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Klaus
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:58 pm

According to Michel Barnier the hard deadline is Wednesday (probably in the evening).
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:12 pm

Klaus wrote:
According to Michel Barnier the hard deadline is Wednesday (probably in the evening).


Thanks!
 
AeroVega
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:11 pm

Boris now "offering" to drop the contentious internal market bill clauses in exchange for a trade deal (on UK terms, supposedly). After the fish, another token offer to distract from the real price the UK has been after all along.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:16 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Boris now "offering" to drop the contentious internal market bill clauses in exchange for a trade deal (on UK terms, supposedly).


really? is this how it works? demand the impossible and be kind enough to drop it for exchange of something else? Amateuristic way of negotiations......
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:45 pm

Why would Belgium do that.

A Belgium factory made those vaccines, and will want to deliver and get paid.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:02 am

AeroVega wrote:
Boris now "offering" to drop the contentious internal market bill clauses in exchange for a trade deal (on UK terms, supposedly). After the fish, another token offer to distract from the real price the UK has been after all along.


There is also the Taxation Bill (former Finance Bill) which is rumoured to contain provisions against the WA.

Anyway, Boris Johnson is going to Brussels on either Wednesday or Thursday.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55224096

I reckon he realised he hadn't traveled to Brussels after becoming PM. will be interesting how this meeting will go. However, it will create great pictures if he holds a press conference in Brussels slaming the door towards the EU and then leaves the EU building proclaimiing that Britain rule the waves. Thus, much better than stopping the negotiations by phone.

BTW whay I do find funny is that the pro-Brexit media sees his journey to Brussels as a sign of capitulation, whereas the people against a hard Brexit emphasise the fact that nothing has chnaged over the last few days (and thus expect a no-deal).
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:14 am

bennett123 wrote:
Why would Belgium do that.

A Belgium factory made those vaccines, and will want to deliver and get paid.


Do what?
Ask the UK to play by the rules of international diplomacy and trade?

On Jan 1st, the UK will become a third country to the EU, so all trade will have to comply with certain custom formalities not just at the receiving end in Britain, but also at the beginning of their trip here in the EU. On top of that, since Britain is a third country then, British government planes no longer just come by as if they fly a domestic trip: they will have to asks for diplomatic permission first.

Would the UK deem it acceptable if say French of German military cargoplanes started exporting Airbus parts from the EADS factory in Filton af from Jan 2nd without bothering to even inform the British government of this and possibly without fully complying with the normal export paperwork even?
I can already imagine what the tabloids would have to say about this 'Franco-German invasion by air' and blatant disrespect to the British sovereignty!

Brexit Britain is clearly having problems behaving in a correct way towards its partners in Europe.
The UK has left the EU; it has to understand it has no more (historic) rights to any solidarity, so it has to kindly ask for it as a favour and explain why, just like any other third country would.
You don't come by to sit in the garden of a house you once lived in, unless you're invited by the new owner to do so, yet this is exactly the type of behaviour Brexiteers seem to put on display when it comes to the EU: all perks are expected to just remain available without even a word of gratitude.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:01 pm

Climbdown seems to have begun...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

The British government has just announced it is abandoning the provisions in the internal market bill that would have undermined the withdrawal agreement with the European Union, as well as all plans for related provisions in a forthcoming taxation bill. This effectively means that the rules governing trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain as stipulated in the WA as a backstop will apply in full from next year and will leave Northern Ireland in the single market.
 
94717
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:11 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Climbdown seems to have begun...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

The Brithsh government has just announced it is abandoning the provisions in the internal market bill that would have undermined the withdrawal agreement, as well as all plans for related provisions in a forthcoming taxation bill. This means that the rules governing trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain as stipulated in the WA as a backstop will apply from next year and will leave Northern Ireland in the single market.


If not it would had been a no deal from tomorrow.

After Friday I do not understand how any negotiations will be able to continue.

EU parliament need to have a few days to read this FTA before 28 or there will be Veto.

Will UK parliament accept it before ratification and if yes when is this planned?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:24 pm

olle wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Climbdown seems to have begun...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

The Brithsh government has just announced it is abandoning the provisions in the internal market bill that would have undermined the withdrawal agreement, as well as all plans for related provisions in a forthcoming taxation bill. This means that the rules governing trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain as stipulated in the WA as a backstop will apply from next year and will leave Northern Ireland in the single market.


