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c933103
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Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:40 am

According to Wikipedia,
Fascism is a form of far-right,
authoritarian ultranationalism
characterized by dictatorial power,
forcible suppression of opposition,
as well as strong regimentation of society
and of the economy
which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.


Why anti-fascists are now focusing on individual groups who want to enhance nationalism, instead of governments around the world that actually enforce authorotarian ultranationalism with dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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stl07
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:57 am

I'm assuming because overtly intense nationalism is a stepping stone to Fascism. When people are so nationalistic that they start to believe that anyone who criticizes the government is unpatriotic (And we are even seeing this in places we wouldn't expect such as the US), it gives the government extreme power and one small step or rouge leader (Hi Putin!) can lead the country to an authoritarian place. It is one thing to be proud of your country or your heritage, but being so proud that you cannot tolerate the fact the others may have different feelings than you is when you being to cross the line.
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extender
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:53 am

From Merriam Webster:
Definition of fascism

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of

Don't see left or right. But cherry picking wiki? Someone wants to stir the pot.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:16 pm

Part and parcel to fascism is, among other things, greater governmental control over the economy and people’s lives.

This is why even the very left leaning Vox agrees that someone like Trump is not a fascist.
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1 ... -democracy

Frankly, the term “fascism” is being used more and more by people who are too lazy to actually understand and flesh out arguments against people they claim are fascist.

As to whether or not a fascist is, by definition, right leaning or left leaning, I would say that they are right leaning in terms of nationalistic pride but left leaning in terms of their view of government and the extent of its role in people’s lives and their inability to allow speech from those with differing views.
Last edited by VTKillarney on Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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c933103
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:17 pm

extender wrote:
From Merriam Webster:
Definition of fascism

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of

Don't see left or right. But cherry picking wiki? Someone wants to stir the pot.

It was the first definition aplears on my Google search result.
The labelly of left and right doesn't matter that much to me, as what is right in one place can be left in another place on earth, and the reverse is also true
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:58 pm

Arrests(?) in Portland Oregon by unidentified and unidentifiable people in unmarked vans, being transported to local law authorities and then released without any explanation or paperwork. Doesn't that remind you of SS troopers in Nazi Germany? And note, in 'stand your ground' states in what manner would it be illegal to shoot and kill such unidentified people? Beings in favor of the sort of gun laws that prevailed in Dodge City in 1900 no one but the Marshall would have a gun while in town. Law enforcement people are and should be privileged when it comes to weapons.
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seb146
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:18 pm

extender wrote:
From Merriam Webster:
Definition of fascism

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of

Don't see left or right. But cherry picking wiki? Someone wants to stir the pot.


Let's go down the list:

"A political philosophy, movement.... that exalts nation and often RACE above the individual" ALL LIVES MATTER and BLUE LIVES MATTER and "Why are they attacking my Southern heritage?"
"Centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader" look at all the "acting" heads across the government. Bypassed the Senate to be installed by dear leader
"severe economic and social regimentation" we need to take way Social Security, Medicare, food stamps, housing assistance and give everything to the very very wealthy
"forcible suppression of opposition" the unmarked "police" spiriting protesters away in Portland and demanding that every single BLM protester and every single anti MAGA protester is violent and must be silenced.
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Aesma
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:19 pm

Economic liberalism prevalent in the US isn't a right-wing feature, it's just what the current right-wing believe in. Or believed in, last time I checked Trump is all about protectionism and propping up failing industries, using the Fed to boost markets, etc., nothing to do with free markets.

As for the original question, well, there is no world government. We can criticize and even sanction countries that delve into fascism, but only their citizens can really do something about it.

The exception being EU countries, and here I agree that not enough is done, I feel all transfer money to Poland and Hungary should have been cut years ago. If they really want fascism, go for it, starting with leaving the EU.
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VTKillarney
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:20 pm

On the flip side, the Feds have been incredibly tolerant of the protests, vandalism, looting, and statue destruction. Certainly MUCH more than a genuine fascist would be. Your anecdote does not fascism make. That’s the problem with the so called anti fascists. They cherry pick an anecdote or two and ignore the much bigger picture.

Like I said, when even Vox takes issue with them, their argument isn’t compelling.
 
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:41 pm

Well the structure of the US makes it more difficult for it to delve into fascism. Trump has limited powers to act in states, unless he declares there is a civil war or something. For that to happen, he would need a majority of fanatics like him in both chambers of congress, which fortunately is far from being the case.
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VSMUT
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:41 pm

c933103 wrote:
Why anti-fascists are now focusing on individual groups who want to enhance nationalism, instead of governments around the world that actually enforce authorotarian ultranationalism with dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy?


Because 1: Influencing something in your own country is a lot easier and relevant than something happening on the other side of the world.

And 2: Fascist regimes tend to get started by nationalists.


