Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
AeroVega
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:02 am

A101 wrote:
No point in negotiations if the EU is expecting the UK to be the only one doing the compromising


I don't think there is much the EU can do. Giving in even a little bit to UK demands on LPF would be like letting the fox into the hen house. The only good solution for both sides is for the UK to accept the EU position on LPF. The UK can keep the fish as some sort of Brexit trophy.
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:42 am

AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
No point in negotiations if the EU is expecting the UK to be the only one doing the compromising


I don't think there is much the EU can do. Giving in even a little bit to UK demands on LPF would be like letting the fox into the hen house. The only good solution for both sides is for the UK to accept the EU position on LPF. The UK can keep the fish as some sort of Brexit trophy.


EU presented very early the famous / infamous stairway presenting different alternatives based on EU red lines.

Then it was only to compare this with UK red lines.

Both sides of course respecting the other sides red lines must have seen very early that a no deal or extremely basic FTA was the most expected outcome.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:13 am

olle wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
A101 wrote:
No point in negotiations if the EU is expecting the UK to be the only one doing the compromising


I don't think there is much the EU can do. Giving in even a little bit to UK demands on LPF would be like letting the fox into the hen house. The only good solution for both sides is for the UK to accept the EU position on LPF. The UK can keep the fish as some sort of Brexit trophy.


EU presented very early the famous / infamous stairway presenting different alternatives based on EU red lines.

Then it was only to compare this with UK red lines.

Both sides of course respecting the other sides red lines must have seen very early that a no deal or extremely basic FTA was the most expected outcome.


In all fairness, the staircase diagram did imply that a Canadian/South Korea FTA would be the default outcome given the UK's red lines. But it is silly for the UK to think that they are entitled to a Canadian-style FTA because of this diagram.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3352
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:36 am

AeroVega wrote:
olle wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

I don't think there is much the EU can do. Giving in even a little bit to UK demands on LPF would be like letting the fox into the hen house. The only good solution for both sides is for the UK to accept the EU position on LPF. The UK can keep the fish as some sort of Brexit trophy.


EU presented very early the famous / infamous stairway presenting different alternatives based on EU red lines.

Then it was only to compare this with UK red lines.

Both sides of course respecting the other sides red lines must have seen very early that a no deal or extremely basic FTA was the most expected outcome.


In all fairness, the staircase diagram did imply that a Canadian/South Korea FTA would be the default outcome given the UK's red lines. But it is silly for the UK to think that they are entitled to a Canadian-style FTA because of this diagram.


First of all, the diagram did NOT imply that; it was merely understood that way by the UK.

The diagram explicitly showed the best possible outcome after each of the UK's red lines; it never showed the automatic outcome of al those red lines, something which makes sense too btw since the EU is a sovereign entity; it doesn't have to sign up to a FTA if it's not entirely happy with the content of it.

The UK is a third country like any other; it can draw no rights from on its past EU membership which is incidentally what it is doing by just assuming it is automatically entitled to the next lower step in the diagram: such entitlement is only reserved for EU members willing to opt out on certain EU provisions, something the UK regularly did in the past and seems to be so accustomed to that it now has a hard time grasping this kind of a cherry picking attitute is now an unattainable luxury.

Besides, the UK seeks more than just a Canadian FTA like BoJo keeps on telling: for instance, the UK seeks more on aviation, the UK seeks more on services, the UK seeks more on finances, the UK seeks more on pharma, the UK seeks more on education, the UK seeks more on nuclear, the UK seeks more on a whole range of things.... but it does not want to guarantee playing by the same rules as the other 27 participant to that game!
 
agill
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:58 am

Would the UK really want a Canada style deal? There is no services (or at least very little) and nothing about trucking. This can't be a very good thing for the UK?
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:31 am

sabenapilot wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
olle wrote:

EU presented very early the famous / infamous stairway presenting different alternatives based on EU red lines.

Then it was only to compare this with UK red lines.

Both sides of course respecting the other sides red lines must have seen very early that a no deal or extremely basic FTA was the most expected outcome.


In all fairness, the staircase diagram did imply that a Canadian/South Korea FTA would be the default outcome given the UK's red lines. But it is silly for the UK to think that they are entitled to a Canadian-style FTA because of this diagram.


First of all, the diagram did NOT imply that; it was merely understood that way by the UK.

The diagram explicitly showed the best possible outcome after each of the UK's red lines; it never showed the automatic outcome of al those red lines, something which makes sense too btw since the EU is a sovereign entity; it doesn't have to sign up to a FTA if it's not entirely happy with the content of it.

The UK is a third country like any other; it can draw no rights from on its past EU membership which is incidentally what it is doing by just assuming it is automatically entitled to the next lower step in the diagram: such entitlement is only reserved for EU members willing to opt out on certain EU provisions, something the UK regularly did in the past and seems to be so accustomed to that it now has a hard time grasping this kind of a cherry picking attitute is now an unattainable luxury.

Besides, the UK seeks more than just a Canadian FTA like BoJo keeps on telling: for instance, the UK seeks more on aviation, the UK seeks more on services, the UK seeks more on finances, the UK seeks more on pharma, the UK seeks more on education, the UK seeks more on nuclear, the UK seeks more on a whole range of things.... but it does not want to guarantee playing by the same rules as the other 27 participant to that game!


UK says that it wants a Canada, but then there is a lot of buts.