If not it would had been a no deal from tomorrow.

After Friday I do not understand how any negotiations will be able to continue.

EU parliament need to have a few days to read this FTA before 28 or there will be Veto.

Will UK parliament accept it before ratification and if yes when is this planned?


The time pressure is entirely because of the UK's reluctance to extend the transition period.

The EU has today again offered to extend the talks into 2021 without specifying if this would then be from an prolongued SM-membership or from a WTO-position.
By doing so, it's basically signalling to London that it's entirely its own choice if and when it crashes out without a deal: the EU will NOT walk away, ever.
BoJo will thus have to do it himself and take the full blame for the economic mess because of it, if that was his plan... or he will have to give in at the last minute. His choice.

I think that as from now, the deal is getting ever more expensive for the UK as time is playing against it, which is why you see this gesture of goodwill: it is to create momentum and conclude.
The EP will vote as last one: first the UK has to show it can get a deal approved at home, after the 3 failed attempts from last round as well as the whole saga with them willing to rip the WA to pieces again only 8 months after having signed it! Anyway, it seems any final deal with the UK will have to come into effect provisionally only, as there's no way the 30-something national and regional parliaments will all be able to have their vote on it before 2021 now.

Brexit is total chaos and almost entirely of BoJo's creation. Either he signs up to something that was available 6 months ago (while wasting billions on economic uncertainty), or he walks away and throws his economy under the bus, largely unprepared because of his lack of planning for a no deal... and on top his government just signed NI away with a border down the Irish Sea after claiming it wouldn't do that... twice... and doing so nevertheless, also twice... :sarcastic:
Is there anybody at the controls even in the UK, because there doesn't seem to be much strategy in all of this.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:17 pm

Upholding the WA and its protections for North Ireland and the GFA ensures Biden and the US can work for a good trade deal, should the UK actually withdraw from the EU in a no deal. A strong EU with the UK in some sort of agreement is in the long term interests of the US. The world along the rationality and reason says we need to maintain relations with China and Russia despite all of the ill will we see there. We need strong allies. And in the long run persuade China and Russia that our hoped alliances with them is as important as it was in the early 40s of the last century. Sometimes hope is a plan.
 
agill
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:44 pm

What is it they have agreed on? To me it sounds like the WA all over again?
 
94717
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:48 pm

agill wrote:
What is it they have agreed on? To me it sounds like the WA all over again?


They have agreed on that WA shall be honoured.

Basic; NI stays in SM.

No border on Ireland but in the Irish sea.

Without this UK could neither make FTA wigh USA nor EU.
 
94717
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:49 pm

So we still have 48 hours left until Friday afternoon. Interesting 48 hours.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:21 pm

agill wrote:
What is it they have agreed on? To me it sounds like the WA all over again?


Well, yes.

The WA put the border down the Irish Sea, something no British PM could ever agree on according to Theresa May as it separates the United Kingdom and creates an internal customs border, except clearly BoJo that is then, after which he went about for months denying there woud be a border be down the Irish Sea and his backbenchers fell for it.

When it became obvious that it did and he blatently lied to them, he tried to unilaterally erase that border by reserving the right to decide for which shipments it would apply, thus effectively undermining the WA, because that right is explicitly reserved to the EU in order to protect the SM to which Ireland belongs.

In the deal of today, the EU has now further clarified on what grounds it will decide when a shipment is deemed at risk of being imported to the RoI via NI, so the customs border remains down the Irish Sea, exactly as the WA stipulates and shipments from GB to NI still have to clear EU customs if the EU feels they are at risk of being send further to the RoI one in NI, exactly as the WA said it would.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:57 pm

The DUP will be mighty upset. But honestly I don't care about them. They put in their lot with the Conservatives when they paid them off during the last govenment.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:01 pm

Nobody should care about them, they're all for the return of war in Ireland.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:09 pm

Looks like NI will become an important cog in the UK empire! What about finance services in NI? Or is this only hard goods? How will UK citizens' travel be handled?

