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VTKillarney
Posts: 1954
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:43 pm

Redd wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
That's another reason I question the tipping system: the tip is not based on what the person did, but rather the value of the item they brought. How is this even accepted?

This is especially true with wine. I rarely drink, which means that I rarely order wine. In a not-so-fancy restaurant it is very easy to spend $30-$60 on a bottle of wine. You can also spend $2.50 on a Coke. The server who brings my Coke gets a tip of 50 cents. The server who brings a $45 bottle of wine gets $9. That's a pretty hefty premium for popping a cork. It's also why I rarely order wine in a restaurant. Not only is the bottle heavily marked up, but the tip adds insult to injury.


In a good restaurant the waiters spend overtime learning about wines and taking sommelier courses. They help you pick the wine by getting to know you and your tastes and preferences, make you look like you know what you're doing, they uncork the wine and pour you a tasting to see if you'll accept the wine, then pour you and your date a glass, make sure your glasses don't run dry during all of dinner. If you don't think that's worth 9 dollars, you're beyond cheap and should stick with your Coke at Denny's... lol.

You failed to notice that I said that it is very easy to spend $30-$60 on a bottle of wine in a not-so-fancy restaurant. What you described is more common in a restaurant that charges $60 and up for a bottle of wine. So let's say that I go for a middling $150 bottle of wine. Is what you described worth a $30 tip? Absolutely not.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:49 pm

Redd wrote:
In a good restaurant the waiters spend overtime learning about wines and taking sommelier courses. They help you pick the wine by getting to know you and your tastes and preferences, make you look like you know what you're doing, they uncork the wine and pour you a tasting to see if you'll accept the wine, then pour you and your date a glass, make sure your glasses don't run dry during all of dinner. If you don't think that's worth 9 dollars, you're beyond cheap and should stick with your Coke at Denny's... lol.

I'm sorry, but I agree with VTKillarney. I can justify a $9 tip at a high class restaurant because the cost of the wine is premium, just like everything else in the restaurant. In that case you're paying for the ambiance and quality, and it's expected that waitstaff is trained and well versed with wine pairings, but even then, the tip is still based on the wine price rather than the action. Pouring either a $50 bottle or a $300 bottle requires the same effort and same knowledge, so the tip eventually becomes less justified the more expensive the bottle is.

Going to a run of the mill restaurant and being brought store bought wine being marked up and tipping just for bringing 8oz glasses is not the definition of quality or ambiance. While a waiter may know enough to make a recommendation, that's usually the exception rather than the norm.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:29 pm

Redd wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Pay them properly, nobody should work a job where they require tips to bolster their income, this should not be acceptable to anyone living in a civilised society.


How much they get paid isn't any of your, or my concern. Tipping service related workers has been a standard in most of the western world for centuries. A waiter/waitress has the ability to make my night better, I've had genius career waiters that were in part responsible for me bringing a date home after dinner. You bet your ass that for making my experience better because of their service they're going to get rewarded for it.

I don't blame you for being against tipping though, if you worked as a waiter with your attitude towards emotional labour, I probably wouldn't tip you anyway.. You wouldn't tip you, that's for damn sure. :rotfl:


What do you mean most of the western world, you need to get out and see most of that western world if you think tipping is a standard in it, I'll tell you right now it isn't.

I've been a waiter in NZ, tipping is not the norm, to be tipped you have to go above and beyond and even then you'd be lucky to get 10%.

If you need a waiter to help you bring a date home after dinner you're doing something naughty or she drank too much, either way it sounds dodgy!

The tipping culture in the US is nuts, why should you tip a cab driver, hair dresser, doorman, bell hop, maid, delivery driver.........they only people tipping these kind of jobs in the rest of the western world (with the possible exception of taxi drivers) is American tourists.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:29 pm

I am surprised at how many people apparently have no ability to actually work with local customs of the places they visit. Instead so many want to force their own ideas and customs onto wherever they visit. For an international travel related website I am actually kind of disappointed. Ugly travelers indeed (and many call out "ugly Americans" for their oafishness during travel).

I get it that tipping is not universal in the world, so when I travel I do follow the customs as best as possible. I learned this after one early trip when attempting to leave one and the server was basically insulted. So I do as is the local norm (but funnily some are used to the "over tipping" of US travelers that I've had some get annoyed/dissappointed when I didn't - ah well).

VTKillarney wrote:
They are paid a living wage. I don't see this as unfair.

Wow, you are one for sure I would not put down for supporting "living wage" for work.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:38 pm

Tugger wrote:
I am surprised at how many people apparently have no ability to actually work with local customs of the places they visit. Instead so many want to force their own ideas and customs onto wherever they visit. For an international travel related website I am actually kind of disappointed. Ugly travelers indeed (and many call out "ugly Americans" for their oafishness during travel).