Access to Ehic Card, Erasmus, Single market for financial services without any rules, Free movement for UK experts, etc etc etc.

So Uk says is wants a Norway but with Canada level of obligations.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3352
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:01 am

olle wrote:
So UK says is wants a Norway but with Canada level of obligations.


Nicely worded.

The UK absolutely wants to compare the deal it seeks with the EU with that of Canada, but it only matches it when it comes to the obligations offered;
when it comes to the rights derived from such a deal, what the UK is seeking is very much going in the direction of a Norway/Swiss deal indeed.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3352
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:17 am

agill wrote:
Would the UK really want a Canada style deal? There is no services (or at least very little) and nothing about trucking.


Not just that: the list of practical add-ons the UK seeks to any sort of a Canada-style FTA with Europe is almost endless.

Remember a FTA is about putting import tariffs at zero: it does not cut the red tape on import formalities itself!

And yet this is exactly what the UK wants to see the UK-EU FTA do for obvious practical reasons given the sheer size of UK-EU trade.

Visa free travel for short business trips to Europe, the continued right for British truck haulers to cabotage in the EU , traffic rights for British airlines, equivalance for finances, continued recognition of personal qualifications, ... , ..., ... there are a whole range of freedoms which the UK seeks to preserve through a simple FTA, yet where it does not want to accept the basic notion that as a third country it can not be let to decide how British citizens can excercise those rights without legal oversight by the grantor of those rights.
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:51 am

sabenapilot wrote:
agill wrote:
Would the UK really want a Canada style deal? There is no services (or at least very little) and nothing about trucking.


Not just that: the list of practical add-ons the UK seeks to any sort of a Canada-style FTA with Europe is almost endless.

Remember a FTA is about putting import tariffs at zero: it does not cut the red tape on import formalities itself!

And yet this is exactly what the UK wants to see the UK-EU FTA do for obvious practical reasons given the sheer size of UK-EU trade.

Visa free travel for short business trips to Europe, the continued right for British truck haulers to cabotage in the EU , traffic rights for British airlines, equivalance for finances, continued recognition of personal qualifications, ... , ..., ... there are a whole range of freedoms which the UK seeks to preserve through a simple FTA, yet where it does not want to accept the basic notion that as a third country it can not be let to decide how British citizens can excercise those rights without legal oversight by the grantor of those rights.


So it want a Norway with Canada obligations.

What is so interesting is EU try to explain this to UK government month after month and this is the central part of our discussion between our dear brexiteers and some of other of us... How complicated can it be?

Can we all agree about that UK right now wants a Norway style but of different reasons wants Canada obligations? A101 do you agree? If you disagree where do UK wish list differ from Norway?
 
User avatar
mikhail1982
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:40 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:53 am

The UK's negotiating position is a mess because the people negotiating do not understand what they want or how trade works. The UK hasn't had its own trade negotiators for decades. It doesn't have the skills and experience because all the people with the skills and experience work at the EU. Consequently you have the idealogues who don't understand the impact of what they want and the civil servants who are unable to get them to understand the impact of what the idealogues call for.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9765
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:19 pm

More a problem of the mindset. As long as the UK was in the EU it could block decisions by simply pointing out their own red lines and having the EU work to find a compromise. This ended when the UK left.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4426
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:34 pm

mikhail1982 wrote:
The UK's negotiating position is a mess because the people negotiating do not understand what they want or how trade works. The UK hasn't had its own trade negotiators for decades. It doesn't have the skills and experience because all the people with the skills and experience work at the EU. Consequently you have the idealogues who don't understand the impact of what they want and the civil servants who are unable to get them to understand the impact of what the idealogues call for.


Actually the UK does have qualified negotiators. But Brexiters are unwilling to define what they want and what the needed compromises are. Hence able negotiators are not willing to serve, or have been moved aside.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11987
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:48 pm

seahawk wrote:
More a problem of the mindset. As long as the UK was in the EU it could block decisions by simply pointing out their own red lines and having the EU work to find a compromise. This ended when the UK left.


:checkmark:

An interview with Michael Gove being picked apart.

I think he is 100% right. It is interesting to see what Michael Gove does here. It just shows one of many ways the Brexiteers are lying to the British public and the way they are trying to frame the EU as a non-compromising entity.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2117
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:35 pm

Some interesting insight from the not particularly Brexit-friendly Robert Peston at the very pro-Brexit Spectator:

“The EU’s response is that UK businesses and exports are so much more embedded in its markets than Canada that the UK would represent a much greater risk of unfair competition were it to adopt a market-distorting regime of subsidies. And the EU would also say that it has moved a distance from its original position on this, in that it dropped a stipulation that there would be any role for the European Court of Justice in enforcing the rules – because it recognises this is toxic to Brexiters.“
....

The point is that the EU has moved and is prepared to be more flexible still on all Johnson’s other red lines, including access and quotas for EU fishermen in UK waters.

But on state aid my understanding is the EU’s position is thus far and no further. “


https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is- ... rade-deal-

The article goes on to blame Cummings, and suggests that Boris can’t make up his mind on whether or not he wants a deal - partly because he’s concerned that any deal he gets might not be the best deal actually available (or something to that effect). Something Peston calls “The Arafat Trap”.

Frankly sounds like Brexiteers still haven’t figured out what is in the realm of the possible. Echo chambers do that.
 
A101
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:40 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Paul Goodman - a Brexiteer running the pro-Brexit Conservative Home - is putting out “remain spin” now?