Tugg
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:23 pm

Deal or no deal North Ireland could become an important pivot not only for themselves but also for the UK and the EU. And as well US firms may find it make the whole of Ireland more important. I see NI as being something of a Free Port. UK and EU will obviously keep an eye on it all and will have to regularly adjust things to encourage what is licit and deter what is illicit.
 
art
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:33 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
I just read that the British government is planning on sending miltary planes to Belgium to pick up doses of the COVID vacine mass produced there to bypass the mess at the UK border; that is if Belgium let's them, because a no deal will seriously affect it's economy, so why should it be helpful on this front? It could impose individual pre-clearance for each such flight since the UK is a third country as from Jan 1st. Others may stand by their sovereignty too, of course. :stirthepot:


You think that Belgium might deliberately hinder the vaccination of people in the UK against COVID-19?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:36 pm

 
T4thH
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:24 pm

art wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
I just read that the British government is planning on sending miltary planes to Belgium to pick up doses of the COVID vacine mass produced there to bypass the mess at the UK border; that is if Belgium let's them, because a no deal will seriously affect it's economy, so why should it be helpful on this front? It could impose individual pre-clearance for each such flight since the UK is a third country as from Jan 1st. Others may stand by their sovereignty too, of course. :stirthepot:


You think that Belgium might deliberately hinder the vaccination of people in the UK against COVID-19?


Pretty sure, everything will be fine....as long, everyone is aware, what an Economic Operators' Registration and Identification number is, has been right and early enough requested...
You all know it, or? On 01-Jan-2021 it will be needed.

...and Europe will get back all of the cooling containers, and please from UK, do not send them back to Europe on any form of wood pallets..
Of course, everything will be fine, as long UK has build up the capacity to sterilize wood pallets.....pretty sure they have done it in the last 4 years...or...not?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:44 pm

Tugger wrote:
Looks like NI will become an important cog in the UK empire! What about finance services in NI? Or is this only hard goods? How will UK citizens' travel be handled?

Tugg


The ROI and the UK form a Common Travel Area just like the EU's Schengen zone is a common travel area, so there's no border check for people going from the UK to Ireland and vv.

While the UK is now having to accept an interal custom border for all goods going from GB to NI and vv., the ROI cannot join the EU's Schengen zone and thus has to somehow accept a custom border for its citizens with the rest of the EU. As such, each party is having to accept some sort of an internal border for the GFA to be made compatible with Brexit, because it is quite complex for 1 territory to effectively be in 2 custom zones at the same time of course. Needles to say the GFA was not drawn up with a situation in mind where one of the two countries would no longer be an EU member.

Curious to see if the EU will also be installing border posts in NI itself as was said at one point, or whether custom formalities and EU checks will be handled remotely and by mobile units only...
The practical way in which the EU will implement all off this will be known tomorrow afternoon, so it can be signed of at the EU summit on Thursday and Friday in Brussels.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:55 pm

art wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
I just read that the British government is planning on sending miltary planes to Belgium to pick up doses of the COVID vacine mass produced there to bypass the mess at the UK border; that is if Belgium let's them, because a no deal will seriously affect it's economy, so why should it be helpful on this front? It could impose individual pre-clearance for each such flight since the UK is a third country as from Jan 1st. Others may stand by their sovereignty too, of course. :stirthepot:


You think that Belgium might deliberately hinder the vaccination of people in the UK against COVID-19?


Nobody is threatening to deliberately hinder the UK's vaccination campaign at all!
What is being said is that as from Jan 1st the UK is a third country to any EU member state and it will have to act accordingly and should no longer expect favours from EU member states any longer.
So far, no formal request from the UK to Belgium has been made in order to smoothly prepare for this contingency plan, which is quite worrying in itself because as T4thH has meanwhile said, there are quite some administrative, technical and diplomatic formalities to comply with for this to be legally possible as a third country.
It seems the whole contingency planning by the British government was made from the mindset of Britain still being a participant to the SM, or it just assumes Belgium will wave through all these shipments against the normal EU rules. It should be clear to the UK by now that the EU is a rules based organisation and that it isn't very keen on bending, let alone breaking its rules for the sake of others, especially not if it is to make good for a self-created mess.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:00 am

sabenapilot wrote:
So far, no formal request from the UK to Belgium has been made in order to smoothly prepare for this contingency plan, which is quite worrying in itself because as T4thH has meanwhile said, there are quite some administrative, technical and diplomatic formalities to comply with for this to be legally possible as a third country.
It seems the whole contingency planning by the British government was made from the mindset of Britain still being a participant to the SM, or it just assumes Belgium will wave through all these shipments against the normal EU rules. It should be clear to the UK by now that the EU is a rules based organisation and that it isn't very keen on bending, let alone breaking its rules for the sake of others, especially not if it is to make good for a self-created mess.