I get it that tipping is not universal in the world, so when I travel I do follow the customs as best as possible. I learned this after one early trip when attempting to leave one and the server was basically insulted. So I do as is the local norm (but funnily some are used to the "over tipping" of US travelers that I've had some get annoyed/dissappointed when I didn't - ah well).

VTKillarney wrote:
They are paid a living wage. I don't see this as unfair.

Wow, you are one for sure I would not put down for supporting "living wage" for work.

Tugg


It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??
 
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Tugger
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:59 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??

Great, so you are actually saying you want to emulate Americans? Act similarly when you travel?

Why?

To me the idea is to enjoy where you are traveling and be a respectful tourist. But you will of course do what you want.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:34 pm

In general, tips are quite strange, don't you think. Someone should do its job with passion and pleasantly, no need to tip for that, you don't tip the cashier at a supermarket, do you. That said, everyone should earn a decent living wage, that is a given. So that puts me in a "difficult" spot when visiting the US, they do not earn enough for a decent wage, so tipping is necessary to earn enough. On a philosophical level, it is strange as an entrepreneur to put quite a financial risk to your employees. If the food is bad, too bad employee, no extra tip - so it is quite out of your control as well.

I actually like the Japanese attitude, they are insulted if you try to tip them, they get paid to do their job.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seb146
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:43 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I am surprised at how many people apparently have no ability to actually work with local customs of the places they visit. Instead so many want to force their own ideas and customs onto wherever they visit. For an international travel related website I am actually kind of disappointed. Ugly travelers indeed (and many call out "ugly Americans" for their oafishness during travel).

I get it that tipping is not universal in the world, so when I travel I do follow the customs as best as possible. I learned this after one early trip when attempting to leave one and the server was basically insulted. So I do as is the local norm (but funnily some are used to the "over tipping" of US travelers that I've had some get annoyed/dissappointed when I didn't - ah well).

VTKillarney wrote:
They are paid a living wage. I don't see this as unfair.

Wow, you are one for sure I would not put down for supporting "living wage" for work.

Tugg


It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??


Because we don't make enough from wages alone to scrape by.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
On a philosophical level, it is strange as an entrepreneur to put quite a financial risk to your employees.

What you say makes sense, except that restaurant servers tend to disagree. Usually when there is talk about raising their wages, they object. Here is one such example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... t-want-it/

My hunch is that it has more to do with the reality that they are not claiming the entirety of their tips for taxes. Wages cannot be hidden so easily from the tax man.

Another advantage of tipping is that employees who are paid predominately in tips do not need to ask for raises. As food prices go up so do their tips.

That said, I agree with you that the Japanese model is superior. And the Japanese excel at providing professional service.
 
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mad99
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:14 pm

So are you Twitter famous or not?
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:17 pm

mad99 wrote:
So are you Twitter famous or not?

Maybe. I muted all notifications so either I'm blowing up and don't know it or it's died down. I would think the latter. People tweet then forget. It's why I don't join causes on social media.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:50 pm

[quote="einsteinboricua"] And I feel for waitstaff being stiffed. But again...that's not the only kind of job out there and there's no reason to put up with it either. And to assume the worst out of every customer is just inviting them to confirm your suspicions. For the current climate, there's no question that a tip should be given, but what I've argued as well is that the wole "give me a tip because I deserve it" mentality has existed before COVID; COVID just made it more justified and/or harder to debate.]

You take jobs, to get to a means.
obviously supply and demand play into your argument, so of course, it's harder to debate, when so many people are out of work, and don't have jobs and will take anything. even jobs paying 2.25 a hours with the hope of making minimum wage once tips are figured in. This plays into Maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid.

where some people are just trying to survive they take a job to get to the next level of the pyramid.
 
Redd
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:21 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
If you need a waiter to help you bring a date home after dinner you're doing something naughty or she drank too much, either way it sounds dodgy!
.


Don't measure other's situations by your own yardstick. Try to use some creative thinking skills to imagine how a non-creepy alternative to your narrative is possible. If you're coming up blank, it's not worth explaining.

VTKillarney wrote:
You failed to notice that I said that it is very easy to spend $30-$60 on a bottle of wine in a not-so-fancy restaurant. What you described is more common in a restaurant that charges $60 and up for a bottle of wine. So let's say that I go for a middling $150 bottle of wine. Is what you described worth a $30 tip? Absolutely not.


Is it worth it? That is completely subjective, It'd do you well to realize that. My subjective opinion is still, that if you're spending $150 for a bottle of wine and you can't tip properly, Denny's is a better place for you. :duck:

einsteinboricua wrote:
Pouring either a $50 bottle or a $300 bottle requires the same effort and same knowledge, so the tip eventually becomes less justified the more expensive the bottle is.
.