Maybe he’s just calling it as it is - that all of this noise is aimed at priming Brexiteers to celebrate any upcoming compromises and climb-downs and/or half-baked deal as a “victory”. As we saw with the the now unacceptable WA last year. A lot of Brexiteers got duped into celebrating that as a “triumph”; Goodman knows there’s precedent.

Anyway, far be it from me to stop one Brexiteer from savaging another Brexiteer for not being as ideologically pure. Feel free to take Goodman’s analysis apart.


If you referenced to him actually link to him, the BBC link attempt didn’t appear to be attributed to anyone

You're link:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54589655


Look, I don’t mean to be rude, but are you having difficulty reading my posts? Are they too complicated? Do you need me to simplify them more to make them accessible to you?

If not, at least have the decency to read through a post before replying with silly claims and accusations.

The link is in the post you quoted. You’ll see it. You’ll even see it in my post that you quoted with your bizarre response. Here - try again:

A101 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Apparently the door is “still ajar” for more talks, so it’s not clear what the “talks over” on Friday was all about. Guess they’re playing to what their Brexiteer audience want to hear, while not meaning it?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54589655

Anyway, some insightful analysis from (the very pro- Brexit) Paul Goodman at the Conservative Home:

“Perhaps we are being too world-weary – perish the thought – but a talks bust-up was always likely. But it does not, repeat not, mean that No Deal (or “an Australia-type deal”, as Ministers put it) is now inevitable, even if Michel Barnier does not come to London for talks this week, which appears to be the case as we write.

Indeed, a flare-up looks suspiciously like part of the diplomatic dance, a piece of choreography, before the last-minute dash to Brussels; the overnight wait for news; the bleary-eyed dawn press conferences, and the claim that we have won the “Canada-style” trade that we wanted, and that Johnson has “played a blinder”.”

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetor ... of-it.html

Guess even the Tory mouthpiece is now signalling that all of the noise coming out of London is aimed at duping Brexiteers into believing a half-baked deal from this point on is some kind of “victory”.

But, really, it’s the remainers who look down at Brexiteers, not the folk who’re so sure they can dupe Brexiteers, they’re putting up these types of transparent ruses.


Typical remain spin LOL

More like the EU have signaled it is not prepared to negotiate but dosnt want to look like ii is walking away.

The response from the UK don’t come Monday if you are not serious about negotiations hence the disinvite from Frost to Barnier

No point in negotiations if the EU is expecting the UK to be the only one doing the compromising


PS- it’s a direct quote from Goodman’s article.



My apologies I missed the con home link when I read your post.

I guess I should not post when tired after doing a 16 hour day then having a couple of beers after
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:45 am

Now we are down to the last few days of the FTA negotiations... Ít seems to be an Australia version - as close to No Deal it is possible and still calling it FTA

Soon it will be time to see how this will impact on day to day business and relations 1/1 2021
 
AeroVega
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:49 am

sabenapilot wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
olle wrote:

EU presented very early the famous / infamous stairway presenting different alternatives based on EU red lines.

Then it was only to compare this with UK red lines.

Both sides of course respecting the other sides red lines must have seen very early that a no deal or extremely basic FTA was the most expected outcome.


In all fairness, the staircase diagram did imply that a Canadian/South Korea FTA would be the default outcome given the UK's red lines. But it is silly for the UK to think that they are entitled to a Canadian-style FTA because of this diagram.


First of all, the diagram did NOT imply that; it was merely understood that way by the UK.


No. That's just your attempt to rewrite history. Back in 2017, this is what Reuters had to say about it.

Reuters wrote:
A free trade deal with the European Union similar to those it has with Canada and South Korea is the logical outcome of Britain’s Brexit “red lines” and EU rules, according to a graphic issued by EU negotiator Michel Barnier on Tuesday.


Source: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1ED23R

There is no other reasonable interpretation of a big, fat arrow pointing to a Canadian flag with a big checkmark underneath as the logical conclusion of the UK's red lines.

Was the diagram a mistake. In hindsight, yes. Can the UK derive any rights from it. Of course not. But you must be enormous EU fanboy if you cannot just admit the diagram was a mistake.
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:16 am

I think that EU made pretty clear for UK and UK public that the famous stairway was a combination of cost (obligation) contra gain (access to SM, Passporting, Health care, ERASMUS, etc).

If Brexiteers now consider that this was unclear I think that Brexiteers shall ask them self if they are to blame while not learning and getting informed, and EU cannot be blamed while they have been trying to explain this with apple and pears.
 
Ertro
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:20 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Was the diagram a mistake. In hindsight, yes. Can the UK derive any rights from it. Of course not. But you must be enormous EU fanboy if you cannot just admit the diagram was a mistake.


Could you spell out what is the mistake? Because I don't get it.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3352
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:51 pm

AeroVega wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

In all fairness, the staircase diagram did imply that a Canadian/South Korea FTA would be the default outcome given the UK's red lines. But it is silly for the UK to think that they are entitled to a Canadian-style FTA because of this diagram.


First of all, the diagram did NOT imply that; it was merely understood that way by the UK.


No. That's just your attempt to rewrite history. Back in 2017, this is what Reuters had to say about it.

Reuters wrote:
A free trade deal with the European Union similar to those it has with Canada and South Korea is the logical outcome of Britain’s Brexit “red lines” and EU rules, according to a graphic issued by EU negotiator Michel Barnier on Tuesday.


