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bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:09 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54194339

'The Road Haulage Association has described its meeting with Michael Gove about post-Brexit arrangements as "a washout".

The body said there had been "no clarity" from the senior minister on how border checks will operate when the transition period ends after December'.

There is not a lot of time to get things in place.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:15 pm

The UK can reasonably ask how the EU will facilitate NI/UK trade, if they will reasonably share the costs, and if the UK/EU special commission will be instructed to make this anomalous border as hassle free as possible. This should be a non-event.
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bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:15 pm

Why should they share the cost to the UK.

Ireland will need to cover their costs.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:26 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Why should they share the cost to the UK.

Ireland will need to cover their costs.


It is a difficult situation. The UK has to separate a small section for the benefit of the EU. It is to protect the common border of the EU. About no-one wants any chance of the GFA to fail. Hell, if they asked the US to give some financial assistance to make the WA agreement work I would expect my legislators to support it. And it should not be all that expensive. A prosperous UK,NI, ROI, and EU is in everyone's interest including Russia and except for Putin.
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ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:56 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The UK can reasonably ask how the EU will facilitate NI/UK trade, if they will reasonably share the costs, and if the UK/EU special commission will be instructed to make this anomalous border as hassle free as possible. This should be a non-event.


If this goes to no deal/WTO, customs checks are required under the WTO’s actual rules to ensure that the UK and/or EU do not benefit from more market access than other WTO members by virtue of insufficient WTO rules enforcement. The WA puts those checks in the Irish Sea.

The cost itself is irrelevant. The UK objects to having a border between two parts of its own country, and the US and EU (including Ireland) don’t want a border on the island. If this had been easy to resolve (remember technological solutions promised by Brexiteers for 4 years now?), it wouldn’t have turned into this spectacle.

But that’s besides the point. The bigger takeaway is that the UK is seen as the disruptor both in the EU, and the the US. Anything that follows is inevitably seen a consequence of the UK’s decision. Thats the aspect of the US messaging that appears to have rattled Brexiteers the most, judging by the articles going up on the Telegraph and ConHome.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:12 am

ElPistolero wrote:
The bigger takeaway is that the UK is seen as the disruptor both in the EU, and the the US. Anything that follows is inevitably seen a consequence of the UK’s decision. That's the aspect of the US messaging that appears to have rattled Brexiteers the most, judging by the articles going up on the Telegraph and ConHome.


Indeed, it's striking how for the first time ever Brexiteers are seeing the reality as it is: they are not 'liberators' but 'disruptors' and are going to be held accountable for their behaviour, not just by their self-declared adversaries in Europe, but also by their closest ally on which they had set all hopes, the USA.

It sometimes takes your best friend to tell you the truth and the US has just been doing so -both the Democrats as well as the Republicans- and has finally brought the message home it seems, going by the number of angry reactions in the UK.

The bottom line is this: there's not going to be any Brexit dividend EVER if the UK throws NI under a bus.

As has been said from the start: the hardest of Brexits is simply incompatible with full territorial integrity of the UK because of the GFA.
Either the UK accepts an interal border down the Irish Sea (as was forseen in the first version of the WA the EU drafted as well as in the final version BoJo accepted) or it goes for a softer kind of Brexit (as PM May went for in her intermediate version of the WA).
Whatever the choice, the UK can't have its cake and eat it at the same time like BoJo thinks he can by walking away from the commitments he made in the WA and effectively unilaterally pushing back the hard border to the RoI: the US will simply not allow that, that's a given now.

Brexit is a purely British choice of which they will have to bear the consequences alone: break up their country, or climb down.
It's also a sobering lesson in humility for the United Kingdom: Britain is no longer the world power it still sees itself, dictating its terms to others around the globe; it's a weakened and very much isolated nation, now being dictated what it can do at home by others: the Republic of Ireland (through the European Union) and the United States of America.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:18 am

sabenapilot wrote:
but also by their closest ally on which they had set all hopes, the USA.


It is a fallacy that the US is the UK's closest ally. US is much closer to Canada, physical and in policies. The UK was the closest to the EU countries, physical and in policies. The "special relationship" is a myth. ;)

sabenapilot wrote:
The bottom line is this: there's not going to be any Brexit dividend EVERif the UK throws NI under a bus.


fixed it for you.......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
but also by their closest ally on which they had set all hopes, the USA.


It is a fallacy that the US is the UK's closest ally. US is much closer to Canada, physical and in policies. The UK was the closest to the EU countries, physical and in policies. The "special relationship" is a myth. ;)


The special relationship is something the UK has invented as its empire dwindled in order to make itself look more important on the word scene still then it only became.

The idea behind it is that if you simply mirror all US foreign policies, you can make it look as if all consequences of those policies are yours too and thus pretend you're still shaping the world just as before.