I'll give you that much, makes sense. But then again, if someone is ordering a $300 bottle, you can almost be certain that's a labour-intensive table to serve. I'm also of the opinion that if you're spending that much on dinner and wine you'll have enough to compensate the wait staff for their labour.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:38 pm

Redd wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
You failed to notice that I said that it is very easy to spend $30-$60 on a bottle of wine in a not-so-fancy restaurant. What you described is more common in a restaurant that charges $60 and up for a bottle of wine. So let's say that I go for a middling $150 bottle of wine. Is what you described worth a $30 tip? Absolutely not.


if you're spending $150 for a bottle of wine and you can't tip properly, Denny's is a better place for you. :duck:

You have mischaracterized my argument. I did not say that I am unable to afford a tip on a $150 bottle of wine. I said that the obligatory tip that one must pay on a $150 bottle of wine is not worth it.

To a degree it is subjective, but to some degree it is not. Let's take a fictitious restaurant, "Bistro Pierre." Bistro Pierre offers bottles of wine from $60 to $500. The waiter performs the same service regardless of the bottle of wine ordered. The waiter makes recommendations, opens the bottle, pours the bottle, and make sure that glasses are not empty. A person ordering a $60 bottle of wine pays a $12 tip. A person ordering a $500 bottle of wine pays a $100 tip. That is objectively a bad deal for the person who ordered the $500 bottle of wine.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:52 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Redd wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
You failed to notice that I said that it is very easy to spend $30-$60 on a bottle of wine in a not-so-fancy restaurant. What you described is more common in a restaurant that charges $60 and up for a bottle of wine. So let's say that I go for a middling $150 bottle of wine. Is what you described worth a $30 tip? Absolutely not.


if you're spending $150 for a bottle of wine and you can't tip properly, Denny's is a better place for you. :duck:

You have mischaracterized my argument. I did not say that I am unable to afford a tip on a $150 bottle of wine. I said that the obligatory tip that one must pay on a $150 bottle of wine is not worth it.

To a degree it is subjective, but to some degree it is not. Let's take a fictitious restaurant, "Bistro Pierre." Bistro Pierre offers bottles of wine from $60 to $500. The waiter performs the same service regardless of the bottle of wine ordered. The waiter makes recommendations, opens the bottle, pours the bottle, and make sure that glasses are not empty. A person ordering a $60 bottle of wine pays a $12 tip. A person ordering a $500 bottle of wine pays a $100 tip. That is objectively a bad deal for the person who ordered the $500 bottle of wine.


Especially when the same bottle of wine is available at the wine store for under 10 buck and under 60 bucks respectively.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:41 pm

Redd wrote:
I'm also of the opinion that if you're spending that much on dinner and wine you'll have enough to compensate the wait staff for their labour.

Agreed, but there's no right or wrong answer here.

Someone may go ahead and say that they'll tip for the entire bill, regardless. Someone else may say that they'll exclude the price of the wine (again, $30 or $300 bottle, the effort is the same) and base it on an average price.

And that's not even talking about whether you tip on the pre-tax or post tax total, where you'll also find strong opinions.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
sbworcs
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:38 pm

When we were visiting Florida some years ago we went to a show with Dinner. Dinner was awful, service was sloppy (staff just shoved trays of food in front of you). At the end of the evennig an announcement was made about staff being on minimum wage and the suggested tip of $10 - $15 per person in your party.

We were not happy to leave that amount but did leave a tip. Upon leaving the staff reminded us that we had not tipped the required amount - how can that be right?

Yes, tip well if service is good but don't expect an exceptional tip if it isnt.
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
NIKV69
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??


Your US loathing is old and your contempt is obvious. You are more than welcome to come here and not tip. I would hope you don't return to that establishment a second time for you would not be very welcome.
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Tugger
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:32 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??


Your US loathing is old and your contempt is obvious. You are more than welcome to come here and not tip. I would hope you don't return to that establishment a second time for you would not be very welcome.

To me it just proves the bluster of some self imagined superiority. He is no different than any American that is certain "the US way is the best way". He is the same... that is probably the reality of his issue, the quote goes: “The things we dislike most in others are the characteristics we like least in ourselves.”

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:05 pm

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I am surprised at how many people apparently have no ability to actually work with local customs of the places they visit. Instead so many want to force their own ideas and customs onto wherever they visit. For an international travel related website I am actually kind of disappointed. Ugly travelers indeed (and many call out "ugly Americans" for their oafishness during travel).

I get it that tipping is not universal in the world, so when I travel I do follow the customs as best as possible. I learned this after one early trip when attempting to leave one and the server was basically insulted. So I do as is the local norm (but funnily some are used to the "over tipping" of US travelers that I've had some get annoyed/dissappointed when I didn't - ah well).


