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seb146
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:17 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Trump’s motives may not be perfectly pure, but a liberal shouldn’t be arguing about a senior citizen avoiding jail time for a nonviolent offense. It’s what liberals advocate, after all. There are much better things to clutch pearls over.

Do people here really believe that the best punishment for a senior citizen convicted of a nonviolent offense is multi-year incarceration? Really?


One guy said it one time so that is all the proof you need that "liberals" believe it? okay.... whatever....

Stone is a co-conspirator. He conspired with the occupant of the White House. All you have to go on is "but... but... but... Biden said one thing one time so why are 'liberals' so upset?"
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:35 pm

So what, every president commutes/pardons convicts who are one their side. Go look at Clinton’s and Obama’s record. Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, a bought and paid favor, his HUD Secretary. Obama pardoned the FALN leader who even Clinton refused to pardon.

Get over it, it’s just politics like drinking latte or shooting a gun. The US now has two tribes and the Twain shall never meet again.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:53 pm

The irony is that if Stone got a fair sentence of probation it wouldn’t have been commuted and he would have had at least some consequence.
 
LMP737
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:56 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So what, every president commutes/pardons convicts who are one their side. Go look at Clinton’s and Obama’s record. Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, a bought and paid favor, his HUD Secretary. Obama pardoned the FALN leader who even Clinton refused to pardon.

Get over it, it’s just politics like drinking latte or shooting a gun. The US now has two tribes and the Twain shall never meet again.


Wow, what an incredibly disingenuous/dishonest thing for you to say. We all know that presidents have the right to pardon people as they see fit. However how many presidents pardon people who got in trouble for directly helping them?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Newark727
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So what, every president commutes/pardons convicts who are one their side. Go look at Clinton’s and Obama’s record. Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, a bought and paid favor, his HUD Secretary. Obama pardoned the FALN leader who even Clinton refused to pardon.

Get over it, it’s just politics like drinking latte or shooting a gun. The US now has two tribes and the Twain shall never meet again.


There's a subtle danger in looking at things this way. You're not only justifying the abuses of power from one side now, but both. Suppose Biden gets elected - do you really want him citing the Trump administration's precedents on executive power as he goes about his business?

Example: Suppose a hypothetical President Biden were to pardon his son for an illegal business venture in Ukraine. You'd be screaming bloody murder - and rightly so. But by the argument you're presenting here, Trump did something fairly similar, so who cares?
 
NIKV69
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:37 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Stone’s case is extremely similar to Obama’s pardon of Retired Marine Gen. James E. Cartwright who pleaded guilty in late 2016 to lying to the FBI about his discussions with reporters about Iran’s nuclear program, specifically whether he had leaked classified information about a joint U.S.-Israel operation against it.

I don’t recall Democrats being outraged over that pardon. But now they want a senior citizen jailed for several years. Fortunately justice has been done.


I bet it wasn't a predawn raid with CNN cameras rolling either.
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LMP737
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:42 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Stone’s case is extremely similar to Obama’s pardon of Retired Marine Gen. James E. Cartwright who pleaded guilty in late 2016 to lying to the FBI about his discussions with reporters about Iran’s nuclear program, specifically whether he had leaked classified information about a joint U.S.-Israel operation against it.

I don’t recall Democrats being outraged over that pardon. But now they want a senior citizen jailed for several years. Fortunately justice has been done.


Yet another incredibly disingenuous statement. As I stated in another post did Obama someone who had a did illegal acts in an effort to get him elected? Which begs the question, if he had would you have same attitude. I'm going to guess no.

What this pardon show is that certain people are above the law in this country. Try and spin it all you want, it's true.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:07 am

VTKillarney wrote:
The irony is that if Stone got a fair sentence of probation it wouldn’t have been commuted and he would have had at least some consequence.


The irony is that the ‘law and order’ crowd is here making excuses for a dude who has clearly harmed the nation with his corruption. A respected conservative writer’s take on Stone’s corruption:

Stone’s conviction for lying under oath was a result of his connection with WikiLeaks—an organization that uncovers and publishes classified information. In the fall of 2016, Stone sent a series of Twitter messages revealing his insider knowledge of the group’s recent discoveries...

...Transcripts recently made public by the FBI reveal that Stone’s contact with WikiLeaks persisted into 2017. Julian Assange and Stone exchanged several Twitter direct messages at the outset of Mueller’s investigation. In one, Stone writes to Assange, “If the US government moves on you I will bring down the entire house of cards.” Stone then testified before the House Intelligence Committee in 2019 that he did not have any direct contact with the WikiLeaks founder—perjuring himself.

After being denied a retrial and unsuccessfully requesting an appellate court delay his 40-month prison sentence, Stone’s last hope was an intervention by the president.


https://twitter.com/stephenfhayes/statu ... 37857?s=21

https://thedispatch.com/p/remembering-t ... oger-stone
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:19 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So what, every president commutes/pardons convicts who are one their side. Go look at Clinton’s and Obama’s record. Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, a bought and paid favor, his HUD Secretary. Obama pardoned the FALN leader who even Clinton refused to pardon.

Get over it, it’s just politics like drinking latte or shooting a gun. The US now has two tribes and the Twain shall never meet again.


This goes way beyond any of that - Stone is just one of several people who were cozying up to interests harmful to the US for purposes still unknown - maybe the election, maybe shielding 45’s overseas debt from coming to light, whatever the case may be. Apologism for this administration and it’s antics are not just ‘politics’ - it’s failed patriotism. No POTUS has put their own personal interests above the office on this scale. Anyone who defends this can be assumed to be as much a fan of destabilization as the foreign elements cheering this all on.

Here is Reagan speechwriter Mona Charen, driving the point home after some 45’ers have shrieked ‘but Clinton did same!’ all day:

1) Roger Clinton had already served time in prison. The pardon only expunged the record.
2) Clinton was sleazy. We knew that.
3) Stone's pardon undermines free and fair elections; therefore much worse than Clinton's pardon of his brother.


https://twitter.com/monachareneppc/stat ... 12834?s=21
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kent350787
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:46 am

VTKillarney wrote:
The irony is that if Stone got a fair sentence of probation it wouldn’t have been commuted and he would have had at least some consequence.

The sentencing judge’s reasoning was quite clear as to why the sentencing was as it was, with Stone’s lack of contrition being only one element.

It as if 45 is daring his opponents “I’m being crooked in full public view, what are you going to do about about it?”

Short of another impeachment, the judgement may need to wait until November.
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
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seb146
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:37 am

VTKillarney wrote:
The irony is that if Stone got a fair sentence of probation it wouldn’t have been commuted and he would have had at least some consequence.


No. The irony is that Stone has already been tried and sentenced by a jury of his peers.

And that judgement and sentence were both commuted. As if he had never committed the crimes.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:42 am

VTKillarney wrote:
Joe Biden, the current pole bearer for the Democrats, said it well at the the third Democratic presidential debate in Houston: “Nobody should be in jail for a nonviolent crime.”

So Trump just did what Biden insisted was the right thing to do.


That makes sense, if you haven’t hurt anyone and aren’t violent what is the point in being incarcerated? It’s just another body for the privatised prison service to make money off.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:05 am

NIKV69 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Stone’s case is extremely similar to Obama’s pardon of Retired Marine Gen. James E. Cartwright who pleaded guilty in late 2016 to lying to the FBI about his discussions with reporters about Iran’s nuclear program, specifically whether he had leaked classified information about a joint U.S.-Israel operation against it.

I don’t recall Democrats being outraged over that pardon. But now they want a senior citizen jailed for several years. Fortunately justice has been done.


I bet it wasn't a predawn raid with CNN cameras rolling either.

It should have been a no knock warrant
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bennett123
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:11 am

Kiwirob

So should Bernie Madoff be pardoned as well?.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:21 am

Kiwirob wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Joe Biden, the current pole bearer for the Democrats, said it well at the the third Democratic presidential debate in Houston: “Nobody should be in jail for a nonviolent crime.”

So Trump just did what Biden insisted was the right thing to do.


That makes sense, if you haven’t hurt anyone and aren’t violent what is the point in being incarcerated? It’s just another body for the privatised prison service to make money off.


deflect deflect deflect, “Stone was found guilty of obstruction of a congressional investigation, five counts of making false statements to Congress, and tampering with a witness.”

All of the charges stemmed from Stone’s attempts to thwart the House intelligence committee’s investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

The bottom line, “Witnesses do not get to decide for themselves whether Congress is entitled to the facts. Nobody is above the law. Including the president, that's what the supreme court ruled, just last week. As long as our Constitution continues to have this clause, that allows a president to act like a king. it's hypocritical to call ourselves a democracy.
Last edited by DLFREEBIRD on Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:22 am

Kiwirob wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Joe Biden, the current pole bearer for the Democrats, said it well at the the third Democratic presidential debate in Houston: “Nobody should be in jail for a nonviolent crime.”

So Trump just did what Biden insisted was the right thing to do.


That makes sense, if you haven’t hurt anyone and aren’t violent what is the point in being incarcerated? It’s just another body for the privatised prison service to make money off.


Very few federal inmates are in private prisons, and the US has been drawing down federal contracts with private prisons for several years. States are a whole different story.
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VTKillarney
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:11 am

Nobody is saying that Stone should not be punished. It’s just that a multi-year sentence of incarceration for lying is way out of whack. No other properly civilized country would hand down a sentence like that.

We all know it. But politics won’t allow many to admit it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:29 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Nobody is saying that Stone should not be punished. It’s just that a multi-year sentence of incarceration for lying is way out of whack. No other properly civilized country would hand down a sentence like that.

We all know it. But politics won’t allow many to admit it.


I guess the Reaganite's point about damage done to the country was lost on you. It's not a lie about mere tax obligations or fudged info on a document. They are lies to hide involvement with individuals and entities who intend harm and/or destabilization of the republic.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
diverted
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Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:06 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Any a-political person who cares about criminal justice reform would be opposed to locking up a senior citizen for several years because they lied to a cop. Fortunately justice was done to rectify the disproportionate sentence.


Aka "Hey I know I'm in the wrong and I have no good argument so here's a straw man!"

VTKillarney wrote:
Nobody is saying that Stone should not be punished. It’s just that a multi-year sentence of incarceration for lying is way out of whack. No other properly civilized country would hand down a sentence like that.

We all know it. But politics won’t allow many to admit it.

Well, actually the oompa loompa said pretty much exactly that by commuting his sentence. The president of law and order my ass, unless he's the president making a mockery of law and order


But hey, you want to smoke a bit of pot, or sell a bit to you friends, you're f*cked. Actively lying in an investigation regarding election tampering seems a bit bigger than that...

Oklahoma mother of four Patricia Spottedcrow learned firsthand how a small-time pot bust can completely derail an offender’s life. A $31 pot sale got her a stunning 12-year prison sentence. In the two years she has been incarcerated, she has seen her children only twice. What’s more, her good behavior behind bars, including completing her GED and other self-improvement programs, has not reduced the confusing back-and-forth from the Pardon and Parole Board.A judge recently reduced Spottedcrow’s sentence to eight years, because “she needs more time to prepare and mature.


As everything with Trump supporters, it's not about America anymore. It's about winning and "owning the libs," which is why Republicans are finally turning on him and Moscow Mitch. Who cares about committing treason as long as you're winning right? Can't wait to revisit this in November.
 
Kiwirob
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: 45 commutes Stone sentence

Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:17 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Kiwirob

So should Bernie Madoff be pardoned as well?.


Did he kill anyone? At most 5 years, anything more is just spiteful.

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