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ArchGuy1
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Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:42 am

Last week, three Arizona teachers caught COVID-19 and one of them died. This was despite the fact that they were social distancing, washing their hands, using hand sanitizer, and wearing masks. What this means is that Arizona schools and schools in other hard hit areas may have to close for in person learning. It is also possible advanced filtration systems may have to be installed in buildings and temperature checks at all workplaces and other locations like any business banning entry with those of a fever of over 100.4 degrees Farenheit. Anyone showing COVID-19 symptoms should be isolated and businesses and workplaces should ban those showing signs of this. Social distancing may have to be expanded to 30 feet recommended distance as studies have shown COVID-19 particles can travel 27 feet. Also, all non essential businesses may have to shut down in places like Texas, Florida, Arizona, and Georgia. Voting may have to switch to electronic or by mail entirely and the hardest hit cities and states may have to be cordoned off from the rest of the country by the federal government.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html
 
afcjets
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:05 am

I think installing UV lights or similar in HVAC systems in commercial buildings is a great idea. I also think part of the reason places like Arizona, Texas, and Florida are reporting some of the highest numbers is because while covid19 might not survive in hot weather for long, people are spending more time indoors in those extremely hot states in the summer with the AC running.

As for this case, it's very sad. It's a mistake to assume though they automatically got it from each other and while doing everything possible to stay safe at work. It's possible they all contracted it somewhere else, especially since AZ is such a hotspot with a lot of people infected.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:13 am

afcjets wrote:
I think installing UV lights or similar in HVAC systems in commercial buildings is a great idea. I also think part of the reason places like Arizona, Texas, and Florida are reporting some of the highest numbers is because while covid19 might not survive in hot weather for long, people are spending more time indoors in those extremely hot states in the summer with the AC running.

As for this case, it's very sad. It's a mistake to assume though they automatically got it from each other and while doing everything possible to stay safe at work. It's possible they all contracted it somewhere else, especially since AZ is such a hotspot with a lot of people infected.

Where could they have got it from even while following all the precautions recommended.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:32 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Where could they have got it from even while following all the precautions recommended.


Maybe:
-they weren't as fastidious with the precautions as they claimed
-the recommended precautions aren't sufficient
-the virus is more robust than we thought
-they were just unlucky

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Social distancing may have to be expanded to 30 feet


You do know what a distance of 30 feet is, right?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:51 am

fr8mech wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Where could they have got it from even while following all the precautions recommended.


Maybe:
-they weren't as fastidious with the precautions as they claimed
-the recommended precautions aren't sufficient
-the virus is more robust than we thought
-they were just unlucky

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Social distancing may have to be expanded to 30 feet


You do know what a distance of 30 feet is, right?

If any of the latter three are true, it could mean a recommended distance of 30 feet. Would having to distance 30 feet mean everything being shut down again?
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:15 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
If any of the latter three are true, it could mean a recommended distance of 30 feet. Would having to distance 30 feet mean everything being shut down again?


Why don't you step off 30 feet, 9 meters, and answer that question yourself.

I was listening to podcast a while back concerning self-driving cars, and a quotation by the author being interviewed stuck with me, and is very pertinent to our current situation:

"The safer we become, the more intolerable any remaining risk appears."

Life is full of risks. The CoVid pandemic has added a very real and substantial risk into a world society that has become very risk averse.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:22 am

fr8mech wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
If any of the latter three are true, it could mean a recommended distance of 30 feet. Would having to distance 30 feet mean everything being shut down again?


Why don't you step off 30 feet, 9 meters, and answer that question yourself.

I was listening to podcast a while back concerning self-driving cars, and a quotation by the author being interviewed stuck with me, and is very pertinent to our current situation:

"The safer we become, the more intolerable any remaining risk appears."

Life is full of risks. The CoVid pandemic has added a very real and substantial risk into a world society that has become very risk averse.

30 feet of required distancing would shut just about everything down. Also, would you like to see jurisdictions start mandating temperature checks for businesses to conduct on all employees and visitors, along with denying entry to those with fevers of over 100.4 degrees Farenheit?
 
afcjets
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:51 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Where could they have got it from even while following all the precautions recommended.


They followed all the safety guidelines at work.
Perhaps they attended large or small social or family gatherings or went to restaurants, gyms, hair salons, doctor's offices, stores, etc. and weren't as safe.
Last edited by afcjets on Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:53 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
[
Also, would you like to see jurisdictions start mandating temperature checks for businesses to conduct on all employees and visitors, along with denying entry to those with fevers of over 100.4 degrees Farenheit?


No, I wouldn't.

What I'd like to see is businesses and employers take what steps they deem necessary to protect their employees and customers. The problem with wide-ranging mandates is that they don't fit every situation or circumstance.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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scbriml
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:37 am

fr8mech wrote:
The problem with wide-ranging mandates is that they don't fit every situation or circumstance.


