel a little sorry for them.

It was entirely predictable. House Democrats came out when the WA was released and said make sure you keep to it, and don't touch the GFA or border on the mainland because a trade deal is at risk if you do. Now they've written and said it in louder, plainer words. I guess the original warning was Project fear, or the remainers in Govenment got to them?

https://news.yahoo.com/trumps-northern- ... 45888.html
No Guarantees with Trump still in power either.

Blame anyone but themselves. Liars, cheats, charlatans the lot of them. Brexit is a religion that must be delivered at any cost, and who cares what relationships are burned or damage is done as a result.

ElPistolero wrote:

Indeed. Seems the US intervention has really rattled Brexiteers at the pro-Brexit Telegraph. Not one, but two opinion pieces today on why Brits must hope Biden does not get elected.

I wonder if it matters if Trump or Biden is in the White House. Seems that the current US government is also not thrilled about UKs plans.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/18/brexit-trump-envoy-warns-of-risk-of-ireland-border-by-accident

Also, while Trump has a reasonable chance of winning the election, due to the electoral college being so unfair, the House is almost certain to stay Blue, and there is no trade deal without the House voting for it.

People tend to forgot that MAGA stands for Make America Great Again.

It says nothing about Britain.

It would be naïve to think that a Trump WH is not going to play hardball.

Democrats still holds the house independent of Trump or not.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54194339

'The Road Haulage Association has described its meeting with Michael Gove about post-Brexit arrangements as "a washout".

The body said there had been "no clarity" from the senior minister on how border checks will operate when the transition period ends after December'.

There is not a lot of time to get things in place.