Source: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1ED23R

There is no other reasonable interpretation of a big, fat arrow pointing to a Canadian flag with a big checkmark underneath as the logical conclusion of the UK's red lines.

Was the diagram a mistake. In hindsight, yes. Can the UK derive any rights from it. Of course not. But you must be enormous EU fanboy if you cannot just admit the diagram was a mistake.


Reuters is now an official EU institution then?

As you say, they've INTERPRETED the diagram that way indeed; nobody in the EU ever said it was a flow chart in which the stairway AUTOMATICALLY would lead to a guaranteed FTA.
All the diagram does is show that each of the higher outcomes are impossible from the start due to self-imposed British red lines: for a FTA, there are no prior British red lines making the outcome impossible from the start and so it can be negotiated, but it still needs to be negotiated of course!

The UK has become a third country like so many others now, meaning the EU is under no further obligation whatsoever to give the UK a FTA if it doesn't fit its own needs.
That this elementary principle of what it means to be a third country should have been explicitly mentioned all along according to you, is indicative of just what a huge sense of entitlement there seems to be in the minds of some!

Nothing to do with being a fanboy: just some elementary understanding of rights and obligations of foreign countries I should think?
Is the USA for instance OBLIGED to give the UK the FTA it is begging for? Of course not... then why would the EU be obliged to do so?
Because there's a diagram that you could somehow interpret to give the impression such was an guaranteed outcome in the worst case?
ROTFL
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:15 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

First of all, the diagram did NOT imply that; it was merely understood that way by the UK.


No. That's just your attempt to rewrite history. Back in 2017, this is what Reuters had to say about it.

Reuters wrote:
A free trade deal with the European Union similar to those it has with Canada and South Korea is the logical outcome of Britain’s Brexit “red lines” and EU rules, according to a graphic issued by EU negotiator Michel Barnier on Tuesday.


Source: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1ED23R

There is no other reasonable interpretation of a big, fat arrow pointing to a Canadian flag with a big checkmark underneath as the logical conclusion of the UK's red lines.

Was the diagram a mistake. In hindsight, yes. Can the UK derive any rights from it. Of course not. But you must be enormous EU fanboy if you cannot just admit the diagram was a mistake.


Reuters is now an official EU institution then?

As you say, they've INTERPRETED the diagram that way indeed; nobody in the EU ever said it was a flow chart in which the stairway AUTOMATICALLY would lead to a guaranteed FTA.

The UK has become a third country like so many others now, meaning the EU is under no further obligation whatsoever to give the UK a FTA if it doesn't fit its own needs.
That this elementary principle of what it means to be a third country should have been explicitly mentioned all along according to you, is indicative of just what a huge sense of entitlement there seems to be in the minds of some!

Nothing to do with being a fanboy: just some elementary understanding of rights and obligations of foreign countries I should think?
Is the USA for instance OBLIGED to give the UK the FTA it is begging for? Of course not... then why would the EU be obliged to do so?
Because there's a diagram that you could somehow interpret to give the impression such was an guaranteed outcome in the worst case?
ROTFL


As I remember it the stairway was a way for EU to speed up negotiations by showing early how its red lines effected UK possibility to get different level of access to EU in combination to obligations for each step.

While each step is quit detailed and complicated to understand it was a visual way for the UK citizen in the street to easy get a picture what it meant in steps from very basic up to Norway before being full member.

The stairway was official and then it is up to for example Reuter to try to explain for its readers what is the Norway option means, what Turkey means, Canada means etc.

I think it is a very brilliant explanation of red lines, thousands pages of details presented into one slide.

To be brief this is the red lines that UK need to respekt in order to get a FTA. It has been visual for every UK citizen and news outlet for years.

UK also need to understand that if it gets Norway with Canada level of obligation all countries in the different steps has the right to request a very similar deal in most cases depending how their FTA look like.

Why are we even discussing this the last few days before any attempt of negotiation is past? If anything shall be valid 1 of January it need to be defined probably as latest this week.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4426
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:19 pm

Canada has a trade agreement with the EU, and it is limited. It also took several years to negotiate and both parties seem OK with it. So, UK, get to work ....... And meantime there is the crippled WTO to fall back on (wretched pun).
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:23 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Canada has a trade agreement with the EU, and it is limited. It also took several years to negotiate and both parties seem OK with it. So, UK, get to work ....... And meantime there is the crippled WTO to fall back on (wretched pun).


As I understand it that without even a basic FTA airplanes will not be able to fly between UK and EU.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2117
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:48 pm

AeroVega wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

In all fairness, the staircase diagram did imply that a Canadian/South Korea FTA would be the default outcome given the UK's red lines. But it is silly for the UK to think that they are entitled to a Canadian-style FTA because of this diagram.


First of all, the diagram did NOT imply that; it was merely understood that way by the UK.


No. That's just your attempt to rewrite history. Back in 2017, this is what Reuters had to say about it.

Reuters wrote:
A free trade deal with the European Union similar to those it has with Canada and South Korea is the logical outcome of Britain’s Brexit “red lines” and EU rules, according to a graphic issued by EU negotiator Michel Barnier on Tuesday.


Source: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1ED23R

There is no other reasonable interpretation of a big, fat arrow pointing to a Canadian flag with a big checkmark underneath as the logical conclusion of the UK's red lines.