Wow, you are one for sure I would not put down for supporting "living wage" for work.

Tugg


It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??


Because we don't make enough from wages alone to scrape by.


The age old answer to that is get a job that pays a decent wage.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:07 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??

Great, so you are actually saying you want to emulate Americans? Act similarly when you travel?

Why?

To me the idea is to enjoy where you are traveling and be a respectful tourist. But you will of course do what you want.

Tugg


If you can’t beat them join them. I point blank refuse to tip, it’s just not something I feel right about doing, so I won’t.
 
rfields5421
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:38 am

Tugger wrote:
I am fine with tipping being a part of the "wage" that the person earns directly based on their service to the customer. I know some people will skate on the tip or leave an inappropriately small one but I think the majority leave proper tips with a few "going big". I tend to be on the bigger end (20% of the bill with taxes etc.) but will go higher for what I consider to be excellent, "above-and-beyond" service but will also leave the minimum if the service is lacking (and if it is really bad I will advise management, usually without calling out the employee directly, and of course I will also tell management when a server does really well.).

I do not like/support "mandatory tips", I say earn it. I also think there should be no tip required if the wage laws have servers earning the same wage as similar other businesses that do not tip. But I don't actually prefer that, I like to see a good server getting a shot at a better wage (for better service).

Tugg


First, I'm very much against the system that allows people to be paid much less than minimum wage because 'their tips will make up the difference'. I think that is a disgusting way to value the work of human beings. Now, I do tip. It takes something extremely bad for me not to tip. Almost had an argument turn physical with a friend one time because it too so long for our food to get prepared.

That was NOT the waitress fault/ responsibility. she kept us updated, refilled coffee promptly and generally worked her butt off to do what she could.

Second, my son is one of those who thinks a dollar or two is a good tip, no matter what the check total.

I have been known to leave a 10% tip and a note that the service was far below what I consider acceptable. That I will not be back.

We eat out a few times a month with friends and a large group. A 'mandatory' 18% is fine with me. A large group (20+) at one table, or a couple tables - trying to coordinate drinks, some paying by cash, some paying by CC, trying to get the salads out correctly and such is a lot of extra work. If they do a better than normal job, I'll add a bit more cash.

Generally, I like to tip with cash. Because it is none of the restaurant or IRS business what I choose to tip. (Some places can legally vary the base pay, to adjust down if the person gets better tips than the rest of the workers. Disgusting.)

Now, we are not talking about tips for strippers at topless clubs and 'all nude' clubs. Another subject entirely.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
bennett123
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:20 am

rfields5421

Do you often visit these places.
 
Olddog
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:51 am

I also keep in mind that I probably way better income than the waiter/waitress, so it seems normal to contribute somewhat.
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Redd
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:11 am

VTKillarney wrote:
You have mischaracterized my argument. I did not say that I am unable to afford a tip on a $150 bottle of wine. I said that the obligatory tip that one must pay on a $150 bottle of wine is not worth it.
.


I was just poking fun a bit, :)
 
Okie
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:58 pm

What I have noticed is the print out of the ticket has continuously increased in the amount of recommended tip.

Customary used to be 10% with a little extra for excellent service.
Then printed on the ticket 10%=xxx,12.5%=xxx and 15%=xxx
Then it jumped to 15%, 17.5% and 20%
The other night the ticket indicated 20%, 22.5% and 25%

I have always tipped well and above but now they seem to imply that you should tip 25% for service.
I think the custom is getting a little out of hand.

Okie
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:21 pm

Okie wrote:
What I have noticed is the print out of the ticket has continuously increased in the amount of recommended tip.

That is definitely a pet peeve of mine. I've always tip 20% and felt that I was on the higher end of the spectrum since the standard tip for a LONG time was 15%. Now when I look at a suggested tip on a receipt I feel like a cheapskate.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:36 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
First, I'm very much against the system that allows people to be paid much less than minimum wage because 'their tips will make up the difference'. I think that is a disgusting way to value the work of human beings.

If you willingly take up the job, then it begs the questions as to whether you value yourself to begin with. That's no excuse for shorting people out of a tip if they provided service that meets expectations, but they shouldn't also demand it either, especially if it's something under their control.

rfields5421 wrote:
That was NOT the waitress fault/ responsibility. she kept us updated, refilled coffee promptly and generally worked her butt off to do what she could.

This is an example of what great service is; she did her part and it showed. There are some who take your order and disappear for the rest of the night, with two different waiters bringing your items, only showing up at the end to bring you a check.

rfields5421 wrote:
I have been known to leave a 10% tip and a note that the service was far below what I consider acceptable. That I will not be back.
You're far too generous. If service is REALLY bad, Ill leave less than a dollar.