I don't disagree and measures in sparsely populated areas vs densely populated cities could well be different, but what we've clearly seen (not just in the US) when measures are not mandated, is that idiots think their "rights and freedoms" are more important than the safety of other people.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:13 am

scbriml wrote:
I don't disagree and measures in sparsely populated areas vs densely populated cities could well be different, but what we've clearly seen (not just in the US) when measures are not mandated, is that idiots think their "rights and freedoms" are more important than the safety of other people.


Maybe it's just me, but when a person who is not used to being micro-managed is suddenly mandated to do something that is clearly outside the scope of government, especially after that same government has, through its actions, wrecked the economy, maybe they will rebel just a little.

There's a better way to do it.

Get the information out. Use the legislative process, not the executive process. Sure, executive orders at first, but they should have been followed and supplanted by legislation, with sunset provisions. People will accept those a whole lot easier than executive orders.

It should all be done at the most local level possible. People are used to their local folks throwing a little weight around. Of course, the protests that were allowed to devolve into riots damaged the credibility of several local governments.

My opinion, the federal Executive Branch needs to stay out of mandates and orders and such things. In cases like this, the Executive Branch should collect and disseminate information.

Just my opinion.

scbriml wrote:
is that idiots


And, that's another thing; do you really think it helps your (and my) position to insult people? Or to take the "virtue position"? No, it doesn't.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:48 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but when a person who is not used to being micro-managed is suddenly mandated to do something that is clearly outside the scope of government, especially after that same government has, through its actions, wrecked the economy, maybe they will rebel just a little.

Funny how the Karens and Chads protesting that they can't breathe through a mask is them rebelling against government mandate, but the people protesting that they can't breathe when a police officer places a leg on their neck or does a chokehold is insurgency. The former is protesting a mandate in the name of public health; the latter is protesting police brutality...but is seems that only the former is justified.

Speaking about the government wrecking the economy: it would have been a blip if everyone had followed orders at the same time and to the same level. With a patchwork of orders (if at all), the insistence of the virus being a hoax, downplaying the cases and deaths, and taking no action for weeks, it was a recipe for disaster. You'll likely bring up that NY, CT, and NJ failed because of all their deaths...but look at how TX and FL (two states that remained open) are fairing. Cases are skyrocketing and odds are that deaths will too.

fr8mech wrote:
Get the information out. Use the legislative process, not the executive process. Sure, executive orders at first, but they should have been followed and supplanted by legislation, with sunset provisions. People will accept those a whole lot easier than executive orders.
This contradicts the first argument you made. Executive order or law, if someone feels entitled to live as they deem worthy, without regards to public health, not even an order from God himself will compel them to follow orders.

Second: sunset provisions are good if they're not time based. Mandating a mask for 30 days and lifting the mandate after won't help. Cases will skyrocket and unless there's a trigger to snap it back into place, it's useless.

Third: even in single party states there's disagreement on how to pass legislation for this (and that's not even counting divided government states). Do you think AL's legislature will allow Ivey to pass a mandate willingly? Do you think MI's legislature will allow Whitmer to do it? Heck...look at WI and how the legislature fought all the way up to the courts to prevent Evers from enacting such a mandate. You're naive if you think all legislatures are willing to do it.

fr8mech wrote:
It should all be done at the most local level possible. People are used to their local folks throwing a little weight around. Of course, the protests that were allowed to devolve into riots damaged the credibility of several local governments.

Funny. Many localities in GA tried doing this, and Kemp passed an ordinance overruling them. And then there are the cases where localities are hotspots but they don't want to do a thing.

fr8mech wrote:
My opinion, the federal Executive Branch needs to stay out of mandates and orders and such things. In cases like this, the Executive Branch should collect and disseminate information.
I disagree. As this is a public health issue, when there is disagreement among states, it should be the federal level that has a final say. If this were something like the flu, where some regions are more affected than others, but it doesn't spread as fast, I would agree. For flu, you usually become contagious when you start showing symptoms; for covid, you may be asymptomatic and still be contagious, allowing the spread to happen undetected.

fr8mech wrote:
And, that's another thing; do you really think it helps your (and my) position to insult people? Or to take the "virtue position"? No, it doesn't.
Sometimes we have to call a spade a spade. In the words of Forrest Gump: "stupid is as stupid does". If someone doesn't want to wear a mask without any reason other than "I don't want to", then they're idiots: putting themselves and others in harm's way.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:49 am

I am always amazed that Americans, especially our elected leaders, fail to understand how Americans think.

einsteinboricua wrote:
This contradicts the first argument you made. Executive order or law, if someone feels entitled to live as they deem worthy, without regards to public health, not even an order from God himself will compel them to follow orders.


Yes, the statements are contradictory. First, executive orders are important and necessary in emergencies, because government is not nimble. It is, by nature and design, cumbersome. Executive orders cut through that. That having been said, executive orders of this nature need to be backed up by legislative action, Period. This crisis has been going on at least 4 months, and is likely to continue to go on. Americans will more readily accept the results of the legislative process than the commands of one person issuing executive orders.

einsteinboricua wrote:
Second: sunset provisions are good if they're not time based. Mandating a mask for 30 days and lifting the mandate after won't help. Cases will skyrocket and unless there's a trigger to snap it back into place, it's useless.