Was the diagram a mistake. In hindsight, yes. Can the UK derive any rights from it. Of course not. But you must be enormous EU fanboy if you cannot just admit the diagram was a mistake.


The diagram has both the Canada and the South Korea trade deals listed.

Are the EU-Canada and the EU-South Korea Trade deals identical?

If not, logic would dictate that the diagram didn’t offer a Canada-style agreement any more or less than it offered a South Korea-style agreement. We don’t hear about the latter too often, which suggests they are different. Is the deal on the table better or worse than the Korea deal?

But I broadly agree that it was a mistake for the EU to put up a vague diagram that’s open to interpretation. As the WA shenanigans have shown us, Brexiteers have a happy habit of embracing self-serving interpretations - no matter how objectively false - and running with them. Only a Brexiteer fanboy would deny that.
 
LJ
Posts: 5386
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:55 pm

AeroVega wrote:
Was the diagram a mistake. In hindsight, yes. Can the UK derive any rights from it. Of course not. But you must be enormous EU fanboy if you cannot just admit the diagram was a mistake.


In essence I agree. However, how did the diagram become public? Or better, was it the intention that the diagram was made public as it cleary mentioned it was "for infromation purposes only". If the diagram was intended for internal use only, I do not see it as a mistake. If they intend it to become public, I would argue that it is a mistake in the sense that the EU should have considered this interpretation.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:04 pm

A101 wrote:


You do reliase that Ineos Automotive was formed after the referenda, I imagine he was also intending to sell to the EU market when he decide to build manufacturing plants in both the UK and Portugal Portugal (chassis and body) and UK (final assembly)


They are currently looking to make whole assembly in France instead.

https://www.carscoops.com/2020/07/ineos ... s-on-hold/

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/feat ... ial-roader

And in any case we're looking at a manufacturer making maybe 20.000 units a year. Drip in the bucket.
 
Ertro
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:58 pm

I would like if somebody would explain WHY they think publishing the diagram is a mistake instead of just declaring something bad without explaining WHY and considering options. This is the same mindset that originated the whole brexit problem. People do not want to explain why they think something and because they haven't formulated it into words they don't notice that they have thought completely wrong.

I might be wrong also but I cannot know what it is and how I think differently than you since you refuse to explain what it is that you think.

The main reason I cannot understand what is wrong in publishing the diagram and putting canada option on the table is that.
A) Without it being on the table brexiteers could claim that EU only wants to force UK into single market and therefore EU is very bad. Now that canada model is on the table brexiteers don't have this argument.
B) Brexiteers really don't want the canada model. It includes border checks on goods passing the channel and that is enough to kill UK economy.
If UK could survive with canada model UK would have started to negotiate for it years ago and started really build the border checkpoints on dover.

Conclusion. Diagram with Canada model is essential to force UK to choose between 3 bad options. No-deal, Canada or Norway model and whatever they choose and whatever bad happens it is the UK's choise and blame is on brexiteers whatever they choose and not on EU. If there would not have been Canada model on the table brexiteers could blame EU on both cases, whether they choose no-deal or norway model because "EU was so mean they did not want to consider anything else than single market solutions"
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9765
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:34 pm

It is only a blame game. Brexiteers will use the diagram and claim the EU always wanted to give them Canada only and that is a bad deal, so better no deal than a bad deal. In the Brexiteers minds the UK never had to choose, the EU had to meet the needs of the UK.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13404
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:34 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
The article goes on to blame Cummings, and suggests that Boris can’t make up his mind on whether or not he wants a deal - partly because he’s concerned that any deal he gets might not be the best deal actually available (or something to that effect). Something Peston calls “The Arafat Trap”.

Frankly sounds like Brexiteers still haven’t figured out what is in the realm of the possible. Echo chambers do that.


Cummings seem to be some kind of US style libertarian, in fact he was just caught having cheated taxes for decades (and got away with it, of course).

Putting someone like that in charge of a country, if the people of that country aren't of the same mindset, can only lead to disaster.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ertro
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:39 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is only a blame game. Brexiteers will use the diagram and claim the EU always wanted to give them Canada only and that is a bad deal, so better no deal than a bad deal. In the Brexiteers minds the UK never had to choose, the EU had to meet the needs of the UK.


Yeah they could try that, but they haven't and even if they would it would not get traction since everybody can see there are other options on the table. And then there are Canada---, Canada-, Canada, Canada+, Canada+++ and Canada+++++++++++ options and everybody can see that none of those is happening for a reason that nobody from UK side has really started to negotiate towards any of them or even articulate what from those 12 Canada-style options it is that UK wants. No blame on EU that could stick.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13404
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:40 pm

AeroVega wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
AeroVega wrote:

In all fairness, the staircase diagram did imply that a Canadian/South Korea FTA would be the default outcome given the UK's red lines. But it is silly for the UK to think that they are entitled to a Canadian-style FTA because of this diagram.


First of all, the diagram did NOT imply that; it was merely understood that way by the UK.


No. That's just your attempt to rewrite history. Back in 2017, this is what Reuters had to say about it.

Reuters wrote:
A free trade deal with the European Union similar to those it has with Canada and South Korea is the logical outcome of Britain’s Brexit “red lines” and EU rules, according to a graphic issued by EU negotiator Michel Barnier on Tuesday.


Source: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1ED23R

There is no other reasonable interpretation of a big, fat arrow pointing to a Canadian flag with a big checkmark underneath as the logical conclusion of the UK's red lines.