Just this past Christmas I went to IHOP for breakfast; the place was empty. My waitress takes my order, but suddenly a large party came in (a family of well over 20 individuals, all being seated on the special events section on the other side of the restaurant). I didn't see her again that morning. Three different people brought my orders; a fourth one brought me the check and only because I asked for it. Meanwhile, my waitress decided to tend to that large party, not once stopping by my table to check up on me or apologize. The total came out to $19.95 IIRC. I gave her a 5 cent tip (because her name was still on the check to boot). Not like it mattered; she probably earned WAY more with that large party than she would have with me (though it would be amazing karma if that party also cheated her out of a generous tip).

I never not leave a tip, but leaving something like a penny emphasizes that I didn't forget to tip, but service was so awful it's worth less than the penny.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Tugger
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:30 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
First, I'm very much against the system that allows people to be paid much less than minimum wage because 'their tips will make up the difference'. I think that is a disgusting way to value the work of human beings. Now, I do tip. It takes something extremely bad for me not to tip. Almost had an argument turn physical with a friend one time because it too so long for our food to get prepared.

That was NOT the waitress fault/ responsibility. she kept us updated, refilled coffee promptly and generally worked her butt off to do what she could.

Second, my son is one of those who thinks a dollar or two is a good tip, no matter what the check total.

I have been known to leave a 10% tip and a note that the service was far below what I consider acceptable. That I will not be back.

We eat out a few times a month with friends and a large group. A 'mandatory' 18% is fine with me. A large group (20+) at one table, or a couple tables - trying to coordinate drinks, some paying by cash, some paying by CC, trying to get the salads out correctly and such is a lot of extra work. If they do a better than normal job, I'll add a bit more cash.

Generally, I like to tip with cash. Because it is none of the restaurant or IRS business what I choose to tip. (Some places can legally vary the base pay, to adjust down if the person gets better tips than the rest of the workers. Disgusting.)

Now, we are not talking about tips for strippers at topless clubs and 'all nude' clubs. Another subject entirely.

Sounds about right. I do not prefer an "underpaid" system but the idea that "if you serve me well, it will serve you well" appeals to me.

Okie wrote:
What I have noticed is the print out of the ticket has continuously increased in the amount of recommended tip.

Customary used to be 10% with a little extra for excellent service.
Then printed on the ticket 10%=xxx,12.5%=xxx and 15%=xxx
Then it jumped to 15%, 17.5% and 20%
The other night the ticket indicated 20%, 22.5% and 25%

I have always tipped well and above but now they seem to imply that you should tip 25% for service.
I think the custom is getting a little out of hand.

Okie

:checkmark: Absolutely agree.

Tugg
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NIKV69
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:57 pm

Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??


Your US loathing is old and your contempt is obvious. You are more than welcome to come here and not tip. I would hope you don't return to that establishment a second time for you would not be very welcome.

To me it just proves the bluster of some self imagined superiority. He is no different than any American that is certain "the US way is the best way". He is the same... that is probably the reality of his issue, the quote goes: “The things we dislike most in others are the characteristics we like least in ourselves.”

Tugg


I don't see anybody here thumping their chest saying USA is the best way. It is always thrown in there as a red herring to validate the anti US sentiment that pervades here. Even taken a step further by trying to slag Americans that try to tip outside the country. It's all good and it's just a smoke screen for not tipping.

I work in the service business and I have seen first hand the people that do the right thing and those who don't. It speaks volumes as to ones character.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:03 am

NIKV69 wrote:

I work in the service business and I have seen first hand the people that do the right thing and those who don't. It speaks volumes as to ones character.


Agreed, the character of business owners who do the right thing and pay employees a living wage in spite of not having to is a fantastic thing to see!

Fred
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:39 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

I work in the service business and I have seen first hand the people that do the right thing and those who don't. It speaks volumes as to ones character.


Agreed, the character of business owners who do the right thing and pay employees a living wage in spite of not having to is a fantastic thing to see!

Fred

And of course you agree, since you support and have good personal character, that also applies to the patrons of a business that support the employees with the tips they leave for locations where tips are an important part of wages.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:58 pm

Tugger wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

I work in the service business and I have seen first hand the people that do the right thing and those who don't. It speaks volumes as to ones character.


Agreed, the character of business owners who do the right thing and pay employees a living wage in spite of not having to is a fantastic thing to see!

Fred

And of course you agree, since you support and have good personal character, that also applies to the patrons of a business that support the employees with the tips they leave for locations where tips are an important part of wages.

Tugg

I don't agree with battery farming of hens but instead of buying eggs from caged hens and then giving money to the relevant charities I simply don't give my custom to those companies which utilise battery farming techniques.

Fred
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flipdewaf
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:01 pm

Interestingly if the tip is regarded as the additional bonus for the service then would it be fair to say that a company could not remove a member of staff based on their level of service as they aren't being paid to provide a level of service, the tips pay for that?