It was already shown during the second gulf war to what kind of global humiliation such puppy bahaviour lead for the UK and with the US now warning the UK not to violate the GFA and openly siding with the RoI and the EU on Brexit, it shows there's just no reciprocal benefit at all for the UK from the special relationship: it simply does not exist in the minds of those in Washington. Britain is just another third country on the other side of the Atlantic too.

The special relationship is really just the dumped ex still madly in love with the boyfriend who dumped her, thinking she's still holding on to him because he agreed to sleep with her as sort of a friend-with-benefits from time to time... :spit: .
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:55 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The UK can reasonably ask how the EU will facilitate NI/UK trade, if they will reasonably share the costs, and if the UK/EU special commission will be instructed to make this anomalous border as hassle free as possible. This should be a non-event.


I think the position of the EU is known. As for sharing costs, I doubt the EU would just pay a bill. It would mean it would have a say in how the border needs to be set up and by whom. I doubt the UK would want to involve the EU in such matters as this would go against the UK view of being "sovereign". I don't expect the EU and UK cooperate much in NI, at least initially. That they should cooperate is a different matter.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:13 am

bennett123 wrote:
The body said there had been "no clarity" from the senior minister on how border checks will operate when the transition period ends after December'.

There is not a lot of time to get things in place.


They can't be surprised. Gove is even more vacuous than Johnson and Rees-Mogg combined. None of them have a clue.
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:32 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The UK can reasonably ask how the EU will facilitate NI/UK trade, if they will reasonably share the costs, and if the UK/EU special commission will be instructed to make this anomalous border as hassle free as possible. This should be a non-event.


"Reasonably ask" isn't voting a bill that breaks the deal without even trying to renegotiate it beforehand. Of course renegotiating such a deal mere months after having signed it is already highly problematic, when it would have been much simpler to negotiate it for longer in the first place.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why should they share the cost to the UK.

Ireland will need to cover their costs.


It is a difficult situation. The UK has to separate a small section for the benefit of the EU. It is to protect the common border of the EU. About no-one wants any chance of the GFA to fail. Hell, if they asked the US to give some financial assistance to make the WA agreement work I would expect my legislators to support it. And it should not be all that expensive. A prosperous UK,NI, ROI, and EU is in everyone's interest including Russia and except for Putin.


You're forgetting that it's also for the benefit of the UK. Brexit wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for an obsession with controlling borders. So the UK government implying it wants a totally open border with the isle of Ireland is very hypocritical.

Then of course, there are WTO rules, which are going to rule a lot of UK trade, so better follow them or there will be a lot of trouble coming.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:53 pm

North Ireland has a population of 1.8 million, fairly small. Its economic future may lay is some sort of free port status. It could involve imports, exports, manufacturing, and even financial services. As such it could intermediate for the UK, EU, and the rest of the world. It could be an opportunity more than a problem. There are a number of anomalous places throughout the world. The successful ones not only adapt to the rules they live under, but take advantage of those same rules. The EU and US are enthusiastic for a prosperous NI, why isn't the UK? Sorry I know it is a rhetorical question.

Speaking of anomalous places, what is happening in Gibraltar?
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:36 pm

From the POV of the EU, NI should be able to prosper fine if it's closer to the ROI than currently, and even better as a part of the ROI, so things are going well with that in mind. If you think about it what you're describing would have been easier when the UK was in the EU, for example the UK could have claimed (rightly) that NI's economy is poor, and needs some help.

As for your earlier mention of paying for the border, from my understanding that's on the cards, the EU has been asking to the UK in which buildings should EU customs set up in NI ports, these people would be paid by the EU. The UK responded by saying there was no need to put custom points in place...before now rewriting the WA.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:53 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Why should they share the cost to the UK.

Ireland will need to cover their costs.


It is a difficult situation. The UK has to separate a small section for the benefit of the EU. It is to protect the common border of the EU. About no-one wants any chance of the GFA to fail. Hell, if they asked the US to give some financial assistance to make the WA agreement work I would expect my legislators to support it. And it should not be all that expensive. A prosperous UK,NI, ROI, and EU is in everyone's interest including Russia and except for Putin.


It was the UK's decision to change the situation - the Irish (probably with support from the rest of the EU) will already be forking out to bolster provisions on their side resulting from THE UK'S UNILATERAL DECISION.

How is it justified in the slightest that they be asked to assist the UK as well?
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noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
but also by their closest ally on which they had set all hopes, the USA.


It is a fallacy that the US is the UK's closest ally. US is much closer to Canada, physical and in policies. The UK was the closest to the EU countries, physical and in policies. The "special relationship" is a myth. ;)

sabenapilot wrote:
The bottom line is this: there's not going to be any Brexit dividend EVERif the UK throws NI under a bus.


fixed it for you.......