Was the diagram a mistake. In hindsight, yes. Can the UK derive any rights from it. Of course not. But you must be enormous EU fanboy if you cannot just admit the diagram was a mistake.


The UK added more red lines, that's the problem.

Also, it took seven years to negotiate the Canada deal, it isn't even fully ratified now, and the EU said right away that the timetable of the UK was unrealistic.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A101
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:43 pm

JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:


You do reliase that Ineos Automotive was formed after the referenda, I imagine he was also intending to sell to the EU market when he decide to build manufacturing plants in both the UK and Portugal Portugal (chassis and body) and UK (final assembly)


They are currently looking to make whole assembly in France instead.

https://www.carscoops.com/2020/07/ineos ... s-on-hold/

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/feat ... ial-roader

And in any case we're looking at a manufacturer making maybe 20.000 units a year. Drip in the bucket.


Gee that’s a fair while ago when that topic came up. But any way the reason behind the move away from twin plants was that the factory came up for sale in France which had just had a modernisation done to it not long ago by daimler and with the Covid affecting its timetable on car production as the factory in Portugal/UK might not be finished in time. They were looking at the French plant only so they could keep to the original production timelines.

As for units built/sold it’s a Land Rover replacement vehicle because the defender was discontinued it was always only going to have a small run you would have to compare it to what it’s replacing to see if it’s worth the effort or not
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13404
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:50 pm

olle wrote:
Now we are down to the last few days of the FTA negotiations... Ít seems to be an Australia version - as close to No Deal it is possible and still calling it FTA

Soon it will be time to see how this will impact on day to day business and relations 1/1 2021


olle wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Canada has a trade agreement with the EU, and it is limited. It also took several years to negotiate and both parties seem OK with it. So, UK, get to work ....... And meantime there is the crippled WTO to fall back on (wretched pun).


As I understand it that without even a basic FTA airplanes will not be able to fly between UK and EU.


FTA means free trade agreement. The EU doesn't have one with Australia (but is trying to). Deals on aviation and other issues, bilateral agreements, are plentiful, between all countries, but they're not called FTAs. An FTA means no/very little tariffs and quotas on most goods.

Australia/No Deal means there will be tariffs and quotas, according to the WTO schedule.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:00 pm

Ertro wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is only a blame game. Brexiteers will use the diagram and claim the EU always wanted to give them Canada only and that is a bad deal, so better no deal than a bad deal. In the Brexiteers minds the UK never had to choose, the EU had to meet the needs of the UK.


Yeah they could try that, but they haven't and even if they would it would not get traction since everybody can see there are other options on the table. And then there are Canada---, Canada-, Canada, Canada+, Canada+++ and Canada+++++++++++ options and everybody can see that none of those is happening for a reason that nobody from UK side has really started to negotiate towards any of them or even articulate what from those 12 Canada-style options it is that UK wants. No blame on EU that could stick.


All this was possible as long as UK was a member state that EU was trying to keep... At one moment UK came back from having the ++++++ membership and wanted the +++++++++++++++++ membership and the rest of EU said.. Sorry but no thanks.

As a third party this is all lost. if it wants Canada +++++++++ or Norway model for Canada --- obligations... Good luck!
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:05 pm

Aesma wrote:
olle wrote:
Now we are down to the last few days of the FTA negotiations... Ít seems to be an Australia version - as close to No Deal it is possible and still calling it FTA

Soon it will be time to see how this will impact on day to day business and relations 1/1 2021


olle wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Canada has a trade agreement with the EU, and it is limited. It also took several years to negotiate and both parties seem OK with it. So, UK, get to work ....... And meantime there is the crippled WTO to fall back on (wretched pun).


As I understand it that without even a basic FTA airplanes will not be able to fly between UK and EU.






FTA means free trade agreement. The EU doesn't have one with Australia (but is trying to). Deals on aviation and other issues, bilateral agreements, are plentiful, between all countries, but they're not called FTAs. An FTA means no/very little tariffs and quotas on most goods.

Australia/No Deal means there will be tariffs and quotas, according to the WTO schedule.


Sorry for mixing things;

70 days to go and no agreement;

But his remarks made it clear that, with 78 days to go, there is currently no legal framework for flights to continue to operate from 1 January 2021.

Mr Shapps said: “For road and aviation, both sides are in broad agreement that operators from the UK and the EU should have rights to provide services between the UK and EU and that will be the basis of agreement.

“We hope it will be possible to agree some sensible additional flexibilities. Despite public statements from Brussels we are not seeking to replicate our current single-market rights

“We are rather exploring some limited additional flexibilities for both road and air that would be of benefit to both sides. We hope the EU will engage with these.

“Negotiations as you know have been intensified in recent weeks, and although time’s now tight, we remain hopeful that an agreement can be achieved.

“It’s critical that flights between the UK and the EU can continue to operate as normal at the end of the transition period, regardless of the outcome of these negotiations.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 35344.html
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4426
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:52 pm

Assuming no FTA (which does not mean no agreements) it seems essential that the parties commencing in November start coming up with emergency agreements on a whole variety of sectors. Does the WA have anything about that, and if so, what?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2117
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:29 pm

olle wrote:
Ertro wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is only a blame game. Brexiteers will use the diagram and claim the EU always wanted to give them Canada only and that is a bad deal, so better no deal than a bad deal. In the Brexiteers minds the UK never had to choose, the EU had to meet the needs of the UK.