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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:04 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Tugger wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

Agreed, the character of business owners who do the right thing and pay employees a living wage in spite of not having to is a fantastic thing to see!

Fred

And of course you agree, since you support and have good personal character, that also applies to the patrons of a business that support the employees with the tips they leave for locations where tips are an important part of wages.

Tugg

I don't agree with battery farming of hens but instead of buying eggs from caged hens and then giving money to the relevant charities I simply don't give my custom to those companies which utilise battery farming techniques.

Fred

This makes no sense and is not related to the issue of tipping in the USA. The only way it makes sense is if you are implying you do not and would not visit the USA specifically because you do not support tipping (because all sit down restaurants have this, as do hotel for some service elements they provide etc.)?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:09 pm

Tugger wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And of course you agree, since you support and have good personal character, that also applies to the patrons of a business that support the employees with the tips they leave for locations where tips are an important part of wages.

Tugg

I don't agree with battery farming of hens but instead of buying eggs from caged hens and then giving money to the relevant charities I simply don't give my custom to those companies which utilise battery farming techniques.

Fred

This makes no sense and is not related to the issue of tipping in the USA. The only way it makes sense is if you are implying you do not and would not visit the USA specifically because you do not support tipping?

Tugg

No, if there were establishments that advertised their paying of a living wage instead of the minimum and that as a result a tip was not expected to maintain the well being of the staff then that would weigh very heavily in my decision making on which establishments would see my patronage.

Fred
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:40 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This makes no sense and is not related to the issue of tipping in the USA. The only way it makes sense is if you are implying you do not and would not visit the USA specifically because you do not support tipping?

Tugg

No, if there were establishments that advertised their paying of a living wage instead of the minimum and that as a result a tip was not expected to maintain the well being of the staff then that would weigh very heavily in my decision making on which establishments would see my patronage.

Fred

Interestingly there are several places that have tried eliminating tips, a lot are just very high priced fine dining establishments, where meals cost in the hundreds, most others just add a mandatory "service charge" to the bill (seems to average 18%-20%) and a few increased prices accommodate and higher "living wages". For the "living wage" places, quite a few found that staff would leave, especially their best servers. Tips allow people make more than just a "living wage".
https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/am ... ed-tipping
https://sf.eater.com/2015/10/14/9535081 ... -francisco
https://austin.eater.com/2017/1/6/13890 ... struggling
https://slate.com/business/2012/12/rest ... r-law.html

In California there is no carve out in state minimum wage laws to pay servers a lower wage. They receive whatever wage they earn plus tips.

I still find people are really just making excuses for not leaving tips, for not following what the local residents do and what are the norms of the society there. It is basically a form of snobbery to say "my way is better, I don't care what your customs are" (sniff). It's not like it is going to break you or anything. Everyone here can and does do it, make whatever excuse you want, the bottom line is that is all it is.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
stratosphere
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
It goes both way, American tourists have traveled with their tipping culture all over the world, they tip when it is completely unnecessary to tip, they tip for all sorts of things which local never would, so why shouldn't I bring my kiwi culture with me to the US and not tip??

Great, so you are actually saying you want to emulate Americans? Act similarly when you travel?

Why?

To me the idea is to enjoy where you are traveling and be a respectful tourist. But you will of course do what you want.

Tugg


If you can’t beat them join them. I point blank refuse to tip, it’s just not something I feel right about doing, so I won’t.


It's custom in this country to tip wait staff do I agree with it ? No I don't . I think restaurant owners get a pass on paying decent wages by relying on tips from customers so I have mixed feelings on it. However, I try to research a countries customs and norms before I travel there although it has been decades since I traveled outside the US. A lot of places in the US have been adding the tip directly to the bill which as long as they state that boldly I don't have an issue with it I did once pay a tip on top of already paying a tip that was included in the bill which I wasn't paying attention too. I waited tables in college in the early 1980's I know what it's like. If you want to set an example of people from your country being bad tippers or no tippers so be it.. That is why by the way that waiters and waitresses of all colors do not like waiting on African Americans especially in a group. They are notoriously bad tippers and also very demanding.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:12 pm

Tugger wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This makes no sense and is not related to the issue of tipping in the USA. The only way it makes sense is if you are implying you do not and would not visit the USA specifically because you do not support tipping?

Tugg

No, if there were establishments that advertised their paying of a living wage instead of the minimum and that as a result a tip was not expected to maintain the well being of the staff then that would weigh very heavily in my decision making on which establishments would see my patronage.

Fred

Interestingly there are several places that have tried eliminating tips, a lot are just very high priced fine dining establishments, where meals cost in the hundreds, most others just add a mandatory "service charge" to the bill (seems to average 18%-20%) and a few increased prices accommodate and higher "living wages". For the "living wage" places, quite a few found that staff would leave, especially their best servers. Tips allow people make more than just a "living wage".
https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/am ... ed-tipping
https://sf.eater.com/2015/10/14/9535081 ... -francisco
https://austin.eater.com/2017/1/6/13890 ... struggling
https://slate.com/business/2012/12/rest ... r-law.html

In California there is no crave out in state minimum wage laws to pay servers a lower wage. They receive whatever wage they earn plus tips.

I still find people are really just making excuses for not leaving tips, for not following what the local residents do and what are the norms of the society there. It is basically a form of snobbery to say "my way is better, I don't care what your customs are" (sniff). It's not like it is going to break you or anything. Everyone here can and does do it, make whatever excuse you want, the bottom line is that is all it is.

Tugg

I'm sure tips do allow some to make more than the living wage and indeed more than they would if tipping were not allowed but I have yet to see anywhere the suggestion of banning tipping only that the wage prior to tipping should not be lower than other industries because the rest 'Can' be made up through tipping. The links you have provided show by and large a system of Banning the tipping outright.

The Ad hominem remarks you make add nothing to the argument. I will generally tip 5-10% in the uk for good service up to a round figure normally (Meh OCD I guess) and in the US 18-22% based on the service.

In terms of adding to the service levels through tipping the best I have experienced (taking in to account price) is generally in Australia and Holland, honest, straight and authentic and as far as I remember there was minimal if any tip and my recourse was to explain to the manager the pleasant experience that the staff gave.

Fred
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Tugger
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:51 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
I'm sure tips do allow some to make more than the living wage and indeed more than they would if tipping were not allowed but I have yet to see anywhere the suggestion of banning tipping only that the wage prior to tipping should not be lower than other industries because the rest 'Can' be made up through tipping. The links you have provided show by and large a system of Banning the tipping outright.

The Ad hominem remarks you make add nothing to the argument. I will generally tip 5-10% in the uk for good service up to a round figure normally (Meh OCD I guess) and in the US 18-22% based on the service.

In terms of adding to the service levels through tipping the best I have experienced (taking in to account price) is generally in Australia and Holland, honest, straight and authentic and as far as I remember there was minimal if any tip and my recourse was to explain to the manager the pleasant experience that the staff gave.

Fred

Sounds fair, and I do understand what you are saying.

To continue "ad hominem", it is obvious you do have character and do as needed for the areas you are visiting. My comment wasn't intended "for you only" I was responding to the argument you appeared to be making. Others have said "I won't, period." which to me, after thinking about it in this thread, just becomes what I described. An excuse to cheap out and nothing more. Why would a visitor to the US decide the person working their table does not deserve to earn a fair wage? That is what it is here in the USA, this is how server get paid and earn a "living wage". I get it that it may not be the best system, but it is the process for server wages here in the USA. I am comfortable with it and used to it because I grew up here. I like being able to contribute to the person helping me. I guess it a form of 'micro-employment", I have employed them for the time of my meal. This is my normal.

It is honestly kinda uncomfortable for me to NOT be able to "leave a tip" in the places I visit where that is not part of the culture. I feel like a cheap SOB sometimes. And funnily enough, with the higher prices I pay for overseas eateries, it feels like the restaurant owner is the one making obscene profits and the worker is getting the shaft. I am THAT used to being able to reward a server for excellent service. So that is my ad hominem towards me. I get that the prices are higher due to paying a "living wage" (is it really?) but that is not necessarily what I see and feel. And yes, I do as you do and will let the managers know of very good service.

Anyway, thanks for a good discussion!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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par13del
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:14 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
To a degree it is subjective, but to some degree it is not. Let's take a fictitious restaurant, "Bistro Pierre." Bistro Pierre offers bottles of wine from $60 to $500. The waiter performs the same service regardless of the bottle of wine ordered. The waiter makes recommendations, opens the bottle, pours the bottle, and make sure that glasses are not empty. A person ordering a $60 bottle of wine pays a $12 tip. A person ordering a $500 bottle of wine pays a $100 tip. That is objectively a bad deal for the person who ordered the $500 bottle of wine.

Funny thing, this is the same type issue folks use to say progressive tax rates are required over flat rates to ensure that rich people pay their fair share...go figure.
 
rfields5421
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:05 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
rfields5421 wrote:
First, I'm very much against the system that allows people to be paid much less than minimum wage because 'their tips will make up the difference'. I think that is a disgusting way to value the work of human beings.

If you willingly take up the job, then it begs the questions as to whether you value yourself to begin with.


I strongly disagree.

The system has been institutionalized and standardized across the entire United States, and likely much of the world. Not everyone has choices for a wide range of jobs, or opportunities.

Now many people do make a very good living. Knew one fellow who worked in high-end restaurants in the Dallas area that netted over 75K per year in the 1990s. He was recruited to come to the restaurant of an internationally famous chef. When he came there, he brought his bus boy (actually a female), his wine steward and his assistant waiter. His average tip ran upwards of $250. But even then, his base pay was $3.75 per hour.

My own granddaughter averages $700 per week, with a base salary of $4.25 per hour.. When COVID hit, she wasn't working due to a medical issues. The other people staff saw their gross drop below $200 per week before the restaurant closed. Because they were 'working' they could not receive any of the compensation for workers with reduced hours and salaries.

But even with tips, across the country, especially in areas without a highly competitive, active restaurant trade, servers struggle to maintain an average income of minimum wage week after week. And it is hard physical labor. Not sitting around in front of a computer.
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:13 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
But even with tips, across the country, especially in areas without a highly competitive, active restaurant trade, servers struggle to maintain an average income of minimum wage week after week. And it is hard physical labor. Not sitting around in front of a computer.

You say you disagree, but then say this. I don't agree with how the current system is set up but I know my worth and I would only work as a waiter to net extra cash, not to make it my main source of income.

If you subject yourself to being a server and make it your main job, then you like the struggle or don't know your worth. I'd rather earn minimum wage at some other job; at least the income should be steady no matter what.
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casinterest
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:59 pm

Cash or Credit for Tips?

I always feel guilty leaving them on the card as they are taxed, but i get points :)
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andz
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:45 pm

sbworcs wrote:
Upon leaving the staff reminded us that we had not tipped


On my first ever trip to the US in 1987 I stayed at a Doubletree hotel in Houston.

The waiter at breakfast was pathetic, I had to ask him several times more than once for things such as a clean glass, milk for my tea etc.

When I signed the bill and walked out he followed me into the lobby and said that a tip wasn't included. I told him that I tip for good service and his was rubbish.

He got right in my face and the concierge had to take him back to the restaurant. Needless to say I didn't have breakfast for the rest of my stay, you never know what goes on in the kitchen when you annoy the waiter.

Another time here in South Africa I learned to read the bill carefully. I was at a conference and took some colleagues and customers for dinner, 11 people in total. The bill arrived and the waitress had been good so I added 15% tip to the bill (average here is 10%).

Later when I was reconciling my expenses I saw hidden among the wines on the bill was a 15% service charge, contributing to the total that I had added my tip onto.

If restaurants want to add a service charge to large parties that's fine, but don't hide it in the body of the bill, that's theft.
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:47 pm

casinterest wrote:
Cash or Credit for Tips?

I always feel guilty leaving them on the card as they are taxed, but i get points :)


Cash is such a pain. I very rarely actually have cash on me and the pandemic has certainly had a big impact in the UK where lots of shops now only accept contactless payment via card or phone. Looking back through to January this year, I've never withdrawn more than £30 cash in a calendar month.
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:51 pm

I have worked previously in tipped positions and went out of my way to earn the damn good money that usually rolled in at the time.

Nowadays - it's a different ballgame as your typical chain restaurants have become an abortion of 3-for-$10 menus. In speaking with people in the business, it's pretty straight forward - let's take Chili's for example - 3-for-$10 gets you a drink, chips & salsa and chicken fingers and fries. This turns into the customers wanting 10 refills plus 5 more to go, a barrel of chips and salsa and they want to sub out a ribeye for chicken fingers. Yet, in the "we have to be as dumb as possible and cater to this bullshit" that chains have created for themselves - these $10 chasers who may be tip $1 or $2 -- get all this handed to them if they raise a complaint.

Hence why I try to avoid chain restaurants as much as I can and stick to locally owned joints.

I don't mind tipping and I don't mind tossing in a couple of extra bucks above most people. However, when it comes to hidden surcharges that are a bit ludicrous - for example, I don't mind paying for an extra side of ranch for say chicken wings but not telling me it's $2 gets my attention when the bill comes. I don't mind throwing in extra for a premium bottle of wine - but sell me on it. Make it an experience.

What gets me about tipping is the positions that go out of their way to get a tip on and for everything. Such as a coat check. You're charging me $5 to hang up a coat. Then you want me to put $2 in your jar for handing me my coat off of a hanger? Get real.

At places such as a coffee shop or what have you - if it's a straight forward order - sometimes I put a buck in the jar and sometimes I don't. If I say -- "I'm up for something different - this is what I like - hit me!" - and they do - then yes, I absolutely do it then.
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Olddog
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:57 pm

Here tips is usually cash because with cards you never know who keep the tip at the end.
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NIKV69
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Re: Tips: for or against?

Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:08 pm

Olddog wrote:
Here tips is usually cash because with cards you never know who keep the tip at the end.


Yep I always tip in cash to the person who performed the service.
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