The EU contingency plans cover aviation and traffic rights. The UK is going to waive almost all shipments and gradually introduce controls for the first 3 - 6 months (can be extended) as their systems are not ready. However, they do need to pay import duties unless there is a special clause for this type of product.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:47 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Curious to see if the EU will also be installing border posts in NI itself as was said at one point, or whether custom formalities and EU checks will be handled remotely and by mobile units only...
The practical way in which the EU will implement all off this will be known tomorrow afternoon, so it can be signed of at the EU summit on Thursday and Friday in Brussels.


Apparently it will be done remotely. I'm fine with it as long as the mechanism to deal with any smuggling are swift and harsh.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:05 am

Aesma wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Curious to see if the EU will also be installing border posts in NI itself as was said at one point, or whether custom formalities and EU checks will be handled remotely and by mobile units only...
The practical way in which the EU will implement all off this will be known tomorrow afternoon, so it can be signed of at the EU summit on Thursday and Friday in Brussels.


Apparently it will be done remotely. I'm fine with it as long as the mechanism to deal with any smuggling are swift and harsh.


Details are emerging:

The UK will allow 15 EU officials to be permanently based in offices in Belfast to help Britsh traders get to grips with the new system and monitor enforcement of EU rules by UK officials.
Their presence represents a U-turn for the government coming months after they told Brussels they could not open an office in Belfast.
The EU officials will have access to all UK databases and controls by them will be able to take place at any time without any prior notification.
The EU agreed they will not house in a seperate building in Belfast, but appropriate office space will be found for them by the British government, sources say.
Of the four border control posts at Northern Ireland ports two are not yet fully completed and will function as temporary structures.
The UK will provide documents to the EU concerning the work schedule for completion of these control posts as part of the joint committee agreement which will all be inspected by the EU's health directorate, DG Sante, which will oversee the sanitary and phytosanitary controls on all agrifood arriving in Northern Ireland from Great Britain.
https://knowledge4policy.ec.europa.eu/o ... -safety_en

Businesses in Northern Ireland will also be required to fill out Brexit paperwork when sending their goods across the Irish Sea to Britain, Boris Johnson has conceded, a year after he told them they could put export forms in the bin.It is understood the paperwork will be kept minimal and involve simple exit declaration forms part of a safety and security certification system the EU requires for all goods leaving the bloc into a third country.

Also to be revealed later today is the exact paperwork needed to import to NI.
Supermarkets will be permitted to continue to supply Northern Ireland shops without special Brexit checks that kick in, deal or no deal, on 1 January.
Sainsbury’s, Marks & Spencer, Asda and other trusted traders in the food sector will be given a waiver. It means sausages, burgers and cheeses will not be examined individually at any ports, addressing recent declarations by Sainsbury’s that it would have to curb meat, dairy and fish supplies because of the Brexit checks.
There has also been an agreement struck to determine which other goods are “not at risk” of being smuggled over the border into the Irish Republic, which will involve a trusted trader scheme.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rn-ireland
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:45 am

Aesma

Sounds like another huge government IT project.

They tend to fall flat on their face.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:32 pm

Yeah I should definitely switch jobs and learn to code 2+2, should be enough to get a contract for millions.

sabenapilot : thanks, so it's better than I thought, they really played semantics, instead of an EU building, there are EU agents into the UK building !
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
sabenapilot : thanks, so it's better than I thought, they really played semantics, instead of an EU building, there are EU agents into the UK building !


it's well known the EU is prepared to set a latter to allow BoJo to climb down on... it has done it it the past for him as well as his predecessor.

On fish, governance and LPF there are also quite similar solutions worked out by the EU, which have not been turned down by the UK.