I don't disagree.

But, we also need to understand the nature of this pandemic. Second, third, fourth, etc. waves are to be expected until we reach the hallowed point of herd immunity or an effective vaccine is developed and distributed in suitable quantities.

I was listening to a Podcast about the development of the Polio vaccine, and didn't not realize that Polio had a "season", so to speak. It came back every summer because people tended to congregate more in the summer. So, we have been here before.

The sunset provisions need to be tied to realistic benchmarks, not just time.

einsteinboricua wrote:
hird: even in single party states there's disagreement on how to pass legislation for this (and that's not even counting divided government states). Do you think AL's legislature will allow Ivey to pass a mandate willingly? Do you think MI's legislature will allow Whitmer to do it? Heck...look at WI and how the legislature fought all the way up to the courts to prevent Evers from enacting such a mandate. You're naive if you think all legislatures are willing to do it.


You're not wrong there. But, I also have faith in our democratic process, in that democracies eventually do the right thing. It may take a while, but it happens. I'm a little idealistic in that way. Sue me.

einsteinboricua wrote:
Funny. Many localities in GA tried doing this, and Kemp passed an ordinance overruling them. And then there are the cases where localities are hotspots but they don't want to do a thing.


True, but do you think a national mandate issued by this administration would do any better? The more local the process, the better it will be received.

einsteinboricua wrote:
it should be the federal level that has a final say.


Again, it's counter to how people think. They don't like to be told by one person...and that's what a mandate would be, an executive order by the president...or some directive from an executive administration, not vetted by the legislative process, what to do. At this stage, legislatures should be handling these things, not executives.

einsteinboricua wrote:
Sometimes we have to call a spade a spade. In the words of Forrest Gump: "stupid is as stupid does". If someone doesn't want to wear a mask without any reason other than "I don't want to", then they're idiots: putting themselves and others in harm's way.


So, you'd rather be right than effective? If I started my conversation with you with "Hey, you idiot..." will you listen to anything I have to say to you? Do I even have a small chance of swaying your opinion? Of course not.

When I was teaching my daughter how to drive, I asked her if she would rather be "right and dead" or yield the right-of-way to someone who was wrong and live to drive again.

I don't really see any difference.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:13 am

fr8mech wrote:
So, you'd rather be right than effective? If I started my conversation with you with "Hey, you idiot..." will you listen to anything I have to say to you? Do I even have a small chance of swaying your opinion? Of course not.

Starting right off the bat with an insult is not gonna get you any fans, so we both agree on that. Dismissing someone and calling them an idiot as a means to validate your point is not warranted either. But saying that they're idiots for preferring to put their lives in danger over not wearing a piece of cloth for a few minutes IS, if after showing them all the evidence, they still scream about "freedoms" taken away. Maybe they're not idiots, but the behavior is idiotic (and comes back by association).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
bennett123
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:47 am

The choice seems to be face covered and distancing or lots of people on Ventilators, assuming that you have enough Ventilators.

Seems like a simple decision to make.

Problem is that there are a lot of simple people. Walking through town yesterday, 50% are either not distancing or not wearing their masks properly.

Give two examples. Bus seats marked as ‘Do not use’. Then people carrying mask rather than wear it or not covering their nose.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:32 am

fr8mech wrote:
Get the information out. Use the legislative process, not the executive process. Sure, executive orders at first, but they should have been followed and supplanted by legislation, with sunset provisions. People will accept those a whole lot easier than executive orders.


That's fine if you have lots of time, we didn't. Politicians all over have shown their inability to quickly pass legislation without either screwing it up (unintended consequences) or playing party politics (pork barrel).

What's needed is clear, decisive action from national leaders. Not confusion, or even worse, denial that there's a problem. In the UK the Government causes lots of confusion with their conflicting messages and in America we have the denier-in-chief.

fr8mech wrote:
And, that's another thing; do you really think it helps your (and my) position to insult people? Or to take the "virtue position"? No, it doesn't.


So how would you describe someone screaming into another persons face that they refuse to wear a mask because "my freedoms" in the middle of a highly contagious pandemic? Sorry, but they are idiots.
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bennett123
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:49 am

Somehow, I expect that if they get COVID they will still demand medical care.
 
marcelh
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:49 am

afcjets wrote:
.....because while covid19 might not survive in hot weather for long, people are spending more time indoors in those extremely hot states in the summer with the AC running.

This.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Three Arizona Teachers Catch COVID-19

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:08 am

scbriml wrote:
That's fine if you have lots of time, we didn't. Politicians all over have shown their inability to quickly pass legislation without either screwing it up (unintended consequences) or playing party politics (pork barrel).


Correct, that's why I said executive action was necessary. But, now we're 4 months in, with more to come. It's time for the various legislatures to take this up and codify some of those executive orders. People will accept that more readily than executive order after executive order. If some legislatures are slow to move, the people will move them.

scbriml wrote:
So how would you describe someone screaming into another persons face


Same thing. You're not going to convince a soul by yelling at them, or past them. We need to talk to each other.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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