VTKillarney wrote:
As to whether or not a fascist is, by definition, right leaning or left leaning, I would say that they are right leaning in terms of nationalistic pride but left leaning in terms of their view of government and the extent of its role in people’s lives and their inability to allow speech from those with differing views.


Not necessarily. Unlike the national socialists in Germany, the Fascists in Italy didn't have the socialist viewpoints of the German Nazi party. In terms of economics, the Italians went down the corporatist road.
 
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:44 pm

Also, Fascism is far-right by definition, sorry if that bursts your bubble or triggers you. Just like communism is far left
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:03 pm

Aesma wrote:
As for the original question, well, there is no world government. We can criticize and even sanction countries that delve into fascism, but only their citizens can really do something about it.

Is it true? Given the characteristic of fascism government as listed in various posts in these threads, what can its citizens do about it?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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Aesma
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:51 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
As for the original question, well, there is no world government. We can criticize and even sanction countries that delve into fascism, but only their citizens can really do something about it.

Is it true? Given the characteristic of fascism government as listed in various posts in these threads, what can its citizens do about it?


They can revolt.
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:56 pm

Aesma wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
As for the original question, well, there is no world government. We can criticize and even sanction countries that delve into fascism, but only their citizens can really do something about it.

Is it true? Given the characteristic of fascism government as listed in various posts in these threads, what can its citizens do about it?


They can revolt.

Is it still a realistic option in 21st century for countries with enhanced level of technology and control on those technologies?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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T54A
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:07 pm

I think so cute that neither left or right wing Americans can actually figure out which of them is actually fascist.

PS. I don’t care either way
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:39 pm

A fascist also wears pants. But Trump is not a fascist. Did you read the Vox article that I linked? It explains why Trump is not a fascist. And Vox hates Trump.
 
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:27 pm

Both the fighting terms "Nazi" and "Fascist" are part and parcel of the damnatio memoriae propaganda.

The "antifa" kids are just being abused as the claques of the City and the Wall Street.
 
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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:01 am

Antifa, while not disavowing violence, are responsible for about zero deaths. The various neo-conservative pro gun-violence are responsible for hundreds. Involuntary celibate - kill people. Unpopular at school - kill people. White nationalist - kill people. Angry old white guy - kill people. Statistically few of those categories kill people, but of people killed they are a majority.
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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:18 am

I agree that labelling Trump fascist is probably unhelpful in the whole society context.

What is true, is that a number of tactics used by Trump are very similar to tactics used in the interwar period in Italy and Germany, which concerns many aware of this history.
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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:46 am

VTKillarney wrote:
A fascist also wears pants. But Trump is not a fascist. Did you read the Vox article that I linked? It explains why Trump is not a fascist. And Vox hates Trump.


An article by some 'proclaimed' student of fascism an authority on the matter does not make him so.
It is opinion and only that.

Bill Barr, knows the law. He knows legal, illegal and questionable ambiguous manipulations of each and has fully engaged in as much.

From your article..

1)Membership in the nation was determined on a religious, ethnic, or racial basis. Alfredo Rocco, for example, one of fascism’s chief “intellectuals,” once wrote: “For Liberalism, society has no purposes other than those of the members living at a given moment. For Fascism, [the nation] has … ends … quite distinct from those of the individuals which at a given moment compose it. … For Liberalism, the individual is the end and the [nation] the means. … For Fascism, [the nation] is the end, individuals the means, and its whole life consists in using individuals as instruments for its social ends.”


How about adding a false historical non-existent past for that membership?
MAGA - Make America Great Again.

That simplistic, idiotic falsehood of his centerpiece platform is a white supremacist proclamation based on a history that only existed for a segment of America, white America.

America was never great for all of it's citizens not even a majority of them (even all whites were never unified over labor laws, unions, political extremes etc.

In trump's mind, the 'Nation's end' is the ending HE gives it. His making. His pathological state of mind is as unstable as one can be.
He knows zilch about the factual history of the American Civil War, but he selectively wields the defeated spirits of the Confederacy because he knows exactly who falls under that spell - America's dedicated racist.

He's not a fan of the facts of that war but loves the angst and division that the subject fuels almost instantly.
And because he lacks the factual understanding but loves the negative aspects and their effects..he happily wields it without shame or concern.

He is the ultimate divisive figure bar none.

2)Second, fascists shared a deep suspicion of capitalism, because it disrupted and divided national communities and destroyed national traditions. They therefore advocated a level of state intervention in the economy surpassed only by the contemporary Soviet Union. At the first Labor Day celebration held under Nazi rule in May 1933, Joseph Goebbels proclaimed:

He's business models (and yet to be seen) tax returns reflect actions of someone who hates capitalism because after his failed capitalistic endeavors he eschewed the legal options of a capitalistic venues for financing to borrow from the mob, Russians leading to enormous debt. By holding the POTUS title, the centers of Capitalistism (banking) defers (by default) to his newly acquired stature and the sudden appearance of respect for Capitalism is alive and vibrant. She he fail to secure a 2nd term, Deutsche Bank and other financial institutions will turn on him like a pack of wolves, he'll be right were he was before Nov. 2016, hating the accepted Financial centers of capitalism.

As far as Capitalistic Greed is concerned..he's all in for that part of it...and only that part, in the same ways Drug Cartels and all illegal entities horde cash as it is viewed as the necessary tool to avoid being jailed.

3)Third, fascists were deeply anti-liberal and anti-democratic. Liberalism was rejected for its promotion of individualism and individual rights, its emphasis on reason and rationality, its acceptance of pluralism, and its cosmopolitanism. As Mussolini once argued, “The man of fascism is [not merely] an individual, he is nation and fatherland.” The good life, he suggested, is one “in which the individual, through the denial of himself, through the sacrifice of his own private interests, through death itself, realized that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies.” (Self-denial and the sacrifice of self-interests are not qualities that Trump is especially known for.)

All of that is trump to the letter - no contest.
Democracy is not for him and he has no qualms about it.

4)Fourth, fascists embraced violence as a means and an end. Fascism was revolutionary: It aimed not to reform but to destroy the modern world

Look at his actions at LaFayette Square. Look at his actions in Portland today...he is not steering away from violence to achieve his aims and quest for chaos, he's bringing the gasoline for a bigger fire.

That article only amplifies the antiquated thoughts of a person still living in the era of original 'marxist, fascist, communist of limited understanding.

Those subjects have evolved, his mindset has not and it comes smoothly wrapped in the horseshit he's selling.
He's no different from the morons who have a hard time accepting that America is a socialist society. Everything from social security, medicare, welfare to military industrial complex welfare programs all fit nicely into box socialist aspirations - just dressed in a tuxedo and it looks presentable.

Hitler was indeed a fascist. trump desperately wants to ascend to that level of absolute authority.
He's told you many times how 'he wants things to unfold' ..in his image, like every other dictator past and present (Putin, Erdogan, Dueterte and Kim).

He is a fascist or at the very least doing his damnedest to get there. He'll have no other way.

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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:11 am

VTKillarney wrote:
On the flip side, the Feds have been incredibly tolerant of the protests, vandalism, looting, and statue destruction. Certainly MUCH more than a genuine fascist would be. Your anecdote does not fascism make. That’s the problem with the so called anti fascists. They cherry pick an anecdote or two and ignore the much bigger picture.

Like I said, when even Vox takes issue with them, their argument isn’t compelling.


Based on your own linked Vox article, MAGA fans and their dear leader check three of the four "fascism" boxes. It could be argued they check the fourth box of capitalism because they only care about a free market and money when it directly effects them, like "cancel culture" that MAGA fans are suddenly concerned about. Was anyone on the right really THAT invested in Goya, Aunt Jemima, or Land O Lakes before last week?

The anti-fascists are genuinely concerned over how this current administration and his admirers are treating the United States. Keep in mind that there was not "antifa" scare under GWB. Why? Because GWB did not need a scare tactic from within. GWB actually tried (weakly, IMO) to protect Muslims in America. The current administration does not care about anyone unless they agree with him. He feeds off the constant rallies. The constant admiration. The constant ego stroking. They need a boogeyman. Antifa. BLM. They need that to feed their hate.

Every damn time there are protests that even remotely smell of being against MAGA, the MAGA media IMMEDIATELY cut to the violence. No matter how small. Remember the right wing reporter who what "attacked" with a cement filled chocolate milkshake? Recall that we HAVE TO acknowledge there are but a few bad apples in the police force but the vast and huge majority of police are good? But we MUST EVERY SINGLE TIME lump all protesters with the very, very few "violent" protesters? Blame others. Shift the narrative. They don't care as long as they are protected. Or given the air of being protected.

Dear leader is playing about 20% of the population like a violin.
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BN747
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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:43 am

VTKillarney wrote:
A fascist also wears pants. But Trump is not a fascist. Did you read the Vox article that I linked? It explains why Trump is not a fascist. And Vox hates Trump.


In addition to the Four Points of Fascism by your Vox authority on fascism, add this...

Hitler was not known to be a personally 'greedy' individual.
trump on the other hand, blows away the biblical definition of greed/avarice to extremes that defy imagination.
Every one of the seven deadly sins apply him.

Hitler was more like trump's mentor Roy Cohn, a meek physical wreck of a man (similar to Napoleanic mentally for shortness) who realized that if he could use his words to do the task that lack of Dwayne 'the Rock' Johnson physique can do (intimidate people), he'll play that angle to no end, Cohn did it, Hitler did it and trump is doing it as well with a megaphone.

Although, Hitler was no money grubbing theif...he's minions - down the troops were the worst cretins on two feet.

trumps' minions? Criminals from top to bottom. Each of his wives, except Marla Maples, money grubbing gold diggers.
But his friends, his cronies and his pardoned accomplices are made of the exact same stuff - avarice unchecked 'because we can'. No ethics, no morals...just take.

Hitler probably talked himself into believing he was a living god, trump knows he isn't that and doesn't try to convince anyone that he is omnipotent or can solve every problem and has all the answers except when he is on stage infront of all his mindless followers who'll swallow every turd he drops on them. And they'll question nothing about it as they garble up any and everything he spews.

I guess he's not a cult leader either...hell Jim Jones would have killed for that kind of blind loyalty, in fact he did..but he would have loved a crowd the size of trump's cult.

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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:36 pm

How about refusing to step down after a certified election:

President Donald Trump is refusing to publicly commit to accepting the results of the upcoming White House election, recalling a similar threat he made weeks before the 2016 vote, as he scoffs at polls showing him lagging behind Democrat Joe Biden. Trump says it’s too early to make such an ironclad guarantee.

“I have to see. Look ... I have to see,” Trump told moderator Chris Wallace during a wide-ranging interview on “Fox News Sunday.” “No, I’m not going to just say yes. I’m not going to say no, and I didn’t last time either.”

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump ... 2020-07-19

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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:05 pm

Tugger wrote:
How about refusing to step down after a certified election:

President Donald Trump is refusing to publicly commit to accepting the results of the upcoming White House election, recalling a similar threat he made weeks before the 2016 vote, as he scoffs at polls showing him lagging behind Democrat Joe Biden. Trump says it’s too early to make such an ironclad guarantee.

“I have to see. Look ... I have to see,” Trump told moderator Chris Wallace during a wide-ranging interview on “Fox News Sunday.” “No, I’m not going to just say yes. I’m not going to say no, and I didn’t last time either.”

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump ... 2020-07-19

Tugg

You can't label everything uncivilized/undemocratic/unconstitutional/order-breaking as "Fascism"
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:26 pm

No, but ultra-nationalism (as in America First-ism), backing racists, authoritarian decisions, contravening legislative bodies, rewriting budgets, wholesale ordering corporations around, disrespecting and illegally contravening state governments are all signs of Fascism. It it smells, walks, and talks like Mussolini .....

.. but then unlike Mussolini he can't even make the trains run on time.
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Re: Fascism

Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:32 pm

stl07 wrote:
Also, Fascism is far-right by definition, sorry if that bursts your bubble or triggers you. Just like communism is far left


Thankfully Libertarianism falls in the middle of these two.
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Re: Fascism

Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:45 am

NIKV69 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Also, Fascism is far-right by definition, sorry if that bursts your bubble or triggers you. Just like communism is far left


Thankfully Libertarianism falls in the middle of these two.

Completely wrong.

Fascism and communism has many small differences in the details, but for all really important things they are all the same. Even the KZ- and Gulag-camps were equal.

The single dimention left-right look at politics is in this respect much too primitive to be meaningful.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Fascism

Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:26 am

The far right and the far left may better be described as sectors of a circle meeting. Putin's Russia and Xi's China are communism moved a little further around the circle to neo-fascism. Both occasionally praised by you know who.
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Agamadi
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Re: Fascism

Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:22 pm

I do not understand where exactly in Russia and China, especially in the first case, you found communism. Russia is most likely an example of modern oligarchic tyranny. China is a separate case in general.
 
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Re: Fascism

Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:45 pm

BN747 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
A fascist also wears pants. But Trump is not a fascist. Did you read the Vox article that I linked? It explains why Trump is not a fascist. And Vox hates Trump.


An article by some 'proclaimed' student of fascism an authority on the matter does not make him so.
It is opinion and only that.

Bill Barr, knows the law. He knows legal, illegal and questionable ambiguous manipulations of each and has fully engaged in as much.

From your article..

1)Membership in the nation was determined on a religious, ethnic, or racial basis. Alfredo Rocco, for example, one of fascism’s chief “intellectuals,” once wrote: “For Liberalism, society has no purposes other than those of the members living at a given moment. For Fascism, [the nation] has … ends … quite distinct from those of the individuals which at a given moment compose it. … For Liberalism, the individual is the end and the [nation] the means. … For Fascism, [the nation] is the end, individuals the means, and its whole life consists in using individuals as instruments for its social ends.”


How about adding a false historical non-existent past for that membership?
MAGA - Make America Great Again.

That simplistic, idiotic falsehood of his centerpiece platform is a white supremacist proclamation based on a history that only existed for a segment of America, white America.

America was never great for all of it's citizens not even a majority of them (even all whites were never unified over labor laws, unions, political extremes etc.

In trump's mind, the 'Nation's end' is the ending HE gives it. His making. His pathological state of mind is as unstable as one can be.
He knows zilch about the factual history of the American Civil War, but he selectively wields the defeated spirits of the Confederacy because he knows exactly who falls under that spell - America's dedicated racist.

He's not a fan of the facts of that war but loves the angst and division that the subject fuels almost instantly.
And because he lacks the factual understanding but loves the negative aspects and their effects..he happily wields it without shame or concern.

He is the ultimate divisive figure bar none.

2)Second, fascists shared a deep suspicion of capitalism, because it disrupted and divided national communities and destroyed national traditions. They therefore advocated a level of state intervention in the economy surpassed only by the contemporary Soviet Union. At the first Labor Day celebration held under Nazi rule in May 1933, Joseph Goebbels proclaimed:

He's business models (and yet to be seen) tax returns reflect actions of someone who hates capitalism because after his failed capitalistic endeavors he eschewed the legal options of a capitalistic venues for financing to borrow from the mob, Russians leading to enormous debt. https://ca.edubirdie.com/research-paper-editing-services By holding the POTUS title, the centers of Capitalistism (banking) defers (by default) to his newly acquired stature and the sudden appearance of respect for Capitalism is alive and vibrant. She he fail to secure a 2nd term, Deutsche Bank and other financial institutions will turn on him like a pack of wolves, he'll be right were he was before Nov. 2016, hating the accepted Financial centers of capitalism.

As far as Capitalistic Greed is concerned..he's all in for that part of it...and only that part, in the same ways Drug Cartels and all illegal entities horde cash as it is viewed as the necessary tool to avoid being jailed.

3)Third, fascists were deeply anti-liberal and anti-democratic. Liberalism was rejected for its promotion of individualism and individual rights, its emphasis on reason and rationality, its acceptance of pluralism, and its cosmopolitanism. As Mussolini once argued, “The man of fascism is [not merely] an individual, he is nation and fatherland.” The good life, he suggested, is one “in which the individual, through the denial of himself, through the sacrifice of his own private interests, through death itself, realized that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies.” (Self-denial and the sacrifice of self-interests are not qualities that Trump is especially known for.)

All of that is trump to the letter - no contest.
Democracy is not for him and he has no qualms about it.

4)Fourth, fascists embraced violence as a means and an end. Fascism was revolutionary: It aimed not to reform but to destroy the modern world

Look at his actions at LaFayette Square. Look at his actions in Portland today...he is not steering away from violence to achieve his aims and quest for chaos, he's bringing the gasoline for a bigger fire.

That article only amplifies the antiquated thoughts of a person still living in the era of original 'marxist, fascist, communist of limited understanding.

Those subjects have evolved, his mindset has not and it comes smoothly wrapped in the horseshit he's selling.
He's no different from the morons who have a hard time accepting that America is a socialist society. Everything from social security, medicare, welfare to military industrial complex welfare programs all fit nicely into box socialist aspirations - just dressed in a tuxedo and it looks presentable.

Hitler was indeed a fascist. trump desperately wants to ascend to that level of absolute authority.
He's told you many times how 'he wants things to unfold' ..in his image, like every other dictator past and present (Putin, Erdogan, Dueterte and Kim).

He is a fascist or at the very least doing his damnedest to get there. He'll have no other way.

BN747


I agree with you that fascists embraced violence as a means and an end. Fascism was revolutionary: It aimed not to reform but to destroy the modern world. Trump is a special case in world history, politics hundred percent, but he is not a fascist. I would rather agree with many researchers and political scientists in Western Europe who call Trump the postmodern president, who is more relevant to modern times than anyone else.
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Fascism

Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:21 pm

Agamadi wrote:
BN747 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
A fascist also wears pants. But Trump is not a fascist. Did you read the Vox article that I linked? It explains why Trump is not a fascist. And Vox hates Trump.


An article by some 'proclaimed' student of fascism an authority on the matter does not make him so.
It is opinion and only that.

Bill Barr, knows the law. He knows legal, illegal and questionable ambiguous manipulations of each and has fully engaged in as much.

From your article..

1)Membership in the nation was determined on a religious, ethnic, or racial basis. Alfredo Rocco, for example, one of fascism’s chief “intellectuals,” once wrote: “For Liberalism, society has no purposes other than those of the members living at a given moment. For Fascism, [the nation] has … ends … quite distinct from those of the individuals which at a given moment compose it. … For Liberalism, the individual is the end and the [nation] the means. … For Fascism, [the nation] is the end, individuals the means, and its whole life consists in using individuals as instruments for its social ends.”

How about adding a false historical non-existent past for that membership?
MAGA - Make America Great Again.

That simplistic, idiotic falsehood of his centerpiece platform is a white supremacist proclamation based on a history that only existed for a segment of America, white America.

America was never great for all of it's citizens not even a majority of them (even all whites were never unified over labor laws, unions, political extremes etc.

In trump's mind, the 'Nation's end' is the ending HE gives it. His making. His pathological state of mind is as unstable as one can be.
He knows zilch about the factual history of the American Civil War, but he selectively wields the defeated spirits of the Confederacy because he knows exactly who falls under that spell - America's dedicated racist.

He's not a fan of the facts of that war but loves the angst and division that the subject fuels almost instantly.
And because he lacks the factual understanding but loves the negative aspects and their effects..he happily wields it without shame or concern.

He is the ultimate divisive figure bar none.

2)Second, fascists shared a deep suspicion of capitalism, because it disrupted and divided national communities and destroyed national traditions. They therefore advocated a level of state intervention in the economy surpassed only by the contemporary Soviet Union. At the first Labor Day celebration held under Nazi rule in May 1933, Joseph Goebbels proclaimed:

He's business models (and yet to be seen) tax returns reflect actions of someone who hates capitalism because after his failed capitalistic endeavors he eschewed the legal options of a capitalistic venues for financing to borrow from the mob, Russians leading to enormous debt. https://ca.edubirdie.com/research-paper-editing-services By holding the POTUS title, the centers of Capitalistism (banking) defers (by default) to his newly acquired stature and the sudden appearance of respect for Capitalism is alive and vibrant. She he fail to secure a 2nd term, Deutsche Bank and other financial institutions will turn on him like a pack of wolves, he'll be right were he was before Nov. 2016, hating the accepted Financial centers of capitalism.

As far as Capitalistic Greed is concerned..he's all in for that part of it...and only that part, in the same ways Drug Cartels and all illegal entities horde cash as it is viewed as the necessary tool to avoid being jailed.

3)Third, fascists were deeply anti-liberal and anti-democratic. Liberalism was rejected for its promotion of individualism and individual rights, its emphasis on reason and rationality, its acceptance of pluralism, and its cosmopolitanism. As Mussolini once argued, “The man of fascism is [not merely] an individual, he is nation and fatherland.” The good life, he suggested, is one “in which the individual, through the denial of himself, through the sacrifice of his own private interests, through death itself, realized that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies.” (Self-denial and the sacrifice of self-interests are not qualities that Trump is especially known for.)

All of that is trump to the letter - no contest.
Democracy is not for him and he has no qualms about it.

4)Fourth, fascists embraced violence as a means and an end. Fascism was revolutionary: It aimed not to reform but to destroy the modern world

Look at his actions at LaFayette Square. Look at his actions in Portland today...he is not steering away from violence to achieve his aims and quest for chaos, he's bringing the gasoline for a bigger fire.

That article only amplifies the antiquated thoughts of a person still living in the era of original 'marxist, fascist, communist of limited understanding.

Those subjects have evolved, his mindset has not and it comes smoothly wrapped in the horseshit he's selling.
He's no different from the morons who have a hard time accepting that America is a socialist society. Everything from social security, medicare, welfare to military industrial complex welfare programs all fit nicely into box socialist aspirations - just dressed in a tuxedo and it looks presentable.

Hitler was indeed a fascist. trump desperately wants to ascend to that level of absolute authority.
He's told you many times how 'he wants things to unfold' ..in his image, like every other dictator past and present (Putin, Erdogan, Dueterte and Kim).

He is a fascist or at the very least doing his damnedest to get there. He'll have no other way.

BN747


I agree with you that fascists embraced violence as a means and an end. Fascism was revolutionary: It aimed not to reform but to destroy the modern world. Trump is a special case in world history, politics hundred percent, but he is not a fascist. I would rather agree with many researchers and political scientists in Western Europe who call Trump the postmodern president, who is more relevant to modern times than anyone else.


To put it bluntly, trump is no kind of student of political objectives or aims, in fact he's no kind of student on anything but how to skirt laws because he does not like them.
Law and Order for YOU ..but not for him.

Simply put..he's a desperate man who found himself in a the pinnacle of political power due to his reality tv-made popularity, which was built on complete falsehoods - he was not successful in any of business ventures other than they all successfully fell flat on their faces, except the selling of who name.

A formula very successful in Hollywood were many people will put money into an unwritten script, untitled project simply because 'Tom Hanks' is supposedly attached.

The courts are constantly clogged with people trying to get their money back after no project was ever launched and the name they paid for never materialized.
It's an everyday occurrence because so many people are 'star struck'.

trump...the very same appeal to those who aren't aware of the real details of the person behind the name.

He probably can't even spell fascism.

But his political leanings mirror fascist actions because he knows his life has been just as his father taught him, criminality...and it's catching up to him faster than he can handle it and he's very afraid of losing the power he holds now. And the end is near, the election is 100 days away.

He must do everything possible to interrupt, disrupt or stop the election he is on track to lose.

He can't suddenly be a 'uniting president; because he has cast himself in stone as a hater of everything democrat or democratic.

His too-close-for-comfort relationship with a far smarter and master manipulator, Vladimir Putin holds more sway over him than the American people and any gov't institution.
So he is merely doing as he is directed.

And Putin is happily providing him a road map.
He owes Putin a lot of money and he understands that more than all else.

So he can't turn left and the hard right is his only option...and he's taking it.

His attempt to target American cities (democratic only) and those American citizens is exactly how Hitler made his 'target' list and his moves to check them off as they are vanquished.
trump is following that pattern and doing it right to our faces.

This behavior is unseen in all of American History.

It's a complete shock to the system of all who know history and all who can spot a 'weak minded' individual with power but in a desperate situation growing more desperate with each passing day.
These domestic confrontations he so badly wants to create are likely to materialize...but not to his intended end.

Too many real patriots stand in the way and he will fall short, because most people are actually against an poorly educated man trying to pass himself as the exact opposite....all those who bought his act in 2016 are smaller in number now and he stands no chance of gaining more unless he employs what ALL Fascist have done - scare them.

It appears these mothers standing behind their kids who are in the streets protesting is a card none of his people saw coming.

I sure as hell didn't see that coming, although the fear he is trying to repeat as Nixon did in his Law and Order move of 1968 (having cops break windows and bash heads) made good scary tv (see Lawrence O'Donnells book on that subject 'Playing with Fire: The 1968 Election and the Transformation of American Politics' shows a dangerously ill-informed public of these tactics

is up against a far better informed public that sees the fear cudgel trump is waging and attempting to ramp up in as many cities as possible...will not work.

He is a fascist in the making, but by default out of fear of his own creation (law breaking) and having 100 days to change the outcome.

In that situation, a desperate man will not be reasonable...he is desperately trying change laws, methods of normality to save himself..and America's needs are secondary or further down his list of priorities.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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c933103
Topic Author
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:01 pm

BN747 wrote:
He is a fascist in the making, but by default out of fear of his own creation (law breaking) and having 100 days to change the outcome.

In that situation, a desperate man will not be reasonable...he is desperately trying change laws, methods of normality to save himself..and America's needs are secondary or further down his list of priorities.

BN747

Why fear about "fascist in the making" instead of actual fascist?
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
ItnStln
Posts: 100
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Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:04 pm

Tugger wrote:
How about refusing to step down after a certified election:

President Donald Trump is refusing to publicly commit to accepting the results of the upcoming White House election, recalling a similar threat he made weeks before the 2016 vote, as he scoffs at polls showing him lagging behind Democrat Joe Biden. Trump says it’s too early to make such an ironclad guarantee.

“I have to see. Look ... I have to see,” Trump told moderator Chris Wallace during a wide-ranging interview on “Fox News Sunday.” “No, I’m not going to just say yes. I’m not going to say no, and I didn’t last time either.”

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump ... 2020-07-19

Tugg

Thats funny considering there's those who still refuse to accept the results of the election.
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Fascism

Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:15 pm

c933103 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
He is a fascist in the making, but by default out of fear of his own creation (law breaking) and having 100 days to change the outcome.

In that situation, a desperate man will not be reasonable...he is desperately trying change laws, methods of normality to save himself..and America's needs are secondary or further down his list of priorities.

BN747

Why fear about "fascist in the making" instead of actual fascist?


Hmmm...it's like why fear an 'out of control' militia gang next town over - wait until they're in your town...thin you can turn on the fear.

Always wait til it's on your doorstep ..then panic, sounds logical.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Sokes
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Fascism

Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:23 pm

BN747 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
A fascist also wears pants. But Trump is not a fascist. Did you read the Vox article that I linked? It explains why Trump is not a fascist. And Vox hates Trump.


From your article..

1)Membership in the nation was determined on a religious, ethnic, or racial basis. Alfredo Rocco, for example, one of fascism’s chief “intellectuals,” once wrote: “For Liberalism, society has no purposes other than those of the members living at a given moment. For Fascism, [the nation] has … ends … quite distinct from those of the individuals which at a given moment compose it. … For Liberalism, the individual is the end and the [nation] the means. … For Fascism, [the nation] is the end, individuals the means
...

3)[i]Third, fascists were deeply anti-liberal and anti-democratic. Liberalism was rejected for its promotion of individualism and individual rights, its emphasis on reason and rationality, its acceptance of pluralism, and its cosmopolitanism. As Mussolini once argued, “The man of fascism is [not merely] an individual, he is nation and fatherland.” The good life, he suggested, is one “in which the individual, through the denial of himself, through the sacrifice of his own private interests, through death itself, realized that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies.”
...

4)[i]Fourth, fascists embraced violence as a means and an end. Fascism was revolutionary: It aimed not to reform but to destroy the modern world

...
BN747


I disagree with whatever you wrote about Trump. I don't think Trump is a philosophical person. And fascism is a faulty philosophy.
However with what I quoted I believe you got the main characteristics of fascism.

I want to add:
In a normal dictatorship the ruling class just want's to fill it's pocket. If one keeps quiet, they are not interested in the individual. But fascism wants to see in one's living room.

The NSDAP had a socialist economic program, but Hitler was willing to coperate with big capital. Röhm and others were killed, surprisingly the party was o. k. with it. I conclude fascists may adopt any economic program. I doubt Lenin could have sold out to capitalists. Communism is a highly economical ideology.

I believe mankind is divided into two ideological groups, collectivism versus individualism:
Vedas versus Upanisads
Confucius versus Taoism
The old versus the new testament
Romantic versus enlightenment
Communists or fascists versus liberals

In the West liberalism dominates. In India collectivism dominates. But where both groups are powerful, societies are split.
What did students in Cairo during the Arab Spring expect? Turkey is split over Erdogan, but I think at it's root it's also collectivism versus individualism. The opinion about Erdogan is however a weak one, I'm not qualified to judge.

Fascism is a bit of an extreme form of collectivism. Maybe if collectivism and economic hardship meet?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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seb146
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Re: Fascism

Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:36 pm

Sokes wrote:
Fascism is a bit of an extreme form of collectivism. Maybe if collectivism and economic hardship meet?


Isn't that what Hitler was working toward anyway? If we all work together, workers will get paid and the economy will be humming along? It seems like that is where we have been going since at least the 1980s. Maybe the 1970s. We all need to work together for the greater good of the corporations who will give us everything we need. If you need money, just get a job with one of these corporations and everything will be given to you. We are still waiting for those things we were told corporations would supply us.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
unscheduled
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Re: Fascism

Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:09 pm

In May, just days after a Minneapolis police officer killed George Floyd, Lieutenant Bob Kroll, the bellicose leader of the city’s police union, described Floyd as a violent criminal, said that the protesters who had gathered to lament his death were terrorists, and complained that they weren’t being treated more roughly by police. Kroll, who has spoken unsentimentally about being involved in three shootings himself, said that he was fighting to get the accused officers reinstated. In the following days, the Kentucky police union rallied around officers who had fatally shot an E.M.T. worker named Breonna Taylor in her home. Atlanta police staged an organized sick-out after the officers who killed Rayshard Brooks were charged. Philadelphia police sold T-shirts celebrating a fellow-cop who was caught on video clubbing a student protester with a steel baton. The list goes on.................................

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020 ... ght-reform
 
BN747
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Re: Fascism

Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:22 pm

Sokes wrote:
BN747 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
A fascist also wears pants. But Trump is not a fascist. Did you read the Vox article that I linked? It explains why Trump is not a fascist. And Vox hates Trump.


From your article..

1)Membership in the nation was determined on a religious, ethnic, or racial basis. Alfredo Rocco, for example, one of fascism’s chief “intellectuals,” once wrote: “For Liberalism, society has no purposes other than those of the members living at a given moment. For Fascism, [the nation] has … ends … quite distinct from those of the individuals which at a given moment compose it. … For Liberalism, the individual is the end and the [nation] the means. … For Fascism, [the nation] is the end, individuals the means
...

3)[i]Third, fascists were deeply anti-liberal and anti-democratic. Liberalism was rejected for its promotion of individualism and individual rights, its emphasis on reason and rationality, its acceptance of pluralism, and its cosmopolitanism. As Mussolini once argued, “The man of fascism is [not merely] an individual, he is nation and fatherland.” The good life, he suggested, is one “in which the individual, through the denial of himself, through the sacrifice of his own private interests, through death itself, realized that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies.”
...

4)[i]Fourth, fascists embraced violence as a means and an end. Fascism was revolutionary: It aimed not to reform but to destroy the modern world

...
BN747


I disagree with whatever you wrote about Trump. I don't think Trump is a philosophical person. And fascism is a faulty philosophy.
However with what I quoted I believe you got the main characteristics of fascism.


I would never call trump 'a philosophical person'..he's too stupid to select a philosophical belief, if Greed/Avarice can be classified as a philosophical position...then there you have it.

As for his Fascist trajectory, he's only doing what any cornered criminal will do..anything in his power, right or wrong, he'll do it. His aim is merely to corner the racist market (done that) and he sees how Putin, Kim, Erdogan and Dueterte are leaders who can get away with anything they want and he craves the same position - in a democratic Republic.

He doesn't care what you call it, it just wants authoritarian rule..he's made that very clear.

If anything the billing 'the accidental Fascist' fits him like a shoe.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Fascism

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:24 am

Quasi-fascist fits those establishment figures who support his excessives. Republicans should have voted on the impeachment so that it failed by one vote. Trump might have got the message.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
BN747
Posts: 7898
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Fascism

Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:39 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Quasi-fascist fits those establishment figures who support his excessives. Republicans should have voted on the impeachment so that it failed by one vote. Trump might have got the message.


Absolutely, the order of that day was Rule of Law/Democracy

or

Party above all, forget the rules and disobeying subpoenas and following rule law really don't mean anything...neither does you paltry meaningless insignificant vote.

It's easy to see the path the senators who failed the nation by voting for their interest...not yours.
And now you are benefitting from it...not in a good way.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson

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