The main issue remaining however is the ratchet clause as it is called by the UK which would force one side to step up its standards too if the other one does so: this goes well beyond the non-regression agreed to in the Political Declaration on the future agreement which accompanied the WA, but it is said to be key for the EU to sign a FTA...

Word had is BoJo was ready to accept the 3 creative solutions from the EU to the 3 outstanding isues, but that he can not live with the ratchet clause because it effectively makes it all but impossible to diverge from the EU standards in future... It's something France absolutely insisted on and much to the frustration of the UK, Germany now backs this painful demand.
BoJo is said to be almost begging to have it dropped for some sort of a non-binding commitment, but the problem is he has lost a lot of credibility when he tabled the unilateral revisions of the WA in the internal market bill, reason why the EU now wants this commitment to be inshrined in the deal, and why the UK suddenly dropped the intension to alter the WA via the IMB, yesterday in return for not much actually... a last minute effort to restore confidence in the hope that it would allow for a soft ratchet clause and thus pave the way to a deal.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:03 pm

Aesma wrote:
sabenapilot : thanks, so it's better than I thought, they really played semantics, instead of an EU building, there are EU agents into the UK building !


It's indeed all semantics.
For instance, the UK strongly objected to the EU setting up a custom administration in Belfast, and consequently refused EU offices.
It did however now accept the presence of EU custom officers and it will house these officers in offices themselves, thus making those offices no EU offices..
After which M. Gove today in Parliament tooted that there will be no mini EU embassy in Belfast and hailed that as a great victory!

The pattern is always the same: draw some brave red line, give in while playing a semantic game and defend the U-turn by inflating the previous red line into something never demanded even.
A mini-embassy!
ROTFL.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:26 pm

About the regression, what I find surprising is that we're talking about a free trade agreement, emphasis on agreement. If it becomes unlivable after some years for one of the parties, it's always possible to scrap it or negociate again.
 
Palop
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:32 pm

Aesma wrote:
About the regression, what I find surprising is that we're talking about a free trade agreement, emphasis on agreement. If it becomes unlivable after some years for one of the parties, it's always possible to scrap it or negociate again.

Probably to avoid Salami tactics. I think trust is at a low point now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o861Ka9TtT4
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:55 pm

The dinner between Ursula Von der Leyen, Boris Johnson, David Frost and Michel Barnier will be a succes........not.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/09/boris-johnson-no-pm-could-accept-trade-terms-offered-by-eu

One begins to wonder if he just goes to Brussels to get a free meal from the EU. Too bad there aren't any cameras during the dinner.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:04 pm

Well, nobody forces him.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:01 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
The main issue remaining however is the ratchet clause as it is called by the UK which would force one side to step up its standards too if the other one does so: this goes well beyond the non-regression agreed to in the Political Declaration on the future agreement which accompanied the WA, but it is said to be key for the EU to sign a FTA...


The ratchet thing really looks like a straw dragon build up recently for PM Johnson to slash it and come back home claiming a huge victory.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:54 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
why the UK suddenly dropped the intension to alter the WA via the IMB,



From my understanding it wasn’t suddenly dropped but a resolution was found in the joint committee from the previous extreme position taken by the EU on border controls and tariffs and exports declarations to the EU backing down the new regime will consist of no exit or export declarations needed for goods going from NI to GB, and no tariffs to apply to goods coming in from Britain. This will apply to trusted traders for the next three and a half years, after which the arrangement will be reviewed, which will coincide with Stormont having to vote on whether to continue with the current agreement in the WA or not


I’m still of the opinion that we should go no deal and scrap the WA in its entirety, but out of my hands it’s a UKGov decision.
 
94717
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:17 pm

A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
why the UK suddenly dropped the intension to alter the WA via the IMB,



From my understanding it wasn’t suddenly dropped but a resolution was found in the joint committee from the previous extreme position taken by the EU on border controls and tariffs and exports declarations to the EU backing down the new regime will consist of no exit or export declarations needed for goods going from NI to GB, and no tariffs to apply to goods coming in from Britain. This will apply to trusted traders for the next three and a half years, after which the arrangement will be reviewed, which will coincide with Stormont having to vote on whether to continue with the current agreement in the WA or not


I’m still of the opinion that we should go no deal and scrap the WA in its entirety, but out of my hands it’s a UKGov decision.


Stormont and NI seems to have the Veto over this not London. Are the majority in favor of free movement on the Irish island? That is the question.
 
A101
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:21 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

It's indeed all semantics.
For instance, the UK strongly objected to the EU setting up a custom administration in Belfast, and consequently refused EU offices.
It did however now accept the presence of EU custom officers and it will house these officers in offices themselves, thus making those offices no EU offices..
After which M. Gove today in Parliament tooted that there will be no mini EU embassy in Belfast and hailed that as a great victory!

The pattern is always the same: draw some brave red line, give in while playing a semantic game and defend the U-turn by inflating the previous red line into something never demanded even.
A mini-embassy!
ROTFL.



Nope certainly not semantics but actually inline with the WA.

Providing office space is a long way from what the EU wanted via its proposal to open a technical office in Belfast with specific technical capabilities whatever that actually means

It’s funny how it’s alway portrayed as an UK climb down when it’s just par for the course for what is agreed

From the NIP

2. Without prejudice to paragraph 4 of this Article, Union representatives shall have the right to be present during any activities of the authorities of the United Kingdom related to the implementation and application of provisions of Union law made applicable by this Protocol, as well as activities related to the implementation and application of Article 5, and the United Kingdom shall provide, upon request, all relevant information relating to such activities. The United Kingdom shall facilitate such presence of Union representatives and shall provide them with the information requested. Where the Union representative requests the authorities of the United Kingdom to carry out control measures in individual cases for duly stated reasons, the authorities of the United Kingdom shall carry out those control measures.

Last edited by A101 on Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
A101
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:24 pm

olle wrote:
A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
why the UK suddenly dropped the intension to alter the WA via the IMB,



From my understanding it wasn’t suddenly dropped but a resolution was found in the joint committee from the previous extreme position taken by the EU on border controls and tariffs and exports declarations to the EU backing down the new regime will consist of no exit or export declarations needed for goods going from NI to GB, and no tariffs to apply to goods coming in from Britain. This will apply to trusted traders for the next three and a half years, after which the arrangement will be reviewed, which will coincide with Stormont having to vote on whether to continue with the current agreement in the WA or not


I’m still of the opinion that we should go no deal and scrap the WA in its entirety, but out of my hands it’s a UKGov decision.


Stormont and NI seems to have the Veto over this not London. Are the majority in favor of free movement on the Irish island? That is the question.


Free movement between the Irish and GB has been around since 1922 and recently confirmed in the new CTA between the two


As to the veto it’s called “consent” which is part of the Belfast Agreement
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:37 pm

LJ wrote:
The dinner between Ursula Von der Leyen, Boris Johnson, David Frost and Michel Barnier will be a succes........not.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/09/boris-johnson-no-pm-could-accept-trade-terms-offered-by-eu

One begins to wonder if he just goes to Brussels to get a free meal from the EU. Too bad there aren't any cameras during the dinner.


It's all just for the show really.
You have to remember that U. Von der Leyen can legally make no firm concessions whatsoever -even if she wanted to- as she's no mandate from the EU Council to do so! Only M. Barnier has a legal mandate to negotiate and he is on record for admitting having gone till the red lines drawn by the EU Council, so he has no further margin either,

This meeting is simply staged for the British press to have BoJo go to Brussels as a proof he tries very hard to get a deal done.
It would have been quite strange for him to predend he did just that, while he'd never even visited Brussels in person once since these negotiations started...

The best possible outcome from tonight is that the British government makes some sort of a diplomatic opening via some gesture of goodwill which is said to restore confidence, after which U. Von der Leyen and M. Barnier relay this initiative to the EU Council at their meeting tomorrow and further negotiations on this new proposal can then start on Friday...

According to several sources, there seems to be a landing zone identified for the 3 often cited outstanding issues for a FTA; the main point of disagreement is the need for a legally binding ratchet clause vs just some sort of a memorandum of understanding between partners that have confidence in eachothers objectives....
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3713
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:59 pm

A101 wrote:
From my understanding it wasn’t suddenly dropped but a resolution was found in the joint committee from the previous extreme position taken by the EU on border controls and tariffs and exports declarations to the EU backing down the new regime will consist of no exit or export declarations needed for goods going from NI to GB, and no tariffs to apply to goods coming in from Britain. This will apply to trusted traders for the next three and a half years, after which the arrangement will be reviewed, which will coincide with Stormont having to vote on whether to continue with the current agreement in the WA or not
.


And your understanding of the matter comes entirely from reading the official British explanation and taking it at face value, of course... :sarcastic:
That extreme position you refer to is the legal right to check if EU rules agreed to are effectively enforced at the border down the Irish Sea, btw.
Something the British government turned into the most absurd scenarios of a massive EU embassy in Belfast (dixit M. Goove only today!) from which individual checks of each English sausage would be conducted so the people in NI would be at risk of starving to dead even!
Nothing of that sort is in negotiating mandate of M. Barnier, so I wonder where that version comes from even?

It nicely fits the historic habit of British tabloids however to invent the most ridiculous stories about EU rules and it helps reinforce the image of the EU as some sort of an evil empire which is why British politicians generally do not contradict these entirely made up scenarios and even exploit them to their advantage, but as the reality now confirms once more, it's really all the same to the EU whether their must-have random custom checks are conducted from a self-sponsored building flying a massive EU flag on top of it (imagine the horror!), or from some discrete offices in an administrative building their share with the British officials they are going to supervise: the EU doesn't care about the colour of a passport you know, that's just a British characteristic to make a whole fuss about.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:43 pm

just freshly "stolen" somewhere, seems original from a Twitter source.
UK: We want a unicorn
EU: Unicorns do not exist. Instead, you can have a pony.
UK: We vote against your pony.
EU: We already discussed this in detail: its a pony or nothing
UK: We vote against your pony.
EU: Alright! Then you get nothing.
UK: We vote against your nothing.
EU: ...you really don´t get it, do you?
UK: We need more time to think about it.
EU: About a pony or about nothing?
UK: We want a unicorn.



.
 
A101
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:11 pm

sabenapilot wrote:

And your understanding of the matter comes entirely from reading the official British explanation and taking it at face value, of course...




Dito; just change British for EU

sabenapilot wrote:

That extreme position you refer to is the legal right to check if EU rules agreed to are effectively enforced at the border down the Irish Sea, btw.



Might be a right of the EU, but it would also look bad for the EU in potentially risky a return to violence in NI by restricting UK trade to its own sovereign territory in a coercion attempt at the trade negotiations, I wonder what Biden would say if it emerged that the EU was the reason for a return to violence in NI because of the Irish Sea Border

I’d say the IMB did exactly what the UK set out to do and get the joint committee to see the NIP through UK eyes

sabenapilot wrote:

Something the British government turned into the most absurd scenarios of a massive EU embassy in Belfast (dixit M. Goove only today!) from which individual checks of each English sausage would be conducted so the people in NI would be at risk of starving to dead even!



UKGov got what they wanted in trade between NI/GB didn’t they unfettered access, it was either IMB provision or repudiate the WA, which would have been the worst case for the EU?

sabenapilot wrote:

Nothing of that sort is in negotiating mandate of M. Barnier, so I wonder where that version comes from even?


I imagine that would come out in transcripts if and when they are released

sabenapilot wrote:

It nicely fits the historic habit of British tabloids however to invent the most ridiculous stories about EU rules and it helps reinforce the image of the EU as some sort of an evil empire which is why British politicians generally do not contradict these entirely made up scenarios and even exploit them to their advantage, but as the reality now confirms once more, it's really all the same to the EU whether their must-have random custom checks are conducted from a self-sponsored building flying a massive EU flag on top of it (imagine the horror!), or from some discrete offices in an administrative building their share with the British officials they are going to supervise: the EU doesn't care about the colour of a passport you know, that's just a British characteristic to make a whole fuss about.



Well it obviously was a problem for the EU as they made a big fuss over not having their own building to house all the specific technical capabilities they wanted, to just an office space within HMRC. I guess the EU will just have to suffice with a EU embalm emblazoned on there office door and no flag pole on top of the building.

As to the passport I’m not concerned with its colour either just that it does have or say European Community above the UK official name in supremacy like a vassal state
 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:05 am

T4thH wrote:
just freshly "stolen" somewhere, seems original from a Twitter source.
UK: We want a unicorn
EU: Unicorns do not exist. Instead, you can have a pony.
UK: We vote against your pony.
EU: We already discussed this in detail: its a pony or nothing
UK: We vote against your pony.
EU: Alright! Then you get nothing.
UK: We vote against your nothing.
EU: ...you really don´t get it, do you?
UK: We need more time to think about it.
EU: About a pony or about nothing?
UK: We want a unicorn.



.


EU: Give us control of your laws even after you’ve left
Boris: No.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3262
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:07 am

olle wrote:
A101 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
why the UK suddenly dropped the intension to alter the WA via the IMB,



From my understanding it wasn’t suddenly dropped but a resolution was found in the joint committee from the previous extreme position taken by the EU on border controls and tariffs and exports declarations to the EU backing down the new regime will consist of no exit or export declarations needed for goods going from NI to GB, and no tariffs to apply to goods coming in from Britain. This will apply to trusted traders for the next three and a half years, after which the arrangement will be reviewed, which will coincide with Stormont having to vote on whether to continue with the current agreement in the WA or not


I’m still of the opinion that we should go no deal and scrap the WA in its entirety, but out of my hands it’s a UKGov decision.


Stormont and NI seems to have the Veto over this not London. Are the majority in favor of free movement on the Irish island? That is the question.


Free movement of people? The common travel area has been in place for nearly 100 years, before and after the EU. Nothing to do with brexit.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:18 am

Arion640 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
just freshly "stolen" somewhere, seems original from a Twitter source.
UK: We want a unicorn
EU: Unicorns do not exist. Instead, you can have a pony.
UK: We vote against your pony.
EU: We already discussed this in detail: its a pony or nothing
UK: We vote against your pony.
EU: Alright! Then you get nothing.
UK: We vote against your nothing.
EU: ...you really don´t get it, do you?
UK: We need more time to think about it.
EU: About a pony or about nothing?
UK: We want a unicorn.



.


EU: Give us control of your laws even after you’ve left
Boris: No.


That is where you are wrong. The EU asks for nothing from the UK and is not even in a position to do so. It is bound to offer a trade deal as part of the future relationship to the UK, but the UK is free to walk away at any time. In fact the UK does not even need to talk to the EU at all.

The only thing the Eu laid out is under what circumstances the UK could keep full access to the EU´s single market.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14686
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:32 am

seahawk wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
just freshly "stolen" somewhere, seems original from a Twitter source.



.


EU: Give us control of your laws even after you’ve left
Boris: No.


That is where you are wrong. The EU asks for nothing from the UK and is not even in a position to do so. It is bound to offer a trade deal as part of the future relationship to the UK, but the UK is free to walk away at any time. In fact the UK does not even need to talk to the EU at all.

The only thing the Eu laid out is under what circumstances the UK could keep full access to the EU´s single market.


to summarize:

Boris: We want still all the major benefits of being in the EU, but not having to following any EU rules.
EU: No

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12667
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:42 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

EU: Give us control of your laws even after you’ve left
Boris: No.


That is where you are wrong. The EU asks for nothing from the UK and is not even in a position to do so. It is bound to offer a trade deal as part of the future relationship to the UK, but the UK is free to walk away at any time. In fact the UK does not even need to talk to the EU at all.

The only thing the Eu laid out is under what circumstances the UK could keep full access to the EU´s single market.


to summarize:

Boris: We want still all the major benefits of being in the EU, but not having to following any EU rules.
EU: No

best regards
Thomas


Nothing has happened in the past four years. Still chasing unicorns. Still cherry picking. Still the EU protecting its single market.

Talks will go on till Sunday. So perhaps we will see on Sunday a framework or another extension.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:27 am

Grizzly410 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
The main issue remaining however is the ratchet clause as it is called by the UK which would force one side to step up its standards too if the other one does so: this goes well beyond the non-regression agreed to in the Political Declaration on the future agreement which accompanied the WA, but it is said to be key for the EU to sign a FTA...


The ratchet thing really looks like a straw dragon build up recently for PM Johnson to slash it and come back home claiming a huge victory.


I hope not. If the UK wants to (effectively) join the European Free Trade Area for goods then it must follow EFTA rules like all other EFTA members. And that means incorporating EU law related to the free market in domestic law. No ifs, buts or maybes.

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