Europeans like to think that the UK sees European nations as its closest ally, but that is a myth.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:17 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Europeans like to think that the UK sees European nations as its closest ally, but that is a myth.


Didn't talk about who sees what and their perception, :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:51 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Europeans like to think that the UK sees European nations as its closest ally, but that is a myth.


I only disagree insofar as European diplomacy is too transactional to put much stock in emotive perspectives like “closest ally” or “special relationship”. I doubt they view anyone as their closest ally, or claim to be anyone’s “closest” ally.

I do, however, agree that they think the EU are the UK’s biggest trading partner (and the numbers bear that out).

But your broader point does raise the question - who out there views the UK as their closest ally (insofar as anybody does)?

Canada and the US have each other as “closest ally”, as do Australia and NZ.

Who’s left? Not any EU states, of course. So...errrr... Jamaica?

But I can see why Dutchy’s point might rankle Brexiteers. The answer to that should have been Ireland.

Except that, despite Brexiteer fantasies about Irexit (remember that?), Ireland appears to not just view the EU as it’s “closest ally”; it’s somehow managed to raise questions about how “special” the UK’s “special” relationship with the US is.

Might want to think these theories through before posting them.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:01 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Speaking of anomalous places, what is happening in Gibraltar?


Very good question.

The last thing I read was that Gibraltar may have to choose between a) doing nothing and thus ties to the EU are cut, b) applying for enteering the EU Single Market or c) even decide becoming a Schengen country. Spain seems to prefer option c.

https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-gibraltar-schengen-brexit-transition/
https://english.elpais.com/brexit/2020-07-29/gibraltar-seeks-to-keep-eu-ties-after-brexit-transition-ends.html
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:00 pm

ELPistolero

Regrettably, the relationship between the UK and Ireland has not always been a happy one.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:17 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Europeans like to think that the UK sees European nations as its closest ally, but that is a myth.


I only disagree insofar as European diplomacy is too transactional to put much stock in emotive perspectives like “closest ally” or “special relationship”. I doubt they view anyone as their closest ally, or claim to be anyone’s “closest” ally.

I do, however, agree that they think the EU are the UK’s biggest trading partner (and the numbers bear that out).

But your broader point does raise the question - who out there views the UK as their closest ally (insofar as anybody does)?

Canada and the US have each other as “closest ally”, as do Australia and NZ.

Who’s left? Not any EU states, of course. So...errrr... Jamaica?

But I can see why Dutchy’s point might rankle Brexiteers. The answer to that should have been Ireland.

Except that, despite Brexiteer fantasies about Irexit (remember that?), Ireland appears to not just view the EU as it’s “closest ally”; it’s somehow managed to raise questions about how “special” the UK’s “special” relationship with the US is.

Might want to think these theories through before posting them.


Whether the USA looks at Canada as their closest ally is beside the point.

Culturally we are closer to the USA than Europe. We share the same language. European nations are all individual. Culturally Portugal and Estonia or Romania could not be further apart.

We’ve gone to aid of American in recent wars. Don’t think we’d have done that for France or Slovakia would we.

Ask any Brit who they think their closest ally is, and you’ll have your answer.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:19 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Whether the USA looks at Canada as their closest ally is beside the point.


That’s rather the point, isn’t it? Ask any American who they think is their closest ally, and you know it’s going to be their northern neighbour, not the UK. The economies, industries, cultures and militaries are too intertwined.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Culturally we are closer to the USA than Europe. We share the same language. European nations are all individual. Culturally Portugal and Estonia or Romania could not be further apart.


Which part of the US? The northeast? The Midwest? The south? The east coast? The west coast?

Some Brexiteers obsession with homogeneity seems to blind them to the fact that cultural diversity is a reality of any large federation and confederation. California, Mississippi and Hawaii have entirely different cultures, as do Quebec and Alberta.

In any event you’ll find that the UK has more in common with European nations on “cultural issues”, such as abortion, religion, economics, healthcare, guns etc than it does with the US Midwest and Deep South.

noviorbis77 wrote:
We’ve gone to aid of American in recent wars.


Is this an attempt at humour? The US can achieve whatever it wants without the UK’s “aid”. If others want to bandwagon to get credit, they let them, but let’s be real - the UK’s “aid” hasn’t been critical to US military success. If anything, the UK is a net recipient of military aid, given the US (and Canada’s) critical contributions during WWII. Nothing the UK has done since comes close to that.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Don’t think we’d have done that for France or Slovakia would we.


Not to be pedantic or anything, but the UK got into the Second World War because of Poland (not too far from Slovakia). Have they stopped teaching history in the UK?

Oh, and the North Atlantic Treaty (think NATO), to which the UK is a signatory, has a collective defence clause that covers both France and Slovakia (unless, of course, this is one of those treaties that Brexiteers intend to breach in a “limited and specific” way going forward lol)

This is fairly basic stuff. Are you really not aware of any of this?

noviorbis77 wrote:
Ask any Brit who they think their closest ally is, and you’ll have your answer.


Okay. Ask any Canadian, Australian or NZ and, well, the UK isn’t going to be the “closest” for any of them.

Begs the question: what’s your point? That Brits (at least of the Brexiteer variety) hold other countries in higher esteem than those countries hold them in? Odd thing to brag about, to be honest. Comes across as more needy than flattering.

But epic post! Has to be one of the more hilarious counterproductive forays by Brexiteers on here.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:21 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Whether the USA looks at Canada as their closest ally is beside the point.


That’s rather the point, isn’t it? Ask any American who they think is their closest ally, and you know it’s going to be their northern neighbour, not the UK. The economies, industries, cultures and militaries are too intertwined.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Culturally we are closer to the USA than Europe. We share the same language. European nations are all individual. Culturally Portugal and Estonia or Romania could not be further apart.


Which part of the US? The northeast? The Midwest? The south? The east coast? The west coast?

Some Brexiteers obsession with homogeneity seems to blind them to the fact that cultural diversity is a reality of any large federation and confederation. California, Mississippi and Hawaii have entirely different cultures, as do Quebec and Alberta.

In any event you’ll find that the UK has more in common with European nations on “cultural issues”, such as abortion, religion, economics, healthcare, guns etc than it does with the US Midwest and Deep South.

noviorbis77 wrote:
We’ve gone to aid of American in recent wars.


Is this an attempt at humour? The US can achieve whatever it wants without the UK’s “aid”. If others want to bandwagon to get credit, they let them, but let’s be real - the UK’s “aid” hasn’t been critical to US military success. If anything, the UK is a net recipient of military aid, given the US (and Canada’s) critical contributions during WWII. Nothing the UK has done since comes close to that.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Don’t think we’d have done that for France or Slovakia would we.


Not to be pedantic or anything, but the UK got into the Second World War because of Poland (not too far from Slovakia). Have they stopped teaching history in the UK?

Oh, and the North Atlantic Treaty (think NATO), to which the UK is a signatory, has a collective defence clause that covers both France and Slovakia (unless, of course, this is one of those treaties that Brexiteers intend to breach in a “limited and specific” way going forward lol)

This is fairly basic stuff. Are you really not aware of any of this?

noviorbis77 wrote:
Ask any Brit who they think their closest ally is, and you’ll have your answer.


Okay. Ask any Canadian, Australian or NZ and, well, the UK isn’t going to be the “closest” for any of them.

Begs the question: what’s your point? That Brits (at least of the Brexiteer variety) hold other countries in higher esteem than those countries hold them in? Odd thing to brag about, to be honest. Comes across as more needy than flattering.

But epic post! Has to be one of the more hilarious counterproductive forays by Brexiteers on here.


My post clearly relates to how the Brits look at our American cousins. Not vice versa. If they think of Canada as their closest allies, good luck to them.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:02 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
My post clearly relates to how the Brits look at our American cousins. Not vice versa. If they think of Canada as their closest allies, good luck to them.


just define anything and everything very narrowly and you might be right in your own little narative. Disgarding consequences or context helps, of course.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
marcelh
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:24 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Europeans like to think that the UK sees European nations as its closest ally, but that is a myth.
[/quote]
It’s indeed a myth, and especially the English aren’t our friends. History has made clear that England doesn’t like a strong unified continent, reason why the UK has become a member. They also voted for expansion of the EU eastwards. More members means more discussions about everything and a less powerful continent. IMHO no effort should be made by the EU to let the UK abuse the open border between NI and ROI.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:23 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

My post clearly relates to how the Brits look at our American cousins. Not vice versa. If they think of Canada as their closest allies, good luck to them.


I’m sure what you say is true for some/most Brexiteer “Brits”.

However, given that it’s rooted in a lack of knowledge of history, NATO and god knows what else, I doubt your post reflects what “Brits” writ large, think.

There are, after all, simply too many well-educated Brits out there. The number 48 comes to mind.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:15 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

My post clearly relates to how the Brits look at our American cousins. Not vice versa. If they think of Canada as their closest allies, good luck to them.


I’m sure what you say is true for some/most Brexiteer “Brits”.

However, given that it’s rooted in a lack of knowledge of history, NATO and god knows what else, I doubt your post reflects what “Brits” writ large, think.

There are, after all, simply too many well-educated Brits out there. The number 48 comes to mind.


Whatever you say. I am sure someone who lives in Canada knows far more about British Citizens that someone who lives here.

I mean with all that is going on in the world, being offended when a British Citizen explains that British Citizens look more across the Atlantic than across the English Channel, says a lot.
 
Nick614
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:32 pm

Aesma wrote:
Also, while Trump has a reasonable chance of winning the election, due to the electoral college being so unfair, the House is almost certain to stay Blue, and there is no trade deal without the House voting for it.


The electoral college is the only reason there is a United States. The federal government is supposed to represent the interests of all states not just the 5 most populous states.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:39 pm

Once again, you speak for yourself and your echo chamber. The average brit couldn't give a flying fig who the closest ally was.
France is our closest neighbour and ally, followed by Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway and Spain. The US is several more places down the list.
We're European. It's time you got over it, especially as you can hold a European passport, unlike the fellow countrymen whom you nonchalantly threw under a bus for a fantastical, nationalistic, xenophobic and unicorn filled pipedream.

Brexit is turning out precisely as predicted. A rotten shambles with no resemblance whatsoever to any claims made by the brexitards. We had what you numpties wanted, you threw it away based on the words of Farage and Johnson...utter plonkers!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:25 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Whatever you say. I am sure someone who lives in Canada knows far more about British Citizens that someone who lives here.

I mean with all that is going on in the world, being offended when a British Citizen explains that British Citizens look more across the Atlantic than across the English Channel, says a lot.


“Offended”? Haha, no. Just amused by Brexiteer’s brilliant knack for revealing the falsehoods in their own claims - and revealing ignorance of basic facts, in the process.

Who would’ve thought a Brit wouldn’t know the trigger for the UK to enter WWII, or about the rules and membership of NATO? All in the service of making an unsubstantiated claim to mock Europeans.

It’s often said that remainers make derisory claims about Brexiteers. That may well be true. What’s unclear is why Brexiteers insist on substantiating remainer claims with bizarre claims. This is right up there with Irexit.

It does seem to me that media consumption notwithstanding, the UK has a greater cultural affinity with the EU, especially on sociocultural issues (healthcare, taxation, education, crime, policing etc) than ot does with the US. Feel free to demonstrate why I’m incorrect. Good luck.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:06 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Whatever you say. I am sure someone who lives in Canada knows far more about British Citizens that someone who lives here.

I mean with all that is going on in the world, being offended when a British Citizen explains that British Citizens look more across the Atlantic than across the English Channel, says a lot.



It does seem to me that media consumption notwithstanding, the UK has a greater cultural affinity with the EU, especially on sociocultural issues (healthcare, taxation, education, crime, policing etc) than ot does with the US. Feel free to demonstrate why I’m incorrect. Good luck.


I am too in awe that someone living in Canada knows more about life in the UK than a British Citizen.

But you can make whatever assumptions you want that taxation and universal healthcare equates to cultural alignment LOL.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:20 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

I am too in awe that someone living in Canada knows more about life in the UK than a British Citizen.

But you can make whatever assumptions you want that taxation and universal healthcare equates to cultural alignment LOL.


Taxes, healthcare, food standards, policing - those are all quality of life /“way of life” indicators of “culture”, are they not? Some of those issues are affecting UK trade deals, as I recall.

Or does cultural alignment = watching Hollywood/US TV?

In any case, which given that US “culture” is not homogenous, which US culture are you claiming affinity with? East coast? West coast? Deep South? Some made up Brexiteer version?

PS - I’ve lived and/or worked in all three countries. Gives me a slightly different perspective to those who ... errr... see the world only as “natives” and “foreigners”.
 
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:59 pm

Hollywood and US TV series are extremely popular here in France, Italy, and I'm sure the rest of Europe. The US has been very successful at exporting that, I doubt the UK is very different from other European countries in its consumption of Hollywood. Same for music.
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noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:49 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Once again, you speak for yourself and your echo chamber. The average brit couldn't give a flying fig who the closest ally was.
France is our closest neighbour and ally, followed by Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway and Spain. The US is several more places down the list.
We're European. It's time you got over it, especially as you can hold a European passport, unlike the fellow countrymen whom you nonchalantly threw under a bus for a fantastical, nationalistic, xenophobic and unicorn filled pipedream.

Brexit is turning out precisely as predicted. A rotten shambles with no resemblance whatsoever to any claims made by the brexitards. We had what you numpties wanted, you threw it away based on the words of Farage and Johnson...utter plonkers!


I don’t consider myself European. I am a national of a country that is in the continent of Europe. Most British people do not consider themselves as European.

A European passport? Think again mate. We’ve left. That ship has sailed :)

Belgium as our closest ally? Holland? Never heard so much nonsense.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ard-allies
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19180
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:19 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
I mean with all that is going on in the world, being offended when a British Citizen explains that British Citizens look more across the Atlantic than across the English Channel, says a lot.


I think you're speaking for yourself. Feel free to provide supporting evidence to backup your claims.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Most British people do not consider themselves as European.


And again.

ChrisKen wrote:
Once again, you speak for yourself and your echo chamber.


This times 1,000. It's not just me then? :rotfl:

ChrisKen wrote:
Brexit is turning out precisely as predicted. A rotten shambles with no resemblance whatsoever to any claims made by the brexitards. We had what you numpties wanted, you threw it away based on the words of Farage and Johnson...utter plonkers!


Who'd have imagined that Gove, Johnson and Rees-Mogg wouldn't have a clue? As for Cummings... :banghead:
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:22 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Once again, you speak for yourself and your echo chamber. The average brit couldn't give a flying fig who the closest ally was.
France is our closest neighbour and ally, followed by Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway and Spain. The US is several more places down the list.
We're European. It's time you got over it, especially as you can hold a European passport, unlike the fellow countrymen whom you nonchalantly threw under a bus for a fantastical, nationalistic, xenophobic and unicorn filled pipedream.

Brexit is turning out precisely as predicted. A rotten shambles with no resemblance whatsoever to any claims made by the brexitards. We had what you numpties wanted, you threw it away based on the words of Farage and Johnson...utter plonkers!


I don’t consider myself European. I am a national of a country that is in the continent of Europe. Most British people do not consider themselves as European.

A European passport? Think again mate. We’ve left. That ship has sailed :)

Belgium as our closest ally? Holland? Never heard so much nonsense.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ard-allies


The first line of the article you’ve linked to literally says:

“An overwhelming majority see America, Germany and France as important UK allies“

As to Identities and the people you call “British”, worth pointing out that:

- 13% consider themselves to be British (not English/Scot whatever)

- 12% of the “British” consider their British identity to be more important than their nation’s identity (Scottish, Welsh, English);

- 20 % consider themselves to be equally British and English/Welsh/Scot

- 31% of the “British” do not consider themselves British at all;

- 12% put their local identity above their British identity.

Evidently a third of the “British” don’t consider themselves “British” and the another 12% are ambivalent about it.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/surv ... 11/ac5f8/3

Not to put too fine a point on it, but identity is a complex issue. Which then begs the question: which group “British” do you claim to speak for?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:27 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
A European passport? Think again mate. We’ve left. That ship has sailed


No, my red passport still says European Union on it and I still have FOM until the end of the year.

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ard-allies


Which inconveniently shows Germany and France well ahead of anyone else and running USA close. Just wait until Trump or Biden throws the UK under the bus in trade negotiations and our "special relationship" is exposed for what it really is - the UK being America's lapdog. What did you say Blair, woof woof? :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:29 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but identity is a complex issue. Which then begs the question: which group “British” do you claim to speak for?


He's only ever spoken for himself with his 'get out of jail free' card. :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:41 pm

scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
A European passport? Think again mate. We’ve left. That ship has sailed


No, my red passport still says European Union on it and I still have FOM until the end of the year.

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ard-allies


Which inconveniently shows Germany and France well ahead of anyone else and running USA close. Just wait until Trump or Biden throws the UK under the bus in trade negotiations and our "special relationship" is exposed for what it really is - the UK being America's lapdog. What did you say Blair, woof woof? :scratchchin:


Do you not qualify under Irish parent or grandparent?

That is how I got my Irish passport.

You still will have freedom of movement though. You just wont be able to live and work within the EU.

Have you lived and worked within an other EU nation before?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:43 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Once again, you speak for yourself and your echo chamber. The average brit couldn't give a flying fig who the closest ally was.
France is our closest neighbour and ally, followed by Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway and Spain. The US is several more places down the list.
We're European. It's time you got over it, especially as you can hold a European passport, unlike the fellow countrymen whom you nonchalantly threw under a bus for a fantastical, nationalistic, xenophobic and unicorn filled pipedream.

Brexit is turning out precisely as predicted. A rotten shambles with no resemblance whatsoever to any claims made by the brexitards. We had what you numpties wanted, you threw it away based on the words of Farage and Johnson...utter plonkers!


I don’t consider myself European. I am a national of a country that is in the continent of Europe. Most British people do not consider themselves as European.

A European passport? Think again mate. We’ve left. That ship has sailed :)

Belgium as our closest ally? Holland? Never heard so much nonsense.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ard-allies


The first line of the article you’ve linked to literally says:

“An overwhelming majority see America, Germany and France as important UK allies“

As to Identities and the people you call “British”, worth pointing out that:

- 13% consider themselves to be British (not English/Scot whatever)

- 12% of the “British” consider their British identity to be more important than their nation’s identity (Scottish, Welsh, English);

- 20 % consider themselves to be equally British and English/Welsh/Scot

- 31% of the “British” do not consider themselves British at all;

- 12% put their local identity above their British identity.

Evidently a third of the “British” don’t consider themselves “British” and the another 12% are ambivalent about it.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/surv ... 11/ac5f8/3

Not to put too fine a point on it, but identity is a complex issue. Which then begs the question: which group “British” do you claim to speak for?


Lots of nice reading for you to learn about life in the UK.

I speak as English. The Scots, Irish and Welsh can think of themselves as whatever they want.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/media-centr ... in-the-eu/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... mos-survey

https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/pu ... _40_en.pdf

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/britons-weak-sens ... or-brexit/
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:18 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Do you not qualify under Irish parent or grandparent?

That is how I got my Irish passport.


No, I'm as English as English can be. Unless you can just say "My Grandmother is Irish" and get an EU passport? I don't have the safety net that you do, so I'm stuck with whatever lunacy the people you voted for provide, while you can run away and laugh. Thanks a bunch.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:34 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

I don’t consider myself European. I am a national of a country that is in the continent of Europe. Most British people do not consider themselves as European.

A European passport? Think again mate. We’ve left. That ship has sailed :)

Belgium as our closest ally? Holland? Never heard so much nonsense.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ard-allies


The first line of the article you’ve linked to literally says:

“An overwhelming majority see America, Germany and France as important UK allies“

As to Identities and the people you call “British”, worth pointing out that:

- 13% consider themselves to be British (not English/Scot whatever)

- 12% of the “British” consider their British identity to be more important than their nation’s identity (Scottish, Welsh, English);

- 20 % consider themselves to be equally British and English/Welsh/Scot

- 31% of the “British” do not consider themselves British at all;

- 12% put their local identity above their British identity.

Evidently a third of the “British” don’t consider themselves “British” and the another 12% are ambivalent about it.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/surv ... 11/ac5f8/3

Not to put too fine a point on it, but identity is a complex issue. Which then begs the question: which group “British” do you claim to speak for?


Lots of nice reading for you to learn about life in the UK.

I speak as English. The Scots, Irish and Welsh can think of themselves as whatever they want.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/media-centr ... in-the-eu/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... mos-survey

https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/pu ... _40_en.pdf

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/britons-weak-sens ... or-brexit/


Right. So in one post you’re British. In another you’re English. And in a third one you’re Irish (with identity documents to prove it).

So... errr ... what are you?

Here, I’ll solve it for you: identity isn’t binary; it is multilayered and concurrent, with individuals adopting identities based on the circumstances they face.

As the WA has shown us, Brexiteers would do well to actually understand what words mean before endorsing them. Otherwise everything just turns into a pudding of contradictions.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:38 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

The first line of the article you’ve linked to literally says:

“An overwhelming majority see America, Germany and France as important UK allies“

As to Identities and the people you call “British”, worth pointing out that:

- 13% consider themselves to be British (not English/Scot whatever)

- 12% of the “British” consider their British identity to be more important than their nation’s identity (Scottish, Welsh, English);

- 20 % consider themselves to be equally British and English/Welsh/Scot

- 31% of the “British” do not consider themselves British at all;

- 12% put their local identity above their British identity.

Evidently a third of the “British” don’t consider themselves “British” and the another 12% are ambivalent about it.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/surv ... 11/ac5f8/3

Not to put too fine a point on it, but identity is a complex issue. Which then begs the question: which group “British” do you claim to speak for?


Lots of nice reading for you to learn about life in the UK.

I speak as English. The Scots, Irish and Welsh can think of themselves as whatever they want.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/media-centr ... in-the-eu/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... mos-survey

https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/pu ... _40_en.pdf

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/britons-weak-sens ... or-brexit/


Right. So in one post you’re British. In another you’re English. And in a third one you’re Irish (with identity documents to prove it).

So... errr ... what are you?

Here, I’ll solve it for you: identity isn’t binary; it is multilayered and concurrent, with individuals adopting identities based on the circumstances they face.

As the WA has shown us, Brexiteers would do well to actually understand what words mean before endorsing them. Otherwise everything just turns into a pudding of contradictions.


Wow. You are an expert on how I should identify myself now. Amazing. You seem to know everything.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:17 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Wow. You are an expert on how I should identify myself now. Amazing. You seem to know everything.


Not really, no. It’s just not clear what you identify as.

As to knowing “everything”, it does seem as though I have a better grasp on the concepts being discussed than most of the Brexiteers on here, but this, admittedly, amounts to little more than damning me with faint praise.

Take this nonsensical gem:

noviorbis77 wrote:

You still will have freedom of movement though. You just wont be able to live and work within the EU.


It is incorrect.

Once the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens entry into the EU will not be based upon right (“freedom of movement” confers that right in all but very exceptional circumstances), but will be at the discretion of the EU.

There will be no freedom to enter the EU, only freedom to seek permission from the EU to enter the EU, which can be denied on any grounds, as UK citizens turned back in the US, Canada and other places well know.

This Is pretty basic stuff. Not sure how you got it wrong, to be honest.

Like I said, if I come across as knowing “everything” it is merely because of who I am being compared to. One eyed king in the land of the blind etc.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:37 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Wow. You are an expert on how I should identify myself now. Amazing. You seem to know everything.


Not really, no. It’s just not clear what you identify as.

As to knowing “everything”, it does seem as though I have a better grasp on the concepts being discussed than most of the Brexiteers on here, but this, admittedly, amounts to little more than damning me with faint praise.

Take this nonsensical gem:

noviorbis77 wrote:

You still will have freedom of movement though. You just wont be able to live and work within the EU.


It is incorrect.

Once the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens entry into the EU will not be based upon right (“freedom of movement” confers that right in all but very exceptional circumstances), but will be at the discretion of the EU.

There will be no freedom to enter the EU, only freedom to seek permission from the EU to enter the EU, which can be denied on any grounds, as UK citizens turned back in the US, Canada and other places well know.

This Is pretty basic stuff. Not sure how you got it wrong, to be honest.

Like I said, if I come across as knowing “everything” it is merely because of who I am being compared to. One eyed king in the land of the blind etc.


Freedom in the sense that they can travel around Europe without needing a visa.

Yes they must satisfy the Border Official that they are a genuine visitor. The same will apply to EU citizens entering the UK.

We do refuse entry to EU citizens as it stands in some circumstances now. We’ll just widen that in the future.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:29 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Freedom in the sense that they can travel around Europe without needing a visa.

Yes they must satisfy the Border Official that they are a genuine visitor. The same will apply to EU citizens entering the UK.

We do refuse entry to EU citizens as it stands in some circumstances now. We’ll just widen that in the future.


Brexit limited the freedom for British citizens, not give them more freedom. So yes, you are right in that aspect. This is not the case for someone also holding an EU passport, dual citizenship as most of the Brexiteers on this forum do.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:35 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

Freedom in the sense that they can travel around Europe without needing a visa.

Yes they must satisfy the Border Official that they are a genuine visitor. The same will apply to EU citizens entering the UK.

We do refuse entry to EU citizens as it stands in some circumstances now. We’ll just widen that in the future.


Indeed. Looks like (yet another) case of not understanding the terms being used.

Visa free / Visa waiver / visa on arrival =/= freedom of movement.

Freedom of movement is a right that, like other freedoms/rights, can only be curtailed under very exceptional circumstances (public safety, public health etc).

This is the same as within many countries - provinces in Canada can ban domestic non-residents from entering during COVID - so the EU rules aren’t unique.

In the future, scribml will have to ask for permission to enter. Just as he would have to seek permission from a US or Canadian border agent to enter today.

If you’re claiming the UK has freedom of movement with the US or Canada today because UK citizens don’t require visas, that is objectively incorrect.

Losing freedom of movement is the equivalent of losing a right. Visa free travel is not the equivalent of having a right.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:02 am

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Freedom in the sense that they can travel around Europe without needing a visa.

Yes they must satisfy the Border Official that they are a genuine visitor. The same will apply to EU citizens entering the UK.

We do refuse entry to EU citizens as it stands in some circumstances now. We’ll just widen that in the future.


Indeed. Looks like (yet another) case of not understanding the terms being used.

Visa free / Visa waiver / visa on arrival =/= freedom of movement.

Freedom of movement is a right that, like other freedoms/rights, can only be curtailed under very exceptional circumstances (public safety, public health etc).

This is the same as within many countries - provinces in Canada can ban domestic non-residents from entering during COVID - so the EU rules aren’t unique.

In the future, scribml will have to ask for permission to enter. Just as he would have to seek permission from a US or Canadian border agent to enter today.

If you’re claiming the UK has freedom of movement with the US or Canada today because UK citizens don’t require visas, that is objectively incorrect.

Losing freedom of movement is the equivalent of losing a right. Visa free travel is not the equivalent of having a right.


Yes I know that. My use of freedom of movement term was clumsy. A UK citizen can freely travel across the EU if they satisfy individual nation states that they are genuine visitors.

Where have I said a UK citizen has freedom of movement in Canada and the US?
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:55 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Europeans like to think that the UK sees European nations as its closest ally, but that is a myth.


1) no-one seems to be saying that - you're the first person I can recall (if anything, Europeans complain that the UK *DOESN'T* consider the rest of Europe as an ally!)
2) in practical terms (trade, co-operation, etc.) the UK's closest allies *ARE* the EU nations - so what point are you trying to make?
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:00 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Ask any Brit who they think their closest ally is, and you’ll have your answer.


I am a Brit - your point thus disproven.

(Also, I can't think of anyone I know who would specify the US as "the closest ally"...)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit Part IX: Final rush to No Deal

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:26 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54242235

More trouble in Westminster.

Serious question, 'Why would any country take the word of this government which signed an agreement and now wants a unilateral opt out'.

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