Yeah they could try that, but they haven't and even if they would it would not get traction since everybody can see there are other options on the table. And then there are Canada---, Canada-, Canada, Canada+, Canada+++ and Canada+++++++++++ options and everybody can see that none of those is happening for a reason that nobody from UK side has really started to negotiate towards any of them or even articulate what from those 12 Canada-style options it is that UK wants. No blame on EU that could stick.


All this was possible as long as UK was a member state that EU was trying to keep... At one moment UK came back from having the ++++++ membership and wanted the +++++++++++++++++ membership and the rest of EU said.. Sorry but no thanks.

As a third party this is all lost. if it wants Canada +++++++++ or Norway model for Canada --- obligations... Good luck!


Sounds like there is a simple solution:

Dress it up as a “Canada minus” deal and call it a day. That way the EU won’t have to make any concessions they don’t want to, and Brexiteers can go around claiming they got their beloved Canada-style deal (a Canada minus deal is as much a Canada deal as a Canada + deal).

The WA shenanigans have already showed us how easy it is to dupe some folk into believing they emerged victorious for at least a few months. This way, there’s a deal in place January 1, 2020, and the Brexit Party and the Tories can trade blows for the next four years while the EU moves on.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13404
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:19 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Assuming no FTA (which does not mean no agreements) it seems essential that the parties commencing in November start coming up with emergency agreements on a whole variety of sectors. Does the WA have anything about that, and if so, what?


The rights of UK and EU citizens are covered. The financial services are covered (transition period is basically extended). Aviation is being negotiated.

The problem is that some in the UK are calling for, and the government seems to be ready to, rip up the WA. If that happens, then there is basically nothing, aside from what the EU decided unilaterally.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LJ
Posts: 5386
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:20 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Assuming no FTA (which does not mean no agreements) it seems essential that the parties commencing in November start coming up with emergency agreements on a whole variety of sectors. Does the WA have anything about that, and if so, what?


AFAIK the WA does not have anything specific, but the EU does have a list of unilateral contingency measures it can/will take (provided they're mirrored by the UK) on some basic issues like aviation and railway transport.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/eu-affairs/20190313STO31215/brexit-plans-in-place-to-mitigate-impact-of-no-deal
 
JJJ
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:42 am

A101 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A101 wrote:


You do reliase that Ineos Automotive was formed after the referenda, I imagine he was also intending to sell to the EU market when he decide to build manufacturing plants in both the UK and Portugal Portugal (chassis and body) and UK (final assembly)


They are currently looking to make whole assembly in France instead.

https://www.carscoops.com/2020/07/ineos ... s-on-hold/

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/feat ... ial-roader

And in any case we're looking at a manufacturer making maybe 20.000 units a year. Drip in the bucket.


Gee that’s a fair while ago when that topic came up. But any way the reason behind the move away from twin plants was that the factory came up for sale in France which had just had a modernisation done to it not long ago by daimler and with the Covid affecting its timetable on car production as the factory in Portugal/UK might not be finished in time. They were looking at the French plant only so they could keep to the original production timelines.


If a 2nd hand off the shelf solution works for you the rationale for having one foot on each side of the channel was pretty weak to begin with.

Let's not forget who's behind this whole thing and where his tax residency has recently changed.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2117
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:51 pm

Judging by what’s being written on the very pro-Brexit Telegraph, looks Like Goodman/ConHome was right: all the noise coming out of the UK over the past few weeks has been for Brexiteer consumption, and should just be generally ignored outside its intended audience.

Seems UK Ministers are now using a fairly anodyne statement from Barnier to say a deal is still possible. Cant help but wonder if the UK asked Barnier to issue that statement to help them climb back down.

Probably doesn’t matter anyway. The perpetually muddled Brexit hive-mind, with its constantly shifting goal posts, is displaying symptoms of “once bitten, twice why”, with the apparently influential ones - Farage and Howe QC, now declaring that anything short of full revolution of the WA (aka “no deal”) = BRINO.

To wit:

“An Australia-style exit really would represent a clean break Brexit. Britain could reject the withdrawal agreement and begin 2021 with some basic agreements on the rights of EU citizens and on border controls.

“If Johnson went down this path, I would support him 100 per cent and by the time of the next general election, there would be a real possibility of a Canada-style free trade agreement.”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... is-johnson

I guess Farage wants to stay relevant till the next UK election. Even if it means dragging on this Brexit debate till then. Seems nothing is ever enough for Brexiteers. Even if it means the UK will be stuck in Brexit Groundhog Day for years to come. Obviously, this is all the EU’s fault.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4426
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:44 pm

LJ wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Assuming no FTA (which does not mean no agreements) it seems essential that the parties commencing in November start coming up with emergency agreements on a whole variety of sectors. Does the WA have anything about that, and if so, what?


AFAIK the WA does not have anything specific, but the EU does have a list of unilateral contingency measures it can/will take (provided they're mirrored by the UK) on some basic issues like aviation and railway transport.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/eu-affairs/20190313STO31215/brexit-plans-in-place-to-mitigate-impact-of-no-deal


That is a short and useful summary. It does not, per your mention, say how the WA policy will integrate with those 'unilateral contingency measures'. Does anyone have a link to that? Or possibly the UK has done none of the real and hard work to do so.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3352
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:08 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Judging by what’s being written on the very pro-Brexit Telegraph, looks Like Goodman/ConHome was right: all the noise coming out of the UK over the past few weeks has been for Brexiteer consumption, and should just be generally ignored outside its intended audience.

Seems UK Ministers are now using a fairly anodyne statement from Barnier to say a deal is still possible. Cant help but wonder if the UK asked Barnier to issue that statement to help them climb back down.


As was widely expected, the EU has set again a ladder for the British PM to climb down on.
This was obvious the moment BoJo missed the deadline to just walk away, wasn't it?

And so the UK goes from victory to victory, first with the WA in round one and now with the FTA to be negotiated in round two... :sarcastic:
Wonder how long it will take before the Tories will want to renegotiate that FTA too once ratified in a hurry at the end of this year?
I guess by summer 2021 they'll again be complaining about its unfair content, probably because it will be said to prevent them from stiking FTAs with others in exactly the way they'd want?
After all: the EU is their lifeline to explain all problems in the UK with; without it, they'd have to take credit for their own failures, so expect Brexit to be a never ending story.

Some things never change, do they?
 
LJ
Posts: 5386
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:21 pm

And they're going to talk again (pick your link peending on your personal viewpoint, though I do advice the Express as it contains the highest amusement value, especally if you take the comments into account).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/21/uk-welcomes-barnier-significant-remarks-on-unlocking-brexit-talks
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1350633/Brexit-news-boris-johnson-michel-barnier-uk-eu-trade-deal-latest-david-frost-no-dea
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8472
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:49 pm

I’m constantly amused by regular references to the “Australian model”. It seems to be predicated on some weird concept that Australia is exactly like the UK, just sunnier and with strange animals.

Other than canned vegetables on the shelves of every Australian supermarket coming from Italy, and that some Australians above a certain income threshold like driving German cars, trade between Australia and the European Union is negligible.

Pointing to a random country on the other side of the world and saying “look, they survive without an agreement with the EU!!” is asinine.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:32 pm

LJ wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Was the diagram a mistake. In hindsight, yes. Can the UK derive any rights from it. Of course not. But you must be enormous EU fanboy if you cannot just admit the diagram was a mistake.


In essence I agree. However, how did the diagram become public? Or better, was it the intention that the diagram was made public as it cleary mentioned it was "for infromation purposes only". If the diagram was intended for internal use only, I do not see it as a mistake. If they intend it to become public, I would argue that it is a mistake in the sense that the EU should have considered this interpretation.


For information does not mean internal use only. Indeed, that diagram was shown in many public fora including the European Parliament if I'm not mistaken. I'd go further and say it was *intended* to publicly show-up the lack of clarity on the UK side and spell out to anyone interested what the consequences would be for May's endless series of red lines.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:37 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
I guess Farage wants to stay relevant till the next UK election. Even if it means dragging on this Brexit debate till then. Seems nothing is ever enough for Brexiteers. Even if it means the UK will be stuck in Brexit Groundhog Day for years to come. Obviously, this is all the EU’s fault.


I recently rediscovered this cartoon and was struck how it is still relevant after a year and a half...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ss-cartoon
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13404
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:15 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Judging by what’s being written on the very pro-Brexit Telegraph, looks Like Goodman/ConHome was right: all the noise coming out of the UK over the past few weeks has been for Brexiteer consumption, and should just be generally ignored outside its intended audience.

Seems UK Ministers are now using a fairly anodyne statement from Barnier to say a deal is still possible. Cant help but wonder if the UK asked Barnier to issue that statement to help them climb back down.

Probably doesn’t matter anyway. The perpetually muddled Brexit hive-mind, with its constantly shifting goal posts, is displaying symptoms of “once bitten, twice why”, with the apparently influential ones - Farage and Howe QC, now declaring that anything short of full revolution of the WA (aka “no deal”) = BRINO.

To wit:

“An Australia-style exit really would represent a clean break Brexit. Britain could reject the withdrawal agreement and begin 2021 with some basic agreements on the rights of EU citizens and on border controls.

“If Johnson went down this path, I would support him 100 per cent and by the time of the next general election, there would be a real possibility of a Canada-style free trade agreement.”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... is-johnson

I guess Farage wants to stay relevant till the next UK election. Even if it means dragging on this Brexit debate till then. Seems nothing is ever enough for Brexiteers. Even if it means the UK will be stuck in Brexit Groundhog Day for years to come. Obviously, this is all the EU’s fault.


The EU should set a cooldown/dealing with COVID period if no deal is signed before the end of the year, let's say take 2021 off ? We can talk again in 2022.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LJ
Posts: 5386
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:14 am

It's almost funny that a Finnish right-wing MEP predicts that The Netherlands will follow the UK with a NEXIT......... I wonder why she gets such a podium in the Express (it isn't the first time she appears in the Express) other than cognitive dissonance....


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1350902/brexit-news-finland-finnish-mep-laura-Huhtasaari-finns-party-frugal-five-coronavirus
 
olle
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:36 am

According to Express we can expect Italy, Sweden, France, Poland, Finland, Netherlands to be the first to do exit and that very soon...

The problem is that Brexit has shown what an Exit means not mentioning that the idea of an exit is to stand outside EU, SM etc and with full access with lower standards have a market to compete in by lower standards.

The problem is that if all leaves there is no SM to compete in. Only Bilateral agreement and we are back where we started in 1980.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArchGuy1, Bing [Bot] and 26 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos