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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:34 pm

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:



there's no way to correct the historic mistake for the UK.



Mistake no; the only mistakes are from Government who negotiated a terrible WA in the 1st place and a Parliament who in my view were treasonous in thinking that the UK had to have a bad deal to leave the EU.

No deal was always better than a bad deal


Big words: "treasonous". How can a Parliament be treasonous if it is sovereign to decide what it wants?

Everything else you wrote is your opinion and we know your opinion so not really relevant for this.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:38 pm

Let's not discuss what has (not) happened nor should have happened since 2016, shall we?
Instead; let's just look ahead...

Brexit Britain is about to lose its best friend: in 76 days, merely 20 days after the transition period will come to an end, it will be send to the back of the queue for that all important US FTA which allegedly was to make good for the loss of EU membership...
What's more: it can stay there forever if it doesn't back down on its crazy plans to violate the GFA as Biden is known to be uncompromising on this.

Interesting times ahead:
if the UK wants to save the special relationship, it needs to climb down all the way to the ground and soon, or it will become an international pariah.
Normality is soon going to return to the international scene and Brexit Britain will look very very weird and out-of-touch with the new times ahead.
Brexiteers better update their speech software: all the insults and the grandspeak can finally be left out as the asylum is about to be closed.

The Brexit dream is over: as from now it's just vassalage remaining, something which Mr. Barnier has also told BoJo today: "the UK needs to internalize what it needs to do to get to a deal". Diplomatic talk for: sign on the dotted line.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:38 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

Brexit Britain is about to lose its best friend: in 76 days, merely 20 days after the transition period will come to an end, it will be send to the back of the queue for that all important US FTA which allegedly was to make good for the loss of EU membership...



In my humble opinion I believe the relationship between the UK/US is bigger than Brexit and bigger than the incumbents of political institutions at any one time, whilst we may not always agree it won’t break down irreparably. The US is our biggest trade partner to a single nation and that won’t change I believe in the future.

A trade deal with the US was never going to be about loss of EU membership it is more about enhancing the relationship between an independent UK and the US. I’m not particularly concerned if we do not get a trade deal with the US as the US in the long term will not want to weaken the UK too much politically or economically

sabenapilot wrote:
What's more: it can stay there forever if it doesn't back down on its crazy plans to violate the GFA as Biden is known to be uncompromising on this.


Once again please show where we violate the Belfast Agreement


sabenapilot wrote:

Interesting times ahead:
if the UK wants to save the special relationship, it needs to climb down all the way to the ground and soon, or it will become an international pariah.


I don’t think we have to climb down from anywhere, if anything the Government should repudiate the WA in full

sabenapilot wrote:

Normality is soon going to return to the international scene and Brexit Britain will look very very weird and out-of-touch with the new times ahead.


An independent UK could be the new normality, international treaty are often in dispute in some shape or form

sabenapilot wrote:
Brexit is over: as from now it's just vassalage remaining.


Sad to say but I think you are right under the treasonous WA perpetuated by the former Government/parliament, and most likely FTA with the EU always my biggest fear for a BRINO

Let’s hope Johnson has the temperament to salvage the situation by repudiating the WA in full
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:45 pm

A101 wrote:
Sad to say but I think you are right under the treasonous WA perpetuated by the former Government/parliament,


I guess you missed the post, so again: Big words: "treasonous". How can a Parliament be treasonous if it is sovereign to decide what it wants?

Everything else you wrote is your opinion and we know your opinion so not really relevant for this.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:55 pm

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
What's more: it can stay there forever if it doesn't back down on its crazy plans to violate the GFA as Biden is known to be uncompromising on this.


Once again please show where we violate the Belfast Agreement


sabenapilot wrote:

Interesting times ahead:
if the UK wants to save the special relationship, it needs to climb down all the way to the ground and soon, or it will become an international pariah.


I don’t think we have to climb down from anywhere, if anything the Government should repudiate the WA in full


Look, not respecting the NIP, part of the WA leads to breach of GFA because it would mean a full blown border between ROI and EI. Of course no one will go there because grown up knows what would that mean, thus find other solutions (read below) but that's the way it is.
We all know you disagree wih that, and most of the posters in here disagree with you too, so maybe it's time to stop arguing about that each and every time.

To the point sabenapilot was making, it seems your "biggest trade partner to a single nation" may in fact be ready to support policies to "weaken the UK too much politically or economically" if UK government doesn't uphold the Northern Ireland Protocol.

Let's read what the "United States Special Envoy for Northern Ireland", Mick Mulvaney, says about the topic maybe ?
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status ... 01440?s=20

Asked about the concerns in the US over the IMB, which breaches the NI Protocol, Mr Mulvaney said that in his meetings with all sides his worry was that the Bill could result in a border “by accident”.
He told the presentation: “The best response I got on the matter was from Simon Coveney when I met with him in Dublin.
“I said to him..., look, Simon, my fear is this: there’s a no deal Brexit. The IMB kicks in, the Brits don’t want to put up a border on the island, because they know what that means, the Irish don’t want to put up a border across the island because they know what that means.
“The Europeans come in and say, well, if you’re not going to control the flow of goods from outside of the [European] Union [to] inside the Union, from Belfast to Dublin, for the sake of this discussion, we’re going to force you to ring the whole island of Ireland in order to protect the European market, that would put tremendous pressure on the Irish to do something.”
Mulvaney said that Mr Coveney had responded that he could see that scenario on paper.
However, Mr Mulvaney said the Minister had added that “in reality there are much larger much more powerful levers the Europeans could pull under those circumstances than a border across the island of Ireland.


Sure, US government may change soon, the wording could prove more diplomatic, but a Biden administration too would support EU to use adequates levers to make sure NIP is uphold by UK.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:27 pm

Honoring the GFA will be a get-out-of-jail card for the UK. The US and EU knows it will be difficult and are very likely to give UK the benefit on other items is the letter and spirit are observed. At least I will expect the US to reward the UK in some meaningful ways.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I guess you missed the post, so again: Big words: "treasonous". How can a Parliament be treasonous if it is sovereign to decide what it wants?


Treason is a synonym for betrayal

Did Parliament not give its consent to the electorate for a referenda to remain or leave the EU, did the majority of the electorate vote to leave the EU in the only poll that counts: YES, on both counts

Did Parliament say no to PM Mays WA 3 times, did Parliament create the conditions that lead to Johnson renegotiate the WA instead of rejecting it in full which lead to a sub-standard WA to the detriment of the UK as a whole: YES, on both counts.

The prior Parliament rejected the softest of exist and the hardest of exists in order to help facilitate remain, the facts remain that the previous Parliament conspired and revolted against the majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU, a betrayal of the highest magnitude which is comparable to treason.

Parliament as the representative to the electorate has to have the moral fortitude to get the best possible deal for the country, in this they have failed remarkably. Theresa Mays catchcry “No deal is better than a bad deal” is still the better position, pity she did not have the determination to stand by it. Brussels is not stupid if no deal eventuates a series of mini deals will be fourth coming very quickly



Dutchy wrote:
Everything else you wrote is your opinion and we know your opinion so not really relevant for this.



All opinions are valid, even those you disagree with.
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:31 pm

A series of mini deals in which the UK plays countries off against each other to unravel the EU.

Sorry to tell you that they will not fall for it.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:53 pm

Grizzly140 wrote:
Look, not respecting the NIP, part of the WA leads to breach of GFA because it would mean a full blown border between ROI and EI. Of course no one will go there because grown up knows what would that mean, thus find other solutions (read below) but that's the way it is.

A border down the frontier does nor breech the Belfast agreement, I keep banging on about it because people here keep perpetuating the myth
Grizzly140 wrote:
To the point sabenapilot was making, it seems your "biggest trade partner to a single nation" may in fact be ready to support policies to "weaken the UK too much politically or economically" if UK government doesn't uphold the Northern Ireland Protocol.


Everyone supports a policy to try and keep the frontier as frictionless as possible including the UK, but that doesn’t support the perceptions that the UK is in material breach of the Belfast Agreement.

Also, a weakened UK is not in the interests of the US politically or economically irrespective of Biden ties with the Irish. But I will say it again I am not worried if no agreement is concluded with the US, just as I am in favour of repudiating the WA and no deal with the EU

Grizzly140 wrote:
Let's read what the "United States Special Envoy for Northern Ireland", Mick Mulvaney, says about the topic maybe ?
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status ... 01440?s=20


Really all that shows is that the "United States Special Envoy for Northern Ireland" are more worried about the undue influence of Brussels on Dublin if they do not get there way, any future border down the frontier is a direct result of Brussels not London has already conceded to Brussels far too much, as Brussels weaponised the frontier for political reasons.

The IMB is there to protect the UK internal market in which NI is a part of which in turn protects the Belfast Agreement until NI ever decides it wants to merge with Éire. The Belfast Agreement nor the WA concedes UK/NI sovereign territory to the ROI/EU
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:56 pm

bennett123 wrote:
A series of mini deals in which the UK plays countries off against each other to unravel the EU.

Sorry to tell you that they will not fall for it.


Not sure where you get that idea as even in a series of mini deals the UK will be dealing with Brussels as its negotiator.

Both the EU/UK do not want to see a disruption to trade
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:21 am

sabenapilot wrote:
The US election result is terrible news for the UK.

I don't really think so: Trump wouldn't have handed any favours to Johnson; Trump's enthusiasm for Brexit was exclusively to weaken and isolate the UK so Trump could screw the UK that much more effectively.

Biden will no doubt drive a hard bargain and put a lot more emphasis on the GfA, but the latter would have been a big issue for the US Congress even under Trump anyway.

And the US lobby groups will push Biden just as hard and he'll listen, too.

So the same reasons why the EU doesn't have a big FTA with the US will be problematic for the UK as well, just with the UK having a lot fewer options to resist them.

Either Biden wins outright and then it's a return to the back of the queue for BoJo OR it takes weeks to sort out who'll be the next president and then Brexit takes the backburner everywhere...

I don't think it's really a matter of a "queue" so much as simply drastically different positions between the US and the UK which will make the UK hesitant to just agree to what the US will put on the table.

Anyway, the illusions of the upraise of 'ordinary people' led by billionaires for the regaining of their county's sovereignty and old prestige is about to fall to pieces, merely 5 years after it started. And contrary to the US, there's no way to correct the historic mistake for the UK.

Yup. That knee is shot for good by the UK themselves, unfortunately.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:48 am

A101 wrote:
Parliament as the representative to the electorate has to have the moral fortitude to get the best possible deal for the country, in this they have failed remarkably. Theresa Mays catchcry “No deal is better than a bad deal” is still the better position, pity she did not have the determination to stand by it. Brussels is not stupid if no deal eventuates a series of mini deals will be fourth coming very quickly

After so many years you should know better than to perpetuate that kind of illusion.

The actual reality is that the EU will set up a limited number of unilateral measures to the sole benefit of the EU and the UK is free to do the same (of course also accepting any consequences).

But there will be no "mini deals". Only unilateral measures to the EU's own benefit without any negotiations and only limited to the bare minimum.

You've fallen flat on your face with pretty much every single one of your other predictions of what the EU would or wouldn't do, and this one is no exception.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:52 am

Klaus wrote:

You've fallen flat on your face with pretty much every single one of your other predictions of what the EU would or wouldn't do, and this one is no exception.


Can you show my predictions in this forum please and result
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:03 am

A101 wrote:
Grizzly140 wrote:
Look, not respecting the NIP, part of the WA leads to breach of GFA because it would mean a full blown border between ROI and EI. Of course no one will go there because grown up knows what would that mean, thus find other solutions (read below) but that's the way it is.

A border down the frontier does nor breech the Belfast agreement, I keep banging on about it because people here keep perpetuating the myth


The problem you have is that nobody seems to agree with you.
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:17 am

A101

Let me spell it out.

If Britain plans to play off Germany against France against Belgium against Holland etc, I think the EU will say no way.

Looks to be WTO for goods and who knows what for services.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:17 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I guess you missed the post, so again: Big words: "treasonous". How can a Parliament be treasonous if it is sovereign to decide what it wants?


Treason is a synonym for betrayal

Did Parliament not give its consent to the electorate for a referenda to remain or leave the EU, did the majority of the electorate vote to leave the EU in the only poll that counts: YES, on both counts

Did Parliament say no to PM Mays WA 3 times, did Parliament create the conditions that lead to Johnson renegotiate the WA instead of rejecting it in full which lead to a sub-standard WA to the detriment of the UK as a whole: YES, on both counts.

The prior Parliament rejected the softest of exist and the hardest of exists in order to help facilitate remain, the facts remain that the previous Parliament conspired and revolted against the majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU, a betrayal of the highest magnitude which is comparable to treason.


Oh wauw. You become a hardliner version of yourself. Thanks for pointing. that out.

A101 wrote:
Parliament as the representative to the electorate has to have the moral fortitude to get the best possible deal for the country, in this they have failed remarkably. Theresa Mays catchcry “No deal is better than a bad deal” is still the better position, pity she did not have the determination to stand by it. Brussels is not stupid if no deal eventuates a series of mini deals will be fourth coming very quickly


Yes on the first account. Unfortunately for you the best possible deal the UK ever had with the EU is gone. You voted to leave the best possible deal. So given your line of reasoning, isn't each and every Brexiteer guilty of treason? I am not saying that, but that is the ultimate consequence of your own train of thought.

“No deal is better than a bad deal”, yes, what a load of utter bull was that. Actually, almost any deal is better than no-deal in the real word. The EU knows that, the UK knows that as well. The EU isn't stupid, but for the EU it is definitely “No deal is better than a bad deal”. If a deal means undermining the foundations of the EU, then a no-deal is the best option for the EU.

The UK isn't given special treatment and given Johnson's statement that he thinks he is entitled to it, given the 40plus years of membership, it will be a hard pill to swallow. It is a complete and utter clusterf*ck, the whole Brexit. Given that all deals are worse than a full EU membership, this outcome was to be expected.



A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Everything else you wrote is your opinion and we know your opinion so not really relevant for this.



All opinions are valid, even those you disagree with.


Let's do an A101: please show me where I said that your opinion is not valid. Like all truisms, they're true, but also irrelevant.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:19 am

bennett123 wrote:
A101

Let me spell it out.

If Britain plans to play off Germany against France against Belgium against Holland etc, I think the EU will say no way.

Looks to be WTO for goods and who knows what for services.


Who knows what for services? Well, no deal is no deal, so no services.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:48 am

A101 wrote:

All opinions are valid, even those you disagree with.


Your right to an opinion does not make it valid (and it certainly doesn't make it fact).
Opinions based in fantasy are just that. Fantasies.



"The greatest deception men suffer is their own opinions." - Lenoardo de Vinci
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

A border down the frontier does nor breech the Belfast agreement, I keep banging on about it because people here keep perpetuating the myth



The problem you have is that nobody seems to agree with you.



I’ve never asked for you to agree with me, I have only asked you umpteen times to show where in the Belfast Agreement where we breached it.

But I do recall not so long ago that a number of members on the forum actually finally acknowledged that I was correct. But still certain members persist with the myth


Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Parliament as the representative to the electorate has to have the moral fortitude to get the best possible deal for the country, in this they have failed remarkably. Theresa Mays catchcry “No deal is better than a bad deal” is still the better position, pity she did not have the determination to stand by it. Brussels is not stupid if no deal eventuates a series of mini deals will be fourth coming very quickly


Yes on the first account. Unfortunately for you the best possible deal the UK ever had with the EU is gone.



1st up we had membership with some opt outs and the UK was not the only country with opt-outs, which is fundamentally different from a trade deal between sovereign nation

2nd we are negotiating for a deal without all the baggage of being tied to the EU membership and its regulatory institutions. So no it’s not the best deal in my opinion.


Dutchy wrote:

You voted to leave the best possible deal. So given your line of reasoning, isn't each and every Brexiteer guilty of treason? I am not saying that, but that is the ultimate consequence of your own train of thought.


Nope; what you believe to be a good deal a majority of the UK electorate disagrees with you. So no it’s not the best possible arrangement.

Dutchy wrote:

“No deal is better than a bad deal”, yes, what a load of utter bull was that. Actually, almost any deal is better than no-deal in the real word. The EU knows that, the UK knows that as well. The EU isn't stupid, but for the EU it is definitely “No deal is better than a bad deal”. If a deal means undermining the foundations of the EU, then a no-deal is the best option for the EU.


LOL
You answered your own argument to “No deal is better than a bad deal”.

Dutchy wrote:

The UK isn't given special treatment and given Johnson's statement that he thinks he is entitled to it, given the 40plus years of membership, it will be a hard pill to swallow.


Like in any negotiations you don’t ask you don’t receive, it’s not asking for special treatment its negotiating


Dutchy wrote:

It is a complete and utter clusterf*ck, the whole Brexit.


Agree; it’s been a dogs breakfast, with agreements as they stand not in the UK’s best interests


Dutchy wrote:

Given that all deals are worse than a full EU membership, this outcome was to be expected.



Yep hence no deal is better than a bad deal, I also don’t think full EU membership was any better either.

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

All opinions are valid, even those you disagree with.


Let's do an A101: please show me where I said that your opinion is not valid. Like all truisms, they're true, but also irrelevant.


When you have a preconceived bias towards someone then the opinion of person you have the bias against with, you are being dismissive of that persons opinions without thought which in turn you deem the opinion not to be valid because of your preconceived bias
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:20 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Let me spell it out.

If Britain plans to play off Germany against France against Belgium against Holland etc, I think the EU will say no way.



How are we going to play them off when all members follow the same tarrif rates in both directions, you lost me.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:28 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
A101 wrote:

All opinions are valid, even those you disagree with.


Your right to an opinion does not make it valid (and it certainly doesn't make it fact).
Opinions based in fantasy are just that. Fantasies.



"The greatest deception men suffer is their own opinions." - Lenoardo de Vinci


Is that then a self fulfilling opinion. As no one’s opinion are worth the listening too according Leonardo?
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:30 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
The US election result is terrible news for the UK.
Either Biden wins outright and then it's a return to the back of the queue for BoJo OR it takes weeks to sort out who'll be the next president and then Brexit takes the backburner everywhere...
Anyway, the illusions of the upraise of 'ordinary people' led by billionaires for the regaining of their county's sovereignty and old prestige is about to fall to pieces, merely 5 years after it started. And contrary to the US, there's no way to correct the historic mistake for the UK.


I doubt Trump is much better for the UK...

Anyway, seems that BoJo will talk to Ursula today. The Express had the "breaking news" that BoJo would issue an ultimatum, but retracted that story.......then again, it's the Express.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/06/boris-johnson-ursula-von-der-leyen-brexit-talks
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:10 pm

 
bennett123
Posts: 10930
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:19 pm

A101

1. Because any FTA is more than a list of tariffs.

2. I said 'If Britain plans to play off', not that would succeed, quite the opposite.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:58 pm

So you agree with me that your train of thought leads to the conclusion that Brexit is treason.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
A border down the frontier does nor breech the Belfast agreement, I keep banging on about it because people here keep perpetuating the myth


The problem you have is that nobody seems to agree with you.


I’ve never asked for you to agree with me, I have only asked you umpteen times to show where in the Belfast Agreement where we breached it.

But I do recall not so long ago that a number of members on the forum actually finally acknowledged that I was correct. But still certain members persist with the myth


The problem with yo.u is that you follow a very narrow definition which in the real world has no merit. So whatever, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that the Good Friday Agreement was the beginning of the peace process and your hard Brexit can't work if you believe in an open border. And what I have said many times to you: don't export your Brexit problem to Ireland.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Parliament as the representative to the electorate has to have the moral fortitude to get the best possible deal for the country, in this they have failed remarkably. Theresa Mays catchcry “No deal is better than a bad deal” is still the better position, pity she did not have the determination to stand by it. Brussels is not stupid if no deal eventuates a series of mini deals will be fourth coming very quickly

Yes on the first account. Unfortunately for you the best possible deal the UK ever had with the EU is gone.


1st up we had membership with some opt outs and the UK was not the only country with opt-outs, which is fundamentally different from a trade deal between sovereign nation

2nd we are negotiating for a deal without all the baggage of being tied to the EU membership and its regulatory institutions. So no it’s not the best deal in my opinion.


You never were not sovereign, don't believe in those narratives. One of your native countries was the one with the most opt-outs. And now you get none anymore.

Fine, if you do not want the "baggage of regulatory institutions", as you so eloquently put it, you do it all yourself. So not less regulatory institutions, just different ones. Given the bill for those institutions is split between its members and now the UK needs to set-up its own, it will be more expensive. But sure, if you want to, your choice.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You voted to leave the best possible deal. So given your line of reasoning, isn't each and every Brexiteer guilty of treason? I am not saying that, but that is the ultimate consequence of your own train of thought.


Nope; what you believe to be a good deal a majority of the UK electorate disagrees with you. So no it’s not the best possible arrangement.


We do not know that at this moment in time. But I am not talking about perception, but in real terms. I have not any real academic that thinks Brexit will be better for the UK. But sure, you can believe whatever you like.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

“No deal is better than a bad deal”, yes, what a load of utter bull was that. Actually, almost any deal is better than no-deal in the real word. The EU knows that, the UK knows that as well. The EU isn't stupid, but for the EU it is definitely “No deal is better than a bad deal”. If a deal means undermining the foundations of the EU, then a no-deal is the best option for the EU.


LOL
You answered your own argument to “No deal is better than a bad deal”.


Not. for the UK, but for the EU. So no.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The UK isn't given special treatment and given Johnson's statement that he thinks he is entitled to it, given the 40plus years of membership, it will be a hard pill to swallow.


Like in any negotiations you don’t ask you don’t receive, it’s not asking for special treatment its negotiating


LOL, man, if you believe that........

It was not negotiating, it was bagging and the feeling of being wronged. Quite sad to see actually for an UK prime minister.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

It is a complete and utter clusterf*ck, the whole Brexit.


Agree; it’s been a dogs breakfast, with agreements as they stand not in the UK’s best interests


There are no EU-UK agreements moving forward. Just the withdrawal agreement. That one has been done and needs to be honored.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Given that all deals are worse than a full EU membership, this outcome was to be expected.



Yep hence no deal is better than a bad deal, I also don’t think full EU membership was any better either.


Oh man, you and your spins. But if you make you feel better, fine.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

All opinions are valid, even those you disagree with.


Let's do an A101: please show me where I said that your opinion is not valid. Like all truisms, they're true, but also irrelevant.


When you have a preconceived bias towards someone then the opinion of person you have the bias against with, you are being dismissive of that persons opinions without thought which in turn you deem the opinion not to be valid because of your preconceived bias


Ok, apology accepted. Don't have preconceived ideas about someone and base your answer on what is actually written, not what you think is there.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:01 pm

Arion640 wrote:


Whatever. Do whatever you like, just don't export Brexit.
 
A101
Posts: 2712
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So you agree with me that your train of thought leads to the conclusion that Brexit is treason


No


Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

I’ve never asked for you to agree with me, I have only asked you umpteen times to show where in the Belfast Agreement where we breached it.

But I do recall not so long ago that a number of members on the forum actually finally acknowledged that I was correct. But still certain members persist with the myth



The problem with yo.u is that you follow a very narrow definition which in the real world has no merit. So whatever, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that the Good Friday Agreement was the beginning of the peace process and your hard Brexit can't work if you believe in an open border. And what I have said many times to you: don't export your Brexit problem to Ireland.



I going by what is written in the agreement, irrespective of your claim Brexit cannot work in the event of a no deal between the EU/UK an open border between two sovereign nations can work if both sides cooperate. A bit hard to export Brexit problem to Ireland

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

1st up we had membership with some opt outs and the UK was not the only country with opt-outs, which is fundamentally different from a trade deal between sovereign nation


You never were not sovereign, don't believe in those narratives. One of your native countries was the one with the most opt-outs. And now you get none anymore.



Cant have opt-outs when we are no longer members

Could the sovereign UK Parliament overrule the superiority of EU/EEC law; the case of R (Factortame Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport begs to differ

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

2nd we are negotiating for a deal without all the baggage of being tied to the EU membership and its regulatory institutions. So no it’s not the best deal in my opinion.


Fine, if you do not want the "baggage of regulatory institutions", as you so eloquently put it, you do it all yourself. So not less regulatory institutions, just different ones. Given the bill for those institutions is split between its members and now the UK needs to set-up its own, it will be more expensive. But sure, if you want to, your choice.


A majority of functions are duplicated within the EU/UK one less level of government and bureaucracy

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Nope; what you believe to be a good deal a majority of the UK electorate disagrees with you. So no it’s not the best possible arrangement.


We do not know that at this moment in time. But I am not talking about perception, but in real terms. I have not any real academic that thinks Brexit will be better for the UK. But sure, you can believe whatever you like.



You do realise that a referenda was held and the majority voted to end the arrangement

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

LOL
You answered your own argument to “No deal is better than a bad deal”.


Not. for the UK, but for the EU. So no.


LOL so any deal (“No deal is better than a bad deal”)
is good for the EU hey;

What's good for the goose is good for the gander

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Like in any negotiations you don’t ask you don’t receive, it’s not asking for special treatment its negotiating


LOL, man, if you believe that........

It was not negotiating, it was bagging and the feeling of being wronged. Quite sad to see actually for an UK prime minister.


LOL; So are you saying that the EU position to keep fishing under the same conditions as the CFP is not negotiating, because they are being wronged by the UK, did you really expect that the UK will just give you the same conditions if you don’t ask for them

We must live in different universes on what negotiations means

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Agree; it’s been a dogs breakfast, with agreements as they stand not in the UK’s best interests


There are no EU-UK agreements moving forward. Just the withdrawal agreement. That one has been done and needs to be honored.


You called Brexit a clusterf*ck In which I agreed it was a dogs breakfast and with the agreements negotiated so far not in the interests of the UK. If the Government honours it or not is not up to me

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

Yep hence no deal is better than a bad deal, I also don’t think full EU membership was any better either.


Oh man, you and your spins. But if you make you feel better, fine.


Don’t know why you claim it as spin, not sure how it was going to make me feel any better than I was.

Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

When you have a preconceived bias towards someone then the opinion of person you have the bias against with, you are being dismissive of that persons opinions without thought which in turn you deem the opinion not to be valid because of your preconceived bias

Ok, apology accepted. Don't have preconceived ideas about someone and base your answer on what is actually written, not what you think is there.


I haven’t apologised, not sure what you think is there.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1653
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Whatever. Do whatever you like, just don't export Brexit.


They tried to export it in New-Zealand.....
 
Arion640
Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:


Whatever. Do whatever you like, just don't export Brexit.


It will be down to the people of each country to decide.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5223
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:12 pm

Here is another way of looking at final trade agreements. It may foster some agreement.

Sovereignty for the EU is control over quality of goods, labor practices, regulations, human rights, and subsidies of goods and services coming into its territory. In addition it alone through its courts has the right to decide what goods and services are acceptable. Some slack is granted to minor trading parties, but only at the sufferance of the EU. Conversely the UK has the same rights.

A final trade agreement cedes some of those rights in a mutually beneficial way. It does need to have a court to make timely and enforceable decisions. The WTO is neither timely nor are its decisions enforceable. It is not surprising that the EU and the UK have not been able to arrive at an agreement. So be it. If the UK wishes to go it alone good luck. The US cannot and will not rescue England.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3719
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:05 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Here is another way of looking at final trade agreements. It may foster some agreement.

Sovereignty for the EU is control over quality of goods, labor practices, regulations, human rights, and subsidies of goods and services coming into its territory. In addition it alone through its courts has the right to decide what goods and services are acceptable. Some slack is granted to minor trading parties, but only at the sufferance of the EU. Conversely the UK has the same rights.

A final trade agreement cedes some of those rights in a mutually beneficial way. It does need to have a court to make timely and enforceable decisions. The WTO is neither timely nor are its decisions enforceable. It is not surprising that the EU and the UK have not been able to arrive at an agreement. So be it. If the UK wishes to go it alone good luck. The US cannot and will not rescue England.


This is not just another way to look at it, this is the only way to look at it.

For some odd reason however, Brexiteers have come to think that:

1- concerning Brexit, the UK is the only party entitled to sovereignty while the EU -given it's not a federal state- has none and should simly grant it whatever the UK deems valuable to conserve from its EU membership benefits after leaving the Union.

2- concerning third countries, the UK is so much appreciated by others around the globe that old 'friends' like they are now euphemistically called by the British government (often in fact involuntary subjects of worse even) will give it whatever it deems valuable for the sake of good old times...

Talking about misreading your chances as overrating yourself! :rotfl:
 
A101
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:29 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Sovereignty for the EU is control over quality of goods, labor practices, regulations, human rights, and subsidies of goods and services coming into its territory. In addition it alone through its courts has the right to decide what goods and services are acceptable. Some slack is granted to minor trading parties, but only at the sufferance of the EU. Conversely the UK has the same rights.


All third Nations have that right, the main difference here between an EU member and a third nation the EU members have ceded their sovereignty in those areas and EU law is supreme law. A member nations Parliament cannot overrule an EU law as the ECJ can force countries to follow them.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A final trade agreement cedes some of those rights in a mutually beneficial way. It does need to have a court to make timely and enforceable decisions.
The WTO is neither timely nor are its decisions enforceable. It is not surprising that the EU and the UK have not been able to arrive at an agreement. So be it. If the UK wishes to go it alone good luck. The US cannot and will not rescue England.


In any trade agreement will be a mechanism for disputes and will generally have an independent panel to hear any disputes, the time lines for resolution can vary, but I agree that they will be conducted more swiftly than via WTO

Trade agreement generally have scope for regulatory cooperation and encourages each nation to exchange experiences and information, and identify areas where they could/can cooperate. As in CETA cooperation is voluntary and regulators in the EU and Canada retain their power to adopt legislation. Which is different to the LPF demands of the EU insist of the UK
 
A101
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:49 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

1- concerning Brexit, the UK is the only party entitled to sovereignty while the EU -given it's not a federal state- has none and should simly grant it whatever the UK deems valuable to conserve from its EU membership benefits after leaving the Union.


No incorrect it’s a negotiation, if you don’t ask you don’t get simple really. Just like on fisheries the EU is asking for the status quo and we are not granting that.

sabenapilot wrote:
2- concerning third countries, the UK is so much appreciated by others around the globe that old 'friends' like they are now euphemistically called by the British government (often in fact involuntary subjects of worse even) will give it whatever it deems valuable for the sake of good old times...


LOL just like what we are doing with the EU is negotiating, like every country in the world we have disagreements and each and every sovereign nation will protect its own interests.

I actually see parallels with how China is acting with Australia with economic coercion in regards to trade and influence which in some ways is comparable the EU with the UK.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:35 pm

The arrogance on this thread is outstanding. Somehow you guys in europe can’t get into your heads the EU does not own the UK. You seem to have a problem that the UK just doesn’t want to follow the EU rules no longer. It’s no different a country gaining independence from another.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:13 pm

Arion640 wrote:
You seem to have a problem that the UK just doesn’t want to follow the EU rules no longer.


No, the problem is that the UK wants to compete on the EU market without having to follow the same rules as everyone else.
 
A101
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:28 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
You seem to have a problem that the UK just doesn’t want to follow the EU rules no longer.


No, the problem is that the UK wants to compete on the EU market without having to follow the same rules as everyone else.


Incorrect; the UK will follow the regulations laid down by the EU just as every third nation does, the EU is asking over and above what normally transpires in a FTA in negotiations, in a way of EU rules enacted into domestic law without having a say in those very laws which goes against the very fabric of Parliamentary and judicial sovereignty in that parliament cannot bind its successors
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 553
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:27 am

Arion640 wrote:
The arrogance on this thread is outstanding. Somehow you guys in europe can’t get into your heads the EU does not own the UK. You seem to have a problem that the UK just doesn’t want to follow the EU rules no longer. It’s no different a country gaining independence from another.


Would you mind to quote some example of the "arrogance" ?

Seriously I'm pretty sure nobody here have a "problem" with UK having its own rules, many will find the concept ridiculous though.

About "own rules" do we yet know what is the EU incompatible policy UK wants to implement jan 1st and makes it refuse to extend the transition period back in june ?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:15 am

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

1- concerning Brexit, the UK is the only party entitled to sovereignty while the EU -given it's not a federal state- has none and should simly grant it whatever the UK deems valuable to conserve from its EU membership benefits after leaving the Union.


No incorrect it’s a negotiation, if you don’t ask you don’t get simple really. Just like on fisheries the EU is asking for the status quo and we are not granting that.


Good example, the fisheries. The EU has been stating its position for years. The UK was not making any counter proposal, just saying no.

The UK finally unveiled a plan in September. Is that a serious way to conduct negotiations ? And now they're complaining that time is running out.

For the level playing field, it's worse than that, I think there is no counter proposal. The UK is unable to say what industries it wants to subsidize, how much, things like that. Which is logical, since subsidizing is anathema to the Tories, they prefer giving the contracts to their donors directly.
 
Ertro
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:16 am

A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
No, the problem is that the UK wants to compete on the EU market without having to follow the same rules as everyone else.


Incorrect; the UK will follow the regulations laid down by the EU just as every third nation does, the EU is asking over and above what normally transpires in a FTA in negotiations, in a way of EU rules enacted into domestic law without having a say in those very laws which goes against the very fabric of Parliamentary and judicial sovereignty in that parliament cannot bind its successors


Every third nation that is not in the single market trades its goods with EU through a customs check and every exporter fills customs declarations.
UK does not want to do this. UK expects to trade with EU without customs check and customs declarations.
That means UK really wants and expects EU to grant it some status that somehow makes UK to be able to be in the single market without being in the single market.

UK has not started building functional customs checkpoints and systems for handling the customs declarations.

What the UK has done fits only as something cobbled up together as a prop to fool UK residents to think the no deal is some huge threat towards EU.
EU can see through this. Nobody in EU is fooled by this nonsense. It is only the UK residents that are fooled like we see in here.

Without a proper construction of customs checkpoints into Dover UK does not want to be a third country.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12842
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:05 am

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So you agree with me that your train of thought leads to the conclusion that Brexit is treason


No


of course you don't. Might be a case of cognitive dissonance we are witnessing.


A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
I’ve never asked for you to agree with me, I have only asked you umpteen times to show where in the Belfast Agreement where we breached it.

But I do recall not so long ago that a number of members on the forum actually finally acknowledged that I was correct. But still certain members persist with the myth


The problem with you is that you follow a very narrow definition which in the real world has no merit. So whatever, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that the Good Friday Agreement was the beginning of the peace process and your hard Brexit can't work if you believe in an open border. And what I have said many times to you: don't export your Brexit problem to Ireland.


I going by what is written in the agreement, irrespective of your claim Brexit cannot work in the event of a no deal between the EU/UK an open border between two sovereign nations can work if both sides cooperate. A bit hard to export Brexit problem to Ireland


If both sides cooperate? In other words, if Ireland / EU facilitates UK's wishes? Thereby exporting Brexit problem to the EU. obody has no problem with the current situation, Brexit and there is a problem. Brexit created the problem and you propose Ireland / EU "cooperate". Guess what, they did, they facilitated to have part of a country within the EU rules, therefore the border could remain open. No other country has that, it is a special case. But you don't like that, so perhaps the UK should cooperate and observe the Withdrawal agreement without hesitation?

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
1st up we had membership with some opt outs and the UK was not the only country with opt-outs, which is fundamentally different from a trade deal between sovereign nation


You never were not sovereign, don't believe in those narratives. One of your native countries was the one with the most opt-outs. And now you get none anymore.


Cant have opt-outs when we are no longer members
:roll:

A101 wrote:
Could the sovereign UK Parliament overrule the superiority of EU/EEC law; the case of R (Factortame Ltd) v Secretary of State for Transport begs to differ


There we go again, so every international treaty is a breach of sovereignty? 5 years of discussion and you still don't get it.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

2nd we are negotiating for a deal without all the baggage of being tied to the EU membership and its regulatory institutions. So no it’s not the best deal in my opinion.


Fine, if you do not want the "baggage of regulatory institutions", as you so eloquently put it, you do it all yourself. So not less regulatory institutions, just different ones. Given the bill for those institutions is split between its members and now the UK needs to set-up its own, it will be more expensive. But sure, if you want to, your choice.


A majority of functions are duplicated within the EU/UK one less level of government and bureaucracy


A. not all, thank you for at least acknowledging that
B. majority of functions? No, of course, it isn't, because that would be ridiculous. They do a different part of the functions. Still uninformed I see.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Nope; what you believe to be a good deal a majority of the UK electorate disagrees with you. So no it’s not the best possible arrangement.


We do not know that at this moment in time. But I am not talking about perception, but in real terms. I have not any real academic that thinks Brexit will be better for the UK. But sure, you can believe whatever you like.


You do realise that a referenda was held and the majority voted to end the arrangement


You are talking in the present tense, it was four years ago. So could you please explain how you know now, at this moment in time. And you choose to not to go into the point raised.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
LOL
You answered your own argument to “No deal is better than a bad deal”.


Not. for the UK, but for the EU. So no.


LOL so any deal (“No deal is better than a bad deal”)
is good for the EU hey;

What's good for the goose is good for the gander


Nope, the EU is large and. has many trade agreements, so no-deal is not as bad for the EU as for the UK. So you still don't have a clue what your vote placed one of your home countries in.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Like in any negotiations you don’t ask you don’t receive, it’s not asking for special treatment its negotiating


LOL, man, if you believe that........

It was not negotiating, it was bagging and the feeling of being wronged. Quite sad to see actually for an UK prime minister.


LOL; So are you saying that the EU position to keep fishing under the same conditions as the CFP is not negotiating, because they are being wronged by the UK, did you really expect that the UK will just give you the same conditions if you don’t ask for them

We must live in different universes on what negotiations means


Yes, we live in different universes. Negotiations are done in good faith. If one party asked for the impossible, negotiations are done. So successful negotiations are done when both parties correctly estimated their strength. Luckily the Brexitremist have come down from: "they need us more than we need them to "we are equal". Not that the latter is the truth, but it is at least closer.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Agree; it’s been a dogs breakfast, with agreements as they stand not in the UK’s best interests

There are no EU-UK agreements moving forward. Just the withdrawal agreement. That one has been done and needs to be honored.


You called Brexit a clusterf*ck In which I agreed it was a dogs breakfast and with the agreements negotiated so far not in the interests of the UK. If the Government honours it or not is not up to me


No, of course, you take no responsibility for anything, not for your vote at least.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:
Yep hence no deal is better than a bad deal, I also don’t think full EU membership was any better either.


Oh man, you and your spins. But if you make you feel better, fine.


Don’t know why you claim it as spin, not sure how it was going to make me feel any better than I was.


Whatever, let everyone judge your little spin for themselves.

A101 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A101 wrote:

When you have a preconceived bias towards someone then the opinion of person you have the bias against with, you are being dismissive of that persons opinions without thought which in turn you deem the opinion not to be valid because of your preconceived bias

Ok, apology accepted. Don't have preconceived ideas about someone and base your answer on what is actually written, not what you think is there.


I haven’t apologised, not sure what you think is there.


My apologies, I interpreted it in that way to give you the benefit of the doubt, I was wrong about that. You go ahead with your preconceived bias, no surprise there.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:13 am

Ertro wrote:
Without a proper construction of customs checkpoints into Dover UK does not want to be a third country.


Oh Brexiteers do want to be a third country. They want to do whatever they please and have all the excess they want to the EU market. They still have the notion of UK exceptionalism in mind, a concept which died at least 70 years ago.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 382
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:25 am

A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
You seem to have a problem that the UK just doesn’t want to follow the EU rules no longer.


No, the problem is that the UK wants to compete on the EU market without having to follow the same rules as everyone else.


Incorrect; the UK will follow the regulations laid down by the EU just as every third nation does,


Apologies for the sloppy language. By "everyone" I meant all parties involved in the UK/EU FTA deal.

A101 wrote:
the EU is asking over and above what normally transpires in a FTA in negotiations, in a way of EU rules enacted into domestic law without having a say in those very laws which goes against the very fabric of Parliamentary and judicial sovereignty in that parliament cannot bind its successors


That may all be true but it does not change the fact that what the UK wants is a deal that allows it to compete on the EU market without having to follow the same rules as everyone else involved in the deal.
Last edited by AeroVega on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:29 am

Is this not wasted energy. The obvious result will be hard Brexit with no deal. The Us will be busy with itself till the end of the year, the EU is bound by it´s own rules and existing FTAs and the UK won´t change it´s position either. Best for all would be to stop the talks now and be done with it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:37 am

The UK has changed its position many times, so I would not be surprised if they did it again, especially since the US has changed its president.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3719
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:54 am

Ertro wrote:
A101 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
No, the problem is that the UK wants to compete on the EU market without having to follow the same rules as everyone else.


Incorrect; the UK will follow the regulations laid down by the EU just as every third nation does, the EU is asking over and above what normally transpires in a FTA in negotiations, in a way of EU rules enacted into domestic law without having a say in those very laws which goes against the very fabric of Parliamentary and judicial sovereignty in that parliament cannot bind its successors


Every third nation that is not in the single market trades its goods with EU through a customs check and every exporter fills customs declarations.
UK does not want to do this. UK expects to trade with EU without customs check and customs declarations.
That means UK really wants and expects EU to grant it some status that somehow makes UK to be able to be in the single market without being in the single market.


Exactly,
The UK claims all it wants is a Canada type of deal, but it forgets to mention it used to refer to it as a Canada+++ deal;
in the rethoric of Brexiteers the pluses may have dropped off by now, but they still very much asks for them nevertheless!

A FTA simply puts tariffs at zero, so on the tariff front the UK can't be asking for much more than the Canadians got, can it?
So what are all the plusses about then, you might wonder? Well, as was explained: it's about the tons of red tape that sits around international trade.
The UK wants to get rid of all those obligations too and continue to import into the EU as if it is still an integral part of the SM.
As a non-member you could, but then you have to guarantee that you'll either:
- automatically copy-paste all relevant EU rules as your own domestic rules too (the Norway model)
- adjust your domestic rules to always mirror those of the EU asap (the Swiss model)
What the UK can't is obtain the very same rights as the Swiss or the Norwegians have, while combining this with the freedom not to follow the same obligations.
No cherry picking still isn't understood, it seems?
Pathetic.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:54 am

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:


Whatever. Do whatever you like, just don't export Brexit.


It will be down to the people of each country to decide.

And the majority will see that leaving the EU will not be an advantage. Maybe a few want to leave (those with a nationalist and populist government), but they also want to eat the cake and have it.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3266
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
The UK has changed its position many times, so I would not be surprised if they did it again, especially since the US has changed its president.


Joe Biden is far more closely aligned with the UK governments policies than Trump ever was (climate change, NATO, Iran nuclear deal, russia, etc).
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12842
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:05 am

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The UK has changed its position many times, so I would not be surprised if they did it again, especially since the US has changed its president.


Joe Biden is far more closely aligned with the UK governments policies than Trump ever was (climate change, NATO, Iran nuclear deal, russia, etc).


Not on Northern Ireland and that is one that really matters with regards of Brexit and obtaining a trade deal with the US.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:19 am

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The UK has changed its position many times, so I would not be surprised if they did it again, especially since the US has changed its president.


Joe Biden is far more closely aligned with the UK governments policies than Trump ever was (climate change, NATO, Iran nuclear deal, russia, etc).

So is it with the EU. But Biden is - just as Obama was - much more focused at the Pacific, so he isn’t interested in “issues” at this side of the Atlantic. You need the US more than they need the UK
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:30 am

Don't forget Biden is of Irish decent en proud of it.

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos